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• AI-generated images depicting living people
• Blocks for promotional activity outside of mainspace
• Voluntary RfAs after resignation
• Proposed rewrite of WP:BITE
• LLM/chatbot comments in discussions

Sock policy and Good hand/bad hand accounts

(from User talk:Lar) I don't want to add to the AN/I thread because that will keep it out of the bot's hands for another 24 hours, which is not necessary, so I'm explaining here. Will Beback said: "WP:SOCK prohibits using a sock account to avoid scrutiny of your editing patterns. It also prohibits good hand/bad hand accounts. Both prohibitions seem to be involved here." To which I responded, that the prohibitions were involved, in that they seem to be relevant to the discussion, but as I discussed earlier in the thread, "Where in WP:GHBH does it say that you have to stick to your original declared purpose with an alternate account? Why should non-meta-policy contentions - not contravening policy - be handled by the main account? Isn't this precisely one of the uses of legitimate socks? WP:GHBH is set up to ensure admin candidates do not conceal their spotty record and admins do not conceal their involvement in issues where they use the sysop bit. Which of those is happening here?" Which is why I said that PM's behaviour was not in breach of WP:SOCK. Hope that makes it clearer. Thanks! Relata refero 13:38, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I strongly disagree with the above reasoning about policy (and also with wanting to have this thread archived when discussion isn't over yet). The sock policy is intended to protect longstanding editors (admins or no) that might have good reason to avoid being associated with certain very limited edits in controversial areas, (and I believe the original intent was to protect editors working in ARTICLE space, not policy space). It is NOT intended to give relatively new editors the ability to compartmentalize edits into benign and disruptive ones, or to shield scrutiny of one account. The sock in question here is not, in my view, a valid one, in that the primary editor is not that longstanding, and edits in the same spaces, and the sock is not editing difficult things where shielding from stalkers and exposers is needed. Ironically, it seems to be arguing in favour of exposing the very kinds of accounts it is using. The policy may need to be made more explicit to cut down on ruleslawyering, but I very much doubt it intended to be used this way. In fact, it may need changing completely to disallow socks that are not registered with ArbCom and strictly monitored... ++Lar: t/c 16:16, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

The trouble with your proposal, Lar, is that it's only enforcible against alternate accounts which candidly admit their nature. Here, the sock was only "caught" because he was forthcoming in private communication to the wrong people, a lapse of judgment easily remedied by the expedience of silence or a lie.168.103.150.1 07:43, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Lar, that's a massive change to WP:SOCK and one which I fancy you will have a hard time implementing as well as enforcing; and I want to add that it will not change WP for the better. As long as some editors persist in incivility to those who edit in their pet areas, I'm afraid people will want to have legitimate alternate accounts. Plus WP is not 'the encyclopaedia anyone can edit as long as they haven't edited it before logged in differently.' Relata refero 09:59, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't see it as a problem to employ an alternate account to edit in contentious areas. I don't see why so many people seem to feel so strongly about it. I don't do this myself (Disclaimer: This is my main account, and I have several others, usually created on occasions where I forgot my password. I do not violate policy with them). No more bongos 21:38, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Amir Abdul-Malik Ali

I've identified a number of single-purpose accounts used only to edit war for the last few months on Amir Abdul-Malik Ali (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views):

• Sindbad4086 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Mortimer Gleet (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Imhotep5 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Irydhan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Buster Friendly (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 98.207.54.164 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

For now, I've only protected the article, but am welcome to ideas on what, if anything, to do with the accounts. east.718 at 21:30, 11/3/2007

Review of Mattisse's Talk page

Mattisse was recently blocked by the admin LessHeardVanU after LessHeardVanU viewed the posting to AN/I I made several days ago about Mattisse's treatment of another user. The block was for 24 hours. However, after viewing the user's Talk page , I believe the block should extend further and a review of the user's sockpuppets should be made if technically feasible. Much of the improper conduct is directed toward LessHeardVanU, but extends to other users as well, including myself. Though LessHeardVanU is willing to look the other way, at the same time he is ignoring years of misconduct by this user and her recent insults to other users. The administration should not turn a blind eye to this kind of conduct. - Cyborg Ninja 01:10, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Included is a threat to user Blueboar, who was originally the victim of the subject of the previously stated AN/I posting.

Blueboar, you have no credibility with me. I will cause you endless misery if I am unblocked. Please make sure I am not. You are a hypocrite and I have no respect for you sanctimonious two-faced attitude. I did everything I could to get through to you to no avail. Pleaded with you for help.

Now I am saying, you better make sure I am blocked forever. I will never contribute anything constructive to Misplaced Pages again. It is in your interest to have me blocked forever. Remember that. So do it. --Mattisse 02:01, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Cyborg Ninja (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) neglects to mention that I also blocked their account for violating a warning I gave in regard to harassing User:Mattisse by attempting to create disruption on articles and in user talkpages previously edited or interacted with by Mattisse. Cyborg Ninja also left this message on my talkpage regarding said block - I'm a little confused that I am now being used as an example by Cyborg Ninja in a complaint regarding Mattisse... My review and block of Mattisse, and Mattisse's subsequent posts in relation to it with me and other editors, is nothing to do with Cyborg Ninja; but serves as an indication of the level of obsession this editor seems to demonstrate with the other. Whatever problems I may think that Mattisse has with their interaction with some other contributors I recognise that they produce a lot of good quality content for the encyclopedia. I feel that Cyborg Ninja should be encouraged to turn their attention to help building the encyclopedia and to drop the matter of the edits of Mattisse. LessHeard vanU 01:57, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

The specific edit in question is this one. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 01:57, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

That comment was made in anger, after I blocked, and was later rescinded and removed with the help of another admin. LessHeard vanU 02:00, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

That would be me I think, the two most inflammatory things are gone now... I'm not sure how this is all going to play out but I'd advise just waiting and seeing, for a while at least. Cyborg Ninja, if Less is cool, you should be too. Let's just everyone see what happens for now, eh? ++Lar: t/c 02:57, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm disappointed that an administrator such as you, LessHeard, would think that my actions are not in good faith. Anyone, frankly, can see how offensive and disturbing Mattisse's behavior is, and your attempt to claim that I'm somehow "obsessed" is not the type of behavior appropriate of an administrator. You yourself saw that my AN/I posting from several days ago about Mattisse's attack on Blueboar was legitimate, and yet you have never thanked me for notifying the administration it. Instead, you continued with your subsequent block of me to tell me to "use appropriate avenues." Apparently asking for an informal arbitration for Caisson (Asian architecture), and then a formal one, and then creating an AN/I posting after days of attempting to forgive, is evidence of "stalking" and "harassment" to you. You see, I believe that the stronger person ignores insults from others to them, but will not stand idly by when others are insulted and harassed. That is a quality of a strong, personable human being. Not an "obsessed" one. By the way, as for me leaving out how I was blocked, look DIRECTLY ABOVE YOU. - Cyborg Ninja 02:55, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

In addition, this issue is not resolved until other administrators become involved due to your conflict of interest, which you yourself cited in a previous discussion about a week ago. Even if there were none, your judgment seems severely flawed here and I plead to other administrators to review Mattisse's history, including 18 known sockpuppet accounts (and more), multiple conflicts with other users besides myself, and current use of threats and vile insults before considering this matter resolved. Once again, the type of behavior visible on the user's talk page is not at all indicative of a worthy Wikipedian contributor, and bare in mind the majority of the user's edits consist of adding citation tags, up to the amount of 300+ a day. - Cyborg Ninja 03:01, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

• I have removed the {{resolved}} tag as neither party appears blocked - nor needs to be. This matter is still open. LessHeard vanU 11:10, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't think anyone disagrees that Mattisse could definitely improve the approach taken but what I am seeing is that some attempt to improve things is already underway. Perhaps I'm too optimistic but I'm not sure that Cyborg Ninja's approach is the best way to go, I'd let this abide a while, as I said. Citation tags, if well placed, are helpful, they advance the improvement of the encyclopedia. We all do what we can to help. ++Lar: t/c 14:17, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't know who added the resolved tag, but I noticed that Mattisse mentioned she didn't know she was blocked originally for the 24-hour block, so maybe there's a bug. I don't really have an "approach" except to review Mattisse's treatment of other people through her contributions page because of the number of times I've seen other people have conflicts with her. There's a policy issue going on here with the administration -- and that problem lies with giving dozens of chances that aren't deserved. I'm all for forgiving people, but this is ridiculous. Mattisse had 18 known sockpuppet accounts, constantly fought with other users, said she'd vandalize and issued threats, was the subject of multiple AN/I's and RFC's, and repeatedly claims she'll leave Misplaced Pages in order to garner sympathy. It's very disturbing to me that the administration is unwilling to do any research. I have my own life obviously (hell, I just got laid last night), but even I'm willing to do more work and frankly a better job than LessHeard vanU here. I have tried to involve mediation in the Caisson article, which Mattisse rejected both times. I have tried to help on the drapetomania article, but due to Mattisse's pride was ignored. And yet, LessHeard vanU ignores this and believes that asking a question about old people on oil rigs is harassment.

