As pointed out above, I don't believe Dlabtot placed the tag that you're referring to. And even if he did, accusing someone of being a sockpuppet (if it isn't relevant to the current discussion) and stating that they "...are failing miserably..." (as in this diff: ) is possibly not the best response possible (see WP:CIVIL). And I don't believe that a listing here constitutes an attack, perhaps someone else can comment on that. --Bfigura 03:52, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps, for perspective, it might be helpful to take a look at a couple of other recent diffs, not directed at me: diff, diff. Dlabtot 03:57, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps for perspective the reader will note that the poster I'm responding to is making assumptions about my motives and or state of mind with no relevant evidence to back up those assumptions. Your turn. William (Bill) Bean 04:05, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I did not directly call Dlabtot a sock-puppet. Please review the posts again. I said the tag without explanation smacked of sock-puppetry. It's not the same thing whether you realize it or not. The presence of sock-puppets and trolls here at wikiedia is always relevant; always. Finally, if Dlabtot had not thrown the original tag he never denied it. Had he or she denied it I would have reviewed the diffs again. By the way this is a brilliant tactic for setting someone up. Your turn. William (Bill) Bean 04:03, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

You've got a point. The other day, a guy said my Mom looked like, and acted like, a whore, but since he didn't actually *call* my mother a whore, I figured he was actually being civil, so I let it slide. Dlabtot 04:11, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

This really isn't a debate. The point of WQA is to suggest that while you may (and I'm neither taking a position for or against) be correct in that Dlabtot tagged without posting posting on the talk pages, it is not appropriate to respond by calling someone a troll, or a sock-puppet, or a failure. If you feel someone is violating policy, then the right thing to do is notify them (politely). If they don't respond in a manner that's constructive, then follow dispute resolution, or try and establish a consensus on the talk page in question. Inflammatory language won't get anyone anywhere. Best, --Bfigura 04:18, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Hmm.. I'm not convinced that a back-and-forth argument is going to be terribly productive. May I suggest that we place this matter on hold so that other WQA responders may comment? --Bfigura 04:22, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Show me where I called Dlabtot a troll. I didn't. Instead of responding to criticism positively or appropriately he or she has made excuses, claimed ignorance, and "begged for forgiveness" without a hint of sincerity. I responded by pointing out why this started in the first place; a violation of[REDACTED] policy. The response was "please stop." This is manipulative and I know it. Now he or she has called upon you to intercede on his or her behalf rather than correcting the behavior that started this. Misplaced Pages is rife with trolls and sock-puppets. It hurts this place. Finally, inflammatory language is entirely up to me. If you don't like it that's your problem not mine. But I did get his or her attention. And I can guarantee you if he or she does the POV without showing cause again (and I'm not banned) this will seem mild. Enough is enough. I welcome input from others. If I feel I'm wrong I'll apologize, but don't hold your breath; it's unlikely. William (Bill) Bean 04:31, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

How do you suggest I 'correct the behavior'? What could I do that would make you happy and end this? Dlabtot 04:37, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Ah, but inflammatory language is not up to you. There's an official civility policy, which specifically lists ill-considered accusations as an avoidable example of incivility, among other things. If someone doesn't like something you've said, and it can reasonably be taken as a violation of WP:CIVIL, then it is your problem. Also, veiled threats (if this will seem mild) fall under incivility as well. I'd suggest previewing your posts first, or reading them out loud, before submitting, as it's entirely possible you don't realize how you might sound (the post above quite shocked me, especially on a page dealing with incivility as its primary purpose.) --Darkwind (talk) 06:10, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Concur -- the irony is somewhat staggering. As this doesn't look as though it will go anywhere in this forum, I've marked the complaint as stuck and fowarded it on to AN/I. --Bfigura 13:19, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Moved from my talk page. William (Bill) Bean 14:12, 20 September 2007 (UTC) *Regardless of whether your behavior fits the technical definition of a "personal attack", your comments of late have been incivil, both to Dlabtot and to Bfigura. Demanding that people follow procedure, or make apologies, is not a very good way of interacting with other editors, and not conductive to a pleasant atmosphere. I'd suggest that you refrain from such behavior in the future. >Radiant< 13:39, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Just a note for clarity, the above comment was directed at William (Bill) Bean. --Bfigura 14:16, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I have been consistently on point about my issue with the tags. I have repeated these points numerous times. They have been ignored. I have never made an issue about the reason for the tag, rather the lack of a reason. Worse, rather than take my issues at face value and address them, I have been accused of having other motives. Since I have not brought up any other issue with the tags the motives attributed to me are fabrications. I find that insulting. As I said I have been on point from the very beginning. From the talk page on the article in question.

"Considering that you have listed numerous reasons that you believe the section is not WP:NPOV, I hope you will now follow Misplaced Pages policies and refrain from removing the tag until a consensus to do so has been reached here on the talk page. Dlabtot 21:40, 19 September 2007 (UTC)"

I have listed only one reason why I felt the POV tag was invalid; that being no reason was given for throwing the tag in the first place. Additionally I found the assumption on Dlabot's part both insulting and groundless. Again, my issue is with throwing tags without explanation. Further, Dlabtot is not the only poster who jumped to a conclusion as to my motives with no supporting evidence.

Please see . My concern is now and has been for years the following; attempts by various parties to kill information, hacked articles, bias, and opinions presented as fact. Finally, I find the attempts at misdirection insulting as well. William (Bill) Bean 14:30, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Addendum: I find it amusing that this section has been moved from Work in progress to stuck in less than twenty-four hours. Interesting no? William (Bill) Bean 14:43, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

• In that thread you state that process wasn't followed in nominating the page for deletion, and start talking about vandalism - whereas it turns out that you were simply looking at the wrong day of the deletion logs. Seems to me that you're jumping to unwarranted conclusions. >Radiant< 15:00, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

First, I stated that throwing a tag without following proper procedure "smacks of vandalism." Please be accurate in relating this situation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wjbean (talk • contribs) 15:20, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

The AFiD tag was thrown on September 18th. For that reason I would expect to find the nomination on the page with that date. I did not. I did look at September 19th and did not find it there either. One poster claimed that the entry appeared on the September 19th page within seconds. I dispute that since I didn't find it. If the entire[REDACTED] community is not aware of a nomination for deletion then the process is flawed and any voting potentially skewed. I jumped to no conclusions. I responded to conditions I can plainly see with my own two eyes. Seems to me you are jumping to your own conclusions. William (Bill) Bean 15:09, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

• According to the edit history, the article was nominated on the 19th, and indeed that's when the nomination page was made, and when said page was added to the logs. All at 04:06. So it would appear, from those logs, that you are simply mistaken. Being mistaken is really not a problem, but attacking others as a result is. >Radiant< 15:24, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I saw the nomination on the 18th. This may have to do with time zones though I thought[REDACTED] used a universal time stamp. William (Bill) Bean 16:05, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

If this "dispute" has been moved to an alternate forum I have a right to know where that forum is. William (Bill) Bean 15:16, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Indeed you do. That's why I gave the link to AN/I above. --Bfigura 15:19, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Since there was a call earlier for other WQA-regulars to comment, I'll say that User:Wjbean has been uncompromising, rude, and unproductive. He has even taken to seeking out other people who've been reported here, to inform them that he suspects a Cabal is out to get him. I'd say we're stuck, unless the user has a change of heart and decides to abide by policies like WP:CIVIL, instead of turning his nose at them, saying "Misplaced Pages has lost its way." --Cheeser1 01:27, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Saying that "a cabal is out to get him" and attributing that to me is a misrepresentation of my note to AussieLegend and I take strong exception to it. That was rude and uncalled for. If you are going to hold me to some standard of civility you should abide by it yourself.

