Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 17:54, 28 August 2007

The project page associated with this discussion page is an official policy on Misplaced Pages. It has wide acceptance among editors and is considered a standard that all users should follow. Before you update the page, make sure that changes you make to this policy really do reflect consensus.

• ]

Archives

Links to other WP articles do not count as references

Which WP policy page specifically states this? I can no longer seem to find it. dr.ef.tymac 18:57, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

It used to be in Misplaced Pages:Citing sources, but was removed in June . I think it needs to be put back, but the article is protected. So now, it's nowhere...Dreadstar † 18:59, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

So far you seem to be right. I'm doing a little more homework to resolve that there was not indeed a legitimate reason for this change -- just letting you know I think we're both on the same page here, I'm just being careful with this, because if it *was* taken out inappropriately, then that's another issue that might have to be dealt with. I don't dispute the basic message, just trying to make sure what's what before we just plop it back in here at WP:V. dr.ef.tymac 19:05, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Hey, no problem. I'm glad you're double-checking me on this very important issue. It's good teamwork. Dreadstar † 19:08, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, one problem is, I seem to remember completely different language (more detailed) that covered this scenario, more than just the one-sentence mention that was mysteriously removed from Misplaced Pages:Citing sources. I'm doing some archive searches right now.

Anyway, the underlying "mystery" may not be resolved immediately so I don't (personally) have any problem with the (re-)addition here, but don't be surprised if I (or someone else) copy-edits or reshuffles it to a different subsection of this policy page. dr.ef.tymac 19:16, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I seem to remember that too, perhaps they condensed it down at some point. Is there a good spot in WP:V for it? I picked what I thought was a good section, sources. It didn't really seem to fit elsewhere. Maybe under 'Questionable sources'? Dreadstar † 19:20, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

It's going to be put back into Misplaced Pages:Citing Sources according to one of the protecting admins. Dreadstar † 19:25, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Ok, good. I'm still in the middle of asking Google to uncover if and where this issue was already addressed, elsewhere, before attempting to "re-invent the wheel". dr.ef.tymac 19:30, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Request for comments

Request for comments: I've not uncovered whether this issue has been dealt with before in WP:V. 1) Has it been? 2) Should this issue be mentioned in WP:V if it is (or will be) already mentioned in WP:CITE? Is this a non-issue? Hopefully more contributors will chime in here, as the point seems to merit clarification. dr.ef.tymac 19:37, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

What is the point of Verifiability if one can not cite WP articles? Misplaced Pages policy is that articles will be well sourced and thus WP articles can self-reference themselves. If this is not assumed, then there is a tautological problem. Either Misplaced Pages trusts in its policies or it does not? If not, is there any point in verifibiality policies? Cheers! Wassupwestcoast 19:57, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, sure, that argument works, if we could assume that every wikipedia article actually fulfilled the various guidelines and policies. Plus they're rather subject to change, and further it's not good to cite one part of a large work in another; that's what "see also" is for. SamBC(talk) 20:07, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

We need to link to verifiable, reliable external sources as references for every article, this allows the reader to quickly and easily find and read the reference for themselves. I would not want to link one Misplaced Pages article to another, and possibly a whole chain of articles, so the reader would then have to play detective, and spend extra time and effort to try and verify something that should be immediately available in the article they're reading. This is not even taking into consideration the appropriateness of sources for the individual article's subjects and other related issues. Can of worms. Cite external sources for references. Wikilink to internal articles per WP:MOS-L, but not as source references for the purposes of verifiability or citing sources. Dreadstar † 20:17, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

(ed conf) Exactly. This understanding is well established, and if it needs to be stated in policy for those that do not see it as obvious, let's add it. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:32, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

WP:RS used to talk about Not using Misplaced Pages as a source... the language is currently at WP:ATT/FAQ (see the section entitled: Are wikis reliable sources?). However, that does not discuss the difference between a source and an internal link. I am not sure that was ever spelled out. Blueboar 20:32, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Jossi, let's add it to policy so it is very clear to everyone. Dreadstar † 20:50, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Is this policy the best place to add it? How deeply do we want this policy to go into proscribing sources for reliability? Currently we fail to even define reliable here.--BirgitteSB 20:59, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Verifiability and reliability are two different things (with some overlapping areas), and while both need to apply to sources, I'm not sure mixing them together would be the best course. I think either or both WP:V and WP:RS should contain the prohibition against using Misplaced Pages articles as a source for other Misplaced Pages articles. Perhaps a short definition in the policy and a longer explanation in the guideline? I can easily see it as both a V and RS problem. Dreadstar † 21:04, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree that reliability is an issue that overlaps this policy. I am really just appealing to everyone to think of the bigger picture before we start tacking on prohibitions. Where is the the best place to discuss why Misplaced Pages does not qualify as a reliable source? If the answer is here, than I have no objection. But please think it over.--BirgitteSB 21:18, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