Even though I tend to ignore insults to me by Mattisse and focus on her attacks of other people... One thing that is highly despicable about this entire thing is something she left on her talk page about how stupid she thinks my User page is. My User page describes my extensive, chronic and terminal illnesses. How could you possibly put my behavior, which has been entirely polite and civilized, on the same level? I was blocked for the same amount of time as Mattisse. If I said what she did, do you think I would expect not to be banned? Of course not! The vile words spewed after her block are not from just anger. They're from someone of unsound mind. The irony that she claims to be a psychiatrist is not lost on me. - Cyborg Ninja 05:28, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

The resolved tag was added in error, which I confirmed with the editor concerned after I removed it, and nobody was indef blocked. LessHeard vanU 14:04, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

CN- diffs, please, of where she's had a go at your userpage. I think it was some of your other comments (maybe on your talkpage?) she said weren't worth answering. She's not a psychiatrist, but a PhD in psychology. I don't think she picked specifically on your userpage at all, she definitely didn't say anything definite about any details on it. But if someone were to, it certainly wouldn't be for your illnesses;) It is you who was by implication ageist and sexist, making personal comments about Mattisse's age and sex, which is why you were blocked, as the person blocking you explained to you.Merkinsmum 19:36, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

The relevant comments attacked Mattisse's apparent inconsistency in claims about herself, not her age or sex per se. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 00:05, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

They're viewable if you look at the History of Mattisse's Talk page. It's pretty obvious. I haven't looked at the page for several days, but I imagine it would still be up there because she was not reprimanded for her conduct. I'm surprised that you would even ask, considering a comment you made supporting a banning of me about two weeks ago. And the comments I am referring to about her Talk page about me were specifically directed at my User page. Do your own homework, please. - Cyborg Ninja 05:05, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

User:Savignac‎

Savignac‎ (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

Has been making racist and anti-semitic personal attacks on my userpage, and the talk page of African_diaspora. I have tried to understand what this user wants to change, by he/she will not respond to my questions. It has been really disruptive to the talk pages of these and other articles. Please look at this users contribs to see what I mean. futurebird 14:53, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I expressed my concerns about the racism here. But, the user moved my comments to the talk page of the African Diaspora article and seems to be trying to draw editors from others articles in to some kind of flame war? I have no idea. futurebird 14:58, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Here is a diff and one more where the user is linking to other talk pages that have nothing to do with the African Diaspora article. futurebird 15:06, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I cautioned Savignac several times that his personal attacks and disruptive editing were unacceptable. He ignored my warnings; in fact, his behavior has become much worse. — Malik Shabazz (Talk | contribs) 21:23, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Savignac moved his edit-warring elsewhere and has violated 3RR. Please see Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/3RR#User:Savignac reported by User:Yahel Guhan (Result: ). — Malik Shabazz (Talk | contribs) 06:08, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I get it. If I'm not colored, then I have no say, no right to put my two cents in. I have to be a committed anti-white devil fanatic and join their wikiproject. I complain about antisemitism and am labeled an antisemite, by futurebird's defamation. Malik is an antisemitic NoI/Black Panther fanatic. I'm his boogie man. The odds are not in my favor. Savignac 06:21, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

No, you have to mantain WP:CIVIL in your comments, and discuss your concerns to try to acheive a consensus, something you haven't done. I should remove your last comment, because it is a personal attack, but I won't. Yahel Guhan 06:23, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Please, Yahel Guhan, let's give him enough rope to hang himself. — Malik Shabazz (Talk | contribs) 06:32, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

'Yes, let's continue framing the situation to our benefit and to his ruin--aren't we consumate actors?' Savignac 06:45, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Also hints that he is a sock, and we will keep coming back. ~Jeeny 08:20, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Sock of a sock, of a sock. What came first, the left sock or the right sock? An egg is a chicken is an egg is a chicken. I have multiple personality disorder, whenever I want. Ask a defunct website for clues as to my REAL ego. They know much more than you ever will, but alas, I killed them, in my fits of enraged jealousy over corruption and kickbacks and totalitarianism to boot. I dislodged a hacker's malicious invasions of user accounts, simply by being persistent in my attempts to whack the Antichrist. WP:DENY Savignac 08:30, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Your own words condemn you, this edit is quite unsavory, but I suppose you pride yourself on stuff like this. --arkalochori 08:39, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Maybe the irony is lost on you ironic people. I'm dispelling prejudice, by not acting or believing to the confines of your assorted bigotries. I'm at fault too, because I WAS looking for the attention and got it. WP:DENY. Savignac 08:45, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Where the hell are the admins? Wake up! Isn't there a 3rd shift here? My gawd. I don't understand this place at all. ~Jeeny 09:06, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

There is no "shift" here. We're not being paid and we're not scheduled. We're volunteers just like you are. If one of us happens to be around and notices something they act upon it. -- Gogo Dodo 09:27, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

He has been stalking me and making malicious comments about me, including that I am a nazi. I suspect this user is a sockpuppet of User:Fourdee because his arguing style is similar (arguing against the editor and "science" etc.) and his racialist opinions are the same. He also claims to be a newbie in one of the links above, but then claims to have been editing Misplaced Pages since 2003 a bit later. Alun 09:07, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I have blocked Savignac for 24 hours due to personal attacks against other editors. Any other administrator who is more familiar with the situation and feels that the block should be indefinite is welcome to reset the length of the block. -- Gogo Dodo 09:07, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

24 hours? He's done more than personal attacks! He's broken 3RR, stalking, Harass, WP:POINT, etc, etc. Sheesh. I get a block for a freakin week for saying f*ck you on my user talk page? ~Jeeny 09:12, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I am not at all familiar with the past history. I was only acting upon the last immediate edits, of which I put to an immediate stop to with the block. It was only after I issued the block that I discovered this thread. As I noted, another administrator who is more familiar with the situation (and happens to be more awake than I am at the moment) is welcome to reset the block for a longer length. -- Gogo Dodo 09:24, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I was kidding about the 3rd shift. I was being sarcastic. I really don't care about personal attacks, (even though I know that's policy, but I can take it), but the disruption. I understand you don't know the past history. At least he off for now. 24 hrs at least is good enough so I can go to bed now. Thank you for being awake. :) ~Jeeny 09:35, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I haven't gone through every single diff presented, but I did go through about half. This comment is particularly disturbing to me, and warrants a more hefty ban because of the magnitude of the flaming/trolling spewing forth from that one comment. This guy doesn't appear to be here to contribute to the encyclopedia - rather it seems he want to cause as much trouble as possible. We don't need users like this, they do nothing to promote cooperation for building the encyclopedia. Period. I'm going to extend his block substantially. KnowledgeOfSelf | talk 09:38, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I've blocked him for 800 hours. Don't ask me why 800 hours it just popped in my head. I felt it was more deserving than 24. KnowledgeOfSelf | talk 09:43, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Requesting unblock of 82.148.97.69 (talk · contribs)

This Ip 82.148.97.69 (talk · contribs) is the Ip address that is registered to the entire nation of Quatar (Population: 800,000) as backed by thousands of sources, and it states on the talkpage that this Ip should not be blocked for long periods of time, 31 hours at the most, Can't sleep, clown will eat me (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) has blocked this Ip for six months, and when other admins have blocked the Ip for this amount of time the block has been shortened. I am objecting towards this because that is causing problems for the whole country. For the nations sake I would be grateful if this Ip address would be unblocked, as we've been through this before and it certainly isn't right to block a whole nation, and even Jimbo said that. The sunder king 21:57, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Whoa, I've reduced this to a 4-hour AO block until we can get this sorted out. east.718 at 22:06, 11/6/2007

Thank you for your consideration. The sunder king 22:07, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Brilliant, the block lasted for nearly a week before we noticed. Hopefully the Communications Committee has been notified at least. FunPika 22:21, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I've done it already. east.718 at 22:27, 11/6/2007

Though in the same vein, the fact it lasted for a week before anyone complained suggests that either Qatari usage is very low, or the IP doesn't service as wide a range as suspected. ELIMINATORJR 22:44, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

It's still pretty serious. Remember this fun bit of publicity? east.718 at 22:50, 11/6/2007

Indeed; I was just pointing out the slight discrepancy. ELIMINATORJR 22:56, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

cough - 82.148.96.68 (talk · contribs) -- zzuuzz 22:31, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

What is wrong with the other Quatar IP? FunPika 22:42, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

At least it wasn't me this time. Caknuck 21:15, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Requesting Block of 209.175.168.14 (talk · contribs)

This ip has repeatedly and blatantly vandalized random subjects. Please investigate and impose a block.

User:Steven Andrew Miller

Steven Andrew Miller has created pages Don Draper and Roger Sterling, which are now in AFD. He created two subpages, User:Steven Andrew Miller/Don Draper and User:Steven Andrew Miller/Roger Sterling, which contain fair use images. I remove them, and he is persistently re adding them, saying "rvv". I have warned him, but all he does is remove the notices. Cheers,JetLover (Report a mistake) 03:56, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

When it comes to potential copyright issues, we don't play games. — Thomas H. Larsen 04:05, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, and he also removed BetacommandBot's tags. Cheers,JetLover (Report a mistake) 04:17, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I did remove BetacommandBot's tags. The errors that BetacommandBot alerted me to, I fixed. — Steven Andrew Miller (talk) 04:28, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

If a legitimate article draft is in user space, and a fair use image is eventually intended for that article, the right way to fix the draft is to switch the call from an image call to an image link by prepending the ":" character, as is done in this image link: :Image:Example.jpg. Then the fair use image isn't displayed in user space, but it is a trivial edit to switch back to a link when the article goes to main space. GRBerry 14:36, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

TfD assistance required

Please see this TfD. I have closed it as delete, but the link template does not transclude the same in each article, so I cannot figure out how to get AWB to easily replace it. The template is linked over 900 times and they all need to be removed. Please feel free either to inform me when the de-linking is complete or simply delete it yourself. RyanGerbil10(Говорить!) 04:17, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

\*? *\{\{nndb name.*\}\} * as regex maybe? I don't remember if AWB supports regexes though... east.718 at 04:35, 11/7/2007

It does support regexes... let me try this one. (I never could have thought of that on my own.) RyanGerbil10(Говорить!) 04:43, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Nope. Nice try though, thanks. RyanGerbil10(Говорить!) 04:47, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

OK, I've actually tested this one and it does work: \*? ?\{\{nndb name.*\}\} It does leave a dangling newline though. east.718 at 04:53, 11/7/2007

Yes! That's perfect. Thanks so much. RyanGerbil10(Говорить!) 05:25, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Ha, because of that, I made my 11,000th and 12,000th edits within three hours of each other... RyanGerbil10(Говорить!) 07:16, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Category:Wikipedians by alma mater