I reviewed the statements he made that brought about an "incivility" charge against him here. Though I found them pointed I did not consider them uncivil. Certainly not remotely as "offensive" as my own. I am simply asking for his opinion on the attitudes around here. The title of the thread, like a newspaper headline, was designed to draw his attention to my question. I am finding that your (collective) attitudes are reminiscent of a lynch mob. I will not back down until I hear from someone who has elected authority. I will abide by whatever decision that authority makes up to and including leaving here permanently. Respectfully (well as much as I can muster) William (Bill) Bean 23:26, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Why is it that everyone who gets reported here seems to wind up hurling complaints at the accuser and/or the WQA volunteers? "Lynch mob"?? Are you serious?? That's probably a more absurd thing than a "cabal." Nobody on Misplaced Pages has "elected authority" - this is not a democracy. Certainly not on the WQA, where regular volunteers and other community members attempt to resolve conflicts. We abide by policies on Misplaced Pages, and when people step out of line, the community steps in to help resolve it. You have apparently violated some policies. My saying so does not meant that I'm out to get you (not to attack, lynch, or cabal-ify you), and reporting your behavior does not constitute a personal attack. If you don't want to be accountable for what you say, don't say it. You are soliciting help from other users who've been reported here, in order to mount resistance against cooperating, against abiding by policy. That's something definitely worth mentioning here. And I'm sorry, but lashing out at people is not how you settle these complaints against you. You should stop it. --Cheeser1 00:55, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

The only recognized authority on Misplaced Pages, in the sense you seem to be referring to (someone or someones who will make a binding decision), is the Arbitration Committee. If you feel that you need to open an ArbCom case to settle this matter, feel free; but there exists no "greater authority" of WQA who will come in and settle this. Misplaced Pages just doesn't generally work that way. ArbCom is generally the last resort of all disputes on Misplaced Pages, and I really don't think this has reached that point.

Also, please consider that if several people who are uninvolved in a matter say the same thing about your behavior regarding that matter, it just might be true. Referring to "lynch mobs" and "cabals" and so forth just smacks of paranoia, and reduces the impact of whatever reasoned argument you might be trying to make at the time. --Darkwind (talk) 01:58, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

User:Wwefan980

Wwefan980 (talk · contribs) made this edit to the Sandbox. I chided him with this, which I thought was a civil reminder. He replied by blanking the comment and putting in this edit summary. I replied with a reminder to be civil, to which he replied with this. I thought my comments were proper, and would like a second opinion. Corvus cornix 23:04, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Your own comments were perfectly in-line with policy and Wikiquette; although your second comment on his talk page was a bit… terse. His replies were definitely out of line. As a normal part of the WQA process, I'd leave him a note reminding him of the proper application of WP:CIVIL, but you mentioned you primarily wanted an opinion on your own comments. Shall I ping him and see what happens? --Darkwind (talk) 02:16, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

If you don't mind. I don't want to escalate this, so I don't feel I should make any further comments to him. Corvus cornix 03:04, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I've left him a message and watchlisted his talk page. --Darkwind (talk) 18:30, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I've commented a little, but this user seems to take anything as an attack. Asking him to be civil is uncivil, according to him, and thus justification for him to retaliate ("They were rude first"). He's also baiting people to incite edit warring (see here) and threatening to report those of us who are intervening (to whom, ourselves?). --Cheeser1 19:11, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

It's WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT taken to an extreme. --Darkwind (talk) 19:18, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

This is also extraordinarily troubling. I think these two may need more than some constructive criticism from the WQA. This is out of line too. --Cheeser1 00:35, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

AussieLegend

I'm having trouble editing the page Exetel with AussieLegend. The incivility, rude tone, and personal attacks are rife in his posts on the Exetel talk page and my own talk page. His approach to editing seems overly confrontational and defensive. I've tried to be civil and helpful, but this tends to aggravate him more. He's had trouble with other users on the page before, to the point of a conflict mediation. I'm not sure what else to do? Thanks for all the help! Sсοττ5834 16:59, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi Scott - could you provide some diffs in which you think this user's behaviour has been problematic? Thanks, Sarcasticidealist 17:55, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Sure thing! They're right below in roughly chronological order:

• Not assuming good faith
• civility
• civility, assuming good faith, etc.
• more civility, name calling
• and even more civility

There's more (especially toward other users), but that's a sample. Sсοττ5834 18:50, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi Scott - thanks for the diffs. This case appears to have some context that I'd need in order to fully understand it, so I'm going to ask User:AussieLegend to provide a statement about his perspective on this before I take it any further. Hopefully, once that's done, we can get both of you on the same page and working constructively together. Sarcasticidealist 01:06, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

A glance at Talk:Exetel appears to show a content dispute raging since 2006 about how critical the article should be about Exetel's policies, notability of Exetel's doings, and adequate referencing for statements about Exetel. The requirement that well-sourced content should not be removed except due to a Talk page consensus might have some value. Since this is a rather short article, and even in confusing situations it should be possible to neutrally state the various opinions, it's not clear why a compromise version can't be agreed upon. EdJohnston 01:20, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I've experienced this "user" before. It's almost impossible to get anything done to the Exetel article, any good faith edits (with newspaper articles) are reverted because of "vandalism" (with the people who write the articles on the news sites being called hack/fake journalists), you get posted up on administrative/talk page areas as being a bad user, and then his squad of sock-puppets/extremely close "friends" then come in to back him up with page after page of rules-lawyering (and despite them being very new users with few edits, they have a in-depth knowledge of wiki-rules/guidelines) as soon as you leave for more than a few days they attempt to claim "consensus" (I've had to argue consensus with him and his "friends" who come out and say they don't think it deserves to be in an article.. how can someone argue consensus with people who don't want anything? Impossible) and move to have the page locked. His account is basically a single use account (as it was when I was trying to make the exetel article accurate) posing as an active user, all to prevent truth being posted on the exetel[REDACTED] article. Very sad. Macktheknifeau 06:00, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to apologise in advance about the length of this but I'm trying to provide the full context of what has happened. Because this current issue involves a previous consensus and because Macktheknifeau has decided to weigh in on the issue it is probably appropriate to address Macktheknifeau's actions on the page since they were the catalyst for the mediation, administrator intervention, full protection of the page and the path to consensus. It's all documented at Talk:Exetel but there is a fair bit to read through there and you need to check out the full page history to get the complete story so I'll try to summarise here.

Macktheknifeau is an ex-customer of Exetel. While he was a customer he was banned from the Exetel help forums. Immediately after that event, apparently as a bit of pay-back, he edited the Exetel page and added unverified and false claims. An unregistered IP address then added more unverified and false claims which I reverted, explaining my reasons for doing so on the talk page. Macktheknifeau restored the edits and made some minor edits that corrected one error but none of the rest. Nor did he provide citations for anything. After some minor vandalism by an unregistered IP I cleaned up the edits to make them more factual. Macktheknifeau reverted those edits. He did not "correct" anything, not that anything needed correcting because what I wrote was true, he simply reverted every change including grammatical corrections. It should be pointed out that Macktheknifeau and I were both Exetel customers and active participants in the same threads in the forums on the Whirlpool website so we both knew exactly the same information meaning he must have known that what I wrote was correct so, while it may not have been obvious under the Misplaced Pages definition, I knew what he did was vandalism and tagged it as such when I restored the correct information.

After this other editors joined in. Macktheknifeau immediately accused these editors of being sockpuppets and reverted their edits every time they attempted to edit the page. He also made same other ridiculous claims on the talk page such as claiming that I was an Exetel employee despite knowing full quite well that I am not. (I actually live over Template:Unit km from Exetel's offices) He then suddenly appeared to change his attitude and made an offer to allow the other editors the chance to edit the page without him simply reverting, or so we thought. In reality the offer turned out to be less than genuine as he continued to revert the edits of the other editors despite his offer not to.

Somewhere in all this (the timeline is a bit murky) I opened a mediation case. A few days later Macktheknifeau opened his own case (attempting to hijack mine immediately after doing so) but not before formally accusing all editors who opposed him of being sockpuppets and me of being the puppetmaster. He later withdrew the allegations.

