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Revision as of 18:32, 10 July 2007 editRockpocket (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users24,891 edits →Category: Irish criminals: reply← Previous edit Revision as of 22:27, 10 July 2007 edit undoHegertor (talk | contribs)21 edits Category: Prisoners of warNext edit →
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:::::::Neither to be fair, I'm just following your argument to its logical conclusion. If people who have been convicted of criminal offences are to have categories added accordingly, so be it. To that end I have taken the liberty of adding said categories to several ] players, but I will leave Prescott for another day. Your source is either incorrect or talking about a different time in history by the way, Irish Republican prisoners did receive special treatment until ] was abolished in 1976. However as the demands Gaughan was making were already conceded as part of that status, it is reasonable to assume that SCS did not apply to prisoners in English jails. ] 02:26, 10 July 2007 (UTC) :::::::Neither to be fair, I'm just following your argument to its logical conclusion. If people who have been convicted of criminal offences are to have categories added accordingly, so be it. To that end I have taken the liberty of adding said categories to several ] players, but I will leave Prescott for another day. Your source is either incorrect or talking about a different time in history by the way, Irish Republican prisoners did receive special treatment until ] was abolished in 1976. However as the demands Gaughan was making were already conceded as part of that status, it is reasonable to assume that SCS did not apply to prisoners in English jails. ] 02:26, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
:::::::: It will be interesting to see how long those cats last on the Rangers players. I support your logical conclusions (though I think the consensus is that motoring offenses do not count as, as John says, they are not considered criminal offenses for some reason). By they way, Walker address your point about Special Category Status. He points out that his conclusions are based on formalistic law and concedes that does not pre-empt decisions made on "moral or political considerations". In other words, SCS may have been afforded to certain prisoners (most certainly for political reasons), but in the absence of that status being awarded at the British Government's discretion (as appears to be the case for Gaughan) there is no legal basis for an assumption that IRA members covicted of criminal offenses are any different from any other criminal. ]<font color="black">e</font>] 18:32, 10 July 2007 (UTC) :::::::: It will be interesting to see how long those cats last on the Rangers players. I support your logical conclusions (though I think the consensus is that motoring offenses do not count as, as John says, they are not considered criminal offenses for some reason). By they way, Walker address your point about Special Category Status. He points out that his conclusions are based on formalistic law and concedes that does not pre-empt decisions made on "moral or political considerations". In other words, SCS may have been afforded to certain prisoners (most certainly for political reasons), but in the absence of that status being awarded at the British Government's discretion (as appears to be the case for Gaughan) there is no legal basis for an assumption that IRA members covicted of criminal offenses are any different from any other criminal. ]<font color="black">e</font>] 18:32, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

==Category: Prisoners of war==

I have deleted the subject from this category as it is clearly POV to include Michael Gaughan. IRA sympathisers might consider him a POW, but most people would not. He does not meet the normal legal definition of a POW: not a member of an internationally recognised state's army, not wearing uniform, no state of war existing.

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Which IRA was this guy a member of? I think it's safe to assume the PIRA, but could it have been the OIRA? Pauric 00:56, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

There does seem to be continuing confusion over which organisation he was in, with a number of edits changing it. This is the best I can find: "Michael Gaughan was one of the first Provisional IRA members to be imprisoned in England." . But it's not exactly an authoritative source. I would suggest that anybody changing, or reverting, his membership leave a comment asking for references and directing to the talk page. I would guess PIRA for the time being. How about putting in a {{citation}} ? Aaron McDaid (talk - contribs) 09:09, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Seems like sound reasoning to me. Pauric 17:27, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

POV tag

I believe that this article does not meet Misplaced Pages's Neutral POV critera.

All of the sources on the article are highly questionable. Particularly the references for force-feeding which use extremely POV language. Biofoundationsoflanguage 09:41, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Either deal with the specifics or remove that tag. If you are unhappy with the references that are used in the article feel free to introduce new references and material.--Vintagekits 09:55, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Reference 2 is POV. Reference 4 is POV. Reference 5 only mentions the hunger strikes, not the methods used by the prison on prisoners. Reference 7 POV. Just because something's on the internet doesn't mean it is a reliable reference for a wiki article. Biofoundationsoflanguage 13:06, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
You are just expressing your opinion that the are not neutral, additonally a source does not have to be neutral to be reliable per WP:RS. What exactly in the content do you consider as not neutral and why, lets dealing specifics. Can you provide referenced material which contradicts any of the information provided within the article?--Vintagekits 13:15, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
I've removed the tag for now; please discuss here towards settling this dispute. --John 14:25, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Agreed.--Vintagekits 14:42, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

I just did a general cleanup and copy edit, mostly just comma usage and such. I'm going to take some time to go through and verify the sources. — Rebelguys2 21:43, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

OK, a few things. Let's tackle them individually, so we don't get bogged down in one place and overlook another.

