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Archives

Archive 1

Photo of Arabs

The image File:Ara5.jpg contains a photo of Boutros Boutros Ghali, who is a Copt, not an Arab. Please correct this. Thanks! --Lanternix 19:22, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

First, User:Serenesoulnyc needs to be aware of 3RR and the policy on the use of different accounts and IP addresses. It's just too convenient that several new accounts and IPs suddenly appeared just to add the picture and make the same edits. Also, Copts are indeed likely not to consider themselves Arabs, so the insistence on including one even though there is no shortage of other images of prominent Arabs can be interpreted as an attempt merely to make a point. Regardless of the fact that Ghali may or may not consider himself Arab, he certainly does not not represent the Arabs to be included in a general article about them unless you can provide a source where he identifies himself in these terms (e.g. the way that Nasser certainly did). As someone else mentioned, there is a disclaimer about Egyptians in the article for this reason, so it's best to include images that would not generate disputes like these. Besides, the image is likely to be deleted anyway because it does not provide adequate information regarding the copyright status of each individual image. — Zerida 23:55, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Reorganize the article

The article needs to be overhauled by someone at least familiar with the topic. It contains much repeating information and even literally repeating text. The "Origin" section repeats itself a lot, part of the "Defining who is Arab" and most of "Mentions in history" sections are literally repeated in the "History" section, and information from "Origin" is repeated in "History". Also, the section topics are confusing, as origin and mentions in history are topics of history, and "Arab nationalism" reads like part of the "History" section.

I suggest that the "Origin" and "Mentions in history" be incorporated into "History". The text from "Origin" should be overhauled. "History" should be divided into subsections. And perhaps "Arab nationalism" should be incorporated as a subsection of "History". The information from "Defining who is Arab" should be summarized to minimize repetition. Unfortunately, this would result in an article of three sections, including a very long History section. But I think this is more logical than the current section division. -Pgan002 00:02, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Arab Jews

In response to the section below, if there were no Arab Jewish tribes, there are certainly Arab Jews. Despite the fact that many Jews in the Middle East left (or were encouraged to leave) during the 1950s and 60s to non-Arabic speaking countries, many still keep their identity as both Arabs and Jews. Continued pressure within the Jewish community to act more like the Eastern European-descendant Jews only means that it is all the more important to recognize Jewish people of Arab descent (and whose first language was often Arabic, then Hebrew) on this page. It would make sense to do so, however, with the caveat that some Arabic-speaking Jews identify both as Jews and as Arabs, while some do not--just as it's done for Christians from the Arab world on this page.

Not exactly. Jews from the Arab countries have never been Arabs - meaning "ethnic Arabs". They were Jews living in Arab countries. They spoke Arab as German Jews spoke German, but in fact they mostly spoke some Hebrew-Arab or Ladino or French - depending on the country. They do not consider themselves as Arabs. Benjil 19:21, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

90% of Arabs are not "ethnic" Arabs either, in the sense that they aren't actual descendants of the original South Arabian Arabs, but it's irrelevant. Jews who speak Arabic are Arabs in the linguistic sense, it's as simple as that. Maronites are Arabs too, whether they like it or not, and if they don't want it to be like that, they should start speaking Aramaic. Funkynusayri 20:37, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

No because the most important thing in being Arab is to identify yourself as such. Jews in Arab speaking countries never did and were not considered as Arabs by the Arabs. And Arab was not really the mother tongue of Jews in these countries, they had there own sub-languages like Yiddish for Ashkenazi Jews. Almost no Jews identify as Arabs. And anyway, almost no Jews in 2007 speak Arabic as a mother tongue. Benjil 21:49, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

There is no one definitive definition of "Arab". It is like the term "Hispanic", the definition is relative, and self-designation is largely irrelevant. Native Arabic speaker: Arab, just like any native speaker of English is an Anglophone. The argument of some Mid Eastern Jews using other languages than Arabic is irrelevant in relation to those Jews whose first language was Arabic, and those are the people we're talking about. You could of course argue that Arab Jews arent "ethnic" Arabs, but again, they're as "ethnically Arabic" as your average North African or Levantine Arab. As for Arab Jews not considering themselves as Arabs today, well, that's pretty obvious, but not historically. Here's a useful article. http://www.bintjbeil.com/articles/en/021016_arabjews.html Funkynusayri 21:57, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

So you are confusing Arab and Arab-speaker. We are speaking here about the Arab national identity. There are many definitions of the Arab identity. The one taking language as its main criteria also states the necessity of self-identification. Furthermore, Arab, most of the time, was not the first language of these Jews. In fact it was mostly a modern phenomenon - like the Arab identity itself. And the link you give is from a pro-Hezbollah site. Benjil 05:56, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

No one is confusing anything, and we're not talking specifically about the national identity. You yourself mentioned how they're not "ethnic" Arabs, and no one claimed they were. And again, neither would 90% of Arabs be, using that logic.

When it comes to "being an Arab", the criteria are so vague that in the most fundamental sense, anyone whose first language is Arabic is an Arab, so if you moved to Syria tomorrow and your future children learned Arabic as their first language, they would be Arabs. As you mentioned, the Arabic "national" identity, when it comes to Arabic speakers outside South Arabia, is an extremely recent phenomenon, which has its roots in the nationalist movements of the 19th century, with the Brits helping to create this "national identity" when they wanted the Arab speakers in the Middle East to rise up against the Ottomans. What was the common denominator for all these people? The Arabic language. That's what this "Arabic national identity" was built up on. Only then did the Arab speaking Jews have to choose the Jewish identity over the Arab one, as this was when the two became mutually exclusive, with parallel Arab and Jewish nationalist movements coming into existence.

Ok so we think here almost the same. Benjil 08:21, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Before that, "being an Arab" was solely linked to having Arabic as your first language, at least for the arabised Arabs (which is pretty much all Arabs), and if you're denying that any Mizrachi Jews had Arabic as their first language, I'd like you to provide a source that confirms it. There are countless sources that state otherwise.

Before that, "Being an Arab" was being a Bedouin. Very few defined themselves as Arabs before the 20th century but according to religion and tribe. And I never denied that any mizrahi Jew spoke Arabic as first language. Only said it was more common only in the modern times. Benjil 08:21, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

So language and identity is intertwined here, just like with the term "Hispanic". Are you denying that "Hispanic Jews" exist, Jews who live in Latin America and speak Spanish as their first langage?

Never heard of "Hispanic Jews". I know Argentinean Jews, Mexican Jews, etc... But if you want. I would call them South American Jews or Spanish speaking Jews. Benjil 08:21, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Also, why should they not be considered "Arab Jews", just because they do not live up to one of the many criteria for who is an Arab (the most recent and unstable criteria that is)?

For the exact reason that neither the Arabs and themselves do define them as such. You can talk of Moroccan Jews, Tunisian Jews, Iraqi Jews, Arab-speaking Jews. But they are not Arabs. Benjil

As for that "pro-Hizbollah site", its affiliation is irrelevant, as the article was only re-published on that website. And even if it wasn't, I don't see how it would discredit the article, as it is clear who is interviewing and who is being interviewed. Funkynusayri 08:37, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

So what ? Obviously these are people with an agenda. In Israel you have a few hard-left wing Sefaradim who speak like that - mostly from an anti-Zionist hardcore point of view. They represent nothing. You have also Abraham Serfaty, a Moroccan Jew who define himself as a Moroccan Arab and was 17 years in jail in Morocco. We are speaking here about a few individuals. Benjil 08:21, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

"So what"? We can agree that "Arab Jew" is mostly a defunct term when it refers to Mizrachi Jews with roots in Arab regions today, and most of them, if not all, don't use the Arabic language as their first language anymore. But historically (early 20th century and before) it's a completely different story (Bedouins were considered the "original" Arabs, but not the only Arabs, that's why you have the old term for arabised Arabs, which would include Jews, "Adnanites"), and that's what we're arguing about. But again, you denied that any Jews had ever used Arabic as their first language, a claim I'd like you to support.

Edit: Ah, I just realised you wrote between my lines. Ok, so you're mentioning how Jews of different nationalities aren't Arab Jews, that can be very true if they speak some sort of sub-group of Hebrew, but if it's Arabic, well, you know what I'm going to say.

As for the "before that" section, what wa the result of "arabisation"? It was that people started speaking Arabic. Take Lebanese Maronites for example, very few of them would consider themselves Arabs, but because their native language is Arabic, they're considered as such pretty much everywhere. In that case, their self-identification is irrelevant, but Jews whose native language is Arabic are somehow the exception. Odd, but that's a result of politics.