I also approached an Administrator for advice. He protected the page and posted some guidance on the talk page. Eventually consensus was reached by all active editors. It can be seen that all editors except Macktheknifeau agreed that the "Controversy" section, which included discussion of the traffic shaping issue, should not be included in the article. It is clear in the discussion that the active editors at the time consensus was reached all had opposed inclusion of what Scott5834 has tried to include as the "Traffic Shaping section"

We now move to June 2007. Scott5834 edits the article adding information regarding a two year old policy that some writer on an obscure US blog site has just discovered. My thoughts, in a nutshell, were "It's a two year old policy that nobody has ever complained about or even commented on so it's really not worth including in the article". As an Exetel customer I received the original email announcing implementation of the policy. Since then, despite being a member and regular participant/reader of both the Exetel and Whirlpool forums I have never seen anyone even comment on it in either forum except for one instance that I'll get to shortly. The lack of comment at Whirlpool is especially significant. Whirlpool is often called "Whingepool" because so many people there, especially in the Exetel forums, seem to like a good whinge even if there is really nothing to whinge about which, not unexpectedly, is what happened with P2P depriortisation. (I'll address this in more detail later) In short, if people haven't complained about it on Whirlpool nobody really cares about it. With that in mind, if the customers of the ISP really don't care about that policy, why should anyone else especially someone from Texas who will probably never have any association with the ISP. However, this is not my only reason for opposing inclusion of this policy in the article. Another is that realistically you can't put everything in an article. There are lots of ISPs in Australia and none of the articles on Misplaced Pages detail individual policies. In fact, they're not really mentioned. (As an aside I should point out that Exetel isn't even one of the bigger ISPs. It's small compared to several others. Currently it has around 50,000 customers. Compare that to BigPond with over two million) This doesn't mean that policies shouldn't be included but you need to draw a line somewhere. Exetel has policies that all customers are billed on the first of the month, that users get static IPs (unusual in Australia) and that from 1 October 2007 users will have 200MB of webspace. Should these be included? I'd argue that they shouldn't because they really aren't important enough for inclusion. They might be interesting features to somebody thinking of joining Exetel but they're really just filler material. The same is true for the multimedia policy. If the policy is important enough for inclusion then why wasn't it discovered by the US two years ago when it was first announced?

Even when it was finally "discovered" the coverage was insignificant. The post at boing boing, which is somewhat misleading both in title and content, has had zero comments. Scott5834 will argue that comments were only instituted a month ago but I don't know if that's true. Regardless, there have been no comments. He will also argue that it was mentioned at techdirt but that's not actually true. Techdirt mentions the policy as an example of what happens without safe harbour provisions but the policy isn't the focus of the article. Exetel isn't even mentioned. This article is also misleading but that's another issue. Ars technica mentioned it too but apparently that's the extent of the coverage at the time. There was an article in The Age, a Melbourne newspaper, three weeks later but that wasn't related to the boing boing revelation. According to the article the relative of an informant found out one of their multimedia files had gone missing. To put this in the appropriate context you have to understand that the setup information on a user webspace very clearly explains the policy and the simple procedure necessary to avoid deletion. It is reproduced below:

IMPORTANT REQUIREMENT OF USING THIS FACILITY

Exetel has since it began offering ADSL services taken a hard approach to copyright issues; where we believe there is a clear violation of copyright content has been deleted, and in a few cases, directories blocked and 'frozen' pending further investigation by the appropriate law enforcement agency.

Based on the MIPI's actions in March 2005 aganst another ISP (People Telecom) and the actual finding guilty of a second ISP in July 2005 (ComCen), Exetel now believe there is a need to take more direct and pro-active action to monitor content stored on publicly accessible servers under its control.

Effective from 1st April 2005 scripts will be run nightly that will examine all disk content and delete any multimedia content with the extensions mp3, mpg, mpeg, avi, wma and any other multi media file type. Customers wishing to host files with these extensions need to do the following:

1. Email copyright-request@exetel.com.au and request to be excluded from the scan script.

2. State that you agree you are the copyright owner, have permission of the copyright owner or that there is no copyright on the material you want to store.

You can use this text as a template:

To: copyright-request@exetel.com.au
Subject: Please Allow directory for media storage
ADSL line number:
Webspace name:

I advise that I am the copyright owner, have permission of the copyright owner or that there is no copyright on the files I will place in the above directories, and therefore request they be exempt from automatic deletion.

Obviously, the either user didn't read or didn't follow the instructions. Had they done so their files would have been safe and there would probably have been no article. Earlier I mentioned one instance in two years where somebody mentioned the policy. The circumstances of that instance were similar to what happened in the Age article. Somebody didn't follow instructions. People don't follow instructions all the time. Should that be included in Misplaced Pages articles? I'd argue no because not only is it common it's also too trivial for inclusion.

These are the reasons that I opposed inclusion of the information on the multimedia policy. It simply is too trivial an issue.

Earlier I mentioned that people at Whirlpool like to whinge even when there is nothing to whinge about and I cited P2P deprioritisation or, as Scott5834 has called it, "Traffic Shaping". This is yet another example of how something insignificant can be blown out of proportion. This was an issue that was fairly widely reported but that was because people misinterpreted the announcement. The evidence can be seen in the thread at Whirlpool (I don't have a link at the moment) which reached a length of 102 pages simply on the basis of the announcement. The thread was full of doom and gloom before implementation. After implementation it was a far different matter. The thread virtually stopped dead. Only a few comments were added and they were basicly along the lines of "I haven't noticed anything". A separate thread was created asking people to make comment on the issue post-implementation but it too only attracted a few posts. Why? Because it was a big non-event. That alone probably does make it worthy of inclusion but the problem is that we reached consensus and WP:CCC#Consensus can change recommends discussion before changing consensus. I'm not adding it without discussion because WP:CCC#Consensus can change states:

No one person, and no (limited) group of people, can unilaterally declare that community consensus has changed

I simply don't have the right to arbitrarily declare that consensus has changed. Nor does anyone else.

It's important now to look at the actions of Scott5834 since he is questioning mine.

After his initial attempts to add the information failed, and with three editors opposing him, Scott5834 decided that, rather than follow policy he would submit a request for mediation. This was naturally rejected. He then made some rather puzzling claims as well as clearly unjust accusations that reminded me of Macktheknifeau. Since this is already rather long I won't detail them here. I think the relevant section on the talk page speaks for itself.

Despite the fact that I still disagreed with inclusion of the information I decided to seek a compromise and edited the article to include some of what Scott5834 proposed. His response was:

Though the section stills reads a bit glowing (and POV) in my opinion, it still is a great addition. Well done! Scott5834 00:18, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

After posting that he made no further edits on the Exetel page so you can imagine my surprise when, almost 12 weeks later, he started editing the page again, deleting valid information and exaggerating various aspects, most notably in regard to the coverage of the multimedia policy. However, I did not revert his edits. I did remove the section on traffic shaping and suggested he read the talk page discussion regarding that. Instead he immediately reverted my edit and chose to ignore consensus. In the ensuing discussion he started WikiLawyering, citing policy after policy. It also became obvious that "Keep Civil" is his new catch phrase when he doesn't have anything else to respond with. He's used it 5 times so far. Even commenting that despite finding my previous edits "a great addition" he's now seen fit to hack them to pieces resulted in it being used.

Despite the WikiLawyering, when it was pointed out that his own comments and sources breached some of the very policies that he cited he started making excuses in order for his own edits to ignore policy. He seems to expect others to obey policy but believes he should be exempt. For example, a reference to a thread at Whirlpool was presented as a citation for a claim that Exetel customers are unconcerned at the policy. He claims that analysis of the thread posts constitutes original research but when it was pointed out that the techdirt article doesn't mention Exetel and the only way to link Exetel to the article is to examine anonymous comments, thereby making it WP:OR using his own arguments, he claimed that was a stretch of WP:OR.

He has also started feigning ignorance as a way of avoiding addressing an issue. For example he argued that "we shouldn't be looking at notability guidelines to edit the article". (Misplaced Pages:Notability says "These guidelines pertain to the suitability of article topics but do not directly limit the content of articles" indicating that while notability guidelines don't limit the content they are relevant) I responded that I had seen an administrator delete content from an article because of lack of notability. I even supplied a link to a specific page edit with the direction "Check the page history". If you follow the link and check the page history you see that the Administrator's explanation for that edit was "removed non-notable information about cheerleading squad". Scott5834's response was "I see a page about a high school..." There was no acknowledgement that an administrator had done as I said.

And of course the peculiar claims are back combined with heading off on a tangent in order to avoid addressing something. For example, he claimed that one statement regarding Exetel supplying free data in the off-peak period was unverified so I provided a link to a site where 6,863 different plans from 254 different Australian ISPs can be compared. The site in question is used as a source by many organisations including the Australian government, something I pointed out to him. That should have satisfied him but his response was to ask for something better because a newspaper article had "a pretty different take on the "free" bandwidth policy". After pointing out that the article he referenced was about a P2P deprioritisation policy which had nothing to do with the free data (the article doesn't mention the free data at all) he's now claiming that the two are related and the "free" period was implemented at the same time as the P2P deprioritisation program, despite providing no citation to prove those assertions, and yet he expects me to provide citations to prove that the free period has existed for a lot longer. For reference, the article he mentioned is here and a statement from the company CEO confirming the existence of the free period in March 2004 is here. You be the judge.

