Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 14:29, 10 August 2007

Please leave messages here - instead of on the front page. --Kim D. Petersen 09:25, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Playground: User:KimDabelsteinPetersen/Temporary User:KimDabelsteinPetersen/Sandbox

Created articles: Sami Solanki, Jan Esper

Apocalyse Cancelled deleted

The discussion at Misplaced Pages:Miscellany for deletion/User:KimDabelsteinPetersen/Apocalyse Cancelled has been closed, resulting in the referenced user page being deleted. —Doug Bell  10:19, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Global Warming Controversy

Looks like you & I are in agreement on this topic. Good edit HERE. --The Outhouse Mouse 18:36, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Email

Kim, please check whatever email account you have associated with Misplaced Pages. I sent a note about something that may be of interest to you. Raymond Arritt 04:30, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

An Automated Message from HagermanBot

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Clouds at Mars

Hi Kim, I saw your helpful edit at Mars Global Warming. I just wanted to point out that there are clouds at Mars but that they are relatively thin and infrequent. Hence any effects from cosmic rays would be negligible. So our implicit main argument (global warming at earth cannot be compared to our current understanding of Mars' climate) still stands. --Jespley 02:25, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the information - guess i have to read up on that one :-) --Kim D. Petersen 02:27, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you!!

Kim, I had not found the Wegman report actually, the links that I was able to locate seemed to have gone bad. Thanks for your help. Mishlai 14:59, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

(original message moved to from user page to this talk page) Mishlai 17:35, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Commons POTY identity confirmation

I confirm I am the same user as 80.62.90.39 --Kim D. Petersen 15:03, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Global Warming edits violate WP policies

Please review WP:AWW and WP:OR. Please make sure that whenever you modify a controversial article that you avoid slanted words like "numerous" "few" and "consensus" without a direct citation. Thank you. --Tjsynkral 16:32, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

It does not fall under WP:AWW because the wordings are documented on the subpages - the subpages are created because the evidence/citations are long and complex. It cannot be described as WP:OR because the sources on the subpages are leading direct support for the sentences - its not WP:SYN for exactly the same reasons. You are adviced to read the archived discussions instead of trying to reopen something that has been discussed to an extreme length already. --Kim D. Petersen 21:52, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but subpages cannot be used as references. ~ UBeR 23:17, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

UBeR - of course they can - the only alternative is to have massive monolithic pages that each provide the same points and references all over again. If at any point a section of a page is becoming to massive - then you have to either cut down the section or start a subpage (and do a summary) if the subject is sufficiently important to the page. --Kim D. Petersen 01:16, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for showing your complete ignorance and disregard for Misplaced Pages policy. Let the record show you fail to comprehend the fundamental principles of how Misplaced Pages gathers information. ~ UBeR 02:46, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Applause - thanks for not providing basis for your statement - and engaging in less than civil discorse.

Here is my take on a monolithic version:

While this conclusion has been endorsed by numerous scientific societies and academies of science, there are few scientists who disagree about the primary causes of the observed warming

Now i could add more to the first statement - and i could continue with the second. But i think this shows my point. --Kim D. Petersen 03:28, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Question about subpages

You edit with these words: (certain => numerous (as the reference shows), insert "a few" (again as the reference shows). If you want these out - then you have to edit the subpages - otherwise you are asking to prove a negative.)

I have seen you reference subpages before. What subpages are you discussing and why do they have to be revised before this one can be?--Blue Tie 22:51, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Numerous is established on Scientific_opinion_on_climate_change, which is directly linked.

A few is established on Scientists_opposing_the_mainstream_scientific_assessment_of_global_warming, which is directly linked.

The reason that all of this are on subpages is that the references would fill to much on the current page. It's been a long time since these two where forked off - exactly to meet this problem.

Please refer to negative proof to see why it is not possible to prove this part - but only to disprove it. --Kim D. Petersen 23:01, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

It's not negative proof. It has to be proof that a verifiable and reliable source has specifically stated "most scientists" and "few scientist." That is totally dissimilar from negative proof. ~ UBeR 23:18, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry i disagree. That most scientists agree with the the consensus is either true, and the subpages are very much a demonstration of this - or can be demonstrated as being false, and even quite easily - find any number of academies/statements to balance the (currently) overwhelming number described on the Scientific_opinion_on_climate_change subpage to counter the academies statement. Or find any number of scientists to include on the Scientists_opposing_the_mainstream_scientific_assessment_of_global_warming so that you can demonstrate that the statement of "few" is incorrect (btw. "relatively few" or "minority" is my preferred wording which are accurate and quantifiable wordings). --Kim D. Petersen 00:31, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but your synthesis is not valid here at Misplaced Pages. ~ UBeR 00:34, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

UBeR its only a synthesis if you take out of context things and compile them. These pages are specific to the questions: Is there a consensus / a prevalent scientific opinion - and Is there a general opposition against the consensus / majority view. It is btw. not difficult to document each - you can just pick the references from the subpages and put them on the page as documentation. This is a question of either having a lean page or a monolithic page. --Kim D. Petersen 00:40, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

