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Revision as of 14:14, 1 June 2005

Totally POV

Sentences like "Muhammad's delight in their death" are very POV. Not to mention there is no mention here of the veracity of the sources considering most Hadith were written centuries after the events happened.Yuber 22:43, 30 May 2005 (UTC)

The sentence has been fixed. Shahih Bukhari is considered by most Muslims to be the most reliable collection of hadith. Any other issues? Jayjg 13:50, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

Bukhari sid that only the Warriors were killed, a number far less than 900. Read this and this. This entire article relies on Ishaq's story of events, a man who the 'imam of the imams' described as "reckless", indeed Malik referred to him as "a liar", "an impostor" and one "who transmits his stories from the Jews". Not the greatest of sources, you will agree... actually you won't agree, because it fits your agenda to assume otherwise. --Irishpunktom\ 15:23, May 31, 2005 (UTC)

Please read User:Jmabel's comments, and please avoid personal attacks. Jayjg 17:34, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

IZAK asked me to take a look at this, but it's a topic I know almost nothing about, so my only comments will be process-oriented.

Irishpunktom: Your "actually you won't agree" is totally uncalled for, and approaches the level of an ad hominem attack. I see nothing that Jayjg has done on this article (or, really, any other article) that indicates bad faith. He and I are not particularly similar in our politics, but our subject-matter interests overlap, so I've found myself working with him on a number of articles. He's generally a pretty cooperative editor. Does he tend, when starting articles, to work from sources close to his own views? Yes. Sure. Almost all of us do: we almost all (except maybe Cberlet!) spend more time reading authors we tend to agree with than those we don't. Has he occasionally been reluctant to accept certain citations by people he disagrees with? Yes, occasionally, though those have tended to be unusual citations, e.g. self-published eyewitness accounts, which I am more inclined to credit than he is, but where I can certainly see how they at least rub up against Misplaced Pages's policy against original research.

There is no rule against editors having political views, and no rule against editors having political views different from one's own. There is a rule against bad-faith edits (but I see no evidence of that: if you think that is happening, you might want to raise the issue explicitly, and possibly start an RfC) and there is a rule against personal attacks (and, on that basis, I suggest you tone down your rhetoric).

In any event, when multiple, conflicting, plausible, contemporaneous or near-contemporaneous sources exist for historical events, the conflicting versions should almost always both be mentioned in the article, each with an indication of its source. If there are arguments why one version should be considered more plausible than the other, that should typically be mentioned, too. The article need not—in this case, I suspect, cannot—present a single version of events as Truth, but it can truthfully present what the conflicting sources each say, and what factors might be reasonably weighed in evaluating those sources. (On the other hand, if there is real consensus among historians that one version is considered authoritative, or if it can be shown that only historians of a particular political affiliation hold with one of the views, that should be covered, as well.) -- Jmabel | Talk 17:00, May 31, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments, Jmabel. As a point of reference, I will simply point out that I have made exactly one edit to this page, which was to NPOV a sentence objected to above, and fix some minor format issues: Jayjg 17:38, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

It's Not a Personal Attack, it's a simple statement based on fact. Jayjg has his agenda to push, which he does frequently, and repeatedly refuses to accept sources that dispute this agenda. This is evident from a large amount of edits he has made. It's also evident that he has been stalking Yuber (Amoung Others), reverting his edits without care for their content. It's also evident that when he is outnumbered in regard to any edit he calls in Guy Montag, Humus sapiens, etc. Why are these people, of all the thousands of wikipedian editors, asked for? The obvious answer is that they have the same agenda. At least Guy Montag is honest about it, his user page stating "I am primarily here to represent the nationalist right wing in Israel".

Again, that was not a personal attack, it was a simple statement based on many previous examples. --Irishpunktom\

Arab?

The categorizing of them as Arab doesn't make sense. If we go by the genealogical definition of Arab that was prevalent during those times, then they are descendants of Abraham. If descendants of Abraham follow Judaism, that makes them Jews.Yuber 23:23, 31 May 2005 (UTC)

If they were an Arab tribe that converted to Judaism, they'd be Arab, and it's not clear to me that the "genealogical definition of Arab" you refer to was prevalent in those times. Jayjg 09:44, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Reasons for fact dispute?

Does anyone actually want to discuss the reasons for the {{totally disputed}} ? --Irishpunktom\ 10:50, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)

Sure. I am up for it. But we have our hands full now. You list your objections and I'll see what I can do.

Guy Montag 11:46, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Right well, I didn't put the {{totally disputed}} there, Yuber did, so he might have other reasons, But from my own knowledge...

• Banu Qurayza was a Jewish tribe of ancient Arabia - Can you define Ancient, becuse I really don't think they were, also unsure about the Gramma'
• The tribe was wiped out during Muhammad's consolidation of power over the city of Medina - Thats simply incorrect, Ibn Ishaq, the primary source for this entire article, has several recorded dealings with members of the Banu (Bani) Qurayza, and that was over 150 years later.
• Believing Abu Sufyan would win, the tribe reluctently joined them - POV problem, their reluctance is Disputed, I'd rather it just said "the tribe joined them".
• Following the battle, Muhammad turned on his reluctant allies among the Banu Qurayza - Similar POV problem.
• It had been rumored that the Qurayza were going to break the treaty and allow the Meccans to enter Medina through their part of the city's fordifications. - Not that I disagree, but Cite sources ?
• Ibn Mu'adh was well-known as a man who hated Jews in general and the Banu Qurayza in particular. - POV problem again, you are relying on a Book written over 100 years after the death of the man, and a particularly dogy one at that.
• He ordered that the adult male population of the tribe, some 700-900 individuals, be beheaded. Ibn Ishaq describes the massacre as follows - Thats disputed, and is presented ina POV way, indeed the following quote, that of the Hadith of Bukhari tells a significantly different tale I give the judgment that their warriors should be killed and their children and women should be taken as prisoners. Bukhari's version is much similar to that of other similar events during the reign of Muhammad, and Bukhari, as Jayjg highlights, "is considered by most Muslims to be the most reliable collection of hadith".

There is also the POV, anti-Islamic (Islamopobic?) way it is presented, and perhaps Yuber has other issues too. --Irishpunktom\ 14:04, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)