On "Hispanic Jews", I'd advise you to go erase this section of the Hispanic Misplaced Pages site if you disagree with it: "There are also Hispanic Jews, of which most are the descendants of Ashkenazi Jews who migrated from Europe (German Jews, Russian Jews, Polish Jews, etc.) to Latin America, particularly Argentina (Argentina is host to the largest Jewish population in the Western Hemisphere outside of the United States) in the 19th century and during and following World War II. Some Hispanic Jews may also originate from the small communities of reconverted descendants of anusim — those whose Spanish and Portuguese Sephardi Jewish ancestors long ago hid their Jewish ancestry and beliefs in fear of persecution by the Spanish Inquisition and Portuguese Inquisition in the Iberian peninsula and Latin America. There are also the now Catholic-professing descendants of marranos and the Hispano crypto-Jews believed to exist in the once Spanish-held Southwestern United States and scattered through Latin America. Additionally, there are Sephardic Jews who are descendants of those Jews who fled Spain to Turkey, Syria, and North Africa, some of who have now migrated to Latin America, holding on to some Spanish/Sephardic customs, such as the Ladino language. (See also History of the Jews in Latin America and List of Latin American Jews.)"

And just to make it clear again, I'm not referring to any Jew from an Arabic region, but the so called Musta'arabim, who are/were native Arab speakers. Funkynusayri 11:46, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Jewish Arab Tribes

If there were no Arab Jewish tribes, there are certainly Arab Jews. Despite the fact that many Jews in the Middle East left (or were encouraged to leave) during the 1950s and 60s to non-Arabic speaking countries, many still keep their identity as both Arabs and Jews. Continued pressure within the Jewish community to act more like the Eastern European-descendant Jews only means that it is all the more important to recognize Jewish people of Arab descent (and whose first language was often Arabic, then Hebrew) on this page. It would make sense to do so, however, with the caveat that some Arabic-speaking Jews identify both as Jews and as Arabs, while some do not--just as it's done for Christians from the Arab world on this page.

Not exactly. Jews from the Arab countries have never been Arabs - meaning "ethnic Arabs". They were Jews living in Arab countries. They spoke Arab as German Jews spoke German, but in fact they mostly spoke some Hebrew-Arab or Ladino or French - depending on the country. They do not consider themselves as Arabs. Benjil 19:21, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

90% of Arabs are not "ethnic" Arabs either, in the sense that they aren't actual descendants of the original South Arabian Arabs, but it's irrelevant. Jews who speak Arabic are Arabs in the linguistic sense, it's as simple as that. Maronites are Arabs too, whether they like it or not, and if they don't want it to be like that, they should start speaking Aramaic. Funkynusayri 20:37, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Funky so the Arab Jews are not Arabs then? because they dont Speak Arabic anymore.--Jolytimes 23:06, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Error in including Israel in List

Regarding the population of Arabs "Outside Arabic-speaking regions" : The State of Israel cannot be listed here since Arabic is one of the OFFICIAL languages of the State of Israel. This means that in the Knesset one can officially (and legally) speak in Hebrew or Arabic. For further details see: http://en.wikipedia.org/Languages_of_Israel#Arabic. Thank you. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.167.82.111 (talk • contribs).

Israel is not an Arab country. It is a self-defined Jewish state. While Arabic is nominally an official language, you cannot get government services or forms in Arabic in most areas. I am strongly against removing Israel from the list. It has over 1.2 million Arabs living there and they are worthy of inclusion in this template. Tiamut 12:24, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I've just added a note for clarification. -- FayssalF - 12:36, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Arab - not Arab? edit warring

This point is bothering and the article is unstable because of it. Could you please discuss that point here? -- FayssalF - 12:41, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

A guy called Lanternix keeps removing "Maronite" from Arab religions, though some Maronites do consider themselves Arabs. Furthermore, Maronites are linguistically Arabs without exception, so if Lanternix doesn't come up with a good counterargument, it stays. Funkynusayri 21:21, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

• • A guy called funky something has not read the following (from Misplaced Pages by the way):

"Some people asked for my references, most Maronites do not identify as Arabs:

• http://en.wikipedia.org/Phoenicia#Origins
• http://amalid.com/prominent_lebs/Gubran_Khalil_Gubran/AMU_to_Powell.htm
• http://www.aina.org/guesteds/20060210113623.htm
• http://lebanesewbass.blogspot.com
• http://www.petitiononline.com/NotArab/petition.html

I'll stop here, short of many other references. Enjoy the reading." I'll be glad to discuss the issue here, and if you can't come up with a good enough argument why Maronite should be kept as a religion of the Arabs, I'll remove it again. And just a comment about your last note: not everyone who speaks Arabic is an Arab. Copts, Kurds, Amazighs and many others clearly are NOT Arabs. And also note that I only object to including Maronites because I know most of them would rather be considered French than Arab. Yet, I do not object to having Greek Orthodoxy or Greek Catholicism, since the overwhelming majority of both groups does self-identify as Arab. --Lanternix 00:58, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

• • Again, what most Maronites think is irrelevant, that some Maronites define themselves as Arabs means that some Maronites are Arabs. What does that mean? That some Arabs are Maronites. It's as simple as that.

As for Kurds and Berbers, they're in a completely different league than Maronites, as they have their own languages, whereas Maronites use Arabic as their mother tongue. Therefore they are linguistically Arabs, whereas Berbers and Kurds are not. Anyway, Maronism is a form of Eastern Catholicism, so it would maybe be redundant to keep their name in the infobox. That's the only valid reason I could see to remove it. Everything else is just politics and POV. Funkynusayri 01:34, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

• • Again, what matters is what MOST of them believe in. If one Muslim living in Algeria believes he is French, does this mean that all Algerian Muslims are French? Where would you draw the line then? I've given you ample references of Maronites and Assyrians denying the fact that they are Arabs. As for Amazighs (No longer Berbers) and Kurds, they speak Arabic as well as any native Arabic speaker. Yet, they are NOT Arabs because MOST of them do not believe they are (and because ethnically and historically they aren't). Same applies to Copts and many other ME minorities. Again, I will remove the Maronite bit from the infobox if I don't see any better argument than this to the different references I posted. Thanks. --Lanternix 02:31, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Who said all Maronites were Arabs? Where are you getting this stuff? If you look you'll see that Judaism is included in the infobox as well. Does that mean all Jews are Arabs? I guess not.

Why are you comparing Maronites, a religious group, with actual ethnic groups with distinct non-Arabic languages, such as Assyrians (Aramaic) and Kurds (Kurdish)? Arabic is not their first language. But the first language of Maronites is Arabic. What is the problem? Your arguments are vague, especially since some Maronites consider themselves as Arabs. This is pretty much the same argument I had with Benji. Anyway, I'll let your revert be, for the reason I mentioned before (Maronites are already Eastern Catholics, so they don't need to be listed).Funkynusayri 02:38, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

• You're not getting my point. I never said that all Maronites are Arabs, or claimed that you say so. But Maronites are clearly not Arabs, both ethnically and linguistically (most are bilingual with French, and since half of the Maronites live in the diaspora, the new generations do NOT speak Arabic). Maronites are a distinct ethnic group from Arabs, since you seem to object to my comparing of Maronites to other ethnic groups in the ME. Assyrians do NOT speak Aramaic as first language and most Kurds are bilingual with Kurdish and Arabic. So you can't just take a handful of Maronites saying they are Arabs and deny the fact that 1. they are not ethnically, and 2. do not self-identify as Arabs for the most part. On the other hand for instance, Greek Orthodox and Greek Catholics, although ethnically non-Arab, do self-identify as Arabs, this is why it's appropriate to include them in the infobox. Got my point now? --Lanternix 02:46, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
• As I said to Benji, by that logic 90% of Arabs aren't Arabs. I'm not talking about just being able to speak Arabic, but speaking it as your main/first/native language, so stating that many Maronites are bilingual is irrelevant. Arabic is still their first language, which they use when they speak with each other.

Diaspora Maronites who don't speak Arabic aren't Arabs, but how is this relevant? No one other than you brought them up.

As for Assyrians, their main language is Syriac, and yes, that's a form of Aramaic. With Kurds it's Kurdish, Berbers have Berber, and so on. That they are able to speak Arabic too is irrelevant, as it isn't their first language.

Again, Maronites in the infobox would refer to the ones who do consider themselves as Arabs, which is also cleared out in the article itself. But no worries, I already explained why I won't re-add it. But I get your point, and it's a point only made by nationalistic Copts and Maronites. But the only way they can change the fact that they are considered as Arabs by others is if they start speaking Coptic and Aramaic at home, which I doubt they'll do. Funkynusayri 03:01, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

• Well, I do know of Maronites speaking Syriac and Copts speaking Coptic at home. To suggest that people change their self-identification based on where they live is too naive. For instance, this would suggest that an Arab family that immigrates to the US would have kids that are American are no longer Arabs! This makes no sense. And people are not categorized linguistically, because then we would start calling the Senegalese French, the Austrians German, and the Colombians Spanish! In any case, I'll go ahead and remove Maronites from the infobox. --Lanternix 03:21, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
• Your analogies are bad, no one said this is about where someone lives, but it is about what language they speak as their native tongue. An Arab person can be linguistically defined, read this very Misplaced Pages article where it is clearly stated, Senegalese aren't French because that is not how "French" is defined. Therefore you can't compare.

