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#'''Support''' without a doubt one of the best people here. ] 07:20, 9 July 2007 (UTC) #'''Support''' without a doubt one of the best people here. ] 07:20, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''' One of the most experienced, dedicated, reasonable, and fair-minded editors on Misplaced Pages, easily. I've known him since 2000, and he's one of the few people I've known that long who I've never once seen lose his temper, make stupid or hasty decisions, or abandon the insane level of commitment he has made to projects like Misplaced Pages. He's a goddamn machine. If you're not going to make full use of him, you have a duty to disassemble him and put all his spare parts to good use. :E -] 08:17, 9 July 2007 (UTC) #'''Support''' One of the most experienced, dedicated, reasonable, and fair-minded editors on Misplaced Pages, easily. I've known him since 2000, and he's one of the few people I've known that long who I've never once seen lose his temper, make stupid or hasty decisions, or abandon the insane level of commitment he has made to projects like Misplaced Pages. He's a goddamn machine. If you're not going to make full use of him, you have a duty to disassemble him and put all his spare parts to good use. :E -] 08:17, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
#'''Support''' So much has been made of Andrevan's brief exposition on the nature of the consensus mechanism we use here at Misplaced Pages. I don't see why this is seen as dangerous. "Oh no! He's trying to expand the bureacratic powers!" I think that that's much too alarmist and paranoid a conclusion. Thinking about these sorts of things is a good sign, not a bad one. Andrevan here has been patrolling the mean streets of Misplaced Pages for years, armed (seemingly, for this is all he uses most of the time) only with a cool collected spirit and reasoned, calm arguments. If anybody could help Misplaced Pages more as a bureacrat it's Andrevan here. ] ] 08:27, 9 July 2007 (UTC)


'''Oppose''' '''Oppose'''

Revision as of 08:27, 9 July 2007

Andrevan

Voice your opinion (talk page) (47/8/2); Scheduled to end 00:28, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Andrevan (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) - Since my query on the talk page may have led somewhat to the current deluge of qualified bureaucrat nominations, I feel it would be bad form to not at least subject myself to the same scrutiny. :)

I have been a Misplaced Pages editor since June 2003 with over 11,000 edits, an administrator since September 2004 with a fairly uncontroversial tenure, and also an administrator over at Meta since May 2006. I nominated myself for bureaucrat twice, once in November 2004 when I was still a fairly new administrator, and again in September 2005 when I had some more time and experience under my belt.

It's been a while, but I think the time is right for a third (and final, I'd say, regardless of outcome) nomination.

With the exception of writing and editing the actual articles of our encyclopedia, the Requests for Adminship page has probably been where I've spent the largest chunk of my time and effort here on Misplaced Pages. From my own admin nomination, to the probably hundreds of other nominations (bureaucrat and admin alike) I've !voted on, to the several admin candidates I have myself (successfully) nominated, and of course to my bureaucrat nominations, I have had a great deal of time to contemplate that concept so important to our encyclopedia and its social structure: consensus.

What is consensus?

It's a thing almost zen-like in its simplicity and simultaneous complexity. Misplaced Pages:Consensus can explain it, but that doesn't really do it justice, or quite describe what we do here on Requests for Adminship. Actually, I'd rather take a look at the article in the mainspace called Consensus.

Consensus has two common meanings. One is a general agreement among the members of a given group or community, each of which exercises some discretion in decision making and follow-up action. The other is as a theory and practice of getting such agreements.

Obviously this doesn't describe our process either, but it makes it easier to see what the whole consensus system is about: agreement. A bureaucrat's job is to figure out if the community, or that subset of the community that has weighed in on the page in question, generally agrees that something is a good idea. That something, being, of course, promotion of admins or other bureaucrats. Bureaucrats are merely executors of community will. A good bureaucrat must keep up with the talk pages and side discussions to keep in touch with the pulse of the community and its wishes.

What about the numbers, the percentages, all that pseudo-voting mumbo jumbo? Well, the numbers are confusing to some, but basically they represent the quantitative aspect of the promotion process. They are a rule of thumb to judge the level of agreement. 80% is just a jumping-off point to demonstrate the level of acceptance needed, but consensus is not contingent necessarily on numeric percentage. A bot can't say, "77% of editors expressed their support, but everyone generally agrees that so-and-so is qualified, and oppose comments were fairly noncommittal, so I will promote." The human element is needed for this sort of analysis. This is the job of a bureaucrat.

