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Rom

Folks, it's my understanding that these people call themselves "Rom" and consider Gypsy / Gypsies derogatory terms. How do we want to handle this?

I thought Rom was just one group of gypsies, the other being the Sinti? -- Simon J Kissane

Wow, this is even more complicated than I thought. :-) My main point was, "Do we want to list people under a term they consider offensive?" Comments?

I say yes, lets definitely not use words that might be considered derogatory. Maybe something like "Rom and Sinti"? (You might want to check first that I am correct about there being two groups with these names -- I'm not entirely sure, I just vaguely remember that there were something like that.)

Imagine that someone who knows nothing about that topic comes here and looks up "gypsies". You don't really want to throw a "not found" at them, do you ? Better -- Do use derogatory words as page titles. Make those pages very short -- briefly say the term is derogatory (some readers may not know), and link to the page titled with the term those people prefer. -- DavidCary

Also: what relation, if any, do Irish Travellers have to gypsies? -- Simon J Kissane

None, except that they're both traditionally semi-nomadic people and, this being the West, those that still move around tend to live in caravans. I thought the articles on the Roma and on Irish Travellers weren't confusing on this issue, so there's no need to change anything? -- Aleph

Please add as much as you can. Rmhermen 00:24, May 22, 2004 (UTC)

And for that matter, what's the difference between the Roma and the Sinti? The article goes to great lengths to say they're different, then doesn't tell us why. -- Paul Drye

Caught something the other night on some educational station (150 channels and can't keep them straight...) saying that at this point Romany has actually got a huge amount of loanwords from mostly central and eastern Europe, making it a kind of hybrid language (in the way that yiddish is). Anybody know anything about that? JHK

This is politically correct BS -- these people are called gypsies. Even the gipsy kings call themselves gipsies. Chinese don't call themselves Chinese either

Gypsy

An interestingly PC entry, in that every single reference in the entry calls them Gypsies, and that even the current use of "Gypsy" way outweighs the term "Roma and Sinti". I know I'd never heard of them. This goes against our basic policy of have the entry name be the common form. --The Cunctator

We should probably have a redirect from Gypsy to Roma (and Sinti, I guess, although I've never heard of them); if the Roma don't like the term, then don't use it. It's the same reason I changed San to Bushman: the word San has gained much popularity because this is "more politically correct" than Bushman (according to anthropologists), but it transpires that San is a Nama word for outsider, and the Bushmen themselves dislike it, preferring Bushman. I'm pretty sure that if we had a page about the "Indians" rather than "Native Americans", we'd get quite a backlash from some sections of the aboriginal American population. thefamouseccles 00:36 1 Dec 2003 (UTC)

More PC baloney -- native americans are fine with being called Indians now, as anyone who has lived in the US for the last 10 years knows. In the media they call themselves Indians and never raise a fuss about it if anynoe else does. After five hundred years of being Indians the change to Native American didn't stick.

I wouldn't object to referring to them as Roma as it's now considered more PC, but to say that they have never referred to themselves as Gypsies is absolute rubbish. I've known hundreds of Spanish Gypsies that have never referred to themselves as anything but gitanos, the Spanish equivalent of Gypsies.

India

I know about a Roma legend that says that they simply fled India in front of foreign occupation, to avoid being slaughtered. Shouldn't this be mentioned along 'great mysteries of history'? Also, last year in Belgrade there was a concert of a band from India (called "Raja" if I recall well) that played "traditional Roma music". Now, the article says that there are no Roma in India... Nikola 06:32, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)

The source for this is an expedition undertaken by a writer who was accompanied by a British gypsy through Iraq, Iran, Afganistan, Pakistan and India. East of Iran no one recognizable by the gypsy as gypsies was encountered although there were people in Afganistan who resembled Roma. It is well known that India is the origin of the Roma, but there just is no one in India that answers to the description or lives the Roma lifestyle. If there is tell us about it. Fred Bauder 06:14, 20 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Romania

In Romania they are refered as "tzigani", but this is more a derogatory term. I heard that in their language (Roma) means "man good for nothing", but I have no sure source. After communism fall, it was somehow offially imposed to call them rrom/rroms (with 2 r).