From the article: "Linguistic: someone whose first language is Arabic, including any of its varieties. This definition covers more than 250 million people. Arabic belongs to the Semitic family of languages." This means that most Lebanese Maronites, by far, are Arabs. And you should know very well that close to no Maronites speak Syriac as their first language (the ones who do aren't Arabs, but we're not talking about those). Anyway, I already said you could go ahead and remove Maronite for another reason, so I don't see why we're still arguing.Funkynusayri 16:36, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Photo at top right

Someone changed the 1910 photo to a tiny montage of four images with no caption. I have rolled it back, could we discuss this first? Joie de Vivre 15:34, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

WE ARE ARABS

hey all those are jwesh tribes from Yemen, and i'm a Christian Arab that i come back from Yemen too, who told you that we don't consider ourself arabs??? we are proud to be an arab. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Alkendy (talk • contribs).

Pre-Islamic Himyarite south & Nabatean north Arabic

The "Pre-Islamic Himyarite south & Nabatean north Arabic" sub-section talks about Semites in general which is contradictory to the the title of the sub-section itself. I believe the whole section should be rewritten. -- FayssalF - 12:10, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Who is an Arab?

Arab is a race, although for some very strange reason it has become a "language" which is absurd, and which is what has led to the muddle and murky use of definition such as ethnic Arab etc. This new "idea" was probably conceived by non-arabs and anti-Arabs. The fact is, in much of the "Arab world" excluding "Linguistically Arab countries such as Sudan, who are not Arab racially", there is a very clear majority of Arabs dispersed among a minority of non-Arabs. In most cases, they consider themselves Arab. In Lebanon, "phoenician" has only recently become a serious consideration, mostly by Arabs with an inferiority complex, who do not wish to be identified as Arabs. In the past, it was dismissed even by many who today claim to be phoenician. Nonetheless, most Lebanese people known themselves to be Arab and dismiss any talk of phoenician origins, as it is a well known fact that Phoenicians are extinct. The idea that just about anyone who adopts the Arab language is an Arab is nonsensicial. Would it make an Arab-speaking German an Arab? LOL ah, the stupidity of the masses. And does this make me, French, British, Swedish and Arab? I speak all four language. Irrer 22:40, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Arab is not a race as their is no such things as "races". And the idea of Arab language to define arabity comes from Arab intellectuals who borrowed the idea from Eastern Europe - where language has been used to define new nationalities. Arabs are an old people but it had no modern definition fitting to the modern world. In fact, there was no national Arab identity at all, as the concept itself is European. Christians Arab-speakers saw in the National idea a way to stop being second zone citizens - when religion was the main criteria, there were just a minority inside the Muslim world, but if the identity shifted to nationhood, there were to become Arabs equals among other Arabs. Benjil 23:09, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

We need a clearcut definition of who is an Arab. Is it enough to be an "Arabic-speaker" to be called an Arab? Is it an ethno-racial/cultural term? Please let's discuss this here. --Lanternix 16:05, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

• Again, when your first/native/mother language is Arabic, you're an Arab, not if you just speak Arabic as a second language. "Arab" doesn't have one single definition though, so there's no reason to have a "clearcut" definition, as there isn't any. In that regard, it's similar to the term "Hispanic". Hispanic can mean someone from Iberia (ethnic, geographic, cultural, not linguistic, as it also refers to non-Spanish speaking Iberians), someone who speaks Spanish (linguistic), and someone from Latin America who speaks Spanish (ethnic, geographic, cultural, linguistic), and any combination of the above. Funkynusayri 16:26, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Ok but what do you do about the millions of Europeans youth of Arab origins who were born in Europe and whose first language is not Arab (usually French or Spanish etc...) ? They see themselves as Arabs, have family in Arab countries, and are identified as Arabs by other people. Benjil 16:32, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

They're "ethnic" Arabs, as they can trace their ancestry back to "Arabia", or "Arab people", and view themselves as such. They've most likely grown up while being exposed to Arabic culture at home too.

In that sense it is similar to the "Iberian" definition of "Hispanic". None of the definitions are mutually exclusive. Most European Arabs, by far, speak Arabic as their first language though.Funkynusayri 16:35, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

"Most European Arabs" - I am far from sure, in particular for the young ones. I know very well the situation in France and most of the ones who were born in France almost do not speak Arabic at all. Benjil 16:59, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

• Ok, but who came up with these definitions? This linguistic definition only applies to Arabs in this case (for instance Austrians are not Germans and Colombians are not Spanish). So who came up with the idea that anyone who speaks Arabic as a native tongue is automatically considered an Arab? And how about all these ethnic and religious minorities in the ME who speak Arabic as first language but reject the label "Arab"? Do we still call them Arabs because they conform to that definition? --Lanternix 16:41, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
• That your language defines who you are isn't a universal fact, it is specifically linked to some languages, such as Arabic, due to the somewhat recent mass-arabisation of pretty much everyone outside South Arabia who is an Arab today. Who came up with the idea? Who knows? But that's what is generally accepted, why else do you think the CIA says Lebanon is 90% Arab, with Armenian and Kurdish minorities? Simply because they define an Arab as someone who speaks Arabic as their first language (in that case, someone who has been arabised).

Religious minorities that use Arabic as their first language are Arabs whether they like i or not, that's the consenus pretty much everywhere outside Misplaced Pages and Maronite/Copt/Jewish, so on, nationalist web-sites. Read any Western encyclopaedia in book form.

Do I prefer that? No, I identify more with the pre-Arabic populations of Lebanon than with the South Arabian invaders, but does that change the fact that pretty much all Lebanese speak Arabic as their first language? And that everyone in the world, apart from a few Lebanese, thus consider them as being Arabs? No, and that's why this article has to reflect that, although with an explanation. Otherwise it's POV. Just take a look at "Hispanic". There's an entire movement of Mestizos who reject the term, but they're still considered "Hispanics". As for the Arab European youth, I already edxplained why they're Arabs even though they might not speak Arabic. Funkynusayri 17:07, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Well I believe that the self-identification is also a main criteria. If you don't identify as an Arab you certainly are not Arab. You need to remember that the definition of who is an Arab comes from the Eastern European debate over "Nationality" during the 19th century, and has been imported to the Middle-East mostly by Christian Arabs who got a European education. They invented the modern Arab identity as a national one by using the same criterias used in Europe - language and territory (and mostly language in Eastern Europe). But the reality is far more complex than these intellectual constructions. So the definition of who is an Arab is complex, changing, as is the Arab world itself. Benjil 16:59, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, of course it is complex, and in my opinion, the linguistic definition of an Arab is wrong, but that's the worldwide official consensus. And yet again, so is the term "Hispanic". If a South American Indian who speaks Spanish as his first language travels to the US, he's considered a Hispanc person, though he has no ties to Hispania other than his language.

It's wrong, but that's how it is. Change that before you claim that for example Maronites and Jews can't be Arabs, as a fact.

Take a look at this: "Arab 95%, Armenian 4%, other 1% note: many Christian Lebanese do not identify themselves as Arab but rather as descendents of the ancient Canaanites and prefer to be called Phoenicians." https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/le.html

They explain that some Christians prefer not to be called Arabs, yet they claim 95% of Lebanese are Arabs.Funkynusayri 17:07, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

There is no "worldwide consensus" on these issues. In fact you have two possibilities: or the identity is defined by Law (citizenship, religion) or it is not, and here the consensus, at least in the western world, is that people define themselves as they want. And that's it. I don't know about Maronites, although I knew one who really did not see himself as an Arab, but Jews from Arab countries do definitely not define themselves as Arabs (but a very tiny minority) so they are not. That's the only valid criteria. Anyway, if you want to see them as Arabs, that's mostly your problem, not theirs. And you will see that nobody counts the Sefaradi and Oriental Jews among the Arabs in Israel. Benjil 17:15, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

• And I repeat, I do not approve of that particular definition of Arab, this is not about whether we like the definition or not, but how it is defined.

There are two things we can't just ignore in this article: An Arab can be linguistically (among other ways) defined, therefore everyone who speaks Arabic as their first language can be defined as Arabs. This is not my definition, that's the "traditional" definition, the definition used by for example the CIA in the case of for example Maronites, and the definition used by Arab countries. That's not my fault, so don't blame me for defending it as a view. It's the closest we can get to a "legal" definition.