I think it's fairly obvious that if you're going to edit the content of articles then you should have some knowledge of the subject. You shouldn't just go in blind but Scott5834 has demonstrated with his edits and comments that his knowledge of Exetel is almost non-existent. This is understandable. By his own admission he lives 8000 miles away. He'll probably never have any direct involvement with the ISP so I'm puzzled as to why he'd even bother involving himself in the article especially to the depth that he is. I did ask but he hasn't replied. His only knowledge seems to stem from the boing boing article in June 2007 and the edits he is making are based on misinformation and pure guesswork. It's really not appropriate in my opinion.

One last point I'd like to make really shouldn't need explanation, just revelation.

At 16:16, 20 September 2007 (UTC) Scott5834 posted on the Exetel talk page

At 16:59, 20 September 2007 (UTC) he posted here.

At 02:30, 21 September 2007 (UTC) he was back editing the Exetel article.

So much for letting things simmer down.

Once again I apologise for the length of this but I've always found that if you don't tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth people tend to get bogged down with the facts and innocent men end up on death row. --AussieLegend 22:27, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Like Sarcasticidealist, I look forward to hearing what AussieLegend has to say. When he does join the discussion, I hope he will comment about some of the statements he has made on Talk:Exetel, which do sound like they misunderstand Misplaced Pages policy. For instance, he has removed at least once a statement that Exetel has engaged in a practice called 'traffic-shaping', where P2P transfers are capped at 50% of the rate they would otherwise enjoy. This was a policy announced by Exetel itself that was commented on in Sydney newspapers, so it appears to be well-sourced critical content. However AussieLegend argued, Yes, it did make the newspapers but, as already pointed out, just because something makes the newspapers doesn't make it worthy of inclusion in Misplaced Pages... Though AussieLegend's argument is one that some editors make when they are trying to balance out a lengthy article by dropping unimportant information, this traffic-shaping is hardly a minor issue, it can be stated very briefly, and its truth is well-verified. Its removal seems to make the article more favorable to Exetel, and the overall effect of the removal looks like bias. EdJohnston 09:10, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

As I've explained in the lengthy section above, the decision to remove the reference to traffic shaping was achieved by consensus. Scott5834 just went and put it back in, even after I'd removed it and warned him that he should read the talk page and directed him to WP:CCC#Consensus can change which states:

No one person, and no (limited) group of people, can unilaterally declare that community consensus has changed, or that it is fixed and determined. An editor who thinks there are good reasons to believe a consensual decision is outdated may discuss it on the relevant talk page, through a Request for Comment, or at the Village Pump or Third Opinion to see what points other editors think are important, and to compare and examine the different viewpoints and reasons.

Scott5834 did not attempt to discuss his proposed edits, even after I directed him to WP:CCC#Consensus can change. He just decided that consensus had changed and edited. Had he attempted to discuss the issue as suggested by WP:CCC#Consensus can change there likely would have been a different outcome. --AussieLegend 22:27, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Consensus is determined Misplaced Pages-wide, not just on the Talk page of an individual article. If you choose to disregard settled policy by removing critical information, you need to deal with the body of all Misplaced Pages editors, not just those who work locally. Please provide a justification that all of us will find convincing. In what sense did you make the article better by removing the well-sourced information that Exetel engaged in traffic-shaping? EdJohnston 23:15, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I suggest you read WP:CCC and the discussion on the article's talk page. In removing the edits I was acting to maintain consensus that had been reached in accordance with the instructions of an Administrator. It is up to Scott5834 to discuss the issue before he reapplies edits that consensus had excluded. Whether he discusses the issue at "talk page, through a Request for Comment, or at the Village Pump or Third Opinion" is irrelevant. He needs to discuss it somewhere before doing so. He didn't. He just unilaterally decided that community consensus has changed and included the edits. --AussieLegend 03:12, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Well that was a typical aussielegend post, a huge post with very little actual content that actually deals with the matter at hand. My so called "Unverified" (which were made when I was still an exetel user) facts were taken directly from the Exetel forums, posted by the Exetel Administrator/Owner himself! At the time those posts were still around, and they dealt with in the various news articles I posted on the issue. Of course, some time after, the owner apparently "cooled down" and removed his posts. Of course it was too late by then, as they had been seen by thousands, and reported on in major newspapers (and their websites) as well as smaller tech sites. But apparently this is not verifiable to AussieLegend. At which point he removed them and engaged in the edit war. I like how that apparently his information is the one true gospel, and my information, which was verified with news articles, is vandalisim. Another tactic of his, brand the other person a vandal and that apparently gives himself free reign to remove any of their edits.

This is his strategy. Obfusticate, pile on paragraph after paragraph, over and over until the other people get bored on have to get on with their lives. Of course, he also posted one of the very first edits I made, which were subseqeuently edited by many other people, and then improved to make it more wiki-friendly, with verified articles included. Another tactic. The so called "consensus" was a false consensus reached by a small group of biased editors, instead of via establish wiki principles like I tried to do.

His account is a single use account regardless of any other edits or stated goals. It's sole purpose is to guard the exetel site that has been the accounts goal since practically day one, and bombard anyone who dare edit it with revisionism and lies. I have no idea what would compel someone to do this for so so long, unless they have a vested interest in the company. At the very least, he should be barred from editing the Exetel article. How long before yet another user would end up in the identical situation that both I and scott have both dealt with. Macktheknifeau 02:43, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Several brief comments, although due to the indenting above, I'm not sure who I am addressing. AussieLegend does not appear to be an SPA. (Based on my review of his last 1000 edits). SPA has a rather specific definition, which doesn't appear to be met here. I think you mean Agenda-Pushing, which while bad, isn't the same thing. Also, internet forums are not generally considered to be reliable sources. As far as the rest of the rather lengthy comments above, I haven't had time to review them, so I can't offer an opinion currently. (So this post isn't mean to address anything other than the SPA & verifiability issues). Best, --Bfigura 02:57, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't intend to respond to any of Macktheknifeau's comments other than to address one ridiculous comment that Bfigura has addressed.

His account is a single use account regardless of any other edits or stated goals.

I have made 1,431 edits on Misplaced Pages of which 837 are mainspace edits. Of those, only 45 (<5.4% of mainspace edits) have been on the Exetel article. That's hardly "a single use account" and the accusation has as much validity as the other unsubstantiated accusations that Macktheknifeau has made. --AussieLegend 03:18, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

If you use a more accurate representation, and take all out all his talk pages, and include edits related to his guardianship of the exetel article (including on other people's user pages, plus various administrative pages regarding the article, it's actually more like 15%, that being 177 Edits out of 1,448. Plus a huge amount of his non-exetel edits are extremely recent, only in the last few months has he done anything except post about the exetel site (and those are dozens of tiny edits to pages about his local area). Like I said, the original and currenty objective of his account is to guard the exetel page. It's as close as you can be to a SPA without actually being a true SPA Macktheknifeau 15:58, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

AussieLegend arbitrary section break

"Once again I apologise for the length of this.." If AussieLegend would express his thoughts more briefly there would be no need to apologize.

I've explained why the response was so long. There is a lot of relevant history and without a proper explanation, which can't be given in a paragraph or two, you don't get the full context. --AussieLegend 05:19, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Web forum postings are not a reliable source, but newspapers are. That's why I ask the question about Exetel's traffic shaping, which was discussed in Sydney newspapers, and I'd like a clear answer as to why that information is being kept out of the article.

You've been given a clear answer which is further explained if you read the discussion on the article's talk page. That's the thing about discussion. You get to see exactly why people make the decisions that they do. --AussieLegend 05:19, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

It is conceivable you might have felt there was a local consensus that the information wasn't needed, but that feeling appears incorrect in the light of well-established policies.

Regardless of whether it was incorrect or not, that's what the consensus was and WP:CCC is very clear that no one person, and no (limited) group of people, can unilaterally declare that community consensus has changed which is exactly what Scott5834 has done by including the information. --AussieLegend 05:19, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Explain for us the removal of critical information from Exetel's article, which gives the appearance of bias.

Already done and done more than once. How many explanations are needed? --AussieLegend 05:19, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I'll add that it is also explained in the section above that you seemed to think was too long. Apprently it wasn't long enough. --AussieLegend 06:15, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Why don't you just put back the info on traffic-shaping, based on our new discussion here?

