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Archives

Archive 1: 2006-03-18—2007-07-17 Archive 2: 2007-07-17—2007-08-13 Archive 3: 2007-08-16—2007-09-21

Removal of AFA views from the article

Orpheus, I refer to this link that was just archived by CMMK . You two have not been explaining over and over, you have been repeatedly dismissing sourced views. The "not a press release, detailed directory" objection simply doesn't hold. There is no policy on those points, and concisely presented sourced views do not apply. Summary style is WP style. I have explained that the important parts of what you keep deleting are simply deleted from the article. So the views are being suppressed. Two editors repeatedly deleting and dismissing reliable sources and discussion does not mean consensus. I am totally willing to apply for outside input on this matter and therefore I am totally willing to listen to Misplaced Pages community input. You can keep trying to dismiss my comments if you like, but its not going to stop me from applying Misplaced Pages policies to the article. I am not insinuating anything, I am clearly presenting you with the NPOV tutorial section on Information Suppression Hal Cross 02:01, 22 September 2007 (UTC)Hal Cross 02:18, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

I am totally willing to apply for outside input on this matter and therefore I am totally willing to listen to Misplaced Pages community input.

Good - please do so.

I am not insinuating anything, I am clearly presenting you

That would be an accusation then. There's plenty of insinuation in the other comments, and I for one am sick of both. There is no information suppression because the information you are trying to add is either already in the article or easily accessible from the issues link provided (linked as "The AFA raises and pursues these and other issues").

Orpheus 07:28, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

OK, Orpheus, I will just have to explain it to you again. The first line states "A common way of introducing bias is by one-sided selection of information. Information can be cited that supports one view while some important information that opposes it is omitted or even deleted.". You are introducing bias by deleting the reliably sourced information presented in the correct context . Notice I have not deleted any reliably sourced criticism of the AFA. Not one. You have been deleting repeatedly for a long time. The last line states "It is important that the various views and the subject as a whole are presented in a balanced manner and that each is summarized as if by its proponents to their best ability." You are repeatedly deleting such information and thus preventing NPOV from being allowed. All relevant views should be allowed "summarized as if by its proponents to their best ability". The views are relevant to the beliefs and goals of the AFA and they should be presented without suppression. Please stop deleting such information from the article. The information is necessary to create an article that comes closer to featured article status. Hal Cross 07:44, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

More comprehensive belief section

In my effort to bring the article closer to featured article status, using the Islam article as an exemplar, I have added more belief related information to the belief and goal section . Please offer input or suggestions here. Hal Cross 11:12, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Hello Orpheus. You just deleted the new and more comprehensive belief section . Now I am not going to say your actions are dismissive again, but you did rather say that it had been discussed "per lengthy talk page discussion" in your edit summary. Now I think you would have to admit that is not entirely accurate. Firstly there is more information there, and it is in a very different context. None of those things have ever been discussed. Furthermore, as per usual, and similar to CMMK's edit summary comments, you do not make adjustments, you simply delete without any suggestions on how to improve or adjust. Perhaps you would like to come back to the land of the living in terms of Misplaced Pages talkpage discussion? Or not! Hal Cross 16:23, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

, and . Orpheus 17:53, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Orpheus, posting such links isn't helping anyone. All objections have been dealt with, and new material is presented. This version is far more encyclopedic than the one you keep insisting upon . Narrowing the views and suppressing their reasoning really is against NPOV policies. You are really not helping the article move towards featured article status. Please refrain from dismissing sourced relevant views, and please stop dismissing my efforts to accommodate NPOV policies. Hal Cross 19:08, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

New material

Regarding the new material posted:

• The Yahoo "action alert" is years out of date (2001 - hardly current). At best it should go in former (unsuccessful) boycotts, but we don't really need a comprehensive list of every boycott ever suggested by the AFA.
• The research by Paul Cameron is not published in a reputable, reliable academic journal and is therefore not a reliable source in this context. Additionally, Paul Cameron is a thoroughly discredited former psychologist who has been expelled by the American Psychological Association and censured by four professional organisations and a federal court. The Freund & Watson link does not suppport what you have written in the text.
• The bit about the AFA being under attack by the "homosexual community" is a slanted version of what's already in the article and is unnecessary.

Orpheus 07:28, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

The Yahoo information is supported by multiple citations. The Research by Cameron is what the AFA uses to support their views, Freund and Watson is also used by the AFA to support their beliefs. Yes the AFA has their own slant on criticism of themselves and that is their view. Removal of such reliably sourced views results in such relevant views being suppressed and thus bias is introduced to the article . I am allowing all relevant views. You have disallowed specific AFA views giving the reason that the AFA is slanted. Misplaced Pages acknowledges that all have their viewpoint. I refer to you the basic point of NPOV, a simple formulation . I also urge you towards an article that is closer to a featured article status. That involves adding an encyclopedic level of information to the article, rather than restricting it or narrowing it in information towards any particular bias. I have been adding information that comes from the beliefs of the AFA according to reliable sources. Their beliefs and reasoning needs to be presented in full if NPOV is to be allowed. You seem to be perpetually disallowing such information against the basic goals of Misplaced Pages - to present encyclopedic articles. I have not once removed or disallowed any reliably sourced critical information. In fact I have just added critical information. Please go back to NPOV policies, re-read and come back to this article with a fully informative encyclopedic article in mind. Hal Cross 09:27, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Take your own advise and try to write "an article that is closer to a featured article status." Maybe you should read WP:IA and WP:FACR because your edits are not moving the article "closer to a featured article status." You continue to ignore any constructive criticism of your in inappropriate edits and you continue to accuse others of policy violations when they have not violated any policy; this is also very bothersome. —Christopher Mann McKay 02:36, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

If you care to give any specifics on your objections, rather than dismissively delete, I think your comment above may mean something. As it is your comment just looks like smoke. Please offer constructive comments on the specifics of the material rather than me or your feelings about WP editing. I refer to your comments and your deletions and not to you. Hal Cross 03:26, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Your "WP editing" is directly related "to your comments and your deletions," which are made by you...—Christopher Mann McKay 03:49, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

CMMK your comment is unconstructive. You have still not explained your objections to the sourced material in question. For example, please explain why you object to the sourced and supported AFA views on the link between homosexuality and pedophilia being presented into the article. Hal Cross 10:04, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Encyclopedic information; Beliefs and Goals

Orpheus. You have once again removed this information from the beliefs and goals section .To my knowledge it is all reliably sourced, adds information to the article and is relevant to beliefs and goals. Despite your edit summary, your reasons for removing the information are still totally unclear. Please explain your reasons for removing each piece of information in turn. Hal Cross 02:12, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Clearly there is a need to improve the beliefs and goals section. What are your suggestions? Hal Cross 11:40, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

I've already made them, below. Orpheus 15:32, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

AFA and Boycotts

This information was removed from the article: . That’s a lot of information and a lot of explanation of AFA views. Removing the information creates a POV fork. Again it suppresses the views of the AFA for specific issues. I see nothing wrong with re-organizing or adding to it, but removing it suppresses encyclopedic information about the views of the AFA.

