Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 22:59, 3 October 2007

Sub-sections

Talk page sub-sections:

Epithets:

• prophet
• martyr
• fundamentalist
• terrorist
• clergy
• Ma malakat aymanukum

Translations:

• names
• God vs Allah

Citing standards:

• Citing Quran
• Citing hadith
• Citing scholars
• Partisan and extremist websites

Other:

• Point of view
• miscellaneous
• family tree
• Formatting articles
• Dates

New topics

• Archived sections 01

understanding-islam.com

The website is also acknowleged as a reliable source, as it can seen here . The website is associated with Al-Mawrid Institute of Islamic research and publication of this website in print form by notable printing house, makes www.understanding-islam.com a realiable source.

www.understanding-islam.com is available in print form from , , , , , and .

Version 1

Binding: Paperback

Publisher: Authorhouse

Date Published: 2001

ISBN 0759650837

Version 2

TITLE: Understanding Islam: Answers on the Web (Understanding Islam, Answers on the Web)

by Moiz, Amjad

ISBN 07596-5083-7

Publisher: Lightning Source Inc

Publish Date: October, 2001

Binding: Taschenbuch

List Price: USD 26.95

Also, publications, which are written and published with association to Al-Mawrid are also accepted as reliable secondary source. Kindly see here .

This most certianly is not a reliable source. The comment that says it is should be removed.--Sefringle 03:57, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Adopting Islam

So, what should we choose as standard?

• Adopting Islam
• Became Muslim
• Embraced Islam
• Reverted to Islam

Any other alternatives? From a Muslim pov, "Reverted to Islam" is to be prefered. --Striver 16:30, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

I would prefer "Embraced Islam" or "Converted to Islam". But, why are you asking? - Qasamaan 21:14, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

I would suggest "Professed Islam", "Professing Islam", etc. While "Adopting Islam" is OK, it does not necessarily indicate dual inward and outward adoption. "Became Muslim" is not accurate to Muslims, because of the belief that one is born Muslim and then may embrace, adopt, accept, convert to or profess another religion. "Embraced Islam" is a weak term in the sense that one may embrace ones enemies. "Reverted to Islam" is fine if one has been something else, and is considered as such, having been born Muslim and then come back, but that does not necessarily communicate with believers of other religions.

For me, "Profess Islam" is an accurate term for use by both believers and non-believers. It relates to the utterance of the Shahadah which is the simple and profound declaration of faith, the core of which is the kalima "There is no God but God, and Mohammad is the messenger of God." (retrieved from "http://en.wiktionary.org/kalima")18:30, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

"Profess Islam", etc. is a good term. It agrees with both the Muslim view (you are practicing the religion you were created as following) and the non-Muslim view (you are practicing Islam). Armyrifle 20:14, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't get why 'reverted to Islam' would be most accurate for the Muslim pov. In Islam the Arabic language is considered holy, and If I'm not wrong, the root for 'to become Muslim or convert to Islam' is /s-l-m/, which would best be described with a verb like 'he converted to Islam' 'he confessed Islam', 'he surrendered or submitted to Islam'...right? Til Eulenspiegel 03:25, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Muslims believe everyone is born a Muslim at birth, so therefore one who converts to Islam is really "reverting". Or so I've read. - Merzbow 04:06, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Shi'a Islam

People may want to comment here about the transliteration of Shi'a Islam. Cuñado - Talk 17:34, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Islamonline.net

This is not a reliable source. It should only be allowed under the conditions of Partisan and religious sources and Extremist sources. It should not be consitered scholarly. --Sefringle 03:56, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Scholars of Islam