Is consensus the best system for selecting adminstrators? I don't know. Does it work? Yes. It needs to scale with the project, however. As Misplaced Pages grows larger, we need more trusted executors of community will to keep the system running smoothly. With several bureaucrat nominations on this page now, I think we're working toward that. I urge anyone willing and qualified to put forth a nomination as well.

None of this discussion is new, of course. In my past nominations, I understood the workings of the consensus system, and I would have made the proper promotions. However, since then my understanding of consensus has been enhanced. Before I knew about consensus, but now I feel that I grok consensus, and that is why I am again putting forth my nomination for bureaucrat.


Questions for the candidate

Dear candidate, thank you for offering to serve Misplaced Pages as a Bureaucrat. You may wish to answer the following optional questions to provide guidance for participants:

1. Have you read the discussions on when to promote and not promote? What do you understand the criteria for promotion to be?
A. Consensus. I would request that you read my statement above, as I've discussed this quite a bit. If someone needs further clarification or explanation, I would ask him or her to please go ahead and post an additional question or a comment.
2. How would you deal with contentious nominations where a decision to promote or not promote might be criticized?
A. Contentious nominations are just nominations, after all. If consensus exists, I will promote. If it does not exist, I will not promote. If the case is borderline, I will ask another bureaucrat for a second opinion, suggest a brief extension, or bite the bullet and figure out whether consensus exists.
3. Wikipedians expect bureaucrats to adhere to high standards of fairness, knowledge of policy and the ability to engage others in the community. Why do you feel you meet those standards?
A. I think my record of contributions speaks for itself, but I would be glad to respond to any specific remarks.
4. Do you have the time and do you have the desire to visit WP:RFA, WP:B/RFA, and/or WP:CHU on a regular basis to attend to those requests?
A. Desire, certainly. My time to spend on the project varies, but in general, yes. I'd be glad to fill everyone in on my plans for the next year or so in terms of time to devote to the project, but suffice it to say I will have plenty of free time.
5. What about the issues raised on your last nomination? (Added by me)
A. Last time around, the oppose !votes felt that a) I did not explain myself enough when I was afraid of hurting others' feelings, and b) I posted notices on others' talk pages informing them of my bureaucrat nomination. I have certainly kept these criticisms in mind since that time, and I have grown as a person and as a contributor. I feel that I have addressed the first concern in my editing. As for informing users of the nomination, there are a number of users in User:Andrevan/Archive14 who expressed a wish to be notified of any further bureaucrat nominations. I do not really know what to do in this case, so I am going to wait and see what comments on this page say about the matter (hint, hint). I will however, place {{Rfb-notice}} on my user page, as this is according to the directions definitely allowed.

Optional question by DarkFalls

6. What is your opinion on the use of a vote tally on a RFA or RFB?
A You mean, the little bit of text that says (13/0/1)? I think it's useful as a thermometer of sorts of nominations, and removing it would be kind of pointless because anyone can just count up the !votes themselves. Andre (talk) 05:44, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Optional question from GDonato (talk)

7. You appear to be less active as an administrator than other users who have been considered for bureaucratship. Do you believe you would be active enough as a 'crat to justify giving you such a sought-after and important role and what is your opinion on the current number of inactive 'crats?
A Misplaced Pages is just a hobby (albeit a very interesting and important one), and I do have a busy real life. That said, I've never actually left Misplaced Pages for an extended period, unlike many admins and bureaucrats. I think I would be quite a bit more active than the current set of "dormant" bureaucrats, and do my part. Andre (talk) 11:52, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Question from Walton:

