Misplaced Pages

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Give us your fucking money

I moved this discussion from the Help Desk--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 14:19, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I saw a banner on Misplaced Pages that said this. I don't care if Misplaced Pages has articles on sex-related stuff, because children won't see them unless they want to. But they will see this banner even if they don't want to. I'm not going to donate, and I'm going to tell children not to read Misplaced Pages in case they see this banner. And where do I complain about such banners? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.189.57.203 (talk) 14:02, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

This banner was on someone's user page, as I recall. Whose page was it (I can't remember)? I thought it was a fairly harmless joke, but understand how some might be offended. Also, this question might receive prompter attention on WP:AN/I.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 14:11, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Assuming the above recollection is correct, I agree with the anon. Misplaced Pages isn't censored of course, but that sounds unnecessarily crude, even in user space. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 14:29, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't see the harm, in user space. I curse in my user space pretty regularly. Parents who don't want their children exposed to the word 'fuck' probably should monitor their internet usage very, very closely. I sympathize with this user, but- well, since we don't know where the banner is, we can't even go and look at it for ourselves and see whether it's appropriate or not. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 14:34, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

It is of course a quote from Bob Geldof, from the original Live Aid tv broadcast. Is it possible somebody has typed this in with a donation, and it's got into the rotation of quotes on the official banner ad? Jheald 14:36, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

A paraphrase of a quote, I think; I have a vague recollection that either Rory Bremner or Spitting Image started that meme. Guy (Help!) 00:06, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

(EC) I think the IP may be referring to the Bob Geldof article... Or not? pedro gonnet - talk - 09.11.2007 14:38

No, i saw the banner myself, it was intended to be a harmless joke i think. I can't remember where i saw it though. Woodym555 14:39, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

In any event, Misplaced Pages is not censored. Dppowell 14:40, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

(copied reply from help desk)Woodym555 14:41, 9 November 2007 (UTC):

Image:Giveit.jpg and Image:Giveit.png was a little joke as the author Neil says at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard#Donation Banner. It is apparently only displayed on User talk:Addhoc, User:Jeffpw, User talk:Jeffpw and User talk:Dynaflow. They are just three of a huge number of Misplaced Pages editors and they personally chose to add this (see for Addhoc) to their own user or talk pages. User space like this is not a part of the encyclopedia and I hope you don't advice people against Misplaced Pages based on something in user space. PrimeHunter 14:37, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I tried to copy it myself but got edit conflict twice. The second time was with Woodym555 copying it! PrimeHunter 14:43, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, you've got to be quick at this game. ;) Woodym555 14:44, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I took it off my talk page in case it offended anyone. I still think it's awesome, though. Neil ☎ 14:54, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Agree that there is no need for admin action here. The banner, while somewhat offensive, is displayed only on a handful of individual user pages that are virtually impossible to stumble upon accidentally. And it is obviously a parody of the famous Geldof quote. No policy has been violated. -- Satori Son 14:56, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

It says "Give us your fucking money" with a link to the official fundraising page http://wikimediafoundation.org/Fundraising, and it's displayed above the page name like other donation banners. Many people don't know users can edit there and readers (like the original poster) are likely to think it's an official banner. This is unfortunate. I think that if it stays then it should be made more clear to readers that individual editors are choosing to display this in their own space. PrimeHunter 15:04, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, PrimeHunter is absolutely right. In addition, the same policies apply to userspace that apply to any other part of Misplaced Pages. WP:Profanity, although a guideline not a policy, is fairly clear:

Words and images that would be considered offensive, profane, or obscene by typical Misplaced Pages readers should be used if they are informative, relevant and accurate, and should be avoided when they serve no other purpose than to shock the reader. Including information about offensive material is part of Misplaced Pages's encyclopedic mission; being offensive is not.

I think this clearly falls into the latter bracket, and the users in question should be asked to be a bit more careful. Waggers 15:36, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I feel as the creator of this little image I should point out I - in no way - intended it as a parody of Bob Geldolf, as I was unaware he even said such a thing, and wish to dissociate myself entirely from him, his daughters, and his maelevolent beard. I just made it for a joke on Misplaced Pages:Fundraising redesign. Neil ☎ 15:54, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I think I see this on the main page FA. --Kaypoh 16:37, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, and I keep reverting the IP whose doing it as vandalism because article space is not a place for these things, and it's obviously being done in bad faith. Bmg916 16:39, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Maybe you should semi-protect it. --Kaypoh 16:47, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