This is Misplaced Pages's verifiability policy. Misplaced Pages articles aren't intrinsically reliable and their content cannot be relied upon from second to second, so the absolute prohibition on the use of such articles goes to the heart of this policy. --Tony Sidaway 21:22, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Then why not prohibit all wikis here instead of just Misplaced Pages, as the argument for is identical. And them why not blogs, because people are always trying to use them too (they keep popping up on Google and have the best material). But I have no real objection to sentiment. It will likely just balloon with further prohibitions until someone decides to clean it up and move all the examples to another page. Which someone else will probably at an even later date dismantle when they find the two pages diverging from each other. But go ahead I have popcorn. --BirgitteSB 21:30, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

There are certain limited situations where other wikis and blogs can be used in articles (notably in articles about themselves), but Misplaced Pages articles should never be used. A subtle difference, but perhaps one that deliniates between inclusion in a strict policy or in a more liberal guideline. Where would you recommend placing it, Birgitte?Dreadstar † 22:05, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

We should put it in the W's of the list of unreliable sources we keep handy. Seriously though if it really necessary we spell this out let us do back at Misplaced Pages:Citing sources again or somewhere like Misplaced Pages:Researching with Misplaced Pages. There is a reason we don’t keep a list of reliable source around. And if editors really cannot be made to understand Misplaced Pages is unreliable without having say so on a top-tier policy page, how can we expect them to evaluate the reliability of any source?--BirgitteSB 15:13, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I totally agree that it should be spelled out in Misplaced Pages:Citing sources, there's never been an argument from me that it shouldn't (I'm the one who pointed out that it's missing from there in the first place). But I also think a mention of it can be included in WP:V as well - it's a significant prohibition that I think rises to Policy level. It's so easy for editors to just think they can link to another Misplaced Pages article as a verifiable source. Since Misplaced Pages is so readily available and easy to link to, it shoud be a more visible prohibition than even other remote wikis. Frankly, as long as it's mentioned somewhere in the source policies and guidelines, I'm satisfied. Whether it's in a WP:RS policy or guideline or even both, I do think it's necessary. Dreadstar † 15:35, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Obviously we don't (and shouldn't) use internal references as sources. Instances of such usage are contrary to Misplaced Pages policy. Misplaced Pages is absolutely not itself a reliable source. --Tony Sidaway 21:08, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Ok Tony Sidaway, you've registered your views quite effectively, please note however that even "Questionable sources" acknowledges self-references are appropriate when placed in articles about themselves. Since it is not obvious that WP cannot be used as a reference in articles about itself, please give this discussion more time to develop before adding such emphatic language to WP:V. This is a huge can of worms that needs careful deliberation.

This is *especially* true since all (or most) of us emphatically agree that WP does not count as a "reference" ... this is a very common and basic understanding within WP. The fact that this is almost too obvious to mention does not, however, obviate our need to be precise. Sound reasonable? dr.ef.tymac 21:38, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Why do you emphatically agree that WP does not count as a "reference"? I think a serious point is being missed here. If we cannot consider Misplaced Pages reliable in itself, then we cannot consider Misplaced Pages reliable outside of itself: ergo, Misplaced Pages is a pointless exercise. In the Real World, the New York Times, for example, references itself. I think the assume good faith policy must apply. Every article must be assumed to meet Misplaced Pages policy guidelines even though Misplaced Pages makes no guarantee of validity. If we do not assume that editors work in good faith and source their articles, then debating reliability and verifiability policy is moot. On a side note, if we do not consider self-referencing valid then what of wiki-links? Surely, wiki-links are only useful if they link to useful – and hence – reliable articles. Anyway, this debate has a history - see Usefulness as a reference - which is quite pessimistic. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast 23:06, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, I did correct myself mid-sentence, yes, not "all" agree. The view you've expressed does have a certain "theoretic consistency" to it, the problem is, not many people seem to advocate it. But yes, all legitimate viewpoints should get consideration, hence this discussion. Nevertheless, my guess is even you would admit that some "pessimism" is justifiable. dr.ef.tymac 00:04, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