It's synthesis when you do not have a source saying "most scientist believe" and "few scientists believe." Your subjective opinion of what is few and what is a lot is not welcome here. If you don't have a source saying it, then you have no right to add it yourself. And by no source, I mean you cannot use Misplaced Pages as a source. My version ("While this conclusion has been endorsed by scientific societies and academies of science, there are scientists who disagree about the primary causes of the observed warming.") Is clearly neutral and is not synthesis. The same cannot be said about your contributions. ~ UBeR 00:52, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry UBeR - your sentence is misleading (and thus not neutral). --Kim D. Petersen 01:00, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for answering my question. Now I understand. But I disagree with you. I do not think that the subpage for the Scientific Opinion on Climate Change supports the use of weasel words on this page. And numerous is too non-specific. Even worse is the notion of "few". That the "subpage" describes only a "few" does not mean that "only a few" exist. That would be a logical fallacy. Neither of these two words are objectively supported but few is especially weak. Both are weasel words. --Blue Tie 00:39, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Blue Tie, i agree that the subpage only describes a subset of opposition - but there is a large jump from assuming that the true opposition is more than 2 orders of magnitude larger - and that still constitutes a minority. As i've said before - i personally prefer either "minority" or "relatively few" both of which are accurate and quantifiable. As for the academies - the documentation is very solid - but it would be silly to include each reference on the page, when the subpage is there. It both makes it easier to examine the basis for a reader - and make it easier for subsequent editors to dispute it. --Kim D. Petersen 00:53, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

3RR

Please refrain from undoing other people's edits repeatedly. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing Misplaced Pages. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions in a content dispute within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. Rather than reverting, discuss disputed changes on the talk page. The revision you want is not going to be implemented by edit warring. Thank you. ~ UBeR 23:21, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

And how exactly do you calculate 2 contributions (yes - two blocks of edits and ) as violating or even coming close to violating 3RR? --Kim D. Petersen 23:28, 25 March 2007 (UTC) (edited --Kim D. Petersen 23:37, 25 March 2007 (UTC))

I calculate because I count the last 24 hours, not the last 10 minutes. ~ UBeR 23:39, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

That is not an answer because those two blocks are the only contributions i've made in 24 hours (or even 80 for that matter - and iirc even for the whole of March.). --Kim D. Petersen 23:41, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

I count to the contrary. ~ UBeR 23:43, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

How? I need to know - because i do not want to violate 3RR. So please state your evidence - if this is a technicality that i've overlooked - then i need to know so that i do not violate it unwittingly. --Kim D. Petersen 23:45, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

The article is locked anyway. ~ UBeR 23:47, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry but that still does not explain anything. I do need an answer please. Otherwise it seems that you are trying to intimidate. I'm assuming that there is a technicality that i've overlooked. But from 3RR - a block of edit is considered one edit - and unrelated edits are not counted - so once more - please elaborate on this technicality. --Kim D. Petersen 23:51, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

I've elaborated here. ~ UBeR 00:00, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you - that will hopefully describe the technicalities. --Kim D. Petersen 00:04, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

3RR report

If anything, I would've probably marked that incomplete, and asked Uber to provide specific "previous versions" reverted to. From looking at it, only number 4 and 5 are reverts, the rest just look like edits to me. Seraphimblade 00:18, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes because you have look at it from a larger context (i.e. further back). Just because someone doesn't mark "rv." in their edit summary, it doesn't mean they're not reverts. One, she reverted Blue Tie's edits that removed "most" and "few," clear weasel words. Second, she's reverting the attribution of the IPCC's claim (the appropriate way, per WP:V) to "scientific consensus," which is not verified by the source (WP:SYN, if you will). Third, she's removing attribution again, this time from the EIA. Sixth, she's reverting my edits I made that were correct to her version which is not supported by the ref (even after it was discussed on the talk page). ~ 00:29, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

UBeR i'm willing to acknowledge that each of the 2 blocks can be considered as reverts - thats acceptable. But the fact that i did each edit seperately is not acceptable as documentation - i could have done each block as one single monolithic edit, but that would have decreased the amount of explanation i could do in "edit summary". This is not trying to dodge a technicality - if you look at the edit timings you can see that i did them in succession. --Kim D. Petersen 00:36, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

The rule states, "An editor must not perform more than three reverts, in whole or in part, on a single page within a 24-hour period. A revert means undoing the actions of another editor, whether involving the same or different material each time." Most disturbing though is that you chose not to discuss anything on the talk page, but rather reverted six times. Do you see how reverting six times violates the rule that says you cannot revert more than three times? I don't know how I can make this any clearer. ~ UBeR 00:40, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

No UBeR i do not see this - the 3RR page specifically also states that: "Note that consecutive reverts by one editor are often treated as one revert for the purposes of this rule". And i believe that this is exactly what my edits are. --Kim D. Petersen 00:43, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

