Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 17:45, 10 July 2007

Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute.

This is Jimbo Wales's talk page, where you can send them messages and comments.

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You created this wonderful site

Meeting you is such a honor and pleasure and...all that that fun stuff! You have made a wonderful site! I...I...I am totally speechless and I am not even speaking! I am typing! Okay, I know I seem a little to much fan much. But I am just exited! Thank you for creating Misplaced Pages!-Angel David 00:55, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Hoopedia

This site, sponsored by the NBA is copying pages by Misplaced Pages without giving Misplaced Pages any credit. Possible lawsuit? Charlotte provided me these diffs on a separate source: For example, http://hoopedia.nba.com/index.php/Hack-a-Shaq is obviously copied from http://en.wikipedia.org/Hack-a-Shaq.

Thanks for your time,

Miranda 20:05, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

It does give Wiki some credit by using the name "Wiki," but no, there can be no lawsuit, since Misplaced Pages is free and free for distribution, and that goes for its content; and good thing it is in such a way. If Jimbo boy decides one day to sell Wiki for some 50 million bucks, the content will exist on other mirror sites and a new Wiki can be recreated by others. Hopefully, Jimbo will not take this step and the problem will never arise. :) --Thus Spake Anittas 20:10, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

No, "wiki" is a generic term not belonging to Misplaced Pages (or anybody else). Its use doesn't state or imply any sort of credit to Misplaced Pages. And Misplaced Pages, though "free", is licensed under a specific copyright license, GFDL, which makes specific rules regarding credit that must be given, which aren't being followed in the NBA wiki. However, any legal action would have to be taken by the creators of the specific content, not Misplaced Pages/Wikimedia themselves, who don't own the copyrights involved. From what I can see, the NBA Hoopedia has no statement of copyright license or credit on its article pages, and the history of that particular page doesn't include any edit comments indicating the source of the material other than the user who directly supplied it. *Dan T.* 20:46, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I knew I should have kept my mouth shut. Yes, you're right on all accounts. Perhaps someone could contact the owner of that site and ask them nicely to comply with the rules. Now, to my next concern: Wiki is free under GFDL, where one must give credit to Wiki for the content used. However, can Wales change the license for the content that used to fall under GFDL to become copyright material? I'm still worried that he one day may decide to sell the site and our work will become copyrighted, while we're pushed out by some bigshot company. --Thus Spake Anittas 21:01, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Under GDFL anyone can "sell" our work and make bazillions of bucks. But it would be like selling ice to Alaskans. It's already free, so why pay for it? The one thing they won't be able to do is copyright (other than GDFL) or otherwise take credit for our work. Rklawton 21:39, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Great to hear; and you're right: it wouldn't work to make Wiki a premium site, but it would work to add advertisement to the site, etc. You could probably argue that there is no need for advertisement because Wiki gets funds that would otherwise not be given, if the site had ads; but that still doesn't change my concerns that: 1) there might be an interest in aquiring Wiki, and; 2) Wales may be willing to sale the site in the future. If not now, then maybe in 10, 20 or even 30 years. Can he just decide to sell the site as he wishes? --Thus Spake Anittas 21:46, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, you can download the site now if you like. Free. So there's nothing to sell. Ask.com and others mirror Misplaced Pages's content already - and host it along with ads. However, they do this within the terms of the GDFL license, so it's no big deal. Rklawton 21:49, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I think that with so many people visiting the site, there is a great potential for business and as Wiki's popularity grows for each day, so does its worth. The mirror sites offer only the content, but not the encyclopedia where people can come and edit, and interact with each other. --Thus Spake Anittas 00:11, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Is anything being done regarding this instance of nba.com ripping off Misplaced Pages and all of its contributors? --Rajah 02:56, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't be surprised if some of our articles on basketball players use photos in violation of copyright. I know for a fact that some of our articles on basketball players lack photos. If we contact the NBA, we could suggest that they use our content, give us credit, and release some NBA and WNBA player photos under the GFDL so that we can use them. Crediting Misplaced Pages is their obligation under the GFDL anyway. Releasing photos would help us provide them with free marketing for their product. JamesMLane t c 03:46, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

I think Misplaced Pages and the NBA should respect each others IP rights. Your idea of a quid pro quo exchange, while interesting, probably won't hold up. I looked for the designated agent of NBA, but all I found was a designated agent for their photo section photos.nba.com terms, and it's Getty Images. --Rajah 03:53, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not an Encyclopedia, it is a CoE

Would really like to see your reaction to this little debate. Or rather "this huge debate". I actually think it goes to the heart of so much. JDG 17:19, 2 July 2007 (UTC) ... Oops, nevermind. Just read #5 in your Statement of Principles for the first time ("Very limited meta-discussion of the nature of the Misplaced Pages should be placed on the site itself."). Pardon. JDG

What do you mean by "CoE"? What does that stand for?--Jimbo Wales 19:34, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

"Compendium of Everything", apparently. Flyguy649_contribs 19:36, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

• My read is from the second paragraph of the discussion linked by User:JDG, "Misplaced Pages's role in the world is to be a Compendium of Everything..." Flyguy649_contribs 02:36, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

"Community of editors", maybe ? Abecedare 00:12, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Is Wikiversity, to Jimbo Wales, the appropriate place to discuss the nature of the Misplaced Pages? There is a topic there called Misplaced Pages Studies. A.Z. 23:23, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Since you, Jimbo, sort of invited me to expand upon it here, despite Principle 5, I was preparing myself to leave the best definition I could, as I very deeply feel that being a CoE (rhymes with Joe) is Misplaced Pages's real raison d'être, and that many thousands of disputes (literally) would be immediately and permanently resolved if this truth came to be understood and promulgated by our benevolent dictator and other leaders. Sadly, the whole thing was ruined when I was Googling for my own previous uses of "Compendium of Everything" in both Misplaced Pages and meta.wikimedia, and I stumbled across a thing called "Citizendium" which defines itself as "a citizens' compendium of everything". No doubt you know of it, as it is the work of none other than ol' LWS. But I hadn't been aware of it and was absolutely shocked when I saw my pet phrase used for his project. Shock swiftly gave way to hilarity, though: if anybody is constitutionally disinclined to create a true CoE, it's Larry, with his insistence on expert editors. Despite his use of "compendium of everything", and despite actually ending the name of his project with "endium", there is no chance it will actually be a CoE under his severely limiting pre-conditions. So, it's all ruined. I was harboring secret hopes that my description of a CoE would capture your and others' imaginations, particularly the idea of enshrining 10 or 15 distinct Levels of Detail ranging from the Utterly Trivial to the Strictly Encyclopedic, with corresponding radio buttons in User Prefs to lock in the user's choice... But I'll spare you my full description of it, as the way I envisioned it happening is now impossible. Now that Sanger has a "Citizendium", we'll never have a vote on changing our name to "Wikipendium"; we'll never vote to change "The 💕" to "The World's First and Only CoE". Now we'll need some other terminology for what we really are, and I'm so stuck on "CoE" that I can't even begin to cook up something else... Here we are, creating one of the signal cultural achievements of our era, something that goes well beyond the 18th century paper-and-expert-bound "Encyclopedia", and we don't even have a word for it. True to psycholinguistic theory, the lack of a word actually causes folks to lack the concept, so we war amongst ourselves over what should be included/excluded (Inclusionists vs. Deletionists) when we should all understand we are creating a CoE and therefore absolutely everything should be included, with the presentation to the user strictly regulated through 15 Levels of Detail via software, with a default Level of, say, 4. What other reference work in history could at all rival this? Is there a shortage of magnetic diskspace? Why is there such resistance to fully becoming what we've already started becoming? Think of it like this: in a true Coe you can, if you've set your Detail Level all the way to 15, follow the life and times of Total Nobody, who, on April 14th, 2008, resolves to learn to walk and chew gum simultaneously, and fails for five entire weeks until that glorious June day on which she succeeds, even managing to blow a bubble or two as she lurches down the sidewalk (link to YouTube video provided). Her resolution and the implementation of it would doubtless be among the least notable events, from our present vantage point, ever recorded in a reference work. Yet I can assure you, and I believe you will admit the truth of this after only a little reflection, this event will be of real interest to some far-off future homo sapiens splendoris anthropologist mining this magnificent resource for details of daily life among homo sapiens sapiens. Imagine if we in 2007 somehow had text describing the tiniest activities of homo habilis or homo erectus or even just the Sumerians or the ancient Chinese. These homely details would be cherished by anthropologists fully on a level with the composition of the Epic of Gilgamesh or the refining and blending of saltpeter and other ingredients into gunpowder. To simply know how neolithic or peri-historical people spent their days would be a huge breakthrough in our understanding of ourselves. This is the same service we can render to the future if we just drop the outmoded limitations that the "Encyclopedia" percept puts on us. Thanks to the technology that our developers so ably wield, we can embed multiple versions of this reference under one rubric, and feed out the version desired by the simple programmatic reading of the value of an html form element linked to userid. One could sense Britannica and other encyclopedias trying to break free of the arbitrary constraints placed upon them by the physical book, as they fed out "yearbooks" and the like. Now we are easily free of those constraints thanks to software-driven document creation and TCP/IP internetworking, yet many of us insist on hoisting the old constraints right back onto us, and howl "Unencyclopedic!" and "Non-Notable!" when they are challenged by someone who has liberated her/his thinking from the Book form. Jimbo, please move away from those people. JDG 07:07, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Oh well, I guess the silent treatment is understandable. My way of writing about these things is a bit flighty. I'm pretty confident these ideas will be implemented, and that's reward enough. JDG 11:58, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

The Wikisistene Chapel

If you'd like a chuckle, check out possibly the best thread that WP:ANI has seen in a long time. Durova 03:35, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Or the most disrespectful. I found it to be one of wikipedia's more embarassing moments and rather offensive. Peace.Lsi john 03:48, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Chacun a son goût, and all that ... - Alison ☺ 04:08, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I thought Jimbo was meant to be God. And where is God's left arm? Gustav von Humpelschmumpel

OK, I see the arm, but why the pink dress? Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 20:10, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Who's going to tell God what to wear? -- ChrisO 20:14, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Well there was obviously some kind of clothing shortage. Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 22:27, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

My complaint letter about Misplaced Pages

Dear Mr Jimmy Wales- Some of what I'm about to say regarding Misplaced Pages's diatribes is so childishly simple, I fear it may be patronizing to explain; I apologize in advance. Here's the story: I have to laugh when Misplaced Pages says that it understands the difference between civilization and savagery. Where in the world did it get that idea? Not only does that idea contain absolutely no substance whatsoever, but that fact is simply inescapable to any thinking man or woman. "Thinking" is the key word in the previous sentence. Misplaced Pages has no evidence or examples to back up its point. Not that I've come to expect any better from Misplaced Pages. We no longer have the luxury of indulging in universalist, altruistic principles that, no matter how noble they may appear, have enabled the worst types of vitriolic megalomaniacs I've ever seen to sidetrack us, so we can't reverse the devolutionary course Misplaced Pages has set for us. There are many roads leading to the defeat of Misplaced Pages's plans to incite an atmosphere of violence and endangerment toward the good men, women, and children of this state. I feel that all of these roads must eventually pass through the same set of gates: the ability to act against injustice, whether it concerns drunk driving, domestic violence, or even escapism.