As I said an AN, I love the alternative banner. Since my walk to work every morning takes me straight through the heart of San Francisco's lovely Tenderloin District, that is the kind of language I've come to expect to hear when being solicited for "donations." If the typical Misplaced Pages reader would be shocked by the word "fucking" and would not immediately realize the banner is satirical, I guess I have no choice but to take it down. I did copy the code to make the thing transclude in place of the real donation banner from elsewhere, and if I got rid of that part and just had the image as obviously a part of my userspace, I don't think it would cause quite as much of a fracas should someone be ... accidentally exposed. Page visitors would then have an extra clue, above and beyond the banner's content, that it's satire. --Dynaflow babble 03:34, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

That horrible begging banner currently defacing every single page of this fucking project is what offends me. It's just so...Wikipedian <shudder>. I commend Neil for giving us an alternate that actually puts a smile on my face (though under no circumstances will anything compel me to put any money into this project's pockets--my free labor will have to be enough). For me the choice is clear: it's either the "fucking money" banner (which is really what you're trying to say with the original, dreadful banner) or stop editing until the beg-a-thon is over for the year. Jeffpw 17:33, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Using this image is probably a bad idea. It's needlessly crude and serves no encyclopedia purpose. Friday (talk) 17:48, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Friday, I just visited your userpage, and those pink whatevertheyares scared the hell out of me. Do they accomplish anything encyclopedic on your page??????? If not, I'm afraid they'll have to go, no matter how attached you are to them. Jeffpw 17:52, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

If someone can make a reasonable case that they bring the project into disrepute, I'll remove them without complaint. Friday (talk) 17:55, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I've seen no reasonable case made about the banner; just the usual gosh gollying about little tots and their innocent eyes. Last I heard one could say "fuck' in a PG movie, so I doubt any brat coming to Misplaced Pages would be led down the primrose path to hell by seeing the word on my pages. Jeffpw 18:01, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I think there has been a semi-reasonable case made--that some people may mistake this for an official banner and take the Wikimedia Foundation (or whatever they're called) to be somewhat unprofessional. Not every new editor understands the distinction between userspace and mainspace. Note that I don't necessarily buy this argument, but I don't think it's entirely meritless. In general, though, I'm in favor of more wikijokes, not less.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back 18:29, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Peeps make a queasy whenever I see them, and they bring back bad childhood memories of The Worst Easter Ever. Anyway, there's a difference between being obscene for the sake of being obscene, and taking elements of what might otherwise be obscene and using them for a satirical purpose. The banner in question is clearly an example of the latter. --Dynaflow babble 18:02, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

If this is really being added to articles like the FA of the day, a sensible solution would be adding both versions to the MediaWiki:Bad image list with appropriate userspace exceptions.--chaser - t 18:06, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like a good plan. Make that all three versions; here's another: Image:Giveit.svg. --Dynaflow babble 18:07, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with temporarily adding these three images to the Bad Image List to prevent vandalism, but I still want to be on record as opposing any application of WP:PROFANITY here. Surely the community did not intend that guideline to prohibit the use of colorful language in an obvious satire used only on personal user pages. I fully realize we have to draw the line somewhere, but this behavior doesn’t cross it. — Satori Son 18:28, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Done. — Satori Son 18:49, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Satori, did your edit interfere with the image displaying on my user and talk page? Because it's just a blue link now. Jeffpw 19:12, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

As I understood that MediaWiki feature, it is only supposed to prevent use of those images "inline in articles", but I cannot see the image on your page either. Anyone else more familiar with this feature with some insight? — Satori Son 19:29, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Looks like user pages require exceptions as well. Fixed by others - thanks. — Satori Son 19:33, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't see a problem here, after all WIkipedia is not censored, and it's funny as hell!! (except if you're the Moral Majority ) ;) KoshVorlon ".. We are ALL Kosh..." 19:12, 9 November 2007 (UTC) Kosh Vorlon

I think restricting it to userpage only is a sensible solution, good stuff. Neil ☎ 20:03, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Is there a way to restrict it to a single "domain," or is the only option to restrict the image from all of Misplaced Pages and list one-page exceptions one at a time? --Dynaflow babble 20:32, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I do not think there is any such mechanism in the software. I don't mind including people in the list if they ask at my userpage. ··coelacan 20:55, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I don't think that there is any need for restrictions. I would hope, however, that people would have the common sense and maturity not to use it. I guess it shows quite clearly what kind of people we have on this project, and so in that sense is not misleading donors. User:Veesicle 20:35, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

It was showing up in the featured article earlier, so the potential for abuse is pretty high and I think the Bad Image List is a workable solution. As for the kind of people we have around here, well, we have various sorts, including the sort who don't care for what they perceive as intrusive pledge-driving and who, in the relative autonomy of their own userspace, prefer to subvert that with an irreverent and light-hearted jab. And I wouldn't want it any other way. ··coelacan 20:55, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

If they have a problem with the WMF needing money, they are welcome to edit another wiki. User:Veesicle 21:08, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