8. Given that Danny's RfA closed at only 68% support, with over 100 good-faith opposes from established users, do you believe it was right for him to be promoted? I'm not asking for an opinion on Danny himself, but on the bureaucrats' closure of that RfA, which ignored 100 people's opinions given in good faith. Walton 14:11, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
A I believe that the Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/Danny/Bureaucrat chat page shows a lot of thoughtful, reasoned discussion. Were I a bureaucrat during the nomination, discussing on that page, I would have agreed with Taxman and Warofdreams that consensus didn't really exist to promote. That said, I do not think it was wrong for him to be promoted, in keeping with WP:IAR, WP:BOLD, Danny's standing as a contributor (and UninvitedCompany's comment that he could probably just have asked for it back), and the important maxim that adminship is no big deal. Although I personally would not have acted to promote, I accept the decision that was made, like the bureaucrats on that page and I think the community at large. I don't see how having a user like Danny as an administrator could cause harm to the encyclopedia. Andre (talk) 21:51, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Andrevan, with respect for your reasoned response, WP:IAR and WP:BOLD do not really deal with the realities of a lot of Misplaced Pages. Though User:Jimbo swears by it as a founding principle of Misplaced Pages, he sometimes doesn't agree with it himself. I recall when he affirmed the 3RR rule as important. I can think of all kinds of good reasons to break 3RR in good faith, but try breaking it in good faith and see where it lands you. What I'm saying is that, at times, WP:IAR is the greatest piece of crap. If we all have the option to "Ignore All Rules," than the rules should not be made in the first place. Wikipedians want their bureaucrats to be trustworthy, even when they disagree with the result. WP:IAR is the last excuse I would ever want a bureaucrat to use in closing an RfA or RfB. -- Cecropia 22:56, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
IAR has an important meaning to me, which is: if what you're doing is definitely the right thing for improving the encyclopedia, but is contrary to the letter of the rule which governs it, do it anyway. That is how I feel Rdsmith4 acted in the Danny nomination, and why I support and accept his decision even though I do not agree consensus existed. I'm certainly not saying I would use IAR as an excuse to promote.
Anyway, we could debate IAR for a long time, but I think the concept of IAR is not really related to the question that Walton asked. It deals with the Danny nomination, and my view on that in a nutshell is: "I don't feel consensus existed, but the promotion was in-line with Misplaced Pages's core principles of working for the good of the encyclopedia regardless of what the rules say."
In other words, I would not have made the same call that Rdsmith4 did, but I respect it.
Side note: There are plenty of good faith ways to break 3RR! See WP:3RR#Exceptions.
(Another side note: These bits on separate lines were added one at a time, see the page history. I figured it didn't make sense to sign 5 times.)
Andre (talk) 23:02, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
There have been a number of other cases besides Danny where an administrator wass approved with less than 70% support. In at least a couple of these cases, the oppose votes, while outnumbered about 2:1, were quite vociferous in their lack of trust for the candidate. Do you think that IAR was well-applied to these cases? User:Argyriou (talk) 19:42, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
I would need to see/know specifics, but in general probably no. The Danny nomination was a special case. Andre (talk) 20:37, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Question from Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:08, 5 July 2007 (UTC):

10. In the past, I have noted a concept in the WT:RFA archives somewhere about "scientific scaling" of RfAs in that(here), in general, it would seem that the community thinks an individual member may have different personal standards as to what they expect of a candidate, but that it would be preferable that a given person treats candidates consistently with their standards. In some cases, there are often mutterings about people moving the bar lower because they are friends with a given candidate or conversely some people can suddenly raise the bar for some guy that they don't like. People are always grumbling about RfAs being popularity contests and so forth. How would you deal with a case, for instance, where some person perhaps got 80-85% in raw numbers, but this occurred because a group of people went soft on them for some reason (eg when some person only made 800 article edits and/or only wrote 1 stub or had only been around for 2 months - but some people who have soft spot waived their usual requirements for 2000 edits, multiple non stubs, 5 months etc etc,). Conversely, what would you do if they were below the grey zone, but had a whole group of people who suddenly used uncharacteristically high standards (eg when they oppose citing less common reasons, or selectively quoting 1FA or lack of article writing or vandal fighting, when they usually support people at a much lower bar) - This could be because the people are either "under-rated" and "unfashionable" as well as rank undisguised retaliation against an argument somewhere. What is your opinion on calibrating the opinions in such grey cases with unusual supports/oppositions? Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:08, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
A I don't think users' usual standards have any direct effect on the consensus. If generally users seem to agree with something that isn't what they have historically agreed with, it's really not my role to say, "But that's not what you thought last RfA, be more consistent." Users may oppose or support for any reasons they wish (as long as they are not false or otherwise invalid), and those reasons can be as nitpicky or as forgiving as they want. (That said, I do think there is a phenomenon whereby other users take their cues from earlier votes. For example User A supports because he is impressed that the candidate got User B to support despite his usual high standards, or something. So in a way the scaling you describe does occur, absent of bureaucrat intervention.) As far as popularity contests, "it's not what you know, but who you know" sometimes in life, and we're just going to have to assume good faith and roll with it. Generally I think Misplaced Pages is a mature community, and editors don't just oppose or support for petty personal reasons. When it comes to outright retaliation ("You !voted to delete my article so I'm opposing your adminship"), those sorts of comments are weighed lower than legitimate concerns. Andre (talk) 04:05, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Question from Voice-of-All