Caravans

"...continue their nomadic lifestyle traveling in caravans (small trailer homes), but..."

Really ? The stereotype I see on TV is that gypsies travel in "caravans (a group of several horse-drawn wagons travelling together)".

Note that television stereotypes only have a coincidental relationship with reality... Very, very few Roma still use horse-drawn caravans, due to the difficulties of finding grazing land in much of Western Europe, the slow pace, the limited facilities. Those who do still travel (again a minority of Roma, I believe) use car/lorry-drawn caravans (the trailer sort - 'caravan' having a slightly different meaning in the US than the UK where I'm from) and maybe motorhomes. -- Aleph

Languages

As I was reading wikitravel (for example, http://wikitravel.org/en/article/Paris ), I thought -- how appropriate that the #2 language on a travel website is *not* the #2 language spoken by people on the internet, but the language spoken by the nomadic Roma.

But now I'm not so sure -- is the "Română" language mentioned there really the Romanian language spoken in the country of Romania ? Is that the same or different from the "Calé ... Romany" language (Romany_language) spoken by the nomadic Roma and Sinti ?

The page you are referring to is in Romanian. — Miguel 19:07, 2004 Oct 24 (UTC)

Of course not. Romany is derived from an Indian language. Romanian is derived from Latin. Fred Bauder 11:09, 21 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Meaning of "Roma"

Mihai, Roma does NOT mean "man good for nothing" in Romany (the language of the Roma). I mean, who would call themselved "good for nothing"?? Roma is the plural of Rom and in Romany means "men" or "people."

I do believe he was talking about Tsigani meaning that in Romany. --gcbirzan 10:33, 25 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Parents selling their kids

I've always heard the story that parents sell their bad kids to Gypsies. Now, that's probably not true. But, what's the origin of that story?

That's one of a huge number of folk stories and myths that have grown up around the Roma over the centuries. It's similar to the (false, of course) medieval idea that Jews went round poisoning wells. It would probably be difficult to pin down the exact origins of a story like the one you mention. — Trilobite (Talk) 21:06, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I heard that story in Romania too. When you have a bad kid you tell him you will give him to the Gypsies. Actually you tell the kid you won't offer your protection anymore. It's just a weird "educational" method. One reason can be the fact that the Gypsies are always travelling, buying and selling diferent things.

Sinti and Roma

I'm a Sinti woman myself and I live in Germany. And all I can say it is true we don't like to be called Gypsies because it is a discrimination for us. Some people here still look very strange when I tell them that I'm a Sinti like I wouldn't speak German or something like that.

Discrepancy

On the one hand, this article says, "It is virtually impossible to identify Roma still living in India." And yet, there is an entire section divoted to similar bands of peoples in Northern India. This discrepancy should be addressed.

Article moved

Why has this article been moved with no explanation? And why has all mention of the Sinti been removed? If there is a reason, please explain. Rmhermen 00:39, Apr 4, 2004 (UTC)

Sinti has a separate article. Would you like to have an article English and Americans ? Mikkalai 02:49, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I have yet again moved the article (SORRY!!). I believe this version to be more of the liking of the majority. --Cantus 03:15, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)

But this article says that Sinti are a tribe of Roma! There is a quote just above from a Sinti who didn't find the previous combination strange. The Sinti article has a question on the talk page asking why it is not integrated here. This is a mess. The people section doesn't mention Eastern Europe except the Balkans. And the immigration to North American isn't covered -not even on Timeline of Roma history which completely contradicts the "Indian connection" section on this page (look at the dates). The page we link to says the four tribes are "Kalderash, the Machavaya, the Lovari, and the Churari"; we say 3 tribes - Kalderash, Gitanos, Manush (called Sinti). (The linked page gives "other groups include Romanichal, the Gitanoes (Calé), the Sinti, the Rudari, the Manush, the Boyash, the Ungaritza, the Luri, the Bashaldé, the Romungro, and the Xoraxai.) Other term we haven't explained include Vlach (Vlax), Ludar (Ursari), Romnichels (Rom'nies), Machwaya. Rmhermen 03:28, Apr 4, 2004 (UTC)