The other thing is, some Maronites and Jews do identify as Arabs, therefore some Arabs are Maronites and Jews. And that's what you, Benji, claimed was what you believe is the main criteria. Funkynusayri 17:26, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

• The idea that anyone who speaks Arabic is an Arab is a post modernist definition implemented initially by levantine intellectuals to fight the increasing Ottoman influence in the Levant. They invented a whole new sphere called "the Arab World" based on language to assert their non-Ottoman heritage (and not necessarily their Arab one). No one paid much attention to the idea until Nasser came to power in Egypt and started the whole pan-Arabist movement. The idea is now rejected by ME minorities. The fact that the West has been traditionally ignorant to these facts does not mean that a CIA definition of who an Arab is is a valid definition. Furthermore, the same CIA website gives the following breakdown of Egyptians: Egyptian 98%, Berber, Nubian, Bedouin, and Beja 1%, Greek, Armenian, other European (primarily Italian and French) 1% (https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/eg.html) with no mention whatsoever of Arabs. Now, since the overwhelming majority of Egyptians are native Arabic-speakers, how can we make the claim now that native Arabic speakers are Arabs? This why self-identification and historical ethno-social facts must be used to replace inaccurate definitions (hence the links I posted about Maronites and Assyrians rejecting the label Arab). In addition, a global concensus of how to identify a certain group of people must be implemented. We can't define an Arab based on language or ethnicity or culture, while we only define an Austrian based on citizenship for instance. --Lanternix 19:07, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Heh, it isn't our job here to come up with a new global definition of Arab, all we can do is reflect the different definitions that are in use. Otherwise it's "POV". Funkynusayri 19:21, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

• • This is not a good enough answer for my objections. You used a CIA link to support your claim, and I showed you, using the same website, that this linguistic defintion does not hold. So this simply refutes this kind of definition, and now a more accurate definition must be found. The POV is not what we're trying to resolve, the POV is to claim that any Arabic speaker is an Arab without showing enough references to support this claim, as is the case in the article. --Lanternix 19:25, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

• It's not my claim, and that the CIA is inconsistent isn't my problem. And I repeat, there is no one accurate definition of Arab, just as there isn't one accurate definition of Hispanic, and the current Misplaced Pages article makes that pretty clear. I'm not sure why that should be so hard to swallow, unless you're a Coptic nationalist who want to dissociate yourself from Arabs by any means. Funkynusayri 19:55, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

• • Classic Ad Hominem argument. Looks like Mr Funky got no valid replies anymore. I guess I'll have to revise the article myself to rid it of fallacies then. --Lanternix 20:13, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I have no "valid replies" because there's nothing to defend. If you want a clearcut definition of "Arab", I'm afraid you'll have to make one up yourself, as such doesn't exist. Good luck with that. Either we present all definitions used today, or we limit them to the definitions that serve our interests. That would be POV. Funkynusayri 20:18, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Nusayri Actually Most Egyptians are of African origin, and dont relate to the Arabs culturally or ethnically! Only the Arab nobles and Egyptian elites are Arabs. The Majority of the EGyptians you dont see or hear from are the mixed population descended from the mixing of the Native Egyptians and the various invaders of Egypt. The majority of the Egyptians lack the main Arab traits (Generosity and Bravery), so I really prefer that the Ashraaf and the elite self identified Arab should only be listed as Arabs. And the Egyptian subjects should not be included as Arabs because they are not! Egypt will always have Great Arab leaders like Gamal Abdul Nasser and few genuine Arabs were the nobility fo Egypt for 1400years, Its the Arab Republic of Egypt because its owned by the Arabs. Just like in the UAE where the Arabs are a minority but they own the nation, we are not going to count the Hindus as Arabs are we?!--Skatewalk 19:39, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

• But do they not view themselves as Arabs regardless of actual ancestry? After all, they are arabised. Funkynusayri 19:43, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes nusayri they used to view themselves as Arabs back in the 1960s. You have to understand Egyptians are Not Syrians. Syria has a proud Semitic as far as Arab history goes. Syria was settled by Semites as early as the Amorites times 4500years ago. They shared similar culture to teh South Arabians (although evolved with non Semitic influence in the coasts), but in inner Aram (Syria) it was a continuation of the Semitic culture A desert region that extended from emen to Syria. A common origin and culture so its easy for a Syrian to be an Arab no matter what ethnic background he has. Egypt in the other hand is a mixed nation that never was independent. The Egyptian commons evolved to become submissive through history of diffrent invaders imposing themselves upon them. The 1960s was the highrise of PanArabism so the Egyptians saw it benefitial for them to be Arabs. Now that the West is attacking the Arabs they prefer to side with stronger side and many common Egyptians will express their ill feelings towards the Ethnic Arab nobility in Egypt including Gamal Abdul Nasser. The majority of the Egyptians are not Arabs by their choice. However, it is still an Arab territory and the Arabs elites in Egypt control everything that matters in Egypt thats why its the Arab Republic of Egypt.I didn't change teh population number anymore--Skatewalk 23:46, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Correction

"عرب" is not the singular form, it does not mean "an Arab" as the article implies, but "Arabs." The correct form is, I believe, "عربي"

Arab PEOPLE

I think the name of this article should be changed to Arab people, just like most of the other ethnic group articles

Egyptians are very well known that they are Mediterraneans, not Arabs. Just because they speak Egyptian-Arabic that is a little bit close to these Khaliji Arabic doesn't make them Arabs. (Example: Brazilians speak Portuguese but they're nothing close to being Portuguese)

Please read the edits

Rather than just reverting them because you think information deleted based on the edit summary number. I simplified the text but deleted no sourced information. The edits resolved many contradictions inherent to the text as it was, having been edited by multiple editors with multiple POVs and sources. Please take it point by point instead of mass reverting. Tiamat 01:31, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Please, see my edit summary to you. You appear to lack some understanding with regard to Egypt, as some of your edits introduced further contradictions. — Zerida 01:34, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I read your edit summary. You accused me of writing that Copts represent 60-80% of the Egyptian population. I did not. That info was there. The correction of 10-20% was made by Egegy and I just redid it when I reverted his deletion of my edits. As for the rest of your objections ... would you care to be more specific. Finally, I know a lot about Egypt. Do you? Tiamat 01:41, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Ok, now I see that the erroneous percentage was not re-introduced, sorry. The last question sounds a bit sarcastic and is not necessary. Could you explain the specific objections with regard to this part of the article? I was asking about the Arab-Net link and quote that Egyegy restored after you deleted it. — Zerida 01:47, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi Zerida. I see now that I accidently deleted the quote from Arab.net. (I overwrote it. Sorry about that. It's now been restored). I'm not sure what part of the article you would like me to explain other than that, since the majority of my edits were made for flow or logical consistency in line with the sources provided. Is there something in particular that disturbs you? Tiamat 01:56, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Not for my part, Tiamat, but I think it makes sense to keep the info about Copts and Maronites under Identity rather than in the lead, since it is addressing that question. Also, the statement "North Africans who still use the Berber language identify only as Berber, and many Egyptians, whether Muslim or Coptic, identify only as Egyptians" should be left intact, because as you may know it's a topic that gets debated in Egypt across the board. Thanks. — Zerida 02:07, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I have no objections to those two suggestions. Unfortunately, Egegy has wholesale reverted all of my additions (for the third time), so that I cannot restore any of them now and incorporate your suggestions since I will technically be in violation of 3RR. I will come back later though, to readd my edits while keeping the sections you mentioned intact. Unless you would like to make those changes. Otherwise, I feel the bulk of the edits I made improved the flow and clarity and deleted needless repetitions ( of which there are more that could use paring down as well). Thanks for engaging in discussion. Tiamat 02:13, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

PS. I would further point out that while Egegy is accusing me of deleting info, he has deleted this sentence and footnote (not added by me) in his latest edit:

Multiple definitions of who is an Arab have been offered. Islamized, but non-Arabized peoples form part of the Muslim World, and not the traditionally secular Arab World.Tiamat 02:17, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for making those changes Zerida. I would just point out that the sentence "Groups using a non-Arabic liturgical language are especially likely to consider themselves non-Arab." is repeated twice in the version you created and some info on Maronites there seems to be twice repeated as well. That is part of what I was trying to avoid by my cleanup and what I guess Egygey interpreted as deletion, but that can be fine-tuned later on. Overall, a very considerate compromise I think. Tiamat 02:40, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

No problem. I deleted the duplicated sentence at least, until you feel like making general edits again. — Zerida 03:14, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Tiamat 14:35, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Merged sections, deleted repetitions of identical material

I have reorganized the article sections per the tags placed there, merging history and mentions in history into one section and incorporating material from parallel pre-islamic history into that new section History and Origins as well. Please re-add any material I may have mistakenly deleted, or any tags I removed that you feel still apply. Of course, the merge was not seamless and could use some work for flow and as always, references. Tiamat 14:35, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Definition again

The latest change I made to article's opening sentence:

"An Arab (Template:Lang-ar) is someone who identifies as Arab on geneaological, political, and/or linguistic grounds (i.e. those who trace their ancestral origins back to the Semitic tribes of the Arabian Peninsula)."

was reverted by User:FayssalF to:

"An Arab (Template:Lang-ar) is someone who identifies as Arab on political, linguistic and/or geneaological grounds (i.e. those who trace their ancestral origins back to the Semitic tribes of the Arabian Peninsula)."

The reason given by him was:

"as per source though it is very weird using "economicexpert.com" as a ref (eco expert) - we'll get back to this later!"

