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Please read this Hi, and welcome. Take a deep breath and relax your eyebrows. If you are about ready to explode it is suggested that you stop for a minute and relax, because that indeed may happen after sifting through these heated debates. This is a controversial topic, and always has been.

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Please do not edit archived pages. If you want to react to a statement made in a archived discussion, please make a new header on THIS page. -- Mgm| 09:20, Feb 23, 2005 (UTC) Archives: Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3 Archive 4 Archive 5 Archive 6 Archive 7 Archive 8 Archive 9 Archive 10 Archive 11 Archive 12 Archive 13 Archive 14 Archive 15 Archive 16 Resources Fadix Analysis

Genocide photo of children

the source ("Wallstein Verlag") tells that it has no date. So it can taken from any other period. It's not verifiable. And if Wegner did take this photo, he would surely know when he took the photo's. And why is this photo unknown to ANI (see:http://www.armenian-genocide.org/photo_wegner.html)
These are all signs wikipedia is using a fake-photo.
If wikipedia is serious, it doesn't accept photo's with such dubious matters (unknown date). +when I wrote this, I read below in screen: Encyclopedic content must be verifiable.... So wikipedia tells this about verifiability, and then uses photo's with dubious matters.Chonanh 13:31, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

references to concentration camps

I want to verify this matter:
Process and camps of deportation
Others are said to have been used only as temporary mass burial zones—such as Radjo, Katma, and Azaz—that were closed in Fall 1915. Some authors also maintain that the camps Lale, Tefridje, Dipsi, Del-El, and Ra's al-'Ain were built specifically for those who had a life expectancy of a few days.

• ^ a b c d e (French) Kotek, Joël and Pierre Rigoulot. Le Siècle des camps: Détention, concentration, extermination: cent ans de mal radica. JC Lattes, 2000 ISBN 2-7096-1884-2

----- On which pages we can find this about:

• It is believed that twenty-five major concentration camps existed under the command of Şükrü Kaya, one of the right hands of Talat Pasha.
• As with Jewish kapos in the concentration camps, the majority of the guards inside the camps were Armenians.

(This book has 805 pages.) Without pages mentioned this nazi-connection can not be verified.Chonanh 01:31, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

There is no evidence in this book on the existence of camps it is purely fiction. It states they existed stating the commanders there is tracable reference.

Unsupported claim!

There is a reference added with ] to the sentence "what led to the destruction of the Ottoman Armenian community was founded by the lttihad ve Terraki". I would like the user User:Fedayee give the whole paragraf from where the refernce is aquired. Also User:Fedayee has to prove that this sentence is not a secondary citation or the authors own perception. Any citation that is not based on primary sources can not be used. --OttomanReference 19:48, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

What kind of claim is this? An article based on only primary sources is called original research, you do prefer writting original research, but there is no place for that here. Fedayee contribution is nothing that special, and as you are aware of, I have already posted from the Ottoman Gazette the conclusions of the trials, and it included the role of the special organization. A role, which I have provided an ample of primary and secondary source in the talk page. I hope you won't start again. Fad (ix) 23:47, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Well the reference I added details how the Committee of Union and Progress came to power in Turkey. It doesn't exactly quote the sentence. Besides, isn't it common knowledge that the members of that party were the perpetrators of the Armenian Genocide? Pretty lame to ask for a reference for such a sentence IMO. I'll try to find one that actually says Talaat and his clique committed the destruction of the Armenian population in the Ottoman Empire Mr. Lawyer. - Fedayee 20:04, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

" User:Fedayee: It doesn't exactly quote the sentence." It is not a good policy do add a quote that does not even cover the period. I want to say; I admire your efforts to improve the article. Did you not get tired of "unsupported claims." It is possible to find many opposing sources on whole section "Planned attacks on deportees by the CUP". The citation (collection in this case) has to prove "without any suspicion" of the responsibilities. A citation of “I belive so” is really not a citation. There is a difference between accusation and establishmet of a crime. Thanks. --OttomanReference 20:13, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure if I follow what you are saying but i'll remove that citation I added assuming that you want something that quotes it exactly. But is it not clear enough that the Three pashas were responsible for the AG? - Fedayee 20:41, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Could any one imagine any objection if a claim was made in a Holocaust article that the Nazis (and even specifically which ones) were responsible for the Holocaust? Why should it be any different here? There is more then sufficient evidence in all the scholarly literature and from first hand accounts to establish the rol eof both the CUP (Central Commitee, Party Secretaries, other operatives throughout the organizations) and as well the Special Organization (and specifically its proinciples - Shakir and Nazim and a host of others) in planning and carrying out the Armenian Genocide. Any objection to such being stated is GENOCIDE DENIAL and can be characterized as a strawman argument at best. This is denial by useless and distracting (and unsupportable) nitpicking and there is no place for such here. --THOTH 14:59, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Come on, we are talking here about a planned ethnic and religious cleansing, with German diplomatic accounts. If we replace Armenians with Bosnians or Hutu's and Turkey or Anatolia with the Serbian controlled part of Bosnia-Hercegovina or Rwanda, nobody would even consider naming it otherwise. Ethnic/religious cleansing equals genocide. How else can the Turkish government justify killing women, children and the elderly all over Anatolia, eventhough only in the eastern provinces some Armenians ended up standing on the Russian side of the fights, but not for ethnic cleansing? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 145.97.198.167 (talk) 14:24, 14 April 2007 (UTC).

Govermantal site for so-called genocide

http://www.tsk.mil.tr/eng/uluslararasi/armenianissue.htm Did anyone read it? Could we put link to this page. This is offical page. where are the other links ???? They all removed. This is the proof that Armenians are doing propaganda here!!!

Are you serious? This is just another proof of how the Turkish gouvernement tries to deny the genocide ever happened. I didn't even had to read a whole page to see that this is just incredible Turkish propaganda, and that most parts don't make sense. You are right about placing in the article though. I think it should be placed in the part about the position of the Turkish gouvernement.High King of the Noldor 13:28, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

No we cannot that site is straight from Turkeys government what the hell do you expect. Nareklm 07:47, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

yes under position of Turkish goverment lets put it...

Here is a quote from the linked article that supposedly "disproves" the Armenian Genocide - "The so-called Armenian genocide is a totally made-up, unreal and unfounded scenario of imagination based on enmity towards Turks and lacking any valid instruments, proofs or any legal basis." Yeah - no proofs, entirely made up - imagined just to get at the Turks - of course - how is it that we have all been fooled for so long? --THOTH 20:04, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Part of discussion moved to Talk:Armenian Genocide/Arguments

Could you also take a look at to the Misplaced Pages's own articles before making a decision what happened during World War I, as far as Armenian-Turkish relations concerned.

Armenian battalions, French-Armenian Agreement (1916), French Armenian Legion, Armenian volunteer units, Battle of Bitlis and Partitioning of the Ottoman Empire TIASB 10:51, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

A simple question, what has happened and Ottomans decided to issue the famous Tehcir Law "Provisional Law of Relocations" on May 1915 for her Armenian citizens after living together quite a long time in peace? Should we start studying the reason "why" among TIASB's above given links for wikipedia articles or anyone will clarify the subject for us to save time. One more link worth review Van Resistance - mind the dates! Sey01 17:44, 15 February 2007 (GMT)

The referenced artcles above are all entirely un-schoalraly and unworthy of wikipedia and entirely worthless as references here. I do agree however that a better discussion of the reasons why the Armenian genocide was undertaken by the CUP/Ottoman Empire is in order. --THOTH 14:56, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

That all depends on the definition of the word genocide. Now genocide itself means " the deliberate killing of a large group of people". That is true, by the way, and it is impossible to deny that millions of Armenian Turks were killed by The Ottoman Turks, and whether the purpose to this act was based on racism or not, it is therefore undeniably true that it was an act of genocide. Again, first consider what the word genocide means to you. Odst 01:59, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

So what about your source. I also think armenian source are full of imagination. Please put this govermantal page into the artical.

First, please sign all of your posts. Second, what you think of the 'Armenian' (by which I assume you mean American and German) sources and statistics is irrelevant, they are acceptable by wikipedia standards.The Myotis 19:25, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Academic views on the issue

Why is Pamuk included in there? He is a novelist not a historian. The section should be better titled "views by some Turks" as it is and seems to be written to the only highlight Turks who have one way or the other talked about the events in a way more symphatetic to the Armenian position. I suggest that we take both Pamuk and Dink out - neither of them are historians therefore they are not "academicians"; it conflicts with the section title. It is primarily stuff like this that makes the article look bad and constantly attract edit-wars.

On a similar note, please do not rate this article higher than B for any project. We went over this two months ago. If it is not even GA it doesn't make sense that it is rated as A, now does it? It just looks childish and like a pissing contest really :) The same logic and standard applies to all the articles in Misplaced Pages therefore there is no need to get offended or anything - I would say the same for all of them. Baristarim 23:40, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

You're absolutely right, this whole article should be deleted for the propaganda it represents. It's like "Hmmm, how can we make an article to make Turks look like Nazis WITHOUT ANY PROOF". Sad sad world we live in where we are arguing over a 91+ year old event when the Armenian Genocide has no supporting proof. Arsenic99 01:42, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Millet system in "the Status of Ottoman Armenians" sub-article

The sentence goes like this: "Under the millet system of Ottoman law, Armenians as dhimmis or recognized non-Muslims (along with Greeks, Jews and other ethnic and religious groups) were subject to laws that effectively designated them as second-class citizens, with fewer legal rights than Muslims." It is actually a biased sentence and the biased part is the "designated them as second-class citizens, with fewer legal rights than Muslims". This claim can be disproved by reading the Misplaced Pages article Millet (Ottoman Empire), or attempting a little research on the Internet. As the Wiki article suggests: "The millet concept has a similarity to autonomous territories that has long been the European norm for dealing with minority groups." And it does not say anything about making other "millets" second-class citizens. In fact, "Aegean Greeks were granted wide commercial rights and also developed a fleet that quickly became the Empire's maritime weapon. In fact, some Greek citizens prospered to such a degree that they eventually opposed the Greek War of Independence of 1821–1831, afraid to lose their privileged position in the imperial capital." Well, the article is not high-quality and has little information about the Armenians. But, again, if you write something, you have to have proof (correct proof) to say that it's correct. Unfortunately, the biased part of the sentence at the beginning of this sub-article does not have proof.. Kalkim 23:45, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, I meant "correct" proof. I'm really suspicious about the reliability of the proof (namely, reference number 5), especially about the part: "their testimony in Islamic courts was inadmissible against Muslims" and "they were heavily taxed". Were they taxed more heavily than Ottoman Muslims? I doubt that. My current knowledge contradicts with these information. I will soon try to provide material that is not just based on one book on an extensive and serious subject to disprove the claim that Armenians were treated as second-class subjects. And I want to add that the reference is a book whose subject is Armenian Genocide. It's really questionable how objective this book can describe the millet system or its effects in the 19th century, the beginning of the 20th century or before.

