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Archives August-September 2007

Disputed

I have re-added the {{disputed}} tag to the article. I am extremely disappointed that PHG has been doing major reverts on information that I spent quite a bit of time working on, and I am also concerned that, after I added a completely new paragraph from a completely new source, PHG then came along and deleted it within hours, without any attempts at discussion. It is my opinion that Schein's new book is completely relevant here, as she is the same author that we are relying on for other statements in the article, from earlier in her career. And I would advise PHG that edit wars are completely ineffective in terms of promoting a particular point of view in an article. The proper way to proceed is to identify areas of dispute, and then discuss them at the talkpage and check for consensus of other editors -- not simply to delete sourced paragraphs that you disagree with because they don't support your position. --Elonka 04:47, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

• Well Elonka, you deleted pages of my own work in the first place (as you did yesterday when I had to spend 2 hours to put sources back in), so do not be surprised if I put it back in place. Respect others' work, and yours will be respected. However, if you look again closely at the edit you are mentionning you will see I almost did not touch the content you added (appart from one unreferenced phrase), but just reinstated my original contribution (pages, which you had deleted) to that paragraph, side-by-side with yours.
• Contrary to your second claim, I retrieved your small paragraph on Schein's book above, moved the text on the Talk Page, and explained my reason for doing it (i.e. obvious over-interpretation of sources).
• You will have to be more specific for your "Dispute" tag: what exactly do you dispute in terms of factual accuracy? Regards PHG 04:55, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I did not delete your work, I *changed* several paragraphs, as is encouraged on Misplaced Pages. Each time you edit the page, it clearly says at the bottom, "If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly... do not submit it."

As for disputes, I dispute several things, but let's start with these. For reference, here's my version, and your version.

• I dispute the sentence "Various modern historians state that there is evidence to indicate that the Mongols controlled for some time." I also disagree with how this information is presented. In my version, we just lay out what each historian says, and where they got their information from, so that our readers can decide for themselves. In yours, I feel that this leading sentence is pushing a POV, and by the quantity of "ref" links after each phrase (some of which refs are misquotes, as I discussed above), that you're trying to make a case that the majority of historians agree that the city was occupied "for some time." I dispute this portrayal.
• I dispute the sentence, "According to Schein in her article "Gesta Deis per Mongolos", the Mongols did rule over the Holy Land between February and May 1300, but the recovery of the Holy Land by the Christians did not take place." I feel that this is a mis-interpretation of what she said. Plus your revert has re-inserted a misspelling of her article title.
• I dispute that the title of the article, "Franco-Mongol alliance" is appropriate, since I maintain that there was never a major alliance. I have offered several possible compromises for a different title, every single one of which you have rejected. I have asked you to supply some other alternative, and you have simply declined. I am open to compromise on this issue, but you have to suggest an alternative.
• I dispute the use of Jotischky's statement about Ghazan's "symbolic occupation", since he lists Schein as his source for that information, and he obviously misinterpreted her research. Schein never stated as a fact that Ghazan was in Jerusalem, but instead listed that claim as one of the potential rumors that was flying around Europe in 1300. I had added a qualifier to Jotischky's quote, you removed it.
• I also dispute the removal of this paragraph from Schein's book, which I added and you immediately removed. There is also some muddling between what she said in 1979, and what she said in 1991, but I think it's essential that if we include her statements from 1979 and 1991, that we also include what she said (posthumously) in 2005.
• And as we discussed above, I dispute your revert where you included a biased interpretation of the quote from Angus Donal Stewart's book. (Your revert also re-inserting a misspelling of his name)

I also still have concerns about other sections of the article, but if we can get the above addressed, I'll be willing to remove the {{disputed}} tag. --Elonka 07:31, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

• Hi Elonka :):):) So, you lament and cry "edit war" when I remove 2 unreferenced POV phrase, but when you take away pages of my referenced material, it is just "normal Misplaced Pages editing"? Isn't it a little bit inconsistent and unfair? And no, it is not normal to delete someone else's references to introduce your own story instead.
• Overall, it seems your comments refer to a few rather small editorial points, in one part of this article. Therefore I am afraid your umbrella "Factual accurary disputed" tag is inapropriate.
• 1) I am OK to adopt your presentation where each source would be discussed in detail. But it will have to incorporate both sides of the story, and avoid magnifying the sources you favour and discrediting the sources you don't. For example, your following statement tries to discredit the source with your own Original Research: this is not acceptable...

However, in The Crusaders and the Crusader States, Andrew Jotischky used Schein's 1979 and 1991 research to state, "after a brief and largely symbolic occupation of Jerusalem, Ghazan withdrew to Persia." Though, this is a possible misinterpretation, since Schein never stated as a fact that Ghazan was in Jerusalem, but instead listed that claim as one of the potential rumors that was flying around Europe in 1300.