The bit saying "Misplaced Pages can only quote renowned scholars of Islam" should be removed. Firstly it doesn't seem to have been added with any discussion, but rather at the initiative of one editor Aminz". I believe it is inappropriate for two reasons: 1) The phrase "renowned scholar" is contentious. An well known academic or writer may very well have something valid to say about Islam, but not be considered a "renowned scholar of Islam" by some. 2) This sets a special standard for Wiki articles on Islam, different from standards for other Wiki articles. To the best of my knowledge there is no "renowned scholar" requirement in Wiki policy. I believe that MOS should be in conformity with Wiki policy, correct me if I am wrong. There are numerous other problems with the addition by Aminz, but I only wish to address one issue at a time. NN 17:18, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

Islam-related articles on Misplaced Pages should employ whomsoever is qualified to speak with authority on matters pertaining to Islam, and that means possessing the relevant education and qualifications, and preferably using well known publishers. ITAQALLAH 02:33, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

"with authority" is a extra-Wiki standard, besides being contentious and hard to define. Also Wik has no requirements for "education" and "qualifications". These extra-Wiki ideas have no place here. NN 03:26, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Really, it should be obvious that there are no special standards in Wiki for Islam. The appropriateness of sources is determined by Wiki policies of WP:RS and WP:ATT. There is no special requirement of "renowned", "education" and "qualification" for Islam. I am surprised we are even having this discussion. NN 03:36, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

it goes without saying that a reliable source on a topic is in the form of a scholar whose field of expertise is that particular subject. examples include Wensinck, Watt, Esposito, who are experts on Islam. we can verify that they are experts, as they have the relevant qualifications in this field and are professors of the subject, and thus possess the pedigree to be cited as authorities. such academics typically have their works endorsed by reputed publishing houses known for extensive fact-checking. these are the indicators as to what makes a reliable source. ITAQALLAH 04:03, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

indeed, this is exactly as stipulated in WP:ATT:

Reliable sources are credible published materials with a reliable publication process; their authors are generally regarded as trustworthy, or are authoritative in relation to the subject at hand. How reliable a source is depends on context; what is reliable in one topic may not be in another. In general, the most reliable sources are books and journals published by universities, mainstream newspapers, and magazines and journals that are published by known publishing houses. What these have in common is process and approval between document creation and publication. As a rule of thumb, the more people engaged in checking facts, analyzing legal issues, and scrutinizing the writing, the more reliable the publication.

-- ITAQALLAH 04:10, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

"what is reliable in one topic may not be in another" Possibly, however what is reliable is still to be determined by WP:ATT and WP:RS rather than coming up with some editors' preferred requirements of "renowned", "education", "qualification", etc. etc. Rather than these the proper requirements are "trustworthy", "authoritative in relation to the subject at hand", "universities, mainstream newspapers, and magazines and journals that are published by known publishing houses" as given by WP:ATT and WP:RS. Anything besides these should be scrapped from the MOS. Note that these requirements do not exclude those who are not academics, etc. While academics and scholars can be RS, so can be others. For example Sean Hannity is published by a known publishing house, though he is not an academic and doesn't have degrees. But as per Wiki policy he is a RS. NN 05:12, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

WP:RS and WP:ATT are general policies. the purpose of this MOS is to be more specific. a measure of expertise, "trustworthiness" and authority in relation to the subject of Islam, is by observing the author's credibility and pedigree- which can only be verified by identifying relevant qualifications. these are extremely basic points. if you want to be employing reliable sources, then for history-related topics, you use qualified historians. for human anatomy, you cite the works and textbooks developed by qualified anatomists. with every field, you use those who are the experts and exude authority on their subject matter. with Islam-related topics, it is no different. an author can only be "authoritative in relation to the subject at hand" if he has some sort of basis for that authority- and that typically means a degree in Islamic studies. if a person isn't an academic, there is very little reason to believe why he is "authoritative in relation to the subject at hand". this is the standard that has been set across Islam-related articles, and so there is no justification for lowering the bar. these stipulations on what makes a reliable source in Islam-related topics are basic derivations from policy, and are not extraneous to or in contradiction with it. ITAQALLAH 14:53, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