They certainly are. And they are welcome to edit here as well. Last I checked, we do not demand that editors sign loyalty oaths. ··coelacan 21:44, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

No, but it is rather childish. User:Veesicle 00:12, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Image:Giveit.svg now helpfully offers: To use this image legitimately, such as in an article about human anatomy or physiology,... I'm now dreaming of legitimately attaching it to such an article. Hm, spleen, perhaps? Bile? (Moreover, it would seem to belong in expletive.) -- Hoary 00:29, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Something else: The banner says "Donate to Misplaced Pages NOW!". Donations are to the Wikimedia Foundation and help Misplaced Pages but "Donate to Misplaced Pages" could be considered misleading. I'm not a lawyer and don't know whether there are legal implications. PrimeHunter 01:54, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

If one wished to donate to Misplaced Pages, he or she would do so through the Foundation, as my understanding goes. There's no logical conflict there. --Dynaflow babble 11:38, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Shop steward's thoughts

While I personally don't struggle with this, I know that this banner can easily be considered harassment. I'm not sure about how this is treated on the web, but if it were in a workplace, and someone might look there FROM a workplace ......., or most other places, one would be vulnerable to complaints on the grounds of the local human rights code. Also, it does not portray a desirable image. I personally despise political correctness with a passion and view it as a plague and would view the inventor of it and ardent supporters of it as hypocritical, holier-than-thou twits. However, the law is the law and there is little anyone can do about that. One can easily make a case, that no part of an encyclopedia should be such as to communicate on that level AND be linked to an official part of the site. It is asking for trouble and degrading to the image of the whole site. Were it allowed, one could then also make a case for permitting that sort of language in discourse between editors. That, however, is not allowed. I would love to use more emphatic language with some individuals on here and am prevented from doing so by the rules. In short, the banner should be altered to delete the f word. If not, then why not say: "Give us your motherf?$§*ß%& money." Or how about: "Give us your motherf.... money, you stupid, motherf&%$, etc." Where do you draw the line, once you allow it? I know that as a union steward, if I had to defend a member who had been disciplined for the use of such terminology, I'd have a serious case. Even if I dealt with it under a collective bargaining agreement, that still leaves the path open for charges with the local human rights commission..... You just don't want to go there in today's environment. Even celebrities are losing their jobs over this stuff now. --Achim 03:15, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

For the thousandth time, "Misplaced Pages is not censored." Please actually go and read that official and non-negotiable policy. We actually have an article entitled f*ck, and it's not going anywhere. We also have articles for sh*t, c*nt, and a**hole. (Yes, ironically I prefer to self-censor my own language, but no policy requires me to do so.)

We make no guarantees that the website is safe for any workplace, nor will we ever. That argument has no legal relevance whatsoever. — Satori Son 04:18, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

I just did some articles may include objectionable text, images, or links if they are relevant to the content (such as the articles about the penis and pornography) and do not violate any of our existing policies . One, this isn't an encyclopedic image being used in an article. So its relevance to the content doesn't really apply here. As far as violating existing policy, some people might consider this to be a little uncivil. 'not censored' doesn't protect this, yet civil would indicate it shouldn't be here.--Crossmr 01:20, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

You're joking, right? "If it were a workplace" It's not, it's a website. There are no collective bargaining agreements and the only work contracts apply to a half-dozen foundation employees who have no connection to this situation whatsoever.--chaser - t 06:34, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

That is just funny :) - NeutralHomer 06:28, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

I Would like this on my userpage, if at all possible - would it be in any way possible o the bad imag list to permit it to be use here? No more bongos 06:17, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

I added your userpage as an exception for all three images .--chaser - t 06:34, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Apologies for typos, my keyboard is broken. Especially E, D and N. No more bongos 06:33, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Don't sweat it.--chaser - t 06:34, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks... No more bongos 07:31, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Hey, if we're taking requests, I'd like to use the banner also. Darkson (Yabba Dabba Doo!) 00:32, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Also  Done.--chaser - t 00:35, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, if that sort of language is all OK, then why don't we go much further? And since we're not censored, then why not throw "being civil" out as well? So that means anything goes, right? What about the N word? I made it quite clear that I was not making claims to legalities here. It's just that it's a slippery slope, once you allow that sort of thing. Apart from that, ask yourself this: If you have never previously considered donating, would you be more likely to donate if the request contained the F-word? Personally, I am not, much as I am amused at the use of it here, but it certainly does not make me more likely to donate. So what's the point of having it? Amusing the author of the banner? --Achim 02:02, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Consider it a bit of rebellion from good standing contributors. I've donated money to the foundation, I'll donate again. The fundraiser banner annoys regular contributors because it is unnecessary to use. If I use a Wikimedia foundation project daily, I don't need to see a banner. But I have no choice. It's akin to being a listener to National Public Radio during pledge campaigns but with the ability to comment in response. As mentioned before, Misplaced Pages is not censored and so follows that the word "fuck" in satire is applicable. If it trips your work filters, sorry for that as well but that's a baseless claim for removal if that is the ultimate problem. By rhetorical definition, those offended are the on the Slippery slope's fallacy. Just keep on editing. Keegan 06:46, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