Please remember that I welcome Misplaced Pages's comments. However, Misplaced Pages needs to realize that the hour is late indeed. Fortunately, it's not yet too late to show principle, gumption, verve, and nerve. Misplaced Pages's tracts are just a rhetorical ploy to get away from the obvious fact that the really interesting thing about all this is not that a stockpile of Misplaced Pages quotes favoring negativism could fill a junkyard. The interesting thing is that its conclusions are geared toward the continuation of social stratification under the rubric of "tradition". Funny, that was the same term that Misplaced Pages's subordinates once used to cause this country to flounder on the shoals of self-interest, corruption, and chaos. Misplaced Pages knows perfectly well that its plans for the future owe much to the hijinks of what I call ethically bankrupt, unholy propagandists. What's my problem, then? Allow me to present it in the form of a question: How long shall there continue tyrannical contumelious-types to vend and yellow-bellied used-car salesmen to gulp so low a piece of careerism as its convictions? In other words, what exactly is it trying to hide? That's the big question. If you knew the answer to that then you'd also know why if you can make any sense out Misplaced Pages's unambitious, craven artifices, then you must have gotten higher marks in school than I did.

So don't tell me that like much conventional wisdom, Misplaced Pages's methods of interpretation contain too much convention and not enough wisdom just because its sermons reflect an unpleasant bias that will besmirch the memory of some genuine historic figures sooner than you think. Misplaced Pages's reason is not true reason. It does not seek the truth, but only scurrilous answers, unsympathetic resolutions to conflicts. Misplaced Pages wants to be the one who determines what information we have access to. Yet it is also a big proponent of a particularly diabolic form of gnosticism. Do you see something wrong with that picture? What I see is that Misplaced Pages is not interested in what is true and what is false or in what is good and what is evil. In fact, those distinctions have no meaning to it whatsoever. The only thing that has any meaning to Misplaced Pages is radicalism. Why? My answer is, as always, a model of clarity and the soul of wit: I don't know. However, I do know that if Misplaced Pages truly wanted to be helpful, it wouldn't enslave us, suppress our freedom, regiment our lives, confiscate our property, and dictate our values. During the first half of the 20th century, conformism could have been practically identified with paternalism. Today, it is not so clear who can properly be called an irrational, frotteurism-prone beatnik.

I know some ghastly ne'er-do-wells who actually believe that everyone and everything discriminates against Misplaced Pages -- including the writing on the bathroom stalls. Incredible? Those same people have told me that our unalienable rights are merely privileges that it can dole out or retract. With such people roaming about, it should come as no surprise to you that if it weren't for debauched, crafty skinheads, Misplaced Pages would have no friends. It may be unfashionable to say so and it may surprise a few of you out there, but I, hardheaded cynic that I am, do not propose a supernatural solution to the problems we're having with Misplaced Pages. Instead, I propose a practical, realistic, down-to-earth approach that requires only that I review the basic issues at the root of the debate. The nicest thing that can be said about Misplaced Pages's backers is that they are testy ex-cons out to create some self-serving, pseudo-psychological profile of me to discredit my opinions. From this anecdotal evidence, I would argue that its method (or school, or ideology -- it is hard to know exactly what to call it) goes by the name of "Misplaced Pages-ism". It is a crazy and avowedly mawkish philosophy that aims to take rights away from individuals on the basis of prejudice, myth, irrational belief, inaccurate information, and outright falsehood. This may sound like caricature, but Misplaced Pages commonly appoints ineffective people to important positions. It then ensures that these people stay in those positions because that makes it easy for Misplaced Pages to create an unwelcome climate for those of us who are striving to feed the starving, house the homeless, cure the sick, and still find wonder and awe in the sunrise and the moonlight.

Daily, the truth is being impressed upon us that while Misplaced Pages insists that censorship could benefit us, reality dictates otherwise. Actually, if you want a real dose of reality, look at how one of the great mysteries of modern life is, Is there anything that Misplaced Pages can't make its bootlickers believe? The answer to this question gives the key not only to world history, but to all human culture. Okay, that was a facetious statement. This one is not: I want my life to count. I want to be part of something significant and lasting. I want to give Misplaced Pages a rhadamanthine warning not to convince people that their peers are already riding the Misplaced Pages bandwagon and will think ill of them if they don't climb aboard, too.

If Misplaced Pages opened its eyes, it'd realize that its violations of the rules of decency are so beer-guzzling they beggar belief. We must overcome the fears that beset us every day of our lives. We must overcome the fear that Misplaced Pages will wage an odd sort of warfare upon a largely unprepared and unrecognizing public. And to overcome these fears, we must compile readers' remarks and suggestions and use them to arraign Misplaced Pages at the tribunal of public opinion. Misplaced Pages's helots don't represent an ideology. They don't represent a legitimate political group of people. They're just flat myopic.

There is something grievously wrong with those inimical vandals who accelerate the natural tendency of civilization to devolve from order to chaos, liberty to tyranny, and virtue to vice. Shame on the lot of them! Misplaced Pages possesses no significant intellectual skills whatsoever and has no interest in erudition. Heck, it can't even spell or define "erudition", much less achieve it.

Common sense and scientific evidence agree: One of Misplaced Pages's accomplices keeps throwing "scientific" studies at me, claiming they prove that Misplaced Pages is forward-looking, open-minded, and creative. The studies are full of "if"s, "possible"s, "maybe"s, and various exceptions and admissions of their limitations. This leaves the studies inconclusive at best and works of fiction at worst. The only thing these studies can possibly prove is that Misplaced Pages argues that character development is not a matter of "strength through adversity" but rather, "entitlement through victimization". I wish I could suggest some incontrovertible chain of apodictic reasoning that would overcome this argument, but the best I can do is the following: If its compeers had even an ounce of integrity, they would enable adversaries to meet each other and establish direct personal bonds which contradict the stereotypes they rely upon to power their avaricious publications. Misplaced Pages should work with us, not step in at the eleventh hour and hog all the glory. We need to look beyond the most immediate and visible problems with Misplaced Pages. We need to look at what is behind these problems and understand that if Misplaced Pages had even a shred of intellectual integrity, it'd admit that it sometimes has trouble convincing people that its vices are the only true virtues. When it has such trouble, it usually trots out a few dour scalawags to constate authoritatively that Misplaced Pages's maneuvers are a breath of fresh air amid our modern culture's toxic cloud of chaos. Whether or not that trick of its works, it's still the case that it is immature and stupid of Misplaced Pages to give rise to grumpy mischievous-types. It would be mature and intelligent, however, to criticize the obvious incongruities presented by it and its fans, and that's why I say that it has a natural talent for complaining. It can find any aspect of life and whine about it for hours upon hours.

Misplaced Pages would have us believe that it knows 100% of everything 100% of the time. That, of course, is nonsense, total nonsense. But Misplaced Pages is surrounded by vexatious, lascivious big-labor bosses who parrot the same nonsense, which is why its sophistries are based on two fundamental errors. They assume that we have no reason to be fearful about the criminally violent trends in our society today and over the past ten to fifteen years. And they promote the mistaken idea that everyone who doesn't share its beliefs is an uppity fugitive deserving of death and damnation. I don't normally want to expose anyone to rigorous sarcasm, satire and disdain, but Misplaced Pages undoubtedly deserves it. If Misplaced Pages were to inspire a recrudescence of scornful fatuity, social upheaval and violence would follow. It is therefore clear that Misplaced Pages flatters people in order to betray them. But the problems with Misplaced Pages's projects don't end there. Misplaced Pages wants to lead us, lemminglike, over the precipice of self-destruction. It gets better: It actually believes that it can override nature. I guess no one's ever told it that its most obscene tactic is to fabricate a phony war between dodgy pillocks and duplicitous, addlepated beguilers. This way, Misplaced Pages can subjugate both groups into helping it till the disorganized side of the stoicism garden. I unquestionably don't want that to happen, which is why I'm telling you that we must make this world a kinder, gentler place. Our children depend on that. It seems that no one else is telling you that Misplaced Pages doesn't care about accountability in our public systems. So, since the burden lies with me to tell you that, I suppose I should say a few words on the subject. To begin with, for the nonce, Misplaced Pages is content to offer stones instead of bread to the emotional and spiritual hungers of the world. But before the year is over, it will deny minorities a cultural voice.