11. What do you think of User:Voice of All/Consensus? Voice-of-All 03:14, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
A It raises a few important issues, many of which I agree with, although there seems to be sort of a skew toward AfD discussions. Homogeneity is definitely something to take into account when evaluating RfA consensus. Lots of opposes citing the same concern carry a little more weight than less unified, individual opposes. In the case of last minute information (although I certainly think this applies more to AfDs) an extension might be merited. I also agree that if a comment is simply untrue factually, and this has been made clear on the nomination, it is weighed less. Again, more for AfDs, but valuable thoughts. Did you have a more specific aspect that you'd like me to comment on? Andre (talk) 04:05, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Well it was mainly about consensus in general, not RfAs, so some stuff may not apply as much here. My main issue though, it with the balance between the RfA and relevant consensus (or majority), and the opinions of the crats themselves. Voice-of-All 04:15, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
I think I've made clear that bureaucrats' purpose is to carry out the collective community will. Individual bureaucrats' opinions of users are irrelevant; indeed, voting on an RfA AND closing it is unacceptable for a bureaucrat, as it is a conflict of interest. Andre (talk) 04:26, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Optional (hypothetical) Question from Anonymous Dissident

12. – Hypothetical situation: An RFA is ready for closure. It has 71% support, and 29% oppose. You know the candidate, and both like them as a person, and believe they would make a good admin. All things considered, what would you do as a crat in this situation of RFA closure?
A: All things really can't be considered in a case like that, as I have no access to support and oppose arguments. It doesn't matter what I think about the candidate. Andre (talk) 21:13, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
Thats close to exactly the answer I was looking for. As I said on Ral's RFB, this question was deliberately vague, and you have picked that up, as well as noting that what you think doesnt matter. Cheers, -- Anonymous Dissident 21:17, 6 July 2007 (UTC)


General comments

Please keep criticism constructive and polite.