As I just pointed out above, "not censored" doesn't protect this usage in non-article space. Not censored protects the use of words and images that people might find offensive when they are necessary to article space. It doesn't give you license to fill an article with "fuck" and in fact the policy clearly states that its only allowed so long as it doesn't violate any other policy. So you might want to cruise over to WP:CIVIL and have a read. Which obviously some people feel this doesn't jive with.--Crossmr 15:30, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure who you are asking to go re-read Misplaced Pages:Civility, but let me assure you that I am extremely familiar with that policy. Especially the part that says "Wikipedians define incivility roughly as personally targeted behavior that causes an atmosphere of greater conflict and stress." And the part that says "Profanity directed at another contributor." Please note carefully the "personally targeted" and "at another contributor" language I have bolded.

If someone visited your talk page and demanded that you "f*cking donate," that would be a completely different issue. But colorfully worded satire on your own personal user page is not a violation of any official policy, and it never has been.

I hope it doesn't sound like I am completely insensitive to your concerns. I personally do not approve of such language: I don't use it here and I wish that others would not either. But just as I argued that the personal essay "Don't be a f*cking douchebag" was not a policy violation, I will always defend those who choose to use profanity in a way that is not uncivil. It is simply not behavior that requires administrator attention or action. If someone feels that it should be, they should make a formal proposal at the pump. -- Satori Son 00:06, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Humour is not universal and you're going to have to accept that fact that obviously this isn't universally hilarious as its seemed to be thought. But I don't see how behaviour has to be personally targeted to be uncivil. If I go off on a rant about the general behaviour of wikipedians and lace it with profanity you can guarentee I'll be blocked for it regardless of whether or not I name names. Our code of civility states plainly that people must act with civility toward one another. More than one editor has indicated they don't find this hilarious and have an issue with it. That's enough as far as I'm concerned to consider this as not acting civilly towards each other. Another quote from the page and be careful to avoid offending people unintentionally.. This obvious was unintentional but people have been offended. And 'not censored' doesn't provide any protection here. So there is nothing here to support keeping this image and a clear policy which indicates it should be removed, along with WP:AGF which means you should take their complaints at face value unless you see any evidence to the contrary.--Crossmr 00:19, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not arguing against admin action because I think it's "hilarious"; I don't. And I don't see anything that indicates I have not assumed good faith; I have.

My argument, simply, is that official En-Misplaced Pages policy does not strictly prohibit the use of profanity that is not uncivil. Obviously, I strongly disagree with your interpretation of policy, but I respect your opinion. And if it's supported by other administrators, I will support consensus. -- Satori Son 01:31, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

The moment someone comes here to complain about it, it has become uncivil. Whether its intended as such or not that is how its has been viewed.--Crossmr 06:04, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Even if one grants that it's not strictly prohibited (which I would grant), is that really as high as we aim? I don't really care whether it's prohibited; I care that it's unprofessional, tacky, and unbecoming the dignity of this project. -GTBacchus 09:19, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

You are right: whether a behavior is "strictly" prohibited by policy is not really the standard we use for determining when administrator action is required in a situation, and I have stricken that needlessly restrictive qualifier. My other points still stand. Sorry for the misstatement. -- Satori Son 15:32, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for completely missing my point. Even if behavior is not prohibited in any way, does that make it excellent, or professional, or indicative of any class at all? Is there any reason that we might want to be excellent, professional, or classy? Is our goal to do everything right up to the edge of what's prohibited? Nobody has made an argument that the banner is tasteful, or that their chuckles are more important that presenting a professional face to the world. -GTBacchus 17:50, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Just wanted to correct a mistake I made, not irritate you. I am sorry. -- Satori Son 19:44, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't really matter whether I'm irritated - I'm not really anybody. What I think matters are two things: (a) Can Misplaced Pages rise to the challenge of being culturally sensitive, as opposed to culturally insensitive, and (b) Is our attitude that of doing anything that's not forbidden, or of trying to be as excellent as we can? I don't see how such a banner could possibly be consistent with cultural sensitivity and excellent behavior. -GTBacchus 00:19, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