The discussion on this so far has been far too brief and limited. Consensus has not yet been reached. --AussieLegend 05:19, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

What is preventing you? EdJohnston 04:32, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages Policy. Or do you think I should ignore policy after it has been hammered down my throat by Scott? --AussieLegend 05:19, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

If policy prevents you from making edits that are otherwise valid, verifiable, reliably sourced, and supported by consensus, you ignore them. There is a clear source, the information is clearly relevant, there are many editors who believe the info should go in the article, and the only opposition there seems to be is you, citing WP:CCC for some reason. Consensus can change is what the policy says. The fact that only one person initially objects to the old consensus does not mean that a larger consensus won't be formed. I, for example, believe the content does belong in the article. Also, please do not dissect people's comments. Leave them intact and respond in your own single response. --Cheeser1 05:49, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

The disputed edits were not supported by consensus when they were made. Thats's not entirely correct. This discussion is only a few hours old. In the discussion on the Extel talk page the only editor that supported the inclusion was Scott5834. All other editors disagreed with their inclusion. I'm citing policy because in his attempt to have his edits included and to have others excluded Scott5834 has been selectively citing policy. When he wants the edits excluded he rigidly cites policy. When he wants his edits included he chooses to make excuses to ignore policy. I'm usually fairly flexible and admittedly I probably don't stick to policy as much as I should. If people want to kill my edits they usually can if they can cite a reason but when an editor tries to bludgeon his edits into existence and exclude the edits of other the way that Scott5834 has I become somewhat less flexible. I agree but you shouldn't just ignore consensus. All I'm asking is that some discussion occur first. Remember, this discussion wasn't implemented to discuss the changes, it was implement because of alleged uncivil actions and that only happened because Scott5834 wasn't getting his own way. He really doesn't seem to want to discuss the issue. He acts as if he's discussing but then just edits regardless. I'm sorry but I find it far easier to address the points somebody has raised if I do it that way. --AussieLegend 06:15, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

The following is added to restore some semblance of order the above since Cheeser1 has placed my comments in an unintelligble format and I don't have the time to completely rewrite it:

If policy prevents you from making edits that are otherwise valid, verifiable, reliably sourced, and supported by consensus, you ignore them.

The disputed edits were not supported by consensus when they were made.--AussieLegend 06:21, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

There is a clear source, the information is clearly relevant, there are many editors who believe the info should go in the article, and the only opposition there seems to be is you,

Thats's not entirely correct. This discussion is only a few hours old. In the discussion on the Extel talk page the only editor that supported the inclusion was Scott5834. All other editors disagreed with their inclusion.

citing WP:CCC for some reason.

I'm citing policy because in his attempt to have his edits included and to have others excluded Scott5834 has been selectively citing policy. When he wants the edits excluded he rigidly cites policy. When he wants his edits included he chooses to make excuses to ignore policy. I'm usually fairly flexible and admittedly I probably don't stick to policy as much as I should. If people want to kill my edits they usually can if they can cite a reason but when an editor tries to bludgeon his edits into existence and exclude the edits of other the way that Scott5834 has I become somewhat less flexible. --AussieLegend 06:15, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Consensus can change is what the policy says. The fact that only one person initially objects to the old consensus does not mean that a larger consensus won't be formed.

I agree but you shouldn't just ignore consensus. All I'm asking is that some discussion occur first. Remember, this discussion wasn't implemented to discuss the changes, it was implement because of alleged uncivil actions and that only happened because Scott5834 wasn't getting his own way. He really doesn't seem to want to discuss the issue. He acts as if he's discussing but then just edits regardless. --AussieLegend 06:15, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I, for example, believe the content does belong in the article. Also, please do not dissect people's comments. Leave them intact and respond in your own single response. --Cheeser1 05:49, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I find it far easier to address the points somebody has raised if I do it that way. --AussieLegend 06:15, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm glad you like chopping people's comments to bits, but that's now how discussions take place on Misplaced Pages. I explicitly asked you not to do so. Editing or rearranging other people's comments is inappropriate, most certainly when they ask you not to. I am especially concerned about this statement: "The disputed edits were not supported by consensus when they were made." Have you read the policy on bold edits? Of course there was no consensus then. He hadn't made his edit yet. Making a bold edit is an important way users contribute to Misplaced Pages. You seem to believe that you have "won" or something - that Scott consented to your consensus and that he is being devious and underhanded by introducing this content. Refer to this. You have not assumed good faith and have been uncivil. Perhaps he has too, being very insistent on having his information in the article. That is a fault of his, but that does not excuse you, nor does it resolve the issue: he has attempted to introduce verifiable, reliably sourced, relevant material to the article. You oppose him not based on some present reason, but based on past consensus. Past consensus is irrelevant: he's made a bold edit, and now it's time to discuss it. "You agreed to it 2 1/2 months ago" is inappropriate and pushy. --Cheeser1 06:29, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Fine. We'll have to compromise though.

"Editing or rearranging other people's comments is inappropriate"

As you just did to mine?

"Of course there was no consensus then. He hadn't made his edit yet."

Let's rewind a bit. You said, "If policy prevents you from making edits that are otherwise valid, verifiable, reliably sourced, and supported by consensus, you ignore them." My point is that because his edits weren't supported by consensus he couldn't just ignore policy. The traffic shaping inclusion had already been rejected when Macktheknifeau attempted to include it so there already was consensus that what Scott5834 proposed should not be included. Because there was an existing consensus he needed to discusss the proposed edits first, BEFORE adding them. I gave him that opportunity and did so quite civilly. I reverted his edits and directed him to the talk page and WP:CCC for guidance but he chose not to seek consensus and just added the edits again without even attempting to discuss it. After I reverted his edits the correct thing to do would have been to reopen the discussion on the talk page proposing that the edits be allowed but he made no attempt to do so.

"Making a bold edit is an important way users contribute to Misplaced Pages."

And that's fine but there was an existing consensus that what he wanted to include was not appropriate. That's why I reverted his edits and posted the following on his talk page:

Before you do any more editing of the Exetel article I suggest that you thoroughly read the discussion on the article's talk page. Traffic shaping, which you've just added was a contentious issue that resulted a mediation case, adminstrator intervention and full protection of the page for 3 months. Consensus among editors was that the traffic shaping/p2p deprioritisation issue was not worthy of inclusion in the article so you shouldn't just go ahead and add it in again. --AussieLegend 06:11, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

He obviously made no attempt to read the discussion because he immediately reverted my reversion. He really doesn't seemto care what others add to the article. He just reverts and adds what he wants. When what he said is countered he makes some excuse of heads off on a tangent and continues editing as he wants to without consideration for other editors.

"You seem to believe that you have "won" or something"

No, not at all. I do however believe that if an editor agrees with a series of edits and then changes his mind he should at least explain why he's changing edits that he has agreed to. It's just common courtesy. Scott5834 continues to show none of that.

"he is being devious and underhanded by introducing this content"

Well, he pretty much is. Since he started editing the Exetel page his actions have been a continual "say one thing and do another" act. He starts discussing an issue and while you're attempting to discuss it with him he heads off and edits the page. Take, for example, the techdirt article. We discussed that on the talk page and he knows quite well that the article doesn't even mention Exetel but has since restored the link to the article using the reason

not clear why this was removed as Exetel is mentioned as prime example

You can see the edit here. The reason is a lie. He knows that it was removed because the article doesn't mention Exetel and he knows that the article doesn't mention Exetel. We discussed that very issue.

He also feigned stepping back from editing. Only a few hours after posting "Perhaps we should take a break from editing the article to let things simmer down a bit?" he was back editing the article.

"You have not assumed good faith and have been uncivil"

I tried to assume good faith but I've seen what he tried to do before and what he is doing now. Despite that I've given him a lot of leeway in editing the article and have resisted urges to edit his edits. Instead I have attempted to discuss the issue with him but he has made some pretty outrageous claims, which I've mentioned in my large resposne further up this page and tried tosend me off on wild goose chases. I don't think I've been uncivil however his rather puerile use of "Keep civil" is rather annoying and I've made it clear that I find it annoying. I'm not going to apologise for that. Questioning his reasons for hacking a series of edits that he's previously claimed was "a great addition" is not being uncivil. Nor do I intend saying "Deja vue!" after seeing him say "Keep civil" yet again when he has no other response to something. His constant use of "keep civil" is like the schoolyard "I know you are but what anm I?". Still, despite my frustration I've continued to try to discuss while he makes edits based on misinformation or even worse, what amounts to pure fantasy (eg his insistence that the free period was implemented at the same time as the P2P deprioritisation) and completely ignores what others think and the efforts of other editors.