They aren't. ~ UBeR 00:44, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Can you at least describe why they are not to be considered this way? If you are right - then i'll have to do monolithic edits in the future - and never try to explain each.... Because small edits may be considered reverts by your definition of the rule. How is anyone going to be able to do more than 3 edits to a page in case you are right? Each edit may be considered a revert after all. --Kim D. Petersen 01:04, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, the page is protected now anyway, so it rather is a moot point. Uber, generally the way I see it, is if you can't be bothered to go find the supposed "previous versions" that have been reverted to, I can't be bothered to do it either. Without any specific previous versions cited, most of them just look like regular edits. I would strongly encourage both of you to put this time into trying to resolve the dispute over the article, so that it won't need to stay protected for too long. Seraphimblade 00:44, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I will get you the previous versions after I'm done watching this program. ~ UBeR 00:54, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Seraphimblade the point may seem mute in the context of the page - but in the context of my edits its rather important. Since i'm stuck here with an (apparently) faulty interpretation of what you can or cannot do - and how to edit without being blocked.... Sorry to be insistant on this - but i really am troubled by this. --Kim D. Petersen 01:07, 26 March 2007 (UTC) comment - if i follow UBeR's view about the 6 reverts (i've done exactly 7 edits on the page in March) - it seems to me that when you edit something (even small things) then its a revert - this (to me) looks as if you can only do 3 total edits to a page or subsection without the risk of being slammed with a WP:3RR violation. --Kim D. Petersen 01:13, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Alright, for clarity-you would not have been blocked anyway, you only reverted twice. Hope that clears it up? Seraphimblade 01:15, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Seraphimblade - thank you. That was my own interpretation as well. (again sorry to have been insistant - but it does impact how i can or cannot edit :-)). --Kim D. Petersen 01:18, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Note that unlike you, Uber actually has broken 3RR on the GW page. His report of you was probably a smokescreen to disguise this William M. Connolley 08:45, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the information. Unfortunatly it seems that the GW page dispute is going to be yet another tedious discussion over consensus. --Kim D. Petersen 08:52, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't think there is anything to discuss. There is a lot of trolling going on there which should not be encouraged. Both BT and Uber should have been blocked for 3RR; had they been the page probably wouldn't have needed protection William M. Connolley 09:04, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Probably correct. Btw. can i ask where the rule that you cannot refer to subpages for documentation is? I've been looking for such a rule - but cannot seem to find it. It seems to me (as you can see above) that in some cases this would require you to have monolithic pages, that restate the same things again and again. --Kim D. Petersen 09:09, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

The wikilawyers are fond of making up and/or overinterpreting rules, when it suits their POV. I'm not aware of any such rule: who asserts its existence, and in what context? William M. Connolley 09:29, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Talk:Global warming#Page protection - Summary of current issues with this article 3rd comment (i presume it is UBeR - but its unsigned and i don't want to traverse the history to find the specifics) - this appears to be the whole crux of the dispute... --Kim D. Petersen 10:03, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't believe it. I've pulled it out to see who defends it though. It will probably just degenerate into another pointless round of lawyering William M. Connolley 10:23, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

William is wrong on several points including the 3RR violation, so nevermind him. I cannot believe you choose to ignore such a fundamental policy. It is stated clear as day. Lawyering, in my opinion, is OK so long as those people who choose to ignore the policies can at least grasp the ideas Misplaced Pages has for creating its encyclopedia.

Lets have a read, shall we? "The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth. 'Verifiable' in this context means that any reader should be able to check that material added to Misplaced Pages has already been published by a reliable source. Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or it may be removed." Some might assert that this is simple "overinterpreting," but lets see what Mr. Wales himself has to say about it. "I can NOT emphasize this enough. There seems to be a terrible bias among some editors that some sort of random speculative 'I heard it somewhere' pseudo information is to be tagged with a 'needs a cite' tag. Wrong. It should be removed, aggressively, unless it can be sourced." So what constitutes original research? "Original research includes editors' personal views, political opinions, and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that appears to advance a position." Saying "most scientist believe" and "few scientists believe "without any source saying such, your are engaging in original research. (This statement applies directly to what I just said: "It introduces an analysis or synthesis of established facts, ideas, opinions, or arguments in a way that builds a particular case favored by the editor, without attributing that analysis or synthesis to a reputable source.") Simple as that.

Most importantly (and as such, I will bold it for you), Misplaced Pages states it in fairly simple English, so I hope you can understand the following message: "Just as underlying facts must be sourced, claims of consensus must be sourced in the presence of differences of opinion. Claims that 'most' or 'all' scientists, scholars, ministers (or rabbis or imams etc.) of a religious denomination, voters, etc. hold a view require sourcing, particularly on matters that are subject to dispute. In the absence of a reliable source of consensus or majority view, opinions should be identified as those of the sources." Do you two understand now?

So there's also been some argument about how I can put some bracket around some words and suddenly those words become true. For example, I could just write "John Adams was born in 1735," and leave it at that because that Misplaced Pages article SAYS he was born in 1735 SO IT MUST BE TRUE! Wrong. That is not how Misplaced Pages works, I'm afraid. Misplaced Pages is a tertiary source (if you don't believe me, check WP:OR). Fortunately for our readers (unfortunately for you two), Misplaced Pages does not allow tertiary sources: "All articles on Misplaced Pages should be based on information collected from published primary and secondary sources." Misplaced Pages calls this fundamental to writing an encyclopedia, so I don't quite understand how you two choose to so easily ignore it. This isn't about building a monolithic article, as you proclaim, but rather building a fair article. I hope you understand. ~ UBeR 17:01, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