It strikes me that reliable sources are essentialy a way of ensuring verifiability. Thus, guidance as to what constitutes a reliable source, and thus something that provides reliability, should primarily be in WP:RS. Of course, I'm not sure that this matches very well with what's in the pages now, but what the hey …

This is already covered by the Manual of Style in the "Avoid self-references" page. The question may remain whether it should simply remain a guideline (as part of the style guide) or be considered policy and incorporated here. Vassyana 23:30, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

As a style guideline it is OK, but as policy it deprecates Misplaced Pages. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast 00:00, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

The fundamental reason I accept that we should not use other Misplaced Pages articles as references is the "telephone game" problem. Each article takes facts from reliable sources and paraphrases them to make an encyclopedia article. Making "second-level" articles by paraphrasing again from those, and then "third-level" articles by paraphrasing from those second-level articles, and so on, will only lead to errors being magnified. By insisting that each article can stand on its own as a first-level article, we keep those paraphrasing errors to a minimum. — Carl (CBM · talk) 00:05, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Agreed that other Misplaced Pages articles are never almost never an appropriate source. In addition to the "telephone game" problem, which affects the writing of articles, there's the question of tracing factual claims to their origin as a reader or editor of new articles. It's never safe to simply rely on what an article says. To have any certainty you have to follow the references to the outside secondary sources, and if you're really serious from there to the primary sources. That's great, and fast, when everything is hyperlinked in an orderly way. But if you had to follow internal links all over Misplaced Pages to hunt for the place where someone initially consulted an outside source, it would be very hard. That's no shortcoming of Misplaced Pages. It's inherent to any reference work. A secondary benefit of disallowing Misplaced Pages as a source is that it encourages people not to repeat, excerpt, and quote parts of articles inside other articles. For example, in an article about the Beatles you don't go into a long biographical sketch of Paul McCartney. That redundancy creates all kinds of forking and version control problems, among other things. I find that refusing to let people cite Misplaced Pages cuts down a lot on this redundancy because people find it's best to include a simple link to the main article rather than to try to report in one article what Misplaced Pages says in another. I don't have any opinion about what belongs in WP:V versus WP:RS. They're two sides of a coin as far as I know. Wikidemo 00:18, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Side note: It is interesting that Criticism of Misplaced Pages has (unless I miscounted) over 27 references that point back to Misplaced Pages. Assuming, for the sake of argument, that it's a decent article, this tends to suggest that the strict prohibition view is not entirely legit, at least not when WP is the subject of the article. dr.ef.tymac 00:28, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

ISTR that there's a note saying that questionable sources are often valid when the article is about the source itself. SamBC(talk) 00:31, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Yup. I was just dropping that little tidbit in as a point of reference when it comes time to review this discussion and actually decide on whether and how to deal with this whole issue. Specific examples (usually) help, hopefully this will also. dr.ef.tymac 01:01, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the propagation of errors is inevitable but the errors are not systematic but random (hopefully). The bigger issue is one of philosophy. For example, surely an FA article can use another FA article as its source. If not, then what is the point of the FA process. If yes, then we accept this because we assume good faith in the process. Since a fundamental policy of Wikipediaa is to assume good faith then we must assume all editors and articles are written in good faith and follow Misplaced Pages policy. An analogy is the democratic right to vote: we assume every one makes a wise choice by the good faith in the will of the people. We do not - as policy - assume otherwise. Even when we know very well that our brother-in-law is clue-less in politics, every ones' vote counts. Likewise, even though we know there are vandals lurking in Misplaced Pages, we must assume every article counts. Else, the whole Misplaced Pages process is useless. Seriously, why debate verifiability as policy if Misplaced Pages does not see itself as being useful as a reference. What in the world are we doing? Cheers! Wassupwestcoast 00:29, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

To use a different analogy, it probably doesn't make sense to abolish The Office of Internal Affairs, even if we are confident that all of our police officers are good at self-enforcement. Even if we trust the cops to uphold the law, and consistently report on their fellow bad-apple-officers, it still makes sense to require our implicit trust to be substantiated by the oversight of an "outside agency".

