Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 11:26, 20 October 2007

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Wikia doesn't seem separate

Dear Jimmy Wales. your page says that your Wikia is a completely separate organization from this Misplaced Pages. But you are part of both. Another guy (an old partner of yours from chicago?) is a part of both. And Angela Beazley is part of both. Plus, aren't there something like 10 thousand links from Misplaced Pages to your Wikia site, where you make money from ads? There is a lot of talk on this encyclopedia about neutral view and not having a conflict of interest. But you make a profit from Misplaced Pages this way, don't you?

There's no way on Earth that Wales will respond to this. It hits way too close to home (and wallet)! --66.202.9.78 02:45, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Uhhh. . .what links are you talking about? And how would Angela Beazley being involved in both projects make Wales money? I don't think your comments make much sense. --Banana 04:04, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

"For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward."1 Timothy 5:18 WAS 4.250 12:23, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Some of the people are the same, therefore its the same organisation? Wow, that's quite the leap. --Deskana (talk) 12:53, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Both sites have the string "wiki" in their names too. Connect the dots, man. - Crockspot 16:57, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I would say it's "quite the leap" to ignore that three principals are deeply involved in both organizations, to draw the conclusion that the organizations are "completely separate". What part of "completely" or of "separate" are you having trouble understanding? --208.17.34.25 18:35, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

We should assume good faith. The initial question was concerned that Jimmy Wales' user page says, "Wikia is a completely separate organization," which it clearly does say that. Then it's pointed out that three key principals of Wikia also serve on Misplaced Pages's board of trustees. Then you all make jokes about it. I guess blindness is a problem on Misplaced Pages? --Earthboat 17:41, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

If you examine the makeup of BOD's in the corporate world in general, you will often find the same people on different boards of companies that are partnered some way on projects, or share similar goals. To the average anarcho-socialist, this would be evidence of a conspiracy in and of itself. But in the real world of business, it is just business as usual. - Crockspot 19:21, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I wonder if donors to the Foundation realize they are contributing to a "business", then? And why describe them as "completely separate", then, if they are partnered some way on projects, or share similar goals? --Earthboat 19:33, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm not describing anything about wikipedia/wikia, I'm just telling you that it isn't uncommon to find people sitting on several BODs. If there was something funny going on between the non-profit and for-profit entities, I am sure that the IRS would have already crawled so far up Jimbo's ass, he would be spitting out Bryl Creme. - Crockspot 19:44, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

People reading this discussion might care to read:

• http://wikimediafoundation.org/Conflict_of_interest_policy
• http://wikimediafoundation.org/Conflict_of_Interest_Questionnaire
• http://wikimediafoundation.org/Pledge_of_personal_commitment

WAS 4.250 19:29, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Well other all wiki's have wiki in there name so i guess it's to do with the mediawiki software Richardson j 03:09, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

So its impossible for 3 people who worked together on 1 project to go start another similar one? What projects have the Wikimedia Foundation and Wikia partnered in? Here is the Wikimedia Foundation's Mission statement, here is Wikia's About Wikia page. "empower and engage people around the world to collect and develop educational content under a free license or in the public domain, and to disseminate it effectively and globally" versus "supporting the creation and development of wiki communities on any topic people are passionate about." Besides the fact that they are both released under free content licenses I'm not seeing any similar goals either. Mr.Z-man 03:47, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

This is all well and good, but the initial question seems to be ignored. If there are so many similarities and cross-overs in leadership, why say that the organizations are "completely separate"? That just sounds like Jimbo is hiding something. I don't think it would be so alarming to say what the Misplaced Pages article about Wikia actually says: "Wikia, Inc. has close ties in terms of personnel and resources with the Wikimedia Foundation, which operates Misplaced Pages and other collaborative projects. Both use the same wiki software application called MediaWiki, maintained by the Wikimedia Foundation. Also, key players at Wikia simultaneously serve the Foundation in high-profile capacities -- namely, Wales (Chairman Emeritus), Michael E. Davis (Treasurer), and Beesley (serves on the Communications Committee of the Foundation and also chairs the Foundation’s Advisory Board)." It would seem that there's more trouble (with a capital 'T') right here in Misplaced Pages City than certain editor are even willing to consider.