Kalkim 14:23, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you that the wordings are POV. A member has made changes, I asked him to discuss them in the talkpage, which he did, and for a reason he didn't finally edited to his proposed change after, even thought I told him I agree with his change. Dig in the talk page if you could find the change he proposed. Regards. Fad (ix) 17:09, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

BTW, about the taxation, this is actually true though, Armenians were those who were taxed most. Minorities had to pay the military tax, but many other taxes were imposed to them contrary to other minorities, but many Assyrian communities in the East were subjected to the same policies though. Fad (ix) 17:12, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Fadix, I could not find the discussion of the particular member about the millet issue in this talk page or the other: Talk:Armenian Genocide/Arguments.. Can you be more specific about where I can find it? And the modified sentence stands as "They had separate legal courts, however disputes involving a Muslim fell under the sharia-based laws. Armenians were exempt from serving in the military (and instead forced to pay an exemption tax, the jizya); their testimony in Islamic courts was inadmissible against Muslims; they were not allowed to bear arms, they were heavily taxed, and they were treated overall as second-class subjects." It's still not in NPOV. Although this information has a reference, the reference is a book about the Armenian Genocide, whose objectivity is questionable about the Millet (Ottoman Empire) issue since it's a broad subject. Btw, I'm not sure about the taxation issue. I do not know if the Armenians were those who were taxed the most.However, you may be right and I will to try to check if this particular info is true or not from other sources. Kalkim 13:51, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Hi, sorry for the late reply. This is the proposition for change in question: http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Armenian_Genocide/Archive_15#Proposals_for_changes Read it, and tell me what you think of. Also, might I suggest you Akçam most recent work. It is pretty much complete and includes the taxation stuff. Regards. Fad (ix) 18:05, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Didn't the tanzimat essentially make the Ottoman state secular? The jizya was abolished and many social disabilities against religious minorities were removed. Also at the time of the Armenian genocide, the Young Turks were in power, who were secular humanists. I doubt Islam played a big role in the genocide. 71.102.188.162 09:47, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Why speculate (falsely) when there is plently of scholarly/archival material that covers this.--THOTH 20:56, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Please check http://www.sephardicstudies.org/aa3.html, this page is also given as a reference in The Forty Days of Musa Dagh. This article reflects only one point of view, thus I added a POV tag. --C6H12O6 10:06, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I am very very sorry for my very very late response... Fad, thanks for the link. I read the change proposal. It is well written, and mostly non-biased by FrancescoMazzucotelli. Nevertheless, I have to propose a few more changes to it: current version: "Armenians were barred... they were not allowed to bear weapons." (in the first paragraph) my version: The current version sounds like it's an ethnic thing for the Armenians to be banned from the military. Instead of "Armenians", we should call it "Armenian Millet (Ottoman Empire)", i.e. "Ermeni Milleti, because their bar from the military is not an ethnic matter. Except the Muslim millet, all millets were banned from the military (also there was the devşirme). Also, there is not a single Armenian millet in the Ottoman Empire. There are more than one. Thus, my version of the first paragraph is as follows: "In principle, Armenian millets, like Greeks, Jews, and other Christian communities (millets) across the Middle East were originally subject to a corpus of laws and regulations which gave them a different legal status within the Empire than their Muslim counterparts. Armenian millets were barred from serving in the military, and paid jizya because of that. Their courts were separate from the Muslim millet. However, when there was a dispute between a Muslim and an Armenian, Islamic court was responsible to solve this dispute and their testimony was inadmissible against Muslims." I do not know about the bearing of weapons issue. In the third paragraph, there is the sentence "In 1856, the Hatt-ı Hümayun promised equality for all Ottoman citizens irrespective of their ethnicity and confession...". As I explained above, ethnicity is not an issue in the Ottoman Empire. Instead, there are millets based on the religious sect of a society. Thus, ethnicity should be removed or replaced by millet. Also in the third paragraph, there is another sentence beginning with "The reformist period peaked with the Constitution...which established freedom of belief and equality...". Freedom of belief was present in the Ottoman Empire. All people, living in the Empire, were free to believe in their own religious sects. Therefore, freedom of belief must be removed from the sentence. One last thing to do is to place till 1908 to the end of the sentence (in the fourth paragraph): "This constitution, however, was...over the Empire.". My references for my proposal for changes are especially İlber Ortaylı's two books (which are in Turkish): "The Last Empire: Ottoman Empire, İstanbul, Timaş Press, 2006", and "The Ottoman Peace, İstanbul, Timaş Press, 2007". Except for these above, the proposal is good. I did not have a chance to look at Akçam's recent work. I have nevertheless read some of his works. I strongly suggest you not to base your knowledge only on Akçam's works. You should also read İlber Ortaylı, Halil İnalcık, and Donald Quataert. They are the true masters of Ottoman History. Also, there are some incorrect data in the Wiki article Millet (Ottoman Empire). Also, the article is incomplete. I'll try to improve it ASAP. This time, it won't take too long:)). --Kalkim 10:35, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Since when does Misplaced Pages cite subjective commentary?

I'm not bothered by the content of the article as long as it is based on something that can be considered evidence. And as far as I know, this doesn't include opinion, regardless of the occupation of the person it belongs to. I could easily find an ethnographer or a historian who believes the Holocaust never happened, but that doesn't exactly make it true, now does it? JaneDOA 15:33, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I did not think it was being used as evidence (as in an eyewitness account) as much at is an attempt to summarize the generally held view of western society at that time period. Considering how hard it would be to find specific statistics on discrimination from that day and age, I think it is appropriate. Even today it is hard to prove that a certain group is being persecuted. However, if you believe this directly violates Misplaced Pages policy, it can be moved, removed or replaced.The Myotis 03:31, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't argue if it had at least some factual value, but it seems more like a narrative on William Ramsay's personal feelings about the conditions of the minorities - very touching, but useless in an encyclopedia article. He does have some claims, such as "The Armenians (and the Greeks) were dogs and pigs...to be spat upon, if their shadow darkened a Turk, to be outraged, to be the mats on which he wiped the mud from his feet.", but however accurate they might be, the sentence is too biased to be in Misplaced Pages, let alone the fact that it isn't based on anything at all as far as I can tell. So it does violate both the neutrality and the reliability policies. I suggest removal. JaneDOA 06:54, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Jane British ethnographer William Ramsay is a very notable scholar, he even has his own Encyclopedia Britanica entry. This comment is based on the fact that he travelled in turkey for twelve years (in his job as an ethnographer) seeing how the armenians and greeks were treated. But as long as we make clear its his view its is acceptable to use it here. I'm quite sure his discription of the deep south at the same time would be similar, unfortunately this is probably the best source of the level of persicution in turkey at the time. Hypnosadist 20:38, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't see why it should be quoted, what does it bring to the article? A footnote is enough, quoting that much is unecessary. Fad (ix) 18:42, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Holy Mountains

The song Holy Mountains isn't so much about the Genocide but more about the Turks building Mititary establishments on a mountain they consider to be Holy. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 164.58.224.236 (talk) 19:00, 2 March 2007 (UTC).

SOAD guitarist/songwriter Daron Malakian's own words: DM: "The song (Holy Mountains) is about Masis (the Armenian homeland) and Ararat (a mountain in eastern Turkey considered to be the landing point of Noah’s Ark). If you saw the mountains on TV they would be described as mountains in Turkey, and that’s always a knife in an Armenian’s heart because those are Armenian mountains, not Turkish mountains. They were stolen from us. So that song, ‘Holy Mountains,’ is about those mountains and how they were stolen from us. , my little cousin’s name is Masis" If you listen to the lyrics you will understand it is about how sacred Armenian lands were taken from them through bloodshed - so yes of course it is about the Genocide which was the final act in the historical process of the Turks depriving Armenians of their lands (in addition to slaughtering the better part of the Anatolian Armenian population). --THOTH 04:13, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Turkish Politician Dogu Perincek found guilty in Switzerland of racial discrimination for denying Armenian Genocide

This needs to be referenced in the article. http://www.swissinfo.org/eng/top_news/detail/Turkish_politician_fined_over_genocide_denial.html?siteSect=106&sid=7603245&cKey=1173463623000 --THOTH 20:01, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

From the page you gave :"The Armenians say Ottoman Turks slaughtered up to 1.8 million Armenians in a planned genocide between 1915 and 1918. Turkey denies the mass killings were genocide, saying the death toll is inflated.".. it is made-up. This shows how swiss people hates Turks.