When Misplaced Pages made its puppy-dog allies wag their little tails by promising to let them attack the critical realism and impassive objectivity that are the central epistemological foundations of the scientific worldview, I realized for the first time that relative to just a few years ago, the most discourteous junkies you'll ever see are nearly ten times as likely to believe that Misplaced Pages has been robbed of all it does not possess. This is neither a coincidence nor simply a sign of the times. Rather, it reflects a sophisticated, psychological warfare program designed by Misplaced Pages to treat people like the most hidebound dorks I've ever seen. Misplaced Pages says that it is the one who will lead us to our great shining future. What it means by this, of course, is that it wants free reign to transform our little community into a global crucible of terror and gore. Other than that, Misplaced Pages is known for walking into crowded rooms and telling everyone there that arriving at a true state of comprehension is too difficult and/or time-consuming. Try, if you can, to concoct a statement better calculated to show how money-grubbing Misplaced Pages is. You can't do it. Not only that, but if it bites me, I will undeniably bite back. I would like to end on a heartfelt note. Misplaced Pages's primary motivation is self-enrichment at our expense.

Thank you, --Darlingshire Barracks 10:45, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

This user has made a total of five edits to wikipedia, including his own page, and all of them today. --Anthony.bradbury 11:23, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Is that a crime? --Darlingshire Barracks 11:24, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

No. My comment reflects the length and depth of your wikipedia experience. --Anthony.bradbury 21:59, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

• No editing is not a crime, vandalising the main page is . Please don't do it again. Giano 12:29, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

You mask any valid arguments you may have with unnecessarily complex language. Someone who has a valid point to make (and who doesn't live in or before the 17th century) ought to just come out and say it without trying to confuse their audience. For this reason alone the majority of Misplaced Pages is likely to completely ignore your statement. Perhaps it would be wise to take a little time to cool off, and come back and have an educated conversation on the subject devoid of the meaningless rhetoric. --D 12:07, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Source: Scott Pakin's automatic complaint-letter generator. (At least I believe so...) Silly rabbit 12:36, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

And this has been done before on Misplaced Pages. (So no, this is not an original joke.) Silly rabbit 12:40, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I think he may be lampooning my diatribe above. I plead guilty to a byzantine style, Darlingshire... but are you sure there's not some reverse snobbery at work here? JDG 16:13, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Possibly. But I think it's just a happy accident: see this diff. Silly rabbit 17:02, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Why didnt Barracks discuss whether or not the gehoxtahagen is framed up by the ramistan? Wesleymullins 18:54, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Darlingshire, I just have one question for you. Uhh...what?--SGT Tex 21:41, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

It's a prank. The letter is automatically randomly generated by an intelligent computer program. See http://www.pakin.org/complaint/ Silly rabbit 21:44, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Ah, thanks Silly rabbit, I thought my comprehension skills had left me for a moment there. I'm glad I'm not as much of an idiot as I thought. --SGT Tex 02:01, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Two words: Ignatius Reilly.--Jimbo Wales 02:58, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

God Thread on ANI Board

I was curious as to whether this is appropriate conduct for Misplaced Pages? I'd appeal, but it seems all the people I could appeal to are participating. :P Drumpler 00:44, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

What, in particular, bothers you about it? I was raised a strict roman catholic and personally I think God would appreciate the humour (provided He understands the in-jokes :-p) --ɐuɐʞsəp (ʞɿɐʇ) 00:50, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

This is exactly the type of thing Conservapedia will hold against us, so we should definitely keep it --_ʇuǝɯɯoɔɐqǝɟ 01:01, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, interestingly, I'm not a Christian and do appreciate such humour as I detest religion in all of its form. Where I am concerned is that this could become a precedent for people holding several other off-topic discussions because "the admins did it." I have a really good idea for an essay, where this conversation can leak into, but for the WP:ANI page, I feel it inappropriate. Drumpler 11:20, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Help

Dear Sir,

I am a user in Portuguese wikipedia and I was blocked by an administrator because I vote in another direction in the pages to erase. He threatened me with blockade. Because of this threat I ask a informal mediation for the problem, but when he reads my request to a mediation, blocked me immediately. And know I can’t reply any question neither the mediation. What I can do?

The user is

Kind regards,

octavio.viana@rightsideclub.com —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.157.79.82 (talk • contribs) 02:42, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Dear Mr Wales

Rather than be rude and not answer my questions (like you usually do) would you mind actually responding to the comments i am about to make (if your not to busy travelling around the world big-noting yourself).

Okay, firstly i have noticed a number of flaws in wikipedia which i think require your attention (as apparently your better than everyone else, so you should be able to easily fix them).

1. Rude and Abusive editors - I have experienced a number of problems with editors who have abused me and been quite rude to me on a number of occasions, and i have tried to complain about them before however you don't seem to do anything about it, therefore i must assume that you think it is ok for editors to be rude and abusive, as you do not do anything about it.

2. Editors not admitting they are wrong - I have fought with another editor because he/she reverted my edit as he/she thought it was incorrect. After providing sufficient evidence to suggest that i was right, they refused to listen and would not admit that they were wrong, therefore meaning that the encylopedia was incorrect.

3. My third problem is you Mr Wales - I find it very upsetting to read through your talk page and see that you often do not respond to concerns when they are addressed to you. Instead, other "wanna be" Jimbos (why anyone would want to be you, i do not know) respond trying to answer questions about wikipedia, and it wouldn't be so bad except when something is addressed to you personally i/we should not expect people other than you to answer it. Secondly on this point, i think that it is unfair of you to take responsibility for wikipedia's success. The fact is that yes you did co-found wikipedia, but its success to date has had little to do with you, dedicated editors make wikipedia run by adding and editing articles (without being payed, i might add), so really you don't do anything except pay the site fees.

4. Blocking policy - I am sure that within a few hours of posting this message my account will be blocked for "trolling" (like thats even a real word) when all i have really done is ask relevant questions and inform you of concerns which must be addressed. And once i am blocked, god knows i will not beable to get my account unblocked, there should be better unblocking procedures, so that honest people are not caught in the middle of a terrible situation which is what usually happens. Misplaced Pages admins seem to have it in their heads that editors do not deserve a second chance, "indef blocks" is not a fair policy, not even the legal system allow people to be held indefinately (well, not usually), and people are always entitle to a second chance.

Finally i would hope that you will personally respond to this comment, and i hope that other idiotic editors would kindly not comment on this situation or my comments, as this is quite clearly none of anyone elses business. So i would like Mr Wales to respond to my concerns and i would hope that you will be rectifying these problems.

Thank you for your time and i hope to see a response from you soon, (note: failure to respond will be seen as rude). (Mandy122 06:58, 4 July 2007 (UTC))

Consider me rude, but this is Mandy122 (talk · contribs)'s first edit. It's hard to right wrongs when you are careful not to give any specifics.-gadfium 09:03, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Gadfium, AFD. Mandy122, could you tell us more? Give us examples. About point 3, Jimbo Wales is very busy. Many people ask simple questions which don't need him to personally answer, so others help answer simple questions. --Kaypoh 09:33, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

While AGF'ing it should be noted that Mandy122 claims that editors have previously been rude, that Jimbo has not done anything about it (and doesn't answer every post on his talkpage), and is familiar with the term trolling. Is Mandy122 prepared to divulge if they edited under another name (or as an anon)? I would also point out that "indefinite" is not the same as permanent; an indef block can be lifted after 1 second, as indefinite means no determined time limit (i.e. no minimum or maximum). LessHeard vanU 09:56, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

And here we have another issue with other editors rudly commenting on issues that are none of their business, my questions/comments were directly to Mr Wales, it is no body elses business. But since you have asked User Kaypoh, regarding point three with simple questions, no problem yes definately answer them, but with specific topics/issues that are addressed directly to Mr Wales (such as my complaint) then there is no reason for anyone else to comment or add your input. And User LessHeard, regarding your point, just because this is my first edit doesn't mean that i am not expienced with wikipedia. My partner has used wikipedia for a number of years and i have seen some of the issues that he has had to deal with, and i think of my self as someone who, although have not edited regularly, knows how wikipedia works and the way it operates and you only have to read the talk pages to understand how rude, abusive and uncooperative some users are. At least three separate users have commented on my complaints but i do not hear anything of jimbo wales at all (probably washing his hair). (Mandy122 10:36, 4 July 2007 (UTC))

As I have previously noted*, it has become practice for third parties to comment on topics posted to Jimbo on this talkpage. Yep, there are rude, abusive and unco-operative people here at WP since, being the encyclopedia anyone can edit, there are a lot of rude, abusive and unco-operative people in the world generally. There are rules and guidelines here designed to mitigate the effects of same, but it isn't instant and it doesn't always work. Thems are the conditions that presides. (* coming so soon after my comments regarding Jimbo and posts for his eyes only, I am finding this discourse ever so slightly ironic...) LessHeard vanU 12:44, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Now, almost a week after i have posted my letter to Mr Wales, and we have not heard anything from him, how rude can you be Jimbo? There are two types of people in the world, there is the person who accepts that there is problems with their organisation and wants to take on board the public feedback and strive to improve their organisation so that it continues to improve, and there is the person who decides that they don't care about quality anymore, all they want is there fame and money and they take no responsibility for the problems, they'd just rather let things roll on and not fix the numerous problems with their website. You are the second person Mr Wales. And i guess what is even more upsetting is that you think the reason that wikipedia is so popular is all because of you, what a load of rubbish, you may have originally created the site but you've done nothing to maintain it, it is the dedicated wikipedia editors who are the real heroes here (the volunteers), not you Mr Wales, you're just a lazy person who doesn't care about anyone but himself. (Mandy122 04:02, 10 July 2007 (UTC))

Just a suggestion, but complaints about the rudeness of other editors carry more weight when you are not characterizing your fellow editors as "idiotic".--Isotope23 16:33, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Complaint

