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If you have any questions or problems, no matter what they are, leave me a message on my talk page. Or, please come to the new contributors' help page, where experienced Wikipedians can answer any queries you have! Or, you can just type {{helpme}} on your user page, and someone will show up shortly to answer your :questions.

We're so glad you're here! --Simonkoldyk 18:44, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your warm and helpful welcome!

As a non-native English speaker I'm always a bit worried that my contribution will be unintelligible.

{{helpme}}

Have I done anything wrong by creating a new article? W. Frank 18:54, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

No, you haven't. Be bold in updating pages! I've also answered this on Talk:Cabragh House. --ais523 10:01, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

PS: I'm originally from Dresden in Germany but was a foundling by the occupying British forces after the firestorm. I'm semi-retired now. W. Frank 18:54, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

{{helpme}} I noticed that Misplaced Pages doesn't have an article on the oldest primary school in New Zealand and I don't feel qualified to write one. Instead I've e-mailed the current Principal of Nelson Central School and suggested he contribute one - was that a silly thing to do? W. Frank 19:00, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

{{helpme}}

Why do I have two distinctly10:22, 6 December 2006 (UTC)W. Frank different user pages?

The older (helpful) one is at http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:W_Frank and the newer (blank) one is at: http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=User_talk:W._Frank&redirect=no

?? W. Frank 10:22, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

You are User:W. Frank; the other page is at User talk:W Frank (notice the . after the initial initial in your username). User talk:W Frank should be deleted because it corresponds to a non-existent user; if you find the information useful, you can copy it to this page first; to request its deletion, place {{db-nouser}} on the page (in this case; there is a different tag for each speedy deletion reason). --ais523 10:47, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The former (not this page but the other) seems to have been created by mistake, as there is no user account by that name, you can safely ignore it or if you like redirect it here. Michael Billington (talk • contribs) 10:50, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, one and all!

I've marked the phantom for deletion now ( I hope, I'm so stupid I may have done it wrong again...) W. Frank 10:55, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Nelson Central School

I put a {{prod}} message on Nelson Central School because the article doesn't yet contain any content. I realise that you are waiting for Dr Potaka to respond to your email, but the article could have been created when he replies. Having empty articles make Misplaced Pages look bad. The effect of the message I put on the article is to ensure that it is deleted if nothing happens for five days or so. You could also start the article with information from the Ministry of Education. See how other New Zealand school articles are formatted, for example Logan Park High School.-gadfium 05:10, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry about that. I'm very new to all this and there's a lot to learn. Thank you for your help. My motivation was that I did not like a dead (or red) internal link in my Cabragh House article...
W. Frank 12:20, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Also regarding the Nelson Central School article, any commentary about the article should go onto the article's talk page rather than onto the article itself. This is a general Misplaced Pages convention (see WP:TPG).
--Lost tourist 15:06, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry about that, as you see above, I'm brand new and (hopefully) learning about this wonderful animal every day.

I've also replied to you on your user page and also in the article's talk page.

Just this once, and hopefully just for a few hours (maximum 99) could you leave the article as it is until Dr Potaka or another editor shows up to start it?

Please forgive me for being a Newbie editor. When writing my article for Cabragh House, I noticed a missing link for Nelson Central School. I then e-mailed Dr Potaka, Principal of Nelson Central School, suggesting he create (or delegate members of his staff) to create the missing article.

Subsequently I have received e-mails from others in the Nelson region indicating that he may be temporarily indisposed for the next couple of days.

I suggest, therefore, that you leave the Nelson Central School page in the condition I have reverted it to just now and including the scheduled for deletion box. That way if he, or no other editor, shows up to correct and expand the article, it will be deleted automatically in 5 days and if volunteers (or Dr Potaka himself, since I assume he will also be a Newbie to Misplaced Pages) show up in the meantime they will have a skeleton on which to hang flesh.

Thank you for your tolerance, forbearance and understanding
W. Frank 15:03, 7 December 2006 (UTC)! W. Frank 15:19, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

When I suggested you see how other school articles were formatted, I didn't mean for you to copy the whole article into Nelson Central School. You ended up with a mess of information mostly about the other school. I've now changed the article into a bare-bones article about Nelson Central. It no longer needs the prod. Feel free to improve this article yourself, but don't revert it to the previous mess.-gadfium 19:08, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

But I didn't, gadfium.

According to the edit history, that Revision as of 12:52, 7 December 2006 was made by 89.240.127.10

I may be stupid but I'm not so stupid as to spell it "Neslon Centraql Skool" as that anonymous editor did...