  1. Ref 22 (Tribe). It doesn't seem like a reliable source. It looks like a collection of unverified user-created information. Considering that the only thing we're getting out of it is that someone was "embarrassed," I think we should just cut the whole paragraph. Sources like this aren't good for verifying opinions and such.
  2. Ref 17 (The Ballad). I admittedly don't have much of a background here, but is it even relevant? We're not talking about Seamus Robinson (Irish Republican), but someone apparently more obscure, and I think we need evidence that the song is relevant and notable, not simply that it exists.

I'm going to look further into the medical issue, as well as some of the inconsistent numbers (March 30/31, and one of the sources, for some reason, says he died after 67 days). I'm also going to take a look at Biofoundationsoflanguage's grievances now, which I haven't done yet. — Rebelguys2 22:22, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

With regards 1. you could be right but I will try and find a more reliable source first and it seems like a well written and factual piece, 2. We are talking about Seamus Robinson (songwriter) - the song is pretty notable I would say, one of the more recogised rebel songs of the modern era.--Vintagekits 22:26, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Regardless of how well-written that piece is, it hasn't been vetted, and we're solely using it to judge a very subjective topic. We absolutely need a better source.
As far as #2 goes ... sounds good. Let's try to find a source that explains that it's widely recognized. — Rebelguys2 22:30, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
I just looked at Biofoundations' edits ... looks like you did a pretty good job referencing the whole thing. The issues that remain aren't really a big deal:
  1. "The funeral had embarrassed ..." Give it a good source, or it has to be removed.
  2. The first paragraph in Commemoration should be referenced, but I couldn't care less if anyone does or doesn't at this point.
  3. I think the medical stuff here is OK. The original source didn't have anything on that, and finding general force-feeding criticism and applying it here is something I don't believe necessary. It's applicability here is original research, anyway.
  4. Can we find another source for his demands? "A History of Ireland in Song" strikes me as unreliable.
  5. And, out of curiosity, do you know what "Tírghrá, National Commemoration Centre" is?
Thanks. — Rebelguys2 22:39, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
1. sorted, 2. sorted, 3. I'll get a ref for that but as explained above further info in essential (even if it is graphic) - I also have a graphic quote from Gerry Kelly describing the methods they used to enforce the force feeding. 4. sorted, 5. Tirghra is a book with a biography off all IRA, Sinn Fein, Cumann na Ban and Fianna Eireann member that where killed during the troubles and the NCC is a committee that was assembly to research, compile, write and publish Tirghra.--Vintagekits 02:24, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Neutrality of page

I would like to echo the concerns other editors have made on the neutrality of this page. The sources are almost entirely from partisan Republican sources. To give one example, reference eight is used as a reference for the description of force-feeding methods used. Reference eight is from the Noraid website. This fact is not mentioned in the citation, which in itself is bad practice and misleading. One does not have to be Ian Paisley to think that Noraid is a partisan, POV and unreliable source on this topic.

There are also references from An Phoblacht, the Sinn Fein newspaper, from Saorise, the Republican Sinn Fein newsletter, and from irelandsown.net, a Republican website. All of these are sources which are likely to portray IRA hungerstrikers from a hagiographic viewpoint, to exaggerate the ill-treatment which they received, and to exaggerate their impact on the political situation. A balanced page would have a couple of references from such sources, a couple of references from British government sources, and fifteen or so references from reputable history books on the Troubles.--86.31.239.209 00:33, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

You're suggesting we should balance out the page with British government sources and reputable history books. Help us find them! — Rebelguys2 00:38, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
"exaggerate the ill-treatment" - the guy died from the treatment he recieved - I'm not sure you can exaggerate that! Also I think this is a banned editor and I will now check that - if it is I will wipe this discussion.--Vintagekits 00:55, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Focus on the point they have made rather than whether they are a "banned user". The point that the page is not totally NPOV may not be without merit. It would be better to find some more neutral sources. --John 01:03, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I recognise the point the (single purpose) editor makes and I am currently going through books.--Vintagekits 01:07, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
- the guy died from not eating. He was provided with food but chose not to eat. Are you suggesting the provision of food was ill-treatment? Also please assume good faith: you have no reason to suspect that I might be a banned editor; and I am not one.--86.31.239.209 01:09, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
You are not who I thought you were - but have you edited under another IP or user name? As for your other comment, I am not going to dignify that with a response.--Vintagekits 01:17, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I have edited occasionally from several IPs. My previous point was a serious one: whether the guy died from pneumonia brought on by the hunger strike or the after-effects of force-feeding done in an attempt to beat the hunger-strike is essentially semantics: the basic cause of death is the same: the hunger strike. But this is a side issue - the basic point is that in a serious encyclopedia articles about the IRA (and anything else) should be referenced primarily from disinterested sources. Can you really defend reference 8?--86.31.239.209 01:34, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I welcome the introduction of any new sources, feel free to introduce them.--Vintagekits 01:37, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I changed the description of force-feeding process, because the description used was not to be found in the source provided. I quoted what was there, and attributed it. If we would prefer not to have inline attribution, then we should probably use more neutral language to describe it. Rockpocket 22:41, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I replaced it with the correct source. Additionally I will be looking forward to attributing ALL information you include in articles in a similar manner!--Vintagekits 22:56, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
(outdent) You will not need to, since I do it myself when the source is not neutral (see, for example, animal testing for plenty of examples). There are a few issues with this as it stands:
  1. You can't simply cut and paste a sentence like that. Its a copyright violation. So if you have to put in in quotes if you wish to copy text verbatim. If you put it on quotes, then you need to attribute it.
  2. The language is unencyclopaedic. Unless we are quoting verbatim, we need to ensure our language is neutral. "drag him or her by the hair to the top of the bed" is not neutral.
  3. I very much doubt the content is from Irelands Own ("a family magazine published weekly in Ireland. It specialises in lightweight content, nostalgia for the "old days", traditional stories, knitting patterns, and uncontroversial family content, including puzzles and recipes"). It says it is copyright of the National Hunger Strike Commemoration Committee, not a neutral source.
So, again, I have no problem with this content being here, but lets keep this free from propaganda and attribute verbatim material, or else rewrite neutrally. Rockpocket 23:22, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
I actually think that that is a description by Gearóid Ó Ceallaigh when he was describing his own force feeding around the same time as Gaughan. If its a direct qoute I will try and find it - but it'll have to be tommorrow cos I'm off to bed. slan.--Vintagekits 23:27, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
P.S. If you think there is a nice "kiddy friendly" way of describing force feeding or someone who does not want to be feed then you are mistaken - its a brutal act and uses brutal methods.--Vintagekits 23:28, 8 July 2007 (UTC)
Great, if he said it we can attribute it to him. Rockpocket 23:38, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Commemoration section