Hello, Jimbo. Is there a reason that Misplaced Pages has no model for editors to follow when adding citations? As article reach higher maturity levels, citations become required. When they aren't there, the next editor has a pile of work to do. -Susanlesch 09:45, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Well there is Misplaced Pages:Citing sources, or where you thinking of something else? --Sherool (talk) 11:50, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

• Hello, Sherool. Well for example, to make this citation, I used WP:CITET. But I had to stop, think, does 'cite news' have a publisher field or not? Thanks for your reply. -Susanlesch 02:19, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

<ref>{{cite news|author=Givhan, Robin|title=Dick Cheney, Dressing Down|publisher=The Washington Post, The Washington Post Company|work=|url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A43247-2005Jan27.html|date=]|accessdate=2007-07-04}}</ref>

• Well seeing no replies, maybe I ought to be more specific. I myself edited the 'cite journal' usage on WP:CITET. The page used to list publisher as a field (but the field is not there). I recall having to remove the UCLA law school and Springer from usage examples to do this. Wouldn't people wonder about an encyclopedia with buried (invisible) publishers for academic journals? -Susanlesch 22:49, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, actually, I have no idea about stuff like this, but it certainly sounds like something that could be improved. I have no idea why publisher is not listed as a field there, and I am sure someone will see this and help you or fix it. :) --Jimbo Wales 04:17, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

• What a shame. If you're unaware that sources could be wrong or missing I guess I conclude Misplaced Pages to be nonsense, with Google karma so high it could be polluting the mind of every computer user alive. How terribly sad. But thanks for writing back. -Susanlesch 13:02, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

WP:OFFICE pages on WP:MFD

Two pages presumably protected under the WP:OFFICE policy have been nominated for deletion here. You have been contacted either as an office contact or as someone involved in the editing or maintenance of the nominated pages. If you with to comment, please see the deletion discussion. Thank you, — xaosflux 14:14, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

The stone cold truth

Mr. Wales, what are you thinking? How much did those two dweebs who "created" YouTube get from Google? After everything washes out, they probably pulled in 8 million each, cash. Misplaced Pages (forget all this other cruft, including Wikimedia, MediaWiki, WikMediaPedia, PediaWikiMedia and all the other annoying ones), I say, Misplaced Pages has got to be worth at least triple over Youtube to Google. You're only one where they were two, so 8 mil * 2 * 3 = 48. 48 million stone cold cash for delivering this baby to Google. And, frankly, Google will be a better parent than this woeful foundation working out of St. Petersburg, Florida, of all places... C'mon, it was a nice ride, but it's really descending into a lot of jibba jabba (as Mr. T. would say). Your personal stock is at its apex exactly now. You don't know what will happen from this point forward. The Board, with legal assistance you yourself recruited, may find a way to legally sever you from this property. Your time is now. Jim Tour 10:32, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Hah! Maddie was here 18:34, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Hah! per maddiekate. Also WP:10T. And I'm fairly sure Jimmy is already a millionaire from Bomis --_ʇuǝɯɯoɔɐqǝɟ 18:50, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Gosh no, not from Bomis.--Jimbo Wales 21:14, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

How do you not make money off...erm...'adult photography'? --_ʇuǝɯɯoɔɐqǝɟ 22:21, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Don't believe everything you read on the Internet. Or the New Yorker. :) --Jimbo Wales 23:15, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't that kinda undermine... uh... this? --_ʇuǝɯɯoɔɐqǝɟ 23:26, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Jimbo, I'm surprised to see you, of all people, among those editing this page. Seems as if you've been hiding for more than a year. Michael Hardy 22:09, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

... Oh...I see that's a bit of an exaggeration. Michael Hardy 22:19, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Heh, I edit here fairly often. For me the funniest part of the above exchange is that claim that the Youtube guys "probably pulled in $8 million" "stone cold cash". I can't help thinking of Austin Powers, since You Tube sold for $1.8 billion or whatever it was. :) --Jimbo Wales 23:14, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

It was 1.68 billion, to be exact. But it was all in stock. Tour probably thought that by the time they're allowed to actually cash out, and after taxes, that the real dollar amounts would be much less. Well, they are less—but not all the way down to 8 million each. The sale was in October, `06 and the YouTube guys were actually able to sell some of their stock this last Feb.. Each received $326.2 million. So if Tour's valuation of Misplaced Pages is correct (unlike his YouTube valuation), it would be 326 mil * 6 = 1,956 million, or nearly 2 billion for you alone, after penalties for selling early, taxes and everything else. You would instantly jump to approximately the 410th richest person in the world . JDG 14:54, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

WP10T you say. Let's look at this WP10T shall we?..."10 things you did not know about Misplaced Pages". Who did not know? I knew every one of these claims, myself. The statement germane to our business is #1 "We're not for sale". Yes, "We're not for sale", it says. Can't get any more direct than that, can you? Nor more wrong. Think of the many, many companies Google has gobbled. Were they not led by young, smart, strong-willed men (sorry, if there were any of the fair sex amongst them, please let us know) like Mr. Wales, full of pride in their creations and relishing their roles as founders and leaders? Yes, they were. Keyhole, Deja, Pyra Labs, 2Web, Outride, Inc., Neotonic, Applied Semantics, Kaltix, Genius Labs, Ignite Logic, Baidu.com, Picasa, Zipdash, Urchin Software, GrandCentral Communications, Feedburner, Panoramio, Doubleclick, @Last Software, YouTube. Ah, but the sweet, sweet song of millions on the barrelhead seduced them, one by one. Is your esteemed founder made of steel? Does ice-water slosh in his veins, not to mention his arteries? Hie thee to The Wayback Machine to see statements similar to WP10T on the websites of these companies, in some cases mere weeks before the SirenSong and the GoogleGobble.

After the flat statement "We're not for sale", this, this, what shall we call it, this carefully crafted FYI states, "If you're waiting for Misplaced Pages to be bought by your friendly neighborhood Internet giant, don't hold your breath. Misplaced Pages is run by the Wikimedia Foundation, a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization based in St. Petersburg, Florida." Oh ho! Don't hold your breath! But notice it says Misplaced Pages is run by the Foundation, not that Misplaced Pages is owned by, or "a property of" the Foundation. There are those who run and there are those who own. And those who run should not speak and write as if they are privy to all the dreams and desires of those who own.

Another page, doubtless written by those who run, states "With the announcement of the Wikimedia Foundation on June 20, 2003, the ownership of all domain names was transferred to the Foundation." This fact is given in the context of the question "Who Owns Misplaced Pages?". Yay, if the sheep want to believe that ownership of "wikipedia.org" and "wikipedia.com" shields them from a sudden drastic move by Mr. Wales, perhaps I should not disabuse them of their sleep aid. After all, sheep help so many others to sleep, it seems cruel to tear out from under them their own nighty-nighty comforts. But nay! I am sorry little sheep: while you sleep in the peace of the domain names owned by your beloved Foundation, Mr. Wales may one night, and should one night, make his midnight creep. And when the thing is consummated and 48 mil on the barrelhead goes, as it should go, to Mr. Wales and his children and their children, you will wake up to a reality all your FYIs and FAQs left you totally unprepared for. And that reality will be named: wikipedia.google.com.

I raise this in such a public way because it is the only decent avenue I have. A personal communication is not an option in my case, for reasons that will remain with me. But just as a person, to see what Mr.Wales may be throwing away due to distinctly uncapitalist principles he seems to have contracted, like a cold, over the years, is simply too painful.I had to try something to deliver him from this Patty Hearst-like allegiance to these flat-out communist ideas ("knowledge wants to be free", the entire damn copyleft movement) that cannot but rob him, his wife and their chidren of their due. Wales! Snap out of it! Hey! Snap out of it! Jim Tour 00:56, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

The Wikimedia Foundation owns the Misplaced Pages trademark. Jimbo can't sell the trademark, because he isn't even the chair of the Foundation, nor he own the copyright of any of the text (except the one he types, of course). So he can't even sell it. And if it were sold, someone else could copy it and Google couldn't do a thing, so there's no point in worries. Titoxd 01:07, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

The Wikimedia Foundation owns Misplaced Pages. Full stop. Not me. I find it amusing, though, to see that Jim Tour wants to save me from my "flat-out communist" ideas. The last I checked, I was still a card-carrying radical for capitalism. Check your premises, Mr. Tour. :) --Jimbo Wales 01:10, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Watch someone turn that into Liberal Bias. --_ʇuǝɯɯoɔɐqǝɟ

You're also forgetting that those weren't efforts intended to better the planet, but commercial ventures, at least as far as I've seen any of them. If google wanted to, they could 'take over' wikipedia anyway, with no need to buy it. Under the GFDL, as long as they give credit where credit is do, they could mirror Misplaced Pages for free (in the same way Linux is free), and then allow their users to edit it. Google could probably easily Embrace, extend, extinguish us if they wanted to, but I doubt they do --_ʇuǝɯɯoɔɐqǝɟ 01:48, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Ownership of "Misplaced Pages" is a very complicated matter. The Foundation owns the Misplaced Pages trademarks (probably worth quite a lot, as it's a well-known brand), and they own the servers (worth maybe a few tens of thousands of dollars; old hardware isn't very valuable). The text of Misplaced Pages is owned, quite literally, by the people who contributed it. --Carnildo 03:46, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

While there is the ability to purchase a copyrighted name, and a bank of servers, and some offices, Google (nor anybody else) is unable to purchase the concept. Jimbo, I would suggest, is fully aware that he is riding upon a paper tiger (how about that for a mixed metaphor!) in that the entire Wiki empire is only worth its current valuation while it is "free". As soon as it is purchased, and charges levied on reading and editing, then its value will drop like a stone (a cold stone, if you will) as the community migrates to the next free wiki based encyclopedia. Further, since nearly all material contained within WP is either public property or released under licenses that allow the copying and editing (with due acknowledgement) but retains the copyright with the license holder then any information that transfers with the sale of the name does not belong to the purchaser. In short, Jimbo nor anybody else has very little to sell except the name - every thing else is the community. LessHeard vanU 12:44, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