A thought - should the article perhaps mention some of the Romanes words in order to make the talk of Romani subgroups more clear? It might be useful to explain how the Kalderash, Lovari, Machavaya and Churari are all Vlach/Vlax Rom, then you've got the Sinti, Romanichal and Gitanos at a similar level of organisation (ie biggest scale). Then come what the article call 'tribes', but in Romanes and academia are known as 'natsia' - the subdivisions of Vlach Roma into Kalderash, Machvaya, Lovari and Churari. Mentioning the 'kumpania' (a unit who travel and live together) and 'familia' (extended family) would also be worthwhile (these might be specifically Vlax terms - I'm not familiar with other groups so'm not certain). -- Aleph

Another problem. This page says that "Roma" is correct only in the Machwaya dialect of Romany. Other dialects use "Rom" as singular and plural. Rmhermen 03:43, Apr 4, 2004 (UTC)

This is stated in the article: Most Roma refer to themselves by one generic name, Rom (meaning “man” or “husband”) --Cantus 03:46, 4 Apr 2004 (UTC)

But the article is at Roma not Rom. Rmhermen 04:17, Apr 4, 2004 (UTC)

Largest minority

I removed the claim that the Roma are the "largest minority in Europe" since it is not clear what it means and I can't see in what sense it can be true. It clearly can't be literal (eg. people of the male gender are a minority in Europe!). Not can it mean "ethnic minority", since the Slavs, for example, are a far larger minority of Europeans. In the common sense of "people who are in a cultural minority in the area in which they live", I would imagine that they are outnumbered by Muslims, even in predominantly non-Muslim countries of Europe. If there is a sense in which it is true, by all means put it back with some clarification! Cambyses 06:19, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I would have said "largest non-Caucasian minority in Europe" but when I check our article on Caucasian I find that I am using a North American definition of Caucasian and that the other definition includes Turks (the second largest minority) and probably even Roma as Caucasian. Rmhermen 13:06, Apr 21, 2004 (UTC)

For what its worth, given that the population of Istanbul alone is estimated between 11 and 15 million, I think there must be more Turks than Roma in Europe, too.... Cambyses 14:27, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)

That would require a definition of Europe which included Turkey. Rmhermen 23:01, Apr 21, 2004 (UTC)

Istanbul is definitely in Europe. You're right that Asia Minor (which forms most of Turkey by area) is not usually considered European, but there is a small part of Turkey on the Western side of the Bosphorus strait, which is as much a part of Europe as neighbouring Greece and Bulgaria. That is where Istanbul is located. Cambyses 01:46, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Economic and crime discussion

I think the discussion of crime and economic factors should be expanded, as it's a rather complex issue. The article makes it sound like it's simply a discriminatory myth that "gypsies" are thieves, but it's actually a fact that in many areas, especially tourist-filled areas, Roma women and even (or perhaps especially) children make up a large proportion of the pickpockets, as well as engaging in somewhat deceptive and aggressive "marketing practices" like thrusting items into peoples' hands and then demanding payment. This is partly due to the fact that there are few economic opportunities in modern European society for nomadic peoples, and fewer still for people who aren't of the majority ethnicity (many Spaniards would prefer not to hire Roma, for example). People being surrounded by groups of "gypsy children", some of whom distract the tourist while the others steal a wallet, are fairly common in Rome, Seville, and even some cities in Greece. --Delirium 09:26, Jun 13, 2004 (UTC)

This article has been sacrificed at the altar of gypsy PC. Gypsies are not just nomadic, they often absolutely refuse to work a steady job as it's "against their religion".

I can see American tourists reading this article and going to Europe and thinking "aaahhh what beautiful little roma children gathering around me, they are harmless I hear, just discriminated against....hey, where's my wallet!"