We are not supposed to second-guess and try to discredit published authors, except if you have a reference for the second-guessing and the discrediting.

• 2) If you dispute the portrayal of Schein I am making, there is a very simple solution: we will just quote was she says. I.e. she says that it is a fact that the Mongols ruled over the Holy Land in 1300, and she says that it did not happen that the Mongols captured the Holy Land and remitted it to the Christians.
• 3) "Franco-Mongol alliance" is a scholarly expression which is fully referenced (Grousset, Demurger etc...). This is enough of a justification to have an article with that name. On the contrary, you propose "Franco-Mongol alliances", but the plural is visibly an original research neologism of yours, and does not even have a single hit on Google. And if you wish to have an article entitled "Diplomatic relations of the Mongols with Europe", be my guest, create one, as it will be very different in content.
• 4) As discussed in point 1), you cannot try to dismiss Jotischky's statement with your own suppositions on his reasoning. This is pure OR on your parts. We'll just quote him, and that's it.
• 5) Your interpretation of the Schein quote is pure Original Research ("she seems to put the matter to rest..."), and not acceptable (except possibly if it comes at the end of a long argument against the subject of Mongol occupation, which visibly is not the case since you would have quoted it already):

"In Schein's 2005 book, Gateway to the Heavenly City: Crusader Jerusalem and the Catholic West (1099-1187) published shortly after her death in 2004, she seems to have put the matter to rest, by stating clearly that after Saladin recaptured the city in 1187, except for the period from 1229-1244, Jerusalem remained under Muslim control throughout the rest of the Middle Ages." quoting Schein, 2005, p. 157. "Earthly Jerusalem, ruled by the Moslems (except for the short period of 1229-1244), was to loom large in all types of medieval apocalypticism."

• 6) As already explained the Angus Donal Stewart reference was given by a great editor (User:Aldux). Please give him time to respond to your querry, and let's move from that.

Best regards. PHG 13:00, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

This is probably the most polite edit war ever. Nevertheless you are in conflict. Please try to resolve or otherwise engage in a conflict resolution system. Arnoutf 22:38, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Heh, well, thanks for noting that we're being polite about it.  ;) But I agree that there is a conflict. My recommendation is that we try a few more rounds of talkpage discussions and edits to the actual article, but if we get to the point where there are just reverts being done every day (even if they're being done in a polite and articulate manner), we should probably proceed to the next step of dispute resolution. What I'd prefer is if we could get comments from enough other editors, to check an actual consensus on how to proceed. I've tried asking for comments from multiple other sources, but it appears that our topic here is so obscure, that most people don't want to weigh in. We could potentially go for a more Misplaced Pages-wide RfC, if we can nail down the specific issues. For example, we could potentially create a section on the talkpage with a very clear question (like, "What should this page be titled?" "Should the following sentence be included?" and see if we can get any opinions that way. If we can't get any other editors offering actual opinions though, and this continues to just be an impasse between the two most active editors (myself and PHG), we may have to proceed to mediation. --Elonka 23:38, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I still edited a few Pov and unsourced blanket phrases (However, modern historians agree that there was no 1299 battle for Jerusalem, and that the Templars were nowhere near Jerusalem around that time), but overall it seems the Jerusalem paragraph is starting to be pretty balanced, well-informed, and stable. Again, I am glad that we moved from a "this DID NOT happen", to a proper presentation of facts and sources, both ancient and modern.

To me, the article title issue is simply a non-issue, as the term "Franco-Mongol alliance" is well referenced among scholarly sources (Grousset, Demurger... among those I have), and the alternative being proposed are either original research neologisms ("Franco-Mongol alliances"), describe a different content ("Relations between the Mongols and Europe"), or are downright misleading ("Christian-Mongol alliances"... as so many of the Mongols were Christians).

Thank you to all for your great contributions and collaborative efforts. This article is probably now one of the best sources available on this subject matter.PHG 04:02, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

(note) I am continuing this thread in the next section, "Article title", where I have laid out my concerns about POV-pushing in more detail. --Elonka 20:13, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Article title

The disagreement boils down to this: PHG likes "Franco-Mongol alliance". I don't. He says that it's what the majority of sources use. I disagree. He says it's the only possible title we can use. I disagree. I've offered to compromise. He has rejected all compromises. I have offered alternatives. He has rejected all alternatives. I have asked him to suggest alternatives. He has declined, and calls it a "non-issue." I don't feel that PHG is being particularly sporting about this, but let me try and lay things out in a more clear fashion, so that we can see who is using what:

• Grousset. "Franco-Mongol alliance", or at least that's the title of one minor section heading (in French). Though I would point out that even Adam Bishop says that Grousset is "quaint and outdated."
• 1911 Brittanica: "The alliance with the Mongols remained, from the first to the last, something of a chimera" (added 23:46, 15 September 2007 (UTC))
• (1979) Encyclopedia Brittanica. Under the "Mongols" heading, uses the index entry of "Crusaders military relations"
• Maalouf. Called the alliance a "dream"
• Barber. Called the alliance a "project" and "the possibility of an alliance"
• Schein. "plans for an alliance"
• Martin. "A combined force"
• Nicolle. "Potential allies", but that overall the major players were the Mamluks and the Mongols, and that the Christans were just "pawns in a greater game."
• Tyerman. "pursuing the will of the wisps of a Mongol alliance" (added 20:20, 15 September 2007 (UTC))

I think it's also illustrative to see how other historians are titling their books and chapters:

• "The Crusade and the Mongols"
• "The Franks and the Mongols"
• "The Mongols and the Near East"
• "The Mongols and the West"

Now, I do agree that there was an alliance between at least the Armenians and the Mongols, but I'll also point out that the Armenians weren't really "Franks." The Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia eventually became a part of the Kingdom of Jerusalem, and they were Christian, but they weren't really "Frankish" or "European". I also think that the Armenian king had his back against the wall when it came to the Mongols, and when they arrived, his choice was "become an ally, or be annihilated." In modern terms, he was "absorbed by the Borg" of the Mongols.  :) Antioch was more of a Crusader state than Armenia, but its main purpose for allying with the Mongols was close ties with Armenia (father-in-law). No one else appears to have engaged in any kind of successful military collaboration. Accordingly, my current favorite titles, in order of preference, are:

1. Crusader-Mongol relations
2. Mongol-Crusader relations
3. Christian-Mongol relations
4. Mongol-Christian relations
5. Franco-Mongol alliances (plural)
6. Christian-Mongol alliances
7. Mongol relations with Europe (currently a redirect)
8. Franco-Mongol joint military campaigns
9. Franco-Mongol military operations

I am also open to other alternatives, if anyone would like to make suggestions? To anyone reading, even if you're not participating in the editing of the article, I would still be interested in your opinion. --Elonka 05:27, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

For the record, Cilician Armenia is considered as a Frank state ("There are five Frank states(...): the Kingdom of Jerusalem, (...) the County of Edessa, the County of Tripoli, the Principality of Antioch, but also the Kingdom of Little Armenia", Les Croisades, Origines et consequences, p.77-78, 2004). PHG 07:53, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi Elonka, now that you seem to have finally accepted that there were indeed many instances of cooperation between the Franks and the Mongols, it is hard to see why you are so hard against the title itself. Just to state my reasons again: the term "Franco-Mongol alliance" is well referenced among scholarly sources (Grousset, Demurger (2002)... among those I have), and the alternative being proposed are either original research neologisms of yours ("Franco-Mongol alliances"), describe a different content ("Relations between the Mongols and Europe"), or are downright misleading ("Christian-Mongol alliances"... as so many of the Mongols were Christians). "Relations" is also much to minimalist, as the thruth is that alliances were sought for, formally agreed to by Western and Mongol rulers, and applied on numerous instances over long period of time. Regards. PHG 05:44, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Grousset is outdated, and plenty of historians (as mentioned above) strongly disagree with him. And I strongly disagree that there was "formal agreement" on alliances that were "applied on numerous instances." The idea of alliance was talked about a lot, but never really happened. Now, I really wish you would simply suggest an alternative title, rather than being completely inflexible on this. --Elonka 05:52, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Grousset is old (1930's), but not outdated: he is a classic of Crusades history and is constantly re-printed (my edition is 2006). Demurger is neither old nor outdated (2002) and is one of the foremost authorities on the subject. I am afraid that your claim there was no alliance is groundless, contradicted by facts and scholarly sources. Relax Elonka, accept that this is a great article with a great title on a great subject (and lots of great references!) :) Regards PHG 06:14, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I think it's a very good article, that will make a great FA some day, after we deal with a few sections that are trying to push a POV. I think that there are mainly three inappropriate POVs that are being pushed: (1) The claim that Jerusalem was conquered by the Mongols in 1299/1300; (2) The claim that there was a major alliance between the Franks and the Mongols; and (3) The claim that the Templars were one of the leading forces in both promoting a Mongol alliance, and fighting alongside the Mongols. Of the claim that Jerusalem was conquered by the Mongols in 1299/1300, I believe that this claim is incorrect, that Jerusalem was not conquered by the Mongols, and that the vast majority of reliable historians say that no such conquering took place. I believe that you think it did take place, and you're trying to bend certain sections of the article into pretzels, in order to try and make your case. I also believe that you're pushing a POV via the article title, by trying to make a case that there was this grand alliance between the Franks and the Mongols, when the majority of reliable sources say that despite numerous attempts, that there really wasn't such an alliance. I also protest the Templar-centric views in some parts of the article, but that's a lesser concern. The top 2 are my main focus right now. So let me be very clear here, on just the title issue: I think it is inappropriate to title the article "Franco-Mongol alliance", because there was no formal alliance. I think we should pick a different title. PHG, I am trying to respect your own views here, since you created this article, but you and I are currently the two primary editors here, and we do not have consensus that the current title is appropriate. So, I am asking you again, to please choose an alternative, or suggest an alternative, so that we can discuss it and try to reach consensus. If you still refuse, I'll probably just pick the alternate title that I like best, and file an RM, or an RfC, and then we'll see how things go from there. I would really rather not go that route, as I would rather that you and I could discuss things in good faith, and reach a mutually-agreeable compromise, but you seem completely opposed to any type of compromise, so you are limiting my options here.  :/ --Elonka 07:27, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi Elonka. I am afraid you are mistaken: this is not your opinion against mine, this is really not a matter of opinion at all. Opinions are irrelevant on Misplaced Pages, only sources and references matter. "Franco-Mongol alliance" is a scholarly expression which is fully referenced (by Grousset (1936/2006) or Demurger (2002) as a factual event, and by many others as something that was attempted and achieved in limited ways). This is enough of a justification to have an article with that name. End of the discussion: there is no need to argue endlessly about your own opinions here. You may well create other articles with other titles if you wish, but the subject discussed here is the Franco-Mongol alliance. Best regards. PHG 07:50, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Just because Grousset has been recently reprinted doesn't mean you should use him as your major source. It was still written in 1936 and crusade studies are far more advanced now. As another example, my copy of Runciman is a reprint from 1994 but it still reflects 1951 scholarship. All that means is that it is an old book in a shiny new cover. Adam Bishop 08:02, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough, but Grousset it still highly relevant in many instances, as is Runciman. Demurger (2002) also is a major modern source. Regards PHG 08:15, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

