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| :: It's not a tu quoque argument; I'm not making any claims about ''you''. It is ''demonstration of an existing standard''. As stated previously, you're of course free to remove any original research, but there ''was no original research'' in that section; it was all referenced material. It wasn't even SYN, just a basic statement of facts, like you'll find in ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], and quite literally thousands of others. | :: It's not a tu quoque argument; I'm not making any claims about ''you''. It is ''demonstration of an existing standard''. As stated previously, you're of course free to remove any original research, but there ''was no original research'' in that section; it was all referenced material. It wasn't even SYN, just a basic statement of facts, like you'll find in ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], ], and quite literally thousands of others. | ||
| :: How is it OR? There is no original research in that section. How is it SYN? It doesn't do any "Source A says X, source B says Y, therefore X + Y = Z". It simply does, "Source A says X". Invincible says that Leonard Tose was fashionable, not garrishly dressed; Miss Potter says that Mr. Warne died of anemia, which wouldn't have included a cough as presented; World Trade Center didn't give a fair portrayal to the actions of Dave Karnes; How Titus Pullo Brought Down The Republic points out that Mark Antony couldn't have come with armed bodyguards because weapons were banned; in Ed Wood, Dolores Fuller learns of Woods' tranvestitism earlier than she did in real life; and on, and on. All of those are |
:: How is it OR? There is no original research in that section. How is it SYN? It doesn't do any "Source A says X, source B says Y, therefore X + Y = Z". It simply does, "Source A says X". Invincible says that Leonard Tose was fashionable, not garrishly dressed; Miss Potter says that Mr. Warne died of anemia, which wouldn't have included a cough as presented; World Trade Center didn't give a fair portrayal to the actions of Dave Karnes; How Titus Pullo Brought Down The Republic points out that Mark Antony couldn't have come with armed bodyguards because weapons were banned; in Ed Wood, Dolores Fuller learns of Woods' tranvestitism earlier than she did in real life; and on, and on. All of those are far closer to SYN and OR than anything you see here, yet they're ''standard'' on Misplaced Pages. And unlike the vast majority of "inaccuracies" pointed out on entertainment-related articles, almost in this article all referenced. This article far exceeds the standard for entertainment-related articles, and is distinctly not OR or SYN. I challenge you to demonstrate OR or SYN, and demonstrate that we don't exceed the standard for entertainment-related articles, instead of making sweeping, unsupported claims. -- ] 15:05, 29 August 2007 (UTC) | ||
Revision as of 15:22, 29 August 2007
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ResurgamII's massive edits
The series shows Grylls demonstrating extreme methods of survival in harsh conditions. -- We have solid sources stating that this is not the case. This is a false statement.
Removal of 2/3 of the survival advice section: As stated in the archives, and never countered, pointing out factual inaccuracies in entertainment-related artices is essentially *standard* on Misplaced Pages. You're of course free to remove any original research, but there was no original research in that section; it was all referenced material. It wasn't even SYN, just a basic statement of facts, like you'll find in Invincible (2006 film), Miss Potter, World Trade Center (film), Paul Revere's Ride, How Titus Pullo Brought Down the Republic, A Sound of Thunder (film), Ed Wood (film), Band of Brothers, Mutiny on the Bounty (1935 film), Walking Tall, They Died with Their Boots On, Bruce Lee: The Man, The Myth, Braveheart, The_Truth_About_Hillary, Dinosaur_(film), The_Day_After_Tomorrow, Alexander_(film), and thousands of others.