Also, this information is relevant to the boycotts section: The AFA have expressed concern that Yahoo is encouraging pedophilia by providing sites that contain sexually explicit pictures of children (PR Newswire 2001) The AFA's are running a petition drive urging Yahoo! to eliminate all such pornography from its site. Orpheus removed it saying its too old. The AFA is still here, Yahoo is still here, and Yahoo are still selling porn of all descriptions and it is still being viewed by pedophiles, homosexuals or any other category of porn viewer. It’s a relevant addition to the boycotts section, is current and ongoing. Feel free to offer any reason for why you don't want this information in the article. Hal Cross 02:23, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

What are your suggestions on the Yahoo issue? Hal Cross 11:39, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Same as they were the first time - it's not as notable as some of the other boycotts, so it's not a high priority to keep. They could have equally said the same thing about Google, or Comcast, or AOL, or Joe's Fish Shack, or any other company with a public ftp or web server that's been used to host porn. Orpheus 15:32, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

AFA responses to Katrina

CMMK, you added this to the article; . Do you have the actual press release from the AFA in this regard? Also, I am just wondering the sort of bias the statement has. To me it looks quite one sided. What do you think? Hal Cross 02:36, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

What are your suggestions on how to improve this piece of information? Hal Cross 11:38, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Freund, K. & Watson, Vitagliano

CMMK, you removed this multiple sourced view . Please explain why you removed it? Hal Cross 03:03, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Is it not obivous? In addition to what Orpheus stated, Misplaced Pages is NOT a place to reference faulty studies just because the AFA journal did a news story on it. It has no relevance... —Christopher Mann McKay 03:10, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Its an AFA view and you are not supposed to edit with reference to your OR on the correctness of the study. If you disagree that men seeking and engaging in sexual activities with boys is not a sort of homosexual behavior, I think the vast majority of the world would disagree with you. Its the sourced view that counts, rather than mine or your's. Its an encyclopedic fact and relevant to the homosexual agenda. Its a specific view from the AFA and is clearly stated. Its also neutrally stated and given with due context. Hal Cross 03:22, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Category dispute

The category dispute, especially concerning the homophobia category, is still ongoing. I added the category disputed tag and kept removal to a minimum so that the rest of the article could be improved. The dispute continues, as far as I am concerned the homophobia category is:

• Accusatory in this case
• Pejorative in this case
• Totally unbalanced. Its applied with only one particular view in mind
• Circumvents NPOV policy specifically because it cannot be annotated
• Lists are a much more appropriate alternative

Therefore, the category should be removed. Hal Cross 03:15, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Does anybody other than Hal Cross think this? The proposed solution is here: Talk:American Family Association/Archive 3#Category. Comment here if you agree or disagree with it. Orpheus 10:01, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Agree obviously. Orpheus 10:01, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Disagree. The solution here is to remove inappropriate categories. There is no point switching one inappropriate category with another inappropriate category. The pedophilia category is more relevant and appropriate than both the homophobia ones. Not that I am offering it as a solution, just that the homophobia and homophobic violence cats are totally out of order here, Hal Cross 11:38, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Comment Nobody is suggesting Category:Homophobic violence for this article. Nobody has ever suggested that category for this article. That category was specifically created so that the American Family Association was not associated with organisations engaging in homophobic violence. It shows a remarkable lack of reading comprehension on your part that you are still suggesting that, after being corrected several times. Orpheus 12:01, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Nobody else has come along to support your view, Hal, so unless someone does in the near future I'll remove the disputed category tag from the article. Orpheus 14:07, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

No need Orpheus. Cheeser1 has just removed it for you yet the dispute continues.

The category is applied in an accusational way, its controverted, its not self evident at all because conservative Christians mostly believe that homosexual behavior is a sin yet those articles are not labeled with the homophobia category at all. The application of the category means that NPOV is not satisfied regarding that issue. Lists have always been offered as an alternative. But happily, I will have some more information related to this matter to add to the article. Hal Cross 18:23, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Hal, not it's not. The use of a category that you don't think is fair or true doesn't make it accusatory or nonNPOV. Lists are not alternatives to categories - they function in entirely different ways and preclude one another. Can we not call the KKK a racist organization now either?? Your argument is nonsense. It's only an accusation if you choose to take it as one, and it's only nonNPOV if it's an accusation. --Cheeser1 01:36, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Cheeser1. With respect, there are bound to be many editors who will disagree with you. I am only one of them. Hal Cross 02:47, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not a democracy - it doesn't matter how many people disagree with me, even hypothetically. Like I've already said, there are verifiable characterizations of this group as homophobic, provided by reliable sources. You haven't provided a single reason why we can't include it: it's not an accusation, it's a verifiable statement about the group. Homophobia is defined as "the fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or LGBT people." It is verifiable that the AFA has an anti-gay agenda and set of beliefs (e.g. the SPLC, an authority on discrimination in the US). What more could you ask for? --Cheeser1 03:30, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

The category is not self-evident. It adds nothing to the understanding of homophobia. Therefore according to WP recommendations on categorization, it can be removed. Hal Cross 04:12, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Self-evidence is not what is required. Verifiability is. We have that. It's also not here to "add ... to the understanding of homophobia." It's here to categorize this article. It does so. Please stop alluding to nonexistent "WP recommendations." --Cheeser1 04:15, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Lead section improvements

I made some changes to the lead section as per WP:LEAD. . The article main body seems to be under attack specifically from some editors who are persistently removing the sourced views of the AFA. So I'm improving the lead as per "relative emphasis in the lead should not reflect the body if the body is haphazard or missing critical information.". Feel free to discuss here Hal Cross 04:02, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Feel free to make a suggestion. Hal Cross 11:37, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Already did, below. Orpheus 15:32, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

POV forking

Orpheus and CMMK. You keep deleting the section on boycotts including the reasoning for those boycotts . That creates a POV fork. Here is the relevant section . It states:

• A POV fork is an attempt to evade NPOV policy by creating a new article about a certain subject that is already treated in an article, often to avoid or highlight negative or positive viewpoints or facts. This is generally considered unacceptable. The generally accepted policy is that all facts and major Points of View on a certain subject are treated in one article.

You have been removing the information in a way that hides AFA viewpoints for why they are boycotting those particular companies. I have no problem at all with re-arranging the a viewpoints to make them more concise and information rich. But repeatedly removing them from the article is unacceptable POV pushing. Please stop deleting the sourced views of the AFA. Hal Cross 12:36, 26 September 2007 (UTC)Hal Cross 13:25, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