In this occasion, I have to stand with PHG: at the cost ov being obvious, remember that historiography isn't physics, and in historical debate seminal works (as are here without doubt Grousset's and Runciman's works) continue to be upholded and used as references and discussed.--Aldux 23:27, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

Franco-Mongol alliance → Crusader-Mongol relations — Move is being requested to a more appropriate title, since there was never really a formal alliance between the Crusaders and the Mongols. —Elonka 08:37, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Misplaced Pages's naming conventions.

• Support (as nominator). I've done extensive research on this topic, in a variety of reliable sources in multiple languages. Though there is a book from the 1930s by Rene Grousset, written in French, that refers to a "Franco-Mongol alliance", the vast majority of modern sources agree that though there were many attempts at an alliance, that no such thing really existed on a large scale. The topic is still worth a Misplaced Pages article, but it would be better served by an article title of "Crusader-Mongol relations". --Elonka 08:40, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose (as creator of this article) "Franco-Mongol alliance" is a scholarly expression which is fully referenced by Grousset (1936/2006) or a leading expert of the period such as Demurger (2002) as a factual event, and by many others as something that was attempted and achieved in limited ways (Barber, Schein). Although it may have been more or less successfull (5-6 coordinated campaings over a period of 50 years) and ended in defeat, this alliance was nonetheless founded on written agreements between Western kings and Mongol rulers, coordinated strategic actions (attacks from the West by Western rulers, synchronized with attacks from the East by Mongol rulers), and even battles in the same ranks, although Western powers could rarely muster more than a few hundred knights. This alliance was also the main focus of the last efforts of the Templars to reconquer the Holy Land in 1298-1303. On the other hand, "Crusader-Mongol relations" is a neologism, which does not even obtain a single hit on Google, and would have to cover a much broader subject-matter (relations of the Crusaders and the Mongols in the Eastern Europe theater, cultural interactions, respective perceptions etc...). PHG 08:45, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
• Comment While the accusation of favouring a neologism is pretty correct, and so the proposed title may not be the best, I'd generally tend to accept the idea of a change, not because because it's obvious that PHG is wrong, but because it can't be honestly said that there is a full historical consensus behind such a strong title as the current. A softer title would have the advantage IMO of not opting in a direction or the other.--Aldux 23:20, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose, because the exact phrase "Franco-Mongol alliance" appears in reputable publications by more than one author and I am therefore inclined to regard it as more than merely a descriptive pharse and as a piece of scholarly currency. A phrase that has been used before of the thing under discussion must be preferred to a merely descriptive phrase invented for our purposes at Wikipeida, in my opinion. Srnec 03:54, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Discussion

Too many primary sources

I am extremely concerned by the excessive quantity of primary source quotes that being used (and are continuing to be being added) in the article. We already have plenty of secondary sources about this time period, we really shouldn't be quoting so many primary sources, especially because all historians are agreeing that many of the primary sources from the time were wrong. Per WP:QUOTE, an excessive number of quotes also tend to be distracting, and break up the flow of the encyclopedia article. And per WP:NOT, we're not trying to provide a comprehensive list here of every single quote about the topic, we're trying to provide a readable encyclopedia article.