This is yet more making up of rules (and evading 3RR, but thats elsewhere). The JA example is wrong. Uber seems to want to turn wiki into an endless repetition with no sub articles William M. Connolley 17:45, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Making up rules? They're written here and here! These quotes are not made up. Nor are they taken out of context, which is why I give you the source of these for you to actually read over the whole policy. If you chose to ignore them, so be it. ~ UBeR 17:54, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

FYI

Regarding this edit, this may add some context. Guettarda 04:56, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

My appologies, Mr. Petersen

Assuming your username is also your given name, I wish to apologize for using the female gender when referring to you. It was foolish mistake, overlooking the fact Kim is often used for males as well as females. Mr. Arritt informed me that I was incorrectly referring to you as female, so I apologize for that and meant no insult. ~ UBeR 20:12, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Appology accepted. Are you also btw. going to appologize for your mistake about 3RR - and your comment here which is also incorrect? (follow the timelines please). --Kim D. Petersen 16:06, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Todd Shelly

I'm almost certain it's the same "Tom Shelly", and I can't see any harm in disclosing that the guy is a university researcher. We need to save our reverts for the important stuff. ;-) Raymond Arritt 01:13, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

For what it's worth - i have the feeling its the same guy as well - but i don't believe that we can attribute it on a feeling. And no - i can't see any harm in the disclosure either. --Kim D. Petersen 01:17, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Gray

hurricanes are very much part of the climate - and atmospheric science (one of) the basics of climate science. - arguably Gray is a meteorologist not a climatologist. But I agree the edit was POV William M. Connolley 16:27, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Had there been more space in the summary, i would have added that while the edit may be factually correct, it leans in a direction so that it provides a specific POV ;) --Kim D. Petersen 22:22, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism on TGGWS

Please do not delete content from articles on Misplaced Pages, as you did to The_Great_Global_Warming_Swindle. Your edits appear to be vandalism and have been reverted. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. Dispute tags are an important way for people to show that there are problems with the page. Do not remove them unless you are sure that all stated reasons for the dispute are settled.

Erm - sorry Tjsynkral is that supposed to be intimidating? I suppose you are talking about this edit explained here ? I think that you should make the the case before WP:AIV or WP:ANI instead of tagspamming here. --Kim D. Petersen 08:30, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

National Union of Mineworkers

Hi Kim, I don't see the problem adding the name of the documentary that Lawson appeared on when he was suggesting that Global Warming was being hyped (used as an excuse if you will) to close down pits and promote cleaner nuclear energy. I would have to watch it again though. You're right about the middle east, he did say that, I remember that and didn't edit it myself.

Kim, the conservative party during the 80's and mid 90's was hardly reknowned for their man mad global warming fears. I honestly believe they did see it as a way to close down pits and promote cleaner fuels.....and break up the NUM to boot... --Dean1970 19:34, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Dean that may be your view - but you are putting words into Lord Lawson's mouth - his exact quote is:

Your (or someone elses version) quotes him for: "the theory of anthropogenic global warming was exaggerated to promote cleaner nuclear power over coal, thus covertly weakening the NUM's influence in government energy policy." - this is not something that i can find any basis for in the text.

Personally i don't think this documentary is notable enough to be mentioned on the NUM page - but since its there - it actually has to be correct. --Kim D. Petersen 20:04, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree, hence I cleaned up the grammar --Dean1970 20:43, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Kim, You're right, no where in the transcript is the word "exaggerated" to be found, its possible POV on my part.

Though, the transcript doesn't really visualise the points made in the documentary. The protracted and often times violent miners strike was in a way the genesis for the IPCC, because for the first time a Government took the theory of man made global warming seriously. It may well just be a coincidence that at this time this government fearing for the future of ice-caps in the north pole decided to look into nuclear energy (over coal) as a way of saving them, I don't know. Regardless of ones own views, I think it merits a mention on the NUM page. I agree with you that Lawson cited both the NUM and the middle east as a cause for concern over energy security but I thought that the UK was actually a Net exporter of Oil thanks to the North Sea, or at least the reserves they extracted supplied its energy needs. I apologise for rabbiting on about this, the article as it stands looks fine. --Dean1970 21:21, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Global warning

More of a recommendation, but I had to use the pun somewhere. Please be careful about making reverts on global warming, as the edit conflict is still hot. I sugest you try to avoid making rapidfire edits at all, even if they aren't reverts, since it can't be possible to carry on whole discussions between them. It just heats up the dispute. Instead, try staying just at the articles talk page until an agreement is reached, even on some small point, and only then make the change on the article. Thanks. Dmcdevit·t 02:50, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm - i thought that was exactly what i've done... All edits (except one deletion - which wasn't controversial and immediatly explained on the talk page) has been updates of quotations. (actually one removal of linkspam). But i thank you for the warning anyways - it's appreciated. I have followed the debate both on the talk-page and on the WP/AN pages, so i'm well aware of the dangers :)

Fwiw i believe that this kind of oversight is needed. --Kim D. Petersen 03:19, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

3RR

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions in a content dispute within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content which gains a consensus among editors. Thank you

Beckyvolley 22:24, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

August H. Auer Jr.