It's a list of boycotts. The article doesn't need to have a list of every single boycott the AFA has ever been involved in. It's fine to move that list to a sub-article which is linked using the main template. A POV fork is where you end up with two articles presenting different sides of an issue. That is not the case here. Orpheus 15:02, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Maybe a sub-article isn't that bad an idea. I may create it if for no other reason to cease this latest squabble here. WAVY 10 15:23, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Hello Wavy 10. I really have no objection to sub-articles or whatever as long as the views are presented clearly and encyclopedically. I am open to any of your suggestions and would really like some advice on how to proceed. Hal Cross 15:34, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Orpheus, you are dismissing WP regulations. Read it again, its just above in this section just a few paragraphs up next to the bullet point. Removing the large portion of the section is an attempt to evade NPOV policy by creating a new article about a certain subject that is already treated in an article, often to avoid or highlight negative or positive viewpoints or facts. Sure you can have the other article and I can fill it out with more details about why the AFA has boycotted those companies. But the specific views about specific companies and why they are boycotted have to be present in the main article itself, otherwise AFA views are suppressed. I can see a lot of ways to make that section richer and I will do that no matter how many times you try to remove the views of the AFA. Deleting those views is completely unacceptable, just as it says above. It removes encyclopedic information about the subject. It impoverishes the article. It weakens the knowledge content of the article. It disinforms the reader about specific views of the AFA. I would like to remind you yet again as you don't seem to have grasped this basic fact about encyclopedic editing on Misplaced Pages; All relevant views are to be presented. I am allowing all relevant views. Please watch more carefully and learn from me and other concerned Misplaced Pages editors and allow all relevant views. This point is really very important and I hope you will try your very best to understand at least this elementary concept fully before you make any more edits or comments on Misplaced Pages. I will be extremely happy to make that boycott section more concise and encyclopedic. I can present the rationales for why the AFA decided to boycott certain groups of companies very very clearly. There seems to be a lot of room for that. I doubt whether an anti-AFA editor will like the result though. Never mind, Misplaced Pages is not about what we like. Its about making a good encyclopedia. Hal Cross 15:32, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Wavy 10, there is no need for two sub-sections on boycotts; one is sufficient. Having two sub-articles for boycotts would not "cease this latest squabble here." I have no idea what you meant by such a strange comment. Please elaborate. (diff) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Christopher Mann McKay (talk • contribs) 23:59, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, having two sub-articles on boycotts really would be a POV fork! I don't think that's what WAVY10 was suggesting though - looks like a misunderstanding to me. It's an easy mistake to make with all the reverting going on. Orpheus 00:09, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Orpheus and CMMK. Some editors are doing their best to solve problems here. Your constant removal of relevant views requires that certain adjustments be made to the information and structure of presentation. As far as I can see, it looks like AFA views will inevitably be presented far more clearly than some would like. But thats what happens when extreme demands are made. If you want extra support for a particular view, more support and clarity will be found. As it is, the article is growing more clear and information rich in terms of AFA views, and I know its a real shocker, but the information is becoming more and more solidly supported, which makes deletionism all the more wrong. The facts about the homosexual agenda, obscenity, pedophilia, and the link between homosexuality and child molestation are not easy to countenance for some people. Those items will probably be removed by vandals and POV pushers for as long as this article exists. But Misplaced Pages has mechanisms and protections that can deal with any such agenda. And I am working on making such trouble as positive in outcome as possible. Hal Cross 02:26, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Wikiquette

Please see Misplaced Pages:Wikiquette alerts#User:Hal Cross and comment if you feel the urge. Orpheus 09:52, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, any feedback on how to better constructively edit here will be much appreciated. Hal Cross 10:39, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Activism sub-section: Homophobia

What is wrong with using "Homophobia" as the section title? I see a NPOV violation in having "Accusations of homophobia," because "accuse" means to "charge with a fault or offense", so having "accusations" implies the AFA's homophobic views and actions are wrong or faulty. Homophobia, which means "irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals" is used to describe the AFA actions for that sub-section, as all the info in that sub-section is related to homophobia--a neutral term that does not imply something negative. —Christopher Mann McKay 10:57, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, I'm happy with homophobia - the change I made was an attempt to come down the middle instead. "First amendment rights" is too much of a euphemism. Orpheus 11:35, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes having accusations does imply that anti-AFA views are faulty. Its inappropriate. So is using the term Homophobia. It implies that the AFA are homophobic. Stick with specifics. The specific controversy is over first amendment rights, from all POVs. Hal Cross 12:43, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

No it isn't. The specific controversy mentioned is a private organisation labelling the AFA as intolerant for their opinions on gay rights. If it was the government telling them to put a cork in it, then it would be a first amendment issue. The first amendment doesn't apply to relations between private parties. Orpheus 13:50, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

To clarify, I'm talking about the CyberPatrol and SPLC parts of that section. The part about the SF city council is arguably first-amendment related, although the trial judge disagreed. Orpheus 13:51, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Maybe the AFA v. SF reference be moved to the "Legal activism" section? Although SF was criticizing AFA, the reference is mainly dealing with legal activism by the AFA. Any objections to moving the AFA v. SF reference? —Christopher Mann McKay 17:15, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like a good solution to me - they initiated it, after all, so although it is controversy, it's arguably activism rather than criticism. Orpheus 17:42, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

merge: List of American Family Association boycotts

These boycotts are already listed in this article. The content could easily be integrated into what is now a relatively small section. Some of the content may not be notable or require inclusion, and other parts are repeated here, so it should fill out the section nicely, instead of breaking it up unnecessarily. --Cheeser1 18:24, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

The main reason I'm in favour of a separate article is that it lets you list more boycotts and be less discriminate over which ones you include. I don't think that's necessarily a good thing, however! It was more a way to cut the Gordian knot of this talk page debate. If we can get back to a reasonable discussion over what's notable enough for the article and what isn't, then I'll be wholeheartedly in favour of merging it back in. On the other hand, if we're just going to end up with a comprehensive list of every boycott ever proposed, under the umbrella of not "suppressing" information, then it's better in a separate article. Personally I would prefer the former. Orpheus 18:35, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm all for making concise sections. There is definitely a way to condense the information by grouping it correctly and really clearly. I was never into huge lists of anything. The only reason for restoring the list before was so I could work on making it concise, total deletionism being completely unnecessary as usual. Hal Cross 19:01, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely Orpheus, I agree. However, we do not need such a comprehensive list. Misplaced Pages is not a newspaper, we need not keep records of all events. Instead, we are attempting to write an article about the AFA. We need not include the minutes of their meetings, lists of their protests, logs of their member roster, or things like that. Certainly, the boycotts can be mentioned, and those that have elicited significant media coverage can be mentioned - and they can be mentioned here, not in a laundry-list of boycotts. --Cheeser1 19:45, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm in favor of making the boycotts section/article shorter; however, I think if we are going to list the boycotts, then we need to list the reasons why the AFA boycotted the organizations, which makes it very difficult to make the information concise. This is why I created the separate list article and summarized the list article on the Boycotts section of this article. I believe this is the best route, but I’m open to other suggestions on how to deal with this issue. I think merging the list (in it’s current form) back into the article is a bad idea, because the section would be too long (and can potentially become a lot longer) and if sections are too long they should have their own article. We would need to shorten the article then merge it, if that is the consensus. As for notability, if the boycotts are covered by multiple reliable sources, then I don't see a reason to exclude any of them. If there is a notability issue with having a separate boycotts article, then we should nominate it for WP:AfD and get broader input on the issues instead of making that decision on this talk page. —Christopher Mann McKay 19:56, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

No, CMMK, giving rationales for the boycotts will make them all the more concise as its a type of grouping. It may also cause conflict though, because those rationales seem to be the main "objectionable" content of the list of boycotts. Misplaced Pages process may be able to handle it. I trust WP will make maintaining such information far easier when its rules have evolved after a few years. Hal Cross 20:02, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