"WP:RS and WP:ATT are general policies." Wrong! They are the applicable policies, even for Islam related articles. To be specific, you cannot remove material from an article saying that it violates the MOS, you have to show it violates WP:RS or WP:ATT etc. There are no special standards or requirements for Islam-related articles on Wiki. This page is the height of absurdity. It starts of by saying "The consensus of many editors formed the conventions described here" whereas in reality individual editors choose to come and make whatever changes they wish, for example . Suddenly now the sources have to be "qualified" rather than "renowned", just because one editor decided that is to be the standard. NN 17:57, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

""WP:RS and WP:ATT are general policies." Wrong! They are the applicable policies" - i don't see a contradiction between the two statements, and neither a contradiction between the stipulation of scholarship and what can be found in policy concerning RS. this MOS helps to specify in explicit terms what is an RS in Islam-related articles, which we would not necessarily define as explicitly in RS or ATT due to its broad general coverage. you are banging on about "no special standards", yet you have not responded to my arguments. the relevant passages as quoted above directly facilitate the specifications mentioned in the MOS. these are standards that have generally been agreed upon across Islam-related articles. ITAQALLAH 18:05, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

"relevant passages as quoted above directly facilitate the specifications mentioned in the MOS." That is your opinion. My opinion is that standards such as "renowned", "qualified", "education" etc. etc. are extra-Wiki as I have already mentioned. It would help if you read what the earlier posts said, so I wouldn't have to keep "banging". If you put standards in the MOS (as you have been doing) that are not the same (not 'directly facilitate' but the same) then you have to explain why they are the same. Phrases like 'directly facilitate' are weasel words. NN 18:12, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

"Phrases like 'directly facilitate' are weasel words." - of course not. re-read this: "Reliable sources are credible published materials with a reliable publication process; their authors are generally regarded as trustworthy, or are authoritative in relation to the subject at hand." this clearly shows that reliable sources are those where the authors are authoritative in relation to the subject at hand. as i said above: "if you want to be employing reliable sources, then for history-related topics, you use qualified historians. for human anatomy, you cite the works and textbooks developed by qualified anatomists. with every field, you use those who are the experts and exude authority on their subject matter. with Islam-related topics, it is no different. an author can only be "authoritative in relation to the subject at hand" if he has some sort of basis for that authority- and that typically means a degree in Islamic studies. if a person isn't an academic, there is very little reason to believe why he is "authoritative in relation to the subject at hand"." - you have not responded to this argument. ITAQALLAH 21:29, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, sure. For every branch of knowledge there are experts. It's just that, silly analogies with anatomy notwithstanding, you don't get to decide what constitutes expertise, Wiki policy gets to decide that. Hence all junk for the article needs to be removed. NN 09:40, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

you won't get very far by not responding to the arguments. ITAQALLAH 15:20, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Mind WP:NPA--Sefringle 07:30, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

This debate/argument seems to have fizzled out, but for what it's worth, it is clear that Misplaced Pages has obvious problems when it comes to proposing guidelines on which sources (and their quality, in the sense of them containing true or false information) should be included. Let us all employ a little common sense and - on the whole - only include sources that we know are reliable (in the sense of containing true information and being attributable to the correct author(s)); this should be the priority. If there are minority views (whether true or false), these should be included insofar as they shed some light on the topic concerned. This latter is obviously a vague and tricky thing to do, which is why I deem it to be of secondary importance. I agree with Itaqallah that academic sources tend to be the most reliable. MP (talk) 09:34, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Wiki policy does not get into comparative reliability. While it may or may not be true that academic sources are "most reliable", however sources are judged on their individual merits, rather than in comparison to other sources. NN 17:26, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

(Break indent) NN, I noticed you mentioned Sean Hannity. Yes, he is a reliable source, as a political commentator. We couldn't use him for something like, say,

Thermodynamics (from the Greek θερμη, therme, meaning "heat" and δυναμις, dunamis, meaning "power") is a branch of physics that studies the effects of changes in temperature, pressure, and volume on physical systems at the macroscopic scale by analyzing the collective motion of their particles using statistics.<ref="Sean Hannity">Sean Hannity</ref>