However, I do take your general point and I will go in and try and clean it up a bit later this afternoon. Thank you for your useful and pertinent comments.

W. Frank 15:26, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Your change to Persian Walnut

I reverted your change to Persian Walnut because at the time the walnuts were distributed by merchant marines, who were also, like their civilian counterparts maritime merchants. If I am wrong about this, please explain on the talk page before reverting. Thank you. KP Botany 18:50, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Mmm. Are we talking here about Royal Marines (the military) who were doing a bit of trading, or the English Merchant Navy (also doing a bit of trading) or what exactly?W. Frank 20:08, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Diocese of Nelson

I reverted your change to the Anglican Church in Aotearoa, New Zealand and Polynesia link. This is because the name of the diocese is exactly that - with the comma. This is because the Anglican church in NZ is made up of three threads or traditions - Tikanga Pakeha (broadly those of European origin), Tikanga Maori (broadly those of Maori origin) and Tikanga Pasifika (broadly those of Pacific Island origin). The "Aotearoa" part of the name refers to the five Hui Amorangi, the "New Zealand" to the seven Dioceses - both of these split up New Zealand, but differently. So you are right that Aotearoa is New Zealand, but not that the name should have a slash in it. Ringbark 21:55, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for correcting my inadvertent error - I mistakenly thought that this was an example of ignorant grammar rather than a considered ecclesiastical decision. God be with you! W. Frank 13:48, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Appreciate your support on deleters

Thanks frank, it takes a lot to stand up in support for what you feel is worth speaking to. web 2.0 is a great development on line. Hope Fiji can work it out and not have UN intervention.

RoddyYoung 12:43, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Are you threatening me?

Vlad fedorov 17:06, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

No.W. Frank 14:15, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

GRU article

Your comment on GRU page history is uncivil and personal attack. If you continue restoring obvious falsification that GRU was helping Saddam Hussein and would continue personal attack on me, I would report you on administrators noticeboard.Vlad fedorov 17:06, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

We will have to agree to disagree that my comments were an uncivil and personal attack.

This is what I wrote as a comment:

"=== Large scale deletions without consensus ===

At 16:38, 8 April 2007 (UTC) I placed a comment on the talk page of User_talk:Vlad_fedorov who has been conspicuous by

• his absence from these pages
• his consecutive deletions, without any prior discussion, of material provided by other editors

This is the exact quote of what I wrote on his user page:

"Misplaced Pages as a community has rules to prevent edit wars.

One of these is the 3RR rule.

If you wish to delete large passages of another editor's work without providing any references, it is more polite to discuss your proposed changes on the article's talk page FIRST.

If you do not, your excisions may be regarded as vandalism.

Please proceed immediately to talk:GRU and discuss your point of view (POV) with fellow editors there before reverting this article again.

If you do not, you run the risk of being blocked from Misplaced Pages.

You may find that Misplaced Pages:Wikiquette provides some helpful guidance. Thank you for your anticipated compliance."

Within less than half an hour (and without any further discussion or comment) at 17:05, 8 April 2007 Vlad fedorov had expunged my comments using the following as his edit summary: "Personal offence removed"

I am posting my comments here because I have a strong suspicion that any further help I offer on Vlad fedorov's user pages will also be expunged.W. Frank 17:31, 8 April 2007 (UTC)"

Now I have emphasised some points that I believe are relevant to your deprecated behaviour with regards to GRU, your own talk pages and elsewhere:

Misplaced Pages's contributors come from many different countries and cultures. We have different views, perspectives, and backgrounds, sometimes varying widely. Treating others with respect is key to collaborating effectively in building an encyclopedia.

Principles of Misplaced Pages etiquette

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  • However, don't hesitate to let the other party know that you're not comfortable with their tone in a neutral way – otherwise they might think you're too dense to understand their "subtlety", and you'll involuntarily encourage them (e.g. "I know you've been sarcastic above, but I don't think that's helping us resolve the issue. However, I don't think your argument stands because...").
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How to avoid abuse of talk pages

• Most people take pride in their work and in their point of view. Egos can easily get hurt in editing, but talk pages are not a place for striking back. They're a good place to comfort or undo damage to egos, but most of all they're for forging agreements that are best for the articles they're attached to. If someone disagrees with you, try to understand why, and in your discussion on the talk pages take the time to provide good reasons why you think your way is better.
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Working towards a neutral point of view

When we correct violations of the neutral point of view (NPOV) policy, we often make the mistake of using phrases like "foo points out that" or "xy explains". These phrases themselves can be seen as non-NPOV, as they imply a certain agreement by Misplaced Pages. The original author then often sees this as non-NPOV and deletes the changes, and eventually, an edit war results. It is better to use the following procedure:

1. Inquire politely on the article's talk page about aspects of the article you consider non-NPOV (unless they are really egregious), and suggest replacements.
2. If no reply comes, make the substitutions. (Use your watchlist to keep track of what you want to do.)
3. If a reply comes, try to agree about the wording to be used.