An AfD is not how one elicits comments from the wider community (in fact, talking on the talk page is how one does that - an RfC might be necessary, but AfDs are not supposed to be there just to get people's opinions). Each particular boycott may not be notable - if they are notable in relation to the AFA then they should be here unless there is a huge list of notable/important boycotts. In all honesty, the details and specifics of each protest may not merit inclusion. Being mentioned on the news may be reliably sourced, but it doesn't necessarily merit inclusion. A string of unrelated or tangentially related boycotts doesn't necessarily meet WP:N, and while branching-off might save space, it doesn't change the fact that this content may not merit inclusion at all. --Cheeser1 20:31, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I had envisioned a concise section that explains the type of things the AFA boycotts companies for. E.g. for encouraging pedophilia, company 1, 2 3, for encouraging obscenity, 123 and for supporting the homosexual agenda 123. That could probably be done pretty concisely in a para or two and it doesn't involve removing AFA viewpoints. All relevant views can be added in the same way. Hal Cross 20:48, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

An AfD is how one elicits comments from the wider community for if the article should be deleted/merged; I know AfD is not for comments in general not relating to issues with deleting or merging the article. —Christopher Mann McKay 20:56, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I had envisioned a concise section that explains the type of things the AFA boycotts companies for. I don't think that's necessary at all, or a good idea. Much better to pick a few representative samples, based on notability, and then provide a link to the AFA's page that lists all their boycott efforts in case anyone wants to look them all up. Same as with the issues section - being comprehensive is not necessary. The problem with the grouping you're suggesting is that it leaves out enough information that people might get the wrong idea about individual cases, without solving the issue that there's so many boycotts it's not helpful to list every single one. Orpheus 22:59, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

We would need to shorten the article then merge it, if that is the consensus. I agree with that - the main difficulty as far as I see is picking which ones to include. Once we've come to a consensus on how many, then we can pick the N most notable and write a brief summary on each. That should keep the future length in check as well - if a particularly important or notable boycott comes along then it can knock the least notable one off the list. Orpheus 23:02, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

We should really go the other way - notability of each incident needs to be established. We can worry about how many once we figure out how many actually merit mentioning. --Cheeser1 02:34, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

OK, fair point. I think the most important ones are:

* WaldenBooks, because it resulted in legal action.

* Walt Disney, because it produced a lot of media attention.

* Abercrombie & Fitch, ditto.

* Target, to tie in the Christmas stuff.

* Ford, because it's a big campaign and a big target.

* IKEA, because it's international in scope (they use the same catalogues all over the world).

Orpheus 05:23, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Decency related boycotts should be priority. The AFA was started as a Decency promotion interest and anything regarded as indecent is key. Thus, homosexual agenda, pedophilia, pornography related ones are priority. Thus, Yahoo, Calvin Klein, Ford. There are other first amendment related issues such as the "Holiday Trees" boycotts that do deserve mention because they add interest and perspective to the article and touch so many people. Hal Cross 05:53, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Hal, the AFA's goals and mission statement are not criteria by which we include content in this article. --Cheeser1 03:08, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Orpheus - sounds good. If you want to do the merge, feel free. If not, I'll try to take care of it within a couple days. And I'd say leave the list put until we've got a solid version of the section in this article hammered out. --Cheeser1 03:08, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Selfpub compliant material and other sources

Hi Cheeser1. I think I have the information sorted out now. I just added some to the article. Please check it for appropriateness concerning the selfpub policies . I'm open to all suggestions Hal Cross 03:01, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

You've just added different self-published sources into the article, besides the AFA. This isn't an improvement, even if the text is longer or if there are more citations. --Cheeser1 03:28, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks again Cheeser1. I'll put the other non self-pub refs in then. Hal Cross 03:33, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Beliefs section

Looking at the lead and the beliefs section, there seems to be a fair bit of overlap. I think we should have a paragraph, two at the most above the title page which introduces the AFA and outlines briefly what they do and what they aim for, and then no "Beliefs & Goals" section. Thoughts? Orpheus 05:29, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

There can be a beliefs section with a similar format to this featured article . It could be more concise in parts but basically organization is what is needed. It would also help to place the beliefs encyclopedically in relation to majority Christian beliefs, just to give it appropriate context. The goals part could be joined with the boycotts section and additional prayer activities, advice about legal rights, charity, and so on, can be added also. Hal Cross 05:46, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Islam is a religion with 1500 years of history and a billion adherents. The AFA is an advocacy group that wants less smut and swearing on television. I think there's a bit of a difference in approach! What's notable, and encyclopedic, is what the AFA do. What they say they believe is useful background material, but it shouldn't be the main focus of the article. Where they stand in respect to mainstream Christianity is a useful set of information to add, although one would first have to define mainstream Christianity - not an easy task. Orpheus 05:53, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

There is a lot to be said about AFA in relation to their mainstream Christian beliefs. That will be very easy to determine with reference to the parts of the Bible the AFA and mainstream Christian groups refer to. Its how those beliefs are associated with the decency drive that is important. Christian groups have always had guidelines for how to deal with homosexual behaviour, bestiality, pedophilia, and so on, that involve prayer, chastity, and others that involve punishment as a deterrent. So there are comparisons and contrasts that will add useful context. AFA doesn't work on physically punishing such behavior as some other religions do, the AFA beliefs tend to use the concept of loving your neighbour and prayer for deliverance instead. Its an interesting subject and should enrich the article. Hal Cross 06:04, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

It's going to be very difficult to do that without any original research, but a comparison would be useful if you can find a well-sourced one to use. I don't really think that the AFA's views on bestiality and pedophilia are particularly notable. They're against them, like most of society, and I don't see any particular need to emphasise them in this article. Orpheus 07:16, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Orpheus and have attempted to make the correcting changes: diff. Any input on my edits? Any suggestions or changes? Thanks. —Christopher Mann McKay 06:51, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Orpheus, you seem to be making quite negative comments when it comes to presenting the views of the AFA. The information is all freely available on the web, and it can all be presented without any OR and without any spin. Its inevitable that the pedophilia and bestiality issues will be presented as they are key reasons for the AFA voicing opposition to the homosexual agenda. Sure, the vast majority feel the same way, but its the specific views of the AFA that need to be presented if we are to avoid information suppression . I think most Misplaced Pages editors would see that as only fair. All relevant views and so on... Hal Cross 11:21, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

It's not "inevitable" that the article has to include material on pedophilia and bestiality, and why the AFA thinks that having gay people out will inexorably lead to those things. What the AFA thinks on every issue isn't really encyclopedic - what's more important is what they do, and the opinions they hold that receive reliable third party coverage. Apart from aiming for a complete catalogue of their viewpoints, what's your reason for putting the material in? Orpheus 15:32, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

They are relevant views and when supported with reliable sources they explain not only what the AFA do, but they give views on reasons for why. Thats inevitable and encyclopedic.Hal Cross 16:17, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Removed mission statement of the AFA

In line with the Wikiquette recommendations of two seperate editors , I removed the AFA mission statement. If you have anything to say about that, reply here. Hal Cross 17:09, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Fine by me, but as a suggestion for the talk page, I think it would be more productive to have post-WQA discussion in a new section (like this one) rather than going back and adding to older sections. Orpheus 15:32, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

It would help if you took care to answer all questions presented, especially if the issue has been presented as a section in itself. Those questions are often highly specific, and stating you have already answered them is unhelpful when they involve new edits and adjustments that were requested by yourself in prior discussions. Attending carefully to discussion is important, especially when others are making the effort to make adjustments and answer your objections. Thank you. Hal Cross 16:38, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