I object to including 2 disouted definitions of the term Arab (political, linguistic) within the opening sentence before the widely approved and uncontested definition (geneaological). I think there should be a better argument than the source from Economic Expert. Thanks. --Lanternix 16:07, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

The only thing i know here is that playing w/ words is not cool. If there is a reference than we can rely on it. If not then we can use our common sense. I don't give a damn importance to which word would be first if the whole sentence would mean the same thing. Change it back if you want.

Now, who added that economicexpert.com ref. That is nonsense. Are people here keen to work hard or just come here w/ anything (not accusing anyone because i don't know who added it) w/o paying attention to what they are doing. So someone could read the source but forgot to read the important, the disclaimer. Xexpert.com are most of the time not fit for wikipedia. They are mainly a mirror of it. That what i call attention to details which most people here ignore or at least avoid it whether intentionally or not. -- FayssalF - 16:28, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Hadith

According to Sunan al-Tirmidhi in Hadith

Prophet Muhammad said, "Shem father of Arabs,Ham father of habsh(People of Ethiopia), Japheth father of Roman"

the Hadith in arabic ومن ناحية الأنساب وإستنادا إلى الترمذي فإنه روى الإمام أحمد عن سمُرة أن النبي قال: "سام أبو العرب، وحام أبو الحبش، ويافث أبو الروم". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.250.11.191 (talk • contribs)

You are correct but Hadith is considered as a primary source. Misplaced Pages articles should rely on reliable, published secondary sources as per this part of the policy. -- FayssalF - 11:04, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

who is arab today

most Semitic people today are arabs...... arabian tribes before islam and before Ibrahim was have Different languages like Sabaean Minaean Qatabanian Hadhramautic every language Different from another but they Consider Themselves arabs , today most the arabs are Qahtani Arab and Arabized: Which most of them are Semitic and others Ancient Egyptian Berber jews.. who Consider Themselves arabs today , For example Ibrahim was from iraq who Speaks Syriac language and..Ishmael son of Ibrahim father of Arabized He was Speaks arabic language Which are use today Between Arabs and from him lineage to many arab tribes like Banu Tamim and Taghlib and Quraysh and Banu Hanifa and prophet Muhammad who Consider Themselves arab...

• Hello, please sign your post. And please don't delete other people's entries to the talk page, Lanternix, that is extremely rude, whether it is gibberish or not is irrelevant. I believe he is referring to ancient populations who have been arabised, not present ones, if so, he is correct, not entirely, as not all members of these groups were arabised of course. Funkynusayri 02:53, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

• Reply to the Ibrahim (Abraham). Where did the Mesopotomian Akkadians came from? Where did the Chaldes of Ur (Abraham ppl) come from? They are Ancient Arabs (to the Europeans Semites). They were absorbed into the Arab tribes that settled the region, because they were the same people!

• However Egypt is a different case, The Arabs dont have anything to do with the Majority of the Modern Egyptians (culturally) they are Africans who were Subdued by the elite Arabs, The Arabs in Egypt today are less than 30% The Arab Nobility of Egypt, They still have their tribal last names and Arab manners (Gamal Abdul Nasser from Banu Judham, Hasan AlBana from Himyar). The Majority of Egyptians are mixed, only few of those mixed Egyptians will show any traits of the Noble Arabs. (The two main Arab cultural traits: Bravery & Generosity ) --Skatewalk 19:08, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

What is this nonsense ? Abraham and the Mesopotamians were not Arabs. These are different people. And please this is a serious encyclopedia, so refrain from writing such stupidities like "The two main Arab cultural traits: Bravery & Generosity. Benjil 19:12, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

If the Arab traits don't go well with you. Read history books and Bedouin culture. Bravery and Generosity are the main Arab traits thats why they refer to it as Arab Generosity As for the AKkadians, They are Ancient Arabs (not Qahtani but Ancient). Type Akkadians in GOOGLE and read the first result. They are the fathers of all The Mesopotamian Semites. (Are you aware of that? how do you think the Semitic culutre replaced the Sumerian!) The Akkadians came from the Arabian Peninsula
the Akkadians among the ancient Arabs--Skatewalk 23:32, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

The idea of "Arab traits" is in itself racist. The Akkadians were not Arabs, just read the article Akkad, the fact that they *may* have lived (not even a fact) in the North of what is *today* called the Arabian Peninsula over 4500 years ago does not make them Arabs. And you obviously make a common confusion between the modern meaning of "Semite" - which refers to a group of languages and *not* to people - and the biblical one (and they do not overlap). Benjil 07:24, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

• Arab is not a race/racist. Any person can adopt Arab culture and live as a proud Arab. The main Arab traits Bravery and Generosity are part of my Arab culture. Its your personal problem if you can't respect the Arab culture. If you choose not to be an Arab thats fine, but dont call it racism! The Arabs absorbed and will absorb any group no matter what race they are, as you know among the Arabs every DNA type you can list.

• Racism is Zionist or Nazi German discirmination by bloodlines where the oppressed subject has to be eliminated and can not be absorbed, and if you were the victim yu didnt have any choice! Racism are the groups that decide to live in small racist enclaves eventually bringging havoc upon their heads by singling themselves out!

• Arabs relate to their Semitic past. Akkadians lived in the Arabian peninsuala, Spoke Semitic, lived a Nomadic life (guess what that makes them) Yes you guessed it right. they are Arabs. The Arabs resemble the Akkadians in every way. At that time there was no (Arab) term. So simply they are part of the ancient Arabs.

All the Semites came from Arabia. The only Smeites we dont consider Arabs are those who chose not to identify as Arabs. (the Hebrews & Self identified Arameans/Assyrians)

• Arabs Christian or Muslim consider all the Semites Arab, the prophet of the Muslims said (SAM Shem abu Al-Arab)--Skatewalk 07:52, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

This is complete nonsense from the beginning to the end. Bravery and Generosity are part of most if all cultures, and the Arabs are not different from any other people. I respect the great arab culture as any other great culture in the world. I won't comment on your stupid political declarations about Zionism and comparing it to Nazism, but this in itself makes you unfit to any serious discussion. And for the Akkadians - no they were not Arabs, they did not speak Arabic, and did not identify as Arabs. Arabs are the people who speak Arabic. You have *no* right to annex to yourself all the other people of the region because they spoke a Semitic language. You are obviously some Arab nationalist bigot who prefers to live in its own fantasies, that's your problem. But Misplaced Pages is a serious scientific site, please refrain from posting nonsense. Benjil 10:05, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

• Excuse me Benjil me and you know that the Arab and Modern israeli (not ARab anymore) are diffirent culturally. The Arab is brave, generous. The Israeli is wiser, cunning and smarter about spending their money. (Are you going to deny these differences?!) These are traits passed down history through thousands of years. Bravery and Generosity are related to the Arab culture and people with similar lifestyles or close cultural ties with the Arabs (The Pashtuns, The Turks, The West Sicilians, The Southern Spaniards). Modern Israelis are similar culturally to the West Europeans as odd as it is but culturally they are similar to them (after all they lived the last 2000years in Europe, spoke a European language, and those European Jews are the ones who created Israel) thats the main reason we are having a conflict in the Mideast. If the Arabs adopted European manners they will will not look at Israel the way they do now. And if the Israelis adopt the Arab culture then they will be no reason to have a war! Dont deny the turth except the cultural shism between us.

"The Arab is brave and generous and the Israeli is wiser, cunning and smarter about spending their money". Is this a joke ? Will you stop trolling with that, I mean - really ? This really sounds like a racist anthem. For the rest, yes Arabs and Israelis have cultural differences, obviously Israel is a modern occidentalized State while the Arabs countries still belong to the underdeveloped world, and it is part of the reasons of the conflict, if not the only nor the main. Benjil 21:24, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

• Ofcourse you will deny the Akkadians are Arabs! Did I call uou an AntiArab zionist? Although what you are doing now is being An AntiArab jew (maybe you didnt notice?). Do you see me going to Jewish articles denying the Jews from the cultural past>>>crossing to Egypt leaving it in miracles. It sounds to me like an LSD dream, but I still respect their culture. Akkadians are Arabs read History books. (no not the Israeli books). We speak the Semitic language we know Akkadian is an archaic language similar to the Eastern South Semitic languages still spoken in Mehra. I am actually ahead of a project to that region and Akkad is Arab. Look at yourself and your people before you claim the Arabs are (bigots) and annexing history. Do you see me editing articles on who are the true Hebrews? and where the Ashkenazis really came from? Be a good boy respect other ppl and you will get respected--Skatewalk 19:26, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