I would like somebody to please review ^demon's closing of Misplaced Pages:User categories for discussion#Category:Wikipedians by alma mater and subcats as "delete". This discussion involves nearly 700 categories, and as they haven't yet been deleted, I do not believe deletion review is the proper venue. If I'm wrong, please say so, but I find it very hard to believe that anyone could read this discussion (4 delete/2 rename/25 keep) as a consensus for deletion. I've left a note for ^demon, but he seems to be out for the night, so I'm asking for a review here. Note that I strongly supported keeping these categories during the discussion, so if I'm simply blinded by my own bias, feel free to point that out as well. The main reasons I do not believe ^demon's close to be appropriate is that 1) the discussion in no way favored deletion, and 2) ^demon nominated all of these categories for deletion just 5 months ago (COI, anyone?)- auburnpilot talk 06:46, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Maybe he shouldn't have closed it given that he himself previously nominated them and there are quite a number of these so it's not a simple close but reading through the keeps there are an awful lot of WP:USEFUL arguments backed up by "Keep per some other WP:USEFUL !vote". If he shouldn't have closed it to begin with then his talk page and ultimately DRV is a better venue for this. EconomicsGuy 07:04, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

My main concern is that nobody tries to go through and delete/depopulate 700 categories before this is straightened out. As far as WP:USEFUL arguments go, the only purpose of a category is to be useful...WP:USEFUL even says so. - auburnpilot talk 07:08, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Right, but it depends on the nature of the WP:USEFUL argument. The closer is right that the concerns regarding the nature of the usefulness of these categories were not properly adressed. In that sense the WP:USEFUL arguments are just as invalid as they would otherwise be. EconomicsGuy 07:15, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, several editors noted that the categories had been appropriately useful in the past, and that's just of the handful that chose to comment. No one provided detailed, comprehensive evidence to back up the usefulness claims, but it doesn't make sense to give one side of the debate an arbitrary burden of digging up a thousand old diffs and emails. The "concern" was "these categories are probably not very useful"; the response was "these categories have been and are useful." In these cases where there is no binary correctness on either side, the issue degenerates into varying standards and speculations of similar quality. There's really nothing particular about demon's standards and expectations to set his opinion apart from those of the other **bignumber** of editors who disagreed, apart from the fact that the former are notoriously outlandish. To argue that deletion might be justified by consensus would really be ludicrous. — xDanielx /_C 09:48, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

For the record he didn't argue that consensus was in favor of deletion so your last point is moot. He closed it based on policy which is also what the closer is supposed to do. Also, who asked for "a thousand old diffs and emails"? EconomicsGuy 13:20, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, demon's close was mostly predicated on insufficiency of evidence -- I'm just questioning the fairness and sensicality of such a demanding, partial burden of proof. "He closed it based on policy" degenerates into the oh-so-fun-to-revisit "policy says what I say it says and I'm going to draw some really outlandish interpretations and extrapolations despite virtually everyone else finding them absurd" brouhaha. — xDanielx /_C 09:13, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

This is one of the many reasons why WP:UCFD is so badly broken. It's frequented only by a small core group of—dare I say it—deletionists, and once they kill off a small category nobody cares about, it is used as precedent to delete plenty of other ones with colloborative potential. I have seen lots of strife caused, damage done, and at least one excellent contributor driven away. Perhaps a centralized deletion discussion is in order? east.718 at 07:23, 11/7/2007

All three of your assumptions are unfounded. First, the controverisal action of one editor does not imply anything about the state of the process on the whole. Second, UCFD is not a breeding ground for members of the deletionist cabal. For instance, the editor responsible for most nominations in recent weeks self-identifies as an inclusionist. I comment on most UCFD discussions and I am not a deletionist (I didn't even suggest deletion in this case). Third, what happened to WP:AGF? The argument of precedent is generally applied only in cases of clear similarity. I personally am not convinced that this was one of those cases, but that's no reason to paint the closer, and UCFD participants more generally, with that brush. – Black Falcon 07:48, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Frankly, I don't think any neutral and moderate editor (not that I am one) would consider jc37 an inclusionist, at least based on his activities in recent months (maybe it's simply outdated -- I wouldn't know). Perhaps the philosophy is "I am an inclusionist until I find a problem with an article, and I do that quite often" -- but to think that way is to confuse the exception with the rule. I was thinking of politely requesting that he remove the box to avoid misleading others, but I suppose it's not anyone's business. — xDanielx /_C 09:48, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

When did I ever say anything about you, jc37 or ^demon? I was just making an observation about the process as a whole. east.718 at 16:21, 11/7/2007

I was commenting response to your "one of the many reasons why WP:UCFD is so badly broken" and "frequented only by a small core group of ... deletionists" comments. – Black Falcon 16:59, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

One of these days, we'll find someone who actually does research to back up their accusations. (Actually I did, and gave the user a Barnstar for it.) My edit history is there for the world to see, and yet I get accused of being a deletionist for "pruning the bushes". One thing that's great about it though, is that it gives me a tool with which to immediately identify the "IWANTIT" commenters. I would presume that those who would use user categories for collaboration are also those who would do something as simple as check recent edit history before making blanket accusations. - jc37 20:35, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

What in your recent editing history (which I have looked into multiple times, though admittedly I didn't feel compelled to spend hours analyzing it in detail) suggests anything contrary to what I said? — xDanielx /_C 00:22, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Deletion review is not the proper venue at this time because there hasn't been opportunity to discuss the matter with the closer. While I understand the desire to avoid having all of these categories emptied, I think this AN/I thread is premature:

• The categories have not been listed at WP:CFD/WU;
• The bot operator who usually handles the emptying, renaming, and merging of user categories is aware of the controversy;
• The closer has been notified that his decision is being challenged on his talk page and is unlikely to use his bot (User:^demonBot2) to empty the category until (or unless) a resolution is reached.

– Black Falcon 07:54, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I apologize for being unable to reply last night. After closing that UCFD, I had every intention of coming to ANI myself and putting up a notice, as I was sure it was going to be controversial. However, I stepped out for a cigarette, one thing led to another, and I found myself waking up and rushing out the door to class. And such, here I am.

I closed the UCFD this way for several reasons, that I detailed in my closing rationale (which I won't reproduce here, but here's a diff). First and foremost is the issues of usefulness. It has been a long-established precedent on UCFD that user categories need to have a least some modicum of collaborative nature. As a closer, I don't ask for proof of much, just a little bit to say "This is being used for collaboration." Sadly, no evidence was forthcoming. This group of categories repeatedly has not been able to produce any evidence that these categories are being used for anything above and beyond identification. Show me a few diffs (where members are collaborating because they found each other through the category), and I'll be convinced. Secondly, I saw a great number of WP:ILIKEIT and WP:ILIKEITTOO votes, which did not play into my rationale to close as such. I read the arguments for renaming, and I declined to close it that way because of active resistance to the idea with relevant arguments (it's true, being a member of a university does not imply interest, I don't want to collaborate on my university's article for sure...). Finally, the high school decision played into my closing rationale to some extent, as I felt the arguments played out there were particularly relevant, as the scope of categories is almost identical (the difference being a few years' age). I was well aware that I closed against consensus, but I felt I was acting in Misplaced Pages's best interest, trying to uphold policy and tradition, and try to move us close to the goal of improving the encyclopedia, rather than becoming a social networking website. ^demon 15:33, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

"I was well aware that I closed against consensus..." Then you shouldn't have closed the discussion, especially since you clearly cannot be considered a neutral admin on this issue. It is not the job of the closing admin to interject their own opinion, effectively overriding the community's. Several users have stated they have used these categories, myself included, but I have never gone to a user's talk page and said "Hey, I found you in Category:Wikipedians by alma mater: XYZ". There is no way to substantiate the claim. Likewise, there is no evidence these categories are not used collaboratively, this closure was against consensus, and based on policy that was specifically refuted in the discussion. - auburnpilot talk 16:27, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

"I was well aware that I closed against consensus..." Then you did the wrong thing, admins are not empowered to do whatever they like. See you at DRV :) User:Veesicle 16:42, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

This is totally untrue. It is the responsibility of a closing admin to close based on policy, not consensus. If consensus conflicts with policy, policy should be enforced until such a time as the policy is changed. Corvus cornix 17:14, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

If consensus is against policy then the policy needs to change or WP:IAR. KnightLago 17:24, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

An admin who closes any xfD discussion in violation of policy should expect to see the article taken to WP:DRV and have him/herself slapped with a trout. Corvus cornix 17:38, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Consensus was not against policy. ^demon may believe that these categories related somehow to a social network, but his opinion should not cloud his judgment when so many users have stated they believe these are for a collaborative function, not social networking. - auburnpilot talk 17:28, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I haven't investigated this particular case, I'm merely trying to point out to Veesicle that it's policy that comes first, not consensus. Corvus cornix 17:37, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Veesicle (talk · contribs) has listed this at DRV: Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Log/2007 November 7. - auburnpilot talk 16:55, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Some of you seem to have not actually read WP:USEFUL in awhile. (I'll put the important part in bold.) "There are some pages within Misplaced Pages which are supposed to be useful navigation tools and nothing more, disambiguation pages, categories, and redirects for instance, so usefulness is the basis of their inclusion." User categories fall within this. To say that USEFUL is not a valid argument at UCFD when USEFUL itself contradicts you (!) is absolutely Orwellian. So there was, in fact, a crystal clear consensus grounded in policy. Because this out-of-policy, anti-consensus, anti-collaboration action will also anger many of the thousands of users in these categories (I'm not one of them, incidentally) this is one of the worst examples of abusive use of administrator tools that I've ever seen. --JayHenry 17:44, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

WP:CORP and advertisements like Four Seasons Hotels and Resorts

I have already complained that wikipedia is used for advertisement by writing articles claverly and professionally so that they look like encyclopedia articles. Instead of narrating current incidents, I would like to request to read 'SD tags' section on my talk page. Please note that I tagging articles which are already tagged as COI. Thanks. abhih 06:56, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

User: ForeignerFromTheEast=User: Mr. Neutron and others

• Meatpuppeteering

Several users: ForeignerFromTheEast, Laveol, GriefForTheSouth, Lantonov and Jingiby are jointly involved in a systematic pov pushing, specificaly in the articles related to Republic of Macedonia or Ethnic Macedonians.

• Posible sock

Some of them frequently move their usernames to new ones: ForeignerFromTheEast has been formerly named Mr. Neutron, while GriefForTheSouth has been formerly Jackanapes, Wickedpedian and Vulgarian. The latter was warned by an administrator to stick to a single username once for all.