Wow check this :"Judge Pierre-Henri Winzap accused Perinçek of being "a racist" and "an arrogant provocateur" who was familiar with Swiss law on historical revisionism.".. Why racist?. We love Armenians. We have many Armenians living in Turkey.. We are just talking about history.. Why he became racist? User:onur_prg

First genocide of 20th century

In the second paragraph, we have the following (part of a) sentence:

" ... believe that it was indeed the first genocide of the 20th century ... "

I want to edit it, and change to "... believe that it was indeed a genocide ..." , unless the sources support it, or unless that sentence is a result of consensus. --deniz 05:02, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, according to Encyclopædia Britannica:

The first significant genocide of the 20th century was directed against the Armenian residents of Asia Minor by the Turkish government. This deliberate slaughter began on April 24, 1915, under the cover of World War I. April 24 is still commemorated by Armenians around the world as Martyrs' Day. The numbers killed are uncertain. The lowest estimate is 800,000 and the highest more than… (from "Major Modern Genocides")

and:

The greatest single disaster in the history of the Armenians came with the outbreak of World War I (1914–18). In 1915 the Young Turk government resolved to deport the whole Armenian population of about 1,750,000 to Syria and Mesopotamia. It regarded the Turkish Armenians—despite pledges of loyalty by many—as a dangerous foreign element bent on conspiring with the pro-Christian tsarist enemy to upset the Ottoman campaign in the east. In what would later be known as the first genocide of the 20th century, hundreds of thousands of Armenians were driven from their homes, massacred, or marched until they died. The death toll of Armenians in Ottoman Turkey has been estimated at between 600,000 and 1,500,000 in the years from 1915 to 1923. (See Researcher's Note: Armenian massacres.) Tens of thousands emigrated to Russia, Lebanon, Syria, France, and the United States, and the western part of the historical homeland of the Armenian people was emptied of Armenians. (from "Armenia")

So, I suppose we could add this as a source to the article. Khoikhoi 07:54, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

It is not fair to say that, the first genocide of the 20th century was the one of the Herrero's. The Armenian genocide is the first modern case, not the first 20th century. It is unfair for the herreros, as it implies their's isen't one. Fad (ix) 22:56, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm very curious to know how Turks who deny the Armenian Genocide feel about that of the Herreros. I mean everyone pretty much agrees that the Herreros started a revolt against German occupation in 1904 and that they killed quite a few Germans. Only after this "provocation" did the Germans drive the Herreros en mass off of their lands and eventually round them up into concentration camps...so 60,000 died...most likely disease and starvation played a factor eh? So was it genocide? Can an order be found from the Kaiser telling his troops - "kill them all!" - somehow I don't think so...yet...well...where are they now? While these events certainly occured in the 20th century and (IMO) are acuratly depicted as the first genocide of the 20th century - in fact I see these vents as a continuation of 19th century colonial efforts at using extreme brutality to supress local insurections. The Germans just happened to do a good job of it - to the extreme detriment of the Herrero. What distinguishes this event from the of the Armenians is that the Armenians who were subject to genocide were actually citizens of the nation who perpetrated the killings. Additionally, though I don't discount the losses or wish to play numbers games - the Armenians lost over 1 million and their ancient civilizaton was devestated - and their losses basically eliminated them as a people from their ancestral lands. I'm not sure what percentage loss the Herrero experienced but I think that some portion of theri population remained and remains living in Nambibia afterward and to this day. Thus, in the terminology of Dr Robert Melson - the Armenians suffered the first total domestic genocide of the 20th century. So in this regard (as well as in regards to the nature of the genocie - colonial - as in 19th century - veruses nationalistic (political) - 20th century) - and the characterization of the genocide as "total" (along with only the Jewish Holocaust in modern history) - one can acuratly claim the Armenian Genocide to be the first true genocide of the 20th century. (though this is admittedly a semantics issue) --THOTH 03:12, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

You never change. All this is irrelevent. Fad (ix) 18:40, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you your highness.--THOTH 21:55, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

You're welcome. Fad (ix) 22:07, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Russian archives..

Check this book : 100 Belgede Ermeni Meselesi The book is new and it gives 100 offical documents which belongs to Russian archives and which proves it was not a genocide. So it means not only ottoman archive but also other countries' archives are supporting us ... I feel sorry for you :) . So you will not again tell me the stories that we changed the ottoman archive, Right?.. Also please don't tell me also that we changed Russian arhive... Also we have documents from Armenian archives.. I will add here later.. --Onur 20:54, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Funny that a book which (supposedly) 'disproves' AG just happens to be written in Turkish. I think that these newly discovered documents would be more believable if they were written in Russian and maybe actually came from Russia. And you don’t expect us to just take your world that it 'disproves’ AG, you haven’t even given us a hint as to what 'evidence' it contains. Oh, and in case you have not heard, documenting a resistance movement does not disprove any western conclusions on the matter.The Myotis 22:21, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

What is Funny? Book has copy of each document in it, if know Russion language, you can read it. Documents shows how Armenians killed Turks. How they got armed and helped to Russia and bra bra... I hope they will translate it.. But even they translate it, Will you read it? So why you are asking me this?.. There are many perfect books in english and no body read it. They say it is propaganda. So why you are asking me about the language of the book.. Will you read it.. If you will read it, I can translate for you :).. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.156.165.158 (talk) 23:13, 21 March 2007 (UTC).

Well, we already know that Armenians within the Czar's territory were drafted into the Russian army, and, the two countries being at war, obviously fought killed Ottoman soldiers (which also included Armenians early in the war), and that would definitely explain it's place in the Russian archives. As the Ottoman's policy of extermination became obvious (1915 onwards), one would expect that any fleeing Armenians who came across Russian troops would certainly help them, so any records from that time period can not be used as "disproof". Basically it is telling us something we already know and know to be irrelevant. And I don't think I would trust the translation of an anonymous editor who will not even sign its own posts with its name.The Myotis 02:12, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I dont think so. because author was very assertive. By the way it is nothing about killed Ottoman soldiers. I am talking about killed civilians. Let me remind you the events: When Russia invaded the Kars, Armenians attacked to Turks (we can say they deleted the Kars ). Then in Mus, Turks heard that Armenians killing their people, and they paniced and attacked to Armenians. In Mus Armenians ascaped to Kars to Russian part. Then Russia attacked to Mus and again mass killing to civilians happened there. Armenians got their revenge there. Ottoman saw that these two race is figthing each other. And in many place ottoman decided to relocation (This protected Armanians' life in many place).. in my prediction, The documents are about that. I haven't read the book but watched the writer at TV.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.233.97.30 (talk • contribs).

I have heard almost claims many before, but have yet to see any irrefutable verification that they happened. Are you telling me this book contains ‘newly discovered’ evidence, or is it just the rehashing of an old story in order to give it more credibility? And I hope that you do not seriously expect me to believe that the deportations were for their own protection. Ottoman soldiers fed the same line to the Armenian civilians they robbed, starved, and marched into the desert.The Myotis 22:55, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Just I want to ask you question? Why turkish historians and Armenians historians don't argue this face to face in a TV show. In America, they would do it but Armenian side refused it. Anyway this is endless argue.. This is govermantal thing :). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.102.49.181 (talk) 21:43, 27 March 2007 (UTC).

You sound like you don't know it has happened before. The pro-Turkish and pro-Armenian sides have done public television debates on the issue before. PBS had a televised debate between the two sides, the recognition side being represented by Taner Akcam and Peter Balakian, the denial side by Justin McCarthy and Omer Turan. The major consensus of the viewing audience was that the recognition side won. Does that answer your question? - The Myotis 22:47, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Why should they discuss it on a tv show, instead of in scientific journals, magazines and other publications? Aecis 22:54, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I am talking about this: MSNBC Aecis, the link is for live vote and It is asking same question. And see 85 % says yes :).. Myotis, I will check your links.... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.102.49.181 (talk) 19:24, 28 March 2007 (UTC).

Or perhaps they should hold a wresling match...best 2 out of 3...--THOTH 23:39, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes I agree, But don't forget we are very good in wrestling, we will beat you definitly :).. Face to face discussions and TV panels, People want these.. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.102.49.181 (talk) 21:47, 29 March 2007 (UTC).

Orhan Pamuk and Hrant Dink

Hi, these two are not academics, one is a novelist, the other a journalist. Imo they should only be given a passing mention perhaps in reference to article 301, not sections of their own. --A.Garnet 12:05, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi, The first reaction of a Turkish National to the genocide topic is a reaction of instinctive defense. That is the way I felt. I would like to explain how I feel now. Hrant Dink was well respected in Turkey, and I respected his unifying ideology. I hope that the Diaspora does not think that all Turks are anti-Hrant or anti-Armenian. He wrote once that the only way an Armenian could cure him/her self from the hatred against Turks is to come and live side by side with Turks. He considered the hatred a "poison" in the blood and that the diaspora thought this to originate from "poisonous Turkish blood". For that phrase he was found guilt by a Turkish court. Not all citizens of Turkey agree with that decision.

Now, my most recent reaction to this topic is this: if I were an Armenian; I would try to suffer less by erasing from my heart the hatred against Turks. This is what the Crimean Tatars should do and the Jews of Germany as well. And most recently the Bosnians of Srebrenica. A heredited culture of vengance and hatred only consumes its keeper. It is like a fire that burns you from within. So I wish very much to all the Armenians who so much deal with the past to look at today, and the future. I wish one day that the border between the two very similar nations is only symbolic. And I wish that emperial wars will not further divide the two neighbors. Thank you. --Devran77 06:48, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh my gosh, I think I discovered an enlightened Turk, could this be? Amjikian 07:29, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

No need for sarcastic remarks (especially the ones bundled with (any amount of) rascism). By the way, is your last name really Amjikian? just wondering deniz 08:46, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