Such a requirement does not necessarily mean we are "pessimistic". It could also mean that we just take some matters very seriously; that we are willing to apply safeguards that are much more rigorous than necessary, in order to preserve the highest standard of integrity and accountability. dr.ef.tymac 01:12, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, your analogy is good. But the cops do work together and trust each other (we hope). Each cop doesn't insist on talking only to Scotland Yard (that is comletely outside the system and the country). The The Office of Internal Affairs is there as an over-sight but in day to day work cops don't have anything to do with it and the various law enforcement angencies work together (again, we hope.) Cheers! Wassupwestcoast 01:47, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

My take: Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia -- a tertiary source. All our information should, by definition, come from primary and secondary sources and, in extremis, from other encyclopedias with a high degree of reliability (Britannica comes to mind). Citing other Misplaced Pages articles as sources is an aberration; that information has to have come from somewhere else, and in order for it to be reliable, we need to pinpoint what that other source is. Any compromise on this threatens to seriously diminish our credibility. Biruitorul 02:05, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Updating language

As per the request to see how the discussion panned out, the sentiment here and the weight of the argument is in favor of prohibiting use of Misplaced Pages articles for sources, in part due to verifiability concerns. So I've re-added that statement, which was apparently taken out in June then re-added in Mid-August, leading to the present discussion. As far as I can tell only a couple people are arguing in favor of using Misplaced Pages to source material. This is also consistent with policy, guidelines, essays, etc., elsewhere. We've talked about it, the discussion has died down and I think it's safe to say there is a consensus. Plus, it goes to a core foundational issue of Misplaced Pages, that material used in articles needs to be externally sourced. Unless anyone objects, the discussion ought to be closed. Wikidemo 19:26, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Not to nitpick, but the "strict prohibition" you refer to applies to using Misplaced Pages as a third-party source. Therefore, the use of Misplaced Pages as a reference in the article Criticism of Misplaced Pages (for example) would not be barred under the prohibition. As long as everyone is on the same page on this particular issue, then I'd generally agree with your summary, and concur with your conclusion. dr.ef.tymac 14:29, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

What happens when blogs and wikis are the only vestige of "peer review"?

The following is a hypothetical:

I am the inventor of a new programming language called "zoz". Originally, I started it out as just a part-time hobby (I'm actually a linguist) and the only documentation for it is on my personal website (which is both a blog and a wiki). After a while, some others showed interest, and someone wrote a Wikibook "Teach yourself zoz in a week". Somehow, the Wikibook became famous and some amazing things happened:

• Overnight, zoz has become the third most popular programming language in the world;
• Addison-Wesley has just published my recent book "The joy of zoz";
• Microsoft has just announced it plans to re-program its Operating System using zoz;
• A bunch of zoz fans have just written a WP article: Zoz (programming language) and it survived AfD because it is now notable.

Needless to say, I am delighted by all this, but something bad has also happened.

• A pesky WP contributor User:TyMac says the Misplaced Pages article is not balanced, because it only says "good" things about zoz;
• TyMac asserts that "The joy of zoz" amounts to little more than a promotional piece advocating the use of zoz;
• TyMac asserts that parts of my personal blog and wiki site should be included in the Zoz article, because it contains a complete history of my invention, along with comments and criticisms from users and creators of other programming languages;
• TyMac asserts that some of these comments and criticisms should be included in the WP article, in order to provide balance.

Although I acknowledge the criticism on my blog and wiki, I don't want any criticism of zoz to show up on Misplaced Pages, as it provides me with *great* advertising. Also, some Misplaced Pages contributors are starting to re-program parts of WP using zoz, and I don't want them to know about the flaws of my new language. I want to have "plausible deniability" if and when those parts of WP start blowing up.

Since the only sources of criticism are my personal blog and wiki (as well as blogs and wikis of other programmers) can I keep out all criticism of zoz on the grounds that blogs and wikis are in violation of WP:V (as well as WP:RS and WP:OR)? I am not a professional programmer, and I've never been published in computer science journals, so obviously my blogs and wikis are not a reliable source, right?

