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Revision as of 07:43, 25 October 2007

PR 10:48, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

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massacre title

You found 2 cases of civilians being killed and the said event being labeled a massacre, albeit controversially. I will not waste my time finding the literally thousands upon thousands of cases in which multiple civilians have been killed and the event has not been labeled a massacre. This is just silly. I find it surprising that these low-level unsupportable arguments are even being discussed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Joebloetheschmo (talk • contribs) 07:38, August 20, 2007 (UTC).

New Book

Thanks PR, that looks like an interesting book, and I will order the French edition (after checking out the author of course). It usually takes me a few months to absorb, think over, and then use any new material, and that's why I'm uncomfortably with internet quickie research. I tend to prefer to build up files off-line, unharassed by the stress of immediate rejoinders, and then go into a page with some selective edits which I'm then pretty sure of. I find this gives one a certain serenity even in controversy, because the work has been done, circumscribed by details, and, in case of controversion, can be defended without prodding the search engines. I appreciate book-sourced material, and that one touches on a subject which I have frequently read about en passant in many other books. Mind you, this is only a small corner of my mental world, and I don't have that much time. But I think in a long-term perspective, while living short-term!

Hope the mentorship is going well. You've certainly done a large amount of work round here, and I personally appreciate the commitment, (I think you've let yourself at times in the past get caught up in the toils of other problematical posters' haste and obstinacy, and gather you're edging your way to the ideal we all should try to pursue (ain't easy), i.e., a long, unhurried but serious commitment to getting things right. One of my intellectual heroes is Raul Hilberg, as you've probably noted. Never allowed himself to get rattled, never joined a camp, but looked slowly and carefully over the evidence, unstressed by possible complications, and, when certain, wrote to the truth of things. It's a tall order, and probably means less immediate engagement, but in the long run, it pays. I noted today that only 3,000 of 2,000,000 wiki articles are judged up to snuff (FA). We should bear that in mind. When effort is required, it has to be put where it will stand the test of time, and quality. Kerriist! I'm preachen. So apologies, and best wishes (and thanks for the tip) Nishidani 20:40, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

ps. One should be never blinded by a word. Take Zionists. I think that Zionist project had tragic consequences, and I would have much preferred that Jews remained in my world, wherever I happen to live, as neighbours than in Israel, for Europe is much the less for the loss of that cultural genius which flowed on with exuberant creativity into the veins of Western civilisation, as the the sons of victims of millenial ghettoisation gradually took up the torch of the Enlightenment and leapt at the possibilities it offered to a society rich in intelligence, but too often cramped of exploiting its full possibilities by the nature of its ostracised life. There were many many Zionists of great human decency who went to Israel with a good and idealistic will, or even out of shocked and desperate refuge from the deep antisemitic strains resident in, especially Central and Eastern Europe, evinced so mercilessly during the Holocaust. In the endemic conflicts that ensued, much of that originative spirit of liberation and idealism was put to an extremely hard test. So while the Zionist project and most of its political artificers stir in me a dour judgement, I try to keep that political and historical judgement clear of my feeling for the complexities many in those formative generations had to face. I think that, were it not for the stubborn acuity of conscience of so many Jews, many of them of Zionist or Orthodox origins, who have devoted themselves to unearthing the history of these events, we should be much the poorer. All this is small consolation for the Palestinians. But ultimately, Israel is a reality, and not a small part of the Palestinian struggle for its own version of a return to the land, and a state of their forefathers, finds sustenance in those within the world of Israel and Jewry who still bear witness to that tradition of intellectual integrity. Newspapers will tell you little of this, as of the world, but it's worth bearing in mind when addressing conflict in these drafts. What you see, as in Haaretz's forums, for example, is often not representative. It's just that ideologues are more nhighly motivated than the rest of us, and we do well not to catch the virus by contagion. Regards (sorry, it's Sunday and as a residue of childhood, the day predisposes me to orotund preaching!)Nishidani 21:02, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Just got your other note. David Vital deals with this in his works on Zionism, if you are interested in further exploring the theme. There were doctrinal reasons among the Orthodox for strongly opposing Zionism, and Vital notes that the majority of rabbis in Europe were opposed to it because it was a secular attempt to preempt what was the task of the Lord. I don't know whether you like novel reading but Chaim Potok's works (The Chosen) for example, often beautifully capture the tensions within American religious communities roused by the foundation of Israel.Nishidani 21:08, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Answered that further note on my page. I'm lazy and it's a tad late. Good evening for the mo'.Nishidani 21:29, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Arab Jews