"he has attempted to introduce verifiable, reliably sourced, relevant material to the article."

He has also attempted to introduce information which is based on his own misguided assumptions and citations that do not support his claims and resists ignores all evidence that what he says is wrong.

"he's made a bold edit, and now it's time to discuss it."

As you can see by the talk page, I've tried. He pretends to discuss but ignores the opinion and proof of others and just forces his edits into the article regardless. --AussieLegend 07:54, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

i'd like to add that it simply ins't sufficient to say you agree with the edits in order to gain consensus. There are several points that still need addressing. Boing Boing, for example, is a blog site and it seems to be that a lot of people, not to mention policy, agree that blog sites aren't acceptable sources. The techdirt article that Scott5834 relies on doesn't even mention Exetel so it's not a valid source either. These are just two examples that need to be discussed. Until such time as they are, Scott5834 is going to continue to force them into the article. I've already tried justifying why they aren't valid and he just ignores reason. --AussieLegend 06:29, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I did not rearrange your comment, I simply undid your absurd chopping-up of mine. This is a bizarre and unproductive way to have a discussion. I will not stoop to tit-for-tat bickering. I've explained how you've acted without assuming good faith (you yourself have assumed that when he asks you to be civil, that he's teasing you - there's no reason to assume this). You've been uncivil. That is what this noticeboard is about - a complaint was filed against you. His actions are not in question, and his misdeeds (should such misdeeds exist) are not a defense for yours. I'd ask also that you keep the content dispute where it belongs - not here. You claim that he has agendas, biases, misinformation, etc. Again, you should be assuming good faith (and, if you were honest, you'd admit that we all have agendas, biases, and misinformation). Now, even though the content dispute is not relevant to the WQA, I will again point out that citing past consensus is not reason enough to dismiss someone's claims. In fact, it's not even valid - consensus must be re-established in the event of any bold edit. Outright reversion to this "old consensus" version, and refusal to compromise, goes against consensus policy. I'm not going to nitpick the fine points of this debate with you any more because this is not the place for that discussion. Scott has suggested that you both cool down. I suggest you do so. You've made alot of edits and comments (some very lengthy) regarding this topic and moreso regarding your conflict with Scott. This may indicate that you are worked up or invested in this conflict somehow. Take a breather, get some perspective, and try to come back to this content dispute with compromise and good faith in mind. --Cheeser1 08:16, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

"I did not rearrange your comment, I simply undid your absurd chopping-up of mine."

At least after my edits you post was still readble. All you needed to do was ignore the indented and signed edits. Your "undoing" removed formatting and signatures and turned my comments into a meaningless mess.

"This is a bizarre and unproductive way to have a discussion."

This "absurd", "bizarre and unproductive way to have a discussion" has been in use since well before I first started using Usenet in the mid-late 1980s and has served many people well over the past 20 (at least) years.

"you yourself have assumed that when he asks you to be civil, that he's teasing you - there's no reason to assume this)."

That's not actually what I said and any case there is a good reason as his comments and edits on the Extel pages show. As you are aware he suggested taking a break from editing but since doing so he's made at least 7 edits to the page so his susggestions don't really seem genuine. I've provided other examples above but it seems that they're not being seen.

"His actions are not in question"

His actions are entirely relevant though because they provide context taht was sought, which is why I've detailed some of them. As I said, I don't think I've been uncivil. I have been extremely tolerant of his misguided efforts to edit the article including his reversions of most other editors' changes and I've held back from making my own changes. In fcat I'vemade only 8 edits since he has returned, compared to his own 26 edits.

"Again, you should be assuming good faith"

I tried that in July and I even tried when I started participating in the discussion over his edits but when I saw that he was ignoring whatever I said and making whatever edits he wanted anyway I realised I was deluding myself. I think anyone who assumes good faith in his edits on the Exetel page is doing that. This is not to say that he hasn't produced some good work elsewhere. I've looked at some of his edits on other pages and I find very little that I'd really feel criticising but the Exetel page seems to be a different matter. I don't know why but I'd like to. I did ask but received no reply. --AussieLegend 11:12, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

As I've said - his conduct may be pushy, but this is a complaint filed against you. Deflecting blame onto him may bring attention to his actions, but it will not remove any attention from your actions. Using months-old consensus to dismiss changes to an article is not in the spirit of consensus policy or bold editing policy. I can imagine such a response may have caused Scott to ignore your objections and re-insert the content. --Cheeser1 06:32, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Cheeser1, but would also suggest that you may have gotten more interest in the actions of the other editor by first acknowledging a mistake in insisting that an opinion be unchangeable on your part. (Though I also want to say when one changes their opinion they should explain why it changed, otherwise the rest of us may wonder about the nature of such a sudden change.) Anynobody 08:26, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I never insisted that my opinion was unchangeable. I just posted the following on his talk page:

Before you do any more editing of the Exetel article I suggest that you thoroughly read the discussion on the article's talk page. Traffic shaping, which you've just added was a contentious issue that resulted a mediation case, adminstrator intervention and full protection of the page for 3 months. Consensus among editors was that the traffic shaping/p2p deprioritisation issue was not worthy of inclusion in the article so you shouldn't just go ahead and add it in again. --AussieLegend 06:11, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

As I've already noted, he completely ignored it and just edited it back in.

"Though I also want to say when one changes their opinion they should explain why it changed, otherwise the rest of us may wonder about the nature of such a sudden change"

Thank you for saying that. I was starting to think I'm the only person who thinks that way. --AussieLegend 11:12, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

"Using months-old consensus to dismiss changes to an article"

That's not what I've been doing. I intially reverted his edits and suggested he look at the talk page. He ignored that and everything that I've said since. All I wamt him to do is discuss the edits before making them and to take on board what is said but he dismisses everything regardless of its validity.

"Using months-old consensus to dismiss changes to an article is not in the spirit of consensus policy "

That's not entirely true. WP:CCC says that no individual can declare consensus has changed yet this is effectively what Sott5834 is doing. WP:CCC also implies that proposals to change consensus should be discussed. It also says that[REDACTED] does not ignore precendt. All I'm doing is to try to convince him that there is a precedent and that he should discuss the matter which is in accordance with consensus policy. He just refuses. No, actually that's not true because he hasn't actually refused. He's made no response at all. He just edits andedits and edits, even when he's supposedly taking a break from editing the article.

If he is willing to discuss the edits, so am I. I've indicated above that there probably is a case for including them. I don't know how many times I have to say this before somebody will take it in. I do, however, expect that if he expects that others should folow a policy then he should follow the policy as well and not expect to be exempt from the same rules that he expects others to comply with. Is that unreasonable? --AussieLegend 08:40, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

You both appear to be discussing the edits quite alot on the relevant talk page - however, the discussion has strayed and become uncivil. That is not only his fault. Your comments have been uncivil and have assumed bad faith. This is the concern of this WQA post. Your actions. Certainly, he has been unduly pushing his edits on the article. But you've been pushing back, making this some sort of shoving contest. He, on the other hand, has been pushy but has asked repeatedly for you to remain civil, and has suggested things like cooling off. This is not a contest to see who's more at fault. It is a complaint about your incivility. I've told you what I have to tell you: your actions were uncivil. You seem to have assumed bad faith. You have not seemed willing to listen to him when he suggested cooling off or being civil. This is not appropriate. I'm not here to evaluate Scott's actions, and yet I have, and I have mostly agreed with you. I'm not even going to touch the content dispute, because it's totally irrelevant. The point is, your actions are in question here. And I've said all I have to say. Feel free to pick apart every sentence of this post to try to elicit a response, but I'm done here. I've done everything I can to explain how you've been uncivil in the hopes that you'll take it as constructive criticism, instead of trying to blame Scott for everything. --Cheeser1 17:37, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

217.43.78.244

At the list of light heavyweight boxing champions 217.43.78.244/86.134.241.52 continue to revert edits I make. When I attempt to discuss these edits on the talk page I get no response, just more reversions. Of course, I did get this response on one of his/her user talk pages: "MKil, you're a fucking idiot."

