Misplaced Pages

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Advice Needed

Dear Jimbo,

I need some advice, and don't know who to talk to; I feel like most Admin, and the Help Desk would just brush me off without actually hearing what I want to say. I don't even know if I can describe it, but I'll try. So, here goes:

I'm very upset with Misplaced Pages. I love it, I've met amazing people, and done great work with my time here; but I'm getting increasingly frustrated for over a year and half now. The problem lies in Wikipedians blindly citing Policy without discussing it, debating it, and I suspect actually reading it beyond the main title. There is no reasoned arguments, simply anal citation, and signature. New articles, Trivia, Pop Culture, etc. etc. the very reasons why I loved Misplaced Pages from the very start are vanishing in the name of mindless beaucratic regulation. Even when asked about Policies than inherently don't make logical sense in AfD, the retort is "that is not the current discussion" and "that doesn't matter". No one listens. I look at Recent Changes, and AfD, and am sickened; articles that should exist are deleted by users who don't know, realize, or care. The heartbeat of Misplaced Pages is gone, and in it's place, we are destroying ourselves.

Am I wrong in my belief that policy should guide arguments, not be the arguments? Am I totally wrong on Articles for deletion/Mortal Coil? Do you have any suggestions?

Thank you for your time. Zidel333 13:53, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

In my opinion, the article should have been speedy deleted. At a bare minimum, it needs to be merged with some other article, and all information removed for which there are no sources.--Jimbo Wales 19:59, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Is that all you have to say? I had hoped you would speak more candidly.... Zidel333 00:53, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

:-) More candidly? Not sure what else I could say. Did you have a specific question? The article is badly written, on a totally non-notable topic, there are no sources. --Jimbo Wales 02:14, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

That particular AfD was just an example of a more general problem, which is what Zidel was hoping you'd offer your thoughts on, if I understood correctly. He described some ways in which people discuss article merit that he has a problem with. Equazcion (Talk • Contribs) 06:06, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Ah, ok. Well, I think it is quite appropriate to cite policy, tradition, and precedent with reference to specific cases. I also think it is inappropriate to treat each new specific case as being unique without reference to those long established principles. So, basically, I guess I disagree. Now, at the same time, of course it also can at times make sense to say of a particular case that it for some surprising reason does not fit with the norm, and to call attention to that. But in a case like this one, there is nothing interesting about the particular case, or anyway no one seemed to have mentioned anything.--Jimbo Wales 17:26, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. As for my 2nd request, Equazcion was on the mark: it was for the Arguments question, and AfD in general. BtW, I'm a she, not a he. :) Zidel333 17:34, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

My bad, Zidel, sorry for the gender assumption :) Equazcion (Talk • Contribs) 18:29, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

You have a point there. I also hate it on AfD when people just put a random vote when they are neither interested in or care about the article. I would also like to see more indepth dicussions, preferably kept to the subject's Wikiproject and the outcome would be much more fair. I hope something is done. Lradrama 14:06, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I think you did a fine job of describing it; in fact that's a very articulate description of the problem. I'm encountering this myself at the trivia argument, which I see is one of your examples. And I agree that in many cases, the deletion of pop culture and trivia sections end up being a huge loss. They used to be the first parts of any article that I would read, and now they're first on the chopping block. There's also a trend I see now to delete new articles just because they're very short — which doesn't make any sense to me. Equazcion (Talk • Contribs) 17:46, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I'm aware of folks with solid academic background that were scared from Misplaced Pages exactly by huge trivia and pop culture sections. Like the one in Charon (mythology), which is way beefier than the relevant academic text. No other encyclopaedia is so lenient to triviacruft. It is annoying to stumble upon something like "In the game Civilization II, she is the female option for ruler of the Russians" in the middle of the article Catherine II of Russia. There are no definite criteria for inclusion of trivia into encyclopaedia entries, which are supposed to contain an assortment of most relevant facts, rather than a mess of stray notes added on a random basis by every passerby. --Ghirla 21:00, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

So rather than coming up with some definite criteria, we've chosen to ban all trivia sections across the board. I just don't see that as being the most enlightened solution. Equazcion (Talk • Contribs) 21:23, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Change of views?

Jimbo, you now say that a page like Mortal Coil (Star Trek: Voyager) should have been speedily deleted. But back in 2002, you apparently agreed with someone who said (emphasis added):

"Why shouldn't there be a page for every Simpsons character, and even a table listing every episode, all neatly crosslinked and introduced by a shorter central page like the above? Why shouldn't every episode name in the list link to a separate page for each of those episodes, with links to reviews and trivia? ... Hard disks are cheap.