What question in particular are you talking about? Orpheus 03:08, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

For example, the section on lead section improvements requests discussion on those improvements, that include information on the AFA’s fight against pedophilia supported by reliable mainstream source. The information was deleted by CMMK, without discussion. Your subsequent suggestions ignore the actual specifically sourced improvements made. Please make sure to discuss the specific suggested improvements, especially those where editors took the time to supply a source according to Misplaced Pages policies. Hal Cross 04:25, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, in that particular case it seems that you deleted the text "that promotes conservative Christian values." and didn't add anything - correct me if I'm wrong. In addition, you deleted five sources for the sentence fragment you took out. I don't quite see what you mean about the AFA's "fight against pedophilia" (a loaded term that should be avoided, by the way). Orpheus 04:34, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Ah, there was also the 200,000 members claim that you added (also nothing to do with a fight against anything). You already had a third opinion on this, from Jaakobou. Orpheus 04:51, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Pedophilia is considered indecent, wrong, and obscene by the vast majority of people. Or would you disagree? The fact is supported in that edit by mainstream source.

I removed the part on Conservative Christian values because the first sentence of the article should really be as neutral as possible. I could have placed "Traditional Family Values" instead as it is what the AFA state, it is more true to the title "The Americal Family Association", and it covers the AFA's broader concerns. It doesn't matter how many sources you or CMMK put there to try to keep it in the first sentence of the article, and it doesn't even matter if the AFA use the term themselves. Its still politically loaded. Instead of insisting on the term Traditional Family Values, I decided to simply remove the whole argument from the first line. I already said I have no objection to the statement being in the article elsewhere. But making a neutral encyclopedic statement in the first line is a good idea I believe.

The 200000 members figure is supported by sources that were placed into the archives without you discussing them. There are other sources that place the figure as higher, but I haven't pushed that point. So as you see, there are NPOV related issues to discuss here. Progression towards a more comprehensive article will be very difficult if you tend to ignore constructive suggestions. Hal Cross 05:39, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Pedophilia is considered... The diff you posted didn't even mention pedophilia. Regardless, I agree with your sentence, but fail to see the relevance to this article. The vast majority of people think kicking bunny rabbits is wrong too, should we put a section on the AFA's views on animal cruelty?

I removed the part on Conservative Christian... I disagree that it's a loaded term. The fact that it's used by such a wide spectrum of sources suggests it has passed into the vernacular. Is there any serious dispute that the AFA are a) conservative and b) Christian? The only people I know of who might dispute that are the libertarian wing of the conservative movement, who aren't keen on being associated with groups like the AFA.

The 200000 members figure You posted one source, the home page of a state affiliate of the AFA. That's not a reliable source. If the other sources are reliable, post them! Like I've said before, this isn't an adversarial contest. There's no scenario where you agree to reduce the membership claim from 250,000 to 200,000 if we'll drop a category. That's simply not how Misplaced Pages works. If the information you have is reliably sourced, stick it in the article. Orpheus 05:49, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Orpheus, you are wrong. The diff I posted does mention pedophilia . Its written very clearly. If you would care to look up the source and read the actual literature, you would see that the AFA runs boycotts to prevent pedophilia, not just because it is indecent, and obscene, but because it is illegal. I know you fail to see the relevance for the AFA pedophilia information, but the sourced literature permits it.

We can agree or disagree that Conservative Christian is a loaded term. The same goes for Traditional Family Values. My solution was to simply remove the whole argumentative problem from the first line. Its a very reasonable solution that I believe many reasonable editors would apply in this situation.

The figures I have are reliably sourced. I will indeed stick them in the article, and I'll make sure the facts are written very clearly. Again, vis the AFA anti-pedophilia literature, please do not ignore constructive suggestions that include reliable sources. Hal Cross 07:43, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

(od) Ah yes, I see the sentence you're talking about. For the benefit of others, the sentence is The AFA provides research and information on what they see as indecent influences, such as pornography, or what they refer to as the "homosexual agenda which they believe goes against first amendment rights and will increase the incidence of child abuse and pedophilia,", which was changed to The AFA provides research and information on what they see as indecent influences, such as pornography, or what they refer to as the "homosexual agenda."

The AFA are of course free to believe what they want, but this article isn't really the place for that claim, and you haven't given any source for it except their own web page. The place that claim belongs (if well sourced) is the article on the "homosexual agenda", which is already linked. Saying that the AFA runs boycotts to prevent pedophilia is definitely not a neutral statement, because a) there's no evidence they actually do it for that reason apart from their own claims and b) there's no evidence that it's an effective method of reducing pedophilia.

Regarding "conservative Christian" - does anybody else think it's a loaded term that requires removing from the opening paragraph? I'm not sure exactly what the reason for removing it is - it's used very widely in the media.

Perhaps you should just go ahead and put the figure (and reference) into the article, instead of continually saying how reliable your sources are. There doesn't seem much point discussing it until that happens.

Orpheus 08:52, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

You are wrong again, Orpheus. There is another source there which explicitly shows the AFA's concern about increases in pedophilia caused by indecent influences. Its a reliable source. In fact at the time I was referring specifically to the Misplaced Pages guidelines on reliable online sources: which says to use an online source about itself in combination with other sources. The AFA source in itself may even satisfy this guideline . In any case, you seem to still be lacking acknowledgment of certain facts about the edit I made, and I believe other editors would find that troubling.

I've already explained the reason for removing the conservative Christian line from the first line, but I will explain more clearly. There are other terms one can use, and we could argue all day over which. Having Misplaced Pages state that the AFA are "an organization that promotes Conservative Christian values" can be considered a narrow way to describe the AFA. Its a rather narrow view of the AFA. Traditional Family Values will be broader and more information encompassing and will take the narrow political bias out. The AFA often appeal to Muslims and other religious denominations. Their campaigns involve members of the public from all walks of life, who may join a boycott and never even consider conservative values, or even Christian worship. The AFA seems mostly to be about American Families, and Decency. Its fine by me to leave all of that complicated and argumentative stuff out of the first line though.

The reason I am discussing here now is to determine what sources I need to make the article more comprehensive, and to point your errors out to you. You seem to be blanket dismissing all AFA publications as if they are all automatically unreliable. They are not all to be automatically dismissed according to the Wikiquette editors and the WP reliable sources guidelines. You seem to have ignored points of discussion, WP guidelines, and sources, and that is quite unconstructive. Hal Cross 09:36, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

You've missed it, Hal. This entire discussion was basically about when you can use the AFA as a source about itself. To say "the AFA stated mission statement is _____" is about all you can get out of the AFA website. It's not a reliable source, ever, about itself. It can only be used when it is appropriate to say "the AFA says ____" or "the AFA believes _____." That is something that should happen rarely, and in all other cases, claims about what the AFA really is or what the AFA really does should be sourced elsewhere. To say things like "the AFA provides research" makes it sound like they're actually producing scientifically sound research - this is not the case. If you're struggling this much still with understanding WP:RS and WP:SPS, you may want to try to find an essay that can help you understand better - until then you might want to take a break and let this dispute go. PS I believe "conservative Christian" is a perfectly good term - it's used by the AFA itself, and by reliable sources, to characterize them. --Cheeser1 16:16, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

No, I believe you missed it, Cheeser1 (the main point at least). The whole of the above discussion shows Orpheus either ignoring or missing the fact that I had placed a source in to support the sentence. There is a suggestion that he or you could have made to state that the AFA are concerned about pedophilia. Its an arguable point. The obvious point though is that I am not getting recognized for using any sources other than the AFA. I appreciate your correction of the finer points of the sentence though because that was what I was requesting via discussion in the first place. If Orpheus and others could discuss the sources in the first place things would be a bit more productive. I don't need a break at all. I'm quite calm and you seem to be helping overall.