That way, when an agreement is reached, an edit war is very unlikely. The disadvantage is that the article stays in an unsatisfying state for a longer period of time, but an article that changes frequently doesn't create good impression with other Wikipedians or of the project as a whole.

A few things to bear in mind

• Misplaced Pages articles are supposed to represent all views (more at NPOV), instead of supporting one over another, even if you believe something strongly. Talk ("discussion") pages are not a place to debate value judgments about which of those views are right or wrong or better. If you want to do that, there are venues such as Usenet, public weblogs and other wikis. Use article talk pages to discuss the accuracy/inaccuracy, POV bias, or other problems in the article, not as a soapbox for advocacy.
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• Misplaced Pages invites you to be bold. Before initiating discussion, ask yourself: is this really necessary to discuss? Could I provide a summary with my edit and wait for others to quibble if they like?
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• Though editing articles is acceptable (and, in fact, encouraged), editing the signed words of another editor on a talk page or other discussion page is generally not acceptable, as it can alter the intent or message of the original comment and misrepresent the original editor's thoughts. Try to avoid editing another editor's comments unless absolutely necessary.

If you really continue to regard any of this as a personal attack (as opposed to an attack on your intolerable attempts at political censorship) then I think it would indeed be a very good idea to "report on administrators noticeboard" - perhaps I should not have pointed you towards the WP articles referenced above.W. Frank 14:38, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I have published the first text on case of Alexey Galkin so-called "confessions". The other texts would follow shortly. Especially on the allegation of hiding Saddam Hussein's "weapons of mass destruction" and allegations of promoting the terrorism. I advise you, as you are not competent in Russian and couldn't study Russian sources which are usually not published by Western media, to stop your dispute. I would like to note that both of the articles I use in my text about Alexey Galkin are from Novaya Gazeta - which is anti-Putin newspaper. One of their journalists was Anna Politkovskaya. Both of the articles are supportive of Alexey Galkin. They contain not only the interview and transcript of "confession", but also comments of the newspaper journalists and conclusion of phsychologist who has studied the videotape of Galkin "confessions". Moreover, the transcript of Alexey Galkin press conference which was interrupted in two places by Abu Movsaev is telling enough about voluntarity of these confessions. If I would describe in such way all accounts of false allegations in this article, the article itself would be bigger and contain rather irrelevant information, than infromation on ]. Vlad fedorov 08:02, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't really think that my user talk pages (or yours) are the place to discuss this. Please take this to talk:GRU and discuss your point of view (POV) with fellow editors there. W. Frank 14:43, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Warrenpoint Ambush

W.Frank, firstly howiya! secondly the terrorism category in the - the term terrorism is a divisive and largely POV term and is outlined as a term to be avoided by wiki. It is usually used where the target of an attack was specifically civilians. I know you didn't add the cat but you replaced it, however, it is an incorrect and POV category - unless you think the British Army targeted the civilian they killed because they thought he was a civilian and are happy to write into the article that the British Army are terrorists for killing the civilian then I would suggest that this category does not suit this article.

P.S. I am always happy to help in any way and I am always contactable on my talk page. regards --Vintagekits 15:20, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

1) Good day to you, Sir! Thank you for your friendly offer of assistance and for your tone of voice. I try and steer clear of controversy since there seem to be so many more impolite editors on Misplaced Pages these days.

2) I do so agree with your point of view regarding less inflammatory wording in article text - however, in categorisations we need to be brief and pithy - a bit like a tabloid headline, in fact.

However, if you check the edit logs for the article Warrenpoint Ambush you will see that I did not restore, add or replace the Category:Terrorist incidents in the 1970s.

It was already there in the version by the previous editor user:One Night In Hackney. Please see http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Warrenpoint_Ambush&oldid=121540790 if you doubt my veracity.

My general policy is to have as many helpful categorisations as possible since it helps readers explore the wonderful source of knowledge that is Misplaced Pages - especially children.

Now, I wonder if we can continue to discuss this at Misplaced Pages:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_April_9#Category:IRA_killings

Since I'm always reluctant to censor the Good Faith efforts of others, may I ask you to copy edit this dialogue there?