That being said, I'd like everyone to take a quick look at the Board of Directors of the Linux Foundation. You'll see representatives from Motorola, HP, IBM, Novell, Intel, and Oracle. What you don't see are THREE representatives from IBM or Novell or Oracle (or Wikia). You get the difference? One arrangement is perfectly understandable and acceptable. The other orientation would be suspicious and cause for concern. --Libertyvalley 15:45, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

WikiMedia's evolution from amateur hour to professionalism and accountability has been slow but consistently in the right direction. I see nothing that indicates WikiMedia will not continue in the right direction. Michael Davis, for example, is bowing out of WikiMedia in December 2007, I believe, helping the COI issue. And WikiMedia just months ago hired on a professional to be acting CEO. We are getting there. See evidence here. WAS 4.250 16:37, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

If that 'evidence' of 'getting there' is written by the Chairwoman, and they can't even translate her words into decent English, I'm not sure they're past the amateur hour. And isn't that Sue woman supposed to be the executive director? Strange that they're coordinating an 'ED committee', then, right? --Be Excited About Reading 03:14, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Transparency and not wasting donor money on paid writers to perfect imperfect English in e-mail does not constitute "amateur hour"; but rather characterizes a lean efficient and revolutionary new paradigm for successful organizations that is eagerly being copied across the globe. (Well, maybe not, but my characterization is as valid as yours.) Sue is expected to be the next ED, but she is not confirmed yet in that position. She could decline. She could prove herself unfit. A better candidate could spring forth from god knows where. It's a process. It's not strange at all. WAS 4.250 03:55, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Who said anything about 'paid' writers? Any peon volunteer could clean up that confusing slop in about 14 minutes. Just to be clear, you think the use of 'Hmm's in the publicly-released summary of a board meeting is moving in the right direction? How is that more professional than at least leaving out the 'Hmm's? It's no wonder no outsider's wanted to be an executive director of this project for at least a couple of years. --Be Excited About Reading 05:10, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

People have offered. She prefers her current ... hmmmm ... style. Lot's of people want her unpaid position. It looks great on a CV. People will pay you for speaking engagements. The progress in professionalism is in hiring professionals like Sue to do what used to be done by unpaid volunteers like the current board members. When you are dealing with a serendipitous success like Misplaced Pages, the most important thing is to not make radical changes that mess up whatever unknown "chemistry" created the success. Unfortunately the success has not so far included sufficient funds for doing all that really should be done (like the foundation knowing the real names of wikipedia's admins). WAS 4.250 12:08, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

For whatever its worth Angela isn't on the Wikimedia Board and hasn't been for quite some time. In a few months the only Wikia overlap will be Jimmy. It would be unreasonable to expect that none of Wikimedia's trustees would have involvement with other organizations. Of course there are risks that trustes might act on behalf of outside interests, but that is why they do not act alone. --Gmaxwell 20:14, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

And the guy's question above still goes unanswered -- why does Wales go out of his way to say that Misplaced Pages and Wikia are "completely separate". Even people who are sort of defending the relationships that do exist are saying nothing to address the question. Why is Wales saying they are "completely separate" when they are apparenly very clearly not? --12.153.11.142 04:17, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Why would you ask such a thing? Isn't it utterly obvious that Wales wrote it because he believes it? In his mind they are in fact completely separate. Like for you your bedroom and bathroom are completely separate. While to me at this distance, your bedroom and bathroom are all part of your house and not separate. What is important is that the COI issues are well understood and are being handled appropriately as per the links provided. The whole point of anything being a COI is that the person involved is too close to the issue to make objective judgements about it. This doesn't magically change just because the person too close is in charge of something. I wish Bush could understand that! WAS 4.250 21:00, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

My questions here have been ignored too. What projects have they supposedly partnered in? What are the similar goals? Mr.Z-man 17:31, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Your questions are based on an offhand reply of mine, ie., "partnering" and "shared goals". FYI, I haven't got the foggiest idea what Wikia is up to, so don't start building a case upon my ignorance. I was just commenting about how it is not uncommon for the same people to be on several BODs. This is the second time I have had to qualify my comment, so please stop using my words to bolster your "case". (Probably why your questions are being ignored.) - Crockspot 21:04, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually, my question was more in reply to the reply to your comment. I'm not building a case at all - If anything I'm agreeing with you - they are not closely related. Mr.Z-man 03:14, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Going by memory, I believe I remember reading that Wikia has donated money to WikiMedia, that Wikia uses and has improved the copy-left Wiki software developed and used by WikiMedia/WikiPedia, that Wales promotes both Wikia and WikiMedia at events whether the event is for one or the other, that Wikia and WikiMedia both promote the free culture movement and copy-left copyright use. WAS 4.250 21:09, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