For your information - my "suffering" as an Armenian has nothign to do with hatred against Turks - I don't hate Turks - I don't hate anyone. My "suffering" as an Armenian has everythign to do with a genocide of my people and my family that is ongoing to this day - as denial is the final stage of genocide - and it is a stage that we are in right now. Now if I was a Turk I would be quite ashamed of my country for continuing this genocide, of causing the current generation of Turks to become accomplice to it...and perhaps I would try to do something - to try to suffer less by erasing this shame from my heart - and fully acknowledge the crimes commited against the Armenians by the anscestors that you protect. Likewise I would say (again in your words - as a Turk) that to erase the ignorance of the past and amnesia of your brain that in fact you try to do a better job remembering and acknowledging the past - and attempting to understand why a people who have been victimized by your ancestors - to the point where they were delibertly slaughtered en mass and driven from their ancient homelands - why such a people might currently be suffering and feel hurt - when you - the perpetrator nation - fail to acknowledge the enormity of the crimes commited against this victim people - and instead smugly advise them to forget about it - yeah just forget about of course - as if we can...unfortunatly (?) we haven't been brainwashed as a people to forget about our past - unlike soem other people who revel in their ignorance and suggest such for others - how convenient....--THOTH 16:53, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I do not advise anyone to forget the past. And I do not understand the degree of aggression that you display, nor the sharpness of your words. I do not feel that I am a perpetrator, and neither do I feel brainwashed. I am only proposing solutions to better the lives of the Armenians in Turkey and the Armenians of Armenina today. I feel that Hrant Dink was a very humanist and wise writer and his thoughts and philosophy should be better studied by all Armenians and Turks. I would feel better if you made some remarks about him or his thoughts on your commentary because this is the topic underwhich we are writing. He always stated that trying to corner the Turkish State via international lobbies only worsens the relations here in Asia Minor. It creates further prejudice in the public opinion, and the populist media does not help the situation either. I will not enter the attriton warfare that you may want me enter. All I do is to come out of the trench, bare naked, in order to suggest solutions for the current situation. If you really want to do good for Armenians, go to Armenia, help dress, feed and educate Armenian kids, and better the economy of that country. Instead of rolling your eyes with resentment, focus them on productive projects with practical outcomes. That is better for us and everyone. I suggest a new topic that is "The social and psychological impacts (trauma?) on today's diaspora". Thank you.--Devran77 13:58, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Turks admitting the truth about what Turkish nation did to Armenians is the first step in any reconcilliation. Can you imagine a German preaching to a Jew how he/she should feel about Germans and about the Holocaust? - and oh by the way - stop hating Germans (when most all Germans in this case dismiss the Holocaust as some kind of Jewish propoganda, still blame the Jews for their own misfortune and claim innocence and consider Hitler and his minions as national heros who were only doing their patritic duty to the nation...and so on and so forth). And BTW the topic of this article is not "solutions to better the lives of the Armenians in Turkey and the Armenians in Armenia" it is the Armenian Genocide - so your concern in this regard is out of place here (in addition to otherwise being misguided and misinformed). As for Hrant Dink - yes he was of the opinion that outside efforts to pressure Turkey were not helpful. However, he clearly believed that Turkey and Turks must admit the Armenian Genocide as fact. He felt that the onus was on Turks to come to this realization and express remourse etc without having to be prod to do so. I and other Armenians are all for that - however the reality is that Turkey had 50-60 years after the event where there was little or no pressure from any Armenian Diaspora to admit the truth and I can't seem to recall any statements made on behalf of the nation or educational programs for Turks or what have you that became more accurate and forthcomming concerning these events. In fact it has been just the opposite. What is clear is that pressure is building on Turkey - through efforts of the Armenian Diaspora - for Turkey and Turks to come to terms with their past. Obviously it is already proven that lacking such pressure they will not come around on their own. So in this case Dink was clearly wrong - as much as we can appreciate his sentiments of brotherhood among the Turkish and Armenian peoples. And while some Armenians may hate Turks I think is is innacurate to claim that most do and that "hatred" is putting Turks on the defensive and such. It is also incredibly innacurate to brand Genocide recognition efforts as hatred of Turks or toward Turkey (while the continued denial of the Genocide can clearly be considered a hateful act toward Armenians). The Turkish policies of denial are what is putting Turks and Turkey on the defensive. And until this attitude changes this condition will not change. Turkey and Turks will continue to be - rightly - condemned by the entire world who knows of and understands these events and the travesty of their continued denial. The ball is clearly in Turkey and Turks' court to do what is right, show some maturity as a people, and stop the shameful and hurtful denial of the Armenian Genocide and stop the perpetuation of the genocide by the continued aggressive acts of denial which only makes the Turks of today accomplices to the crimes. So for justice to be served is it incumbent upon the victim of a crime to show mercy on the perpetrator? Or is the onus upon the perpetrator to acknowledge the deeds and seek forgivness?--THOTH 23:52, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Would someone like to address the point i made above? --A.Garnet 17:06, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

You raise a good point. If Hrant Dink gets a section, then why not a sentence or two on ASALA's murder of nearly 50 Turkish diplomats and their families in the name of genocide recognition? Lima6 05:56, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with your opinion on this matter --THOTH 17:11, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

I'd appreciate a reason. --A.Garnet 17:13, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Pamuk recieved the nobel prize for literature - arguably directly in relation to his stance on the Armenian genocide (or at least in regard to freedom of speech - or lack therof - in Turkey in regards to this and related issues). Dink was recently killed by Turkish nationalistic forces directly for his stance regarding Armenian Genocide recognition. He obviously was considered to be a notable voice on this issue and his death is both highly pressworthy and relevant to this issue - (killing because of his outspokeness on this issue...reference above comments by Devran77). Both of these individuals merit the level of treatment they recieve in the article. I find it quite interesting and telling that certain Turks such as yourself might disagree....but the genocide is a mde up propoganda ploy on behalf of Armenians right? yes - let us make it clear where we stand.--THOTH 17:24, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Insults and accusations aside, neither of them are academics. They are relevant in that they have been associated with the media coverage of the events, but they have not provided any notable academic view on the event as section suggests. They should be contextualised into a more approriate section. Perhaps create a "Recent developments" section. --A.Garnet 17:37, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

THOTH, please remember to comment on the content of a point raised here, not on the contributor who raised the point. Aecis 22:36, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, Garnet, i'm surprised that you raise this issue considering that this article is highly biased and chock full of hypocrisy. One can argue that it rivals material produced by the Soviets. lutherian 22:11, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Ignoring the Calvinist's comment, I would like you to take a look at the term academic. An academic is simply a person, typically part of the higher-education community, who has done peer-reviewed research on a topic. A Nobel-prize winner would certainly fit the former category, and debatably the latter. Similar things can probably be said about Dink, he was certainly a well-educated and distinguished person, though I am not certain how much research he was involved in. However, both views on the subject are noteworthy, and I think they deserve inclusion, even if it may be necessary to label them as ‘other notable views’ or move them to a different section.The Myotis 22:37, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

There are many journalists that are good researchers, but they are not academics. Myotis, please take a look at academic yourself. An academic is a person who works as a researcher (and usually teacher) at a university or similar institution in post-secondary (or tertiary) education Not being an academic does not make Hrant Dink's opinion not notable, as he might have researched the subject very well. The bad thing about journalists is that they are not as academically responsible of what they write as academics, historians. Orhan Pamuk is notable as he is a Nobel prize winner, his quotes are notable too, but his quotes, his opinions should not be presented as facts or as something from the research community (which includes academics, researcher journalists and other researchers). Besides, what Orhan Pamuk said was that 30,000 Kurds and 1million Armenians were killed in these lands. Separately these are not far from the general Turkish view, according to which 37,000+ people died in PKK conflict and many of them were Kurdish, also hundreds of thousands of Armenian died but not as much as 1 million (died-killed might be an issue there). deniz 01:44, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

My suggestion is to rename the 9th section, it should be 'the position of Turkish people', create a subsection government's position move what was previously under 9th section there. Move Hrant Dink and Orhan Pamuk subsections under the governments position subsection. Move the first sentence of subsection "10.4 Denial" under section 9 above subsection for government's position. Make 10.4 Denial to a section (might be better to rename it to 'support to the Turkish view in the academic continuity') (delete the now empty 10th section) deniz 01:44, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

"Position of Turkish people" sounds awkward and too generalizing. How do you quantify the "Turkish people"? Do all Turks believe that the genocide did not occur? Of course not; you cannot lump an entire people into a group and claim that the whole of them represent this particular point of view.--MarshallBagramyan 02:09, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Please check my changes, there is no such claim that all Turkish all represent same point of view on this issue deniz 02:32, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Deniz, it is better that you do not add quotes, we have way too much already, and I will be deleting probably most when I start cleaning the article. Also, it is better you leave Garnet handle the article, as the talk page has megs of discussions and you were not there when this happened, for example your recent edit deal with that, which was contested in the page. Fad (ix) 02:53, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Is quote = that excerpt of letter?. We can hide it. Did you guys have a discussion about bringing together all Turkish views under one section? I understand your concern, seeing the same discussions over and over again might be pissing off the old editors, sorry if I did that, that was one of my reasons of refraining from adding/removing anything substantial here and similar articles. I know rearranging stuff can also be a very major edit. My edit was a response to A. Garnet's concerns and the comments after that. I think it solves that problem, though it might be creating other problems. deniz 04:38, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Basically yes, that is one example. Because there is more to that letter, there is Israel Charny questioneers, and the followup. This will lead to placing quotes and counterquotes. Also, the allusion to Turkish position to. This brough many conreoversies in the past, as it would be qualified as generalisation. Fad (ix) 15:36, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I am going to go ahead and make these changes, please feel free to revert any change I made. oops section 10 wasn't empty, it stays though I made rearrangements, moved some text in this section to other sections. I recovered a text that was commented out and moved it to 10th section. Hopefully my suggestions are more clear now deniz 02:32, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

The title sounds too generalizing - again the impression it makes on me and surely will on readers is that this is the view on the entire Turkish people, not the Turkish people. I'll let some of the editors to weigh in their in opinion on it. --MarshallBagramyan 02:59, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I think now I get what you mean. Will it be OK if the title is positions(plural) of Turkish people? The text under that includes several views.deniz 04:38, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Hi Garnet, when I had created the section on Turkish intellectuals, it was not meant to be to divide them and expend on each ones. If we start doing that with each persons position, we could load the article without end, so I basically agree with you. This articles quality has not improved, to the contrary, it is in a pittiful state and is becoming worst as days pass. Probably after the arbitration case on Armenia and Azerbaijan, I will take the moment to work on it, and you are more than welcome, don't bother Thoth, nothing constructive could come from him. You could start working on the Turkish government position, which needs work, actually, there is nothing much which could not be worked on, so pick whatever you want. And don't bother asking my opinion for now(I have no time right now), with the state of the article, you could not make it worst, of course that is, if Thoth or OttomanReference don't screw it. Fad (ix) 00:08, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Fadix - I would like to helpfully suggest to you (to do us all a favor) that if you can't control your mental condition (of having to irrationally lash out against, belittle and personally attack any who do not blindly accept your very specific perspective) that you do your best to just try to stay away from and out of the business of other people.--THOTH 03:53, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