This section is not showing up in the article for some reason - anyone know why? can someone fix it?--Vintagekits 17:27, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Category: Irish criminals

This was reverted as "pov". The first source in the article states " sentenced in 1971 to seven years for conspiring to rob a London bank". Last time I checked conspiracy to rob banks was considered a crime, and Gaughan was convicted and sentenced for it, making him a criminal. Could the reverting editor explain to me why the addition of this cat is a "pov"? Rockpocket 01:13, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Thinking about this further, does anyone know if the charges were brought as a Scheduled terrorist related offence? I.e., were the conspiracy charges for which he was convicted classed as purely criminal or as terrorist related? If it was the latter, we could change the cat to Category:People imprisoned for terrorism, if it was the former, then I can see no objective reason the cat could be considered POV. Rockpocket 01:27, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
If that's the case, please make sure you add an English criminals category to John Prescott, as his article makes it clear he's been convicted of various motoring offences, confirmed here. Scalpfarmer 01:30, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Do it yourself, if that is your wish. This is a wiki afterall, the encyclopaedia anyone can edit. Rockpocket 01:34, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Motoring offences (rightly or wrongly) are not usually regarded as criminal acts though. --John 01:35, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Last time I checked speeding was a crime, despite people not regarding it as a criminal act. Scalpfarmer 01:46, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Its not entirely clear whether you have an issue with Michael Gaughan being categorised as criminal, or are concerned with John Prescott (in which case his talk page may be the better place for your comments). However, if it is the former, then I'm guessing that the issue is that prisoners of the Struggles did not like to see themselves as criminals. May I direct you to Walker, C.P. Irish republican prisoners—political detainees, prisoners of war or common criminals? Irish Jurist, 1984, 19, 189-225 for an independent review of the subject. His conclusion is:

The disparate claims for some sort of special treatment for convicted Republican prisoners can be rejected with confidence as almost totally without foundation in domestic or international law.

Rockpocket 02:19, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Neither to be fair, I'm just following your argument to its logical conclusion. If people who have been convicted of criminal offences are to have categories added accordingly, so be it. To that end I have taken the liberty of adding said categories to several Rangers F.C. players, but I will leave Prescott for another day. Your source is either incorrect or talking about a different time in history by the way, Irish Republican prisoners did receive special treatment until Special Category Status was abolished in 1976. However as the demands Gaughan was making were already conceded as part of that status, it is reasonable to assume that SCS did not apply to prisoners in English jails. Scalpfarmer 02:26, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
It will be interesting to see how long those cats last on the Rangers players. I support your logical conclusions (though I think the consensus is that motoring offenses do not count as, as John says, they are not considered criminal offenses for some reason). By they way, Walker address your point about Special Category Status. He points out that his conclusions are based on formalistic law and concedes that does not pre-empt decisions made on "moral or political considerations". In other words, SCS may have been afforded to certain prisoners (most certainly for political reasons), but in the absence of that status being awarded at the British Government's discretion (as appears to be the case for Gaughan) there is no legal basis for an assumption that IRA members covicted of criminal offenses are any different from any other criminal. Rockpocket 18:32, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Category: Prisoners of war

I have deleted the subject from this category as it is clearly POV to include Michael Gaughan. IRA sympathisers might consider him a POW, but most people would not. He does not meet the normal legal definition of a POW: not a member of an internationally recognised state's army, not wearing uniform, no state of war existing.

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