There is a quite thoroughly researched blog article that sums up the whole problem pretty neatly, if you ask me. It's called (redacted). I'd say the most damaging evidence is that there are nearly 150,000 links to Amazon properties from Misplaced Pages, and Amazon then invested $10 million in Wikia. Then principals of Wikia are literally guiding the Board of Directors and the ultimate content decisions on Misplaced Pages. With 2,000,000 articles, is it really necessary to have 7.5% of them (if you averaged it out) with a link out to Amazon or IMDB? I'd say "no", but it would seem appropriate if you were running a link traffic racket. Hard to believe there's not more outrage about this. It doesn't help that Mister Wales hired some 24-year-old to Wikia, then tried to "install" him on the Arbitration Committee, the highest authority on Misplaced Pages rules (below the Board itself, I suppose). This doesn't look good, and the fact that Wales hasn't even responded may be telling. --Tom Doniphon 02:15, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Considering that the Wikimedia Foundation goes out of its way to not get its nose in content disputes or decisions in Misplaced Pages, the rest of your post doesn't seem very credible. Nor is the fact that you use the appointment of Essjay to the ArbCom as proof of a massive conspiracy to milk link revenue for Wikia, because you're selectively quoting facts. You conveniently forgot to point out that Essjay at the time had been held in high regard within the English Misplaced Pages community due to his work within Wikimedia holdings, and that he was an administrator and bureaucrat in Misplaced Pages, prior to beginning working in Wikia. You also didn't consider that IMDB is frequently used as a source of data by "regular" Misplaced Pages editors, who couldn't care less about who gives money to Wikia. Maybe there is not an outrage because people don't take those intrigues seriously? Titoxd 03:28, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages talk:Reliable sources#IMDB WAS 4.250 04:17, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Folks, the deep reasons for the song-and-dance about never-the-twain-shall-meet are 1) avoiding "self-dealing" between a charity and for-profit corporation 2) getting people to work for free is very difficult and it's dangerous if the idea takes hold that volunteers' work is being monetized. Now, regarding "self-dealing", remember, though Jimmy Wales may present a guru-dreamer image for press interviews, he's a former options-trading firm employee and a reasonably successful Internet businessman. It is absurd to think you're going to catch him committing serious IRS law violations for a trivial amount of money. He's completely clean there. People tend to "think small", imagining bottom-feeding ways of squeezing some chump-change via tawdry tactics like spammy links or penny-ante tax tricks. That's not what it's about. -- Seth Finkelstein 19:05, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I am concerned that the Wikimedia Foundation has stated that, "The two entities, however, are distinct and separate with no managerial links", but the evidence shows that there have most definitely been (and for the time being, remain) three persons with managerial links -- Wales, Davis, and Beesley. Earthboat 17:24, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

That's artful phrasing, which comes off as much stronger than the narrow meaning it'll be given if you press them. That is, if you ask and get a reply, you'll almost certainly be told something that reduces to "Wales, Davis, and Beesley" aren't managers, so the statement that there are no managerial links is true. And of course it's true, since all it really means is that the paid employees who do the day-to-day operations are different. You're reading it as something like "no high-level links" - but that's not what it said. And of course there are high-level links, that's obvious. But their exact characterization is a bit more nuanced, which can lead to confusion. -- Seth Finkelstein 17:23, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Confusion, perhaps. Deception might be the better word. Too bad Essjay didn't ultimately slip under the radar... then there could have been four managers/directors/arbitrators with links between Wikia and the WMF. As I said above, look at any open/outside Board of Directors. It's rare to find so many people from one company either sitting on that Board, advising it from an Advisory board, or (if Essjay had prevailed) judging policies at the highest level of administration under the Board. The beauty of this is that Jimmy Wales not only doesn't see this as a problem, he flat denies (in his head and in his words) that this non-separation even exists! Too funny. I wish he would answer here, but he seems to be AWOL from this discussion. Libertyvalley 19:06, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