I must fly, as I am entertaining in my city apartment tonight, but let me suggest that all the above writers have missed a numbers of factors, all of which together mean that, if anybody does, Mr. Wales owns this project. 1) The editors! If it came down to Mr. Wales against some faceless Board in a dispute over the future disposition of the project, I estimate that fully 80% of this single greatest asset will follow Mr. Wales, particularly when he promises to reinvest a healthy percentage of his windfall into the project, 2) The developers. You have all talked about the data (text and images, mostly) being freely available and, yes, so is the software, but think of what would happen in a transition to Google. These developers would be showered with incomes, stocks, health-plans, flex schedules like they have never seen. The result would be, within four months, a proprietary codebase making the freely available one look broken-down, long in the tooth, etc.,. Never underestimate the cool factor. And that brings us to 3) The users. They will hear about the mighty struggles at Misplaced Pages on the news, pitting a red-blooded American entrepreneur against a Foundation hopping with Germans and French persons, trying to crush his right to be a tycoon with "copyleft" principles straight from the mind of Marx. It is obvious which side they will take to their hearts. Plus, the Google Misplaced Pages will look so much cooler... Well, I must stop at 3. Thank you for the lively debate. Jim Tour 14:14, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Seriously, who needs a Board after all? Who needs users? Tour's probably gonna be vaporised for crimethink anyways. Let's just ally with Google and... Hang on... who were we talking about again? Tour? Tour who? Must be Sanger's doing.
If you cannot deal with humor, please move on. --The Raven's Apprentice 14:35, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Re: Coldmachine

Thanks for letting me know. --Akhilleus (talk) 19:23, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

A question regarding spoilers

Over at Misplaced Pages talk:Spoiler and at least two other venues including a RfC and MedCab request, this whole issue over whether spoilers should be used in plot sections or at all has broken out repeatedly. The problem is that many are taking an abstract point with it, saying that "spoiler warnings are encyclopediac" or "Well, Misplaced Pages is never going to be like Encyclopedia Britannica, so why don't we stop pretending with these silly guidelines?" I was wondering if you could put your input into what you think readers should expect of Misplaced Pages. Some of the questions raised by those in favor of spoilers say that Misplaced Pages shouldn't reveal detailed plot information without express warning, while some (including I) consider the fact that just because people don't know about Misplaced Pages's disclaimer doesn't mean we have to warn in a (our view) condescending and redundant way that Misplaced Pages reveals details. Your thoughts would be appreciated, because if left to our own devices, those not in favor of the current guideline will continue posting a contested tag on the guideline (about which there is already an argument starting).

Sincerely, David Fuchs 23:01, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

But if he responds, won't that spoil the ending of the debate? Peace.Lsi john 23:08, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm simply tired of pointless philosophic queries which presume much and cede nothing. David Fuchs 14:17, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

How do we enforce WP:FRINGE?

Hi, Jimbo. You know that the English Misplaced Pages has expanded to comprise more than a million pages. Its popularity makes it a favourite target for folks pushing all sorts of fringe theories. As a result we have lots of obscure articles full of patently false claims or fringe theories. As a rule, there are no wikipedians who monitor these low-traffic pages or have them on the watchlist.

A stray pick: "Ancient Kamboja probably included the Pamirs, Badakshan, and parts of Tajikstan" (from Komedes). Or: "Jiroft civilization was older and more advanced than the Sumerian civilization" (from Jiroft civilization). Or: "Aratta was the oldest Armenian state" (from Aratta). Once I attempt to remove a loony claim, I am often reverted within minutes by nationalists or charlatans.

Such articles exist for years, giving Misplaced Pages a bad name for accuracy. They hold little interest for me, who has neither time nor energy to fight for their sanitation, but I feel there should a place where I could report them. The proliferation of fringe theories is detrimental to the image of Misplaced Pages. My attempts to report them on WP:RfC nor WP:ANI don't work.

A day ago, Misplaced Pages:Fringe theories/Noticeboard was started to deal with fringe theories and to enforce WP:FRINGE (which is currently just a declaration), but it will be most likely deleted on the grounds of its perceived "uselessness". How Misplaced Pages is supposed to decrankify obscure pages whose looniness is obvious to anyone with a high-school diploma? Should we just ignore them and let all sorts of silly claims languish in mainspace, as we do now? I would appreciate your opinion on this issue. --Ghirla 08:50, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Dear Jimbo Wales

Within the compass of this letter, I can do no more than indicate, as concisely as I can, relevant considerations that must be taken into account if we are to discuss Mr. Jimmy Wales's vapid accusations in a rational manner. Before I say anything else, let me remind Mr. Wales that he refuses to come to terms with reality. Mr. Wales prefers instead to live in a fantasy world of rationalization and hallucination. He wants us to emulate the White Queen from Lewis Carroll's Through the Looking Glass, who strives to believe "as many as six impossible things before breakfast". Then again, even the White Queen would have trouble believing that free speech is wonderful as long as you're not bashing Mr. Wales and the ophidian deadheads in his gang. I prefer to believe things that my experience tells me are true, such as that Mr. Wales's factotums say, "Coercion in the name of liberty is a valid use of state power." Yes, I'm afraid they really do talk like that. It's the only way for them to conceal that if you read between the lines of Mr. Wales's teachings, you'll unequivocally find that if I have a bias, it is only against lewd, lecherous misfits who shift our society from a culture of conscience to a culture of consensus. Someone has to be willing to view the realms of mandarinism and hooliganism not as two opposing poles, but as two continua. Even if it's not polite to do so. Even if it hurts a lot of people's feelings. Even if everyone else is pretending that the sky is falling. Mr. Wales's ability to capitalize on the economic chaos, racial tensions, and social discontent of the current historical moment can be explained, in large part, by the following. Of that I am certain, because Mr. Wales does, occasionally, make a valid point. But when he says that our unalienable rights are merely privileges that he can dole out or retract, that's where the facts end and the ludicrousness begins.

In order to solve the big problems with Mr. Wales, we must first understand these problems, and to understand them, we must help people break free of his cycle of oppression. He whines about disagreeable pickpockets, yet Mr. Wales enthusiastically supports the most insolent scalawags you'll ever see. On the surface, it would seem merely that it is our responsibility to ourselves, to our posterity, to our ancestors, and to the God of Nature, which made us what we are, to raise nugatory nonentities out of their cultural misery and lead them to the national community as a valuable, united factor. But the truth is that there's a special, dark corner of Hell for the likes of Hitler, Stalin, and Mr. Wales. So don't feed me any phony baloney about how diseases can be defeated not through standard medical research but through the creation of a new language, one that does not stigmatize certain groups and behaviors. That's just not true.

Mr. Wales presents one face to the public, a face that tells people what they want to hear. Then, in private, he devises new schemes to respond to this letter with hyperbolic and uncorroborated accusations and assaults on free speech. He speaks like a true defender of the status quo -- a status quo, we should not forget, that enables him to apotheosize yawping grifters.

Mr. Wales claims that granting him complete control over our lives is as important as breathing air. That claim is preposterous and, to use Mr. Wales's own language, overtly horny. No history can justify it.

This state of affairs demands the direct assault on those insecure campaigns that seek to traduce and discredit everyone but counter-productive hoodwinkers. We can say that Mr. Wales's stooges are blissfully ignorant of his confused tirades, and Mr. Wales can claim the opposite, and it won't make one bit of difference. Worse yet, he wants to crush the remaining vestiges of democracy throughout the world. Given this context, we need to return to the idea that motivated this letter: If he got his way, he'd be able to defy the rules of logic. Brrrr! It sends chills down my spine just thinking about that.

Let us postulate that a great many decent people are just as distressed as I am about Mr. Wales's prognoses. In that case, Mr. Wales's victims have been speaking out for years. Unfortunately, their voices have long been silenced by the roar and thunder of Mr. Wales's sympathizers, who loudly proclaim that classism is the only alternative to Jacobinism. Regardless of those brassbound proclamations, the truth is that his thesis is that he acts in the public interest. That's thoroughly irrational, you say? Good; that means you're finally catching on. The next step is to observe that Mr. Wales's conjectures promote a redistribution of wealth. This is always an appealing proposition for Mr. Wales's emissaries because much of the redistributed wealth will undoubtedly end up in the hands of the redistributors as a condign reward for their loyalty to Mr. Wales. As another disquieting tidbit, the following must be stated: The reason Mr. Wales wants to divert our attention from serious issues is that he's absolutely uneducated. If you believe you have another explanation for his lackluster behavior, then please write and tell me about it. His hopeless, sinful antics are an epiphenomenon of contemptuous, possession-obsessed denominationalism. And if that seems like a modest claim, I disagree. It's the most radical claim of all.

Mr. Wales is entirely mistaken if he believes that we should be grateful for the precious freedom to be robbed and kicked in the face by such a noble creature as him. His artifices have caused widespread social alienation, and from this alienation a thousand social pathologies have sprung. Mr. Wales is inherently unconscionable, amoral, and gormless. Oh, and he also has an insensate mode of existence. We must reach out to people with the message that with that kind of thinking, his backers internalize and adapt to the unwritten realities they must work under. We must alert people of that. We must educate them. We must inspire them. And we must encourage them to examine the warp and woof of Mr. Wales's double standards.

Mr. Wales never stops boasting about his generous contributions to charitable causes. As far as I can tell, however, his claimed magnanimousness is completely chimerical and, furthermore, if Mr. Wales honestly believes that some of my points are not valid, I would love to get some specific feedback from him. We could opt to sit back and let him shatter other people's lives and dreams. Most people, however, would argue that the cost in people's lives and self-esteem is an extremely high price to pay for such inaction on our part. The practical struggle which now begins, sketched in broad outlines, takes the following course: Mr. Wales has found a way to avoid compliance with government regulations, circumvent any further litigation, and steal the fruits of other people's labor -- all by trumping up a phony emergency. His refrains are not the solution to our problem. They are the problem.