3) Sadly, in this era of assymetrical warfare the concept of civilian has rather lapsed. I was a foundling in the smoking ruins of a city that was "terrorised" by the American hero Winston S Churchill and his Terrorflieger. Do you not think the categorisation is correct since the Warrenpoint Ambush article records one of the greatest military defeats of the British Army in recent years?W. Frank 15:45, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

This should make things clear

Why do I edit Irish Republicanism articles? Perhaps because they needed improving? I'll take selected examples from my user page.

• Dessie O'Hare - Version before I edited it, WP:BLP disaster wouldn't you agree?

The latest version that you edited is much more encyclopaedic and multi-faceted; well done and you must be proud of all your hard work!

I'll look at the other articles when I have time - please be patient.

W. Frank 19:41, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

• Colombia Three - Version before I edited it, a lot of the information wasn't sourced by the one (!) reference provided, and it too had WP:BLP problems.
• Northern Bank robbery - Version before I edited it, again major sourcing and WP:BLP problems.
• Provisional Irish Republican Army - Version before I edited it, looks a lot better and has approx 30 more references.
• Sinn Féin - Version before I started improving it, now has triple the number of references.
• Chronology of Provisional IRA actions - Version before I edited it, had no references as opposed to the 74 (and growing) number it has at present.

So is it unreasonable for an editor with an interest in a certain subject area to concentrate on that subject area, considering the terrible state of those articles? Should the editor be branded as a "comrade" for improving the articles? I don't think so. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 18:27, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I think you have to make allowances for language confusion here. I don't regard the terms republican or comrade pejorative (of themselves and obviously it depends on the context)... {long passages moved/archived to "Green Zone"} ...

Large scale deletions of the text by Biophys

Hello W.Frank,

Please come back to GRU article where Biophys who published allegations of GRU participating in bombing of buildings in Moscow and rest of Russia and allegations of helping Saddam to hide his weapons now deletes the whole texts without discussion. Vlad fedorov 04:05, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Newry mortar attack

Allow me to explain why IRA is used in that article, to prevent further confusion. Post-1972 the Official IRA was on ceasefire, and the only active group using the term IRA was the Provisionals, which remained the case until the Continuity IRA became active in 1996. Unless more than one IRA is being referred to in a particular article or there's a risk of confusion, the standard usage is the acronym IRA. PIRA is not an acronym generally used except by the British Armed Forces, the common name in British, Irish and American media is the IRA. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 02:09, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I understand. However, I think that a certain degree of precision is required in encyclopedia articles. US presidents may say they are making a state visit to England, but we both know that, if it is a state visit, they really mean the UK. However, you are by far the expert when it comes to these matters, so please feel free to revert my edit if you feel it muddies rather than clarifies the waters. Tschuess! W. Frank 02:15, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Well I thought it best to explain, should you be about to make any further changes of that nature. The media never (well, hardly ever) use the PIRA term, and even the PIRA article makes it clear it's more commonly known as the IRA. I think some clarification may be needed on the Fitzgerald part similar to your edit, but not in that exact form. At present the sentence starts with "Irish Prime Minister Garret FitzGerald", so it would make more sense to clarify that particular Irish rather than the latter one possibly? I'll change the PIRA parts back for now, but await further discussion tomorrow on that part. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 02:23, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I hope the edits I've made to the PIRA article now meet with your approval - I've clarified the reference to the Irish PM and inserted a fact template. I'm off to enjoy the good weather while it lasts now, I hope the sun shines on you too! W. Frank 18:49, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

I actually thought that statement was sourced later in the article, but as it transpired it wasn't but it isn't really under dispute anyway and it's since been sources. The Newry page still needs slight tweaking I think, I'll take a look at it later. Sanitise, moi? One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 06:36, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Category:IRA killings

Hi. I see you recreated this category. I have deleted it again; I left the talk page undeleted and suggest you take forward any argument for recreating the category there. Although the result of the AfD debate was keep, I think the debate has moved on a good way since then and can see no useful purpose now in retaining it. Please let me know if you disagree. --Guinnog 17:31, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

