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Sensei Shukumine's involvement in Genseiryu after 1962

In 1962 Shukumine sensei introduced a further development of Genseiryu which he named Taido. Taido is not to be regarded as Karate, but as a new martial art. This new Budo has a lot of acrobatic movements such as sommersaults and flips. Since leaving Genseiryu in 1962, Shukumine sensei only held a friendly relation with his former students/masters of Genseiryu, but he never took actual part in neither teaching nor examinations.

This is also stated by a Taido-ka, I have contacted. "Officially, Taido was started in 1965 and that is also when he definately left Genseiryu." This is a part of what he wrote te me.

Between the period 1962 and 1965 he completed the five basic principels of Taido, especially the TEN en NEN movements." In the World Taido Championships in Okinawa in 2001, Saiko Shihan asked to the highest Genseiryu senseis (Tosa and others) to convert to Taido." This is also what the Taido-ka wrote to me! So please, for those who are writing untrue stories, back those stories up with true arguments. -- Zzaroc 17:58, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I am sorry to say Mr.Tosa was not invited to that championship. So what you are telling is not true. Sensei Shukumine never had any contact with Tosa after Tosa turned his back on him and started his own commercial Karate organization. Please see also Sensei Shukumine's personal message at a training seminar in The Netherlands with Sensei Kanai and Sensei Konno. Please see the pictures on the Genseiryu website: Taido and Genseiryu people united to celebrate 55 years Genseiryu - 40 years Taido and to commemorate Sensei Shukumine. Besides that there are pictures of Sensei Shukumine teaching several Genseiryu Teachers like Genseiryu Head Instructor Sensei Kanai in Genseiryu Head dojo situated in Ito Japan in 1996. 212.127.137.2 19:37, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Were you at the championship or something?

So, if Mr. Tosa never had any contact with Mr. Shukumine after 1962, then please explain these picturse of Mr. Tosa and Mr. Shukumine together on the Brazilian Genseiryu website . -- Zzaroc 22:01, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I am sorry I didn't say Sensei Shukumine had any contact after 1962. I said he didn't had any contact after Sensei Tosa turned his back to Sensei Shukumine. This was after Sensei Shukumine wrote the preface for sensei Tosa's book about Genseiryu Butokukai. And yes I was present at the championship in Okinawa amongst other Genseiryu practitioners from Spain, Denmark, Holland, and Japan. I will try to give also a link with pictures of that event. I need a little time for that I am not an Internet black belt sorry for that. 212.127.137.2 22:53, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

You don't have to be a black belt, when your good, by the way. But take your time, I am patient.

But I was wondering. Mr. Tosa published his book in 1984, but there still a picture of him together with Mr. Shukumine in 1985 (I mean those pictures on the Brazilian site). Then there are still a few questionmarks.

But by the way, did you know that Mr. Tosa received several letters all over the world, just after Mr. Shukumine died? Those letters were asked for permission if some dojo's could join the organization of Mr. Tosa. Mr. Tosa denied these people to join his organization.

There was one person who send such a letter to Mr. Tosa from Holland, and you may guess who.

And I have got also another question. Mr. Seiken Shukumine past away to an hart attack. But when did he started to get ill? -- Zzaroc 23:59, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

No a black belt is not needed to have a certain skill. But in most occasion it shows an amount of training effort,time. And as you probably know training effort makes you become more skillfull.

I don't know when Mr. Tosa turned his back to sensei Shukumine so maybe my remark that they didn't had any contact shouldn't be done by me because I am not aware of that specific date. So I apologize for that. But I heard this occured in the mid till end '80s.

No, I didn't know that Mr. Tosa received several letters from all over the world. I know he claimed to get a letter from Holland. I know he received one which was delivered by someone from Denmark. But I know that the letter was completely different from what is claimed by Mr. Tosa. That is also easy to believe if you are member of a Genseiryu organization in Ito which was directly connected to sensei Shukumine where Sensei Shukumine still gave, in very few occasions, lectures about Genseiryu (pictures are on the way (few days necessary)). So you can imagine you don't beg for acknowledgement by Mr. Tosa who only wants you to train his way, which is very near to Shotokan with the basic kata of Shotokan. This dojo in Holland is not interested in any connection with Mr. Tosa. For what reason, if you want to train Genseiryu the same way as sensei Shukumine taught his students? The Head Instructor of this organization is now Sensei Kanai one of the first students of Sensei Shukumine. In Sensei Shukumine's book "Shin Karatedo Kyohan" there are several pictures of teachers who are still in this group. I met them during the celebrating anniversary of Taido and Genseiryu beginning of this year (Jan. 2005). Many nice teachers who still respect Sensei Shukumine, as should be in the relationship with teacher and student.