AWOL stands for Absent Without Leave. Why would Jimbo need your leave to be absent from this discussion? --MediaMangler 19:27, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

As I point out above, Jimbo has both legal and financial reasons to say what he does, so I severely doubt he'd say anything new even if he were participating in this discussion. Meaning the following in fun, what would you expect him to say? "You caught me! I never thought anyone would look at people who stand to make millions from Wikia, and Wikimedia eminences, and see the connections. And I would have gotten away with it all, except for those rotten kids!". I'm just saying that people shouldn't waste their energy on making a strawman he could knock over with a breath. -- Seth Finkelstein 22:15, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

The plot thickens. WAS 4.250 20:14, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh, this is all well-known. I have notes on much, much, harsher stuff. I don't go around posting it because there's really no point, in that if the original insider criticisms didn't affect him, powerless outsiders repeating those criticisms certainly won't make any difference. The monetization of Misplaced Pages via Wikia is no secret. It's just not the sort of chump-change methods people usually think of, since they're not used to the scale of tens(?), hundreds(?) of millions of dollars. Here, read this Business 2.0 article: Misplaced Pages founder hunts for gold "Jimmy Wales built Misplaced Pages into one of the largest and most collaborative sites on the Internet - but has yet to make his fortune. Here's how he plans to fix that." -- Seth Finkelstein 23:10, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Seth, Jimbo has done well by doing good. Where is the problem? (I know you think people are sucked into contributing based on their flawed perceptions, but I find that true of all of society.) WAS 4.250 04:57, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, I'm not sure this is an appropriate place to outline all my objections, but let me just briefly cite my column on the Essjay affair: "One of Misplaced Pages's major public relations successes has been in misdirecting observers into a narrative of technological miracles, diverting attention from analysing its old-fashioned cult appeal. ... A charismatic leader, who peddles a type of spiritual transcendence through selfless service to an ideal, finding a cadre of acolytes willing to devote their lives (without payment) to the organisation's projects - that's a story worth telling. But not abetting." -- Seth Finkelstein 10:35, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I remember reading that. Seth, it is good writing if the goal is effective use of rhetorical devices to produce an emotional response in the reader. But it is poor sociology, substantially misrepresents the evidence that I know about, and provides no evidence at all for its one sided over-blown conclusions. I believe you to be a smart and usually fair-minded person, so I'll take the time to respond to the specifics. Not for the purpose of winning debate points, but to hopefully open your mind to the idea that just maybe something (emotions?) is clouding your judgement on this at least a little.