No I won't, you on various occasions admitted that you won't respect NPOV, which is a policy. Don't expect me to get out of your way. Pretty much everyone are tired of your irrelevent comments which have nothing to do with the content of this article. Fad (ix) 22:00, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Toth unfortunately suffers from an acute form of VD (see arguments page) Amjikian 06:24, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I dont think the recent restructure is an improvment. "Views of Turkish people" is too general as Marshall has noted. Imo, one section should note the Turkish government position since it is the official response, another deal with Academic views consisting of those who support and deny including Turkish scholars on both sides and new section should be created for 'Recent Developments' where the controversies surrounding Orhan Pamuk and Hrant Dink's death can be included. --A.Garnet 22:33, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

As the overwhelming position (academic and otherwise) on this matter is acknolwledgement of the Armenian Genocide (as indisputable fact) and acceptance of its basic understood chronology and facts (including perpetrators, methods and motivations for such etc. as well as sources of evidence for this knowledge) - I suggest that your and other attempts here to push the (not widely held/believed) Turkish denialist position are disproportionate to the deserved level of treatment of this position in the article and consist of pushing an unsupported minority position that is not held by the majority of scholars. At best the article should mention that Turkey, Turks and certain academics with various connections and/or dependence on Turkey hold a counter postion and briefly why. However, the article should not just present the denialist views but more importantly the article should present the views of the majority of genocide scholars and hsitorians/academics concerning why the Armenian Genocide is denied by such entities and it should also mention the existance of a Turkish Government funded and very active campaign to push denial...including evidence such as the presence of overwhelmingly Turkish deniers on this talk page and in related internet forums and venues concerning the Armenian Genocide and such). This is the appropriate way to present valid information pertaining ot this subject and this should satisfy the deserved level of detail (regarding the denial of the truth/facts in regard to this issue). The bulk of the article should deal with the known facts of the Armenian Genocide itself - as would be expected in a proper encyclopedic article and not a mouthpeice for Turkish denialist propoganda.--THOTH 03:53, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Garnet has been here long enough to understand how Misplaced Pages works, but some will never understand how things works here. Fad (ix) 22:02, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Are you the Thoth mentioned above? oops deniz_C 04:09, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

The one and only, attached to this talkpage with an umbilical cord. Fad (ix) 22:37, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Is Thoth something related to Armenians? There are at least two users with that username. According to wikipedia, it is an Egyptian deity, you might need to edit that article. deniz_C 22:41, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Concur with Garnet. Someone said above that since Pamuk won a Nobel, he was an academic and thus could be presented as such in this article. That's wrong. He is an academic, but not on history. A chemist is not an academician if a mathemetical proposition is concerned. Neither is Dink for that matter, he was a journalist and was more preoccupied with the modern-day repurcussions, not the subject itself. For someone to be presented as an academician in this article, he must be a historian. Even Einstein cannot be presented as an academic since his "academic credentials" didn't extend to history. That's all. They can get a mention in relation with 301 in a recent developments section or something of the like and it would be much more relevant in fact. I really fail to see what Dink or Pamuk said clarifies on the historical analysis of the events themselves, really. Baristarim 22:44, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

-- no name Barış, please see academic. Man, this is the n time, I get an edit conflict error with small messages, all with you. deniz_C 22:41, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Forgot to sign :) Baristarim 22:44, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Sözde

An anonymous user has added the word "Sözde" to the Turkish name for the Armenian Genocide. I have removed it. Sözde means "supposedly" or "so-called", and adding it to the name violates WP:NPOV. Aecis 19:07, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

In Turkey, we say so-called genocide, It think that is why he put it. Because we heard the real stories from our grandfathers. As you know these events happened 90 years ago. And we have 110 years old mans.. and they live and they tell us what happened.. This so-called genocide is not like the history that happened 1000 year ago.. It is a near past.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.233.97.30 (talk • contribs).

Check this out !

BBC, The World's most prestigous and reputable news channel does not call these events "a genocide" http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6505927.stm, so can anybody explain to me why we have such article on Misplaced Pages? Furthermore, to my opinion Turkish people are not so mean with their words as Armenians when you read through the discussions on this page. Don't you agree? 88.235.97.58 16:10, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Right, because one article calling it "mass killings" instead of genocide means the whole page should be deleted. Not quite --AW 16:21, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually, did you read the article? It says this "Armenians say 1.5 million of their people were killed in a genocide by Ottoman Turks during World War I, either through systematic massacres or through starvation. More than a dozen countries, various international bodies and many Western historians agree that it was genocide. Turkey says there was no genocide. It acknowledges that many Armenians died, but says the figure was below one million." --AW 16:24, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

I recommend that we change the article itself. My POV is What would Armenians think if some other people have created an article named "So Called Armenian Genocide"? My suggestion is to name this article as "Mass Killings of Armenians" and when "Armenian Genocide" searched, it should direct to the first one. Furthermore, I suggest to remove the article named "Denial of the Armenain Genocide". 88.235.97.58 16:42, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Okay, there are so many failings in logic (and Enlish) in the argument that you are making, I honestly don't know where to start. A genocide is a systematic mass killing, and even if that is what the article said, you can't call the BBC the most prestigous news channel (POV) and delete an article purely on what is said in one source. That's biased. You're biased. The reason you're here is very apparant: you want to try to aid in a massive cover up of a genocide on the grounds that you don't want Turkey to look bad. Admit and ask forgiveness. I mean you're wrong. The whole world, even the BBC, says it happened. You're wrong. 24.107.66.62 20:59, 18 April 2007 (UTC) (My account is stopmenow100, I just didn't want to bother logging in).

Protection Policy

'Armenian Genocide' is a controversial topic on which there is no scientific consensus.

"Misplaced Pages:Protection policy" (and "Misplaced Pages:Talk page guidelines") in a way restrict a democratic discussion.

I do not mean that I favor any side of the debate but as far as I am concerned, this article is similar to an article which would claim that God absolutely existed and some certain group or society was rejecting this fact. Presenting a controversial subject as a fact and saying that one of the sides of this two-sided event rejects this fact, do not contribute to the discussion.

Armenians claiming that this is such a fact that it is not debatable or Turks claiming that this is such unreal that it is not debatable are both wrong.

It should be stated in the article that this is not a fact but a claim, one side of the story. And people who are on the other side should be allowed to tell their point of view, rather than just being mentioned in the article as the "rejecting" side or the minority that accepts this.

I believe that many people like myself would prefer to hear different points on a subject rather than being presented with selective information.

Forgive me if I made any mistakes.

Thank you for your consideration.

Memox 17:51, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you Memox, I have been arguing for this for a long time, and I even quite Wiki for a couple of months. It is very good to have a second opinion. I have never tried to change the article itself, but wanted to add some translation from Turkish wiki, which was the Turkish POV. I want to ask again, whether it would be suitable to insert some parts of Turkish POV, with Turkish claims? Caglarkoca 11:18, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Notable and relevant Turkish views can be added to Armenian Genocide#The positions of Turkish people, provided they are referenced. Other relevant views can be added to Armenian Genocide#Academic views on the issue outside Turkey and Armenian Genocide#The position of the international community. Aecis 11:37, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

When the powers that be in Misplaced Pages agree to amend the Holocaust article to state that in fact "it is not a fact but a claim, one side of the story". And when - in your words - they agree to let people who are on the other side to tell their point of view, rather than just being mentioned in the article as the "rejecting" side or the minority that accepts this - then I would say that precedent has been established and that the Armenian Genocide article should follow suit. In the meantine - yes you are mistaken. However, we forgive you. In fact there is no real debate. There is the truth. There is real and accurate depiction of history. And then there is a shameful political agenda that is being pursued by one nation and by brainwashed people of that nation to continue to perpetuate lies and half-truths for the purpose of denying clulpability in the enactment of known, acknowledged and highly witnessed and well documented crimes commited against humanity - in this case against the Armenians of the Ottoman Empire and against its other Christian inhabitants by the majority population of Muslim Turks. Tese essential facts are unassailable even though the deniers use every tact and every approach imaginable to do so. But of course part of this effort is to disrupt processes such as this article - giving the aprearance of "debate" on these basic issues when in fact there is no legitimate debate at all. They think that this helps to cover up the crimes of the past and recognition of them and of discussion and presentation of the details and relevant facts and issues. And it is apparent that these tactics suceed on at least a certain level because here we are discussing this bullsh*t when we would be better served working toward a more accurate true presentation of the history and related issues as opposed to endless debate over whether it is or is not a genocide and debating whether or not we have properly considered and included the "Turkish" position. I think we havfe given more then enough time and attention to this "Turkish" position and it is well past the time to move on to real issues.--THOTH 16:00, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

sources

Should we make a section about the sources, and keep it unarchived, so that editors can have a quick look at that section and be aware of the previous discussions about these sources? We can have something like this:

Book or website || summary (good source or bad source since it does not satisfy , Example: 1) ..., 2) ... (maybe a third one as well, only the main points)

They will be good until proven to be bad. What do you think about this suggestion? I hope it won't cause another wave of hot discussions (which this talk page is apparently prone to), please if we are going to do it, lets just be precise and concise. Such a section would have helped me a lot. deniz_C 06:49, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

By book, I guess you are talking about ressources, I think only books which were consulted to write the actual article should be placed on the main. But I have already in the past created a page, with the ressources. Fad (ix) 14:37, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Where is that page? deniz_C 16:55, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Someone redirected it here. http://en.wikipedia.org/Armenian_Genocide_resources a bad move. Fad (ix) 20:40, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I am planning to undo the redirect and then move the page to AG/resources (subpage), and create a link on the archive box, above the link to your analysis. Should I go for it? deniz_C 02:29, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

It is usually not a good idea to creat subpages, but undoing is definitly a good move, I don't know what happened of the content if it was deleted, you might ask to an administrator so that he/she undo-delete it. I am just trying to make the last arrangements before they ban me. Fad (ix) 03:22, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I think, it was redirected because supposedly it did not deserve its own page. So I think, a subpage would be fine in that case. Now, after moving the old article page will be redirected to this subpage, so anyone typing that will get to the subpage. Take care. deniz_C 15:50, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

A subpage will have no role other than being a subpage of a talkpage, everyone will ignore it, the main was ignored and then redirected, a subpage will make of its content as if innexistant. Any information worth being accessed should have a main. Fad (ix) 16:05, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