Please advise. dr.ef.tymac 03:09, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

It seems implausible that all that could happen overnight without the usual accompanying media scrutiny. The tech media would jump on it, prod it, poke it, review everything they could find on it, and write about it. SamBC(talk) 03:19, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Yes, please excuse the obviously fanciful parts. If it helps, remove the part about third most popular, and Microsoft, and assume it is an Open Source software project that recently won some award, thereby making it notable for inclusion. In the real world, there are *plenty* of Open Source software projects that are almost entirely documented via "word of mouth" blog entries, web-forums, wikis and non-mainstream sources.

I am begging your indulgence, suspend disbelief and pretend it's possible for a notable article to have scant published content that is mostly just favorable, with the only "counter-balance" occuring in Wikis, blogs, web-forums and other "low-budget" channels of communication. dr.ef.tymac 03:26, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Well, I'm not saying it's good (or bad), but as policies are currently written then the only sources we're supposed to use are reliable ones. Thus, until there's at least a mention of contention in some reliable sources, the article can only be positive. I would say that there are then two options to try and maintain NPOV — either try to moderate the tone of the article, so that all it says is that a lot of people think it's good, rather than saying it's good, or refuse to allow the article until it's possible to give a balanced report based on reliable sources. In practice, however, I suspect that many editors would be okay with a "for now" use of less reliable sources, in the interests of balance and accuracy. SamBC(talk) 03:30, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Simple answer: wovon mann nicht reden kann, darüber muß mann schweigen. Words that are surely tattooed on the heart of every Wikipedian.

Difficult answer:

• Tymac is being an arsehole and will get very short shrift on Misplaced Pages and just about anywhere else.
• Addison-Wesley's publication is definitive on the paper publication of the language. This may vary from the version used by the most popular compilers. This is not a new thing.
• Microsoft's statement is definitive on Microsoft's statements, which are of course considered to be highly significant. If Bill Gates stands up at Comdex and says "C# is history! C++ is archeology! We're going with zoz!" then you're doing okay and every newpaper from The Guardian to the Daily Bugle is going to be talking about it.
• I am saddened to be reminded that many articles survive AfD because of something as ridiculous as our "notability" guidelines, but that's not an issue here.
• Tymac can be sent off to find a reliable source asserting a verifiable opinion on your blog notes.
• When things blow up you'll be exposed, and so will Misplaced Pages and Microsoft for their feckless software development decisions.
• Misplaced Pages will cover that too.
• I may have missed some detail but I think I got the general gist.

Misplaced Pages isn't a substitute for god. It's imperfect. It can never be perfect. In particular, when it comes to reporting events Misplaced Pages itself is involved in, you'd be mad to trust Misplaced Pages to do a good job.

Still, Misplaced Pages can and should try to do its best for all involved.

If you think that was bad, you should see some of our articles on the Middle East, Korea, Latin America, or whatever. --Tony Sidaway 03:53, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

And I forgot to say that if you think you, Bill Gates, Tymac, Misplaced Pages and I are wankers in this whole affair, it must be a while since you read the bible. That "god" guy in the books is a complete and utter tosser. --Tony Sidaway 03:59, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Good answers, not necessarily because I like (or dislike) them, but because even if I disagreed with the reasoning, it's definitely consistent -- with a dash of perspective thrown in for good measure, no less. Thanks, Tony and Sam. Regards. dr.ef.tymac 04:18, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

Specific case information removed to User talk:Dreftymac#Verifiability case specifics — SamBC(talk) 19:23, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Having had the other half of this discussion over on No Original Research, there is a disconnect between the view that anything notable enough to be in Misplaced Pages will have good secondary sources and therefore this debate is a moot point, and the clearly held view that if enough people are interested to make something approaching a decent article that some small subset clearly find notable, then that is sufficient to avoid deletion. We are just about to hit the 2,000,000 articles mark. I'm not sure how many real subjects there are in there, but it is a lot.

The choice is: accept that notability does not equate with the availability of good secondary sources, and work out policy to cope with that (which is essentially saying popular culture and current affairs simply cannot achieve the same standards, so we need other guidance to avoid the worst excesses of poor editing) or hack your way back to say 50,000 articles because I'd guess that is about the level of notability other encyclopaedias work to, and for which there is a good pool of quality information. Somehow, I don't think Jimbo would be too happy building a business on 50,000 articles, and he would prefer to go for the 2 million as long as a reasonable standard of editing can be achieved.