Discussion

Support

  1. Support - yep, this user looks good to me. I'd like to see him use the extra tools. I wish him luck on his 3rd RFB nom. Anonymous Dissident 01:50, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
  2. Support Lots of experience, he could use the tools. —« ANIMUM » 01:52, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
  3. Eeks, has it really been so long since the last nomination? Couldn't make up my mind then, but of the four candidates here, Andre is the only one I can support without reservations. I am very happy with his statement about consensus, and, of course, he's been here forever and has the trust of the community. Dmcdevit·t 02:04, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
  4. Very strong support why not? I've done this on the other three. Acalamari 02:27, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
  5. Very strong support- the same reasoning as Dmcdevit. No reservations. Keegan 02:32, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
  6. Support. A well presented nomination, and I see no reason to oppose. - Zeibura 02:54, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
  7. Support Obviously qualified.--Húsönd 02:55, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
  8. Strong Support- I am very impressed by his statement about consensus, which I totally agree with. He's a great user and will make a great bureaucrat. Eddie 03:11, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
  9. Support Thoughtful communicator who understands consensus. I trust Andre and believe he will be a great bureaucrat. Flyguy649contribs 03:38, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
  10. Support A non-controversial admin who's willing to help out with the boring task of renames. Seems good enough for me :-) ~ Wikihermit 03:53, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
  11. Support Andrevan seems to be the sort that will make a fine bureaucrat. Captain panda 04:21, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
  12. Support we need more crats and Andrevan seems to have more than enough experience. DarthGriz98 04:54, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
  13. Support. — Deckiller 05:11, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
  14. No reason not to promote... --Dark Falls 05:49, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
  15. Support. Plenty of experience and rarely goes rogue from my experiences. On top of that, as stated, he seems to be someone who will do the boring, mundane crap. - A Link to the Past (talk) 06:28, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
  16. Support. Are they giving peanuts this week or something? It is the only reason why there are some many Requests for Barbequeing this week... anyways, back on topic. I've seen Andrevan around , and I haven't seen any issues to make me pause. While this has been the third RfB for him, the previous ones were a long (and I do mean long) time ago ago, so they can't be held against him. Overall, there are reasons to support, and no reasons to oppose. Titoxd 07:15, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
  17. Support. Nearly three years ago you welcomed me to Misplaced Pages. Thank you. You're an exemplary contributer and will make a fine bcrat. Feezo (Talk) 07:38, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
  18. Support — More bureaucrats are needed. This user appears trustable. Matthew 08:33, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
  19. Good self-nom, looks well-qualified. Moreschi 09:45, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
  20. Andre's shown dedication to the project, and would be a fine crat. Ral315 » 13:34, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
  21. Support (Bureaucracy for everyone!) Bucketsofg 13:56, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
  22. Support - I like your personal statement and general answer to the questions - it is good to see you have learnt the lessons of your previous RFB. I think you would make a good bureaucrat and have the right attitude and experience for the position. Camaron1 | Chris 14:13, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
  23. Support - A very experienced Editor and administrator..I doubt it that he will abuse the tool and we can't emphasize enough that we need a few more good Bureaucrats...--Cometstyles 14:16, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
  24. A bit impatient sometimes but looking in retrospect he is a competent sysop and an asset for the encyclopedia. — Nearly Headless Nick {C} 14:18, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
  25. Support I don't have the same "name recognition" of Andre as for the other candidates, but I like his essay about consensus and I believe that he does "grok" it. Shalom 15:03, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
  26. Terence 15:06, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
  27. Support, no reason not to. Neil ╦ 15:31, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
  28. Support why not? we need more crats Black Harry • Happy Independence Day 16:18, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
  29. Support I've never met Andre, but he seems like a fine and reliable fellow. —Anas 17:07, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
  30. Support Trusted user with firm understanding of the RFA process. Borisblue 18:10, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
  31. A little inactive with the tools, yea, but he been in the project for about three years already, and a admin for over two years, and I trust him on reading consensus in RFB. Thanks Jaranda 18:32, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
  32. Support We need more bureaucrats, and he will certainly do. EdJohnston 19:01, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
  33. Support. I absolutely trust Andre, and I speak from my own experience. All the best! Phaedriel - 19:16, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
  34. Support; yep. A very fine candidate for this job. First bumped into Andre three years ago, and he's still every bit as sensible now as he was then. Antandrus (talk) 19:45, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
  35. Support A very rare support vote for crat.--MONGO 21:08, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
  36. Support - Misplaced Pages needs more bureaucrats. Turning down a trustworthy, qualified volunteer would be insane. -- Schneelocke 22:51, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
  37. Support. Your questions satisfy me, and since you're before my time, i can safely assume you know wikipedia well. Wizardman 23:49, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
  38. Support. Seems like a person who will act wisely. -- DS1953 00:18, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
  39. I hereby declare my approval for my soon-to-be CMU comrade! Scobell302 01:14, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
  40. Certainly been around for long enough to know what he's doing. ~ Riana ⁂ 01:18, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
  41. Support Will be a good bureaucrat. --Banana 01:26, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
  42. Support OK, probed around enough, looks good to me. Voice-of-All 04:42, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
  43. Support It is time to give him the additional tools. --Siva1979 04:53, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
  44. Support per nom statement and answers to questions. Mike Christie (talk) 14:06, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
  45. Support yeah ~ Infrangible 04:03, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
  46. Support without a doubt one of the best people here. Tony the Marine 07:20, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
  47. Support One of the most experienced, dedicated, reasonable, and fair-minded editors on Misplaced Pages, easily. I've known him since 2000, and he's one of the few people I've known that long who I've never once seen lose his temper, make stupid or hasty decisions, or abandon the insane level of commitment he has made to projects like Misplaced Pages. He's a goddamn machine. If you're not going to make full use of him, you have a duty to disassemble him and put all his spare parts to good use. :E -Silence 08:17, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
  48. Support So much has been made of Andrevan's brief exposition on the nature of the consensus mechanism we use here at Misplaced Pages. I don't see why this is seen as dangerous. "Oh no! He's trying to expand the bureacratic powers!" I think that that's much too alarmist and paranoid a conclusion. Thinking about these sorts of things is a good sign, not a bad one. Andrevan here has been patrolling the mean streets of Misplaced Pages for years, armed (seemingly, for this is all he uses most of the time) only with a cool collected spirit and reasoned, calm arguments. If anybody could help Misplaced Pages more as a bureacrat it's Andrevan here. D. G. 08:27, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Oppose