In my opinion, the only primary sources we should be quoting on this topic, are direct extracts from correspondence between the leaders of the time, and only if such correspondence is being referred to in the text of the article, and has been confirmed by some other reliable secondary source as accurate. See WP:PSTS. For example, if we're saying, "There was communication between the Pope and the Mongol leader", it makes sense to quote an extract of that communication.

It is not, however, wise to be quoting all kinds of bits and pieces from the 1300s accounts of the Templar of Tyre and Hayton of Corycus and others from that era. I feel we're running afoul of WP:NOR, and we've already agreed that rumors were running rampant in the 1300s, so there's no need for us to continue spreading misinformation now, 700 years later. These extra primary source quotes should either be removed entirely, or moved down to the "Notes" section. Though considering that the Notes section is getting absurdly long as it is (over 200 notes, last I checked), I'm leaning towards deletion. Or, let's move them all over to Wikisource or Wikiquote, and then we can link to the page there. That way the collected information can still be maintained, but in a more appropriate venue. --Elonka 20:48, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Ancient sources are most of the time quoted here when they are also quoted by modern secondary sources, so you do not have to worry for OR (I am much more concerned by many of your OR statements in preceding discussions :)). Books on the periods have plenty such quotes, so there is no reason why Misplaced Pages should be an exception. Also, I am not sure that it is fair to qualify 13th century historians as "Primary sources" (Templar of Tyre or Hayton of Corycus for example): I would think they are actually secondary sources (historians, writing about a period), with the particularity that they are quite ancient. Lastly, ancient sources have an amazing capability to moderate modern fancy theories, i.e. they give us an objective window into what people actually heard, said and thought. What kind of historian would want to do away with ancient sources? As it stands, the article has a fine balance of ancient sources and modern theories, and I think it is fair not to privilege one over the other. PS: I do not see anything absurd in having 200 notes, and actually you are the one who initially complained this article was not referenced enough. Best regards PHG 21:14, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

They may have been historians, but they were generally writing their firsthand views on the situation. They were not writing in peer-reviewed publications, and should not be used as reliable sources, especially when we have much more recent research from modern and reliable historians. Our job at Misplaced Pages isn't to read the primary sources and then draw our own conclusions, our job is to summarize the modern perspective on the situation. The comments from the 1300s folks may be interesting, and worthy of including at Wikisource or Wikiquote, but I think we're getting much too cluttered here at the Misplaced Pages article, and that we're losing focus on what it is that we're trying to be doing here. We're not trying to write a comprehensive book or doctoral thesis here, we're trying to provide a readable encyclopedia article. PHG, I'm not faulting your ability to research -- you're obviously highly-motivated on this topic, and spending a lot of time researching. But I don't think that Misplaced Pages is the place for what you're trying to do. If you want to write a full out article where you quote everything in sight and lay out your opinions on what did or didn't happen in 1299/1300, fine, then write and publish an article in an academic history journal somewhere. But I think you're trying to bend Misplaced Pages to a purpose here, for which it's really not intended. Or in other words, a few sparing and rare quotes from the 1300s historians may be appropriate, but right now we have way too many, and they're not being used effectively. It seems like you're trying to transcribe every footnote from the French history books, here into the Misplaced Pages article. And that's just not appropriate. --Elonka 21:38, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Dear Elonka. Do you always exagerate that much??? Only the most essential quotes have been included in this article, and they are quotes which have been put forward and validated in the publications of modern historians. Best regards PHG 21:52, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I am very sorry that we seem to have reached yet another impasse. PHG, I do have great respect for much of the work that you have done on Misplaced Pages, and for your great attention to detail. It is just on this issue about the Mongols (and especially the Templars, a subject with which I am very familiar), that I feel we disagree. Since it seems that we are losing the ability to communicate in good faith towards mutually-agreeable compromises, may I suggest that we proceed to another stage of dispute resolution, and seek a neutral mediator? Perhaps with a third party in this discussion, we might be able to find a better way to communicate? Truly, I would rather find a way to work with you than against you, PHG. We obviously have many overlapping areas of interest, and I think that if we could figure out how to work through disagreements, it would be an overall advantage for Misplaced Pages. Please, join me in mediation? --Elonka 22:37, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I personally tend to think that there may be an excess of quotes of primary sources, and I'm always a bit uncomfortable with presenting primary sources without mediation; also I'm a bit scared by the length this article is assuming. That said, I feel Elonka is not fully understanding the importance of the rumours that spread in 1300, as they are of great importance to understand the hopes and expectations the West had towards the Mongols; for this, quite a lot of books from a research I made through Google Books cover these rumors, making them clearly notable.--Aldux 23:11, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