If the Conservative Christian sentence is good because it is used by the AFA itself, then it follows that the term "traditional family values" is even better, because the AFA use the term more often, and even more reliable sources also use the term. Hal Cross 19:54, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

First of all, Orpheus and others aren't here to be unproductive and mess things up. I haven't found a single point here where you've assumed good faith. They are trying to hold this article to the standards WP:RS demands of all articles. I tried to comment solely on the content at hand, and yet your response was still "but Orpheus is ignoring the facts!" You've admitted to not understanding WP:RS, but then you tell us that Orpheus is wrong and trying to be unproductive? You don't get to decide "what requesting via discussion." The entire article is always up for discussion.

And do not twist my words - I never said it was good "because it is used by the AFA itself" - you've taken what I said completely out of context. The only reason it's allowable is because of the secondary sources that just happen to agree with the AFA on that point. I was simply stating that even the AFA would not object to the term "conservative Christian" - and wondering then why you might do so. --Cheeser1 20:00, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

I am sorry but you seem to be telling me not to twist your words, and in the same post to be telling me to assume good faith. I am getting more mixed messages. I believe the way you have written the sentence above it is extremely easy to not understand what you are saying. And I agree anyway. I have often been using outside sources to support AFA sources. I do not object at all to conservative Christian. Its just that traditional family values is a more accurate term considering the scope of the AFA and their activities. I can add more sources if you dont think the sentence is getting too cluttered. Hal Cross 20:19, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

"Traditional family values" isn't an accurate term, though. Whose tradition? What sort of family? The term is so vague as to be meaningless. Conservative Christianity is defined here on Misplaced Pages in theological terms, which suggests that Christian right is the appropriate link to make. Regardless, the AFA are a (politically) conservative Christian organisation and the article lead should reflect that. Orpheus 20:35, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

To address the two links you posted: This one mentions "traditional family values" in a direct quote from the AFA's about page. This one mentions "tfv" in a direct quote from a senior AFA figure. In both cases, they are the AFA's own words. We need to use what *other* people say about the AFA, not what they say about themselves, whether in media they control or in a direct quote by someone else. Orpheus 20:39, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

This is actually an interesting part of the history or background of the organization. The Federation for Decency and ClearTV were more or less merged in the 1980s to create the American Family Association. It would help to state up front why they are called the AFA, and of course its because the prior organizations broadened their concerns to encompass more of the family values of the public who were interested in maintaining decency in the US. Conservative Christian is just a small part of that as the AFA is accepting of all faiths when it comes to boycotting and so on. The Christian Right term is in the box to its right anyway. Basically the AFA does far more than push conservative Christian values. Hal Cross 20:44, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

(od) That's certainly worth putting in the article, if you can find appropriate sources for it, but we're talking about the lead paragraph here. We're after a sentence or two which sums them up. A lengthy digression on what "traditional family values" means according to the AFA might be appropriate in the body of the article, but not here. From my perspective outside the United States, they don't seem to be doing much that isn't in the classic Christian conservative set of goals. Orpheus 20:48, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Orpheus, you reverted back to the narrow political fraction instead of the broader more accurate term . You stated that there were no independent sources. However, there seem to be two. Do you care to explain? Also, the term conservative Christian needs far more discussion than trad family values. Traditional family values is obvious as it related directly to the name of American Family Association. Its a simple explanatory statement that answers the reader's automatic question, "what is it and why is it called the AFA?". By placing traditional family values, the line is more accurate. Promoting conservative Christian values ignores all the other work that the AFA do, and it distorts the fact that the AFA appeal to the whole world regardless of creed, and non-Christian believers do respond with cooperation in activities because they also believeHal Cross 20:58, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

You stated that there were no independent sources. However, there seem to be two. Do you care to explain? - I already did, two posts up: .

Traditional family values is obvious - No, it isn't. I responded to that too (). Orpheus 21:04, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Oh, yes I see what you said now. Well I agree with Cheeser1's application of reliable sources, and I'll add a most definitely independent link there in addition. Its a really good one, and we can discuss it if you like. There is also a book reference that seems to apply but I'll keep it out of the sentence in the lead section as its going to make it far too cluttered: The Destruction of the Moral Fabric of America by Steven Toushin and puppy sharon (2006 page 140) Hal Cross 21:27, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi Orpheus. You made this editI believe your interpretation is wrong. I will not revert you though and will wait to hear input from other editors such as Cheeser1 on the matter of independent sources. Hal Cross 21:47, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

The Charity Navigator source uses the exact wording from the AFA page. Every media outlet I've seen calls the AFA a "conservative Christian" organisation. There's four quality references for that sentence, plus an extra one I posted after you complained on WP:AN/I. No other editors have come forth to support your viewpoint. At what point will you accept that consensus is for the "conservative christian" wording? Orpheus 21:48, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

No. Firstly I do not believe consensus should be used to trump NPOV. I will be patient and wait for other input on source guidelines and policies, information from other sources and so on. I believe the whole article is far too narrow and built like a big argument. There seems to be a general anti-AFA arrangement throughout. I know the AFA is not the most likeable organization but the article shouldn't be so narrow and accusative. The AFA may well be Christian right in outlook but there seems to be a core of love and good intention driving the AFA along, whether its from the organizers or the public. In fact, the AFA does seem to benefit society through advocacy and sticking up for at least some section of the population's rights and traditions. I am working to make the article far more comprehensive and inclusive of all relevant views. Wherever I see an area of the article that is narrow or argumentative I will work to find information to make it more comprehensive and encyclopedically broad. That is my intention from the first line to the last. Hal Cross 21:59, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Hal, the only other view you've been introducing is that of the AFA itself, which is not broadening the article in some helpful or profound way, but rather, violating the policy on reliable sources. If the reliable sources in the article make the AFA look bad, that's not our job to fix. The read draws his/her own conclusion based on the information provided by verifiable third-party sources, not the AFA. The AFA's views are not a "relevant view." There is no policy requiring us to be "encyclopedically broad" - we can't include viewpoints that aren't from reliable sources and verifiable in third-party sources. See also WP:UNDUE and WP:FRINGE, as well as the parts of WP:RS and WP:V we've already pointed you to regarding the AFA's role in its own article. --Cheeser1 15:07, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Cheeser1. I believe I have already explained my prior position more that once. I did think it rather strange that the views of the AFA are not to be allowed on the AFA article. It made it even more strange that some AFA sourced views were being presented, yet others were being removed pronto. I believe most people new to Misplaced Pages would consider it strange that the AFA website and journal would not be allowable as viewpoints of the AFA. As I have said repeatedly, I'm happy to provide other sources though. I will make sure to engage other editors in the assessment of which AFA sources are allowable for which views the AFA have. As it is I'll err on the side of caution. I know that "multiple or conflicting perspectives exist within a topic each should be presented fairly. None of the views should be given undue weight or asserted as being judged as "the truth", in order that the various significant published viewpoints are made accessible to the reader, not just the most popular one." And I will work carefully with the NPOV tutorial, especially with the recommendation that "It is important that the various views and the subject as a whole are presented in a balanced manner and that each is summarized as if by its proponents to their best ability." Hal Cross 15:31, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Excluding the AFA's own opinion of itself is not matter of being non-NPOV or of suppressing information. Please don't imply that it is. These policies only apply to reliably sourced opinions/perspectives, which explicitly excludes the AFA's idea of itself. If you're going to continue to insist that you're just working through your misunderstanding of so many different policies, could you not continue to do so by making edits to the article? If you have questions, ask for someone to adopt you and teach you how to make these sorts of edits. Once you have things figured out, then you should start contributing again. You've had alot of trouble grasping this stuff, and none of us have been able to help. We cannot continue to try to discuss content issues when you admittedly have not grasped the policies at hand. While you aren't required to know the rules, when a dispute comes up and you're informed of the rules, you ought to start following them. If you find this difficult to do because you just don't get it, you should admit that you don't understand the rules (done), and then stop making disputed edits (which you continue to do, instead). --Cheeser1 17:37, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Please Cheeser1. As I said, I will do my best to calmly and slowly use reliable non-AFA sources, and as usual I will give plenty of room for discussion. Hal Cross 17:50, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Lead sentence and citations