• Dubious sources

In numerous cases, they provide (or advocate) highly questionable sources like personal nationalist websites, such as the one used in Krste Misirkov, or private blogs, as in ITRO, or in many cases- they dont provide sources at all. Some of their sources: private nationalist website, again, personal blog, geocities page, some strange word document etc. They almost turned National Liberation War of Macedonia into their political pamphlet. This led to protests from other editors, vandal retaliations and finally admin interventiions and page protections. Some of the statements that they've added there can be described as neonazi (for example: "the German and the Bulgarian WWII armies were greeted by the population in the occupied areas"), and a book published by the Axis Bulgarian military in 1941 is used as a "source" there. They have also turned the corresponding talk page into a mockery of the subject the article deals with. With their behaviour they are ruining the reliability of Misplaced Pages itself.

• Living person biographies

They insist on keeping some highly controversial Bulgarian nationalist sources in a living persons biography (Kiro Gligorov, see: external links). recently I tried to clarify that those sources originate from a Bulgarian nationalist political party VMRO-BND but i was revereted with a false explanation that "the party doesnt say that" although those links lead to the party's official site. I returned my removed edits however they can remove them again at any time for no valid reason.

• Arbitrary Deletions

Makedonsko Devoiche is just one of the many examples. Its a Macedonian song article which they have rewriten to suit their agenda claiming that the song is Bulgarian. I contested their unsourced pov statements, and in return, ForeignerFromTheEast having no valid counter-arguments decided to nominate it for deletion. However, before i showed up to contest the article and while it represented a Bulgarian POV, he didnt have a problem with its existence. Same scenarios have already happened in the past. Fortunatelly this article was not deleted due to admin intervention, however their dubious and unsourced claims are still in the article.

• Reverting valid edits

On numerous occasions they have reverted valid edits, and often their edit summaries include fake info (for example rv vandalizm when there is no actual vandalizm, probably to mislead an eventual recent changes observer). Once I was reverted for "forking" in Mala Prespa and Golo Brdo although I provided sources and explanation for the renaming (redir) of the page from Golo Bardo to Golo Brdo. Finally an administrator had to intervene and things settled down. However, yesterday they tried to sneak-in a personal blog as a "source", but was removed after i contested.

• Pseudo-admins

they systematicaly patrol Macedonian-related articles which can be noted by their contribution lists, behaving like sort of administrators. Instead of constructive additions, most of their edits consist of adding contentious and often poorly or unsourced claims to Rep. of Macedonia-related articles, be they historical, geographical, political and even trivial such as teenage pop stars biographies. They revert anything that they personaly dislike including valid edits claiming them irrelevant (for example once the Struga Poetry Evenings link was removed from Tuga za Yug, because in Foreigner's personal opinion that international festival which hosted several Nobel Prize Winners was "irrelevant".)

• double standards

I've also noted a problem in Tose Proeski and on its talk page. It seems to be the following: while english artists such as Elton John are mentioned as English rather than UK or British and while they have the flag of England in the infobox instead of the UK flag, these Bulgarian editors impose other standards for the Macedonian singers who were born/or emerged during the SR Macedonia period. They have started a tendentious campaign of adding "Yugoslavia" to almost all of the singers' articles (example: Karolina Goceva), at the same time they have ruined the look of many of the corresponding infoboxes.

In certain cases there's a mild level of personal attack or cynicism probably used to provoke an agry reaction from the opposite side and a subsequent block. And most important, in many cases whenever someone rightfully protests against their behaviour, they counter-attack with refering to certain Misplaced Pages rules accussing the person of personal attack, socking etc. I wrote a honest "face-to-face" message to ForeignerFromTheEast regarding his behaviour but there's no answer, although he was online yesterday (reverting as ussual), so I have nothing else to do except to ask the admins to take necesary actions --Dzole 08:35, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

This isn't a very good venue for this as this noticeboard moves very fast... I suggest you open a case at WP:SSP. east.718 at 16:27, 11/7/2007

There's nothing for SSP to do here, the identies of these accounts are clear. But in my opinion this whole situation is ripe for Arbcom. Too much permanent edit-warring, on all sides. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:30, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Ah, I'm not familiar with the history of this dispute. east.718 at 16:53, 11/7/2007

Looking at his contributions ForeignerFromTheEast (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), edit descriptions (ie, "why remove this?", "no need for this"), long term edit warring and talk page discussions, I'm having an increasingly harder time assuming WP:good faith from this user. SWik78 17:23, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Swik78, still better than leaving no edit summaries at all in your case. Dzole, how ironic of you to speak about sockpuppets when it is pretty clear you were behind the recent massive sockpuppetry (to name a few):

• Kebolji (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Poniranje (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Wreasuma (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Iamgoku (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Picatikoyama (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (offensive name)
• Jaditrici (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Zambez (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Szbgm (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Nekojdrugsea (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Zorla (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Onoj so tri bukvi (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Tiibam (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). ForeignerFromTheEast 18:54, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I think you should be defending your edits rather than attacking mine. Feel free to open a complaint about the things I do incorrectly but do it in a different section. SWik78 19:02, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I think you should do exactly the same. ForeignerFromTheEast 19:05, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

This is a section about User:ForeignerFromTheEast and I am lodging complaints about edits from User:ForeignerFromTheEast. What am I doing wrong? SWik78 19:07, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Are you willing to stand up to the same standards as those you measure others upon? ForeignerFromTheEast 19:09, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

In this particular section right here, titled User:ForeignerFromTheEast, the only issue that should be discussed are edits from User:ForeignerFromTheEast. Not my edits (unless they're somehow related to yours), not what I eat, not my favourite colour, not anything else other than edits by User:ForeignerFromTheEast. Take up issues about me in a section about User:SWik78. SWik78 19:14, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

This is more an issue of hypocrisy than favorite colors. ForeignerFromTheEast 19:16, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Favourite colours have absolutely nothing to do with this which was exactly my point. Thank you for confirming it. SWik78 19:18, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Sure, you're welcome. ForeignerFromTheEast 19:19, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

comment: despite all, ForeignerFromTheEast continues agenda pushing in the living person's biography: Kiro Gligorov particulary regarding the claims about Gligorov's alleged "Bulgarian ethnicity". Certain poorly scanned documents are provided in the external links section as "sources". they are hosted at the official site of the nationalist poltical party in Bulgaria VMRO-BND (its Plovdiv office). The douments: , , . From the homepage Template:Bg icon: © 2006 ВМРО-БНД - гр.Пловдив Всички права запазени. (transl. copyright VMRO-BND, city of Plovdiv, all rights reserved). Whenever i try to clarify the origin of those "sources" in the main text, Foreigner reverts me without providing any valid reason. He claims that the party itself "doesnt say such thing" about Gligorov although those documents are hosted on their server. Asked at the talk page about where such claims originate from then, if not from the party, he avoids answering and providing sources. Now he even warns me about the 3RR on my talk page --Dzole 19:30, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

User:Geoeg

• Geoeg (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I have indefinitely blocked this SPA because the disruption that they bring does now outweighs their limited contributions. They have a history of revert warring, assuming bad faith and appear incapable of working in a colaborative way. They have ignored an RFC and a RFAR and the latter makes good reading to understand the basic problems with this editor. Perusal of the history of Talk:Least-squares_spectral_analysis would also prove instructive. Last night Mikegodwin removed a bunch of stuff from this talk page at Geoeg's request (no problems with that. Geoeg then took this as carte blanch to remove the RFAR from the page (despite it being open) and several archives from the COI noticeboard. Clearly, if Mikegoodwin had intended this he would have done it himself. I'm tired of this user's disruption and its time to put an end to it. Like all of my admin actions, please feel free to disagree, overturn and comment as you wish. Spartaz 09:10, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

• Endorse block. Geoeg is a disruptive SPA who cannot work with other users. Sam Blacketer 09:27, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
• Endorse While Geoeg does have some contributions, the disruption caused by a pattern of tendencious editing seems to outweigh those contribs. (Given that Geoeg hasn't modified his behavior after any of his previous 6 blocks). --Bfigura 17:22, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

• Note that there is a malformed unblock request ob Geoeg's talk page if anyone feels like dealing with it. Spartaz 18:50, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
• endorse block. Sadly this individual is not able to "play nice". Guy (Help!) 08:06, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Save TheFingerer

I was editing under the account TheFingerer when it was brought to my attention that several of my edits were against policy. This occurred in the form of three warnings within seconds of each other at 7:42 , all for edits I had made prior to my initial warning. Upon receiving these warnings I promptly stopped editing except for a message left on the note of the editor who warned me, however was still blocked at 7:44 . I posted an unblock request asking for a second chance, however John Reaves declined my request stating I had already been given plenty of warning . I attempted to bring it to his attention that all three warnings were for edits I had made before the first warning and that I had stopped immediately upon having received these warnings, but he reverted my edit and protected my page . Given that I cannot contact the editor to ask for a review under my old account I am posting here to ask you to consider the facts I present:

• I received three warnings in under a minute all for edits I had made before the first warning.
• I did not make any edits after receiving the first warning bar asking a question on the page of the warner
• I was blocked having made no inappropriate edits after I received my first warning
• An unblock was declined because I had apparently received enough warning

All I am asking for is a second chance. SaveTheFingerer 09:17, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Please follow the instructions on your talk page, if you're interested in a second chance. Note: I have blocked SaveTheFingerer indefinitely as a sock and bad faith user. You clearly knew what you were doing and are no longer welcome to edit here until you've proven your good faith. henrik•talk 09:38, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I am a bit concerned about the time line of this. First warning through third warning was at 7:42. Block was at 7:44, no "fingering" went on after the 7:42 warnings. While I suspect I am assuming too much good faith and this truly is a vandalism only account, the fact that his page has been protected and email blocked (which he hasn't abused as far as I know) disturbs me. His accounting is correct. Usually when a vandalism only account gets caught, they go away, change accounts, and don't try to put up a fight. This is a bit different. I am commenting purely on the timeline and the general way this was handled. spryde | talk 12:02, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I think that henrik gave a clear explanation and i am still concerned about the username. Nothing changed so far. It still refers to which he used to harass many users. We don't want anyone to 'finger' any user. -- FayssalF - 12:10, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Oh I am not denying what he originally did was wrong. I am just concerned about the timeline. If I am crazy, tell me I am crazy and I will go back to editing my Lumber Tycoon/Politician/Heckuvaguy article :) spryde | talk 12:13, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