Sorry, but Oppose. You're going to hate the reasoning, but the truth is we don't need another 'crat to close RFAs. Of the three 'crat task, this one is always done on time. ~ Wikihermit 02:19, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
See your point Wikihermit, but you are slightly wrong -- its not always on time. I do see your point though. --Anonymous Dissident 02:20, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
I would like to help with changing usernames and bot flags as well, but those processes don't require as much explanation, so I sort of glossed over them. :) Andre (talk) 02:43, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Oppose With great respect for a wiki-veteran, I'm left a little uneasy about the candidate's "zen philosophy" of consensus. I can't call it inaccurate: heck, not being able to "call it" anything is part of its zen character, I suppose. ;) Still, especially given that there are other fine candidates stepping forward about whom I am certain, the lack of clarity (as expressed to the outside world, anyway) inherent in the candidate's stand leaves me wanting more. One might call this a "zen" oppose, in fairness. Xoloz 03:26, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
If you're wanting more, fire away! I can answer questions to clarify my stance, so long as they are not ";What is the sound of one hand clapping?" Andre (talk) 03:33, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Issues have been clarified sufficiently such that I withdraw my oppose. No comment, otherwise, for now. Xoloz 04:48, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
  1. Oppose, reluctantly. I read your statement above several times, and I can only come away with the idea that you support considerably increasing the bureaucrats' discretionary range. I support the bureaucrats having a certain leeway, but I'm uncomfortable with increasing it for any but the most difficult and controvertial RFAs (3-5 per year). Discretion is a feather on the scales, not a finger. AKAF 09:45, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
    I do not support increasing discretionary range beyond current levels. I am describing the consensus system currently in place, as I understand it, and as it is implemented in the RfA process by our current bureaucrats. Andre (talk) 11:52, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
    If that's how you want to slice it, then I think that you understand the current discretionary range to be broader than my understanding of it. In my opinion bureaucratic discretion mostly isn't necessary, but your answers to the questions above makes me think that you'll want your finger on the balance in more cases than I'm comfortable with. Your "77%" answer is (for me) an example of this attitude. AKAF 14:23, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
  2. Oppose. Being a bureaucrat should be a job essentially any regular old Wikipedian could do. We should have clear and simple guidelines for the job and no need for mysticism. Bureaucrats should form a, well, bureaucracy (though hopefully an efficient one), not a Guardian Council. The candidate's statement leaves me feeling that his views on the job are too distant from mine. Kudos, however, on running for the job and encouraging others to do so. Haukur 11:39, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
    For what it's worth, I agree with you that bureaucrats are not special or magical, they're just trusted users who understand when a bunch of people agree about something. However, RfA is not a vote or a supermajority, and RfA couldn't really be handled by a bot or a vote-counting user (at least, under the current system... if you're proposing reform, that's a discussion for another page). See Misplaced Pages:Consensus#Consensus vs. supermajority. Andre (talk) 12:08, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
    For the record, yes, I would like a move towards the German system but I do realize that we are not there yet and that in the meantime we still have to promote new bureaucrats. As to "trusted users who understand when a bunch of people agree about something" I think that's already a role that's too nebulously defined for anyone to do consistently and well but several of the bureaucrats understand their remit as going well beyond that and into discounting opinions they disagree with and judging candidates on their merits. Your statement leaves me unconvinced that you would refrain from this. I find this scenario you propose particularly outlandish: "77% of editors expressed their support, but everyone generally agrees that so-and-so is qualified, and oppose comments were fairly noncommittal, so I will promote." I don't see a situation where everyone agrees that a candidate is qualified but 23% of voters oppose her candidacy as possible. Haukur 13:49, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
  3. Oppose Weak Oppose. Reference to IAR and BOLD in answer to my optional question really worry me. IAR should never be a factor in closing contentious RfAs. The useful function of IAR is to allow process to be circumvented in clear-cut, uncontroversial cases, not to provide a license to ignore consensus. Walton 08:44, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
    I stated above, in response to your question, that when the Danny RfA was closed by Rdsmith4, I believe he felt it was a clear-cut, obvious decision, of the sort that falls under the domain of those policies. I would like to stress that I have no intention of using either policy to support my findings if I become a bureaucrat. I say this not to convince you to change your status of oppose, but to clarify for the record and for others reading your comment, as I feel you have somewhat misrepresented my viewpoint in your comment. Andre (talk) 09:01, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
    Fair enough, I misunderstood you slightly. I still can't really support based on your answer, but I have changed to Weak Oppose, as I recognise that you would not routinely invoke IAR in closing RfAs. I apologise if I gave the impression that you would abuse the bureaucrat tools - I certainly don't think that. This request will probably pass, but I hope you will take heed of my concerns. Walton 17:05, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
    I understand. No hard feelings. Andre (talk) 20:58, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
  4. Oppose: In the opening to this RfB, you say "It's been a while". Indeed it has. You've been utterly absent from WT:RFA since November of 2005 up until a couple of days ago . Why the sudden re-interest? I'm hard pressed to understand how you could be well versed in community expectations for the role of bureaucrat. I also have precious little to go on with which to evaluate you as a potential bureaucrat. Very little activity at all with regards to RfA. Become involved again, as you were in 2005, engaging in discussion and evaluating candidates with some thought out comments and apply again in a few months please. --Durin 20:01, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
  5. Oppose per Durin. I'd prefer a more active admin be promoted to bureaucrat - we have enough inactive bureaucrats as it is, and I can't tell if you'll be consistent or not. Majorly (talk) 03:09, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
  6. Oppose per AKAF and Haukur. Everyking 05:50, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
  7. Oppose per my long standing reasoning and per Durin. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 17:43, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
  8. Basically per Durin -- Y not? 20:52, 8 July 2007 (UTC)