British Isles edit

Hi Frank. I removed "geographical" because it is likely to lead to conflict and was unnecessary - if the article begins with "The British Isles is a group of islands ..." why is it necessary to explain that the term is "geographical"? I added "... and its use is avoided in relations between the governments of the Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom" because this is true (if necessary I can add references?) and it is notable that an otherwise common term would be deliberately avoided in dialogue between the two sovereign states that occupy the region. This is why I believe that "geographical" is likely to lead to conflict. When describing the names of places, "geographical" and "political" terms are often contrasted with each other. "Geographical" can be read to imply that a term is a neutral, not to be confused with the world of politics. Opening a sentence that deals with political objections to a term by stating that the term is "geographical" thus implies a judgement on the validity of those objection. --sony-youth 00:46, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your explanation. I think we will have to agree to disagree. I think that one or two words in the lede emphasising that the "British Isles" is a geographical term rather than a political term or a statement of colonial possession is appropriate to dispel any confusion right from the start. The business about the naming dispute is dealt with in depth in a separate section and a separate article referenced within the British Isles article, so I think the emphasis is wrong. God bless! W. Frank 12:46, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Deletion

Misplaced Pages:Deletion policy Tyrenius 04:24, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. I've given up on the weather here in Glasgow ever improving, so I'm off to start my belated holiday. W. Frank ✉ 07:37, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

HPA

I was heartened by your extremely intelligent and factual remarks on the AfD for the Hereditary Peerage Association, which has become quite a talked-about body in London. The nominator is constantly AfDing anything to do with the old British establishment which he quite obviously loathes. Thank you again for your comments. A breath of fresh air. David Lauder 19:57, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

If you think that he voted in support of the HPA for any other reason than to have a go at me then I am shocked.--Vintagekits 21:52, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Go and sit on your perch.W. Frank ✉

Bloody Friday (1972)

Please stop removing sourced statements and changing them with your preferred POV version. You have no consensus for these changes, and have refused to engage in discussion on the talk page. If you continue I will seek dispute resolution. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 18:20, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

You are not giving editors a chance to either discuss or implement changes without reversion. This article is not your personal possession and I am quite happy to discuss changes with you - indeed that is my preference - however the consensus that you speak of is a recent status quo achieved through driving away other editors with a less vehement and single purpose point of view. None of the quoted references support your POV that the lede should summarise an illusionary targeting of military and civilian economic targets rather than the results of the bombings. Just actually read the BBC articles you are so fond of quoting. You are in grave dange of breaching Key Policies 1, 2, 3, 5 and 6. W. Frank ✉ 18:35, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Dispute resolution here you come then. One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 18:36, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Irish neutrality during World War II

The article Irish neutrality during World War II has been nominated for deletion. Please add your opinion to the discussion on AfD. --sony-youth 22:16, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Warning: Colombia Three

Welcome to Misplaced Pages. We invite everyone to contribute constructively to our encyclopedia. However, adding content without citing a reliable source is not consistent with our policy of verifiability. Take a look at the welcome page to learn more about contributing to this encyclopedia. Thank you.---Theoldanarchist_Comhrá 23:49, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

This is an unhelpful comment; see: here.--Major Bonkers (talk) 09:50, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Arb Com

You might be interested in this Arb Com case. --Major Bonkers (talk) 09:50, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for alerting me to this, Major, but life isn't long enough; I've already been victimised by the provisional wing of the wikipedia administration and I don't want to be set upon by the FSB as well - these guys are professional you know, in every sense of the wordW. Frank ✉ 17:53, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Birmingham pub bombings and other articles

Please stop changing text against the consensus on Talk:Provisional Irish Republican Army. Brixton Busters 10:33, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I concur with above statement.--BigDunc 10:39, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree, it's time wasting. --Domer48 20:11, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I see other editors have asked you to stop, and you have ignored this and are continuing to be disruptive. Please stop, thank you. Brixton Busters 08:12, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Other members of WP:IRA, whose line on this is well documented on various talk pages. There is a valid contrary view. Bastun 14:52, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Nope, the most common usage of the abreviation for the Provos is IRA.--Vintagekits 14:58, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Precision and clarity trump ambiguity and common mistakes of speech. President George Bush may think he's taking his English poodle for a walk but our Encyclopaedia would probably introduce the stance that he was making a State visit to the United Kingdom. All rats are mammals but the reverse is not necessarily true and the various flavours of terrorist organisation need to be distinguished precisely (where the source of the stench is precisely known and adequately referenced by reliable sources).

WP:NOT#ADVOCATE. W. Frank ✉  16:03, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I fail to see what ambiguity there could ever be if after the first mention of Provisional Irish Republican Army there is the abrv (IRA) which would then follow for the remainder of the article. That is the current state of play. Unless you get references and a consensus to overturn that common usage then please do not edit war by changing it until you do. regards--Vintagekits 16:11, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Have you had a chance to actually read WP:NOT#ADVOCATE yet? There are some subtle but basic points there. The Provisional Irish Republican Army is very intent on shoving home at every chance its particularly electorally attractive POV (for provisional SF) that it is the true inheritor to the IRA.