So, yes you are a troll. The Akkadians are not Arabs according to anybody but you. If you have no scientific source about this fact, and you won't have, obviously, it can't be in wikipedia. All the rest of your rant just shows your true colors. By the way, two things: the article about "Arabs" is not for Arabs only as the articles about the Jews or any other people are not for Jews only or each people only ; and I never said the Arabs were bigots, I said *you* were. Thanks to God, you do not represent all the Arabs. With this, I will stop discussing with an ignorant racist like you. Benjil 21:24, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Again show me a place were I was racist. or a place I even insulted you? Yet you find it your duty to insult me. I dont have a problem with the Israelis aslong as they assimilate to the Arabs. The Arab culture of the Mideast is natural to the Mideast. Just like Ibn Khaldun said, you can't change the deserts because they are who make the Arabs. Arabs are not racist you are always welcome to become an Arab once you learn to respect our culture, speak our language and love our desert. --Skatewalk 23:33, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Arabic culture

Would somebody look at Arabic culture and provide some sources and references? It's been tagged for over a year, and it really degrades the quality of the article to have that ugly (but necessary) box at the top. 24.4.253.249 01:33, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Image in ethnic group infobox

I checked the source of the image, and guess what: "Tourists dressed up in traditional clothing. Palestine/Jerusalem, 1910." http://fai.cyberia.net.lb/detail.aspx?img=0002kh00227

Who are these people? Can it be verified that they indeed are Arabs, and not for example Jewish or Turkish tourists dressed up? Funkynusayri 08:22, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

How funny! I guess we need a new photo. I hate to say that because I'm sure it's going to lead to disagreements on what, based on previous experience. But it's true. I'll try to look around for alternatives. If anyone has any suggestions, please post them here. Tiamat 11:22, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

• The new one was a pretty good solution! Funkynusayri 14:34, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

• Seems like we need a new picture after the Egyptian nationalists removed the former one. Any ideas? Funkynusayri 13:28, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

• Old picture is back without explanation. Funkynusayri 10:38, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Arab Wiki project

Is there one? If not, I think one is needed. Funkynusayri 00:15, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

the new photo

The new of Arabs must be changed. Taha Hussein was very opposed to Arabism and always claimed that he, as well as the rest of the Egyptians, are NOT Arabs. His photo must go. In addition, Samia Gamal and Omar el Mokhtar are Egyptians a/o North Africans, which means that calling them Arabs is very questionable (read the article itself). Please whoever created the imgae, take the time to modify it accordingly. Thank you. --Lanternix 15:20, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Good call, it's been fixed. Egyegy 20:45, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

The Arab population 250 million at highest

• North African nations have Arab populations but have sizeable non Arab minorities, the ruling Elite are Arab/Arabized, but that dont make the whole nation Arab.
• In Egypt only the Elite established Arab Nobility (Al-AShraaf) 5 Million claim Prophet Muhamad lineage, 17 Million claim Hashimi lineage and the rest of the 8 Million claim Kinana lineage. Despite how true these claims are, this number indicates the true number of self identified Arabs. The majority of the Egyptians are mixed and don't identify with the Arabs. --Skatewalk 04:12, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

I want say some thing that arabs was White People and Ancient Egyptian was Black People (sam thing with people of north africa) and there arab tribes traveled to Egypt and what call today Eritrea and Somalia and Ethiopia before islam...and mother of Ishmael .Hagar was arab from Egypt..thanks

there 2 article about arab http://en.wikipedia.org/Arab http://en.wikipedia.org/Arabs --(UNSIGNED)

• Are you American? Because Arabs have a deep culture thats not primitive enough to go by the color code! White and Black are primitive American terms. Arabs have a well known history that goes back 5000years in history. The reason (MOST)Egyptians are not Arabs is cultural more than anything else. And the EGyptians dont have anything to do with West Africans of America.

• I didn't say there are no Arabs in Egypt! I said Arabs make 30% of Egypt population the rest are mixed. These are numbers by Arabs. And the Hagar bloodlines only applies to Ismail himself and not all the Adnani Arabs, Ismail became the leader of Jurhum (a big Qahtani Yemeni tribe) so on Genetic terms the Qahatanis and Adnanis are the same, and Ismail bloodlines didnt add or subtract anything. (the Ismaili ancestory of the Adnanis is symbloic for patriarchal lineage for Prophet Muhammad to Ibrahim who used to stop at Adnan 40 Generations from Ismail. And even if you consider Adnanis partially Egyptian by default, the Majority of the Arabs are the Qahtani because they came 40generations before Ismail more than 2000 years before Adnan existed. And on Genetic terms Adnan is part of Qahtan. Adnan gained its elite status by having the prophet and Ummayids, Abbasid dynasties in Charge of the Caliph....etc

• In Eritrea and the Tigray region of Ethiopia some tribes are of Yemeni origin. Also Rashidya Bedouins are recent Arabs in Eritrea. All together the Arabs in Eritrea maybe a 500,000? I know that some Tigray, Tigriniya claim Yemeni ancestory and the Rashidya are not a big population. In Eritrea Arabic is an official language. However, Ethiopia showed an Anti-Arab policy for the last 40 years so I am not sure how can you consider them Arab except of the minorities in Tigray. I am not sure how many Arabs there are in Eritrea thats why I didnt post Eritrea. --Skatewalk 18:37, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

• Hagar was Qahtani Arab from tribe call Banu 'amlh(بني عاملة) (Yemeni Qahtani tribe) Which traveled to North Arabian peninsula then to North Egypt and Sinai Peninsula
• and they live with People North Egypt and they Married from them and they Speaks in the Language of Ancient Egyptian.Except Section of Banu 'amlh that was in Sinai Peninsula
• and there other arab Qahtani tribes Which traveled Africa before islam..like Yemeni Qahtani tribe 'far(عفار) and they stil have the name of tribe 'far today and they exist in Sudan and Eritrea and Somalia and Ethiopia and Egypt and Yemen (UNSIGNED)
• Banu Amilah are Qahtani but they travelled to Syria around 1st century AD at the earliest. Abraham and Hagar lived aound 2000BC we are talking about 2000years difference! Banu Amilah were and still known in Syria (Lebanon and North Palestine). Never heard of Banu Amilah in Egypt. can you show me any Arab sources indicating Banu Amilah presence in Egypt.--Skatewalk 00:52, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

like I said Banu 'amlh traveled to North Arabian peninsula then to North Egypt and Sinai Peninsula and the Ancient Egyptian was call them Hksos,Hoksos,Alhoksos,Hyksos (هكسوس)

At that time Fifteenth Dynasty ruled over Egypt, whose rulers are known in history as the Hyksos kings. They belonged to the Arab race, but had migrated from Palestine and Syria to Egypt in or about 2000 B. C. and taken possession of the country. The Arab historians and the commentators of the Quran have given them the name of Amaliq (the Amalekites), and this has been corroborated by the recent researches made by the Egyptologists. They were foreign invaders who had got the opportunity of establishing their kingdom because of the internal feuds in the country. We also learn from the history of Egypt that the "Hyksos kings" did not acknowledge the gods of Egypt and, therefore, had imported their own gods from Syria, with a view to spreading their own religion in Egypt. This is the reason why the Quran has not called the king who was the contemporary of Prophet Joseph by the title of "Pharaoh," because this title was associated with the religion of the original people of Egypt and the Hyksos did not believe in it, but the Bible erroneously calls him "Pharaoh". It appears that the editors of the Bible had the misunderstanding that all the kings of Egypt were "Pharaohs." Egyptians called these kings "shepherd kings," translated in Egyptian as "hega-khase". Greek authors later rendered this as "Hyksos," (UNSIGNED)

Ok the Hyksos are ancient Arabs who came from Syria/North Arabia whatever you wat toi call it. This happenned in the 15th century BC. At that time Qahatan was still in Yemen and not in Syria. The first Banu Amilah didn't leave Yemen that early. they left along with Kahlan. The reason we know about Banu Amilah, because they were mentioned in Sabaean scripts of tribes they Subdued this was back in 3rd century BC. Himyar will later destory Saba'a and the Qahatani migration to the north occurs mainly in the 3rd century AD. I know about the Hyksos and other Arab invasions of Egypt, but still Egypt was never Arabized culturally as the Arabian peninsual, Syria and Iraq or even Libya. Arabs ususually lived in nations were the Nomads outnumbered the Fallahen to mainatin a warlike nation. the Fallaheen were the smaller class that supported the Nomads. This worked well in North Africa, Spain and Sicily, but in Egypt the majority remained Fallaheen and the ARanbs were never able to assimilate the natives in joinning them instead the natives were just subdued. Name me one Egyptian native Pan Arabist or leader...etc. All Egypts Pan Arabist greats are Ethnic Arabs and thats mainly to the lack of loyality among the native Egyptians. the 1960s hysteria was all the works of Gamal Abdul Nasser personal Charisma and the EGyptians respect for the powerful. Once he was defeated they turned against him.--Skatewalk 19:42, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Banu Amilah are not Qahtani tribe they lineage from Amalaiq son of...Eram son of Shem son of Noah and they was in Syria and Jordan and they have Different language like all the arab tribes..I don't know about Egypt (UNSIGNED)