:) Well, the proper procedure is to contact the blocking admin Icairns (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) and discuss that w/ them. I've just commented on the fact that the blocked user is still obsessed w/ 'fingers'. -- FayssalF - 12:38, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

(un-dent) Read the contribs: the first sixteen edits were to give "the finger" to other editors. It is a disruption-only account opened by an experienced user who is now trying to game the rules to get an unblock. The unblock reason was "I was not given warning, I was unaware that my actions constituted vandalism, can I have a second change (sic)" which is not compatible with their earlier statement that "Giving the finger promotes WikiHate". Perhaps a checkuser might be in order? The behaviour of this account is unlikely to be an isolated incident. Sheffield Steel_stalk 14:07, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually, new accounts knowing exactly what is WikiHate, how to make a template, adding pictures to it, coming here to complain, etc... are w/o any doubts sock puppets. This is clearly a sock puppet of someone who got some problems w/ the editors he 'fingered' them. There's really nothing to do here and believe CU would be just a waste of time. -- FayssalF - 14:26, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

This is pure, thoroughbred bullshit, you knew exactly what you were doing, as long as I am editing wikipedia, you will never change any page. You are a pathetic wated excuse for a human. This is Zanusi 14:47, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Please remember to be civil. Corvus cornix 17:21, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Indef blocked by Neil. shoy ( _words) 03:06, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

'Wated'? HalfShadow 03:12, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Using user pages to call out other users

A while ago, I started a thread here with the same title (see the archive here) regarding User:GHcool using his user page as a WP:SOAPBOX and to call out other users, quoting them out of context and without a chance for rebuttal, effectively making them look anti-Semitic or just plain stupid.

Despite User:GHcool constantly changing the heading to make the incident seem more innocuous (see here, here, here and here), several administrators called on User:GHcool to remove the offending parts of his user page, which resulted in User:GHcool making a single edit, leaving the rest of the page as it was.

The page has since been extended by a few quotes (here, here and here).

Can any administrator have a word with User:GHcool and make sure he revises his user page?

Cheers and thanks, pedro gonnet - talk - 07.11.2007 09:30

I've taken the liberty to change the title of this debate because I feel that it misrepresents the issue and begs the question. Furthermore, since I am unaware of any guidelines against changing the heading of a section in a non-talk page, I trust that nobody will criticize this action.

Its a shame that Pedro Gonnet feels the need to harass me like this. I could understand if he were one of the users I criticize on my page, but he isn't. Most of Pedro Gonnet's edits are perfectly acceptable to me. We have disagreed on talk pages in the past, but in general, I find that Pedro Gonnet is not a problem editor or a liar. I try to limit my criticisms to statements that are demonstrably false. I do not assume bad faith, nor do personally attack users. I feel that this does not solve any problems and would probably create more problems. I prefer instead to criticizing users' fallacious statements, since, in my opinion, the responsiblity of Misplaced Pages editors is to correct falsehoods, demanding proof, and noting a biased point of view. This is the third time somebody has tried to stop me from using my user page to explain my views and I expect and hope that it will be the third time the charges will be exonerated. Thank you. --GHcool 19:31, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

• "Furthermore, since I am unaware of any guidelines against changing the heading of a section in a non-talk page, I trust that nobody will criticize this action." That is somewhat disingenuous, since I explicitly pointed you to the relevant guidelines on your talk page. Let me quote the relevant part for you:

The italics are in the original.

Cheers, pedro gonnet - talk - 08.11.2007 08:57

A number of the new quotes mentioned above do, indeed, misrepresent the users by being taken out of context. I suggest you remove them from your userpage, or the end result is going to be the entire page being deleted. ELIMINATORJR 19:47, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Eliminatorjr, you'll find that I'm a pretty reasonable person. Perhaps if you gave me feedback on the specific instance when you feel I misrepresented someone, I could review it and see if I could correct it. I think that course of action would be more productive and more cooperative than idle threats. --GHcool 22:20, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I'll reply on your talk page, this probably isn't the place. ELIMINATORJR 22:23, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Great! I recommend that anybody else who wants to discuss this matter talk directly to me on my user page like Eliminatorjr has done. There's no need to take time away from the busy administrators on this issue. --GHcool 23:18, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Incident -Talk The Holocaust

User-Mona23653 deleted a post that I had made on Ukrainian Colloboration in WW2, this post included a link to another Misplaced Pages article. I have restored my original post. User Mona23653 should not be allowed to censor the talk page.--Woogie10w 11:17, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Just leave them a message, there isn't really anything that requires administrator intervention. east.718 at 16:29, 11/7/2007

This is the text of my message to User Mona23653--- " Don't delete my postings, I am one person you can't bully. I mean it, stop deleting what I post!! " User Mona23653, I noticed has been accused of hostile postings in the past. I don't appreciate my posts being censored, especially when they direct readers to another Misplaced Pages article.--Woogie10w 18:01, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

To ice the cake Mona23653 makes statements regarding the Holocaust in the Ukraine that are not backed up with sources. Mona23653 attacks my source because he is a Russian.--Woogie10w 18:05, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Undeletion of User talk

Any objections to the restoration of User talk:Eyrian? Mercury 12:39, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Obviously don't undelete the last revision. I don't think it really matters much, so why bother doing it? GRBerry 14:42, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

This request is probably linked to This thread. -- lucasbfr 15:22, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

The editor having returned, an in light of the above thread and RFAR, I have undeleted the talk. The right to vanish in this case would only apply to those departing with no intention to return. If I have made an error, any admin acting in good faith may undo this action with my endorsement of reversal. Best, Mercury 18:04, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Where did he return? I don't see anything in his contribs or logs since Oct 28th. User:Veesicle 23:52, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

He "left" in august. His most recent was a few days ago on the 28th. Given Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration#Eyrian I believe the restoration was ok for the circumstance. Best, Mercury 00:03, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

User:Abhih

I don't know where else to put this, but can someone help this guy out? I'm trying to give him some advice on his talk page about appropriate and inappropriate uses of CSD templates, but instead...he reported me to WP:AIV for removing CSD templates whose claim was essentially that the article was not encyclopedic (which is not a valid CSD reason)...can an admin please explain to him why excessive use of inappropriate CSD templates is disruptive? The guy obviously wants to help Misplaced Pages, but I think he's having trouble understanding that there are already policies and consensuses in place...and you can't just speedy an article because you don't like it (note that some of the speedies have been perfectly legit)...he seems to have fairly good intentions and could probably be a good SPAM warrior...just a wee misguided. - Smashville 14:08, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Agreed - he's very enthusiastic about his hunting down of potential COI and advertising, but he obviously doesn't quite grasp the concept of an article expressing notability. Judging from the way he shrugged off Smashville's comments, pointing out that he's not an admin, someone with the bit would probably do well to give him a careful explanation of the speedy deletion rules and some of the other options... Tony Fox (arf!) 17:22, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Alert to any admin familiar with User:SEGA and his ongoing activity despite a community ban

To any admin familiar with the "SEGA saga". SEGA has been permanently banned (See Misplaced Pages:Community_sanction_noticeboard/Archive6#Community_ban_on_User:SEGA ). However, this user is still active under a number of IPs. 67.33.61.18 (talk · contribs) was originally blocked for 6 months prior to SEGA's community ban being put into effect. The 6 months has ended and that IP is now active again. Recent edits by 68.112.18.13 (talk · contribs) are also SEGA stepping around his permanent block. 68.112.18.X is another IP range identified in SEGA's very lengthy Sockpuppet case and this IP has been mirroring the edits of 67.33.61.18. Also note: after being tagged as a SEGA IP sock, 68.112.18.13 blanked their sock template with this edit. Admin Wiki alf replaced the tag here. And again the IP blanked their talk page here. Since SEGA is under a permanent community ban, shouldn't all his usual IP haunts be blocked... or re-blocked as well? 156.34.142.110 15:20, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

BetacommandBot running riot

Hello I would like to alert the wikipedia community that BetacommandBot (talk · contribs) appears to have gone on a mess campaign to get every image licensed under the template {{logo}} deleted reguardless if they have a proper rationale or not. All the images are being tagged for deletion and when this happens the bot posts on the talkpages of articles in an intimidating matter saying in other words "The image will be deleted" basically, claiming that all Rationale's I think we can improve this bot because it just seems to be a nuisance. The sunder king 15:37, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Can you give some examples of edits you think it's making incorrectly? --bainer (talk) 15:40, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Tagging images which have fair rationales as having no or incorrect rationales. The sunder king 15:44, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I think what we are looking for is a specific example or two. JodyB _{Roll, Tide, Roll} 15:47, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

This edit concerns me. The image is the standard resolution with a rationale and proper license, and the bot has threatened deletion on it. The sunder king 15:48, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Please read the template, they fail WP:NFCC#10c β 15:51, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Looks like it's tagging images correctly to me. Image:Borough of Sunderland COA.png, Image:Gatesheadcrest.jpg, and Image:Nwlogo.gif...which you've recently removed the tag from...all have information lacking from their rationales. You've failed to include a link to the article it's being used in. --Onorem♠Dil 15:49, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

They are being used in articles, but please read Image:Gatesheadcrest.jpg, it has a strong rationale. The sunder king 15:51, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

From the tag, "Note that, per WP:NFCC#10c, each fair-use rationale must include a link to the specific article in which fair use of the image is claimed."