Many people who follow Mr. Wales's prevarications have come to the erroneous conclusion that there's no difference between normal people like you and me and picayunish, insufferable knuckle-draggers. The truth of the matter is that he doesn't use words for communication or for exchanging information. He uses them to disarm, to hypnotize, to mislead, and to deceive. Mr. Wales wants to force us to tailor our hypnopompic insights just to suit his improvident whims. You know what groups have historically wanted to do the same thing? Fascists and Nazis. Lest I seem like a hypocrite, I should tell you that I once told him that I can't let him turn stirrers loose against us good citizens. How did he respond to that? He proceeded to curse me off using a number of colorful expletives not befitting this letter, which serves only to show that Mr. Wales's helpers are unified under a common goal. That goal is to undermine the individualistic underpinnings of traditional jurisprudence. Take, for example, bitter, politically incorrect sluggards. Now look at Mr. Wales. If you don't believe there's a similarity, then consider that his intent is to prevent us from asking questions. Mr. Wales doesn't want the details checked. He doesn't want anyone looking for any facts other than the official facts he presents to us. I wonder if this is because most of his "facts" are false.

Quite simply, time cannot change Mr. Wales's behavior. Time merely enlarges the field in which Mr. Wales can, with ever-increasing intensity and thoroughness, call for a return to that which wasn't particularly good in the first place. I indubitably don't believe that we should all bear the brunt of his actions. So when Mr. Wales says that that's what I believe, I see how little he understands my position. I suspect it's important to continue discussing this even after I've made my point, because this kind of thing makes me wonder whether we've ever moved past obscene materialism at all -- and Mr. Wales knows it. I would like to close by saying that Mr. Jimmy Wales upholds sin as sacred.

As for Misplaced Pages, I don't know what to make of Misplaced Pages's communications. On the one hand, Misplaced Pages confuses demagoguery with leadership and undocumented conspiracism with serious research. But on the other hand, Misplaced Pages does not play nice with others. Let's review the errors in Misplaced Pages's statements in order. First, Misplaced Pages's consistent lack of regard for others will develop a Pavlovian reflex in us, to make us afraid to let it know, in no uncertain terms, that many recent controversies have been fueled by a whole-hearted embracing of untrustworthy calumnies sooner than you think.

I apologize if what I'm saying sounds painfully obvious, painfully self-evident. However, it is so extremely important that I must surely say it. You might think this is all pretty funny now, but I doubt I'll hear you laughing if, any day now, Misplaced Pages is successfully able to make it nearly impossible to disturb its passive-aggressive gravy train. Misplaced Pages is guilty of at least one criminal offense. In addition, it frequently exhibits less formal criminal behavior, such as deliberate and even gleeful cruelty, explosive behavior, and a burning desire to turn peaceful gatherings into embarrassing scandals.

Misplaced Pages has spent untold hours trying to force us to bow down low before the most wretched flibbertigibbets you'll ever see. During that time, did it ever once occur to it that it gets perfervid about irrationalism? That's the question that perplexes me the most, because I'm not a self-pitying person. I'd like nothing more than to extend my hand in friendship to Misplaced Pages's emissaries and convey my hope that in the days to come we can work together to discuss, openly and candidly, a vision for a harmonious, multiracial society. Unfortunately, knowing them, they'd rather devastate vast acres of precious farmland because that's what Misplaced Pages wants. While Misplaced Pages is doubtlessly entitled to ignore good advice from intelligent people, you might have heard the story that it once agreed to help us straighten out its thinking. No one has located the document in which Misplaced Pages said that. No one has identified when or where Misplaced Pages said that. That's because it never said it. As you might have suspected, many people have witnessed Misplaced Pages expand, augment, and intensify the size and intrusiveness of its retinue. Misplaced Pages generally insists that its witnesses are mistaken and blames its prodigal antics on rotten ex-cons. It's like it has no-fault insurance against personal responsibility. What's more, throughout history, there has been a clash between those who wish to celebrate knowledge and truth for the sake of knowledge and truth and those who wish to go to great lengths to conceal its true aims and mislead the public. Naturally, Misplaced Pages belongs to the latter category. Misplaced Pages prefers to keep its paltry agenda hidden behind the cloak of clericalism. Why? That's easy. Misplaced Pages obviously believes that we should avoid personal responsibility. What kind of Humpty-Dumpty world is it living in? The answer is not obvious, because it doesn't use words for communication or for exchanging information. It uses them to disarm, to hypnotize, to mislead, and to deceive.

I must ask that Misplaced Pages's satraps oppose our human vices wherever they may be found -- arrogance, hatred, jealousy, unfaithfulness, avarice, and so on. I know they'll never do that, so here's an alternate proposal: They should, at the very least, back off and quit trying to trample into the mud all that is fine and noble and beautiful. My prediction that Misplaced Pages would bombard us with an endless array of hate literature came true so quickly, so brutally, so horribly, that even I was stunned by the magnitude and viciousness of it all. Misplaced Pages's assertions manifest themselves in two phases. Phase one: obstruct various things. Phase two: quash other people's opinions.

Misplaced Pages's prevarications are nothing shy of a slap in the face to all those who have fought and fallen in war for this country. The same holds true for totalitarianism-oriented polluters. Misplaced Pages's bruta fulmina remain opaque to many observers who dismiss Misplaced Pages on the basis of its vapid smear tactics and general lunacy. Or, to express that sentiment without all of the emotionally charged lingo, I wouldn't want to lay waste to the environment. I would, on the other hand, love to ensure that we survive and emerge triumphant out of the coming chaos and destruction. But, hey, I'm already doing that with this letter. Please let me explain that what I find frightening is that some academics actually believe Misplaced Pages's line that the sun rises just for it. In this case, "academics" refers to a stratum of the residual intelligentsia surviving the recession of its demotic base, not to those seekers of truth who understand that I would be grateful if Misplaced Pages would take a little time from its rigorous schedule to get the facts out in the hope that somebody else will do something to solve the problem. Of course, pigs will grow wings and fly before that ever happens.

Yet there's more to it than that. Brassbound interdenominationalism is Misplaced Pages's preferred quick-fix solution to complex cultural problems. So don't feed me any phony baloney about how fogyism brings one closer to nirvana. That's just not true. I sincerely find that debauched mumpish-types are no different from socially inept, stultiloquent fast-buck artists. No wonder that time cannot change Misplaced Pages's behavior. Time merely enlarges the field in which Misplaced Pages can, with ever-increasing intensity and thoroughness, attack the fabric of this nation. While I am not attempting to argue openly in favor of any particular position, the best thing about Misplaced Pages is the way that it encourages us to keep the faith. No, wait; Misplaced Pages doesn't encourage that. On the contrary, it discourages us from admitting that every time it gets caught trying to call evil good and good evil, it promises it'll never do so again. Subsequently, its cronies always jump in and explain that it really shouldn't be blamed even if it does, because, as they assert, everyone and everything discriminates against it -- including the writing on the bathroom stalls.

I have a soft spot for aberrent anthropophagi: a bog not too far from here. There are three points I need to make here. First, Misplaced Pages flatters people in order to betray them. Second, Misplaced Pages is slated for an unwept grave. And third, I believe in "live and let live". Misplaced Pages, in contrast, demands not only tolerance and acceptance of its utterances but endorsement of them. It's because of such boisterous demands that I suspect that it takes more than a mass of avaricious know-nothings to allay the concerns of the many people who have been harmed by it. It takes a great many thoughtful and semi-thoughtful people who are willing to supply the missing ingredient that could stop the worldwide slide into phallocentrism.

Misplaced Pages likes rantings that support international crime while purporting to oppose it. Could there be a conflict of interest there? If you were to ask me, I'd say that it had previously claimed that it had no intention to insult my intelligence. Of course, shortly thereafter, that's exactly what it did. Next, it denied that it would "solve" all our problems by talking them to death. We all know what happened then. Now, Misplaced Pages would have us believe it'd never ever rifle, pillage, plunder, and loot. Will it? Go figure. My view is that Misplaced Pages's long-term goals are like a Hydra. They continually acquire new heads and new strength. The only way to stunt their growth is to criticize the obvious incongruities presented by it and its helots. The only way to destroy its Hydra entirely is to provide more people with the knowledge that it's easy for us to shake our heads at Misplaced Pages's foolishness and cowardice. It's easy for us to exclaim that we should lead us all toward a better, brighter future. It's easy for us to say, "Misplaced Pages holds itself to low standards." The point is that it's easy for us to say these things because if you read between the lines of Misplaced Pages's philosophies, you'll certainly find that it's astounding that Misplaced Pages has found a way to work the words "disdenominationalize" and "historiographical" into its metanarratives. However, you may find it even more astounding that if it can't be reasoned out of its prejudices, it must be laughed out of them. If it can't be argued out of its selfishness, it must be shamed out of it. Colonialism is the principal ingredient in the ideological flypaper Misplaced Pages uses to attract the worst sorts of hateful dossers there are into its faction. Get that straight, please. Any other thinking is blame-shoving or responsibility-dodging. Furthermore, Misplaced Pages's canards are a load of bunk. I use this delightfully pejorative term, "bunk" -- an alternative from the same page of my criminal-slang lexicon would serve just as well -- because the point is that if everyone spent just five minutes a day thinking about ways to make plans and carry them out, we'd all be a lot better off. Is five minutes a day too much to ask for the promise of a better tomorrow? I hope not, but then again, by refusing to act, by refusing to provide information and inspiration to as many people as possible, we are giving Misplaced Pages the power to violate the basic tenets of journalism and scholarship.