I figured I'd bring it here instead of continuing the revert war game. MKil 20:55, 20 September 2007 (UTC)MKil

Now it appears this same person is using 81.156.68.208 and continuing with the profanity.MKil 21:18, 20 September 2007 (UTC)MKil

The List of light heavyweight boxing champions that was the victim of the improper edits has apparently been semi-protected until 22 September. EdJohnston 00:59, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm afraid we can't help you here - it's pretty obvious that there's no good faith coming from this user. If the problem persists once the semi-protection is lifted, you should take it to WP:ANI and look for a block of the IP. Marking as stuck. Sarcasticidealist 01:04, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

User:Odd nature

User resorted to personal attacks and other hostilities (not assuming good faith) when I politely explained here why his edits were problematic. In fact, the user blatantly and unabashedly admits to violating WP:ASG with this comment (and he cites non-specific extra-Wiki material to justify it). Jinxmchue 21:54, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

So? Reading your blog is illegal? Really? OrangeMarlin 22:03, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Nice misrepresentation of what I posted. Jinxmchue 22:10, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

You caught on. Good. OrangeMarlin 22:27, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

If we are to assume good faith, what should we make of "I don't really give a rat's ass about Wiki rules anymore"? Have you renounced that view? Ossified 12:37, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

You tell me. Jinxmchue 07:08, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

OK, I'll tell you. If that's your renunciation, it's pretty weak tea. Ossified 12:03, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

(undent) This is a Wikiquette forum, sarcasm is hardly called for. That said though, Jinxmchue, I don't see any real violations of WP:CIVIL in this links you've provided. (I won't comment on content/editing though, since I haven't looked into it). --Bfigura 22:48, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

So making baseless accusations of me of not understanding rules and of "white washing" articles is civil? Jinxmchue 22:59, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Hmm....That runs into an issue raised in WP:SPADE. But since I haven't looked into the details, I don't know who is correct (factually) in this case. (And I haven't read your blog, so I can't comment on whether his allegations have merit). But you are correct, even if he is right, his doubts could have been phrased more politely. I'm not 100% they constitute a personal attack, but they do seem mildly uncivil. I'll leave a note to that effect. --Bfigura 23:09, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

It's got nothing to do with SPADE. Odd nature disagreed with my edits and defended reverts by uncivilly claiming that I didn't understand the rules (proof of that?) and was trying to white wash articles (which boggles my mind since the reference I removed was nothing more than a second-hand repeat of the reference before it - how can I white wash something when the information remains?). Jinxmchue 07:16, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Could anyone who has been working on the D. James Kennedy article start out by explaining the issues in User talk:Odd nature#Recent edits to D. James Kennedy? The thread under that heading is a source of much bafflement. Who is talking about removing what references, and for what reason? I see no need to consider what is said in an external blog. Removing references is supposed to require a Talk page consensus. Who among you is confident that he has consensus to remove references, and please point to where that was decided. Removal of tags should need consensus also. EdJohnston 23:46, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

The reversions made were not made with any consideration as to everything that was being reverted. The initial revert here, which is described by Odd nature as "Restoring deleted content/sources," actually restores a defunct reference (the Coral Ridge Hour reference) which I removed because it doesn't work anymore due to changes to the source website (now it simply goes to the main Coral Ridge Hour page). The revert also was made with no consideration regarding verb tense changes due to Kennedy's death, added date brackets or added fact/citation tags.

I honestly have never seen anyone request consensus when adding or removing references before. Either this isn't a well-known rule or it simply doesn't exist. Jinxmchue 07:28, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

You know, I find it fascinating that Odd and Guettarda are apparently hiding behind WP:SPADE to defend their incivility. Can I do that, too? Be uncivil and then just say, "Whelp, I'm just calling a spade a spade! You can't nail me for NPA!"? Jinxmchue 15:25, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Did you read WP:SPADE? First of all, it's an essay, not a policy. Second of all, it simply describes the fine line between telling the truth and being a jerk. OMG I said jerk. But guess what, if we're talking about somebody making personal attacks, that's exactly what being a jerk is. A jerk is a jerk. The fact that we don't have to sugar-coat everything we say is not an invitation for you to throw WP:NPA out the window, and you (ought to) know it. --Cheeser1 15:47, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

"It's an essay, not a policy." No! Really? I guess I was confused about that because of how others were portraying it. And incidentally (or not), one person's SPADE excuse for "a jerk is a jerk" is a NPA violation to someone else. Who do you decide is right? Additionally, I could equally use SPADE to justify the things I have said about others. They weren't personal attacks. They were calling a spade a spade. Shall we continue to go around in this endless circle? Jinxmchue 23:00, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Since you refuse to participate constructively, no, we shan't. --Cheeser1 23:13, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm being constructive. It just appears that people don't want to deal with uncomfortable questions and comments. Jinxmchue 00:45, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Jinxmchue, you really do have to call a spade a spade here: Odd nature is consistently rude and uncivil, unless he's tag-teaming with other users like Orangemarlin, FeloniousMonk, KillerChihuahua, ConfuciusOrnis, Filll, or others in their clique. They are their own little "cabal", communicating "off-wiki", intent on berating and beating down any user who might disagree with their well-known and obvious POVs, using whatever means necessary to maintain the "purity" of WP for them, regardless of whether it drives WP into the ground for its (that is, their) obvious bias. And once they have "pegged" you as "not one of us," they will stalk you, hound you, arbitrarily revert you and harass -- even ban -- you until you leave WP for good, because they own WP -- at least their little corner of it. They are their own priesthood, a prole's vanguard of the great unwashed masses who writhe in the muck of their ignorance, and they will brook no dissent from heathen such as yourself.

Welcome to Misplaced Pages, Jinxmchue. Best of luck. --profg 22:59, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

User:Guettarda

User also resorted to personal attacks and other hostilities (e.g. this edit about "temper tantrums") when problematic edits were pointed out. Jinxmchue 21:54, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Have you read WP:NPA? OrangeMarlin 22:05, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I have. Jinxmchue 22:11, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

The incivility looks mutual to me, in tone and content. For example, you called his editing "mindless." I only followed the link you gave, so if there is more I have missed it. Bsharvy 22:08, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

That was not incivility. That was a description of edits that were obviously not done with any consideration as to what was being changed. Jinxmchue 22:12, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

And there you have it, folks. Everyone else is at fault but Jinxmchue. Odd nature 22:23, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, you're right. Only I am at fault for anything regarding all this. Jinxmchue 23:02, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Jinxmchue, I think you may not understand what people consider a personal attack. ANYTHING that is a comment about the editor or a quality comment about the edit, when previous comments about editors are present can be understood to be a personal attack. The two WA listings here seem to be a lack of good faith on your part as much as on others, based on the links you've shown. keep to neutral descriptions of comments (i.e., removing unsourced material) when you feel the need to revert someone. Also, try and keep to the talk pages of the articles. It is much easier to stay focused on the article, rather than the editor. Also, if your blog shows a particular point of view be careful editing to strongly towards it, because people will review your edits closely. --Rocksanddirt 22:53, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

No, I really do think that most rational Wikipedians would agree that accusing someone of having a "temper tantrum" is a personal attack. Jinxmchue 23:02, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Nah, not when it's accurate. &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 00:16, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Folks, I see a lot of back-and-forth bickering right here in this alert that could be perceived as violations of WP:CIVIL. I suggest that you ALL read WP:CIVIL and WP:COOL, and take a few moments to examine your comments in that light. --Darkwind (talk) 01:47, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Just to clarify - the last time this came up "Jinx" McHue insisted on replacing reliably sourced content with his own opinion. When other editors did not acquiesce, he complained about OWNership, and when no one reacted, he quit the project in a huff, attacking the project and fellow editors off-wiki. In other words, he threw a temper tantrum. That isn't an attack, it's a description of his behaviour. Now he's back and is up to the same nonsense, inserting weasel words like "purportedly" in front of the (sourced) information he tried to get expunged from the article back in June because he didn't believe the source (a report which quoted the leading scholar on the history of intelligent design). He has made his intentions abundantly clear. While one would have hoped that after his break he would have returned with a little more respect for our sourcing policies, his actions editing the article show that he still holds them in contempt. Per WP:SPADE, since he has resumed his pattern of editing, that I would be rather stupid to assume good faith on the part of an editing who has made it abundantly clear that he is not acting in good faith. Guettarda 03:52, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Gee, I didn't realize that I typed my own handle instead of "Guettarda" above. My bad. Jinxmchue 07:35, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I have to say there appear to be several ongoing issues underlying this. Resolving the specific issues mentioned in Guettarda's post should probably be addressed in some other forum within the dispute resolution process. As to the complaint which generated this thread, describing another editor's behavior is a tricky proposition because it can be very easy to slip into a personal attack if done incorrectly or if too much emotion is involved. Here, I think Guettarda was simply being blunt in describing the relationship between opinion and sourced material as well as their opinion of Jinxmchue's behavior. Anynobody 08:46, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Once again, we waste the community's time protecting POV-warriors, and attack reasonable editors like Guettarda. Excellent choice. OrangeMarlin 00:40, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, because Guettarda (and Odd nature) aren't "POV-warriors" at all. Jinxmchue 00:43, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Jason, falsely accusing me of being a "POV warrior" is a personal attack. You really want to engage in personal attacks while complaining about Wikiquette violations? Please remove your personal attacks. Guettarda 02:41, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