To the contrary, Aldux, I am extremely aware of the importance of the rumors, I'm the main person that's been presenting the case that there were rumors, and I'm even the one that created the "rumors" section in the article. However, my concern is that PHG is presenting some of these rumors as though they were reliable sources. I am completely okay on presenting a couple quotes about rumors, as long as we clearly present them as what they were, examples of speculation from the time period, that were later proven to be false. I'm also concerned with edits like this one, where PHG added an image (which is fine), but then he used the opportunity to place what I felt was a POV statement in the caption, saying that "Contemporary sources, whether Western, Armenian, or Arab, consistently describe the capture of Jerusalem by the Mongols in early 1300". I feel that that kind of statement is misleading, and is again being used to push a biased POV that Jerusalem was captured in 1300, when the majority of modern sources agree that it wasn't. --Elonka 23:33, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi Elonka, I am afraid you are denying the obvious. It is the reality that "Contemporary sources, whether Western, Armenian, or Arab, consistently describe the capture of Jerusalem by the Mongols in early 1300". It sums up the situation and can be referenced by several authors. And it does not even attempt to substitute itself to the judgement of modern authors, who by the way are simply divided on the subject, and are amply (too amply?) treated in the article. Ancient sources constitute an indisputable statement about what was actually said and thought during the covered period, and therefore are highly historic and encyclopedic in nature. I am amazed that you are trying to erase from this article the mention of what ancient sources have to say, especially when they are endorsed, referenced and quoted by a quantity of modern authors. Regards. PHG 04:32, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Mediation

I already mentioned this a couple times, but it seems to be getting buried in the discussion, so I'd like to start a new section to ensure that my offer is seen. We obviously have an impasse here, where dedicated editors (primarily myself and PHG) have a difference of opinion, and have been having trouble reaching consensus on how to proceed. Since we are at an impasse, I therefore propose that we seek the assistance of a third-party mediator, per WP:RFM, to try and assist us through this process. PHG, will you please join me in mediation? It is a voluntary process, and it is non-binding. Nothing is going to be forced on us by a mediator, but it is my hope that through the assistance of a mediator, that we may be able to find better ways to communicate, and find a mutually-agreeable way to proceed. --Elonka 07:30, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi Elonka. I am afraid it just seems that you are loosing ground on this page, and that now you would like to bring your battle somewhere else. Your proposal to change the article title is going nowhere near what you wished, quite the contrary. Your wish to eradicate ancient sources from the face of history articles cannot go very far either. You introduced many original research statements in your presentation of various historians, which you had to take away. You would like to go to Mediation now? But you don't even have a good reason to go to mediation. A few quotes too many? This is such a minor issue... An article title that you don't like? It is actually referenced in multiple publications. Elonka, I do appreciate your contribution, but I do not want to spend my life endlessly arguing with you on minor and pointless issues. Let's relax and have a good time. Be tolerant of others' contributions. Best regards. PHG 08:15, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Request for comment

Template:RFChist

Requesting comment on the following questions:

1. Was there a major alliance between the Crusaders and the Mongols?
2. How should the Misplaced Pages article be titled? "Franco-Mongol alliance"? Or "Crusader-Mongol relations" or something else?
3. Did the Mongols conquer Jerusalem in 1300?
4. How many and what types of primary source quotes are appropriate to use for this subject?
5. Were the Knights Templar major proponents of an alliance with the Mongols?
6. Was Jacques de Molay, Grand Master of the Knights Templar, present at a combined Christian-Mongol capture of Jerusalem in 1299/1300?

09:25, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

• 1. No.
• 2. Something like "Papal missions to the Mongol Khan" could cover it - only Piano Carpini, Benedict of Poland, Lawrence of Portugal and Ascelin were involved in the initial diplomatic missions and the focus of the diplomacy was Mongol incursions into Europe.
• 3. No. It's a myth.
• 4. Numerous peer-reviewed secondary sources would be needed for a series of major historical events.
• 5. No.
• 6. No. It didn't happen. After Saladin's reconquest in 1187 the next "Christian" invader of Jerusalem was Allenby in December 1917. --Ian Pitchford 19:03, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

• 1. Strategically, the Franco-Mongol alliance was a major alliance, but operationally the Western contribution, especially, remained small. Overall, it may not be a "major" alliance, but it was a significant alliance nonetheless.
• 2. "Franco-Mongol alliance", a recognized expression for the event in question.
• 3. Jerusalem was quite possibly taken by the Mongols in early 1300, in light of the overwhelming agreement of ancient sources (whether European, Arab or Armenian), confirmed by multiple modern secondary sources.
• 4. Primary sources: as necessary, but presented and referenced by modern secondary sources. By the way, 13th century historians cannot really be considered primary sources, they are just ancient secondary sources.
• 5. Actually yes, the Knights Templar were major proponents of an alliance with the Mongols, between 1298-1303. Just look at Molay's own writings, quoted by a leading historian such as Demurger.
• 6. Molay was probably not at Jerusalem, although he is known to have been present in the Holy Land shortly before and after the event (in Cilician Armenia in 1299, possibly Alexandria, Acre, Tortosa in July 1300, and surely Ruad in November 1300).