Someone can be a reliable source in one subject, while a complete crackpot in another.--Ķĩřβȳ♥♥♥ŤįɱéØ 22:09, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I do not knon why you got the idea that I was proposing something as absurd as using Hannity as a source for thermodynamics. The point I was making about Hannity was that he does not have a PhD and is not a "renowned scholar" but by Wiki criteria is a RS in matters political etc. If Hannity writes a book about Islam (and he may have written something about Islam in "Deliver Us from Evil") it is RS because of notability and wide circulation. If you find he is factually wrong, you can cite material contradicting what he says and delete. If you believe his interpretations (not facts) are wrong, and cannot prove him wrong factually, then you can cite other material contradicting him, but cannot delete. NN 06:36, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Matters political. Not religious. If Sean Hannity when out tomorrow and published a book about Muhammad, it couldn't be used as a source in the Muhammad article.--Ķĩřβȳ♥♥♥ŤįɱéØ 23:41, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

see WP:RS#Scholarship, which thoroughly justifies the requirements as highlighted on the MOS. ITAQALLAH 23:47, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Nayan Nev, You are the only user here who disputes that we should not use experts in writing Islam related articles. --Aminz 03:52, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Right now we have not reached the point of counting votes in favor or against a particular position, so whether I am the only one is not relevant. And even if one disagrees it is not consensus, in which case the next steps should be RfC or mediation or arb com. NN 04:28, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it is relevant. We are writing here a encyclopedia. Misplaced Pages is not a soap box. --Aminz 04:30, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Saying that I using Wiki as a soapbox is a silly and unsubstantiated allegation. This is now down to the level of name calling. NN 04:33, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

It is obvious that we should use experts of the field, those who have degrees in these fields, to write our encyclopedia. It is a complete waste of time to argue over it. --Aminz 04:50, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

If you believe that it is so obvious, you should have no problem changing Wiki policy. Please do so and come back, then I won't have any objections. NN 05:00, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Policies already say that. Please don't play games. --Aminz 05:03, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

"play games"??? A bit more civility would do no harm here. Where exactly do the Wiki policies say that RS should be "those who have degrees in these fields"? NN 09:47, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree, this line should be removed. Its effectively restricting sources to Muslims or people who are favourable of Islam: "Misplaced Pages can only quote qualified scholars of Islam". This line should be removed, OR define who a scholar is and ALSO list several scholars of Islam who are critical of Islam. --Matt57 03:59, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

a scholar can be one who has been educated in his field, publishes material in reputed academic press and receives academic review of his works (see WP:V and WP:RS). you are making quite clear in your comments that you simply wish to pick certain personalities to push their POVs. if no such personalities exist, you will attempt to lower the bar so that they are considered such (as you attempted with Arlandson). you must understand that Misplaced Pages aims to represent academic scholarship, for that is the mainstream of informed opinion as opposed to rehashed polemic. you must also understand that academics aren't soapboxers, they have varying conclusions derived from objective analysis which are not usually considered disparaging, because they understand the flaws of presentism and do not make presentist or strongly opinionated judgements, they attempt to analyse the topic in the light of objective academic research. for example, Crone at one point adopted the theory of Hagarism, though she wasn't criticising the Qur'an by holding that opinion - she just held an alternate view of the Qur'an's synthesis. in any case, your prime concern should be to represent academic scholarship as per WP:V, WP:RS, WP:ATT, WP:UNDUE et al. and not edit solely to forward a POV, which is currently the impression you are giving. ITAQALLAH 08:04, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I asked you to name some scholars of Islam who are critical of Islam. --Matt57 17:25, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