What has changed in the past 5 years? Has the price of hard disks increased? Or are episodes of The Simpsons somehow different from episodes of Star Trek: Voyager? What is the reasoning behind this apparent change of views? —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 22:18, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to second that. It seems no one ever brings up any notability issues on anything Simpsons-related. There's an article for every character, every episode, etc, regardless of any of them being specifically notable. And while I don't want to put Jimbo on the spot by asking him to defend something he said 5 years ago, I would like to know what he thinks now, and whether or not his opinion has changed. It's possible that in 2002, Misplaced Pages still being in its infancy, the guiding principles that would have contradicted that statement simply hadn't been conceived of yet. Equazcion (Talk • Contribs) 05:17, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Erm... Jimbo? I know you're a busy guy, but you've responded to other comments since I left this one. It would mean a lot if you could explain this apparent change of views. Thanks. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 18:34, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Glad to know someone else is still watching this discussion. :) Ahh, I still didn't get my advice.... Zidel333 19:03, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Containment

Accusations on a popular website like Slashdot that a prolific administrator is accepting money to make articles biased can affect Wikimedia fundraising efforts and deserve to be seriously dealt with and not ignored. I trust that you and your fellow board members are taking appropriate steps. I warned you early on that the Essjay thing needed proper handling and it was mishandled. I think this case needs to be evaluated by legal personel and maybe just maybe at some point the wikimedia foundation can announce that an internal investigation has revealed zero evidence of any such thing. I know that I have zero evidence of any such thing and I've followed this in detail. WAS 4.250 18:41, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I am monitoring the situation carefully, and the communications committee is as well. The thing is: the story is so transparently preposterous that it is hard to imagine any serious journalist picking it up at all. Most of the people discussing it seem to be completely confused about the facts. If the question is: "Is SlimVirgin a pseudonym for someone who prefers to maintain a high level of privacy?" then the answer is a clear YES. If the question is: "Does Misplaced Pages sometimes oversight material when personal information is posted into the wiki?" then the answer is a clear YES. If the question is: "Doesn't this prove that SlimVirgin is a spy?" then, uhhhhhhh....--Jimbo Wales 14:08, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Daniel Brandt is pushing harder on this than he pushed on Essjay. Daniel Brandt's opinion is highly regarded by Seigenthaler, among others. Seigenthaler is highly regarded in the news business. Spy stories sell newspapers. This is not going away. WAS 4.250 15:03, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Talking to Daniel Brandt might be useful in ensuring that you are fully informed as to the claims and evidences; as you should be as the public face of wikipedia. I think that casually dismissing claims that she is a spy is poor strategy for many reasons. I think we should focus on wikipedia's objectively determinable concerns - namely that her on-line wikipedia behavior does not indicate being paid to bias articles. Whether more evidence than an in-house examination of her on-line wikipedia behavior is possible or desireable is I think a matter for her and our lawyers and such. At some point, if this got enough out of hand, she might welcome a certified clearing of her status based on a confidential release of financial information to lawyers (but maybe not - I wouldn't know). In any case, this needs careful handling and not ignoring or off the cuff comments. I'm glad I can count on you for that. Good luck with all your endeavors. WAS 4.250 15:32, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Is a log kept of all Oversight actions, with clear and detailed summaries for every time the Oversight function was/is used? Cla68 20:43, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

We are doubling in size every year. This requires a constant evolution of processes and procedures. I suggest that questions concerning oversight and other management issues are appropriate and useful. (Don't shoot the messenger.) WAS 4.250 22:46, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

As long as it is set up correctly, all oversight logs are kept in a private directory on the server. All oversighted revisions stay in the database, and can be viewed or unoversighted by a developer at any time (within reason). Matt/TheFearow (Talk) (Contribs) (Bot) 23:47, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Should the logs be viewable by everyone? Cla68 02:28, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

That destroys the point of oversight - The logs are viewable by the foundation, and that is all that is needed. Oversight is for removing personal information, and having logs viewable would show some of that information (especially if part of it was in the edit summary). Matt/TheFearow (Talk) (Contribs) (Bot) 05:14, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Then how do we achieve some level of transparency in our oversight function? Vague edit summaries ("deleted due to personal information")? Or is transparency not something we desire in our possibly more controversial administrative functions? Cla68 07:16, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages began with maximum public transparency. Public transparency has been compromised inch by inch over time as the need to do so for legal and moral reasons have surfaced and as we have gotten larger and accumulated people who bear us ill will. But public transparency is compromised as little as possible. WAS 4.250 20:04, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Mike Godwin's RfA