I agree--it's a well-attested fact that gypsies/Roma/whatever are often thieves. This shouldn't be glossed over.

Enlightened Spanish King?

Article mentions "an enlightened Spanish king" who tried to forcibly integrate Roma into the mainstream. Can we have a name, or maybe a reference? adoarns 19:28, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

here is google's top hit for Carlos III gitanos'. — Miguel 17:39, 2004 Sep 12 (UTC)

This link is a brief history of the persecution of the Gypsies in Spain. I'll turn it into a section of the article later, unless someone else beats me to it. — Miguel 17:47, 2004 Sep 12 (UTC)

Furthermore, if true this is not "full integration", it's "forced assimilation", and I am editing accordingly. No citation on what king, I have no idea if it's true, I just don't want to see the word integration abused. -- Jmabel 07:17, Sep 11, 2004 (UTC)

I agree with you. Although I did not write that paragraph I think i can offer an explanation.

"Enlightened" refers to the historical period known as The Enlightenment. I would guess that the article refers to Charles III of Spain, but I am not sure. These kings were also called "enlightened despots", something like the more modern phrase "benevolent dictator".

The Enlightened Kings and their ministers were generally forward-thinking and well-meaning, but absolutely socially and culturally insensitive. They thought they could solve social problems with a stroke of the legislative pen, but more often than not their reforms created new problems in place of the old ones. It is entirely possible that they could not see the difference between social integration and cultural assimilation and would not have understood it if it had been explained to them. In fact, before the 20th century very few people, including anthropologists, understood that difference, and even today Western European countries with large immigrant populations have trouble achieving integration without assimilation.

— Miguel 17:28, 2004 Sep 12 (UTC)

POV

Romanians are especially embarrased by Romas traveling abroad, leading parasitic lives and recommending themselves as Romanians. For example in the early 90s numerous Romas used to travel to Western European cities and pose as victims of the Romanian communist regime and heroes of the Revolution - in fact just a ploy for begging.

This needs POV, at least. Rmhermen 03:29, Oct 20, 2004 (UTC)

Ziehende Gäuner

The German name Zigeuner is believed to be derived from Ziehende Gäuner, which means 'travelling thief'.

I think that's wrong. Zigeuner probably is derived from tzigane, a term which is also used by Slavs, Romanians, etc. Most likely the term borrowed by Germans from the east, as the Balkan people met them before the Germans. Bogdan | Talk 19:07, 25 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Gypsy = Pejorative

I disagree with AndyL's comment, "it's either pejorative or it's not. "known to them pejoratively" is a nonsensical statement" and with the respective edit. The original statement was quite accurate.

The term "Gypsy" (in Romanian: "ţigan") is the common/traditional word used to name the Rroma in Romania. In itself the word does not have a pejorative meaning. It may be used in a pejorative manner by people who believe that gypsies are a primitive, inferior people, but the name of ANY people can be used in this manner; the word "ţigan" is mostly used bona fide to identify members of the Rroma community.

However the Rroma themselves strongly dislike being called "ţigani". They use the word themselves as an insult to other Gypsies, or sometimes as a self-deprecating way to address their own people. In a way the word is similar to nigger, which is safely used by African Americans in reference to themselves but is seen as an insult if used by non-blacks - another example of word which has a pejorative meaning only in some contexts. FlorinI 22:40, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I think you are making sweeping generalisations as to how Roma people address one another. To introduce the African American/nigger terminology in this argument is frankly unhelpful at best. In my experience in Slovak and Czech Roma ghettoes, Roma refer to themselves both as Roma and Cigani quite interchangeably. Fieldworkers in these hamlets would also use both terms, since they were living amongst a people using both terms. In no way was this detrimental, necessarily. As far as regards the use of the two 'r's in the word 'Rroma', this has not caught on yet as widely as many believe. I would have to say that its importance strikes me highly academic and would little interest many of the Roma I have met. Having said that, it would certainly help research in the Roma field, since internet searches on Roma are likely to bring up a lot of irrelevant material relating to the city in Italy.