The source you cite, and that Tewfik questions (with some good reasons, in the sense that the text you cite is self-published, even if it is by an Iraqi Jew) has less weight, in the literature (this is still an unresolved problem) than the following two: (1) Wilbur Crane Eveland, Ropes of Sand (Norton, New York, 1980, p. 48). (2) Rabbi Moshe Schonfeld, Genocide in the Holy Land (Neturei Karta of the USA, Brooklyn, 1980, pp. 509ff). Note that the second is from Neturei Karta, and thus could be considered as a fringe view. The former is by the US military attaché in Baghdad at the time, and thus bears more weight. However, neither can be used unless one goes to a library and examines exactly the evidence of the pages themselves. I haven't done this, so I can't help any more than this. Regards Nishidani 08:02, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

On the same note, a conviction by the government accused of persecution isn't helpful. Giladi is entitled to his views, and you to yours, but there is no indication that "a malicious Zionist conspiracy" is at all accepted in the mainstream. Tewfik 10:07, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Again, a "conviction" in 1940s Iraq proves nothing. Mendes is listing sources for the anti-Zionist beliefs, not sources "proving" that there was indeed a conspiracy. Nishidani's sources as well are controversial, and haven't been checked. If it was mainstream, it would be very easy to show that from some news piece etc. Tewfik 11:23, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks

I really do appreciate that Pr, and no doubt the others, who are somewhat worried by my ineptness in pitching in on that case. Thanks Nishidani 17:41, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Professor I believe the word is "ineptitude" although I could be wrong. Cheers Bigleaguer 20:13, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Faisal was trying to be king of Syria and failed. Yes. However, at that time, Palestine was/had been part of southern Syria and Faisal was the de facto leader of Arab nationalists. Later, the Mufti as a Palestinian notable became head with several titles of Palestinian nationalism, also on the strength of several appointments by the British. Palestine territory was defined, again due to the Balfour Declaration and the British delineation of Palestine. The reason the reference was put in, is that the previous editor made a point of declaring and contrasting the antiZionism of the Palestinians with their acceptance of "native" Jews (their term obviously). My point is that the statement is politicized, as the antiZionist movement was not in place at that time, and also not relevant to discussion of Arab Jews. In 1919 Faisal is as or more relevant than the Palestinian Arabs and to cite antiZionism is misleading. It is nonfactual to assume Palestinian Arab hostility to Jewish immigration at the time as the rule. BTW as you well know the 1922 deposing of Faisal was far from the end of the story. Faisal's brother became ruler of transJordan which had been eastern Palestine. Faisal became ruler of Iraq. The rivalry between the Hashemites and the various Palestinian Arabs at that time (term used to differentiate from Palestinian Jews) continues to this day.

Lough Neagh

I've just noticed that Talk:Lough Neagh hasn't got very far since I ran for the hills nearly 8 weeks ago. Well done for being so brave with it yourself :)! I don't think it's going to sort itself out in a hurry, so you may want to consider looking at dispute resolution. I think the most appropriate step would be WP:RFC. The article form tends to be a lot less adversarial than the user kind (IMO). Anyway, it's up to you. Good luck, Mark Chovain 10:05, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Don't have to ask my permission

Re blocknotes. My personal prejudice. I find long italicised texts ugly, and a clear distinction between main text (narrative) and illustrative quote (blocked out from margin), pretty standard in academic work. But, hey, this is a democracy. Ask around. I certainly won't stand in the way of any consensus on things like this.

No, haven't activated email. Still thinking about it, but it is against my principles, as explained. Cheers Nishidani 21:05, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Concerns

I am back now; anyways, some edits were brought up to my attention when I was dealing with the fires. First, trying to bring up past histories of users is not a good idea. No matter if it is a person you are currently debating with or not, that will just cause settled issues to be fought over again. Second, just because I am not here to enforce blocks or issue them doesn't mean anyone else cannot. All admins have my permission to block you if needed; all they need to do is just email me to tell me what happened. I am hope I am clear on that. User:Zscout370 07:43, 25 October 2007 (UTC)