Hi Jimbo, this might interest you: Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/Mikegodwin. It's attracted a fair amount of controversy, with some people suggesting that you, as a steward and board member, should simply grant Mike Godwin administrator rights directly, rather than making him go through an RfA. There's also a thread on the bureaucrat's noticeboard. Me and Cecropia have declined to speedy promote him. Your thoughts on the matter would be appreciated. --Deskana (banana) 18:48, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

This matter has been resolved. Mike was promoted by Anthere at meta, and the RfA was closed. --Deskana (banana) 00:51, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Signpost

Jimbo, by the end of the thread that editor seems pretty well convinced that the rumor was baseless. Perhaps he or she will follow up on some leads for Wikinews? I'd be glad to see that curiosity put to constructive use. Perhaps a few encouraging words from you would help in that direction. Durova 01:08, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry

I'm sorry for one of my friends vandalism on you userpage as i forgot to logout and i only knew about it from a message once agan sorry Richardson j 02:25, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Can you tell your friend to go attack User:Curps instead? Trynton Shines 02:26, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

This is why it is preferred, if you are a serious editor, not to have any one else around when editing Misplaced Pages and this would be especially important for admins - you never know what will happen.--JForget 19:22, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

That is unrealistic but being responsible for one's own security is essential, if you dont trust people around you dont forget to log out! SqueakBox 19:25, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Libel or not?

Jimbo, I'd be very grateful for your input on a long-suppressed proposed edit to the Matt Drudge page. I cannot see the libel in it, but some other conservative (in every way) editors are unsure. Please either leave a short comment here, or there, or on my Talk page. Thanks. Skopp (Talk) 06:22, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

The edit certainly looks better with the modifications made in response to criticisms, but it would perhaps be helpful if you weren't so transparently here with an axe to grind. I do not know the subject matter well enough to know whether the stuff you are seeking to introduce would be a violation of "undue weight"... keep in mind that WP:BLP is not just about libel, but about writing responsible and ethical biographies even of controversial people. A general dislike for someone's political opinions or whatever is no cause to write a hatchet job about them. At the same time, sufficiently newsworthy allegations do need to be covered. Whether these are, I don't know. And then of course if the subject has denied the allegations, then this needs to be explained clearly. As it reads right now, the paragraph seems to have Drudge admitting to gay "dating" but not sex, which strikes me as a bit of an odd thing to admit, even in a "smoked but didn't inhale" era of bizarre public not-quite-confessions. Is that really accurate?--Jimbo Wales 14:04, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the comment, Jimbo. I don't have an axe to grind. I've actually made hundreds of edits to that page, mostly for accuracy but some for balance, since the page initially read like a hagiography. The opposing editors, if you check their histories, spend most of their time policing changes to pages of conservative and GOP personalities, so there is a weird balance of sorts — a balance that would be completely lacking without me. My interests are not simply political, as you'll see from my edit history. I take it from your comment that 1) it is not libellous as it stands, 2) it must be newsworthy (since much of it was covered in newspapers, I think that it clearly is), 3) his denial must be explained clearly (I will adjust, adding another quote, more adamant). If you agree with my assessment of your opinion, please post here, and thank you again! Skopp (Talk) 00:02, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages admin, arbitrator edits page of political opponent

Why is SimonP Simon Pulsifer editing the page of Ottawa mayor Larry O'Brien he worked on the election campaign of one of O'Brien's opponents, Alex Munter? 209.217.83.175 12:33, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I know nothing about it. Did you ask him? If you have a specific problem, I recommend going through the normal dispute resolution channels first.--Jimbo Wales 13:54, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

1) I think you mean Larry O'Brien (Canadian politician) - Simon never touched the one linked to above. 2) Simon's only edit seems to be adding a vote distribution graphic. Looks innocuous. --AnonEMouse 14:25, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't see this as a conflict of interest at all, he never edited for policies about Munter and O'Brien and he mentionned in my talk page that he cannot, or should I say he wanted to refrain from editing the article (he mentionned at least Munter) in question, well at least as far as campaign policies and positions, for that particular reason.--JForget 19:18, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Still, it looks bad. He should stay away from Ottawa city politics entirely. 209.217.119.199 18:26, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Press coverage

I am persuading the New York Times to do a technology news report on the content of wikipedia. What is your comments towards its content? Also check your email. The sunder king 18:57, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Auburn University activities

During your undergraduate study at Auburn University, did you ever participate in the Auburn University Marching Band? Thanks, Dennibr 00:03, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

No I did not, sorry. :) --Jimbo Wales 00:46, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I hope you dont mind