So, Zoz is notable enough to be of interest to some small section of the community. The choice is accept the article and pragmatically accept that the information is as good as you will get and the sourcing will be weak and actually there might have to be some Wiki-eyeballed verging on OR stuff in there to keep the quality of the article up (damn the torpedoes!), or have some pretty nasty POV lurking in the article. Spenny 23:42, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

One thing that strikes me is that "Blogs" and "Wikis" seem to be enjoying something of a "credibility upgrade" ... even among "experts", even among academics operating under "publish or perish" constraints. The ironic thing is, (assuming I am correct), Misplaced Pages will probably be the last to recognize this trend, and WP:V and WP:RS will probably be the absolute last things on the internet to actually change in recognition of it. That's just my random prediction for the day. dr.ef.tymac 00:29, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

And Misplaced Pages actually has a mechanism to cope with the issue, the many eyeballs of the Misplaced Pages editors which was one of the original assumptions, but this tool has been thrown out with the bathwater. Spenny 09:41, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

any reader should be able to check

this rules out a lot of the citations in wikipedia. I can't check them cause they're in some book my library doesn't have or some journal you have to pay for etc. 68.40.255.51 08:41, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Send us a list of the books that you own and the newspapers that you buy regularly and we will make sure that everyone uses only those publications. Adrian M. H. 08:51, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

This comes up all the time. Basically there is no requirement that anyone must be able to verify the references from their keyboard, bookshelf, or local library. Commonly available free sources are preferred, all other factors being equal, but not required. If WP was no better than your local library, it wouldn't be as useful. 11:21, 20 August 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dhaluza (talk • contribs).

Any reader can check if they travel to another city, go to the library there, etc.; or anyway, large numbers of readers who live in diverse parts of the world can check (if they travel to the one city that has the book on public display, etc.) If large numbers of readers can check, then one hopes that someone might fix errors. --Coppertwig 23:37, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Clarification on removing material

Should this sentence:

Any edit lacking a source may be removed, but editors may object if you remove material without giving them a chance to provide references.

instead read:

Any edit lacking a reliable source may be removed, but editors may object if you remove material without giving them a chance to provide references.

Or:

Any edit lacking a reliable, published source may be removed by any editor; however, editors wishing to retain the material may object if you remove material without giving them a chance to provide references.

?

That would bring the wording closer to the nutshell. Brimba 13:37, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Brevity is best. The nutshell is supposed to reflect the page, not vice-versa. I don't see too many edit wars over this to begin with. All material should be sourced. Is there a difference between sources and reliable, published sources? If no difference, no point adding extra verbiage. If there is a difference I wouldn't support relaxing the standards in a way that encourages contentious editing. Any edit can be removed for most any purpose as a matter of improving an article, so saying that it can also be removed for lack of sourcing goes without saying.Wikidemo 17:55, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Distinguishing WP:Verifiability from WP:Reliable sources

During the whole WP:ATT promotion issue last April-May, one issue that really didn't get addressed all that well is the redundancy between WP:Verifiability and WP:Reliable sources. If we're going to have two separate policies or guidelines, we need to distinguish between the two somehow, and not just have them be copies of each other. I suggest that the underlying distinction is as follows:

• Verifiability discusses when facts and assertions need to backed up by a reliable source. (The answer in a nutshell: when the material is a quotation or is likely to be challenged)
• Reliable sources discusses what constitutes a reliable source. (The answer in a nutshell: a trustworthy or authoritative publication with regard to the subject)

We ought to be able to get rid of some of the redundancy, which through editorial drift is bordering right now on being a fork. Any comments? COGDEN 23:05, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Another thing: in policy discussions, people should say what they think or use first-principle arguments more often, and less often argue that something should be a certain way because another policy says so (unless the purpose is to make the policies consistent, rather than to decide what the policy ought to be). I think people get in the habit of arguing on the basis of policy, and forget to turn that off when in policy discussions. I think there are now 3 pages all with similar long definitions of primary, secondary and tertiary sources; let's cut out some redundancy. --Coppertwig 23:22, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