Removal of caveats, such as "supposedly": These are not weasel words in this case. This is a case where we really do not know whether these things actually happened, or were made up for TV. I would be open other wordings, certainly, but the caveats need to be presented. -- Rei 22:17, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
- One possible alternative that I would be open to, for example, would be a single caveat at the top of the section. Something along the lines of, "The show presents the following as techniques that Bear uses to survive", or other such wording. -- Rei 22:26, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Drinking Urine
Please see wikipedia article "Drinking Urine". It will hydrate the body for a short period of time, though after multiple consumptions it will become dangerous. Nonetheless, it will help you survive for a bit longer. I would also like to point out that I have drank my own urine during a survival excercise camp a few years ago. It is pretty salty but remember that urine is 97% water. It tasted bad, but it felt like I had a drink of soda. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.58.165.60 (talk) 21:35, August 27, 2007 (UTC)
Inaccurate Survival Advice section
There is a bullet under this section that says, "Getting wet: Being wet greatly increases the risk of hypothermia and also introduces other dangers that would not be present on dry land." The fact that it's in the inaccuracies section is either implying that Bear and the producers do not agree with this statement, or that this belief is inaccurate. I always thought this was true, so I'm assuming the implication is that Bear and the show's producers do not subscribe to this belief. This, however, is not true. Bear stresses in nearly every single cold-climate episode that getting wet is dangerous and could lead to hypothermia and that you should dry off as soon as possible. Several times, Bear has gotten wet on purpose to demonstrate the dangers (sometimes protecting his clothes from the water, sometimes stripping down to dry off), but he has never said anything that would contradict this original bullet point (at least that I've seen), so I'm not sure why it's there. Anyone? 68.198.153.243 04:01, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
- The problem is that someone went in and dramatically consolidated that section so that some bullet points barely make sense. I tried to go back in and make the section more readable, but my changes were removed. I'm tired of banging my head against this brick wall. The section was nearly perfect about a week ago; I see no reason for the changes that were made. I suggest it be returned to the state it was in, but I will not make any more corrections just to see them obliterated a week later. --Sm5574 02:54, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- Well, I'll give it the old college try and at least remove the getting wet part. It's ridiculous that it's there, with the suggestion being that the show actively recommends you get wet and get hypothermia. Anyone with half a brain, or who's actually seen the show (regardless of the other controversies), cannot purport that Bear or the producers ever recommended purposely getting wet in freezing climates.68.198.153.243 06:15, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- No, the statement merely needs to be reworded. Originally it said that Bear often submerses himself in water, which introduces the risk of hypothermia and also exposes him to other dangers that are not present on dry land. It also pointed out that getting wet is generally considered something to be avoided. There's nothing wrong with that statement, which is exactly why no one had any business changing it. --Sm5574 17:57, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- If you are referring to the times when Bear purposely jumps into freezing water, with no apparent survival purpose (i.e.: not even to make progress towards rescue), then I disagree. Neither Bear, nor the producers, ever advise anyone to submerge themselves in freezing water and get hypothermia. In these instances, Bear submerges himself in freezing water intentionally to show the audience what protective actions to take immediately afterwards to prevent hypothermia, in case they should accidentally do the same thing. There's a big difference. You can't demonstrate how to dry off if you're not wet, so Bear intentionally gets wet. Yes, jumping into freezing water is inadvisable, but the show is not suggesting that anyone do so in these instances. Now, if you're just referring to any time Bear gets into water at all, such as when he crosses a river to make progress towards rescue, then that's an entirely different issue and not what I'm specifically addressing and I apologize for the confusion; however, he still typically takes preventative measures against hypothermia, such as protecting his clothes inside a waterproof jacket before crossing and immediately changing once he reaches the other side. 68.198.153.243 05:44, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- Your portrayal of the situation is only accurate in, what, two episodes? And only parts of them, at that. He jumps in an ice lake in the Alps to inaccurately describe how to get out of it, and warms up after landing in a lake in the Sierras. The rest of the time, in almost every episode, he deliberately beelines for the nearest source of cold water and jumps in it to "get downstream". -- Rei 15:37, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- Wow, who pissed in your cornflakes? Maybe it shouldn't have been deleted, but the original entry definitely has to at least be reworded (as Sm5574 said). Barely