I didn't say that they aren't being used in articles. A link to the article the image is being used in must be included in the fair use rationale. --Onorem♠Dil 15:55, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I've read and done that on the description pages. The sunder king 15:56, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

If Betacommand would be more communicative (your reverts could have had something in the summary) this could have been resolved much sooner. —Random832 16:02, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Well to be honest when you see the amount of complaints/requests on his talk page from people who haven't read the linked pages, you understand why he is now less communicative than before. We all have only 24 hours in our days. -- lucasbfr 16:41, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Couldn't agree more Random. Orderinchaos 21:18, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, this is a simple matter of placing the article the picture is used in in the Fair Use rationale. If you do this, it should be okay. JuJube 16:14, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Maybe I'm crazy, but couldn't BCBot be modified to insert the proper 10c article link rather than tag them for deletion on a technicality? Powers 17:14, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

that is not something a bot can do, how is it supposed to know where the current rationale is for? not all rationales are the same. β 17:16, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

In most cases, such logos are used on a single page. Powers 17:17, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I have seen images uploaded for page A and a rationale was written for page A, Image was placed on page B and later removed from page A. does that mean rationale A is valid for page B? (no) it requires human judgment. β 17:23, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I would object to a bot inserting fair use rationales, that should never be done automatically, or what's the point in having a fair use rationale, anyway? How is the bot supposed to know if the article that the image is in, is actually being used under proper fair use considerations? Corvus cornix 17:28, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Quite. Spartaz 18:25, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

In most cases I would agree, but in the case of logos it seems vanishingly unlikely. The vast, vast, vast majority of cases are blindingly obvious. Powers 22:06, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

The problem here...

...Was not the bot, nor the user who undid the bot. The problem was two sterile reverts: and which restored the bot rationale warning tag without explaining why the tag had been placed.

All editors and administrators bear a responsibility for discussing issues which may come up. We accept bot actions within accepted ranges of activity as exceptions to that - the bot tagging here is appropriate. However, Betacommand manually reinserted the bot tag twice without so much as an edit summary or talk page comment to explain why the rationale that was there was not compliant with rationale requirements in the fair use policy.

I have warned Betacommand for sterile edit warring and failing to take reasonable efforts to inform and discuss and clarify policy when it was challenged. The bot was right; the tag was right; the rationale was deficient. Explaining why it was deficient was B's responsibility under the circumstances, however, and he didn't do that. Georgewilliamherbert 20:57, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm supposed to be on wikibreak and I'm getting emails and messages at my talk page from newbies concerned their images are being deleted (I'm sure I'm not alone amongst admins in getting these sorts of contacts) - they simply don't understand what they need to do to make them comply, and there is a general perception out there that the rules and goalposts keep moving, so if they fix it now, they'll have to fix it again in a few weeks or months. This is the main problem I have with this - for the sake of arbitrary correctness we are driving good contributors off the project out of sheer frustration. In cases where it simply points to a redirect or disambiguation instead of the final destination, the bot should fix it itself instead of mindlessly nominating for deletion. Orderinchaos 21:14, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

That last biut seems kind of obvious to me... Viridae 21:21, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Me too. It is understandable that a bot makes bot-like edits, but it is also reasonable to expect the operator of the bot to provide civil and helpful responses to good-faith queries. --John 22:12, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

The bot follows redirects, as for DAB pages those are not valid. As for reverting, if a user actually read the notice, and the link that is provided they would know what the issue is. Instead the choose to undo or revert without fixing the issue that has been brought up. I just revert back. User who come to my talk page I try and help. β 23:16, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Two wrongs don't make a right. In particular, when applying arcane and often confusing policy to users who have little understanding of it, administrators and senior editors have a responsibility to proactively communicate in more detail to get the right message out. We cannot force the editor to listen and understand, but failing to make the effort to explain it to them adequately is assuming bad faith and unacceptable behavior on Misplaced Pages. They should not have to come to your talk page to get an adequate explanation. If you revert, you owe them at least an edit summary that explains. You haven't been doing even that. Please take the time to help people. Assume good faith and explain it to them at least once, preferably at least twice if they don't get it the first time. WP:AGF and WP:BITE require that we treat them with respect and good faith efforts to communicate. The sterile reverts are as far away from that policy and underlying intended policy as you can get... Georgewilliamherbert 00:53, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

User:209.94.170.126

209.94.170.126 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) Vandalism only from this IP. 2 blocks in the past, 2 warnings about vandalism today as of this entry. I think it's time for an extended block. SWik78 17:05, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

IP has been blocked for 72 hours. Please make future reports like this to Misplaced Pages:Administrator intervention against vandalism. Thanks! GlassCobra 18:05, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

User:Ryoung122 disrupting XfD discussions

Ryoung122 (talk · contribs) (aka Robert Young (longevity claims researcher)) is repeatedly disrupting XfD discussions relating to articles and categories in which he has a conflict of interest, despite the guidace at WP:COI to "if you have a conflict of interest avoid, or exercise great caution when: 2.Participating in deletion discussions about articles related to your organization or its competitors", which presumably also applies to autobiographical articles.

A previous example can be found at Misplaced Pages:Articles for_deletion/Robert Young (gerontologist) (edit | ] | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), but the most recent problems are with Misplaced Pages:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_November_1#Category:Supercentenarian_trackers and with Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Robert Young (longevity claims researcher) (edit | ] | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

At the current AfD, Young has:

1. made one edit full of personal attacks, with lots of badly-formatted and barely-relevant links (it appears to be another block-copy-and-paste of a screen of google results)
2. Accused me as nominator of having a COI becaise I nominated a related category
3. chopped up and disrupted the nomination, leaving it unclear who wrote what
4. abusively accuses another editor of "conflict-of-interest and vote-stacking" merely because they frequently comment on my talk page, calling this "a 'pissing contest'"

Young also appears to contributing under an IP adress: .

It can often be useful to have the subject of an article comment at AfD, but this disruption is too much. I have restored my nomination, but please could someone try to apply some brakes here before this AfD becomes as much of a mess as the other XfDs where Young's COI has led him to post screenfuls of irrelevancies? Thanks --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:22, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

PS I have tried discussing these problems with Young, both on his talk page and mine (see A, B B), including trying to discourage him from noting his canvassing, both in wikipedia and through his mailing list. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) —Preceding comment was added at 17:29, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Comment: the above user has conducted an unmitigated campaign that borders on abusive of the power and authority bestowed to a Misplaced Pages administrator. Questionable activities include:

A. Deleting relevant arguments

WP:AN on CfD disruption See Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#User:Ryoung122_disrupting_XfD_discussions.

Please note also that I have restored my nomination at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Robert Young (longevity claims researcher) to its state before you edited it. Please do read WP:TPG. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:24, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

B. Using negative terms

C. Avoiding attempts at negotiation

D. Engaging in retributive AFD nominations

A check of the records will find that this originally started with AFD when the above user decided to delete pertinent material. I am a reasonable person but when someone begins making false accusations and then deleting the reponse, that has gone way, way too far.Ryoung122 21:08, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Seriously, do read wikipedia's Talk Page guidelines. BrownHairedGirl reverted your edit because the additions of your arguments made the AfD nomination unreadable. Interspersing your own comments between someone else's is bad enough in general Talk page usage (it's a lot like repeatedly interrupting someone while they're trying to speak) but to do so on an AfD nomination is worse. Sheffield Steel_stalk 22:31, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Ryoung, can you please provide diffs (Help: Diff) to substantiate your claims? Natalie 22:40, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

And we have now had a further series of edits from Ryoung122 chopping up the nomination for a second time, and in this edit breaking indentation and introducing many paragraphs of material irrelevant to the AfD.

Two editors have taken some steps to tidy things a bit, but the discussion is still a huge big mess, and on past form will get worse if Young contributes again. :( --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:45, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Sigh. I had a previous encounter with Ryoung122. I won't deny that he is knowledgable in his field, but the fact he acts as if his expertise excuses all incivil behavior on his part makes him a difficult case. He has been blocked once, & I wouldn't be surprised if he is blocked again, for a longer period. -- llywrch 23:12, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Disruptive edits, removal of sourced material, POV-pushing, personal attack

EliasAlucard (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
EliasAlucard has removed sourced material from Neo-Nazism and National Socialist Front, in an effort to push an uncited point of view. I have made comprimises and searched out several references to back up the facts in those articles, but EliasAlucard continues to revert my constructive and referenced edits. He has also made at least one unwarranted personal attack against me in an edit note in the neo-Nazism article, and has used caps in edit notes (aka yelling). He was also recently edit warring to change the capitalization in the titles of Anti-fascism and Anti-communism; without justification, against standard capitalization guidelines, and against the consensus on Misplaced Pages for articles about isms (although he seems to have backed down from that).Spylab 17:54, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

First of all, Spylab here is misrepresenting me. His sources don't claim that National Socialist Front has as its ideology, "Neo-Nazism". They call it a Neo-Nazi organisation/group, which is what it is, but they do not label its ideology as "Neo-Nazi". Second of all, Neo-Nazism, is not a unique ideology in itself, it's a political movement seeking to revive an ideology, namely, Nazism. This is even confirmed by User:Spylab's sources. About his sources, I didn't remove them, I bundled them together into one cohesive source. And as for his personal attack claim, I remarked: it seems you have a reading disorder or something; all of your sources confirm that "Neo-Nazism" is a political movement trying to revive Nazism; and Nazism is an ideology. Why? because his sources, don't say once that Neo-Nazism is a unique ideology that differs from the original Nazism, they all say it's a political movement. This is hardly POV-pushing. I have been accused of vandalism by this user, and that can certainly lead to a block on his part for accusing me of vandalism over a content-dispute. What's more, is that he has been reverted by me and another user over his failure to understand that Neo-Nazi groups do not have an ideology called "Neo-Nazism", and he should be blocked for at least 24 hours for violating WP:3RR. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 19:17 07 Nov, 2007 (UTC)

It should also be noted that User:Slarre reverted Spylab's edit by pointing out that his sources don't support his preferred version. It seems to me, Spylab lacks a lot of knowledge on Nazism and he misinterprets his own sources. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 19:32 07 Nov, 2007 (UTC)

• My footnotes, do in fact, back up my edits. That is why I chose those references. That can be confirmed by clicking on those references and using control-F (or find) to find the appropriate text.Spylab 22:02, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

The following references call neo-Nazism an ideology, not just a movement:

• "Neo-Nazism is the name for a modern offshoot of Nazism. It is a radically right-wing ideology..."
• "Neo-Nazism: An ideology which draws upon the legacy of the Nazi Third Reich..."
• "Where parents and teachers have fallen short of educating German children about the horrors of their past, as well as the dangers that come with allowing neo-Nazism to continue, the promoters of neo-Nazi ideology and organizations have been able to make inroads."
• "...the ideology of neo-Nazism is secondary to the cult of the music itself." I removed one reference that did not call neo-Nazism an ideology, but those four references clearly refer to neo-Nazism as an ideology.Spylab 22:43, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
  • This is not the place to discuss this. This is a content dispute, not about vandalism or anything else. You should stop pasting your refs here and let us discuss it where it belongs. For the record, your refs are all wrong and not academic. — EliasAlucard (talk · contribs) 00:12 08 Nov, 2007 (UTC)
    • I tend to agree with the above. WP:ANI is not the place for content disputes; try dispute resolution. --Haemo 03:37, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

This is not a simple content dispute at all, especially since part of the problem is incivility in edit notes and talk pages (not just the single personal attack you linked to), and the unwillingness to comprimise. As for the content dispute itself, I have provided several references, and you have dismissed them all out of hand, and haven't provided any references proving that neo-Nazism is not an ideology. We are just supposed to take your uncited personal opinion as fact. Here is a list of 15 more references. That makes a total of 19 references explicitly describing neo-Nazism as an ideology vs zero references attempting to disprove that fact.Spylab 03:45, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

User:Here to troll

Here to troll (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I came across this user while on the Yellow Pages article. Only one edit, but the content of that edit along with the username suggests no interest in constructive contributions. Arakunem 17:57, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

User blocked indefinitely. Please report future violations like this to WP:UAA. Thanks! GlassCobra 18:00, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Wow, pretty much everyone beat me on this one; I got beat on the block, edit-conflicted here... man, just when I thought I was on the ball, too. Bah! EVula // talk // ☯ // 18:02, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Problematic user P.F.O.S.B.