Sweeping generalisations? I clearly speak about gypsies in Romania.

And the two R's are important, also in Romania. There is confusion between the name of the country () and the Roma people. Romanians prefer the 'Rroma' spelling which lowers the risk of confusion. FlorinI 22:11, 5 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Sinhalese

I removed this line pending verification: "(although a recent study published in nature suggests romany is related to Sinhalese)"

A search of the Nature website did not get any hits for Sinhalese or Sinhala. I didn't find anything on Google either. Rmhermen 17:14, Nov 1, 2004 (UTC).

I'added the link ,paper shows romani nearest neighbour is Sinhalese (shares a common root),of course it is still related to Indic languages.

Population

• "Estimates suggest that there are between approximately 5 and 10 million Roma worldwide. As many as 6 to 8 million Roma live in Europe."

I need not point out what's wrong with the above, but does anyone have a source for the correct numbers or a source with an explination of the contradiction? Hyacinth 02:06, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I just saw it too. I'm going to reword it to be more logical, but I don't have a source either. --zandperl 00:40, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

Those figures may be true for 1 century ago... Only in Europe there are 10 million - consider that Romania alone has more than 2 million, and one of the major "problems" when Romania enters the EU is the Gypsy overpopulation. Other countries having between 600,000 and 1 million are Hungary, former Czechoslovakia, Russia, former Yugoslavia, Bulgaria and Spain. In the Americas, Argentina has about 400,000, Brazil more or less the same, Mexico about 300,000, the USA may have about 500,000. These figures don't consider the Domari (Roma of the Arab countries), that amount to about 6 million, which makes worldwide Romany population over 20 million. Including the Luri of Iran and Uzbekistan (though they cannot be considered fully Roma), the number is even larger. Notice: there are not Roma in India nor Pakistan...

Yet, even though I corrected the figures, the "boss" editor goes on replacing the correct information with the prehistoric data!

Porrajmos

Why is there no section on the fate of the Roma during the Nazi Final Solution?

There is one paragraph in the middle of the Rejection section. Rmhermen 02:55, Dec 4, 2004 (UTC)

And a full article at Porajmos. Trilobite (Talk) 21:10, 27 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Origin of "Gypsy"

What is the etymological source of the word? In the text, there is the idea that it was "derived from Egypt" and some paragraphs later it is said to be derived "of the term gyp, meaning cheat". If it is not sure, which one is correct, maybe they should be mentioned at the same position. But I don't know. Someone got an etymological encyclopedia by the hand?

I think it's clear that "Gypsy" drived from "Egypt" to describe the people and, subsequently, "Gyp" dervied from "Gypsy" as slang for "cheat". AHands 00:24, 28 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Rom(a)/Rrom(a) mention

I've removed the following sentence from the article:

However, some countries, such as Romania, use the official name rom or rrom to refer to these people.

Not only did it not belong there, but it was also inaccurate. some countries, like all their citizens, or what? I agree the "official" name is "Rroma", but it was my understanding all Rroma were asking for a move to that.

Roma/Rroma

The page should be moved back to Roma (people). No matter how correct or politicaly correct the Rrname may be, per Misplaced Pages naming policy we should use the common name. --Wikimol 10:35, 9 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Roma (people) are not Romanian (people)

hi all, i think this confusion between Roma (people) and Romanians should be addressed in this article. I mean, in Romania it is a well known that unfortunate episode with Petite Robert (dictionary), who made this confusion between Romanian and Romany and published a picture of a group of Tsigany (aka Gypsies, aka Roma (people)) to illustrate the Romanian language article ; it is also well known the damage for the image of Romania that the gypsy immigrants in UK caused since 1990, owed to this confusion "Romania - country of the Roma (people)" ; as a matter of fact, you can witness right here on Misplaced Pages, on Romania and Romanians articles talk pages that there are people that were sincerely in error about this Roma vs. Romanians thing -- Criztu 15:35, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The article already says "There is no relationship between the names Roma, Rroma and Romany/Rromany, and the country of Romania or the city of Rome (Roma in Italian and Latin)." Rmhermen 15:49, Feb 10, 2005 (UTC)

I have personally met a lot of Romanian Gypsies in several European cities and now think of Romania as a country full of outstanding musicians. If I ever made a trip to Romania it would be for that reason. Yannis

Do you think that Romanian immigrates have abetter behaviour than Roma immigrates? Just read the news in any EU paper!