PHG (Original creator of the article Franco-Mongol alliance) 19:41, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

• 1. Probably not major, some case for ad-hoc alliances has been made
• 2. Follow history literature, seems to call it Franco-Mongol alliance, hence that seems fair.
• 3. No evidence; there is only the myth.
• 4. As few primary sources as possible; as interpretation is very tricky and should be left to expert scientists (hence use modern secondary lit). Primary sources preferably only to be used for uncontested facts and illustration.
• 5. I have seen no evidence for this, although the ad-hoc alliance may relate to this.
• 6. Very unlikely (the more so as it is not even clear the capture even happened).Arnoutf 19:56, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

• 1. No. There were many attempts at an alliance, but it never came together.
• 2. Crusader-Mongol relations
• 3. No. There were plenty of rumors at the time about such an attack, but they turned out to be false.
• 4. Very few, and only if they're used as major quotes (not just footnotes) in peer-reviewed secondary sources. Any other quotes, move to Wikiquote or Wikisource.
• 5. No (and I'm saying this as the main editor who got the Knights Templar article to Featured status). The Templars were definitely involved with some of the discussions, as were many other parties, but the Templars were not a primary force in the matter.
• 6. No. There was no attack, and De Molay was nowhwere near the area at the time. --Elonka 21:14, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Archiving

People can consult the archive for material needed to make a decision. I reverted the edit not archiving the talk page, because it got long and unwieldy. Mike H. I did "That's hot" first! 10:39, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Georgia question

I question this section of the article:

The Mongols first invaded Persian territory in 1220, destroying the Kwarizmian kingdom of Jelel-ad-Din, and then conquering the kingdom of Georgia. Genghis Khan then returned to Mongolia, and Persia was reconquered by Muslim forces.

In 1231, a huge Mongol army again came in 1231 under the general Chormaqan. He ruled over Persia and Azerbaijan from 1231 to 1241. In 1242, Baichu further invaded the Seldjuk kingdom, ruled by Kaikhosrau, in modern Turkey, again eliminating an enemy of Christendom. The Christian Georgian king George IV submitted to the Mongols in 1243, and became a regular ally in their military conquests.

George IV can't have allied with the Mongols in 1243, since he died in 1223. Plus, we're already saying that Georgia was conquered in 1220, so an "alliance" of a vassal state doesn't make a lot of sense. Can we please double-check sources here? Thanks, Elonka 23:54, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for catching this. It was Queen Rusudan of Georgia. "In 1243 the Queen herself became vassal on the understanding that the whole Georgian kingdom was to be given to her son under Mongol suzerainty." Runciman, p.250. The Mongols came once in the 1220's, and a second time in the 1240's. Best regards PHG 04:41, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Original research and deletion of sources

I corrected a few of Elonka's edit which are evidently original research, or amount the deletion of refererenced material:

• OR: "His statement is curious, considering that Schein never confirmed that Ghazan was in Jerusalem, but instead listed that as one of the rumors at the time."
• In the introduction, efforts to favor a single point-of-view rather than a abalanced view between the various the different authors: "Many attempts were made towards a Franco-Mongol alliance". Reinstated a more neutral "A Franco-Mongol alliance, or attempts towards such an alliance, occurred between the mid-1200s and the early 1300s, starting around the time of the Seventh Crusade."
• The whole new paragraph "Disagreements on the existence of an alliance" is essentially OR and an essay by Elonka. All these sources are already quoted elsewhere in the article. Unnecessary and not recommended on Misplaced Pages.
• Deletion of reference about the Armenians being considered as a Frank kingdom: "There are five Frank states(...): the Kingdom of Jerusalem, (...) the County of Edessa, the County of Tripoli, the Principality of Antioch, but also the Kingdom of Little Armenia", Les Croisades, Origines et consequences, p.77-78
• Deletion of referenced material on the Templars: "The Knights Templar and their leader Jacques de Molay strongly advocated, and entered into, a collaboration with the Mongols under Ghazan and fought against the Mamluks." Referenced from Demurger, p.139 "During four years, Jacques de Molay and his order were totally committed, with other Christian forces of Cyprus and Armenia, to an enterprise of reconquest of the Holy Land, in liaison with the offensives of Ghazan, the Mongol Khan of Persia". Also p.283: "But especially, from 1299 to 1303, he plays the Mongol card to the utmost. With his Order, and the other Christian forces of the kingdoms of Cyprus and Little Armenia, he tries to coordinate some operations with the Ilkha Khanate."