I was never involved with the sickness of Sensei Shukumine and I don't like to talk about his sickness. I met Mr. Shukumine one time and talked a little bit with him. In Okinawa I only met him from a distance. So I am sorry I can't anwer this question for I didn't have such a close relationship with Sensei Shukumine. -- 212.127.137.2 06:48, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I'm not intending to edit this, knowing nothing about the subject, but the article should be moved to Genseiryu to keep the case consistent. DJ Clayworth 01:11, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I did this. Maybe the preferred spelling is Gensei-Ryu, Gensei Ryu or Gensei-ryu, but GENSEIRYU is not. DJ Clayworth 01:47, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Lower case and remarks on vandalism

I see. I changed it to Lower case. No problem. But using the hyphen for the name is wrong. It is a way someone who is not familiar with the writing sometimes adhere to. By this way of writing the uninitiated can sometimes better relate to Genseiryu. But it has been changed according to your argumentation (DJ Clayworth).

Anyway, I agree that discussions are not vandalism, of course not. But when the same person, hiding behind multiple accounts created for the sole purpose of forcing his twisted views onto others by writing his false propaganda, which he very well know is untrue, then that is considered to be destructive - thus it is pure vandalism. For example. If I, say in math, claims that 2+2=10, then everybody would know this to be untrue. But because only a few here at the Misplaced Pages site actually know anything about Genseiryu, then I risk being accused of vandalism, simply because I correct the text into holding only true information. Back to my example, the only thing I do is changing the math from 2+2=10 into 2+2=4. We learned math in school, but unfortunately nobody learned Genseiryu in school. My background in Genseiryu can be seen on a great many sites all over the world. In Japan, only one organization (having roots back to the beginning in 1953) is admitted as Genseiryu Butokukai (see here: . If you follow the Genseiryu Butokukai site, you will end here: . Then, if you take a look at the branch section , you will se my name under Denmark. In this regard I see no Mario anywhere at all (or even Konno, who is Mario's instructor in Holland). As I have said on many occasions, written, posted on so many sites worldwide, the Dutch section of Genseiryu Butokukai is headed by Mr. Willem Varenkamp currently undergoing formal admission preparations after having earned his way through years of dedication to the Genseiryu art since the year 2000. No other person in Holland, regardless of claims saying otherwise, have ever been, is or will ever become members of the Genseiryu Butokukai organisation, unless they earn their way of course. But see for yourself at both the above and below mentioned sites.

Much more information on Genseiryu Butokukai can be found here: Denmark , Japan , Holland , Australia , India

Attempts to smear these facts, adding heresay or down right slander and other sorts of accusations to the text, hiding behind the acts of "undergoing major edit" etc. is in my dictionary only one thing: Vandalism. And the Misplaced Pages System Admins should put an end to this promptly, or simply remove any text regarding Genseiryu from their servers. As a courtesy to the folks not knowing what vandalism is, I took the liberty of finding an English to English dictionary about it. It says: VANDALISM (n), destruction, defacing, graffiti, mischief, ravaging, ruin, sacking, smashing, trashing, wreckage, wrecking. I believe destruction of truth is also vandalism, even though no handheld property was damaged.

Indeed, Mario has been "working" on his "major edit" for days now. I believe his "edit" is not an edit. It is just more lies and false propaganda, and putting this "keep hands off the text" flag on it, just keeps his text being public longer. It is simply a trick. He has been "working" on it for days now, but when will it ever be finished? I say, that Mario uses this "keep hands off", only as a way to keep me from editing it back to its original form, by removing his lies and false propaganda including slander and false accusations. Because of Mario's actions, of course I do not intend to sit back and "enjoy" the show. If indeed he had something truthful to say, I would prefer his edits to be without the slander and accusations as he is so keenly posting time and time again.

Lastly. I have been with the martial arts since the age of ten (I am now going on 34), and I have been awarded the rank of 5th dan as the only one in Europe ever. I guess I need not say much more than that? Mario is a student, who have som wicked idea of his own believes. He has not yet proved himself in any way within the Genseiryu community. His vandalism and accusations even got him banned for 48 hours at the GENSEIRYU® FORUM, , as he would not stop his slander and false propaganda there. I guess he hates it, but then he should adhere to the truth, and start acting as a sincere and responsible person, taking responsibility for all his actions regardless. I simply wonder when that would ever happen.

Well, well, Mr. Lee,

Trying to use your manipulative ways here to innocent people now? Haven't you already manipulated enough people? You want to create your little army of brainwashed people that work for you? I work on only 1 name on Misplaced Pages and that one is a REAL name also! You are using your pseudo "Lee", all the time, everywhere. And to whom belong all those names of those vandalists on the Dutch Misplaced Pages: Setia Hati, Zzaroc, Saiko, Thoar, and a couple of anonymous IP addresses???