• Honestly I find the bible lineage misleading and in many time off. However, I will not rule Banu Amilah as an ancient Arab nation that left Arabia in the early times along with the Akkadians and the Amalik and the first wave of Arab nations to leave Arabia. Many times the Qahtanis and Ancient Arabs lived together as the Qahtani Hadhrimites and Ad in Oman. The Hamdani lists Banu Amilah as an Arab tribe among the Yemeni tribes of Jabal Amil. He mentions that the mountain is named after the Banu Amilah Arab tribe and its settled by the Hamdan, Lakhm and Banu Judham. Later to be joined by the Ghassanids. The Hamdani himself was broad in many of his accounts, but he was the best informed on the Qahtani and Arabian tribes and most the Arab tribes books quote him. Afte all he was among the earliest to explain the concept of the symbolic lineage of the Adnanis to Ismail instead of literal lineage. Anyways atleast we agree that Banu Amilah never set foot in Egypt! I am not sure if there is a way to prove if Banu Amilah were Ancient or Qahtani Arabs, especially because they claim a South Arabian origin (doesn't always mean Qahtani) and they shared Jabal Amil with the Qahtani tribes that arrived 3rd century AD --Skatewalk 08:53, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

• Banu Amilah are Qahtani tribe and they are not lineage from Amalaiq and they was in Syria and part of tribe was in Yemen and they but had migrated from Syria to Egypt in or about 2000 B. C and they rule Egypt from 1648 to 1540 BC and Ancient Egyptian named them 'Hyksos' Which mean shepherd kings. (UNSIGNED)

AlHamdani puts Qahtan lineage at the time of UD (ud in the East aand Qahtan in the west) of South Arabia. Now, their are no mentions of Qahtani migrations/invasions before the Kahlan migration out of Saba'a. If they were their in 2000BC why they were never mentioned by the Assyrians, Greeks or Hebrews?. The Hebrews were clearly specific about their nieghbors who were closely related to the Amalik (Its logical to relate them to the Hyksos also, because they lived on the neck of the bottle of Egypt), but its just fanciful thinking to have Banu Amilah as a Qahatni tribe in the North as early as 2000BC. Qahtan it self is a result of the first Arab migration althoug Qahtan stayed in Arabia it eventually settled the far South. Some Arabs settled the North some settled the South. Qahtan and Ad went to the South. (Ad was later integrated into Qahtan around 600BC), but as early as 2000BC Qahtan was still forming. Can you please show me any reference about (Qahtani presence in the North as early as 2000BC). Also the Hebrews who wrote the book had couple of Joktans who are not Qahtan! (Joktan = the Akkadian "Yaqthan" legend that was first heard of in Mesopotamia) and yo can find an Arabic book for kids called (Hay' bin Yaqthan)reciting the legend of the kid who lived with animals paralel tothe Mesopotamian Joktan (Joktan roughly means the Insomaniac), (Qahtan roughly means the haggard which relates to the desert life!). I am waiting for references, I wanted to edit the Banu Amilah article 1 week ago and I stopped because of the 2000BC date you gave me, so I can't just type that in the article and quote the discussion section on wikipedia. waiting for references thanks --Skatewalk 09:01, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Ancient Arabs

• Noah and Adam are religious figures. I dont want to remove the part where it says "Some Arabs can trace thier lineage to Noah and even Adam! Even if you are a muslim. There is a saying about prophet Muhamad saying that he cant trace his origin further than Adnan and saying "geneoligists lie"
• Adnan is part of Qahtan there is atleast 2000years between them. The Qahtani Arabs don't have anything to do with (Abraham) was a Semite from Ur. (not Qahtani). Jews and muslims claiming him as their own. However, in ethnic terms he is descended of the Chaldees of UR or other Mesopotamian (SEMITES). We kniw that these groups came from the ARabian peninsula directly (as in with the Chaldees or via Akkad as with most the Mesopotamoian Semites.

The Akkadians came from the Arabian Peninsula
the Akkadians among the ancient Arabs--Skatewalk 00:52, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

The Akkadians are not ancient Arabs, because they mixed with Sumerians. They were Arabs before mixing with the Sumerians and the Mesopotamian Non Semites --Alameer 10:39, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

When I say teh Akkadians I mean the Ancient Arabs who lived around Akkad before they invaded Sumer. The Arabs mixed with the native Mesopotomains, but they remained the dominant culture until the Persian period. Did they give up their Akkadian language when they entered Sumer? No. They adopted many Sumerian aspects of life that made them distinguished from the other Arabs, but thats another issue. Today an Arab from Dubai is very different than a Bedouin from Marib and they will have hard time undertsanding each other although they are Arab. Just like a Sophisticated Akkadian in 2200BC will standout from a Nomadic Arab from Central Arabia in 2200BC and at that time Akkadian and Amorite or South Arabian had more in common than Colliqual Tunisi and Colliqual Bahraini, also the Bedouins of the earlier times had easier time understanding each other aslong as they were Semitic because the languages were still basic and they focused on listening instead of reading.--Skatewalk 09:16, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Akkadians were NOT Arabs. — EliasAlucard|Talk 18:32 09 Aug, 2007 (UTC)

Elias, The fist website on google says they came from teh Arabian peninsula. 1990s Historians link a branch of the South Semitic languages to Akkadian. Today the only people in th world to speak Akkadian live in Oman and Yemen. The modern Assyrians well you know whta they speak today!. Akkadians are the middle people between the Arabs and Assyrians.]. Today the only Akkadian speaking people live in South Arabia! If I was an Assyrian who wants to relate to the Akkadians I will try to learn the language first! Especially that Mesopotamia didnt have any specific race due to the Akkadians and later Assyrian [policies of deporatations and mixing. Elias its simple you respect other people, you will be respected. Same with history --Skatewalk 00:17, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

PLEASE USE ENGLISH

I put the above comment through Google Translate (view below); It apparently concerns the language, not the ethnicity. I suggest the comment be deleted. --Targeman 15:54, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