To 88.106.61.112

I do not agree with adding that link, while it is true it is the governments official position, it is in Turkish, only Turks will understand it. There was in the past English language sites, what happened with the prior sites? Who removed all the sites there? Fad (ix) 22:23, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Armenian genocide is a wrong usage as editors of this page all do propaganda on here! they wrote about everything bad about Turkey... but i can not see anything about ASALA in the front page! so this page does not reflect the truth! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.32.18.238 (talk • contribs)

To Whom It May Concern

In this article, How come there is no information about Armenian bandits -dead squads- who massaccred innocent Turks? Celaloglan 03:47, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't see anyting concerning Van cats here either...or any discussion of Turkish coffee or Lukum...I imagine we could just make this a thoroughly comprhensive article concerning anything and everything about the Ottoman Empire from the 15th century onwards - but for now this is an article about the Armenian Genocide and as such we should restrict its content to inrormation directly pertaining to the subject --THOTH 16:16, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree. In order to understand the forced deportations of Armenians (Armenian massacre-genocide or whatever you wanna call it), one should look at the underlying reasons and logic behind it (let us be honest, the reasons that have been described in this article are somehow biased-). Only then, we will have a clear picture of what really happened, why it happened and who are the responsible parties. Celaloglan 18:02, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

What is the bias in the reasons for the massacre/genocide, and how do you think it should be dealt with? What information is missing and needs to be added, and can you attribute it to reliable sources, without original research? Aecis 18:32, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

True, the underlying reasons and logic behind it are important. The Turkish scholar Ayla Göl wrote a paper about it titled: "Imaginning the Turkish nation through 'othering' Armenians." (Nations and Nationalism 11 (1), 2005, 121-139), there is also another Turkish scholar, Bora işyar(notr, Bora prefer using the term "elimination" rather than genocide), who wrote a paper which is a good complement (The origins of Turkish Republican citizenship: the birth of race, Nations and Nationalism 11 (3), 2005, 343-360). There is also of course the theories on the nationalisation of economy, which is covered in Avioglu work. There are a couple of other Turkish scholars who wrote on the rational behind the decision. If you mean to say the Turkish government justifications and those scholars who adhere to it, then probably Kamuran Gurun book, which has become a classic, could go in its respectif section(Turkish government), developping the rationals, it contains Enver telegram behind, on the law on the measures taken by the military against those opposing the government implementations during wartime. Fad (ix) 21:26, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

First of all IT is called the Armenian Genocide. Genocide researcher Hilmer Kaiser essentially states that if one is not willing to adopt the proper terminaology one should not even be discussing the subject at all. And if I were you before suggesting that other contributors have been dishonest I would examine oneself and your own beliefs. As for your contention that "Armenian bandits -dead squads- who massaccred innocent Turks" should be considered an underlying reason for (lets let you fill in the blank properly now) I suggest that you read Holocaust survovor and genocide scholar Robert Melson. In his Revolution and Genocide he directly addresses this very issue - what he calls the "provocation thesis" and he thoroughly rejects it as a cause for the Armenian Genocide. Likewise researchers such as Dadrian, Kaiser, and Akcam (and others) independently examine this issue and conclude that the rational given by certain CUP and CUP apologists that claim military necessity or such (which I assume you are claiming here) was false. And after the war the head of the Ottoman Parliment (Rheza? may have the name wrong but I can provide the exact quote of needed) declared essentially that if in fact the Ottoman Government was concerned with Armenian bandits or such it was incumbant upon them to deal with these criminals - but this is clearly not what occured. The CUP targeted the entire Armenian people (for elimination from Anatolia) - and not because of any military necessity or because these populations were revolting out of control (as secret German dispatches clearly prove that this was not the case) but due to a policy decided upon by the CUP Central Commitee - where they then waited for the right circumstances - war - to carry it out. The facts and the scholarly record bares these facts out. I am all for examination and presnetation of the environment in which the Genocide took place and the factors that influenced the decision by the CUP leadership to purseu such things and the willingness of many of the Turkish people to participate in such thigs - but come now - get your facts straight before you make wild (and entirely politically motivated and unproven) accusations.--THOTH 19:03, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Dear Fad(ix)

Thank you for your comments. I would check the Ayla Göl and Bora işyar’s references. About the Avioglu’s work, theories on the nationalisation of the economy during that time period doesnt sound that plausable. While fighting in many frontiers, nationalisation of the economy, is like shooting yourself from the leg. As you mentioned in your reply, Kamuran Gürün’s has the book called ‘The Myth of Innocence Exposed’. Here is a link incase you or anybody else is interested some more related books. http://www.armenianreality.com/armenianbooks/books.htm

Dear User:Aecis,

When I read this article it’s implied that

during the Ottoman times, Armenians were counted as second class citizens, and Turkish people were violent in nature(William Ramsay quote),

For NO given reason, CUP Central Committee passed the Temporary Law of Deportation, giving the Ottoman government and military authorization to deport anyone it "sensed" as a threat to national security.

A special organization – consist of common criminals !- was then founded to carry out the mass murder and deportations of Armenian population.

I have read this article again and again. And I still don’t see any given LOGICAL or TWISTED reason WHY CUP leadership decide to pursue such a thing?

I am scientist. First thing I have learned in my education is being skeptical, asking questions and trying to understand the underlying reasons & logic behind any event.

I think it would be best for now to start with including a paragraph in this article about What would be the underlying reasons of this deportation law. or WHY CUP decided to pursue such a thing.

We can start using the references that Fad(ix) provided in his message as a begining point.

Maybe in the aftermath section we should also mention what happened the CUP leadership committe afterwards.

Celaloglan 04:45, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Why? Why, the same reasons that all genocides have been carried out through modern history. Because they saw the group as an internal enemy. The emerging nationalists in the late Ottoman goverment wanted to solidify Anatolia as the last stronghold of a dissolving empire and secure it as a Turkic homeland. The empire was being invaded from all sides, and the Ottoman leadership was willing to do anything to defend against occupation, even exterminate an ethnic population it thought might side with invaders. Talat's experience with Russian-Armenian soldiers on the eastern front probably had something to do with it, too. Yes, it probably would be ideal to put in a little more about the CUP's motivation, but let us not confuse motivation with justification.

I think this is already mostly covered in the planning paragraph of the Implementaion section. The Myotis 05:42, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Myotis - I (meaning my knowledge obtained from reading a wide variety of source material on this subject) don't entirely agree with you on the reasons/rational for the Armenian Genocide - your explanation could be considered true in part - but the reality is a bit more complex. (And I'm not sure I'm up to providing a full discourse at this point in time but I will at least attempt to introduce some points). And before I do I want to first suggest to Celaloglan to do a bit of research on the CUP program of the "National Economy" which was enacted in 1913 (prior to the war) in an attempt to create (force the creation) of a Muslim Turk merchant class (at the expense of Christians who had come to basically control the majority of commerce in the Empire). To do this they enacted policies where Christian (primarily Greek) businesses were boycotted (and terrorized and worse - up to 500,000 killed!! 1913/14 - oh yes - and more driven out) while contracts and business were steered to Muslim/Turkish owned firms (many of which sprung up upon eviction and take over from former Christian owners). OK - reasons for the Armenian Genocide (in 25 words or less sort of thing). The crumbling/disfunctional Ottoman Empire created an environment where minority groups at the fringes were shaking off Ottoman control and oppression and ousting Turkish overlords and colaborators (Turks and locals who converted to Islam) creating influx of refugees (stressing an already broke system), corruption and failure (to change/adapt) of Ottoman system exacerbated these problems along with loss of foriegn wars/territories, rising nationalism among (all) ethnic groups - and rise of Turkish identity that was based upon Muslim/Turkish tradtional social/power superiority vis a vis other elements (primarily Christian) of the Empire with great resentment for failing fortunes - blame/scapegoating of Christians - whose rising economic & social status was highly resented (& opposed by most Muslims/Turks) and for Empires failures (increasingly expressed along religious/racial lines) and desire to enact "revenge" for losses and humiliations (note - great majority of Turkish nationalists including CUP came from fringe areas of Empire where territory losses occured ). Sultan massacres and repression vs Armenians in late 19th century were crude attempt to forestall rising Armenian economic and social "independence" within Ottoman Empire and to enforce traditional socio-political (Muslim superiority) norms (keep uppity Gavurs in their place!). CUP revolution was culmination of Turkish disatisfaction with failure of Sultanate and of deteriorating conditions in Empire. While initially containing all manner of reform (and even liberal) minded political activists (even Armenian Dashnaks in coalition) - the revolutionary ascendency of the xenophobic exlusionary Pan-Turkic elements (very much like the German Nazis in so many ways...) who concieved of a primarily violent political and economic solution to the nations problems led to both Ottoman involvement in WWI - with the intention of reclaiming "lost" territories (and Empiric granduer) vis a vis Russia - and to the Armenian Genocide. Armenians - first and foremost - but other Christians of the Empire as well - had come to be seen by the CUP as "other" - as non-Turkic non-Muslim elements that conflicted with the Muslim and then increasingly Pan-Turkic identity and aspirations of the CUP (who had become highly radicallized and xenophobic for a variety of reasons). The CUP (and Muslim Turks in general - particularly those former refugees who suffered at the hands of Orthodox Christians) had come to resent Christians in their midsts - come to see them as essentially "foreign" - scapegoated them for the problems of the Empire (CUP was looking for blame for failure to fix problems etc) - they resented the prosperity and social uppityness that the Christains had obtained (partially through capitulations process) and in particular had grown tired of Armenians petitioning for outside help for reforms and such. So the CUP began to concieve of a program to solve the "Armenian Question" and that of the Christian minorities through violence (with an eye as well - very much so - to appropriating the Christian properties and wealth for themselves). Another significant factor in the attitude of desperation of the CUP was the recognized greed of the European powers to carve up the Ottoman Empire which had been in decline for centuries. Through the war - and the abrogation of the capitulations - the CUP hoped to reverse the downward course of the Empire, free it from debt and "solve" the minority problem once and for all (that in their view - and perhaps rightly so - potentially threatened the integrity of the Empire itself). Thus WWI involvement on the side of the Germans and the Genocide. And while the primary/overiding intent of the CUP was to eliminate the Armenians as a political presence in the East where they both posed a block to connection with Turks to the East and where they might ultimatly be able to establish a "nation" state of their own (thus "deportation" and breaking up of tradtional population concentrations - and certainly with death and violence being a major vehical for this -documented through CUP central commitee deliberations even as early as 1910/11) - the ease at which the "problem" could be dealt with through mass slaughter quickly lent itself to become an end in itself. The CUP was composed of very hardened and ultimatly evil men - in the very same ways of the Nazis in Germany in WWII - who likewise were able to de-humanize their conception of their victims and rationalize that what they were doing was for the greater good for the state and the "race". These factors - and the environment leading up to such that allows for ush "otherness" and de-humanization are vital factors to allow for genocidal campaigns. Certainly this glosses over a great deal of specifics and detail - but in effect I think provides a basic explanation that is more or less fully supported by the mainstream scholarly community.--THOTH 06:55, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