The key to the civility policy is to act civilly towards others. The presence of the image on a userpage is not directed or addressed towards anyone; it only exists as a self-obvious bit of humorous ironic hyperbole on the part of the user whose page it happens to appear on. Now that the image has been BADIMAGE'ed, there's no worry it might be maliciously forced on a mass audience. If what is causing emotional distress is the image's simple existence, we are dealing with a different issue entirely. WP:AGF also calls for the image's detractors to accept that the users of the image are probably not using it in a manner calculated to shock or offend. As regards the "gratuitous" profanity, as long as we're still citing not being dicks as one of our most important, core values, we have to accept that profanity and quasi-offensive language, in both humorous and merely emphatic contexts, have a secure and long-standing place in Misplaced Pages's culture. --Dynaflow babble 06:21, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't think the humor is as obvious as you make it out to be. I find it cute enough, but Misplaced Pages is read by a lot of people from a lot of different cultures, and writing cultural differences off as some kind of oversensitivity on the part of others strikes me as very unprofessional and unbecoming of an encyclopedia. The f-bomb means a lot more in some places than it does in others. I think the banner is very tacky, and while I wouldn't support sanctions against users who display the banner, I would hope that most of us aim to be a little classier than that. We are being watched by the world, after all. The conflation of profanity with our fund-raising drive is particularly unfortunate, to my mind. -GTBacchus 09:17, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I made the banner (in a deliberately crappy manner with all manner of bad jpeg artifact) with the sole intention of making people giggle when they clicked on the pipelink to it on Misplaced Pages:Fundraising redesign. It wasn't intended for display on talk pages or anything like that. Neil ☎ 09:24, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't mean to suggest that you made the banner for bad reasons, or that anybody who's displaying it is doing so in less than perfectly good faith. I'm just hoping to point out that there may be reasons for not displaying such a banner that some people have not perhaps considered. -GTBacchus 09:34, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

i think it is VERY unprofesional of wikipedia to have such a banner. after i see the banner, i will NEVER donate. americans think saying the f word is very funny. here it is NOT. i didnt come to wikipedia to see that kind of thing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.126.19.150 (talk) 09:44, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't see the argument about the use of the f word's being directed at a specific person. Anyone who reads it may very well feel addressed. The author wanted all readers to feel addressed (Otherwise what's the point?) And the point of the banner is purportedly to get people to donate. I don't think anyone can argue that it fulfills that purpose. That means that either there is another purpose or the author was unable to see that the purported purpose was not served by the banner. In any event, it's in poor taste. I don't see the upside of having it on a site like this. --Achim 18:01, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Is there a good reason to keep these images on our servers? I appreciate that Misplaced Pages is not censored, but that's an important article-space policy. In user-space, we're presenting the face of Misplaced Pages, and I think it makes a lot of sense to appear professional and culturally sensitive. The banners are neither. -GTBacchus 23:57, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

The face of Misplaced Pages is in fact the encyclopedia: article space. We have never had any pretensions of professionalism in userspace. Despite the war on userboxes, and UCFD, and a few sad essays scattered about, there has never been more than a tame breeze pushing for professionalism in userspace. Giant Jefferson and I hope we will never see such a day. And I know it's tragically politically incorrect to say so, or perhaps I'm just a clod, but I can't muster any sensitivity for people who get flustered about fornication. Is there a good reason to keep the images? Perhaps you don't value these reasons, but I do: some productive users like them, the area of usage is confined by the software, the time of usage will be temporary, we never know what potential good we stifle when we curb expression, and there's no consensus to delete. ··coelacan 09:08, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

So, the "potential good that we stifle" when we "curb expression" is worth more than the fact that we're basically pissing in the face of entire cultures? I don't think you're getting just how disrespectful the banner is. Do you walk into churches and spit on crosses, because it's not forbidden? Yes, I'm choosing extreme examples, because I'm trying to get across that, until you've been there, you don't know just how offensive these words are. I was shocked, when I lived in Kenya, to learn just how beyond-the-pale the f-word is considered there. I wouldn't say it there, unless I were trying to offend, and maybe get my ass kicked. Every time I edit Misplaced Pages, I think about Kenyans reading it. Is it really such a painful hardship to be respectful of other humans' feelings? I know a lot of people who do it, and seem to enjoy it. -GTBacchus 00:19, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I think the silly thing about this is how people can make a case for being obnoxious (and the comment isn't made at Neil who made a one off joke and is no doubt bemused about the ongoing molehill/mountain scenario), but at those who then seek to construct a whole principle upon it). In context, I swear, I will even use the odd swear word or two on Misplaced Pages to make a point (and risk being reprimanded), but it is done in the knowledge that swearing is offensive, even on the Internet.