To lighten the tone a bit, this is what G pointed out to me:

"Sorry, Brixton, I'm confused. When you say they became the IRA instead of being the Provisional IRA - does that mean they became the Official IRA? Or is there a group out there calling itself "The IRA (accept no substitutes!)"? Do you mean the

• IRA? Or the
• IRA? Or the
• IRA? Or the
• IRA? Or the
• IRA? Or the
• IRA?
• Irish Army? (And let's not even go near the Irish names and/or translations of all of the above).

Conclusion: Disambiguation and accuracy are good things. Moral: Always look on the bright side of life.

(stolen from another user with minor amendments).

Our readership is not just from Europe you know and you'd hate to see them leave our project more confused than they when they arrived to be informed. I really don't mind if you start in the lede with "Provisional Irish Republican Army (PIRA)" and then refer to "PIRA" throughout OR just use the full and distinguishing title throughout.

What we should not do is do something like: Provisional Irish Republican Army (HEROES) or Provisional Irish Republican Army (SCUM). Precision is always better.

Now, while you're here Vinny, I've done some radical copy editing to the article on Sir Henry Gore-Booth, 5th Baronet you started and that you might like to look at. I don't really want to be drawn into a long discussion here at this particular time - especially when the consensus described doesn't really exist yet. Please go and discuss on the relevant article's discussion pages if you really think you have a new point to make.  W. Frank ✉  16:42, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

You appear as confused as Bastun. IRA has been used to refer to the Provos for a considerable amount of time, anyone wanting to change the acronym usage to (the incorrect) PIRA needs consensus to do so. Brixton Busters 16:46, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

WF! Describing the IRA as "terrorists" is POV; the phrase cannot be used in Wiki articles for that very reason. Suggesting they are "rats" is offensive and breaching WP:NOT#ADVOCATE as well as probably a dozen more Wiki rules. Claiming that Freedom Fighters "stink" is partisan and abusive and provocative and the sort of thing that were it applied to "the other side" would have a decent Nationalist up to her neck in Arbcoms and RfCs. But of course Wiki is NEUTRAL and not censored and so forth...as certain Admins keep on telling me! Poor old VK below can't even express himself freely any more. (Sarah777 16:43, 12 August 2007 (UTC))

Text's a bit jumpy around here, innit?

W, "the consensus described doesn't really exist yet". Herman and Chomsky wrote the book called "manufacturing consent" - brilliant stuff I recall. And if they turned their fine minds to Wiki they'd not be too worried about the tiny resistance of Vinny and the boys. Is the Big Lies told by States that kill the tens of millions. Ain't it so? (btw, I agree with G's reasoning on the lineage of the Provos); but it's a bit of a Wiki-thingy to use the commonest term, whether it is the clearest or not. (Thankfully the Wiki "consensus" is utterly inconsistent in the application of this convention). The truth is totally irrelevent on Wiki; only verifiable lies count, apparently.

Indeed W....I was shocked myself to learn that! (Sarah777 17:02, 12 August 2007 (UTC))

Sarah: Because of what G told me, I will make one exception to my request not to post here this particular week. My Rufname is Frank. I have been called Frank for more than 60 years. Unfortunately "Frank" was already taken when I chose a user name.

And I do appreciate the very valid philosophical point you are trying to make. But here is neither the place nor the time to make it.

Have you see the good news about your (plural - lousy language English) arbcom?

There is a new proposed (and more appropriate and targeted) remedy for you. W. Frank ✉  17:11, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Apologies Frank - didn't know about the your request; picked up the sparring above on my watchlist and took an interest. No incivility intended. (Sarah777 17:20, 12 August 2007 (UTC))

Apology accepted, Sarah. (Only one needed - nothing wrong with your argument - just the wrong time and place). You'll always be welcome on my page and G's - just don't go near that "naughty cupboard". I'll probably not be editing on Misplaced Pages very much in the future (except to keep an eye on tending G's talk page). G introduce me to WP as a quiet, sedentary hobby for my retirement when I hurt my leg. Little did he know. W. Frank ✉  17:28, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Again, there is no consensus to change to PIRA, please stop. Your claim that WP:NOT applies is incorrect, the overwhelming majority of sources use the correct term of IRA, so that is what we use also. Brixton Busters 14:06, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Propaganda, advocacy, or recruitment of any kind, commercial, political, religious, or otherwise is not allowed on our project. Of course, an article can report objectively about such things, as long as an attempt is made to approach a neutral point of view. You might wish to go to Usenet or start a blog if you want to convince people of the merits of your favourite views.