To Celaloglan - Well, you could start an article for "Turkish & Kurdish Genocide by Armenians" or "Mass Killing of Turks and Kurds by Armenians"; and describe the events you have mentioned there. This wouldn't be a fork as you are describing events separate from those mentioned on this page. Takhisis 07:45, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes in Madeupfictionepedia. Unfortunatly for you no real scholars advocate what you claim - that there was any "genocide" of Turks or Kurds or "Mass killing" of Turks on the part of Armenians. Not even McCarthy claims this. His claim is that there was "civil war" and "rebellion and revolt" and he and others talk of the presence of Armenians with Russian troops and as 5th column elements behind the Ottoman lines. Problem is boys - well the factual evidence just does not support these claims - and even McCarthy has been forced to admit this. There is quite a bit of difference between the presence of armed Armenian gangs (who were a few among many during the decades prior to WWI) who commited sporadic violence, robberies and massacres of villagers and some effort on the part of "Armenians" to commit genocide against Turks or such. No such proof exists for the latter - it is entirely a false construct. Not even the Nationalist government tried to claim such things at Lusuanne and certainly the Ottomans did not claim such at the paris conference in 1919 nor at any other time - nor do Ottoman military correspondences show such and so on and so forth. And while admitedly Armenians deserted from the ranks of the ottoman Army (as did Kurds in arguably much greater numbers) and they certainly did tend to join up with the russians when able and these Russian troops (with Armenians - mostly Russian Armenians) did commit some wartime atrocities very little of this violence in fact occured prior to the period of the Armenian Genocide where it could have legitimatly been used as justification for it. Even McCarthy has been forced to admit that most of the Armenian violence he is talking about occured 1917 and after and by irregular forces - no Armenian army per se. Likewise very little of substance can be presented that details Armenina 5th column activity behind Turkish lines as it really was a non-factor - it was something made up to justify actions the CUP already planned to take and even the supposed killings of Muslim/Turks by Armenians during this period can often be shown (through Ottoman Army as well as german and other reports) to have been CUP "Special Organization" bands out of control and not Armenians at all (even though CUP officials such as Shakir used instances of such to spread propoganda against Armenians). The claim of mass Armenian revolt can as well be shown to be spurious - consisting instead of a few very isolated instances - most of which (such as Van) were seriously misrepresented by the CUP for anti-Armenian propoganda purposes and in fact many can be shown (by way of eyewitness accounts) to have been the result of direct Turkish provocations and as a result of resistance to massacre/slaughter itself. So in fact what are we left with? Turkish historian hlil Berketay estimates that over this entire period - to include until 1923 - "Armenians" probably killed no more then 10,000 to perhaps 20,000 Muslims/Turks. OK - not an inconsequential figure - but neither can this be called a civil war or a mass killing of Turks such as the 1 million plus Armenians who were deliberatly killed in a systematic manner by direction of the CUP/Ottoman government. These deaths were the result of war and the typical (though still abhorrent) wartime atrocities that did occur - particularly with irregular troops - and much of this was revenge killing on the part of Armenians who had lost everything. The key point is that neither the historical record of corraborated eyewitness accounts nor the greater (non-Turkish) scholarly community supports such charges as genocide by Armenians or mass killings by Armenians against Turks or such. What did occur needs to be properly understood and not just bandied about for what it is not. And the only real contrroversy about these events among the scholarly community proper is when the CUP made its decision to commit genocide - not that it did so - and the degree to which it was decided upon at the get go versus how the policy may have evolved over time. And these Turkish counter claims are universally dismissed as unhistorical propaganda as they run counter to observations and the facts of the day.--THOTH 12:16, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your opinion above Thoth. I think it would be perfectly good article as long as it is properly sourced. I don't think this should be an issue; though needs work and time. Any takers guys? I'm bit too busy in my real life; we are expecting a baby and it is quite hectic now. Takhisis 15:22, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I could only read the start and end of your opinion first. Suggest you break your argument to a few paragraphs - it makes it difficult to read. I read the middle now; good arguments. I believe there is a case for a separate article; we know at the very least some (many?) villages were burnt with their entire population. This would be enough to classify the events as mass killings. Title doesn't matter too much anyway; it could be named Armenians Revolts & Atrocities to Muslim Population even. Takhisis 15:29, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Did you really read (and understand) what I wrote? I really don't think that a seperate article for either Armenian "revolts" or "mass killings" or "Atrocities" can be supported. The "revolts" per se were really quite limited and were directly tied to attempts on the part of Ottoman authorities/officials to masacre and otherwise disenfranchise communities (direct action in commiting genoicde against these communitees). As for "mass killings" and "atrocities" commited by "Armenians" I don't think that 10-20,000 killed (if that) over a period from 1914-1923 could necissarily be considered "mass killings" seen in the context of war of the time and place and considering the inability to clearly attribute these deaths/killings (many/most of which were done in the context of Russian military activity and others by Armenian irregulars) - each of these more appropriatly covered within articles concerning WWI and military actions occuring in the Caucuses in the post WWI period related to the Turkish War of Independence and military actions surrounding the attempts by the fledgling Armenian State (post 1918) to defend itself from Turkish aggression. Thus in no way could I see legitimacy in independent articles called "Armenian revolts" or "Armenian mass killings or atrocities against Turks" each of which can only be correctly dealt with in their proper context. And of course this talk page and article that we are discussing is concerned with the Armenian Genocide and there is much more of relevance to do here to better describe the planning (rational - to include political environment etc in the Empire during/prior to this period), process, enactment (specific documented actions against the Armenians and by who) as well as better description of how it is we know these events to be factual (through documentation of eyewitness testimony). It is these areas where I think more effort needs to be made to make this article more exacting and informative.--THOTH 19:35, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

THOTH, <Personal attack removed> from your insane remarks above it is clear to me that anything that is even remotely moslem past or present in your mind is analogous with evil, that no massacres of moslems by your angelic orthodox christian brotheren ever took place at any time in history and that the massacres of armenians (repeat after me, MASSACRES, NOT GENOCIDE) were worse than what the Nazis did to the Jews (not only is that suggestion of yours totally absurd but more importantly insulting and degrading to the memory of the 6 million Jews that perished). The moronic suggestion that the Armenian massacres are even remotely comparable to the GENOCIDE of the JEWS is absurdity at its extreme, its a classic example of the pure and simple provocation and hatred that you and your kind fester towards Turks and moslems. I know that its hard for you to digest the truth but just pop a blue pill and relax because nothing and I mean nothing that you (especially you) say will ever change the realities regarding this subject. Just because there are a zillion Turk haters out there that claim a genocide occurred does not make it the truth unless you live in North Korea, Iran, Cuba or Venezuela where what ever the guineas feed you is taken at face value. And please, don't bother to respond because I don't have the luxury of wasting time reading your novellas lutherian 12:18, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I have removed a personal attack from the above post. Please comment on the content, not on the contributor. Comment on what THOTH has to say, don't insult THOTH himself. Cows fly kites (Aecis) 12:35, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I am sorry that this legacy of the Turkish people upsets you and many other Turks so - but I cannot go back and change history and believe me I wish that I could. Anyway these are not my ideas but a compolation of scholarly thought/writings on this issue. I don't appreciate the name calling and ad hominum attacks. If you can't take the truth I suggest that you go and think happy thoughts somewhere else. And one last point - regarding the entirely legitimate comparison between the Armenian Genocide and the Holocaust - the fact of only tens of thousands of Armenians left in Anatolia after a few brief years of (heavily eyewitnessed and thus proven) massacre and genocide where there once were 2 million or more is well proof of the genocidal impact of these actions upon the Armenian community in Anatolia at the very equivilent nature to that decimation which occured to the European Jews during WWII. You may not like the reality of this or the shame that it brings to your people - but it is fact and you crying about it and denying it changes it not in the least.--THOTH 12:43, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Abdullah Gül's statement

Denizz (talk · contribs) added the following sentence to the lead of the article.

Turkish foreign minister Abdullah Gül stated that "... but when you call it "genocide," you have to find another terminology for the Jews that were killed in Germany before and during World War II.