Regarding: The AFA provides research and information on what they see as indecent influences, such as pornography, or what they refer to as the "homosexual agenda."

The first citation (8), published by the AFA, does not state the AFA provides "research and information" on "pornography." The second citation (9) does not state the AFA provides "research and information" on "pornography" or the "homosexual agenda." In fact, the second citation, which I found on ProQuest, is a 200-word article and the only part that mentioned the AFA is: But critics were unimpressed. Rev. Donald Wildmon, the president of the American Family Association in Tupelo, Miss., told Associated Press that the photo would appeal to pedophiles and was "nothing more than pornography." (the article was about a proposed Calvin Klein ad. showing two boys who appeared to be about 6, one clad only in jockey shorts, the other in boxers, standing on a sofa and arm-wrestling.)

Should this sentence be deleted? I think it should, but I would like more input. Thanks. —Christopher Mann McKay 17:19, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Yup. Appears to be a misrepresentation of what the sources say (and/or synthesis). --Cheeser1 17:37, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

I said I'd apply better use of sources, and I will. Hal Cross 19:55, 30 September 2007 (UTC).

Until you do, Hal, what you have qualifies as original research and has no place in this article. --Cheeser1 21:09, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the extra encouragement Cheeser1. Hal Cross 21:34, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

• Compromise on the lead sentence

Hello. After discussion I made this compromise on the lead sentence . I decided not to stuff it up with links to sources for now, but they can be added if requested. Hal Cross 05:17, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Background

Hi all. I'm going to be working on the much needed background section. I think this type of article should have one e.g. ]. I think it can be achieved quite concisely, and will probably take some stuff from the Wildmon Misplaced Pages article. Any suggestions are welcome. Hal Cross 22:33, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Two comments - I think the Activism section is important and it should stay. You could take a couple of early-history type bits out of it and put it into background, but it's important to have that heading. Also, be careful not to overlap too much with the Wildmon article. At the moment it reads like a biography rather than a background, but it is a work in progress after all. Orpheus 23:03, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

I removed the section. The history of Donald Wildmon's life before he founded the AFA is not relevant, especially when someone can click on Donald Wildmon's name to read about it there. —Christopher Mann McKay 23:36, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

The information is relevant contextual information. You seem to have once again narrowed the broader picture. Hal Cross 05:17, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Hal, what are you talking about? Where does WP:N, WP:V, or WP:RS ask us to use unreliable or irrelevant data to avoid "narrowing the broader picture"?? --Cheeser1 05:39, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

The reader will want to know why the AFA came about, including the reasoning. I used information that has been sitting pretty happily on the Wildmon article for a very long time. It seems relevant as it explains the background of the forming of the AFA. I'm sure I can find sources for it and it will help the reader see the broader picture. You have already given me some good advice on your talkpage that I have just read. The reason I placed it in the article without sources is because it seems blatantly obvious that it is background to the AFA and helpful to the reader. I know that anything can be whipped from the article if it is not sourced. I was assuming good faith and considered that perhaps Orpheus, CMMK and yourself would be able to cooperatively add richness and comprehensiveness to help the article. As it is the information was simply removed. Fine by me, I'll just find the appropriate sources and add the information again. Any more suggestions from you on this matter as I add the information will be helpful. Again, my intention here is to make the article more comprehensive in information. Your suggestions for adding such information are welcome. Hal Cross 07:28, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

The article already states "it was founded in 1977 by Rev. Donald Wildmon as the National Federation for Decency" adding additional information on Wildmon's life post college is not necessary to explain how the "AFA came about." Other Misplaced Pages articles do not explain about the lives of their founders prior to founding the organization and neither should the AFA article. Again, if "The reader will want to know why the AFA came about" they can click on the Donald Wildmon article. —Christopher Mann McKay 08:48, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Ok, for now I'll focus more on other areas of the AFA's background until I have sources that show Wildmon has played at least some part in the instigation and growth in popularity of the AFA. Hal Cross 09:19, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

• Sourced edits

Hello all. I added some sourced information on the background of the AFA according to your multiple requests for reliable sources etc. There is more to add but I do believe I should take it slowly. There seems to be some problems with the activity paragraph that was already there, but I’ll allow you to comment first. Feel free to comment here. Hal Cross 03:23, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Hal, we've been over this. The term "family values" is not supported by sources or consensus. We've discussed it and the term is ambiguous, non-neutral, not understood worldwide, and inappropriate. There was an appropriate term already in the article, but you keep making your changes despite objections, violating consensus policy. We've been through this before. Do not revert a revert, and do not re-add disputed material. Please stop. --Cheeser1 05:14, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Hello Cheeser1. You may do well to wait an hour or more before making reverts as that will reduce the likelihood of you starting edit wars. Orpheus and CMMK seem to have also made that same mistake quite often. You didn’t even give me time to provide space for discussion . The "family values" information is supported by reliable sources and I can supply them if you wish. My main concern there was to avoid cluttering the line with lines of links. The term goes straight to the article in question and helps the reader. Concerning consensus I believe I allowed a reasonable and temporary compromise by allowing the conservative Christian term. I then made another compromise by allowing both terms at the same time. I am now disagreeing with your revert. Hal Cross 05:31, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