Your recent edit summary implies that you deleted the "leading scientists" language based upon your own original research. Can you please explain the criteria you used for "leading scientists"? The language you changed was supported by a reference.--Africangenesis 17:56, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunatly the reference isn't reliable. It doesn't adhere to WP:RS. Its an editorial/whatever on an internet/voice over IP providers site. Please reference sources that are reliable and have an editorial process that can be considered more than just a reprinter of press-releases etc. So what i did was to look over the list and check if it was even close to true - and guess what? It wasn't. (which was WP:OR on my part - but supported by the WP:RS missing - it has to be striked. --Kim D. Petersen 18:03, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

I will have to remember the "close to true" criterion. Wouldn't you have to be familiar with the New Zealand scientific community to be informed when making this analysis? The New Zealand Press Association should be considered the source of the article. --Africangenesis 18:09, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

What you now have added is a press-release. Still not a WP:RS. Remove the "leading scientists" part - which is what i'm arguing about. Its WP:WEASEL - and "real world" check will tell you that its not even close to true. So unless you really are out to misinform the readers - and thereby engaging in POV pushing - i suggest that you find a neutral wording. --Kim D. Petersen 18:21, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Is the New Zealand Herald reference a press release? What is the indication? They even list it under "National News", which would seem to have required editorial judgement regarding its import. I am willing to learn.--Africangenesis 18:34, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

The NZ Herald is publishing (unedited) from the NZPA. No indications of writer - no indication of source. Try to use WP:COMMON... Is it correct that they are "leading"? Or have you simply zoomed in on a word/sentence - and are trying to push it? May i suggest that you try to look up the various scientists? Could you give me a reason for accepting this - as more than just POV pushing? Explain to me please what defines "leading" and secondly explain to me "who" is saying that they are leading.... --Kim D. Petersen 19:04, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

The NZPA is a news service, like the AP or UPI. Their stories are often reprinted verbatim, and sometimes have bylines and sometimes don't. The story does not read like a press release, or have the background material or disclaimers that press releases usually have. Whatever it originally was, the NZ Herald, a reputable source, has vouched for it. I don't need news stories or a consensus statement to push "my" POV, I just follow the evidence in peer reviewed journals.--Africangenesis 04:03, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

The date format used in New Zealand is day/month/year - 10 June 2007.Your expression as year/month/day is not correct! - (203.211.79.131 21:34, 11 June 2007 (UTC))

If you set up your preferences, to the desired dateformat - it is correct. The format ] will render according to your preferences. --Kim D. Petersen 23:48, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Patrick Michaels

Dear user Kim D. Petersen: You wrote on my user talk page:

Would you please stop deleting something with the comment: "Remove unsourced opinion" - when the reference is quite clear at the end of the text - and if you'd bothered to check it - you'd find that the paragraph is (almost) verbatim from it. It's attributable and is from a reliable source. --Kim D. Petersen 17:00, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Dear user Kim D. Petersen: Sorry if I seemed to be doubting your word on the sources for the material on Tom Wigly. I did not doubt that Gelbspan referred to Wigley as "one of the world's leading climate scientists", I merely disagree that, as written, the sentence made it clear that this honorific description was clearly Gelbspan's conclusion, since only the statement by Wigley that you included in quotes was clearly from The Heat is On, with the introductory material, as I said, being in the "voice of Misplaced Pages." I was reluctant to repair the paragraph because I thought that perhaps the phrase "one of the world's leading climate scientists" might be a direct quote and should be presented as such, but I had no easy access to the source to check this. I gather from your remarks on my user talk page (i.e. it is almost verbatim) that it does not belong in quotes, so I have left it as is and merely reorganized the paragraph to make the source of all the conclusions presented unambiguous. —Blanchette 04:08, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Blanchette - the reason that i said (almost) is because i haven't checked it letter for letter - but from what i can see its entirely verbatim. And as i've said on the talk pages - its not Gelbspan who is saying this - again i have no idea where you are getting that idea from - but the article from the Pacific Institute that are stating this in the 2nd last paragraph - about the authors.

Please, Please, Please - read the actual reference - thats what its there for - since you keep mixing Gelbspan into this - i have no choice but to assume that you haven't bothered to do so. Please do. --Kim D. Petersen 08:41, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Okay, Kim D. Petersen, now I know what you're talking about. I'm sorry I didn't understand what you meant sooner. I managed to find the source of the entire paragraph in question in the Michaels article. Because of the way you (I mean someone) formatted the paragraph in the Michaels article it was not obvious which reference (Gelbspan or Pacific Institute) went with which piece of information. I have reformatted it as a block quote since the entire paragraph (minus their inline citation) was taken from the Pacific Institute article. My only change was to replace the Institute's inline citation of Gelbspan with an ellipsis and a Misplaced Pages-style reference. In the future, maybe you (anyone) would consider using block quotes for this kind of material written by others, and help people like me avoid confusion. The block quote icon is the second from the right on the edit toolbar. Thanks! —Blanchette 21:41, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Mediation

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Request for Mediation

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An Inconvenient Truth

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions in a content dispute within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content which gains a consensus among editors. GreenJoe 02:45, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

As you can see there is already such a warning on my page - so it really is unneccessary to bring this policy to my attention. I'm fully aware of the consequences, and the reasons for this policy - and i agree with it. Which is why i haven't edited the page - since that time. --Kim D. Petersen 02:54, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

George Monbiot

Thamks for your comments on the edir conflict. You have done what I was trying to do in any case. Philip Cross 01:03, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

You don't seem to have warned anyone else

How can I have an edit war all by myself? BTW, have you thought about that Roesch email? It should have you reversing your vote on my proposed qualification of the models, and perhaps adding another cite or two.--Africangenesis 06:21, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

You've reverted 3 times on Global warming within the last 24 hours - thats the reason for the warning. Such a warning is standard - and should only be given to an editor once. To make him/her aware of the policy. Since i couldn't see one on your page - i placed one there.