In the end though, gratuitous swearing or obscene images just make those who use it seem ignorant and insensitive. If people want to create the impression of themselves being ignorant, then I guess that is there prerogative, but it does then reflect on Misplaced Pages. People who wear the badge of Misplaced Pages, and to be that includes admins (regardless of it being "just some tools"), need to reflect that what they do on Misplaced Pages is seen as what Misplaced Pages condones. If you want Misplaced Pages to be reported as being run by a group of foul-mouthed geeks, then carry on, but don't fall for the kidology that what you do in userspace is not part of what Misplaced Pages is, regardless of what you think it should be.

It is not the first time I have seen an argument that user pages are off limits to Misplaced Pages rules. This view extends to one that civility does not apply on talk pages (or your own talk page). That is simply unreasonable if user pages are part of the Misplaced Pages mechanism. Spenny 09:38, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

"It is not the first time I have seen an argument that user pages are off limits to Misplaced Pages rules." Who is making this argument? I am not your straw admin. If the image is in violation of some rule, let's hear it. ··coelacan 10:42, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

"... no doubt bemused about the ongoing molehill/mountain scenario ..." ' - you are not wrong. Neil ☎ 10:50, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

coelacan, I will not point to specific examples as I do not want to either revive old wars or fan ongoing ones. I'm not overly fussed about Neil's joke, which only backfired because of someone else's vandalism, but I would simply make the point that generally rude jokes have the potential create an atmosphere of incivility and as such you should be sensitive to those who might reasonably claim to be offended. (Long ramble omitted for all our good!) Spenny 12:06, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Neil's joke, which only backfired because of someone else's vandalism. Exactly. And now that the potential has been dealt with, the rest of this discussion has been only so much Wiki drama, suitable for passing the time on a rainy day, but of no lasting consequence. As a quick aside, I fail to see how this innocent little sign could stimulate so much discussion, while userpages which advocate nuking other countries and spouting racism were allowed to stand for eons before action was taken. If we wish to keep Misplaced Pages from being discredited by its users, perhaps we could first get our priorities in order and deal with those kind of pages--or figure out some way to stop the vandalism which is a far greater problem and makes us look like such an unreliable source of information. Just a thought. Jeffpw 12:14, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. In any case, a little harmless vulgarity can pay dividends beyond a chuckle from those unafraid to laugh at it: "Regular swearing at work can help boost team spirit among staff, allowing them to express better their feelings as well as develop social relationships, according to a study by researchers." Leave the fucking thing be. --Dynaflow babble 13:47, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Dynaflow, I hope you drop the f-bomb sometime in a cultural context where it's considered truly offensive, and then you can explain to the people you upset that their culture is wrong to be so "afraid to laugh". Then, I hope it doesn't get you into too much trouble. Cultural sensitivity is not simply "Wiki drama". -GTBacchus 17:45, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

WP:CIVIL requires we also avoid being unintentionally offensive. As pointed out there are cultures and even people in the west who find this truly offensive. This has no place here.--Crossmr 19:35, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't believe displaying this is intentionally offensive - I'm not intending to offend anyone. I don't see any harm in a little satire in userspace. If anyone reading my userpage would be offended by the banner, I might suggest to them that they should lighten up. No more bongos 21:29, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

There is no requirement that it be intentionally offensive. ...and be careful to avoid offending people unintentionally. The fact that some people have posted here and said they are offended is all the evidence that we need that this could be offensive. Continuing to display something that some people have indicated offends them, services no encyclopedic purpose, and could potentially offend other users may have some questioning your motivation for doing so. We don't assume good faith blindly and had I encountered your userpage outside of this discussion with no previous talk of this issue I'd assume good faith, but now that good faith concerns have been raised and a policy very clearly cited to indicate why it shouldn't be used, we don't continue to blindly assume it.--Crossmr 22:46, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Oops, misread quote above. Well, fine, people are offended and the image is gone. I would suggest that some editors are rather easily offended. I suppose we all have different standards on this kind of thing, though. No more bongos 22:52, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't characterize cultural differences as people "needing to lighten up". I think it's rather provincial to put it that way. Try living in a very different culture, and then see how comfortable you are saying that your culture is right and others are just "easily offended". Misplaced Pages is trying to be a world-wide institution; doing that involves learning about what it means to interact with all kinds of people. They are not to be judged for being different from us. -GTBacchus 00:19, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Direct you to my comment further down. Have seen plenty more potentially inflammatory things on userpages. Misplaced Pages also involves learning not to get unnecessarily inflamed. No more bongos 00:46, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not inflamed. I'm saddened that there seems to be so much resistance to the idea that we might take people's feelings more into consideration than to write them off as "easily offended". Article-space is one thing, and nothing can compromise NPOV. In the rest of the project, I'd rather not offend people if I can avoid it; I'm sorry that others feel differently. The fact that plenty of potentially inflammatory things are on user pages does not make those things classy, or courteous, or good ideas. -GTBacchus 08:52, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Deleted