New additions

I removed the new additions from the article so that they can be cleaned up, verified and integrated into the article:

In 1322 a monk on Crete makes note of this people, with their nomadic nature and large tents, and records shows them on Cyprosten years later. In the 1340's the Black Deathcomes to Europe and Roma in Serbia was blamed for the plauge. 1418 the Roma arrives in Colmar, France, where their large numbers causes some wondering. 1505 they are reportet in both Scotland and Scandinavia. 1525, Charles V Holland demands that all "egyptians" shall leave the land within two days and Gustav Vasa, King of Sweden demands that all Roma is driven from the land. 1560 bishop Laurentius Petri demands that no preist shall baptize their childern or bury their dead. The arrival of the Roma in England is not reported, but in 1530 Henry VII forbids transport of Roma to the county, under the punishment of death.

In 1544 the english Roma is evicted from England and left in boats that is stranded outside the coast of Norway. In 1594 the Roma is declared to have no rights and prosecution is starting to spread. In 1596, 106 men and women are sentenced to death in York on the fact that they are Roma, but only 9 are executed as the rest could prove that their was born in England. 1619, Philip III orders that Roma should leave Spain within 6 months, both clothing and language is forbidden under the penalty of death. Sweden passes laws against the Roma in Sweden in 1637, stating that all shall leave within a year, and any found after that shall hang, while women and children will be expelled. 1646 in Berne it becomes legal to kill or slay Roma. 1650, Suffolk, England the last execution for being of the Roma is carried out, afterwards they are transported to the Americas. Between 1660-1800 the tribe of Romanichal (Charlie Chaplin was Romanichal) establishes in England, they survive by working for locals that know them. In the 1660's the swedens tries to populate the Karelen with Roma, a area that the finnish have left because it was not possible to substain theirself. In Norway there are regular hunts after 1710, where armed mobs are led by officals looking for Roma's. In one case, noble court members in Rheindalenafter a failed boar hunt, found a Roma woman with a childen which they then hunted instead, with the local landlord adding the woman and a child as hunting kills in his book.

The Roma was procuted by the Nazi's by the same extent as the jews, being labeled as sub-humans. In Norway, it was still common to sterilize Roma children and taking them from their parents well into the 1950's.

Rmhermen 15:46, Feb 15, 2005 (UTC)

commonly known as Gypsies

The Roma people are commonly known as Gypsies in English.

ok, the overwhelming majority of Gypsies live in Europe, more exactly in Central and South-East Europe, where they are commonly and collectively known as Tsigany. Gypsy refers more exactly to "nomads", not to the people commonly known as Tsigany, and this term is specific to and "common" only in Britain.

what formulation contains more information  :

• "The Roma people are commonly known as Gypsies" ? which aplies for Britain and other english speaking countries, but where there are very few Rroma people, or
• "The Roma people are commonly known as Tsigany" ? which aplies for Central-South-East Europe where the overwhelming majority of the Rroma people live

It should definitely be the first one. For an English language encyclopedia, gypsy is by for the most common name. I've never heard of Tsigany. It's true that "gypsy" can sometimes mean anybody with a wandering lifestyle, but I think most educated people are aware that it's an ethnic group. - Nat Krause 08:01, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

what term is most "commonly known ..." ? the Tsigany, or the Gypsy ? -- Criztu 17:55, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