• "One of Misplaced Pages's major public relations successes" What evidence is there that Misplaced Pages even has a PR effort? WikiMedia puts almost all its money into servers and bandwidth. Misplaced Pages, per se, is simple a free on-line encyclopedia. The Misplaced Pages community puts almost all its energies into the encyclopedia. A few members of the community volunteer their time in responding to press requests. Perhaps you are referring to Jimbo's frequent emotional appeals. Ok. Jimbo is good at public speaking. Doesn't sound so bad tho when we are talking about one guy donating his time asking others to donate their time. You make it sound like an organized conspiracy.
• "has been in misdirecting observers" Where is the evidence Jimbo is misdirecting as opposed to evidence that you disagree with him?
• "into a narrative of technological miracles" where is your evidence of this? I know that the media is all "oh" and "ah" over a top ten web site run on a shoe string budget and the remarkable unexpected level of accuracy in an encyclopedia that is volunteer written and self-governing. This is due to the confusion between non-governed and self-governed. Sort of like thinking that USA could never work because it was self-governing and lacked a king. Self-governing works. It is no trick.
• "diverting attention from analysing its old-fashioned cult appeal." Self-government does not equal cult religion. There is nothing to prevent the Misplaced Pages community from forking the database, or from organizing its own foundation, or from telling Jimbo he is wrong. We tell Jimbo he is wrong all the time. Cuz he is wrong lots you know. Well we know that too. But he serves a very useful function in the community right now and the community is better off with him than without him. He is not our weakest link by any means. Far from it.
• "A charismatic leader, who peddles a type of spiritual transcendence through selfless service to an ideal," He asks people to donate time they would otherwise spend playing computer games to help write an encyclopedia, if they find that sort of thing fun. I find it fun. You don't. Then don't volunteer your time.
• "finding a cadre of acolytes willing to devote their lives (without payment) to the organisation's projects" What utter bull. People doing what they find fun with others who also enjoy that activity. Its called a hobby.
• "that's a story worth telling. But not abetting."You tell a pretty one sided story. I wouldn't want to contribute to a scam, but I enjoy encyclopedia writing. Should I not do what I think is fun just because you don't want to do it? WAS 4.250 17:34, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, as to presenting evidence, the column was limited to around 700 words, which didn't give me a lot of space for a detailed presentation. I'd maintain the Essjay saga is in fact quite powerful proof, from his evident wish fulfillment to the at first dismissive, and then somewhat creepy response from Jimmy Wales. I read your reply, and in a sentence, I think that Misplaced Pages "works" (for certain small values of "works" ...) in fact for some very well-understood but not well-discussed reasons. C'mon, how many times have you heard "wisdom of crowds" and "emergence" and "peer production" and other such bibble-babble? This isn't even arguable. But in fact, it's an old story - sell people a dream, get 'em to work for no money because it's For The Cause, etc. I'm repeating myself. You could just as well say cults don't exist, because really, almost all the time there's nothing that prevents the cultists from forking the scripture, or from organizing its own religion (it's happened!), or from deposing the cult leader. Those people selling flowers at airports are right next to a huge number of police, they can leave at any time. I have a feeling we're just never going to convince each other on this matter. -- Seth Finkelstein 21:47, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Labels are a poor substitute for analysis. For example, calling the Catholic church a "cult" does not make it better or worse or consist of evidence. In terms of substantive objective facts; it appears that the problem for you is that we contributors are not being paid, Jimbo is reaping the rewards of fame, Misplaced Pages is not perfect, and you disagree with many of us that the copy-left free-of-charge content available on WikiMedia's servers has value. I am paid in fun. I don't begrudge Jimbo his fame, nor whatever benefits he can make the fame yield. I think the copy-left free-of-charge content available on WikiMedia's servers has value and is increasing in value every year. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, and I think we Wikipedians have put on a fine free feast of data for all mankind. If you think it tastes rancid, then don't eat it. But many people think it is wonderful. Here is evidence of that (quotes from contributors). WAS 4.250 22:38, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

It seems the main question was "Why does Wales write on his user's page that Wikia is completely separate?" That question fundamentally has not been answered, except for a comment or two saying that this is what Wales honestly believes in his mind. Considering the length and depth of this very conversation, there certainly must be something less than a "complete separation" between the two entities, so this calls into question either Mr. Wales' honesty or his intellect. Be Excited About Reading 04:46, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Old forum posts

Hello - I feel ridiculous presuming to comment here, but I have mentioned some very old forum posts concerning open-access journals, allegedly written by you, in relation to Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Georgi Gladyshev. They may not be relevant at all, but if they are you might be able to shed some light on the matter. Obviously you get a lot of messages so please feel no obligation at all. Thanks --TreeKittens 07:25, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Severe problems outside of Misplaced Pages

For the past few months I have closely been watching the website, "Misplaced Pages Watch" and its outrageous content. I am concerned however that Daniel Brandt is continuing to expand the website, and the list of real names and details of sysops is growing rapidly, aswell as the websites content overall. Something must be done about this as the growing hivemind section of the website is putting wikipedians real lives in danger, and I have emailed Jimbo to dicuss the growing problem. The website is proving just to be a wikipedia attack site which is going to cause nothing but problems to wikipedia and its editors. However there is no way Daniel Brandt is going to take this down, and I don't think there is anyway we can stop this happening. We need all wikipedians to keep their identities, age, pictures and locations secret from this man who searches forever through google to find them. We must warn the other wikipedians for their own personal sake. The sunder king 18:15, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I am not sure we should encourage people to remain anonymous when editing wikipedia, and I would strongly argue that for wikipedia to take such a stance would be counter-productive and could be seen as giving in to Brandt. However, discussing this issue is positive IMO, SqueakBox 19:02, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