Note that User:David Gerard has deleted two of the three images. No more bongos 21:10, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I think he missed the third accidentally, rather than deliberately. Joke's over, the thought police have won - I've deleted it. Neil ☎ 22:19, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, Neil, at least one portion of your sign is still providing me with use and pleasure: the code for the sign is still suppressing the crappy beg-a-thon sign from appearing on my userpage. For that I thank you. For the rest, I'll just say I'm glad the well meaning Wikipedians take themselves so seriously. God knows nobody else does. Jeffpw 22:27, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Quite agree. It's possible to edit an encyclopedia seriously at the same time as engaging in light relief, just see List of sex positions. Honestly though, I don't understand the issues people had with this. No more bongos 22:31, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Other cultures are silly; let's laugh at them and at how stupid and easily offended they are. That's class. -GTBacchus 00:20, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

No more bongos, your statement above, "I don't understand the issues," is precisely correct. You don't understand how words sound to people in different parts of the world, and that's why others are here trying to help you understand. Go travel and learn. You don't sit down among Arabs and put your feet up on the table. You don't go to dinner in India and eat with your left hand. You don't make irreverent religious jokes in a religiously conservative country (no matter how stupid you think religious conservativism is). It is a different world out there. -GTBacchus 00:29, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes - however this is the internet. Although I normally agree with those opinions of yours that I've seen, I think in this case you're both drawing irrelevant parallels and being unnecessarily patronising. No more bongos 00:41, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

So what if its the internet? That means everyone should suddenly subscribe to your ideals? Misplaced Pages is also a community. Part of working together is not doing things to offend other members of that community. Its one thing to do it unintentionally, its another to pursue it doggedly after the complaint has been raised. However as a community we aspire not to do it unintentionally in the first place.--Crossmr 01:44, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

No, and would be nice if you didn't try and simplify my argument by extension. Being the internet means we do not have a homogenous moral standard. The nearest thing that exist to this is policy. Policy is flawed and appears to be self-contradictory at times.

Userpages in particular are still a very grey area. If somebody had posted a nice note on my talk page, for instance, asking me nicely to take it down as use of the "'F' word" offended them, I would have given it serious thought. Nobody did this.

Instead - and this is only a probability rather than fact - what appeared to be a regular user logged out and used an IP specifically and only to remove it from my userpage and anyone else who had it, which struck me both as gaming the system and as assuming bad faith.

In any case, parody is parody, and as far as I understand it - and this forms my rationale for displaying it there in the first place - it plays on the visual aggressiveness of the fundraising banner. If people don't find it funny, that's down to them. It wasn't my intention to cause any offence, but I found the reaction here very bite-y, which made me slightly overly combative above.

In any case, this discussion here is getting WP:POINTy, since everything has been deleted, so I invite you to my talkpage to continue the discussion, should you feel the need. No more bongos 02:18, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

"Do you walk into churches and spit on crosses, because it's not forbidden?" No, and in fact that is forbidden; it's defacement of private property. It's not only illegal, but immoral, since I have no right to damage or leave my spittle upon others' property. But to correct your analogy, I have in the past linked from my userspace to this monstrous text in which a terribly insensitive man calls "one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites."

Religious conservatism of all brands is remarkably consistent in relegating women to second-class citizenship, if they are afforded autonomy at all. Women in Kenya who've been raped have to flee traditional society to live safely without reprisal. Rape is their fault only if one begins from the ludicrous superstition that a woman first brought "sin" into the world, initiating bodily and sexual shame, and was punished for it with painful childbirth, thus making sex and reproduction the centerpiece of a busybody institution that maintains mindshare by normative violence in this life and threats of hellfire in the "next".

There are indeed plenty of people who are offended by words denoting human sexuality, and those people are wrong. Their beliefs are rooted in misinformation, and are factually wrong. Their beliefs contribute to sexual and gendered oppression, and thus are morally wrong. If they learn their beliefs from their cultures, then their cultures are wrong. Insofar as their culture restricts freedom of conscience and freedom of speech, it is damaging to humans and must be opposed, or we will still be born free but live everywhere in chains. Insofar as my culture values and protects liberty to a greater degree, yes, my culture is better.

If we pretend that an aim of communication should be to appease the most easily offended, then let us not neglect to cover the female visage, easily as offensive to some people as the word "fuck" is to others. If we pretend this a moral endeavor, let us make haste to remove all graven images from Misplaced Pages servers (surely a worthy criterion for speedy deletion). But I'm confused; you mix in pragmatic arguments too. If I should shut my lip in Kenya lest I be beaten, this is but amoral pragmatism. On the other hand, GTBacchus, if you felt it pragmatic to restrain your vocabulary or "maybe get ass kicked", then this unspoken but understood shadow of violence is all the more reason why those people are morally wrong.