Neutral

  1. Sorry, I cannot support. You have not been active enough in Misplaced Pages lately, you had a "uncontroversial tenure" because you had not used your administrators tools as much as other "controversial" administrators, and that (in case you did not know, I am rather blunt, so my apologies if you get offended) you are fishing for bureaucratship, trying to ride on the previous three posted RfB's, just like people tried to ride the "wave" after Essjay's departure. While others may argue you don't need to have utilized your administrators tools in order to be a good bureaucratship, the fact that you don't use your administrator tools regularly leads me to think you would not use your new tools regularly as well. -- ReyBrujo 03:26, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
    Although I appreciate your viewpoint, I would like to point out that I announced a vague intent to submit my nomination at 23:08, 2 July 2007 (see Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for adminship#Bureaucratship Again?)... so actually, they're riding MY wave! ;) Andre (talk) 03:33, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
    Aha! You know, I am very happy to acknowledge my misjudgment and to strike that out. I cannot support because my main point was inactivity as administrator and editor in general, but at least your reply eased my mind (you never know when someone will get offended!). -- ReyBrujo 04:04, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
    And by the way, since you seem to stand my bluntness so well ;-) I don't like the "(and final, I'd say, regardless of outcome)" part of your nomination, because a) it makes me think you will leave or become very inactive if the request passes; b) therefore, it may make a few support your nomination because they don't want to see you leave; and c) the only Death Is Certain ;-) Anyways, good luck! -- ReyBrujo 04:08, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
    Oh, no, I have no intention of leaving. I'm sorry if that was misunderstood. I just meant that if this nomination fails, I have no desire to seek bureaucratship again - it's not really a big deal anyway, and I think 4 nominations is pushing it (actually I think 3 is pushing it as well). Andre (talk) 04:16, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
    But thanks for your reasoned comments and input, and your good luck! Andre (talk) 04:21, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
  2. Neutral for now. I have thoughts somewhat similar to ReyBrujo above. You've been an admin for three years and appear to have been involved in no major controversies. But at that same time, you've not been very active. There are lots of administrative backlogs that could have used attention, but you haven't spent much time attending to those. So what about the bureaucrat backlogs is different that would cause you to devote time to clearing them? It's not a reason to oppose, just a general perplexity at why you're even interested in being a bureaucrat. --JayHenry 20:10, 4 July 2007 (UTC)