I haven't changed my view on your interpretation of Roesch - and i agree with WMC and RA that its OR. --Kim D. Petersen 06:27, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Asserting OR is rather convenient, if they don't have to back it up. The real issue is that Roesch's truth is inconvenient.--Africangenesis 06:59, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Not really - what you are doing is extrapolating from Roesch - and that is OR. Unless you can find sources that do this extrapolation. --Kim D. Petersen 07:24, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Saying a more positive albedo reflects more sun is not extrapolation. I was careful not to grab for everything I should be able to get.--Africangenesis 08:14, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Notability

Kim, please see my comments here. Thanks. —Viriditas | Talk 20:11, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

What is your problem? Their are alot of things you should be looking at to change instead of taking away something that is not only unique as far as I can tell but also a great way of performing individual action. Please edit things in the sandbox instead! I dispise people who consider themselves experts in what readers will like to be informed of.

Individual and political action on climate change

Saw your comment on William's page. That article is a mess; the mitigation articles as a whole are a mess. Someone should clean them up (I'm not especially interested in the topic). Raymond Arritt 16:06, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I had the page on my watchlist for some reason, and investigated it. I have to admit that i've shunned these pages as well. --Kim D. Petersen 16:22, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Sea tmep rise

he is a professor, too smart to say what he said unless he meant it. tggws does cover his claims about programme. even quotes by subjects who later claim they were duped by the premise of a documentary can be used. Also, Durkin has counterclaimed that Wunsch was not duped. It's one mans word against another, something for courts to settle, not me, not you. By deleting it, Durkin is being called a liar, even though no court has found him guilty, only some editors on wikipedia. Wunsch claims, Durkin claims...i'm not bothered, this is wikipedia, i'm quoting from a documentary and adding to an article with refs to an article, not playing referee to their claims. --Dean1970 12:50, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Since he himself (Wunsch) is saying that he is quoted out of context - then whatever context you are putting the quote into, would be WP:SYN. --Kim D. Petersen 13:06, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

That explains "published" quotes. This is a documentary. It didn't appear to me that what he actually said in the docu was being dubbed. I'm sure he stands by what he said about ocean temp variation, the 'memory' aspect, a change in ocean temp can be distorted as a current event when the time-lag (of several hundred or thousand years) is not taken into account. --Dean1970 13:35, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Dean have you ever heard of a concept called "editing"? It can be used (and according to Wunsch was) to quote people out of context. You have no idea what context Wunsch is stating this - he could be talking about local or regional changes (which is very likely) - or he could be talking about global. He could also be talking about deep ocean temperatures - which is also possible and likely.

Baseline is: Wunsch is pissed about being quoted out of context - and misrepresented. He has stated this quite clearly - as well as creating a section on his website with the specific purpose of discrediting TGGWS . So please do not quote him from this film - as it is documentable that Wunsch doesn't stand behind this films representation of his views. --Kim D. Petersen 14:16, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

WagTV claim they did not misrepresent Wunsch. --Dean1970 14:24, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

So what. Would expect them to state otherwise? Raymond Arritt 14:26, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't matter what I think. It's what I know. The dispute between Wunsch and WagTV is unresolved with one claiming they were misrepresented and the other claiming otherwise. I'm not quoting from a published article. I'm quoting from what Wunsch claimed about Ocean temp variation, I fail to see where i'm misrepresenting his words! Unless of course Wunsch is wrong about ocean temp variation. Nah, I think it has more to do with me editing it into the section about sea-temp. --Dean1970 14:39, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

The person making a documentary is the director. The person responsible for making the final cut. The docu is 75 mins long, some things have to be deleted to work it around and satisfy allocated time-slot given by broadcaster. --Dean1970 14:43, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Dean, you are building up a strawman. Its simple: Wunsch is the absolute undisputed authority on his own views - and Wunsch is stating that his views are misrepresented and quoted out of context, in the source that you are using. Conclusion: Do not use that source to represent Wunsch's views. --Kim D. Petersen 14:54, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Fine, I back down and add it to a series of edits that are ommited for reasons I believe are personal. Like the one on tggws article itself where I added that some scientists don't fully acknowledge the role of the Sun, I didn't pluck that one out of thin air either. Nigel Calder claimed that there was going to be a serious discussion about the role of the Sun with regards to global warming that was put on the back burner because and I quote Calder:"They came out with the first big report which predicted climatic disaster as a result of Global Warming. I remember going to the scientific press conference and being amazed by two things. First, the simplicity and eloquence of the message and the vigour with which it was delivered. And secondly the total disregard of all climate science up till that time. Including, incidentally the role of the Sun, which have been the subject of a major meeting at the Royal Society just a few months earlier." I added it as a claim made in the docu, because it is an article about the docu...so generally..on wikipedia..it can be added. But it was deemed to be nonsense because other editors claimed no scientists dismiss the Suns role. Its simple: I'm not editing what scientists (based on fellow editors assumptions) think or don't think about the Sun. I'm basing my edits on the claims made on the programme. Simple! --Dean1970 15:14, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

New to wikipedia

Hi, you wrote that I had a change that had been reverted or removed on greenhouse gases. I'm not sure if this is the place to be talking about this but I don't see that it has and I would like to discuss this with whoever changed it. Thanks!--Nickstuckert 23:54, 3 June 2007 (UTC) Ok thanks! Nickstuckert 03:19, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Monckton's IPCC criticism

Why did you remove it from the IPCC[REDACTED] article?