• Daniel is doing an admirable job on his "watch" while helping to make the world at WP, a better place. We need people like Brandt, Nader, et al. There is more transparency when people are willing to use their real names despite the potential for negative consequences. The net is serious business. We should not be able to hurt people; especially not from behind a veil or a mask. Greetings from Bariloche, Argentina. Ciao! 200.0.236.98 01:27, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
• If you definitely want to edit Misplaced Pages anonymously, it's probably not a good idea to become an admin or other administrative enforcer on a website that's one of the top 10 most visited sites in the world. Outside observers like Brandt have their reasons for demanding more transparency from this site, and it's something that we all need to consider as each of us decides our own level of involvement in this powerful and influential project. Cla68 07:17, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Right to vanish

Note:I am Ionas68224

I am "infamous" on Misplaced Pages now, and I would like to just peacefully use my right to vanish and leave. I have been quite rude, but I am angry with my self for some real-life problems with organisation, my parents, et cetera (I am 11 years old). I would like to exercise my right to vanish by all my posts on talk pages (from the Ionas68224 main account) being signed ], all my pages to be blanked (so they cannot be accessed by Internet Archive Wayback Machine) and then deleted, also Category:Misplaced Pages sockpuppets of Ionas68224 and the sockpuppets' user-, talk-, and sub-pages to be deleted along with thwe main account pages deleted, except for the userpage. I want the main account to be renamed to User:Right_To_Anonymity, and my sockpuppets to be renamed to whatever you want. All evidence of sockpuppetry should be deleted. Oversight the diff of the renaming. Oversight or delete the diff that shows my sockpuppet tags and Suspected Encyclopedist sock tag. Please delete all my pages, sign all my comments RtA, and overrsight mentions of me or my bad reputation.

• Do not block me indef for this, because I may (just may) want to return.
• Do something like Wik, only even more covert, as I explained above.
• Do not make mentions of my bad history.
• Do make it impossible (if you can) to find me. All AN/I, AN, etc. threads filled out by me or about me should be deleted.
• Do make me as vanished as possible.

Please just let me peacefully vanish. I am also being cyberstalked and harassed by User:Harris Morgan, see RtA 23:04, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

If you walk away now and don't make another edit for a year or two, some of what you want will occur. The more trouble you make, the more we can't give you what you want because we will need to keep data of your behavior to help us recognise and deal with future problems from you. So just go. And good luck. WAS 4.250 23:14, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

But, will this happen? Please? Are you telling me to "fuck off"? RtA 23:16, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I am not saying "fuck off". I'm saying if you want to leave then leave. Continuing to edit wikipedia is not leaving. As for "Will it happen?" Not if you keep editing Misplaced Pages. WAS 4.250 23:42, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I think we should take a more accommodating view toward this type of request, at least if this is the first time "right to vanish" has been invoked. If the user reappears and resumes editing abusively after leaving, of course, that is different. It would seem especially approprite to accommodate a request of this nature in the case of a younger user, although of course do not (nor should we) really have any means of authenticating such a claim. Newyorkbrad 02:04, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

To put my two cents in here, if he wants to start off with a clean slate and become a productive editor, I think that that should be allowed; we can always use more productive contributors. However, if he chooses to come back as a POV-vandal or whatever, that is something completely different and should be dealt with sternly. Neranei (talk) 02:14, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I am Ionas Rand editing from the Clark County Young People's library. The only reason I keep editing here 4.250, is that no one will fulfill my right to vanish and my wish. I am leaving for an indefinite period of time, and if I decide that I want to edit constructively, I would like the account unbanned now "just incase" I do want to come back. I am still editing because people like Ryulong think that my block (which only was supposed to last a week) is an excuse for constantly harassing me and outting unwanted tags on my userpage. I admitted to sockpuppetry. Ryulong refuses to remove the Encyclopedist tag from my userpage constantly just because I said he should be desyssopped. Because of one statement, he constantly blocks me, harasses me, and makes comments like this and this are rude and unnecessary. If he was not an administrator, and he acted the way he did, he would be blocked. Then, he talks some bullshit about my grave and banana peels. It is people like him that cause me to act this way. I am a kid with lots on my plate, and it only further frustrated me. He also caused me to leave.

However, some people have been the candle of hope in a dark room. I would like to thank Phaedriel (talk) for always putting a smile on my face and also being a tenacious figure in this WikiPediTatorship, keeping her head cool in hot times. I would also like to nominate Switch for adminship, not because of his politics (which I highly do agree with, but not the reason), but for his great contributions to Misplaced Pages and his recognition of the Community as well.