I placed a ribbon on your userpage Richardson j 00:11, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I reverted it. No offense, but it looks awful. --Deskana (banana) 00:11, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Who are you to revert it? It's a user-page, let the user revert it! Pubuman 01:08, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

He's a Misplaced Pages editor, that's who. Anyone's free to edit Jimbo's user page. --Carnildo 01:32, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

He needs a awards page for things like that! I'm sure it would get full too fast though, everyone wanting to give him a barnstar. Matt/TheFearow (Talk) (Contribs) (Bot) 05:15, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

1- That ribbon is about the ugliest thing I've ever seen on a user page, and I've seen REALLY ugly user pages. 2- He's got one. Learn to use Special:Prefixindex --Longing.... 07:42, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I do know how, I just assumed it would be linked to in big text on his user page. Matt/TheFearow (Talk) (Contribs) (Bot) 09:42, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

All this talk for a ribbon huh Richardson j 22:58, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Ribbons are serious business. Equazcion (Talk • Contribs) 23:01, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Yep. And we don't have much else to bother jimbo about. He must get sick of the "New messages" bar. Matt/TheFearow (Talk) (Contribs) (Bot) 23:17, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I wanna see the ribbon! 201.34.189.177 05:42, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Link Hut 8.5 14:42, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Smile

Have a Great Day, Jim!

Ruby has smiled at you! Smiles promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling at someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Happy editing!
Smile at others by adding {{subst:Smile}} to their talk page with a friendly message.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rubyandme (talk • contribs) 05:02, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Greetings and an Invitation

Hola! Gnangarra suggestion that I contact you about my project featuring Misplaced Pages. I am an English as a Foriegn Language teacher at the college level at ITESM Campus Toluca, just a bit west of Mexico City. For my Advanced B class, which consists over very proficient speakers of English, the focus and goal of the course is for students to become members of the Misplaced Pages community, culminating in the contribution of a new full-length article in English.

Please feel free to browse my user page and the pages related to the project at:

Misplaced Pages:School_and_university_projects/ITESM_Campus_Toluca

Gnangarra also mentioned to me that you might be willing to speak to us if you are in the area. If you are really willing, I can make some inquiries here about bringing you in as a speaker, though I have no idea what the school would be willing to offer. Sure couldnt hurt to ask! Certainly would make for a buzz around here!

Thanks for your time and attention.

Thelmadatter 13:38, 1 August 2007 (UTC)Thelmadatter

Silly question

Hello Jimbo (Mr. Wales)! I have a doubt and I'm sorry to bother you about it, but I need to know; is Misplaced Pages a democracy? Best regards. --Rolf Obermaier 17:58, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Answered on user's talk page. --Deskana (banana) 18:00, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Five Pillars

Would you say that the five pillars of Misplaced Pages stand on the same footing as policy? Are they similar but different? Above? Below? In a box by the door? Can they be cited as a reason for doing something like policy? --Eyrian 18:03, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

The Five Pillars of wikipedia, as said on the page itself, are a summary of policies and guidelines. As it also says, they are Misplaced Pages's fundamental principles. So yes, they're far, far, far more important than policy. Even if the dirty stinking inclusionists took over, the pillars would still apply --Longing.... 18:44, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Unsigned comment from 71.232.176.63

Please restrict "Omnicron8" and all the other Wiki-trolls from sabotaging profiles.

You have no way of reporting abuse. It should be as simple as clicking their username, and clicking a report this user link. Flag. SOMETHING. It's really pathetic how these freaks have so much time on their hands. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.232.176.63 (talk • contribs) 21:39, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

figure out the MAIN profile that created "omnicron5" and delete everything about him.

I was once the webmaster for theofficial sites of both of these celebs, and it's theONLY "edits" he made... deleting the external links.

don't have time for these assholes. I would prefer my clients not be associated with wiki, but they are here, therefore, the official links stay, and the trolls go. Or I will just take legal action. You choose.

No, I will not ID myself, and I have plenty of systems to login from. So, just do it.

My message to the troll....

TO: http://en.wikipedia.org/User:Omicron8

well, the proof is in your psychotic editing routine. get a fucking life already. Jesus Christ, how sad you must be to exist.

How interesting that the ONLY "contribution" you gave is to:

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Kathy_Najimy&diff=147810076&oldid=147709505

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/Sam_Harris_%28singer%29

and the only thing you do is remove the links to the official web sites

and ironically, both web sites had the same webmaster at some point.

hmmmm

using this omnitroll name (like I don't know who you are retard?!)

you can stop vandalizing those two pages now

you fucking pathetic moron.

cc: Jimbo Wales

rootmyass