User:Shutterbug

A violation of WP:NPA, WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF against myself and Jimmy Wales right here:--Fahrenheit451 01:17, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

That looks fairly uncivil to me also, and it seems the common tactic for an editer to accuse others of lying/deceiving etc. simply because they disagree with them is decidedly unhelpful. While I bet Mr. Wales could care less about Shutterbug 's opinion of him it does seem that Shutterbug would benifit from a cool down. Allgoodnamesalreadytaken 01:33, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

This user is the former User:COFS, who has an open ArbCom case. Any comments about this user's current behavior need to be brought to that case page, not to WQA. --Darkwind (talk) 01:44, 22 September 2007 (UTC) Struck per my comment below. --Darkwind (talk) 04:04, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Not true, see this: That case is evidently closed. This is a Wikiquette matter.--Fahrenheit451 02:21, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I didn't interpret that comment as meaning the case was not accepting further evidence, but since they do have a proposed decision under consideration, it probably is too late to add this matter. As for this alert, the user's behavior may be a violation of wikiquette, but I don't think WQA has the ability to make this particular user listen to reason when it comes to AGF/CIVIL/NPA, etc. However, if another WQA volunteer wants to take a shot, I won't complain. I've replaced the {{NWQA}} template on this alert with {{WQA in progress}} to facilitate interest. --Darkwind (talk) 04:04, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Granted, we don't have the ability to force anyone to do anything, much less listen to reason. But any reason for the doubts, or should I just drop a note on Shutterbug's talk? Cheers, --Bfigura 07:04, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

User:Malik Shabazz - AGF and baiting

This user has assumed bad faith and uses sarcasm and baiting against me. From his talk page it's apparent that he's conducted himself this way with many other editors. At this point I'm so frustrated that I don't even feeling like participating in the project anymore. Popkultur 21:59, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Do you have any specific diff's that we should look at? --Bfigura 00:04, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

It really doesn't matter now. Thanks for your help though. Popkultur 00:41, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Ok. Sorry to hear it, but best of luck outside Misplaced Pages :) --Bfigura 06:41, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Johann hari

This is concerning allegations inserted by the user Felix-Felix into the entry for British journalist Johann Hari.

To give some context, as reading though the page's history will show, the user Felix-Felix has described the British journalist Johann Hari (recently named as journalist of the year by Amnesty International) as "a self-publicising careerist, and an especially unpleasant one at that", accused him of being in favour of "the destruction of Untermenschen" , inserted into his entry fictitious claims he went to the most exclusive public school in Britain when in fact his father is a bus driver, and, most crucially, inserted poorly sourced and legally disputed claims that he "fabricated" a story he wrote about. This is a pattern of falsehood and animus that really worries me.

Felix-Felix is currently arguing that he can insert a new section into the entry, designed by his own admission to suggest Hari's journalistic standards have been seriously impugned. He does not have BLP or NOTE standard sources for these claims, as three wiki administrators have said (you can find these in the archive).

There are four 'sources' felix claims to have.

(1) Private Eye. This is a British scandal magazine, which Hari was attacked by literally a week after he criticised its editor in print. One wiki administrator has said on this page it should be viewed with "a very jaundiced eye", another has said it is "at best 50 percent accurate", yet Felix is insisting on using it as a source. This fails both BLP and NOTE, since Private Eye attacks virtually all prominent journalists sooner or later.

(2) A website called Counterpunch,. which meets BLP standards, but has an extraordinarily trivial charge against Hari. They complain that he repeated in an op-ed column a story that had been reported in hundreds of newspapers. Even they concede that once it became clear the story was fake, he published a correction. This fails NOTE.

(3) A journalist called Nick Cohen, who was responding to a very critical review of his book by Hari. This is (rightly) included in the entry already, since it passes both BLP and NOTE.

(4) An obscure pro-war website, which is written by friends of Cohen, who simply repeated his charge. This fails NOTE.

I believe this is an inadequate basis on which to build a section suggesting Hari's journalistic standards have been seriously questioned by wiki-standard sources. Felix-Felix disagrees. We are deadlocked in our disagreement. Any outside comment would be very welcome. David r from meth productions 23:35, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I would suggest you move this posting to the biographies of living people noticeboard, where experienced editors can respond. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:02, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree. This is a BLP issue - it's better addressed at that noticeboard. --Cheeser1 04:44, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Dave, as I've requested you do before, please stop these personal attacks which range from grossly misrepresenting my edits to outright falsehoods. Please provide links to my edits if you disagree.FelixFelix 08:05, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Please do not frivolously accuse others of making personal attacks (which is itself uncivil). It is clear and obvious that the two users filing this complaint are commenting on the content you've contributed to the article. This is absolutely, by definition, not a personal attack. --Cheeser1 08:34, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

User:A Kiwi

It was suggested to me that I post this here for advice and assistance.

I am very concerned about the personal speculation and commentary made by User:A Kiwi that is devolving into senseless and irrelevant personal attacks. , , , , , , , , , .

On one hand I don't think it is appropriate (or productive) for me to keep "rising to the bait" and getting into discussion with her, but on the other I don't think it would be very wise for me to let it go without refutation, as it is about me, not at all accurate and on fairly permanent record. Perhaps somebody could reason with her a little? --Zeraeph 00:14, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Already at WP:AN/I , has been there for several days. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:37, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Well this is just a different, more informal, approach two seperate admins advised me to take instead. I did not even know this page existed until today. --Zeraeph 00:44, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

PS here is an opinion on the last time I sought advice on a similar issue and User:SandyGeorgia tried to get me sanctioned for "forum shopping" . I really believe that I have as much right as anyone else to seek advice and assistance in resolving disputes. --Zeraeph 02:12, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

(undent) It seems there a fair amount of reading to do here. I'll take a stab at it, and see if I can come to some sort of conclusion. --Bfigura 02:14, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, I am happy to try anything you can suggest to stand this situation down.--Zeraeph 02:21, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

So, after looking through the diff's provided, I don't really see any egregious breaches of WP:CIVIL. There's clearly a lot of history here however, which is no doubt complicated by the off-wiki history, so it's entirely possibly I'm missing something. If you think I am, feel free to give me a brief summary of why you think there's a civility issue. (Since what I'm seeing now is a lot of back and forth that (for wikipedia) seems reasonably restrained on both sides). However, I would add that it's considered polite to notify someone when you file a complaint about them here or at AN/I. (I'll do that now -- since I didn't see anything on Kiwi's talk page). Best, --Bfigura 02:33, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh I did notify her , you must have missed it because I put it in a PS with a hyperlink. I do not feel personal matters should be raised on Misplaced Pages, it isn't appropriate, I wouldn't be comfortable with it if she was sticking to the facts, which she is not. Surely it isn't in accord with WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA to use Misplaced Pages as a forum for expressing fictional personal negatives about other editors? I have to refute it or otherwise someone is bound to pick up the diffs and use them against me in a few weeks time as though they were hard facts. --Zeraeph 03:04, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for missing the link there. And I agree, personal information has no place on Misplaced Pages. (Although you may have opened the door with this post that Kiwi dug up diff). That said though, Kiwi digging through the archives to re-post it isn't terribly polite (and I'll leave Kiwi a brief note saying as much). But aside from that, most of the content looks relatively civil. Hopefully the two of you can settle this amiably, since you seem to both be valuable contributors here. Best, --Bfigura 03:18, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

If you look, you will see that User:A Kiwi actually made that post, not me. Doesn't matter, I have realised the dice are too heavily loaded against me whatever I do or say, I am scr*wed, maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but someday soon and for the rest of my life. I am retiring. Thank you for trying. --Zeraeph 03:30, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I hate to see good contributors leave the project, so I just wanted to extend my hope that you'll join us again after a wikibreak. If not, all the best. --Bfigura 05:12, 24 September 2007 (UTC)