Let me clear up some facts about Mr. Peter Lee and Genseiryu (Butokukai) here:

• Yes, he has the fifth dan (in Genseiryu Butokukai), that is not a lie
• He is NOT the only one awarded the 5th dan in Europe. Okay, maybe in Genseiryu Butokukai yes, but in Genseiryu Mr. Konno has 6th dan, awarded by the founder of the style, Sensei Shukumine himself!
• Lee got 4th dan in 1999 and 5th dan in 2003.
• It is unknown in what year he got the previous dans, he is very mysterious about that
• It is however known (by witnesses) that 4 years before he had 4th dan (so in 1995) he still had 4th KYU (=Blue belt)
• That means he went from blue belt to 4th dan in about 4 years time. Normally it takes at least 10 years to do this!
• His 5th dan is not acknowledged by the Danish Karate Federation
• No, you won't find my name or Mr. Konno's name on any of the sites mentioned by Peter Lee, because the sites he is mentioning are Genseiryu Butokukai sites and we don't do that style of karate. We are members of ('simply') Genseiryu.
• Mr. Konno is head of Genseiryu Netherlands, with a total of 4 clubs, situated in Amstelveen, Amsterdam, Anna Paulowna and Den Helder. Mr. Varenkamp is head of Genseiryu Butokukai Netherlands with only ONE school in Amstelveen.
• Mr. Konno is all over the pages of THE Japanese Genseiryu website (click links bottom left and middle). Thus, Mr. Lee saying Mr. Konno is not a member of Genseiryu is another lie! (or denial of fact)
• On that same site () you can find all the important people inside the World Genseiryu Organisation. Mr. Lee is not amongst them. Thus, saying he is so important for Genseiryu is again, a lie... He might be important to Genseiryu Butokukai, but not for Genseiryu.
• Some Genseiryu sites (real Genseiryu sites, not butokukai sites) that say absolutely nothing about any Mr. Lee, but giving more information about Genseiryu: Netherlands , Denmark , Finland , Spain and Japan

To proove my involvement and Mr. Konno's involvement in Genseiryu, take a look at pictures of the celebration of 55 years of Genseiryu and 40 years of Taido, where Mr. Lee was not even invited to!

Another proove of Mr. Konno's involvement in Genseiryu. This is an agreement signed by representatives of Genseiryu organisations, all joining in the World/European Genseiryu Karatedo Federation (W.G.K.F.). On this agreement you can see that Mr. Konno is actually the Director General of the W.G.K.F.!! Please also notice that Lee's name is not anywhere on that agreement...

So, Mr. Lee, stop manipulating everybody and stop telling you turn 2+2=10 into 2+2=4, 'cause it's the exact other way round!

I am making a NPOV article now, you will have your say on it when it is finished. I have NOT been "working" on this "major edit" for days now. The sign WIP was added on the 6th of June at 18:25 (), that is less than 48 hours ago and yesterday Misplaced Pages was down the WHOLE day, so I could not even work on it!

Don't you worry, you will be able to tell all your lies and all your 2+2=10 lines in the article... Just give me a chance to work it all out first! The more you disturb me with vandalising the article, and telling lies about me and sensei Konno (which I have to clarify then), the longer it takes you get your say! Thank you!!!!!!!!!! -- MarioR 01:53, 8 Jun 2005 (UTC)

BUTOKUKAI

Let me clear one thing up in regard to the Japanese language. The name Butokukai is the name of the dojo, in which Tosa sensei are conducting his teaching. Butokukai is a name on the same linesa are Shotokan, Genwakai, Shitokai, Genseikai, Gojukai etc. In Japanese the last character 'KAI' means gathering, thus you may translate it as dojo. In Denmark my dojo is called Kentokukai. Another dojo in Denmark is called Shojinkan. So these names are used to distinguish the actual dojo from any other dojo. In Japan, we have i.e. Shotokai, they are not doing a style called Shotokai. Their style is Shotokan. Also in Japan, Gojukai is not doing a style called Gojukai, but their style is Gojuryu etc. etc. The reason for i.e. Genwakai, Ryounkai etc. to use their name for both the organisation and style is unknown to me. But I would say that a fair guess would be, that at the time Genseiryu was identified with Tosa sensei, then these organisations chose to go their own way, thus changing their style to differ from that of Genseiryu. In order to avoid confusion, they simply identified their style as identical with the name of their organisation. Actually a smart way, especially if you consider the fact that if all these organisations went their own way, but all still calling their style of Genseiryu, then you would a great number of Genseiryu-styles. Stupid thing. There is only one Genseiryu out there. So anyone claiming that Butokukai is a style, simply has no knowledge of the Japanese language, and are trying to bring even more confusion to the readers.