P.F.O.S.B. (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) This editor may need to be blocked soon for editing which perhaps falls short of being obvious vandalism. They have made a number of edits, clearly NPOV violations, to controversial articles (e.g. Abortion, Lethal Injection) with plainly misleading edit summaries. The editor has also edit-warred on Prison Break and so far has removed one warning from their Talk page without comment (not a crime in itself, I know, but it doesn't help assess the user).

This begs the question of how many "good" edits a user needs to make, to be able to avoid being blocked as a disruption-only account. In their defense, I'm sure P.F.O.S.B. will point to the many speedy-deletion tags that make up the rest of their contribs. However, tagging Base load fallacy as an attack article may not be all that constructive... Sheffield Steel_stalk

I've been thinking about this too. The user has made about 80 valid speedy deletion taggings, which is an excellent contribution from a new user joining new page patrol. But, we can't make it seem like one can "buy" POV edits and tendentious practices with a certain amount of near-automatic new page tagging. Leebo /C 19:51, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Block review

I've just blocked IvoShandor (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) for 24 hours for gross incivility. Edits such as this and this are completely unacceptable here and he's been here long enough to understand that point. He's excerising his right to vanish, but he shouldn't do this in a disruptive way. Could someone do review for me? Ryan Postlethwaite 18:44, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Seems like a good block and it's sad that it was needed. As IvoShandor was a valued, long-time contributer... I think he should be unblocked if he indicates he's calmed down and will stop with the attacks. --W.marsh 18:54, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Of course W.marsh, that's my plan, I'll make that clear on his talk page. He's a good user, but we should assume that he is really wanting to vanish, and if that's the case, then we don't want him taking other users with him because of his attacks. Ryan Postlethwaite 18:56, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I concur with W.marsh that it was a good block. I might have warned the user first to give them a chance to back down. I believe there is a school of thought among some admins that "civility blocks never work"; I do not however recall what, if any, alternatives are offered by them to deal with this kind of serial incivility. --John 18:58, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

He's a very prolific contributor at Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Illinois and Misplaced Pages:WikiProject National Register of Historic Places, and I really don't want to see him vanish. That said, he seems to have had a rather mercurial personality lately. He's been getting frustrated rather easily at certain incidents, like with Mattisse (talk · contribs) at WP:DYK and with TonyTheTiger (talk · contribs) in several different situations. I'm not sure why he's been frustrated at working in a collaborative environment lately, except for the possibility that he's been butting heads with a few strong-willed people. I don't have any opposition to the block, but it's regrettable that it's come down to this. I wish he'd find a way to deal with these frustrations and not get upset so easily. --Elkman 20:00, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Yea, he snapped at me yesterday. Of course, my response wasn't particularly nice, but what he said today was unacceptable. SashaCall 20:19, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

And he hasn't learned his lesson SashaCall 20:38, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Rants & attacks by User:Thomasinventions

Resolved – User blocked with polite but firm message, feel free to unblock if he calms down and shows signs of becoming rational. Guy (Help!) 20:25, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm receiving lengthy rants and attacks by Thomasinventions (talk · contribs), which could probably benefit from an outsider's intervention. User added this piece of original research to Ebay, which I reverted. Presumably the same user, under various related IP addresses, previously added the same info (diff, diff, diff, diff), which me and other editors had previously reverted. Thanks. --ZimZalaBim 19:22, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

User:Trainunion

I am not sure this counts as vandalism, but new user account Trainunion (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) revered 6 prods without explaination. When asked why the answer was .--Gavin Collins 19:58, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Warned by another user, I reverted the violation of WP:NPA he left on your talk page. Cheers, Qst 20:21, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

User is now blocked, and is now asking for unblock, which is likely to fail. I don't think we need to worry about him anymore. --EoL talk 20:54, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks to User:East718, User:Nancy, User:Qst and yourself for acting to timely and effective manner. --Gavin Collins 20:58, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Hold on... wait... the user continues to make personal attacks, however, they claim to have good intentions (saying the articles are notable). Should we do a good-faith unblock? --EoL talk 21:03, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Technically, he is entitled to remove the prod templates as he did give a reason: they are "plenty notable". However, his respose to my questions as to why they are notable was responded to by . I think he had a chance to respond in good faith already. --Gavin Collins 21:19, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

(ec) The Prod's that he reverted are all related, so they were not random troublemaking. Additionally, the prod template does say that anyone can remove it if they "object to (the article's) deletion for any reason". An explanation is requested, but the language suggests that one is not required. While I do not condone the user's over-reaction and associated incivility, I don't think he was out of line in removing the Prods. If someone objects to the prod, they may remove it. If someone objects to the removal, the next step is to list at AfD, which was not done here... Arakunem 21:21, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't aware of this thread, and had already dropped the block down to a day. I'm willing to unblock him if he ceases edit warring and personal attacks. Thoughts? east.718 at 21:43, 11/7/2007

Once the prod tags have been removed, my understanding is that they cannot be restored, unless there is an exception? Could you confirm if this edit is in order . I presume the next step is to go to AfD. --Gavin Collins 23:08, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

The only exception I'm aware of is if the tag was removed in error (which is certainly not the case here). The next step is to go to AfD, if you wish to pursue the deletion of the article. Other options, like discussion or walking away, are, of course, always open. -Chunky Rice 23:12, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I can think of another exception why a prod template would be restored: reverting vandalism, which was what the user Nancy did. But you ignored her reasoning. Why was this?--Gavin Collins 00:05, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I've not ingored anybody's reasoning, so I'm not sure what you're getting at. If you'll take a look at the relevant policy (WP:PROD), you'll see that a PROD tag should not be restored, even in the event that it appears to have been removed in bad faith. I don't think that you understand that the PROD system is set up to faciliate uncontested deletions. Once it is contested (even by an SPA), PROD no longer applies. -Chunky Rice 00:13, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

WP:PROD says that the prod template should not be removed if the edit is not obviously vandalism. Nancy believed in good faith it was obvious vandalism; but you assumed she restored the template by mistake. Is that correct? --Gavin Collins 00:26, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Obvious vandalism in removing a PROD tag has to be a little more than removing it and stating the article is notable in the edit summary. So, yes, I believe she was mistaken if that's what she thought. An anon could remove a PROD tag without any edit summary, and that should not be restored. Unless it's a part of blanking vandalism or it's being replaced with racial slurs or something like that, PROD tags should not be restored once removed. -Chunky Rice 00:30, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Speedy Delete of a redirect appears to be invalid, please help

I just found this on my User Talk:

Hello, this is a message from an automated bot. A tag has been placed on Girls Just Wanna Have Fun (disambiguation), by another Misplaced Pages user, requesting that it be speedily deleted from Misplaced Pages. The tag claims that it should be speedily deleted because Girls Just Wanna Have Fun (disambiguation) is a redirect to a non-existent page (CSD R1).

To contest the tagging and request that administrators wait before possibly deleting Girls Just Wanna Have Fun (disambiguation), please affix the template {{hangon}} to the page, and put a note on its talk page. If the article has already been deleted, see the advice and instructions at WP:WMD. Feel free to contact the bot operator if you have any questions about this or any problems with this bot, bearing in mind that this bot is only informing you of the nomination for speedy deletion; it does not perform any nominations or deletions itself. CSDWarnBot 08:36, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I have a couple of misgivings/problems with this:

1.) I have no idea how one can place a "hangon" tag onto a page that does not appear to allow one access to it long enough to hit "edit this page". Is there a trick to this I don't know about, by any chance?

2.) The actual complaint is that it redirects to a "non-existent page". This is a truly bizarre claim, because it actually redirects to the main disambig page, Girls Just Want to Have Fun (disambiguation)... which, you know... exists. As opposed to being "non-existent", which requires, well, not existing. The pages were created the same time as each other - months and months ago - so I don't know how this got to be a reason given for a "Speedy Delete" nom.

Additionally, having looked at the Criteria for Speedy Deletion in regards to redirects, I do not feel this necessarily warrants it anyway (meaning I would LOVE to use the hangon tag... if I could even manage to figure out how to in this case), as not only does the redirect go to a page that does in fact exist, but it happens to be a VERY common misspelling of the title of the original song, after which several other things are named (sometimes using the "Wanna" spelling to boot), and I thought that it would be simpler and perfectly logical to just include both variations of the title on one disambig page, under the circumstances.