3RR

Kim, You have reverted 4 times on the "Scientists..." page in the last 24 hours. Please keep a close eye on your reverts. I have not reported this, because I don't like to do that sort of thing. --Britcom 01:42, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually the correct number is 2 reverts - as one is a self-revert which cancels out another revert. --Kim D. Petersen 05:43, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

List of countries by carbon dioxide emissions

Ok, sorry. Felipe C.S 01:51, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Hi there

The acrimony seems to have died down at WP:V and people are now co-operating on a single compromise version that should be able to accommodate all views. Please feel free to edit this draft. here or add specific comments on how to improve it, either for clarity or including more of the relevant viewpoints. Tim Vickers 20:29, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

James Hoggan & Associates

Hi Kim, I don't appreciate your tone my friend. I was quickly looking for some refs I could add to the article because article was deleted before for a lack of them. I thought the publication was RS, it was about subject. So I included it. Nothing sinister. p.s. if smearing is your big concern, afford some of it to your pals. --Dean1970 13:36, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry Dean, i wasn't commenting on your editing - but merely on the source - and had to cram enough information into the edit comment - so that it wouldn't be necessary to go to Talk... WP:BLP makes it very important that you do not add references such as this - without sufficient reasons - and getting background information about Hoggan would not be such a case. The NP article is rather obvious as a smear piece - so bad that the NP had to post the retraction. A Google search for "James Hoggan" finds quite a few sources to pick from. --Kim D. Petersen 13:51, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

"probably a nice song"

C'mon insincerity doesn't suit you :) --BozMo talk 20:01, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I haven't listened... My Flash player can't play it. It probably is (or isn't). --Kim D. Petersen 20:12, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Kettle

Ha,ha,ha. You should study hard Misplaced Pages:Don't call the kettle black. Prester John 00:38, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

WP:V opinion request

Hi there, do you have an opinion on which of these formulations of a paragraph in this policy is preferable? Tim Vickers 16:19, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

question about whois

Hi Kim. I have a question that's unrelated to out discussion about the inclusion of demandebate.com at Steven Milloy. Since you seem to know a lot about domain name registration I thought I'd ask you. Here goes: According to whois.com, Milloy registered demanddebate.com in April 07, but the website has News entries dating back to Dec 06. I look at this and think: the earliest the site went "live" was in April, and these older news entries were added to make it look like the site has been around for longer. But I don't know much about this stuff--perhaps there's a better explanation. Also, demanddebate.com doesn't show up (yet) in Archive.org queries, leading me to believe the site is relatively new. I'm curious to hear your thoughts. (And I know this busines is 100% WP:OR and I have zero intention of including this in the article.I'm just curious).Yilloslime 06:52, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Editing War on Michal Mann page due to Mr Petersen discussionless reversions

Editing War on Michal Mann page due to Mr Petersen discussionless reversions

Mr Petersen, I have added a single word "controversial" about "hockey stick" graph on Michal Mann page. This word is fair and moderate given the fact this graph is negates the two most important climate changes in the past millenium (warm Middle Age and Little Ice Age), promoted to a so-called worldwide scientific consensus by Mann himself inspite his work was single and quite small compared to the huge task, after this said in the peer-reviewed literature to be just built from flawed methodology and doubtful choice of proxies and now rejected by IPCC itself which has restored some warm Middle Age and Little Ice Age in its officla graphs.

I have provided these factual arguments in the discussion page of the article on Mann.

Following Misplaced Pages rules, you should get into dialogue through the discussion page. You have not.

Mr Petersen, Iam shocked that you behave as if you were the owner of the page on Michael Mann, reverting with no argument nor any kind of legitimacy this single, moderate word I have added.

Therefore, I expect to declare an official editing war due to your behaviour. Xavier 11:15 14 July 2007 GMT

I'm going on vacation for a week. In the meantime - i suggest that you read up on your stuff. MWP and LIA in IPCC reports and Hockey stick controversy is a good start. Try reading the report by the National Research Council as well. Mann's work has been confirmed by every temperature reconstruction since it came out. So yes - there is controversy surrounding the hockey stick - but its not controversial. You seem to think that because you have written the last comment on a talk page, then there is consensus - that is not the case. --Kim D. Petersen 11:48, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