No false "consensus" that can be achieved by team editing, bullying, harassment, Wikilawyering and driving away WP:NPOV editors by tedious and relentless repetition of your desire for ambiguity and imprecision will ever over-ride our policies and guidelines. You have a choice: either use the unambiguous Provisional Irish Republican Army throughout relevant atrocity articles OR mention the primary article once in the lede followed by the precise and unambiguous abbreviation of PIRA.

Now I've read all the specious arguments you've advanced in the cause of advancing political propaganda elsewhere and I doubt I'll ever be convinced that you should succeed in your consistent and concerted campaign of obfuscation, so please don't bother me again here on this particular topic - unless of course you wish to e-mail me with NEW information that trumps WP:NOT#ADVOCATE. NPOV is absolute and non-negotiable. W. Frank ✉  14:28, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, Misplaced Pages doesn't work that way. There is a discussion going on elsewhere, you cannot ignore it as you see fit. I have no wish to communicate with you off-Wiki, due to the harassment perpetrated against me by your close associate I take my privacy very seriously. Brixton Busters 14:34, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

What "harassment" and which "close associate" exactly? W. Frank ✉  14:38, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Please also stop adding "terrorist" as you did in this edit. Please see WP:WTA and WP:NPOV. Brixton Busters 15:45, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Try and stop peddling political propaganda and really try and understand what writing articles from a neutral point of view means. It's not simply a list of "naughty words" - you've been editing long enough to know that by now.

Why do you think PIRA was and is a proscribed organisation North and South of the border? It's not for breaching planning regulations but because of the considered views of at least two governments that unlawfully blowing civilians to bits, and kneecapping teenagers in furtherance of an irredentist political campaign was a "terrorist campaign" W. Frank ✉  15:53, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Please also stop using your talk page as a political soapbox. Misplaced Pages guidelines and policy are clear on the use of the term "terrorist", please leave your personal opinions out of articles. Brixton Busters 15:54, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

As a matter of interest, BB, where are the "guidelines and policy" clear on the use of the word "terrorist" in such context? Over the years, I've never heard of, say, RTÉ, toning it down to that level and I'm curious as I don't believe that WP:NPOV covers that given that it's pretty factual and verifiable - Alison ☺ 16:02, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I see you've not addressed any of the points I've made, BB.

And it's rather unsymmetrical to accuse me of soapboxing since

1. You started this campaign here instead of using the article's discussion page
2. You seem to concentrate on advancing the political ambitions of PIRA and its political wing by introducing political propaganda in articles almost exclusively related to PIRA and its stated political objectives. I know WP does get a bit Alice in Wonderland sometimes, but yours is the minority political POV pushing not mine.

Now this is the last time I ask you to stop using my user talk page as a vehicle for either harassment or political propaganda. Any more of it and I will follow the precedent you have set on your own user talk page. W. Frank ✉  16:04, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Alison, please see the WP:TERRORIST shortcut to the relevant section of WP:WTA. The way in which the word was added was a breach of that guideline and of WP:NPOV. Brixton Busters 16:06, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Very interesting, but WP:TERRORIST is a guideline not policy. Given the extensive use of the term by the wider media over the years and the proliferation of cites, its use in context is not over the top, nor is it set in stone - Alison ☺ 16:18, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

You have misunderstood me Alison. I obviously have no objection against a qualfied use of it as recommended, for example "what X, Y and Z described as a terrorist campaign". Brixton Busters 16:20, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I have not misunderstood you. Read what I said again. "Recommended" is just that; a recommendation. The use of the term in direct cites, for example. We're all aware of that. However, the totality of my comment still stands, irrespective of your objections or otherwise - Alison ☺ 16:25, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

The use of terrorist in the context that W Frank is trying to use it on articles on POV, using the term in a direct quote that is referenced is not. I would regard the actions of the British army in Northern Ireland as in Bloody Sunday as terrorist, but it would be POV for me to insert that in that article.--padraig 19:55, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure you can find references to support the idea that the paratrooper's intended to create fear or "terror", their actions were perpetrated for an ideological goal (as opposed to a lone attack), and deliberately targeted or utterly disregarded the safety of non-combatants. Unfortunately for your propaganda campaign, many definitions only include only acts of unlawful violence. In the absence of any international or non-british tribunal ruling that their actions were unlawful you must then fall back on Sarah's position that this is too much an establishment stance which brings us neatly full circle to (was it John's excellent?) truism that WP is inherently biassed (except in PIRA articles it seems) towards an "establishment" viewpoint.