The structure of language any language will not remain stable without change, and Fedha itemized and voice patterns are changing with the use and the passage of generations, and is usually a very slow change, and spoke of things most of the changes that occur, and what changed in life, for example, does not change the English language from year to year; But if he tried to present them to read ancient texts of English they would find it different than talking the difference as the German, Danish, and there are languages are now dead, although some of the assets of living languages of the absence of talk or even understood at the present time, such as the Babylonian, Sumerian, and used abbreviations, and Akkadian, the ancient Egyptian, The Arab Himyaritic, so we Socialized Arabs are the languages of ancient Arabic can not read or understand a word, such as : المسنديه languages : كالحميريه, السبايه, المعينيه, القتبانيه; although they all languages Arabic, but write letters and drawings again, Even if humans learned to read those letters, and he would not understand the vocabulary of those languages - Arabic benchmarked If only a component of modern-easy, and this is still the words that so far their image, even the Arabic language in periods ignorance is difficult for many people to understand many of the terms that are now regarded as a strange, outdated, and became not used because of the theory of evolution in the language, and we look at this text poetic Arab ignorance of a pending Tarafa which was suspended on the Kaaba : Amon molded Alaran Nsatha loved to be on board BRCD aesthetic degradation and Jenna as Svenjah TPRI to Azar Irbid Tabaré Ataka survivors followed, and Deva Deva over the top Gavin Moore temple in Chole Trtai gardens Mule family was Egged Alop Alenza in Dayatha resources Khlagai Qirdad at noon. All this confirms the theory of evolution which languages, and made Arabic language complexes in the modern era strenuous efforts to Arabize many emerging terminology such as : terms of modern civilization, including speeches plane, radio, train, car, and wire. Arabic language Semitism which has witnessed considerable change in the internal stages, and the Holy Qur'an great credit to the Arabic language as the language because of this section are the only languages that maintained the Commissioner Tohjah and universality; While ceased most languages Commissioner What remains of them tomorrow local languages with a small scale such as : Hebrew, pumps, and the Arabic language now spoken by nearly 300 million people, or language, as spoken by non-Arab Muslims nearly the same number as a second language, the first appearance of an Arab is not known exactly when the word appeared Arabs; as well as all the vocabulary derived from the originally containing the characters eyes, a model and perceptive, such as words : Arab voice, and others, and the oldest archaeological text stating the name of Arabs is the nail plate attributed to the Assyrian king (Helmanasr III) in the ninth century BC, in which he said the coalition victory against Aram kings led King Damascus, A sheep and camels from Jendibo of the country Arabs, and reminds some of the scientists-language word - that the Arabs found in some stories, descriptions, Greek, Persian, and was intended to express the Arab peninsula, and there was no Arabic language specific, But all the languages spoken by the tribes and nationalities inhabiting the island, which was called the Arab languages Arabic, a language developed by the Sumerian and others, including language and returned tribe and others, and the languages of convergent, and sometimes after a while to evolve, change, and those languages Mahra ancient language used so far in the tribe and Sokotari, These were not written languages Arabic lettering we have now, the Arabs are Arabs? Had Noah-peace be upon him - many of them sons Sam, which belongs to all peoples-Semitism; Including Arabs, and to Sam Ben Noah five sons are : (toss, and Aum, Arvukhcz, Assyria, Ilam), and people who called later nominated Arabs come back to the first three sons, divided the Arabs to the Arabs past, and the Arabs Sarbh, The Arabs Mestarbh Either toss bin Sam is part of his progeny Arabs extinct, and some Arabs Alaarbh, either of Aum Ben Sam is his progeny some Arabs extinct, either Arvukhcz Ben Sam is his progeny Alaarbh some Arabs, all the Arabs Almstarbh and grandchildren Ibrahim - for-peace; and all of them sons and Muhammad-peace be upon him -. 1-Arabs extinct : the Arabs who were in the Arabian Peninsula in the ancient past, then Padua finished, and returned them to associate hard Awwas returned Ben Ben toss, and called back toss, whom tribe, and Geddis and other descendants toss Sam Ben Ben Noah, and the descendants of Aum Sam Ben Ben Noah : Giants, The owners are Mim - Rass -. 2-Arabs Alaarbh : (and called Qahtaniyah), which they have been old Arabic language, including taking Alaadnanyon modern Arabic, including : Saba, Donkeys, given the contrary - they are the descendants returned, which dates back to toss his progeny Ben-Sam, whom Hadramawt, and Oman - are the descendants of Sam-Arvukhcz Ben, FSPA-for example - which belongs folk Saba is the son deplores Ben expresses bin Qahtan bin Hood-peace be upon him - and Hood offspring returned token, they toss the descendants of Sam Ben Ben Noah, Qahtan Ben Hood who joined him Qahtanion, said he first spoke in Arabic, It was indeed generated express bin Qahtan, the heart of most Arabs and the extinct Alaarbh, it is one of the origin of ancient Semitic languages, and the ancient language that has evolved afternoon after afternoon, divided into two sections : a-language Arab followers old : when folks south of the Arabian peninsula, such as : Almaineh, Sbaih, Himyaritic, writing literally Alemsendi. B-language Arab northeasterly old : when folks north of the Arabian peninsula, such as : Althmoudih languages, Allehyanet, Purism, writing literally Althmoudi, now is not possible for any of us to understand something of these people writing in both North or South, but the characters and those studying literature. 3-Arabs Almstarbh : (and called Adnaniyah), and hard Prophet Ismail bin Ibrahim - them - peace, due to Arvukhcz ratios Ibrahim Ben Noah Sam Ben-peace be upon him - When Ibrahim was God-peace be upon him - that leaves son Ismail-for-peace in the valley irrelevant transplantation; Ibrahim was the instilling Adnaniyah Arabs who will form part of the Arabs later, when the spring of Zamzam water came from the folk dragged Qahtanien lived there with Ismail, taking them Arab southern something old mixing them with the language of his father Chaldean Then came Alamalik and married Ismail of them, and then dragged married, and had a lot of the child, and spread his progeny, and it was - grandchildren after several generations-a man named Adnan, it belongs sons of Ishmael, The affected language in Arabic hangs Northern existing then, including : Althmoudih, Allehyanet affected apparent, and emerged from that intermarriage between Arab languages of the South (contrary, Alamalik), and North (Althmoudih, Allehyanet), in addition to the terms of the Chaldean easy (Ibrahim) created the Arabic language is the mother of modern classical Arabic also come, have lasted for more than two thousand years until evolved into classical Arabic, having undergone a year of development and change. 7 ** classical Arabic : modern Arabic language evolved through hundreds of years, and after more than two years of the birth of Islam has become-as-called language (harmful), and are used in the north of the island, had ruled on the Arabic language Northern old and replaced, while they were called Arabic language of the Old South (Donkeys) ratio to the greatest kingdoms of Yemen then, and almost the first half of the first millennium AD expire until there was a language of the Quraish, and the language of Rabia, and the language of Kdah, called these languages and were still in that stage accents, but people understand each other easily. They also understand the language and Donkeys also less, and was floating in the Koran that period is great event which immortalized one of the languages of Arabs then, is a language which came down-and that was the finest languages Arab-language Quraish, named language Quraish Since then classical Arabic-Allah Almighty says in the Holy Quran - ((and Wert)), ((This book validated Arabic tongue)), ((This is a clear Arabic tongue)). * O evolution of Arabic script : we said that the ancient Semitic languages were written and Althmoudi Alemsendi nets, and then entered with the modern Arabic language Line Alenbeti taken from the Phoenicians, and said that the proportion of the purchased farms Bensmail-for-peace, and this is the line in place Althmoudi Line north of the island, The line has become harmful to the language adopted in Arabic (modern), the Arab language Donkeys (Old South), maintaining Line Alemsendi, taking Line Alenbeti - who is the father of modern Arab-Line is also evolving, The oldest written Arabic text discoverer line Alenbeti is carved (Alenmarh) discovered in Syria, which is 328 m for the year. In the period prior to Islam, there were other lines of a modern language such as harmful : Line Hairi ratio (the confusion), and Line-Anbari ratio (the Anbar), and came when Islam was used in Qureish Line is the line Alenbeti developer, a line used by the Prophet-peace be upon him - in writing letters to the kings and rulers then, and nobody in the images of some of those letters different from the modern Arab line, which evolved from the line, and some experts believe that line Alenbeti developer Arabs old, the oldest of which advances carved (butter), The carved (or beauty) (568 m, 513 m). 8 ** Line modern Arab : Alhijazion was the first to edit the Arab Alenbeti Line, and began to change even more closely Umayyad era began when Abu Black Aldali Ptnekit characters, and then ordered Abdul Malik bin Marwan guarantee Laithy and Yahya bin survive formed characters, Vbdawa action points above crafts indication of the hole, The point beneath indication of the broken, and a point from the northerners indication of the annexation, and then the evolution of the situation to develop a small italics over the opening trades, and J. small break, and F. small annexation, and then the evolution of the situation of the current format in the conquest and annexation of breakage. Arab Airlines has also been widespread in the country and Alamassar. * O One of the advantages of the Arabic language : Arabic language features that distinguish them from all the world's languages, and makes it a real blessing enjoyed by knowledgeable people, and loving it : it is the language of the Koran - which chose the Almighty - that maybe by another written by Sitabd by the end of human history. They are less sophisticated languages of the world since the fall of the Koran, there is no language for over a thousand years and still people can read and understand the texts easily like, and then Hebrew. Expression advantage of the Arabic language, which includes the name of each vocabulary, and act, and characters, and despite the presence of expression in some other languages, such as : Hindi, Hebrew, pumps, and Germanic, and the ancient Egyptian; However, express some minor without some words. It features control the floor as the annexation of the opening and breaking, followed by information-for example - to be read by the seven formed (science, science, science, science, science, science, science).

• Google bad translater

Ancient Arabs

The article Ancient Arabs has just been created by a new user. That article is of a poor standard, even worse than this, and would be better merged into this. — Gareth Hughes 23:30, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Gareth Hughes, The article was created by User:Alameer I recovered the article after User:EliasAlucard moved it to ancient Semites. The article is irrelevant to this article! This article (as of now) is related to the cultural Arab term (which includes Non ethnic Arabs such a Egyptians and North Africans). The Ancient Arab article is related to the Ethnic Arabs and the line should be drawn between the Cultural broad Arab term and Ethnic Arab. I do appreciate your genuine efforts to improve the Arab articles --Skatewalk 00:02, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

article content is unsalvageable. The title should be a redirect to Pre-Islamic Arabia. Any valid material can be inserted there. dab (𒁳) 10:37, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

(Dbachmann) Zionists should keep their hands off Arab articles --The12e32nd 00:16, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Ancient Arabia vs Pre Islamic Arabia

These are two different articles.

• Ancient Arabia dicusses the older History of Arabia (pre Hellenic Invasion 330BC)
• PreIslamic Arabia is related to the few centuries before Islam.

Ancient Arabia is simply part of the History of Arab nations. Are you an Arab? Assyrianists should focus on fixing their own confusing articles! instead of vandalizing Arab articles--Skatewalk 07:55, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

1. ""Arab: The relative importance of these factors is estimated differently by different groups. Most people who consider themselves Arabs do so on the basis of the overlap of the political and linguistic definitions, but some members of groups which fulfill both criteria reject the identity on the basis of the genealogical definition. Not many people consider themselves Arab on the basis of the political definition without the linguistic one — thus, ] or ] usually identify themselves as non-Arab — but some do (for instance, some Berbers do consider themselves Arabs and Arab nationalists saw the Kurds as Arabs)."". "Economic Expert". {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help); URL–wikilink conflict (help)

• B-Class Ethnic groups articles
• Unknown-importance Ethnic groups articles
• WikiProject Ethnic groups articles
• B-Class Saudi Arabia articles
• Low-importance Saudi Arabia articles
• WikiProject Saudi Arabia articles