KONNO's Organization

Even though Mario is extremely active in his ways to force his special opinions upon us all, confusing about who has the true Genseiryu lineage, and who does not, as well as who is what and where, I must say I have given up on talking sense into Mario. His is a lost case, for lack of a better word. In the text he simply say, that Tosa sensei has been ordered by law to always use Butokukai (see above) to Genseiryu. This is ridiculous. Konno's organisation was founded in 2002, but first really came off the start lane in 2003. So if this organisation should have any rights more important then those of Tosa sensei who have used the name since 1953, then no justice exist in the world. And as I have noted before, I consider the Japanese people one of the finest. Of course they are "only" human as the rest of us, so ............. Anyway, this statement is so ridiculous that I am still laughing after reading it. You should too. Peter Lee

Mario's background

You comment a lot on my 5th dan. Well, you are welcome. I find it funny, that you are so interested in my goals and achievements. I believe you are envious? Well, I know I was, when I entered the dojo for the first time in 1997 in Japan. I also wanted to be as skillful as the Japanese masters. But you see, instead of returning home quickly, just claiming some degree, then I returned to Japan on numerous occasions staying there for months and months each time training up to 8 hours each day every day. Since then a total of 8 years has passed, since my first trip to Japan, but 9 years has passed since I first met with Tosa sensei in 1996. Tosa sensei is in my very honest opinion the best instructor I have ever met. Nobody whatsoever just comes near his capacity and dedication. As a matter of fact I searched many years (about 6 years) for a suitable teacher before I kind of by fate, met Tosa sensei. Since then I have seen a great many Japanese masters perform, teach etc. and I have been invited to many dojos. I have never ever seen any teacher like Tosa sensei. Only one has in this time of honesty the ability to pop up in my mind, and that is the personal friend of Tosa sensei. His name is Fujimoto sensei. He is an 8th dan in Shito-ryu and he is among other things famous worldwide for his ability to split an apple into two equal parts, like it was done perfectly with a knife. Fujimoto sensei just does this with his hand (Nuki-te). And the apple is dangling freely from the ceiling in a thin thread. My point is, that even if I had been training only 3 months in total, then I would still have learned more than Mario would have done in 10 years (just used as an example for sake of the argument) learning from Konno or whomever. The reason simply being, that if you have a great teacher, it no longer matters how long you have been training, as long as you are practicing under the most productive conditions at all times. I never waste my time on ridiculous and timeconsuming things. I spent time only on training methods that can and does improve my ability and skill everytime I move. See, that is training. I am indeed very greatful for the opportunity to be the direct student of Tosa sensei, who learned directly from Shukumine sensei. I am thus the third generation of Genseiryu, if you consider the lineage. If what Mario says - just for arguments sake - is true, then at best, he would be about the 6th or 7th generation. But as we all very well know, Konno never learned anything from Tosa sensei (and he never was awarded any rank), and he never learned anything from Shukumine sensei (and he never was awarded any rank). Konno was a member of the Ryounkai, which did not teach Genseiryu. So talking about a lineage is kind of misplaced, when talking about Konno. Because no lineage is there. It is as simple as that. So please Mario, what is your next slander. I look forward to receiving it. This is fun. Added by User:Peter_Lee

Mr. Willem Varenkamp

Dear Mr. Lee (pseudonym?),

Nice to bring in Mr. Varenkamp. Mr. Varenkamp was a student of Sensei Konno. So if he learned something he learned this from Sensei Konno. I think sensei Konno regrets this but who can foresee so much dishonesty with one of your students. So if you say Sensei Konno is not doing Genseiryu and he is, where did he learned this, he did'nt go to Japan he only went 2 or 3 times to your children trainingcamp. Is it in your opinion so easy to learn Genseiryu? But I forget he is doing Genseiryu Butokukai, which he is not mentioning by the way maybe that is easy to learn. I should be because after 4 years training you can receive a 4th dan from being 4th KYU.

---Well, once again you show evidence of reading impairment. Mr. Varenkamp has invited me to Holland on a few occasions, as well as he together with his students has been to Denmark many times. This is just more slander, the only thing you are good at. Mr. Varenkamp has indeed cut his links to Konno, that was hard, but Mr. Varenkamp is a brave man, now finally admitting to both himself and his students, that Konno is in no way what he claims to be. That certainly is bravery. Especially concidering your statement, that you have difficulties admitting your sensei having flaws. I guess you are not a brave man. Just because you are not, you should not slander those of us who at least try to walk the true and honest path, regardless of any attacks always conducted by you and those like you. You should change your paths as well. The world would indeed be a much better place, if you did. Added by User:Peter_Lee