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The picture shown on this article as kashmiris is not suitable. Clearly these people are looking non-Koshur speaking people whereas the article is about koshur speaking kashmiris.

"related groups" info removed from infobox

For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 23:42, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for leaving a note. I don't think it should be a problem. The Behnam 05:06, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Ethnic Kashmiris look very different compared to the normal populous of India. They have light skin, hair color ranges from red to light brown and have eye colors ranging from blue to brown. Gujjars and Dogri found towards the south in Jammu are of darker skin tone and resemble their Punjabi neighbors whilst the Ladakhis of the North East resemble their Tibetan neighbors.

The reason why I removed the above extract was because I deemed it irrelevant; this article is not a comparison of two ethnic groups. Also, no reference has been provided.

I have removed certain aspects because, being a student of the discipline of History, I find it extremely insensitive to reach theories and conclusions without confirming the people involved. In this issue in particular, I felt that the Kashmiris from the western section of Kashmir- known as Azad Kashmir would not agree to the least with some of the mumble jumble that recent theorists have conjured together, in somewhat a discriminative way. It would help to ask the Azad Kashmir peoples to tell us a little about their culture and history; they are a people of their own identity, they know better about their history than we do, ratherthan make up what we'd like to hear or makes sense to us, you cannot let you imagination loose upon such subjects and allow it to get the better of oneself.

Kashmir history

The western part of Kashmir, known as Azad Kashmir was only part of kashmir for 100 years, Jammu for just over 150, ladakh, Baltistan and Gilgit Agency also for over 150 years. When talking about 'Kashmiri people' most in my opinion refer to 'ethnic kashmiris' who ONLY occupy the Valley of Kashmir (Indian occupied). Historically Kashmir has only been the Kashmir Valley (for 2000+ years). To my understanding they are culturaly/linguistically/geneticaly different to the rest and are the only 'ethnic kashmiris'. I propose that this article focus more on them as they are the ones who have been 'Kashmiri' for over 2000 years and not the Ladakhis,Baltis,Mirpuris,Azad kashmiris. It has been referenced that the Azad kashmiri people are mainly Punjabi and Gujjar/Pahari which are also considered as castes of Punjabi. Whereas the kashmiris of the Valley are very distintcly different. The history of the Azad kashmiris is visible in their linguists/cultural heritage, and it has a very large affinity to Punjabis. So as the Human rights watch reference states, they are Punjabi peoples who have a very rich history seperate to that of the Kashmiris in the Valley.

Difference between 'Ethnicity' and 'Nationality'

I think the problem here is that people from the current day 'Azad kashmir' refer to them as Kashmiris as an ethnicity which they are not. They are Kashmiri only by citizenship, but as the state of Kashmir does not exist it should not be applied to them. The people from the Valley however are ethnic kashmiris, with kashmiri being their identity. So perhaps they feel threatened by the highjacking of their identity by Punjabis of Azad Kashmir who falsely claim Kashmiri heritage. The land known as Azad Kashmir was only made part of Kashmir after the Treaty of Amritsar was signed.

Difference between intellectuals and witch doctors

I am an ethnic Kashmiri from the Vale of Kashmir, speaking Koshur and I think you are being prejudiced, there has always been a link with our fellow Kashmiris, who speak Pahari and are not Punjabi, they speak differently. I don't know much about anthropology, but you cannot say whatever may be the case I know they're not Punjabi, Its like saying the Scots are English, even though they both speak English, yet the Azad Kashmir people speak Pahari and the Punjabis speak Punjabi/Potohari. I sometimes wonder if these people with weird theories about the fellow Kashmiris in Azad Kashmir still think that the world is flat too. Some theories say Koshur is indo-Aryan anyway http://www.koshur.org/ , just like the Kasmiris in Azad Kashmir speak Pahari which is an Indo Aryan language too. Please research further with proper resources, I want us to be clear.

Re. Difference between intellectuals and witch doctors

I think this article needs to be better set out. Kashmiri people consist of Gujjars/Pahari people from the Poonch district, ethnic kashmiris from the Valley and small communities in Jammu, the Dogras of Jammu, the Mirpuris of Azad Kashmir, Sudhuns of Muzafrabad, Ladakhis, Baltistani people, Gilgit agency people. It would probably be better if all these peoples had their own sub headings, that is if we are to talk about people who used to live in the former Princely state of Kashmir.

Although it is undecided whether koshur is Indo-Aryan or not, a language classification can not be used to determine ethnicity. Bengali, Gujarati, Punjabi are all Indo-Aryan languages, but are very different people. Also some classify Pahari as a dialect of Punjabi, but again a language can not be used to determine ethnicity.

More resources are contributors are needed.

Did Alexander go to Azad Kashmir?

I have come to realise that at around 50 percent of the people I know from Azad Kashmir, tend to be very European looking ( lighter eyes/hair), especially those from Mirpur... is it due to the Greek influence, or some other influence? Also did Alexander reach the other side of Kashmir, I also speak Koshur and wanted to know is there any outside influence upon our language, e.g from any past empires?

I would be very grateful if you could answer this.

Dardic contest

While looking through the source that the IP who keeps adding "Dear Editor" sections added, I can't see why describing Kashmiri as "Dardic" is such a problem. You (IP editor) have claimed that it should say "Aryan" instead, and I was guessing that by "Aryan" you meant something like "Indo-Aryan" since that use of "Aryan" would not be correct. Anyway, the very source that you provided describes "Dardic" and an Indo-Aryan language, so I have no idea what the problem is here. The Behnam 17:07, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

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