and i answered, in short, that such was a naive question and reveals a good deal about the motivations behind your editing, as others are starting to note. ITAQALLAH 13:54, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Itaqallah, your motivations are also clear - to put Islam in a positive light. So what? Everyone has different points of view and interests. Why does it bother you that I am critical of Islam? Naturally that will reflect in my editing as well. That is not an issue that should be of concern to you or anyone - please dont mention that again. Now I will ask you again: Name some "scholars" who are critical of Islam. Lets see if this defination means that you are trying to exclude people who are critical of Islam from Islam related articles or not. Its your motivations that you should worry about, not mine. I never said we should try to exclude people who are favourable of Islam. Why are you finding it impossible to name scholars who are critical of Islam?--Matt57 14:26, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

your attempted tu quoque is incorrect, my interest is in providing encyclopedic, scholarly information, whether or not i agree with it. your prime interest, as you continually imply here and with much of your other contributions, and as you are now conceding, is to engage in tendentious editing. i would recommend you reform this behaviour, as your search for scholars of a particular POV is an obvious derivative of this. you have not addressed my points (which i explained as reasonably as possible) which expose the fallacious nature of such questions. if you're just going to repeatedly ask the same inherently flawed questions again, then you'll probably find that such is just an obstacle for productive discussion. ITAQALLAH 14:54, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

It says "connotation of repetitive attempts to insert or delete content which is resisted by multiple other editors. " - I've not done so so please dont accuse me falsely. Now respond below to why we need a "Source" section for this "style" article. You have still not named any scholars of Islam who are critical of Islam. Why are you not able to do this? I dont understand. Is this a difficult question?--Matt57 15:14, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

OK, I think you are both stretching the definition of a scholar a little too far. A scholar is someone who is educated in his field, true. Where they are published is a little bit of an exagguration, and are a little too restrictive in my opinion. My personal opinion about Islam-related articles to balance the often favorable view of Islam given by apologetic scholars would be to quote muslim scholars who preach evil, and to quote so-called "radical" imams, who definently meet the requirements for scholarship. Yusuf al-Qaradawi seems to fit that description; he tried to justify suicide bombing, and he is an influencial Islamic scholar. As wikipedia is an encyclopedia that presents scholarly opinions and not just criticism, I think this would be better to keep the critics to the criticism articles and the scholars to the other articles, while filtering out bias and opinions. The articles about morality and factual accuracy of Islam are different, and for those, I think it would be better to quote both the scholars who are heavily used here and the imams who preach evil.--Sefringle 02:43, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

some interesting comments Sefringle. for Islam-related articles, i think that academic scholarship, such as University professors, people with qualifications in Islamic studies, people who get their works peer-reviewed and recognised in scholarly publications/journals, people who themselves may publish through such mediums also: these are the expert sources which we should ideally grant primacy. Muslim scholars whom you mentioned such as Yusuf al-Qaradawi are also reasonable sources for they too have an education and standing in Islamic studies, many of whom are also jurists. as for 'preaching evil', then i am sure you will agree that this is a subjective conclusion - what you may have meant is balancing of POVs in a manner prescribed by WP:NPOV. ITAQALLAH 13:54, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I have deleted the section which says that opinions should be included only from scholars of Islam. There is no similiar requirement in any other subject on Misplaced Pages. Do we have people saying that Astrology should have people who are scholars of Astrology? The only requirement is WP:RS. Also note that such manuals of style dont even exist for Christianity and Judaism. Here is a classic case because these people know that, anyone who is called a "scholar" of Islam is usually a muslim or someone who has favourable of Islam. FURTHER and the most important point is: the Misplaced Pages:Manual_of_Style does not exist for dictating which sources to use. Its only for aesthetics and Style Issues. The issue of SOURCES is already covered in WP:RS. This is no special requirement for Islam related articles to only have opinions from Scholars of Islam. As I said, this is only an attempt to censor information and make sure that only people who like Islam will have opinions included in Misplaced Pages. This is the reason why ItaqAllah couldnt name a single scholar of Islam, who he thinks is critical of Islam. I have went ahead and deleted this irrational requirement of "quotes should only be from scholars of Islam". FIRST, there is no agreement on what makes a scholar. SECOND, if people were really honest in their approach and transparent in their motivations, they would be able to name some "scholars" who are critical of Islam. Thats not the case as we can see. --Matt57 14:36, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