The Rroma people are not commonly known as Tsigany *in English*, which is presumably what's meant. That word is pretty much unknown to English speakers and it's doubtful whether it could be called an English word. The word Roma (one R) is now quite often used by people worried that gypsy' migt be offensive or politically incorrect, but not Tsigany. Yes, there are very few Rroma in Britain, but when they're referred to (for example arriving as asylum seekers) they're lumped together in people's minds with all other kinds of "gypsy". Flapdragon 15:42, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

tracing back the word Roma

• The word "Roma" may be traced to an older word describing a specific caste of nomadic singers in India (due to their caste their equivalents in India are generally not well accepted either).

pls provide evidence/reference to that older word from which the word Roma evolved. i could say The word "Roma" may be traced to an older word designating the citizens of the Roman Empire. After the fall of the Eastern Roman Empire the gypsies adopted the word Roma to associate themselves with the glory that was the Eastern Roman EMpire (Byzantine Empire). see what I mean ? -- Criztu 12:21, 27 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Rroma Society

It's odd that such a long article has practically nothing to say about Rroma lifestyle, such as social and economic behavior, considering that this, along with their mysterious history, is generally regarded as by far the most interesting aspect of the subject. - Nat Krause 08:01, 15 Apr 2005 (UTC)

picture with "Roma people in Transylvania" weird

i have an awkward feeling when i look at that picture in the beginning of the Roma article. instead of having a contemporary picture of a real Roma representative, i see a "salad" of things misleading:

• what is the relevance of Transylvania in that picture ?
• how accurate are the costumes of the people depicted in that drawing ? cuz the clothes in this picture looks like romanian traditional costumes, not like the tsiganes costumes.
• there is a guy in that drawing that could easily be Jesus, and i seen tsiganes and this is not their characteristic physical appearance.
• who is the author of that drawing, cuz i couldn't find any reference to him.

I propose to remove this picture and put a contemporary, or at least an accurate picture of the tsiganes/gypsy/roma people when it comes to their costumes and physical appearance. -- Criztu 12:25, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

The detailsof the picture can be found on its Wikicommons image page:

"Illustration from the book "TRANSYLVANIA", by Charles Boner, published by LONGMANS, GREEN, READER, AND DYER, in London, 1865. Scanned by University of Washington. Woodcuts engraved by Mr. G. Pearson."

If the image is inaccurate, romanticised or whatever, it might be interesting to point that out and retain it in a less prominent position. It might shed some light on (say) 19th-century conseptions/portayals of Rroma people. The again it might be that this is in fact a reasonably accurate portrayal of people in that time and place. We would need an authoritative opinion (which you may have) before making any drastic decisions. Flapdragon 15:48, 1 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Roma Genetics

Since I seem to be the only one of (two) who is adding to this section ,a have to say any errors due to the interpretation of the genetic sources are my own.

dubious edits by 62.94.91.238 and 217.222.166.25

These two people suggest Roma people do not come from India but from Mezopotamia and are Semitic, not Indoeuropeans. They do not provide sources, only vague sentence as "Today such theories are discredited".

I have certain doubt of reliability of these edits, especially when 62.94.91.238 added in sentence "There is another Roma representant at the European parliament for the Czech Republic". which is wrong.

Could someone more knowledgeable take a look? Pavel Vozenilek 20:08, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Well, if you still believe in the Indian origin, you are not updated with the latest scholarly research...

Sorry, you have to cite your sources - "latest scholarly research" is a weasel word. It doesn't prove anything unless you give us specific research.

The question on origins

Concerning the conventional theory that Roma are originated in India, it is based exclusively on language. It's important to notice that language is not a good parameter; for example, Jews have spoken either Yiddish, Ladino or Aramaic for centuries, and on linguistic basis, one must assume that they were three different peoples of Germanic, Spanish or Babylonian origin, which is undoubtedly false. Today most Roma do not speak Romany, but other languages. Instead of language, the psychologic features, traditions and culture are by far more relevant, and it is clearly evident that there is not any Indian cultural factor among Roma. If they were actually of Indian origin, some remnants of Indian beliefs and philosophies must be traceable, but as a matter of fact, not the slightest trace of Indian psychology, culture or belief exists among Roma. There is not any trace of belief in reincarnation among Roma. If they were of Indian origin, they would have at least attempted to return back to their alleged homeland, but they did not. Roma do not feel attracted by Indian culture. On the contrary, they feel quite identified with Semitic cultures. They have many characteristics that attest their Mesopotamian origin before they settled (or were exiled) in India. To assert that Roma are of Indian origin is offensive towards Roma! (not because of racial prejudices against Indians, but simply because Roma feel rejection towards Indian customs).