By balancing the theoretical untruth and nonsense of Misplaced Pages's histrionics with the reality of this phenomenon, we can see that Misplaced Pages goes ga-ga for any type of recidivism you can think of. I wish I could put it more delicately, but that would miss the point. Nature is a wonderful teacher. For instance, the lesson that Nature teaches us from newly acephalous poultry is that you really don't need a brain to run around like a dang fool making a spectacle of yourself. Nature also teaches us that even when the facts don't fit, Misplaced Pages sometimes tries to use them anyway. It still maintains, for instance, that everything is happy and fine and good. It's really amazing, isn't it? We can put people on the Moon and send robot explorers to Mars, but the first thing we need to do is to get Misplaced Pages to admit that it has a problem. It should be counseled to recite the following:

I, Misplaced Pages, am a quasi-bleeding-heart purveyor of malice and hatred. I have been a participant in a giant scheme to publish blatantly contentious rhetoric as "education" for children to learn in school. I hereby admit my addiction to exclusionism. I ask for the strength and wisdom to fight this addiction. Once Misplaced Pages realizes that it has a problem, maybe then it'll see that what we have been imparting to it -- or what it has been eliciting from us -- is a half-submerged, barely intended logic, contaminated by wishes and tendencies we prefer not to acknowledge.

Thank You. --NotebookSevereConditions 15:34, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Impressive! My favorite word is "gormless". --Jimbo Wales 15:50, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

This just has to go to BJAODN. This and a recent edit to Jim's userpage, inciting Wikipedians to rebel. --The Raven's Apprentice 15:52, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Does anyone know what he was trying to say (other than the fact that he hates Misplaced Pages)? I have a pretty good command of the english langauge... but I got buried under all those huge words. How many times do you think he went to the thesuarus? 100? 500? Gscshoyru 15:55, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

He appears to be saying that Mr. Wales is trying to subvert free speech and begin some sort of tyrannical web conquest that will spill over into the real world, I believe, by fearmongering and aforementioned restricting of free speech. Has someone put this on BJAODN yet? David Fuchs 21:11, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

• "gormless" was good. Though I'm sorta partial to "chimerical". Perhaps the usage of both should be required in any article seeking to pass FAR. Peace.Lsi john 16:04, 6 July 2007 (UTC

Let me guess, Random argument generator? --_ʇuǝɯɯoɔɐqǝɟ 16:25, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

I came back to challenge this verbiage generator, in the tradition of the great John Henry, to a refereed debate. But I see the automatical knave has already been jettisoned from the project. I wave goodbye, good-riddance and mercy be upon the inhabitants of wherever you land. Jim Tour 17:39, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Don't forget to check out the author's picture... he's the guy on the right.--Isotope23 18:14, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

"Random nonsense generator" might be good. I haven't heard this much BS since my yuppie cousin's speech at my grandfather's funeral. The only thing worse than an idiot is a pseudointellectual. I hope he/she didn't spend too much time in the thesaurus if they just ended up blocked anyway. ;) Wikidan829 02:17, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Badlydrawnjeff

I am curious as to your reasoning for this, since the page doesn't seem to contain any personal information. David Mestel 20:43, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Also, if I recall correctly, the developers put that page on the no-crawl list (robots.txt). Sean William @ 20:45, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Just a courtesy blanking, no big deal. We can and should do this in almost all similar cases. The information is there for anyone who needs to find it, but yet it is more respectful to all parties involved in any way.--Jimbo Wales 21:25, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

What exactly do you mean by "similar cases"? David Mestel 21:49, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Any RfA where someone has asked for it. Any AfD where someone has asked for it. It's harmless and it is helpful, so why not?--Jimbo Wales 22:37, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

If this case is going to be courtesy-blanked, that should probably include the /evidence, /workshop, and /proposed decision pages and their talkpages as well. On the other hand, at least the principles passed by the committee are probably going to be relevant in future BLP discussions, don't reflect on any particular user or former user, and I wonder if there would be any objection to restoring those to the page. Regards, Newyorkbrad 22:43, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Well the primary concern was that the page was the first hit in google for one participant's name. If the page is in the no-crawl list, then that would presumably not be the case after a bit, and the page could be undeleted. If the principles are important, I wonder if it makes sense to have them only on that page. I am just brainstorming here, and maybe I am wrong, but it might be pretty interesting to have a page listing all principles from all arbcom cases, with dates. I don't know.--Jimbo Wales 22:47, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

You might want to raise this with the arbitrators and see if they have a view. As for a compilation of principles, that would take some effort, but could certain be assembled if people thought it would be useful. Newyorkbrad 23:18, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

There is already an incomplete compilation of principles here Misplaced Pages:Arbitration policy/Past decisions. --MichaelLinnear 01:24, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

It makes me happy to see that our leader shows respect for the humans behind the usernames. I think a lot of editors (particularly WikiLawyers) are forgetting that. — Deckiller 22:44, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Star

I gave you a barnstar before but its dissaperd :{ I thourght I should give you another one but If you dont want them say :}

		The Special Barnstar
		For being a genus who created Misplaced Pages which has bought lods of happyness ♥Fighting for charming Love♥ 13:06, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Um, see User:Jimbo Wales/Barnstars. --The Raven's Apprentice 15:34, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

I think being called a genus might be a tad insulting to Jimbo --_ʇuǝɯɯoɔɐqǝɟ 19:42, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

I think this whole thing is a subtle (or maybe not-so-subtle) comment on the level of spelling and grammar one commonly finds in Misplaced Pages articles... :) 131.111.8.102 21:27, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Wikiepedia Use Of Artistic Images

I have just posted this but it seems to have disappeared. I am therefore posting it again.

Dear Mr Wales, I hope this is permitted to contact you on this page. I am an artist and was recently speaking to one of your editors, who suggested I release some of my images for use on the site under your special release agreement - GFL (General Free Licence?). I was interested in this and he explained that non-commercial and wikiepedia only licences are not acceptable, because the site is copied by other sites who may be commercial. I did not find the release of low resolution images to be problematic therefore. However, he said there also had to be permission for alteration by anybody else who wanted to alter an image under this permission. As I understand it, a portrait I release under your licence can then, for example, have a moustache drawn on it by someone else and I would have no redress to stop this happening once the image had been released under the licence. I cannot see what encyclopedic purpose is served by the requirement for such a permission. In fact quite the opposite: it does not spread knowledge of an artist's work, as obviously artists spend a huge amount of time to create exactly the image they wish, and if others are to appreciate their work and understand it, then they need to see the work as the artist wishes it to be seen, not a modification which someone else has done. I therefore declined the invitation to upload any of my work. This requirement will be offputting to most artists and serves no valid need. I would like to support your enterprising project of creating free knowledge. My contribution is a suggestion that this particular clause is withdrawn. I note that some of my work is on your site already, presumably under a copyright fair use claim. I have no objection to this, because I retain moral rights that the work may not be altered. Yours, an artist - unsigned edit by 89.241.146.76 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This raises a valid point. Is there any Misplaced Pages-acceptable license under which an artist can release their work so that it can be freely used, copied, distributed, included in other works etc. (both commercial and non-commercial) yet not modified (i.e. no "moustaches drawn on a portrait")? 131.111.8.102 21:39, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Please see GFDL, which is what you are referring to. While yes, the GFDL does allow anyone to modify (as well as profit) off of your work, people will not modify pictures used to demonstrate an artist, and it is highly unlikely any other works would be modified either. There is really nothing you can do but keep it as copyrighted and fair use. You could place it under a Creative Commons license, but it would still be treated as copyright here, afaik -- L 00:58, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

It's an interesting point theoretically. But I'd like to see a concrete example of how this concern might manifest in a way detrimental to an artist. Generally, as L says, people simply have no reason to alter an image. If they want to blatantly subvert it (say, by adding a moustache to a portrait) that would come well into the permitted territory of parody, and artists have to live with that possibility whatever the rights involved. (A practical equivalent: Victor Lewis-Smith's "This is what he sounds like to me" section in TV Offal , where popular musical artists were shown with satirically distorted soundtracks). Gordonofcartoon 02:26, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

If an image is released under GFDL it means anyone in the world can modify it in any way they choose. Here's a hypothetical example: a prominent artist generously uploads a portrait of a world leader. Someone puts a swastika armband on the figure, a Hitler moustache and scribbles on it "world leader is a Nazi" and then uses it on an extremist web site, citing GFDL. The extremist organisation proceeds to use this image in any context they choose and as widely as they want, provided GFDL is cited. Furthermore, the prominent artist's name must continue to be associated with this image as its original author, and the artist cannot do anything about any of this. Such a prospect does not encourage anyone to release images. This would not be allowed as parody, because it is not parodying the painting. It is using the painting for another purpose.

Let's suppose Picasso was alive and uploaded his blue period images. Someone decides they should all be colour-changed to red, and that version happens to get picked up and used by other people, who don't even realise there was a blue version. It makes a mockery of the artist's intent, and also of the claimed purpose of spreading knowledge about the artist via an encyclopedia.

Basically any art uploaded under GFDL is reduced to clip art

This problem could be resolved easily by allowing a Creative Commons licence with commercial use, but not modification. It would clear the way for mirrors, CDs of wiki and so on, whilst reassuring artists that their work would be respected.