How many hundreds of millions of dollars have been spent on the Saville Inquiry? I doubt that you and I would be able to second guess that enquiry.

However, as I've said before, this is neither the time nor the place for these sorts of discussion. W. Frank talk ✉  20:15, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

floruit

The fl. designation is used when birth and death dates are not known. Its use in User:Gaimhreadhan's page isn't appropriate. Rklawton 14:13, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I understand the useage and I respectfully disagree that it is inappropriate. If you have any queries, please address them to one of these administrators: User:Alison or User:Fred Bauder W. Frank ✉  14:32, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Blocked

I have blocked you for 12 hours for violation of the Three Revert Rule. Revert warring is not the way to resolve an editing disagreement. Spartaz 20:06, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

On which article please? W. Frank talk ✉  20:15, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Gaimhreadhan

Hello W. Frank. Regarding you recent comments about your friend, Gaimhreadhan's terminal illness. I wonder if you would consider, either privately or publically, informing an administrator on the sad event of his passing. There are a few (administrative) things we typically do in on the death of a Wikipedian. Thank you for your consideration, and my sympathies at this most difficult of times. Rockpocket 17:10, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

I think I understand.

Please would you ask a senior administrator or bureaucrat to e-mail me.

(He or she needs to be a real person with a physical address. I need a promise of confidentiality before I send the relevant documents.)

Since I have spoken with Fred Bauder before, he would seem the obvious choice.

I shall also comment on some housekeeping matters on your user page, since I think it inappropriate to comment here at this time.  W. Frank ✉ 08:43, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Condolences

Can I just say W. Frank that I was very sad indeed to hear this news. I always found Gaimhreadhan to be humane, well-motivated, funny and interesting and he will be missed here on Misplaced Pages. He often had a good word to say in bad situations and we were in email contact only a few days ago. You have my deepest condolences. All my best, Mark. MarkThomas 17:21, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, Mark.

Thank you also for the e-mails of sympathy I have received. Unless any of you object, I shall print them out and pass them to his wife when I go to Ireland. Obviously, that may be some time yet.

Please forgive me if I do not reply individually to other messages below and to any of your sympathetic e-mails. They are very welcome and will be a comfort to his family but I am rather busy at this time. Frank.

W. Frank, I'm really sorry to have heard about this. Gaimhreadhan had been pmailing me up until two days ago. I'd owed him a long email as there was lots unsaid yet. Pmailing you now .... - Alison ☺ 21:50, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Just heard the.. well.. not news, but he's in my prayers. :( SirFozzie 08:11, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

• RIP a chara.--Vintagekits 08:47, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

My condolences, and I drank a toast to him tonight using the excellent Irish whiskey he so kindly gave me.-gadfium 09:08, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

RIP Gaimhreadhan Ill say a prayer.--BigDunc 11:15, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Slán, a chara, RIP. --Domer48 11:25, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

RIP Gaimhreadhan. I'd only known him from this site and, latterly, by email, but his wit and generosity of spirit were plain to see. Slán leat, a chara. Bastun 22:12, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

RIP, my condolences to his family and friends.--padraig 22:44, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

My sympathy to his family and friends. Based on his zestful participation up to the last hours of his short life, (which included a fulsome welcome back to me from the holidays just 3 days ago) - he was a man of great humour and great courage. Sarah777 23:29, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Пусть земля тебе будет пухом. Соглашусь с Сарой. (Let the ground be a soft for you. I agree with Sarah. I will be active till all the days in my life as you were.) Alexandre Koriakine 23:38, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Que les vaya bien a el y a su familia y amigos en este tiempo dificil, SqueakBox 00:11, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Please accept my condolences. My interactions with Gaimhreadhan, though brief, were always insightful and warm. His sincere attempts at bettering our community will be sadly missed. Rockpocket 01:22, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

All the comrades e'er he had, they're sorry for his going away. Rest in peace.--Cúchullain /c 08:11, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I was asked to do an article on another subject, which led me to many of the articles to which Gaimhreadhan contributed. He argued his case passionately, well and with humor. The world is poorer for his passing. Requiescat in pace. Anameofmyveryown 09:06, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

May your kind spirit long prevail amongst us. Slán agus gura maith agat. Osioni 12:00, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

I believe we have lost a great Misplaced Pages. An honest man who was funny, intelligent and wise - who always expected the best of others. It is very sad. Kittybrewster (talk) 21:33, 13 August 2007 (UTC)