It would be rather nice if you'd read through the talk page as well - most of your argument is discussed there. --Kim D. Petersen 11:51, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Stop kidding. 1- You perfectly know I have read these articles : we had debatted in May on wether they are properly used in the article on Mann. 2- Hockey stick *is* controversial. It was controversial by itslef as soon as introduced in 1998, then in 2001 IPCC author Mann flawedly called it a consensus, in 2007 IPCC clearly states it as not a consensus, and now provides curves *with* warm Middle Age and Little Ice Age. The article on Mann as written now is deeply underinformative on the fact that the 1998 graph which is famous worldwide far outside the scientific world did negate (thorougly) Middle Age and (almost thoroughly) Little Ice Age, and was in the heart of the alarmists propaganda. The price to pay for those who have introduced such an absurd statement given the strong evidences reported by historians is to have it clearly written as a description of the work that has made them famous. You can claim their technology was at child time, or that science is made of a process of truth improvement, or whatever you like. You can claim they have good, safe results on other topics. I do not target them, but I want clearly written in[REDACTED] the part of the truth that is clearly known on what happend then, which has perturbated damageably the normal course of Humanity from flawed alarmism in IPCC. - xavdr 15 July 2007 00:09 -

The article on "hockey stick" controversy is usefull, but more usefull, essential for those who do not know yet, is a mention on some caracteristics of Mann graph inside the article on Mann himself. See discussion http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Michael_Mann_%28scientist%29 for what I am about to introduce in this article about this. - xavdr 15 July 2007 00:09 -

WP:BLP

Kim, please read WP:BLP again. It clearly states: "Material from self-published books, zines, websites, and blogs should never be used as a source about a living person, including as an external link, unless written or published by the subject of the article" No exceptions, please follow this rule. --Theblog 04:08, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Coal

Please help me out.
I can't find the text intended to support the coal reserves sentence in the article Energy_policy_of_the_United_States. Do you intend page two of Carbon Dioxide Capture and Storage in Underground Geologic Formations by Sally M. Benson to be relied upon? The closest I can find is this passing remark: "The United States has abundant supplies of inexpensive coal which could provide a secure supply of electricity for hundreds of years," which is vague, unsupported by any analysis or literature citations, and qualified to encompass electricity production only. -- Yellowdesk 05:59, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Verbatim from the second reference:

Coal reserves are beds of coal still in the ground waiting to be mined. The United States has the world's largest known coal reserves, about 267.6 billion short tons. This is enough coal to last approximately 236 years at today's level of use.

From "Coal – A Fossil Fuel". US Department of Energy. February 2007. Retrieved 2007-07-22. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

And to be more specific (but WP:OR in the article) the estimate from 1995 sets the total reserves at 496 billion short tons - the recoverable reserves at 274 billion short tons. Current (2005) coal production is 1,131.5 million short tons - which gives us 242 years (274000/1131.5). This assumes that recoverable reserves stay constant - rather than rise from technology making more of the total reserves available. All in all - even being conservative - i'd say we have >300 years. --Kim D. Petersen 10:45, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll look at them. -- Yellowdesk 20:37, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Criteria for Inclusion

I added a template to the talk page for the article Scientists Opposed to the Mainstream Scientific Assessment on Global Warming. At present, it is commented out. Since you seem to know what the exact requirements for inclusion are, would you be able to fill it out and uncomment it so the reference is there from now on? I really think it would help prevent the same questions from coming up again and again if we all knew what to look for. Thanks. ~ S0CO 20:06, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Global Warming Archive

Sorry, I was not trying to cause a problem with the Global warming archive. I just knew that it was well overdue. Thanks for going and archiving some of the old stuff. =) Ayudante 20:01, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Environmental Record Task Force

Hi Kim D. Petersen,
Thanks for your support in the climate change denial dispute. It occurs to me that you might be interested in this task force, if you're not already familiar with it. Please stop by and sign up!

You are being recruited by the Environmental Record Task Force, a collaborative project committed to accurately and consistently representing the environmental impact of policymakers, corporations, and institutions throughout the encyclopedia. Join us!

Cheers, Cyrusc 23:35, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

A thread for you to comment on

Can you take a look at this thread? Raul654 13:54, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm, i can't say that i disagree. CE seems mostly to be here to argue and troll. --Kim D. Petersen 14:29, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

1. consensus statement from national science academies of the G8 nations, plus Brazil, China and India
2. consensus statement from Committee on the Science of Climate Change of the National Research Council]
3. consensus statement from the American Meteorological Society (AMS)
4. declaration from the US Climate Change Science Program
5. consensus statement from the American Geophysical Union
6. examination of consensus position from the National Academies of Science
7. consensus statement from the Australian Academy of Sciences, Royal Flemish Academy of Belgium for Sciences and the Arts, Brazilian Academy of Sciences, Royal Society of Canada, Caribbean Academy of Sciences, Chinese Academy of Sciences, French Academy of Sciences, German Academy of Natural Scientists Leopoldina, Indian National Science Academy, Indonesian Academy of Sciences, Royal Irish Academy, Accademia Nazionale dei Lincei (Italy), Academy of Sciences Malaysia, Academy Council of the Royal Society of New Zealand, Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences, and Royal Society (UK).
8. A position paper of the Stratigraphy Commission of the Geological Society of London.
9. Position Statement on Global Climate Change adopted by the Geological Society of America
10. Australian Medical Association statement on climate change
11. American Chemical Society (unsigned) statement on Global Climate Change