We've already had that discussion. Reverting a revert is totally inappropriate and should be reverted within an hour or a minute - you'd be the one starting a revert war, Hal, by blatantly going against the consensus process. If you have reliable sources that somehow clear up the problems with what "traditional family values" are exactly, you should probably inform the people editing the family values article. Using the term "conservative Christian" is not a temporary compromise, nor is using both terms at once. Compromise doesn't always mean "I get what I want eventually," it means that between the four of us, three have made a strong case for excluding such a biased term. You insist that it's fine, and even consider using both terms to be a compromise (even though the group is obviously conservative and Christian). No, Hal, that's not how consensus/compromise work. --Cheeser1 14:18, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Ok, for the sake of consensus, I agree that you can have conservative Christian. I offer you, Orpheus, and CMMK yet another compromise. You yourself, Cheeser1, have supported the term Traditional Family Values by improving the references , and have stated that the term is allowable because it is supported by secondary sources that agree with the AFA . Other editors here have stated that the term can be placed elsewhere with sources and that’s fine also. I consent to those suggestions. It may be appropriate with proper attribution in the background section or a similarly contextual area of the article. Hal Cross 07:27, 2 October 2007 (UTC)Hal Cross 07:55, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

(1) I removed a source that was unrelated. How does this prove that I "support the term"??? (2) I never said that it would be allowed. Properly sourced, neutral, unambiguous facts are what we deal in here. Even if you can source the use of the term "traditional family values" it's still an ambiguous, confusing, and terribly biased term. It isn't appropriate. I never said "the term is allowable because it is supported by secondary sources - that's necessary, but not sufficient, for inclusion. (3) Please stop taking what I say out of context - this is the second time you've done so. I will also, once again, ask you (1) not to revert a revert and (2) if you're having trouble knowing how to contribute constructively, because of your admitted misunderstandings of policy, stop adding disputed material to the article. --Cheeser1 14:18, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Hello Cheeser1. I am doing my best to present reliable sources as you have all been requesting so frequently for the past few days, and to make the article more encyclopedic. I believe my recent edits reflect that. I am open to any suggestion from editors from all over Misplaced Pages on how to improve those edits further.

I was abiding by the first line yesterday. And I believe that everyone else was happy with the first line yesterday. So that seems to be a consensus according to . I didn't take the conservative Christian away and replace it with TFV. I left conservative Christian alone as it was because I was ok with that consensus.

Then I considered a new situation that I believed would be considered better by all editors, which was to have the statement that says "the AFA is a conservative Christian organization". And then to say that they promote Traditional Family Values. Seems to be a reasonable compromise. You reverted, and I disagreed without reverting. I have followed the consensus process.

I'm deliberately avoiding edit warring by proposing compromise instead of reverting your revert. I'm also taking edits quite slow and leaving time for others to respond. And of course I made a suggestion towards another compromise. That seems to be a reasonable way of going about things. I am presently waiting for feedback on the compromise that I have proposed. If it is ok, then we can move on, or if not, then perhaps we can come to some other compromise.

If you would like to make a comment on the additional compromise and consensus I proposed above, feel free to answer. If you have any suggestions on how to improve the article, then again feel free to make those suggestions. Hal Cross 15:55, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

AFA and Katrina

Hello CMMK, you reverted my removal of the information on Katrina. I removed it because it is poorly sourced, and it is neither controversy nor criticism. It seems to me to be an unreliable statement. Why did you revert it back in the criticism section? Hal Cross 16:42, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

It's a controversial statment and it is not poorly sourced. Please explain why you removed the entire Boycotts section (diff). —Christopher Mann McKay 17:15, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Hello CMMK. I disputed the paragraph because the Wikinews seems to me to be unreliable as a source. Can you give me any information that demonstrates the reliability of Wikinews? Also, there doesn't seem to be any evidence that the statement is controversial at all. There are no other statements controverting it.

I didn't remove the boycott section for long, I just moved it to the operations section . Seemed to be more appropriate there. Hal Cross 17:22, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

When moving information, it is crucial that you do it in one edit, so as not to mislead or confuse others. --Cheeser1 01:33, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

I did state that I was moving the information pretty clearly. . I also made the same mistake as CMMK in believing information had been removed rather than moved. He didn’t move information in one go either but I don’t believe its such a crucial point. I find it hard to move things around in one go and I'm sure other editors do also. Hal Cross 03:05, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh, what does seem to be a crucial point is that CMMK restored a disputed edit (related to this section) back into the article just after you told me to stop doing that. CMMK's restore was a direct restore without adjustments whereas mine was a compromise based upon discussion and intended within the edit-revert-discuss cycle. I'm not criticizing CMMK exactly, just pointing out another inconsistency. Hal Cross 03:12, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

In reply to your statement about controversial statements CMMK, I agree that the statement is controversial and that you can keep it in. Hal Cross 03:16, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Hal, making an edit that you decide is a compromise is not a compromise. A compromise has to be agreed upon - that's what a compromise is. CMMK also reverted a part of my edit that I accidentally deleted (thanks CMMK) - he did not revert a revert, he reverted my first edit. If I had reverted him, then it would have been a problem. Please stop accusing people of violating a policy until you understand the policy in question. Thanks. --Cheeser1 03:33, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

I disputed this information . CMMK put it back into the article with no discussion. Hal Cross 03:36, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes Hal, but you still don't understand how this policy works. Whether or not something is disputed is not how we decide to leave it out. It's what was the first change. If something is not in the article, and you add it, I can remove it. You should not re-add it. On the other hand, if something is in the article and you remove it, I can re-add it and you should not re-remove it. That's what's going on here. Please get to know the process for developing consensus before you make more edits regarding disputed material in this article, and before you continue to have these discussions. We've spent more time on this talk page explaining basic policy to you than we have discussing the content in question (and that's between three of us). Please stop editing the article if you're having this much trouble with basic policies. If you want to contribute constructively, get to know the consensus-building process before you start making edits that do nothing but hold it up (and incorrectly accuse others of doing so). Your (admitted) misunderstanding of policy has brought work on this article to a stand-still - despite rapid amounts of editing, we're getting almost nowhere. I'm not going to continue to explain this to you because it doesn't seem to be helping. Please consider going elsewhere to help you learn about policy - you can be adopted by an experienced user or trying to read and study the policies further. --Cheeser1 03:49, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

OK, here's a solution. For now, I'll focus on adding reliable sources to the article. I will not add anything that has been disputed, even if I have made a consensus on that information. Any such information can be restored or added by you and other editors. I will stay out of any removal of information altogether, whether I believe it is a poor source, a bad edit, or whatever. I made plenty of good edits yesterday that made pretty big improvements to the article (four reliable sources ), I have a lot more similarly reliable book and journal sources and will continue to add them and keep them all open for discussion as usual. Hal Cross 04:07, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

PS, second thoughts, I will take a break for a bit. I have just found some more useful sources that I can add, and it'll take a bit of time to get them in good order. Hal Cross 04:22, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Hi again Cheeser1. Just for clarification towards cautious editing during busy times: You made this edit summary just after your rapid revert, saying "please do not re-add these disputed terms". So I believed you were emphasizing the need to discuss over and above the BRD cycle, that disputed terms should be discussed. In light of your cautious advice beyond recommendations here I believe that to be a reasonable assumption. I agree with that idea, especially when lots of edits are occurring. If Someone removes a part of the article saying that there is a problem with it, it seems more reasonable to me to discuss rather than simply to plonk it back in without discussion. The inconsistency I saw in your behavior was due to my mistaken belief that you were applying encouragement towards edit cycles that were more cautious and careful than BRD. Anyway, that cleared up, I'll add the new sourced edits when I'm sure they are really presentable. Hal Cross 05:41, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

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