How about putting it all in one place and referring to it - like Misplaced Pages:Classification of sources. It's currently classified as an essay, but the intent in creating it was to try and have one definition which was the wikipedia definition (eventually). SamBC(talk) 23:54, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with this too. They shouldn't contain mixed information, especially considering they are not only a different area, but one is a policy and the other is a guideline where levels of scrutiny are different and assuming consensus from one applies to the other is not safe. I also agree regarding policy discussions--when you're trying to figure out whether or not a policy is an ethical one to follow, being self-referential is circular and not helpful except for the exception you mentioned. -Nathan J. Yoder 08:40, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree as long as RS is made policy and not a guideline. Too often someone will try to jam through an unreliable source under the guise that that RS or something else is really just a guideline so that means they can ignore it whenever they want to use wikipedia as their soapbox.--Crossmr 14:47, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

My own view is that RS should be deleted or demoted to essay status. If it's to remain a guideline, it would be good if, as Cogden suggests, it becomes advice about which sources to use, and not just a fork of V. The problem, as Crossmr says, is that people have in the past turned up and added nonsense. It's too much work for the same editors who monitor V and NOR also to monitor RS (which was part of the point of consolidating them in ATT). But if different editors do it, inconsistencies creep in, so I'd oppose RS becoming policy for that reason. At least as a guideline, people can just ignore it. SlimVirgin 15:02, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Ditto what SlimVirgin just said, except 3 caveats:

1) WP:RS has value for certain users -- the mere fact that there is a guideline with the words "reliable sources" in the title helps prevent missteps in some situations;

2) if WP:RS does get appropriately "toned down" so as not to conflict with WP:V, and so as to give advice about which sources to use, it should absolutely not dictate any prescriptive bounds, or create any kind of perception that there is a "blacklist" and a "whitelist" of sources that have the "WP stamp of approval"; and

3) even the most prestigious publications and journals are not immune to editorial misconduct. Thus, the "nutshell definition" is a good one, but the shell is not without its cracks. dr.ef.tymac 15:38, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Advice on sources is no good to be honest. We need policy, if only to to diffuse many potential disagreements over unacceptable sources. The moment you call it anything less than a policy you open the door for anyone to begin to say "Well this is just a guideline and not policy so lets just ignore it in this case because it supports my PoV". If we want to toss WP:RS, then WP:V needs to be made both a page about WHEN you should cite things and WHAT you can use for those citations. To me NOR is different in that its talking often about building cases by inferring things from sources, or drawing your own conclusions. NOR could be instead made about what constitutes acceptable sources that people can use to support statements, but I still feel this needs to be part of some policy, because one thing that prevents wikipedia from being a soapbox is that adherence to using only reliable and not what joe blow posted on some cheaply hosted site, or in a forum, or a blog, etc. --Crossmr 15:48, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

We tried consolidating them at the beginning of this year in WP:ATT, which summarized V, NOR, and RS. The plan was then to add an FAQ page, which would deal with how to identify good and bad sources. But after many months work, we had a poll of editors in which (writing from memory) we got a majority for the change (several hundred) but not what WP calls a consensus. So we were left with the three pages, two of them basically the same, and none about what counts as a good source. SlimVirgin 15:54, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I remember I was involved a little in that, but what about just combining WP:V and WP:RS leave NOR to itself for now. We really should make a concentrated effort as a community to make sure reliable sources are defined because otherwise what are we doing here? There may be some gray area sources but I'm sure there are things that everyone can reasonably agree on like "The New York times is a reliable source" and "A site on geocities is not".--Crossmr 16:17, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

We could combine them so long as the sources section of V wouldn't end up too long, because policies need to be succinct. Or we could have RS as a subpage of V to make clear which one has priority. SlimVirgin 17:54, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

No, it's more subtle and complex than that. The New York Times may be a reliable source for some things but not for other things. At the AIDS page, for example, some new cure reported in a news source is not considered reliable; only after it's reported in the peer-reviewed scientific literature does it stand much chance of getting mentioned on that page.

That's not correct. SlimVirgin 17:54, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

A site on geocities (like a Misplaced Pages page) might be a reliable source in rare cases for some things, such as backing up a claim that there is a geocities page purporting to be a certain statement by a certain famous person; or a reliable source might quote a famous or expert person as saying that they've made certain statements on a certain geocities site, and then the geocities site could perhaps be a reliable source as to what those statements are. It's not simple. That's why it should be in a guideline, not in policy. --Coppertwig 17:51, 28 August 2007 (UTC)