"This is the reason why ItaqAllah couldnt name a single scholar of Islam, who he thinks is critical of Islam." -- rubbish... if you ask fallacious questions, you're not going to get much of a response. "Here is a classic case because these people know that, anyone who is called a "scholar" of Islam is usually a muslim or someone who has favourable of Islam." -- your understanding of scholarship appears to be superficial. first, your assertion is incorrect. second, you seem to believe that an academic can only be for or against Islam (instead of, oh, reporting about it objectively, which is what they do), which is where the basis for these disruptive accusations of censorship fall apart. ITAQALLAH 15:09, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Address my valid arguments for - this is a Style guidelines. It has nothing to do with SOURCES. See the main Style guideline article. Do you see any discussion on Sources? --Matt57 15:23, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

It's mot that blanket. Some scholars do try to write neutrally not taking sides on whether Islam is good or bad, true or false, etc. I generally have alevel of respect for those scholars who do and their works. However you can't deny that there are also those scholars of Islam who present a pro-Islam bias of Islam in their works. They are not all muslim scholars either. There are a few non-muslim scholars who also present a pro-Islam bias in their work. But to get to the guideline, I think we need to categorize the Islam-related articles to better determine what sources are to be used where. On articles related to the history and the fundamentals of Islam, we should present what the scholars present as facts, but not the opinions and bias of the scholar if they have one to the best of our ability. On articles related to ethics and Islamic jurisprudence, that is not going to be so easy, and may result in there being no content if we don't present the opinions of the scholars. Contravercies will have the same problem.--Sefringle 00:51, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Guideline

Should we add the {{style-guideline}} template to the top of this page?--Sefringle 19:23, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Lets wait before we can get consensus: "The consensus of many editors formed the conventions described here," --Matt57 14:39, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Discussion of Sources

Discussion of Sources does not belong in this article. The Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style says clearly: "This Manual of Style makes the encyclopedia easy to read by establishing principles for its format. ". Specifying what kind of sources to use in Islam related articles is not related in anyway to an article's format or how easy it is to read. I have therefore deleted this unneeded section, not to mention it is a source of unnecessary contention. There is no need of any special guidelines for Sources on Islam related articles, when we already have WP:RS to tell us what makes a reliable source and what doesnt. --Matt57 15:43, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree 100%. - Merzbow 17:25, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

With the exception of very general points about some sources that everyone can agree on, like the Qur'an/hadith. I see no need to discuss any individual sources beyond that. - Merzbow 22:40, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Also, if there are any specified sources, they must be agreed upon by everyone (which is impossible in the light of the subject, as we can see above in some discussions). If there are any sources which are not agreed upon, it depends on a case by case basis and we have to go by WP:RS. But because there are countless number of sources to list, verify and agree on so that will be an impossible venture in itself. Basically we have to go by RS, which is the best solution. If anyone wants to list some sources that are agreed upon by everyone, you can do so on the project page, but not in this manual as its for formatting purposes only. --Matt57 23:24, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Citing the Quran

Please add your comments on this topic in the Citing Quran sub-project discussion page. → Aktar — 13:24, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

The location of Quran citations, not quoting the verse directly

In general it is considered good practice to place all the references (e.g the source where one got the information from) between "ref" and "/ref". In this case all references ae shown at the bottom of the page in a section called "references" or "notes".

However, on the articles related to religions (e.g. Islam) many scholars cite verses from the religion's holy scriptures, or sayings of an important figure in that religion. Thus wikipedians, quite correctly, have begin to either add references to the Quran, or even provide the verse of the Quran.