The problem cannot be understood by "Gadje", since they cannot know Romany spirit...

DON'T REMOVE OTHER PEOPLE'S COMMENTS! Thank you. ;-) bogdan ʤjuʃkə | 20:26, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I see, the only one that can remove everything is Mr. Pavel Vozenilek...

Tu san Rom? Anda savi rig san? Le gažengi?

This is an encyclopedia, we're not supposed to take any sides, but only present the facts using a NPOV (Neutral Point of View) bogdan ʤjuʃkə | 21:06, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

But you are taking the side of somebody, instead of being neutral.

I'm just asking for a reference, i.e. a scholarly published work that writes about it, because Misplaced Pages also has a No original research policy. bogdan ʤjuʃkə | 21:23, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I've given scholarly published references and were immediatley deleted, because they don't fit the mind of the "boss" holding this article. Actually, the article is based on a purely speculative theory that has not been tested or proven by historic records. Even the origin of the Indians is still under dispute!

If you don't know Romany culture and psychology, it's normal that you won't understand... And those Gadje that think they know everything about Roma, don't want Roma to express their own opinion...

About (mis)spelling

A frequent error is to write "Rroma" instead of the correct way Roma. Such spelling was invented by Mr. Marcel Courthiade, but never accepted by Roma. The official international alphabet, approved by Roma intellectuals, consists in diacritics added to the common alphabet, which can be seen at: http://www.sweb.cz/ls78/diacritics.htm under the title "Romany". Even though Mr. Courthiades is a supporter of the Indian origin theory (precisely, according to his idea, from Uttar Pradesh), he admits that there is not any single people in India related with Roma, and that those allegedly "Roma of India" are just nomadic peoples that during the British occupation were applied the same laws in force agaisnt Gypsies in England, assuming that nomadism is an exclusive feature of Roma. Indeed, it is proven that the Lambadi have nothing to do with Roma, nor any other Indian people.

Mr. Pavel Vozenilek

Are you the owner of truth? As far as I know, you are not the only person having right to edit in Misplaced Pages. In this subject, Roma must have the right to express themselves, or must just accept what the Gadje say about them? I'm a ROM. So san tu? des tu duma Romanes? žanes vare so pala o trayo romanó, pala amaró zakono thay amaró halyarimós? Te sanas Rom, say das duma sar phral, the či san, či halyares so phenav.

Mr. Pavel Vozenilek (2)

Sostar řandes le linkurya ke thodem? Why do you delete the links to websites about Romany culture and history? So you consider that people are stupid that they cannot judge by themselves after reading the different positions. If you disagree with the scholars that have done accurate research just because they say something different from you, you are quite dishonest. If this encyclopaedia has to be neutral, you cannot hinder others to write, and much less delete the external links.

The Communist countries issue

There is another (of the many) errors published and re-published in this article, asserting that Roma underwent pressure and discrimination in the USSR, and that "Romany language was forbidden", which is utterly false. As every ethnic group, Roma had their culture and language recognized by the State (or perhaps I've been living in a dreamworld for years??) and there was no such prohibition. Perhaps the author has some political bias, what causes the addition of crimes not committed to the hatred subject. This is not a pro-Soviet claim, it's simply an expression of what really happened. Perhaps the editors must pay a visit to the Romen Theatre of Moscow to learn that the Communist Russia instituted it as well as other Romany cultural centres. Roma in Western Europe had surely not a better life than in the Communist bloc!

• Old requests for peer review