bean 16:37, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- All I was trying to say is that Bear has said multiple times that getting wet is undesirable and could lead to hypothermia. This contradicts the assertion that he recommends getting wet. The section this was in was "inaccurate survival advice". At the very least it should be reworded so that it includes the incorrect rationale for getting wet. From his "survivalist" point of view, jumping into water to get downstream is the shortest or only path to rescue in his contrived scenarios. But whatever, I understand 100% that I'm splitting hairs and clearly I just need to drop it, so I will. 68.198.153.243 22:43, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- Your portrayal of the situation is only accurate in, what, two episodes? And only parts of them, at that. He jumps in an ice lake in the Alps to inaccurately describe how to get out of it, and warms up after landing in a lake in the Sierras. The rest of the time, in almost every episode, he deliberately beelines for the nearest source of cold water and jumps in it to "get downstream". -- Rei 15:37, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- If you are referring to the times when Bear purposely jumps into freezing water, with no apparent survival purpose (i.e.: not even to make progress towards rescue), then I disagree. Neither Bear, nor the producers, ever advise anyone to submerge themselves in freezing water and get hypothermia. In these instances, Bear submerges himself in freezing water intentionally to show the audience what protective actions to take immediately afterwards to prevent hypothermia, in case they should accidentally do the same thing. There's a big difference. You can't demonstrate how to dry off if you're not wet, so Bear intentionally gets wet. Yes, jumping into freezing water is inadvisable, but the show is not suggesting that anyone do so in these instances. Now, if you're just referring to any time Bear gets into water at all, such as when he crosses a river to make progress towards rescue, then that's an entirely different issue and not what I'm specifically addressing and I apologize for the confusion; however, he still typically takes preventative measures against hypothermia, such as protecting his clothes inside a waterproof jacket before crossing and immediately changing once he reaches the other side. 68.198.153.243 05:44, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- No, the statement merely needs to be reworded. Originally it said that Bear often submerses himself in water, which introduces the risk of hypothermia and also exposes him to other dangers that are not present on dry land. It also pointed out that getting wet is generally considered something to be avoided. There's nothing wrong with that statement, which is exactly why no one had any business changing it. --Sm5574 17:57, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- Well, I'll give it the old college try and at least remove the getting wet part. It's ridiculous that it's there, with the suggestion being that the show actively recommends you get wet and get hypothermia. Anyone with half a brain, or who's actually seen the show (regardless of the other controversies), cannot purport that Bear or the producers ever recommended purposely getting wet in freezing climates.68.198.153.243 06:15, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
"Future of the show is uncertain"
Removed this bit added by user Rei who wrote on the edit summ. "Restoring statement about the future of the show, as it is referenced.":
The future of the show is uncertain. with a link to a Dailymail article.
However, upon closer examination the article list nothing about the future of the being "uncertain". Thus removed. This was previously deleted by was Tao of tyler. Corrode 16:42, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
- The article has been shortened since its original publication. It originally included a C4 executive stating, "If what has been alleged is proven to be true, I think the channel would have to think very seriously about its future relationship with him." I've replaced the article reference with a Times article.
- The altered wording is fine by me. -- 70.57.222.103 02:15, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Drinking Urine / Using Misplaced Pages as a reference
User:64.58.165.60 has, three times in a row, added an inaccurate statement into the "drinking urine" section, providing only Misplaced Pages as a reference. Each time, I have removed it, noting that Misplaced Pages cannot be used as a reference: "Articles and posts on Misplaced Pages or other open wikis should never be used as third-party sources.". 64.58.165.60, if this continues, I'm going to ask for intervention. -- Rei 02:26, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- I see that the editor with the anonymous IP address attempted to add the following from this edit. :
Urine is about 2% salt, and can thus cause further dehydration if consumed in high amounts. However, consuming urine to stay alive has been accredited to the survival of trapped climbers and lost seamen . The consumer will not feel the ill effects of urine consumption until he/she has consumed fairly large quantities of urine .
I don't find any problems at all with the first two sentences. A quick google check brings up two reports from University of Hamburg Department of Biology and Vanderbilt Univ. stating urine is around the same percentage of salt content and one discusses why humans cannot drink urine for too long (ie kidney damage). The second sentence is also on par with this news report as well as this one from the UK Times site.