My question is: should these references to the Quran be put in a "ref""/ref" markup? Please note that the citations to the Quran are actual links using a template. Also, I'm talking about only when an author refers to the Quran, and we in wikipedia don't actually quote the verse. Thus a reference would look like this.

The Quran () teaches Muslims to deal kindly with their parents.

Or the sentence could look like this:

The Quran teaches Muslims to deal kindly with their parents.

One thing to be noted is that, often there are many verses in the Quran that are cited. Thus something could look like this.

The Quran (, , , , , , and ) commands Muslims not commit polytheism.

Putting the verses as references would make the sentece look like this.

The Quran commands Muslims not commit polytheism.

What do you guys think? Bless sins 14:24, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

It is preferable to use the inline citation method using the {{cite quran}} template. e.g.

The Quran teaches Muslims to deal kindly with their parents.

or

The Quran teaches Muslims to deal kindly with their parents.

The second example would look better as:

The Quran commands Muslims not to commit polytheism.

References

2. , , , , , , and
3. Verses on Polytheism. Quran 3:63, 4:64, 13:36, 39:67, 52:43, 60:12, 72:2, 72:20

→ AA — 01:27, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Qur'an verses should not be in the <ref></ref> system. They are not references. They are part of the content.--Sefringle 04:02, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Images essay

Can we establish consensus for the essay before adding it into the MoS. Even then it will only be an essay and not policy (or even a guideline). → AA — 08:14, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

• Include It belongs because of consensus established to include pictures through the mediation on the Muhammad, Kabba, and Jyllands-Posten Muhammad cartoons controversy articles. It also belongs according to WP:NOT#CENSORED and WP:NPOV/FAQ#Religion.--Sefringle 20:30, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

What essay are we talking about here?Vice regent 22:25, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Martyr

I discussed this issue on Talk:List_of_notable_people_who_converted_to_Christianity#.22Martyr.22 and Wikipedia_talk:Words_to_avoid#.22Martyr.22 (no one responded here). The concensus was vague, and seemed to agree that labelling "terrorists" as "martyrs" is unacceptable. But this is not our issue here.

I think the "martyr" issue should be moved to a more general article, as "martyrdom" is not unique to Islam, possibly to WP:WTA.Vice regent 15:55, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Similarly, the word "terrorism" should also be dealt by a more general article, to deal with all terrorism, and not just focusing on Muslim terrorists.Vice regent 16:12, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Moved from the article:

"Description of Muslims as "martyrs" is in most cases inappropriate, as it ascribes a meaning to the martyr's death which non-Muslims might consider an unacceptable POV. Terms like "martyrdom" are also best avoided."

A better guideline would be:

"Claims of martyrdom of some deaths of Muslims, must be made carefully. In all cases they must be sourced to a reliable source, and it must be made clear that this is the perspective of Muslims (not necessarily shared by non-Muslims)."

What do you guys think?Vice regent 20:03, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Islam cat. update

I've partially rewritten the criteria part of the Islam cat. subsection. I couldn't quite write the first criterion in the way that I wanted to, but I think readers will know what I mean. Feel free to change it. MP 20:20, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Page format

I went ahead and tweaked the page, to say that External links should go below the "References" section. I'm assuming that this was just a typo? If we need further backup, please check WP:LAYOUT. --Elonka 22:35, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Re: Muhammad

It seems Muhammad cannot be referred to as "the Prophet" because some people doubt whether he is a prophet. What's next, not being allowed to refer to Jesus as "the Christ" because someone people doubt whether He is the Messiah? If so, take a look at Summa Theologica.--Mostargue 22:10, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

For a start wikipedia does not refer to Jesus as "the Christ", and second using WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not actually an argument. It has been well and truly resolved that it is NPOV to include honorifics or qualifiers to Muhammad in an encyclopedia. Would you be happy if I add my own POV of "Pedophile Muhammad"? Since you have not brought anything new to the table I am going to remove your drive by tagging of the MOS article. Prester John 22:59, 3 October 2007 (UTC)