I removed this, with the edit summary "Revert, Gul's remark isn't notable enough for the intro. It may be added to the section on the position of Turkey". As outlined in Misplaced Pages:Lead section, the lead of the article "should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article in such a way that it can stand on its own as a concise version of the article." I believe that the remark by Gül is too specific and not relevant enough to be mentioned in the lead. Again per Misplaced Pages:Lead section: "The relative weight given to points in the lead should reflect the relative weight given to each in the remainder of the article. A significant argument not mentioned after the lead should not be mentioned in the lead." I believe that the relative weight of this statement is not enough for the intro, and it wasn't even "mentioned after the lead."
Makalp (talk · contribs) reverted me, with the edit summary "notable as -atleast- like others." I then moved the sentence from the lead of the article to the section Armenian Genocide#The position of the Turkish government, with the edit summary "Abdullah Gül statement moved to "The position of the Turkish government"; too specific for the lead. Per WP:LEAD: "The lead section should briefly summarize the most important points..." "
Denizz then left a message on my user talk page, saying: "I think that quote should stay with the previous sentence clause for NPOV issues. The current place is fine, if that sentence clause is removed. (comparison to Holocaust )" In other words, the statement by Gül was added in response to the previous sentence of the lead section, "The event is also said to be the second-most studied case of genocide, and often draws comparison with the Holocaust." Denizz indicates in the last sentence of his message that he can live with Gül's statement being in the section Armenian Genocide#The position of the Turkish government if the statement that the Armenian Genocide "often draws comparison with the Holocaust" is removed from the lead section.
I would like to request the input of other editors on this matter. Should the phrase about the Holocaust comparison be followed by Gül's response to this? Should the phrase about the Holocaust comparison be removed from the lead? Denizz and I would like to ask each and all responding to this to be as concise as possible, for the sake of intelligibility. I will remove the statement from the article for now. Aecis 23:02, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Adding something to the effect that the Turkish government reject any comparaison with the Holocaust could be relevent, I think Gul is a little to much specific in the intro. Fad (ix) 00:38, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

First of all I have to admit I have no idea what Gul is trying to say - its a bit too obtuse for me (besides we have been over this many times already - Armenian Genocide meets all criteria for being a genocide - as is overwhelmingly supported by scholars and in fact is part of the definition of the word - ie Armenian Genocide was used to describe what was meant by the term by Lemkin - the develper of it). Secondly I rather doubt that we would include a quote by Goering denying the Holoucast to the beginning of that article so Gul certainly doesn't belong here. Third - this isn't missiles in Cuba for missiles Turkey - I don't understand how we can bargain over inclusion of a very relevant and factual statement that "the Armenian Genocide often draws comparison to the Holocaust" with some random gobdlygook statement of opinion made by some irrelevant Turkish government official.--THOTH 02:01, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I think that Gül is trying to say that if the Armenian Genocide is a genocide, the other genocides need to be renamed, because the Armenian Genocide cannot be compared to those. Or something to that extent. Like Fadix, I think that Gül's statement might be a little too specific for the intro, although Turkey's rejection of the comparison might be appropriate. But Abdüllah Gül, the Turkish Foreign Minister, deputy prime minister and former prime minister, is not "some irrelevant Turkish government official." Aecis 09:57, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Is it just me or is the fact that Turkey rejects charges of genocide and comparisons with the Holocaust already promionatly featured in the article - I sure think it is. I think the Turkish rejection is more then sufficiently dealt with in the article - certainly more then it desrrves to be considering the facts and considering what most scholars believe to be the truth. I honestly feel that through intentions to apear "balanced" and to present all sides etc - we are in fact in danger of misrepresenting the denial of this genocide and assisting in advocating the denial itself by giving the apearence of legitimacy to these non historically accurate non-scholarly views and I fear we will be establishing a precident for the presentation of other genocides in Misplaced Pages. We would be doing a better service I think to do a better job presenting Armenian Genocide denial for what it is. --THOTH 12:24, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

If the Turkish rejection of the concept of genocide and of the Holocaust comparison is featured prominently in the article, it should be mentioned in the lead, since the lead "should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article in such a way that it can stand on its own as a concise version of the article." If the Turkish position on the Armenian Genocide is relevant (it is) and is featured prominently (it is), it should be mentioned in the lead. A notable denial of a seemingly undeniable truth is still a notable denial, and should therefore be mentioned. Notability matters, not factual correctness. Verifiability, not truth. Mentioning a notable position does not mean endorsement of that position. Misplaced Pages shouldn't ignore a notable position for the reason that it's factually incorrect, because that is not a criterion for inclusion. We do not "assist in advocating the denial", and we do not "give the apearence of legitimacy" to the denial, by mentioning that some people and at least one country hold these views. I can understand that it may be tempting to inject a personal opinion or a sidenote in response to denial of the genocide, but that would be both original research and pov. Cows fly kites (Aecis) 12:44, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Aecis I understand (and agree with) your position here - that if "notable" it should be mentioned and as much as possible introduced. But it is my contention that the Turkish objections are both mentioned and featured if anything with more emphasis then requirred to meet the letter of this intent and that we are infact moving toward over emphasis if we are not already there.--THOTH 18:47, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I want to adress this supposed point that Gul (and others who deny that the term "genocide" is appropriate) are trying to make here (and the absurdity of such a contention. And for this genocide researcher Hilmar Kaiser has stated it best: "The Armenian genocide is the Ottoman government's answer to the Armenian Question...I use the word `genocide' because it adequately describes the phenomenon. It's the only term we have that describes it. If one day we have a better word, fine. The English, German, and Turkish languages have only one word to describe. That this has a negative consequence on the Turkish government is something I can't change; I can't change history. I'm not prepared to haggle over it. If a Turkish scholar says it too politicized and he or she doesn't want to use the word, then let him/her take a different subject. If you want to be part of this debate, apply proper terminology and if you don't want to do it, you aren't a scholar." Dr. Hilmar Kaiser, in interview with Khatchig Mouradian (24 September 2005) published in Aztag Daily Newspaper--THOTH 22:48, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

First I removed the comparison to Holocaust because we discussing it as well. I want to keep this as short as possible. I will first need to reply this. I don't know how much a German expert of Armenian genocide Hilmar Kaiser is, but claims like 'you aren't a scholar if you do not accept the term genocide' are not very scholarly, are in fact very anti-scholarly. Having the same opinion with a scholar does not make that opinion much better, it might make it notable. Considering the 69 academics, I am not sure about that most Western historians agree on the term, even if one of them says so, as that would be his/her opinion, apparently not a well researched thing. I don't have the book now, I will comment on it later, if I don't forget. One thing is we had to change the referenced material, which I don't like, as it makes me think that that reference is not reliable. I agree with Aecis with most of everything else.

Apparently we have at least two definitions of genocide, first a legal one, by which this will never be a genocide, second a political one, what the parliaments of some countries accept for instance (I am not sure of a scientific one yet). Taking into account what is called and what is not called a genocide (like Congo, native Americans, several aborigine communities, Algeria, etc), I think it is the latter one. This has many implications, one is that a statement of leading politician that is in a position to state a country's opinion is worth a mention. Besides, please check the bibliography section. I have worries about that section as well. For instance, is the Armenian research center the only notable research center, it is way too overrepresented. deniz_C

"first a legal one, by which this will never be a genocide"...perhaphs we need to remind you of the technical definition of genocide. Acording to the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide a genocide is defined as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; and forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

Would you mind pointing out which part, exactly, exempts Armenians from this definition? The Myotis 00:19, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

As far as definitions for "genocide" are concerned I think that there are perhaps two or probably three that might need to be considered. The first, of course, is that of the person who came up with the word in the first place - R Lemkin (which might be referred to as the narrow version), the second would be the verion of the concept as accepted and laid out by the United Nations (the inclusive version - as it seems to cast quite a wide net concerning what might be considered as "genocide") and the third that I recommend is that of scholar Robert Melson as he defines degrees of genocide to include particl and total based upo impact on victim population. As the Armenian Genocide clearly meets all of these criteria - and has consistently been proven by all manner of research and analysis and review (including recent TARC sponsored ICTJ review) to do so I would really hope that deniers like you would be a bit less cavalier and give it up already. Likewise referring to the 69 scholars who signed onto this advertisement taken out by a Turkish Government sponsored denial organization - Genocide scholar Israel Charney has conducted a rather extensive analysis of these individuls and concluded that the vast majority obtained direct Turkish Government funding for their researches, and unlike the 126 Holocaust scholars who signed a petition for recognition of the Armenian Genocide - very few of the academics the Turks came up with could be shown to have anything but a casual (not a scholarly) knowledge of this subject or period of history. There was also some debate as to the actual positions of many of these 69 academics, some who claimed that their name on the list did not in fact represent their views. So again, like much of the Turkish denial, once the fog of it all is cleared away we can see it for what it is - an attempt to divert attention from the real facts. Likewise, one can find very few actual scholarly (peer reviewed and such) works that support the denialist position. Academia has clearly come down on the side of recognition and has done so with overwhelming historical support. The denail is proven to be pure politics and misrepresentation.--THOTH 03:31, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Are you claiming that it will be sometimes accepted by a universal court as a genocide? At least now it isn't, and I don't think it will ever be. deniz_C 01:19, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, I don't believe that any court is "universal", second, I don’t think this particular case has ever been tried, and third, you are ducking the question. What exactly exempts AG from the stated definition is what I would like to know and why you are so certain it will never be accepted? The Myotis 01:41, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

• I think Deniz meant this:

The Armenian "genocide" can only sold by propaganda (like this wiki-article Armenian Genocide, see above under External links). There are no other ways. No one international court will recognize the Armenian "genocide" (1915 was before 1948 when the Genocide Convention was approved in the UN). The Armenian propaganda can only have support from christian parliaments and scientists with unscientific and hidden agenda's like Akcam&Co.Chonanh 03:54, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry Myotis, I missed what you wrote. I agree with one sentence of Chonanh above, it won't be accepted as a genocide by any international court, if for nothing else, b/c the events happened decades before the law passed. Also, the people were punished. One of them was even killed by an Armenian and the guy got away it in a court where those fake (?) telegraphs were used. Turkey, which overtoppled Ottomans, did not gain anything by it (no Swiss golds etc, not the territory either, unless you claim that Armenians would have sided with Russians), eastern borders with Russia are partly a result of the Russian revolution. Eastern boarders with Iran were already fixed centuries ago. deniz_C 05:50, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

It's true that no person or nation can be convicted of genocide, being that the responsible entities are long dead. I suppose we could get a court to rule that the event was genocide, and I don’t know what Iran and Russia's borders have to do with this, we are talking about a definition, not reconciliation. However, I don't think that any court has ruled an event's definition without prosecution, and if they would bother. All I was saying was that it matches the legal definition, and that should be enough for anybody. The Myotis 19:16, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Malcolm Yapp

Note 61, about Malcolm Yapp as one of the Western scholars denying or doubting that the events constituted a genocide, currently reads: "Emeritus Professor Malcom Yapp, Middle Eastern Studies (MES) journal Oct 96, Vol. 32 Issue 4, p 395, 3p." This seems to refer to an article in the Middle Eastern Studies Journal. Does anyone have access to that article? If so, could you add the title of the article to the reference in accordance with Template:Cite journal? Cows fly kites (Aecis) 12:09, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Makalps disruptive tags

Stop adding tags and blindly reverting back without even discussing. You better write a 10 page essay if you intend to back up the addition of those tags. Discuss your grievances on the talk page!-- Ευπάτωρ 16:48, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

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