A slight rewording of the second sent. to "lost or trapped travelers" or (coal workers in this case) and reference change is simply needed. Corrode 13:41, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- That's called an anecdote, and it is not evidence. Otherwise, I could claim that because just before the last time I had surgery I had my photo taken, and because I survived surgery, that taking your photo in pre-op makes you survive surgery. I'm sure you see the fallacy in that, but that's exactly what you're doing here. We don't need anecdotes when we already have ample expert testimony referenced. Now, if you had similarly expert testimony or a study to back up your claims... -- Rei 15:08, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
- I left in the first claim (2% salt), because it was backed up, and because it coincides with the other references (US Army Field Manual says the same thing). Neither ref made the claim that it had to be "consumed in high amounts" to cause dehydration; rather, the argument presented in the first reference would argue *against* that, because it points out that your body can't concentrate salts any more than it already does in urine, and that drinking it is like drinking seawater (the already-existing expert references say the same thing). I took out the anecdotal claims, as they have no merit. I also took out the second reference, as it was a psych professor making medical claims that he has no qualifications to make in a non-reviewed paper, using geocities and similar sites as references to most of his claims that were referenced at all. There was only one solid reference in that entire page, and that was a dated reference that only supported a single one of the hundreds of claims on that site. -- Rei 15:21, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Original research and synthesis.
I've removed a good chunk of information from the "Inaccurate survival advice" section per WP:SYN. This is pretty much a classic case of "source A said X, source B (in this case Bear) did Y, thus Bear is wrong." The problem I had with the portion I deleted is that none of sources linked to (some of which were shoddy or not even working) had nothing to do with criticizing Bear's survival advice. This is the hallmark of inappropriate synthesis. The bit I did leave is good, because it's an actual criticism of what appears on the show. What you can't do is original research and start extrapolating. ~ UBeR 04:23, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- This is the same problem I've had with the inaccurate survival advice section from the start, which I can assume is the problem ResurgamII had, and going back all the way to the first time I removed the bit about drinking urine. Whether drinking urine is in fact bad for you is not the issue, and I frankly couldn't care less. But its inclusion isn't encyclopedic because no credible source has criticized it. As soon as some reliable source has said something about Bear doing it, like in the case with the raft, the hotels, the bear suit, etc., THEN you can put it in. And claiming that this doesn't violate WP:SYN or WP:OR just because it is done in other articles is a Tu Quoque attempt at defense. --Tao of tyler 04:54, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
- It's not a tu quoque argument; I'm not making any claims about you. It is demonstration of an existing standard. As stated previously, you're of course free to remove any original research, but there was no original research in that section; it was all referenced material. It wasn't even SYN, just a basic statement of facts, like you'll find in Invincible (2006 film), Miss Potter, World Trade Center (film), Paul Revere's Ride, How Titus Pullo Brought Down the Republic, A Sound of Thunder (film), Ed Wood (film), Band of Brothers, Mutiny on the Bounty (1935 film), Walking Tall, They Died with Their Boots On, Bruce Lee: The Man, The Myth, Braveheart, The_Truth_About_Hillary, Dinosaur_(film), The_Day_After_Tomorrow, Alexander_(film), and quite literally thousands of others.
- How is it OR? There is no original research in that section. How is it SYN? It doesn't do any "Source A says X, source B says Y, therefore X + Y = Z". It simply does, "Source A says X". Invincible says that Leonard Tose was fashionable, not garrishly dressed; Miss Potter says that Mr. Warne died of anemia, which wouldn't have included a cough as presented; World Trade Center didn't give a fair portrayal to the actions of Dave Karnes; How Titus Pullo Brought Down The Republic points out that Mark Antony couldn't have come with armed bodyguards because weapons were banned; in Ed Wood, Dolores Fuller learns of Woods' tranvestitism earlier than she did in real life; and on, and on. All of those are far closer to SYN and OR than anything you see here, yet they're standard on Misplaced Pages. And unlike the vast majority of "inaccuracies" pointed out on entertainment-related articles, almost in this article all referenced. This article far exceeds the standard for entertainment-related articles, and is distinctly not OR or SYN. I challenge you to demonstrate OR or SYN, and demonstrate that we don't exceed the standard for entertainment-related articles, instead of making sweeping, unsupported claims. -- Rei 15:05, 29 August 2007 (UTC)