By the way Elonka, Runciman is not French, but British. And I am afraid that your categorizations "French historians say..." are untrue and OR. By the way, do not be surprised if some French historians are some of the most reliable on this period, as it is essentially a French subject matter, with most of the ancient material in French or Latin.:)

Best regards to all. PHG 05:40, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Sorry about the Runciman thing, that was a typo on my part (I know he's not French). As for much of the rest of your comments, it seems we have vastly different views on what "original research" is. In my opinion, you're engaging in original research by excessive reliance on ancient sources to make your point. I also strongly disagree with your edit here,, where you deleted an hour and a half of my own extensively sourced work, by accusing me of OR. It's my strong opinion that when we have multiple historians saying different things, that instead of edit-warring back and forth about which version to use, that we should just lay out all the (reliable secondary source) comments side by side and let our readers make up their own minds. As for your statement that French historians might be the most reliable on this matter, I think that we've pretty well established quite the opposite, at least as far as 19th century sources go.  ;) ( /me points at that big painting hanging in the Versailles, about the 1299 battle that never happened.) --Elonka 06:17, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I rephrased to "some French historians are some of the most reliable on this period", which is actually what I meant. I am afraid your treatment of French sources is partial and seemingly prejudiced (are we going to say, "American historians say...", "British historians say..." ?). By the way, you are conveniently omitting the non-French sources describing the Mongol alliance (some already otherwise quoted in this article). And I do not see any answer to your deletion of referenced material described above... PHG 11:30, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I just want to make two quick points...extensive examination of numerous and possibly contradictory primary sources is the very definition of "original research". It's great if you're an historian, but that's not what we are supposed to do on Misplaced Pages. Secondly, the most reliable sources on "this period" (assuming you mean the crusades in general) are currently in English; that's no slight against the French, who of course contribute extensively to crusade historiography. But the most prolific and important of them, Jean Richard, who even writes on this particular topic, hasn't been used in this article... Adam Bishop 07:45, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I slightly rephrased what I actually meant (i.e. French historians are some of the most knowledgeable on the period, not denying the value of English-language historians whatsoever), in reaction to Elonka's seemingly partial treatment of them. Scholars are known by themselves, and attempting to make an amalgam and to form a national stereotype is normally quite prejudiced and OR. Regarding Jacques de Molay (and the subject in which Elonka is particularly interested: the alliance of the Templars with the Mongols in 1298-1303), Demurger is probably is one of the first, if not the No1, world expert. To your second point, primary sources in this article are only shown as long as they are presented by modern secondary sources, a practice which exactly parallels what is generally done in articles or books on the period, including Misplaced Pages articles. Regards. PHG 11:30, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

PHG, I think you're degenerating into personal attacks here, and I really have to ask you to get back to discussing the article, instead of any character flaws which you think I may or may not have. But to try and answer your specific points: First, I'm not aware of any case of where I've been deleting reliably sourced information from the article. I have been moving a lot of things around. If I accidentally lost something in the middle (especially considering that you were reverting me every few minutes), I apologize, it was probably an accident. Unlike some of your own actions such as this one, where you deleted my work as "OR". As for your comments about any seeming bias I have towards French historians, I assure you, I have no such thing.  :) I've lived in France, I like France, I have great respect for France, and if I've done anything to imply that I don't have respect for French history, again, I apologize, as that was not my intent. However, it does seem to me that we do have some different versions of history that have been forking out, with the French historians saying one thing (especially about the Knights Templar and their relative importance in the scheme of things), and non-French historians saying something different. If this is actually the case, then instead of us yanking the article back and forth to try and argue about which version is "truth," I think it would be better if we just laid out both versions, and let our readers decide. To the point of primary sources, I agree with Adam Bishop, and have to add that just because a primary source is mentioned in a secondary source, does not then mean that it's alright to use that primary source to try and draw some other conclusion. In other words, just because Grousset (or Runciman, or whoever), says "According to Joinville, X," and "According to the Templar of Tyre, Y", doesn't mean that we can put in the Misplaced Pages article, "X and Y are true and accepted, and therefore mean Z." As for your claim about Demurger being the #1 world expert on the Knights Templar, I am unaware of any sources which state that Demurger is more highly respected than Malcolm Barber. Indeed, I've been seeing sources that criticize Demurger for a bit too much of "jumping to conclusions". But if you have a source that says that Demurger is now more highly regarded than Barber, I'm happy to review it. And lastly, can I please advise you to read WP:OWN? Best, --Elonka 16:30, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

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