At any rate, it's an odd situation... advice please? Runa27 20:34, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't think there's actually anything to do now. On October 16, it looks like there was some page moving, and the page got tagged for speedy deletion, but this was eventually changed back to the original redirect. You're looking at a message that was only valid for a short time about 3 weeks ago. Regarding your 1st point about applying a hangon to the redirect, when you are redirected, you will see a link to the redirect at the top of the page. That's where you'd go to see the actual redirect. Leebo /C 20:41, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

• Yes, there is a way to edit a redirect — after you are redirected to the target page, you'll notice a little note underneath the title that says "Redirected from X", where X is a link to the redirect. Click that link and you'll get to the redirect page without it redirecting you to its target, like this.
• The speedy deletion tag (and subsequent warning to your talk page) came about due to some move mistakes; it was added when the redirect in question looked like this, which was to a page that didn't exist. The redirect was fixed to the proper place and the speedy deletion tag was removed.

Hope this helps. —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 20:43, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

3rr unblock request / block

Can anybody have a quick look at the unblock request at User talk:Theisles and review also if I 216.143.251.162 (talk · contribs) should be blcoked as well. I warned the both but Theisles went ahead with another revert...--Tikiwont 20:46, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Unblock has been declined by JodyB and block will expire soon while 216.143.251.162 has brought the issue to the article's talk page. --Tikiwont 21:27, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

User:69.226.46.17

• 69.231.5.43 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 69.226.46.17 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Mastermesh (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Apparently it all started with the popular culture section of the Plymouth Valiant when I added a trivia tag then purged that section, that user got angry and vandalised one of the page I created as seen here as well as writing in to another user with a false statement that I removed it because it had nothing to do with foreign shit boxes, this is without checking my user contribution history

He then under the username Mastermeth (see contribution history), decided to vandalise numerous of my articles, which he ended up getting banned. Following the ban, he than came to my talk page and made another personal attack, accusing me discrediting Detroit and then removed that. I only got to know about it when I received a new message notification. I believe that these listed above are the same users as he has written the same topic about Michigan. Willirennen 23:19, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

• Am I missing something here? I don't see anything since two days ago. Guy (Help!) 23:34, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Looking at Willirennen contribs, it looks like he logged in today and saw the new message banner. spryde | talk 23:44, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Looking at this contribution history, I suspect that that user may be a sock puppet of this user —Preceding unsigned comment added by Willirennen (talk • contribs) 00:26, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Talk page moves by User: TheNightmareMan

First off, I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this or not, so please forgive me if this is the wrong place.

User: TheNightmareMan Special:Contributions/TheNightmareMan has moved a bunch of Talk pages, including today's FA Borat, in an attempt to archive them. I'm not fully proficient with Misplaced Pages yet, so I don't want to attempt to undo this. Can someone please take a look at it? The pages affected are: Talk:Borat: Cultural Learnings of America for Make Benefit Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan‎, Talk:Beijing opera‎ and Talk:Phishing. Thanks! Ank329 22:52, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

It's OK, people do that when a talk page gets too long. Cheers,JetLover (Report a mistake) 23:29, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, he almost did it right. There are no links to the archives on the talk pages for Borat :-D. Never done this before but wish me luck! spryde | talk 00:00, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Putting comments here after having also reported at Misplaced Pages:Administrator_intervention_against_vandalism. This user went through an inappropriately "archived" multiple article talk pages by using redirects to move the pages, which has broken the talk page history and left the original talk pages completely blank (he also removed project templates, etc). This also removed current conversations and left several editors baffled. It can be undone by moving the content back to the main talk page, but admin action is needed to fix the histories. Collectonian 00:39, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I left the user a note on how to archive. As these page moves were from several hours ago and they have been fixed, I don't see the point of a block. -- Flyguy649 00:47, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually only one has been fixed. The Beijing opera and Phising still need fixing :) Collectonian 01:04, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your help. like Collectonian said, the Beijing opera and Phising Talk pages still need fixing. Thanks Ank329 01:44, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

 Done. I believe I fixed them. -- Flyguy649 05:30, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

User:63.3.10.130

User:63.3.10.130 attempted to reset my password today, probably in response for me nominating one of his articles for deletion. Is there a protocol for handling situations like these? Caknuck 01:48, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

• Now that I look at this more closely, I'm pretty sure we have a sock of User:Cowboycaleb1 here. Look at the date the account was created, the contribution histories & the spelling of "referance" in the edit summaries. Second opinion anyone? Caknuck 01:52, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
  • As some small advice, delete the e-mail/ignore/don't do anything with it. Maxim 02:18, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
    • That's what I figured. Thanks, Caknuck 02:19, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Repeated re-creation of deleted article Russel Timoshenko

The article Russel Timoshenko was deleted on 26 July after an AfD debate. The editor User:Fodient has since re-created the article on numerous occasions: twice at Russel Timoshenko, at Russel timoshenko, at Russell Timoshenko and as a redirect at Russell timoshenko. The editor's persistent re-creation of a deleted article is bordering on vandalism. Thanks, WWGB 02:32, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Salted the earth. east.718 at 02:44, 11/8/2007

We been asked at the Belarusian Wikiproject to recreated the article; we rejected it. We also had nothing to do with it's recreation at all. User:Zscout370 04:41, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Please be alert

Everyone's favorite foul-mouthed, likely-Canadian-expatriate vandal is back. This is following a four+ month absence, so watchlisting the articles on the linked page, or at least some of them, would be greatly appreciated. Natalie 04:07, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

• Add 58.8.21.24 (talk · contribs) to that list. I had a lovely little exchange with this dapper young gentleman. JuJube 04:18, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
  • And 58.8.28.232 (talk · contribs). JuJube 08:05, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

User:Venusboat

Hello, I'd like to voice concerns about this user. He has been removing a smile on Jimbo Wales's talk page saying it is "unencyclopedic." Cheers,JetLover (Report a mistake) 05:09, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Ok, the guy is now calling Angel David (whom posted the message) a "derranged stalker." I'm starting to think this guy is somewhat of a troll. Cheers,JetLover (Report a mistake) 05:14, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

OK, he's a troll for sure. Cheers,JetLover (Report a mistake) 05:16, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Requesting block on IP 165.21.83.230

I've noticed this IP address has made many spam edits. I just reverted http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Odex&action=history Please investigate. Talkpage: http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:165.21.83.230

Jc4k 05:34, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

SPAM?

Is this really okay? See these contributions Special:Contributions/Zhanliusc. - Rjd0060 06:24, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

It's been done before by other similar projects. Precedent from those experiences seem to say that it is permissible as long as the survey is legitimate, among other "requirements." —Kurykh 06:44, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

OKAY. I have no idea, just wanted to point it out since he says he is going to add it to 200 admin's talk pages. - Rjd0060 06:45, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I just spent 20 minutes trying to find it in the archives: link. —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 06:46, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I remember receiving an email about something similar a while back, about some interview or survey... wait let me dig it up... "Request for opinions about our Showcasing events on the impact of Misplaced Pages" was the subject. The email goes on to discuss celebrations of "Jimmy Wales' work" in setting up the project, before suggesting some ways to celebrate, like distribution of "Misplaced Pages-related postcards" (my favourite :P), mascots and some wiki-related documentary... hmmm... ~ Sebi 07:40, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Sadly (?) I am not one of the 200 randomly chosen admins. This looks like a legitimate academic survey, although leaving a note at 200 talk pages seems... spammish. That said, unless people have strenuous objections, I suggest leaving this up to the recipients. -- Flyguy649 07:46, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Kwsn (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Kwsn (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) overturned a block of User:Perspicacite by TimVickers (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA). User:Kwsn did this without discussion or notice. He's had the mop for 9 days according to his user page. What's the procedure on something like this? Is there a mentor prgram for inexperienced admins? --DHeyward 06:49, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

The procedure, to me, would be going to Kwsn and talking to him about it, because sometimes people do slip up. However, about a minute before you posted this, he did indeed leave a note with Tim Vickers. So...what's the problem? Mike H. Celebrating three years of being hotter than Paris 06:55, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

What Mike said - try and engage him on his talk page first before bringing it here. And no, your post to his talk page doesn't constitute engaging him. Viridae 06:58, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I have no interest in discussing the merits of the block or unblock. However, I think it's appropriate for other admins to review exactly what courtesy is expected before undoing someone elses block. Jimbo was pretty clear. This type of unilateral undoing is disourteous and in some cases grounds for desysopping. --DHeyward 07:04, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Also, DHeyward waited eight minutes between the block and bringing this to AN/I. Sometimes people need to do things in their real life that might not let them write a note right away. Like, using the bathroom. Or walking a dog. Or eating. Or something. Eight minutes is hardly sufficient wait time before bringing it to AN/I. Mike H. Celebrating three years of being hotter than Paris 07:01, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

What the hell are you talking about? --DHeyward 07:07, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, was I not clear? At the top of the page it says specifically that you go to the editor's talk page to resolve the issue first. You waited eight minutes between the block and complaining here. In that eight minutes, he contacted not only the unblocked user but the admin who blocked. In other words, the itchy trigger finger is a waste of AN/I's time. Mike H. Celebrating three years of being hotter than Paris 07:09, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually it was an hour and a half after he lifted the block. --DHeyward 07:13, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Oh really?

01:41, November 8, 2007 Kwsn (Talk | contribs | block) unblocked Perspicacite (Talk | contribs) ‎ (No uncivility found, blocking admin was in conflict with blockee)

01:43, November 8, 2007 (hist) (diff) User talk:Perspicacite‎ (→November 2007 - unblocked)

01:48, November 8, 2007 (hist) (diff) User talk:TimVickers‎ (header)

01:48, November 8, 2007 (hist) (diff) User talk:TimVickers

From what I can read here, exactly seven minutes transpired between all of these events. You then posted here that next minute. So where is this hour and a half? Mike H. Celebrating three years of being hotter than Paris 07:16, 8 November 2007 (UTC)‎

Wrong. I posted an hour after those events. here and here. 22:43 vs 23:49. --DHeyward 07:21, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Then you're the one that's an hour late. He wrote the note an hour before you got here. His events took seven minutes. You were delayed by an hour. So bringing my mistake up actually still makes you look bad here, because you brought it over despite Kwsn doing the right thing, and had completed that an hour before. Mike H. Celebrating three years of being hotter than Paris 07:28, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

There are other disturbing signs: Indef block of User:Masonflick as "Vandalism only" after only a single edit to a non-article. Year long block of IP 205.222.248.208 which belongs to a school. This seems to be a little over the top. --DHeyward 06:59, 8 November 2007 (UTC) Strike based on comments below.

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