User:Encyclopedist was also a very helpful user, and if I could, I would give him adminship, and unban him. Not because of his controversial statements, but because of his great contributions to Military history articles, and African-american topics. Sad he is banned, he seems apologetic.

I would like my wish to be fulfilled, and that's why I'm still editing. To get my wish across. --204

Insulting people is not the way to convince people to help you. Also, Right to Vanish is more of a request than a demand.

You're asking for logs to be oversighted, which is almost never done and requires a developer to do.

"Do not make mentions of my bad history." - Effectively impossible, we can't make that into a policy.

"All AN/I, AN, etc. threads filled out by me or about me should be deleted." - Some (easier to find ones in archives) might be courtesy blanked.

Please see m:Right to vanish for what is generally done. Oversight is almost irreversible, it will likely not be done. Most of your requests go far beyond what is normally done. Mr.Z-man 02:30, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Hello mr wales

Hello mr wales and other wikipedians, you are invited to join my new wikia project The Alien research wiki. It would be brilliant if you were to participate in editing. The sunder king 16:21, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Hello. I would like to say nice job for creating such an awesome site.

You did a great job in creating wiki! I saw the places you travel to and i have been to all those places with my mom. I love traveling too!Irishforever16 00:09, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Hi!

Jimbo Wales is the man. I love you for making such a helpful site! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.64.100.23 (talk) 01:33, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Beat it, Trevor.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 02:56, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Aplogize

I apologize for what happened with the Mzoli Meats incident. I overeacted. I didn't like the comments that you said, and I deleted the article WP:POINT. After more comments, I purged the password and removed my syrop status. Still don't agree with an article, but I'll deal with it. Jaranda/Jbeach56 01:42, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Quotations from you on Template:Fact

Hi. I suggested that your quotations be moved. There's no reason for just your opinions to be on section 0 of the talk page: it makes it look like they are more important than other people's opinions. A.Z. 02:47, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Wow.

Wow. That was fast. I changed the smiley face in comments to a sad face, and it changed back within seconds. I'm not sure whether that's good or a little sad. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.226.220.44 (talk) 22:18, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Make sure you read WP:POINT, and maybe even WP:WHY. Welcome to Misplaced Pages! =David_(contribs) 16:37, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

User:Daniel controversy and Edit-count wars

Dear Mr. Wales,

I do question whether the below person, 'User Daniel', should be so highly ranked in Misplaced Pages. Attempts at dispute resolution here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:List_of_Wikipedians_by_number_of_edits/latest

Have been met with underhanded responses, including:

--deleting requests for mediation --making threats of blocking users --deleting comments made by others --refusing to communicate with others

Instead, User Daniel has basically 'talked down' to several persons.

COMMENT: In regards to THIS edit:

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Misplaced Pages%3AList_of_Wikipedians_by_number_of_edits%2Flatest&diff=165596874&oldid=165595979

We find the user stating that use of placeholders is OK and he just doesn't want his name on the list. But checking the 'edit history' shows he deleted about ten names, not just his own, and did not use placeholders, and further threatened to 'block' any editor that undid that.

Now, I am going to say this: this is a 'poison pill' situation, and it simply is quite unfair to attach a lot of other edits. I could agree, in theory, to all the demands that this user made...using placeholders and not putting his name back. However, with the way he edited it, the actions and words don't remotely match.