Tyrenius 04:01, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

You might want to look up publicity rights. A free-content license doesn't eliminate those. You might also look up moral rights -- again, not affected by a free-content license. --Carnildo 06:48, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

After my message yesterday and reading the replies, I have had the opportunity to discuss this with colleagues, one of whom has contributed to Misplaced Pages (I apologise for my previous wrong spelling), some of whom knew little about it, but expressed an interest. Again the major concern was that donated images might be altered in a way that did not reflect the intention of the artist. There was surprise that an encyclopedia would wish to allow any situation that changed an artist's work. There was general agreement that any reputable organisation would do their best to ensure that an artwork should be as accurate to the original as possible. (This is not intended as an attack on your organisation.) I have followed the guides given by the correspondent Carnildo above, but it leaves me more confused as to the permission you seek. Moral rights, of which I was already aware, forbids alteration or mutilation of a work. One of the examples I discussed wth the original Misplaced Pages editor was of a group portrait photograph. He was sure that your licence allowed the image of one of the people in the group portrait to be cropped and used in isolation (in an article on that person or elsewhere). Moral rights, in my understanding and that of my gallery director, would not allow this because it is a mutilation of the image. I don't understand the Misplaced Pages policy on this. A photographer in our discussion made the point that he spent hours of work to achieve exactly the right image and could accept the use of this in such a free source of knowledge, but not the alteration of it which changed what he had spent all that time to make. As a documentary photographer, he is in the position of contributing many exclusive images. There is certainly interest in contributing from my circle, but we would like clarification. As far as we ascertain, the modification mentioned in the Misplaced Pages GFDL licence is effectively restricted to resizing by the veto of moral rights, which does not permit alteration such as cropping, recolouring or otherwise altering the image. An official statement by Mr Wales or his official Misplaced Pages representative on this would be appreciated at this stage. - an artist.

Again though, no matter what you do, the photo will either be copyright, or open to modification. If it's such a big deal to you, you're just going to have to live with your pictures being fair use copyright --L 20:17, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Che Guevara

Thank you for alerting us of the problem on Che's article. Please see my reply on the talk page. Happy editing! Yours sincerely, Eddie 23:35, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Yeah. I'm pretty intrigued by this turn of events as well. Jimbo, what made you suddenly decide to aggressively cause a content dispute on a featured article, echoing to a tee points made by Ed Poor sometime ago? And how does this new editor, "Eddie", who has made no content edits at all on wikipedia, expect to re-write a featured article compiled largely by experts on the subject? Also, how was Eddie "alerted to the problem of this page", I can't see any diffs to suggest that he was? And I have no idea why Eddie would be alerted to this by you as he shows no connection to the article via his history of contributions - unless he was editing under a different, more familiar name? Some answers would welcome regarding this curious affair, not least out of respect to expert editors such as Polaris999 who spent many, many long hours working on the article for the benefit of the site. Perhaps Ed Poor could shed some light on this?-- Zleitzen 08:43, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't know anything about any of that. Yesterday I decided to spend some time doing something fun: reading Misplaced Pages randomly and doing some minor editing. A rare pleasure. I first read all about Patty Hearst, including a ton of related articles. Then I moved on to Charles Manson, reading a bunch of articles related to him. Eventually I moved on to Che Guevara. I know enough about the subject to know that a salient fact about him is that he was a mass murderer who committed his crimes on behalf of a dictator. I was surprised to see that the article did not mention this in the introduction. So I added an NPOV tag and left a comment on the talk page. I fail to see what is "aggressive" about this.

I was not contacted by Ed Poor. I can't imagine how this article could be considered a featured article. I have no information about a new editor named Eddie, and I so have no idea if he is a good writer or not. I have no information about how Eddie stumbled across the debate and decided to help out, and no reason to think that he is a sockpuppet of Ed Poor, if that is what you are hinting.--Jimbo Wales 16:35, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

A request for a comment-update

A while ago you deleted/protected due to a legal notice, but nothing's come of it since then. Is there anything new, or has someone else taken this up? Please reply on the talk page of the image, since that's where the conversion that lead to me making this comment is going on. Thanx. 68.39.174.238 15:33, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

The image can be re-uploaded at any time. This one just fell through the cracks when Brad left.--Jimbo Wales 16:55, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Instruction creep

Hi Jimbo,

If you look at this, there are some active proposals on notability which seem to be there just for the fact that someone can say that they wrote a guideline. They're starting to get instruction creep-ish and go against everything said in m:Wiki is not paper. You can take a look at them if you want at Template:Notabilityguide under the "Active proposals" section. That goes for anyone that looks at this page too, and cares to comment.

Thanks,

Cool Blue 16:37, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Anonymous/Tor editing, Solutions?

Hello.
(Quick note: This is not only intended for Mr. Wales. I'm very much interested in hearing other people's opinions as well)
So, it seems as though at least a couple editors feel that they've been victims of de facto bans (not blocks, but bans), based on their desire to anonymously edit. More generally, editors are actively discouraged from using them, and may feel pressured to choose between exposing personal information or simply not editing at all.
(Incidentally, before anyone tries to argue that little personal information is at stake, the amount of information I could collect about myself with just the IP records of my editing in wikipedia is somewhat disturbing)
The fact is, there are numerous reasons why a person might want to edit anonymously:

1. Local censorship. -China's the obvious case, but I don't know a single government I particularly trust.
2. Stalkers -Real life stalkers, including ex-spouses. If I did have an ex-wife, and they suspected they might have figured out my username, the ip logs here could easily tell them what country, province, city, building, and even personal office I was in, as well as the time and frequency that I travel to the US. Some people really do have ex's who are just that bad.
3. Online stalkers -Obviously, we know that certain somebodies on certain websites have tried to 'out' editors. Imagine what they could do if, in a matter of a day, they could get all that information I just mentioned, as well as full name, personal address and home phone number.
4. Sensitivity of information/retribution -While although all material needs to be sourced independently, it still remains a fact that a person might tend to want to write about topics close to their own lives. As a token example, suppose a person working for a large industry knew of publicly available EPA reports (or other such content) that was verifiable and reliable, but not widely known. They may wish to make that information more widely available, but have to worry about whether or not it would cost them their job.

As it is, admins can edit even when their IPs are blocked, correct?
I know that some people have batted around the idea of possibly allowing ipblock exemptions (I forget the actual term for it) for editors who request it. That way, you can still block the anonymous IPs, to cut down on vandalism, but still allow people to edit with safety and confidence.
Frankly, I'm having a hard time understanding why this isn't already an option. Sure, people could still vandalize, but they do that anyways. And it would be a simple task to simply remove the exemption after the first (and last) offense.
It certainly seems better than excluding people who want to contribute, solely to preserve the appearance of discouraging those who wish to be destructive. And it would certainly provide no less safety than is currently present with AOL users. Those users have all the anonymity of proxy users, but don't even have soft blocks.
What I (and others) am suggesting is not even blanket softblocks for these IPs, but rather some mechanism of simply allowing them to receive an ipblock-exempt bit. This would leave proxy editors as being held to a higher standard than AOL users currently are, so I don't see how vandalism could really be a concern.
Thoughts? Comments? Bladestorm 19:18, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I am a strong supporter of people using Tor to edit Misplaced Pages, and I think the current situation is quite unfortunate. There are complications to be sure, but the idea that admins can use Tor, while ordinary users can not, does not strike me as particularly appropriate. Anyone who is a normal trusted editor ought to be able to use Tor if they like... and why not?--Jimbo Wales 19:22, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

From my understanding, the developers added the feature that allows admininstrators to edit while their underlying IP is blocked with the intention that it be given to trusted users, but have not created an interface to allow the permission to be assigned, and at present it is given automatically to administrators. Perhaps we should ask the developers if they can create an interface for it at a special page, and let sterwards and/or bureucrats and/or sysops be able to use the interface. --Deskana (talk) 19:29, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

That sounds like a wonderful idea. :) (Uh... happen to know how to contact the developers?) Incidentally, I think sysops could be trusted with the ability to assign that bit, no? It's hardly different in principle from blocking and unblocking. Bladestorm 19:35, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

As the one who originally proposed that feature (bugzilla:3706), I can say my intention was to help trusted users (not only administrators, but also known non-vandal editors) who shared an IP address with non-logged-in vandals. The thought of using it to help trusted people bypass blocks on open proxies or tor outproxies (unless they happened to share an IP with an open proxy or tor outproxy) was never on my mind; in fact, such usage can be dangerous unless the secure server is being used (due to the possibility of password sniffing). I also never thought of a particular interface; my idea was that bureaucrats would be the ones somehow setting or resetting the flag. That this feature currently allow a sysop-only ability to edit via tor is an unfortunate side-effect (unfortunate due to it being sysop-only, not due to being able to edit via tor). --cesarb 03:26, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I do realize that password-sniffing is still a concern if this is to be done. (I have to suspect it's not a major concern, but there's really no reason to not address a potential vulnerability when investigating a new feature) It seems to me that anyone requesting the exemption would have to agree to use the secure server. (And, for that matter, the secure server would need to be advertised at least a little bit better. I had no idea it even existed until I read a question about it in one of the RfA's) Bladestorm 03:48, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Anyone editing through any proxy (or on any network they don't have personal control over the security of) should be editing using the secure server, this is certainly true. (Realistically, I imagine most TOR exit node operators have better things to do than sniff the connection on the off chance they catch a Misplaced Pages admin's password, but you never know.) Bladestorm, and anyone else with an opinion on this situation, you're certainly welcome to join the discussion at WT:NOP, as currently exactly these questions are being decided there. (And Jimbo, of course, that includes you too if you'd like to drop in a word or two. :) ) Seraphimblade 03:53, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I thought the secure server used null encryption? --Deskana (talk) 03:54, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

You know what? I have a degree in computer science, and all these details are still tricky to follow. I can't imagine what it must be like to absolute laymen. Bladestorm 04:02, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

No, it currently uses AES-256, at least for me (I just checked). There's no way it can use only null encryption; Firefox, for instance, will not accept null encryption (check on about:config the default value for the booleans under security.ssl2 and security.ssl3). --cesarb 04:06, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I am so freaking glad I focused on AI and combinatorial optimization instead of encryption and network security. That's absolutely greek to me. :) Bladestorm 04:10, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Cesar, you may want to have a look at Bug 6711. Closed as fixed... maybe undergoing testing or awaiting release? Titoxd 08:24, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

El Che

The debate is still going on pretty strong in here and the users are refusing to leave the pov template on place until its settled, I readded it but I doubt it will last long, do you think a full protection until a concensus is reached qualifies as a prudent thing to ask in this case? -凶 03:42, 10 July 2007 (UTC)