Let me say this: I'd rather have the entire list deleted, than insist that we remove placeholders. Also, another issue: if someone dies or their account is no longer being used, yet they made 100,000 edits, shouldn't they be listed? In baseball, do we delete Babe Ruth from the home run list because he died? What is the point of this list, anyway? Who 'owns' the edit counts? Is this 'public' domain? Shouldn't it be? And trying to say 'anyone can add themselves or delete themselves' simply makes this list garbage. So, either we list everyone (using placeholders to hide those that do not wish to be listed) or we might as well delete the entire list. End of story.Ryoung122 10:20, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I removed one name (see my original edit), and I then reverted to my version when this user readded my name against my clearest instruction. Daniel 12:11, 19 October 2007 (UTC) Did it ever occur to you, Daniel, that it was NOT MY INTENTION to re-add your name? On a list of some 3,000 persons, I simply added back the 'placeholders.' All you had to do is replace your name with 'placeholder' INSTEAD of abusing the 'revert' power to make some dozen changes all at once, when only ONE of the changes is the one you intended to use. Further, this is a typical case where DIALOGUE would have ironed out this issue...once we realized that we were 'editing past one another', then a quick compromise could have been reached. However, two attempts at dialogue were instead met with deleting my message from your talk page. Such behavior appears to me to be an abuse of power.Ryoung122 00:20, 20 October 2007 (UTC) Now Daniel is blanking my comments in lieu of responding to my arguments. This is really what Misplaced Pages-speech-and-interview-givers do? Uh oh. --W.marsh 13:10, 19 October 2007 (UTC) The MfD was starting to lose focus, I'm guess that's why Daniel removed the section - the comments weren't centered around whether the page should be kept. I'm sure Daniel did not do it so he didn't have to respond to your arguments. Ryan Postlethwaite 13:18, 19 October 2007 (UTC) He also blanked comments I made directly about the page. At any rate, I don't believe someone with an obvious COI is a good candidate to decide what is and isn't related to the focus of the MfD... this isn't even to put him down, deletion discussions can often take unexpected (in a good way) directions from the various tangents people go on. Blanking comments, aside from obvious trolling/vandalism/etc., is not a good idea and can disrupt the gathering of consensus. --W.marsh 13:20, 19 October 2007 (UTC) Well, in that case, what part did you want restoring? Ryan Postlethwaite 13:24, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

In the interest of avoiding further drama, I'll settle for a link to the pre-blanking diff, so people can read it without undue history crawling. --W.marsh 13:26, 19 October 2007 (UTC) For further discussion, please see this link, which contained more discussion near the bottom of the page between User:W.marsh, User:Daniel and User:Ryan Postlethwaite. Ryan Postlethwaite 13:29, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

One of the two reasons I want my name off this list is because, nearly every media interview I do, the interviewer asks me about this list (someone must have forwarded it around through AP etc.), and they look at my number (whatever it is - somewhere in the 300's, IIRC), and imply that I'm the nth 'best'/'most powerful'/'most relevant' Wikipedian, something I'm sick and tired of explaining. I feel that it should be within common courtesy for me to remove my name from the list on this reason alone. The other reason, which is far more sensitive and will not be explained here, (IMO) justifies extreme measures. Daniel 12:56, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

If the goal of an administrator becomes 'maintaining power in media interviews', I do question whether this user has the 'greater good' of Misplaced Pages at heart, or has become a 'Power Baron' who has used his 'early' position at Misplaced Pages to 'lord it over' others. At a minimum, the above behavior is not what one would expect from someone serving on the 'arbitration' committee. Yes, I do risk negative consequences by daring to stand up to such bullying. However, I do believe that all Misplaced Pages editors should have the greater good of Misplaced Pages, not their own 'power' status, as their 'first love.' Matthew 6:33

Sincerely, Robert Young Ryoung122 00:35, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Please try Requests for Comment or the Arbitration Committee before posting here. Cheers. — Thomas H. Larsen 03:38, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Wow.

Wow. That was fast. I changed the smiley face in comments to a sad face, and it changed back within seconds. I'm not sure whether that's good or a little sad. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.226.220.44 (talk) 22:18, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I re-added this section which had been removed. A.Z. 04:15, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Blocking User:Rbraunwa's account

Thanks for blocking Robert Braunwart's account after his passing. He was a wonderful editor who added articles about New Spanish viceroys and expeditions to Misplaced Pages, researching the information in obscure Spanish histories. I helped him now and then with ethnobotanical information, such as translating American Indian plants names to Latin, and edited some of his articles when I had the time. He was a kind and considerate editor, carefully adding small pieces of information, over a long period of time, that have enhanced Misplaced Pages's collection of information on the Spanish settling of the New World, making our articles in this area a unique resource on the Internet. This summer I started translating older geographical works from the Spanish to help Robert a bit more with some of the New World Spanish garden articles. As I corresponded with him on the Indian translations, he had my e-mail address, and his partner sent me a notice of his passing. I will miss him a lot. KP Botany 07:32, 20 October 2007 (UTC)