It is impossible to avoid offending someone. I have just offended many people with my assertion that my culture is better than any culture which lacks liberté, égalité, fraternité. You have offended me with your suggestions that I should kowtow to my neighbor's superstitions. Sensitivities, then, cannot alone dictate what stays or goes at Misplaced Pages. Those who sought the deletion of the images should have taken the question to MFD. Consensus rules here, and these impassioned defenses of taboo might, sadly, have carried the day. For future reference, though, such exhortations are lost upon me. ··coelacan 09:19, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I find it a shame that you mistake courtesy for taboo. If I suggest being mannerly, apparently I'm "kowtowing to superstition". If I think it's better that we try and get along with each other, then I'm "trying to appease the morally offended". You're pretty sadly mistaken about me. I'm probably more opposed to "taboos" than most people you'll meet, precisely because of experiences I had in Kenya. That does not, however, mean that I think that casual vulgarity is going to set matters right. I still believe in treating others as I would like to be treated, and for me, that means maintaining a certain level of decorum and class.

I think it's entirely appropriate that we have articles confronting such practices as female genital cutting, which is hardly addressed in Kenya because they've got taboos against saying words such as clitoris. That's not the same as keeping vulgarity on our user pages. There's a time and a place for shocking people by dropping the f-bomb. I don't see how our user pages at the encyclopedia is that time or place. -GTBacchus 13:45, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps I'm missing something but where, exactly, is "stupid and harmful banner" listed as a reason in the criteria for speedy deletion? Or was this an out-of-process deletion undertaken with zero participation in discussion and with absolutely no desire to follow Misplaced Pages policy, either in spirit or letter? Oops, my mistake. —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 03:13, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Please see WP:IAR. We do not owe unencyclopedic pages "due process" or something. If you wish to formally contest the deletions, Misplaced Pages:Deletion review is right there. Furthermore, I find it very easy to see how the deletion was an attempt to follow the spirit of various policies. Assuming good faith is easy if you can just place yourself in another's shoes. If you can't... um... yeah. -GTBacchus 08:58, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

The image was deleted on behalf of the m:Communications Committee because it was in extremely poor taste while representing the WMF. ⇒SWATJester 10:05, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, in any event, I was only using the wonderful image to obscure that annoying banner from my userpages. Now that a helpful editor has told me how to edit my monobook to obscure it from every single page of wikipedia that I view, I'm even happier than I was with Neil's banner. For me, the issue was being harassed for money each time I gave my free labor with an edit. Now that's offensive, in my opinion.Jeffpw 18:09, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

What a load of bullshit. Can I now demand that all American Wiki users are required to remove the Stars and Stripes flag from their user pages, as it is offensive to myself, and others that are still rightfully aggrieved over the illegal rebellion perpetrated on what was rightfully and legally UK holding? What a joke. I just hope the "editors" that spent so much time here moaning about this spend as much time chasing rasists, vandals and other dickheads.Darkson (Yabba Dabba Doo!) 19:54, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

We do. Also, I didn't "demand" anything. I asked that people take others' feelings into account, instead of not doing so. Apparently, that makes me an asshole. -GTBacchus 21:24, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Frankly, yes. (With due respect otherwise). Duja► 08:20, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Not you, but David Gerard did quite a bit more than ask, he forced the issue. And Swatjester claimed it was on behalf of ComCom, which has not made an official statement at all (nor was such a thing cited in the deletion summary). The images were ALREADY on the bad image list, therefore they could not have been placed anywhere near article space anyway. —Random832 17:11, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

We're not civil only in article space. People found them offensive, civil covers this, 'not censored' doesn't make any exemption for jokes in poor taste, I'm not really sure where the disconnect is here and why some people feel they should be allowed to be as offensive as they want in the name of humour.--Crossmr 21:13, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

The question, though, was whether it was really on behalf of ComCom, and whether it is appropriate to claim that if there was no foundation-level involvement in this decision. —Random832 19:03, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

TShilo12 (talk · contribs)

I was about to issue a short block to TShilo12 (talk · contribs), but thought I'd bring it here for pre-emptive review instead. I first noticed this user when he posted vague, unsupported accusations of anti-Semitism against another editor while simultaneously complaining about violations of WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL. I warned him at the time, he argued with me, but ultimately there were no further problems and the issue dropped.

Today I noticed that User:TShilo12 added new "evidence" to the "Allegations of apartheid" ArbCom case, which closed several weeks ago. The "evidence" in question was not evidence at all, but merely a rehash of the unsupported, inflammatory accusations he's made in the past (). All the worse, this was added to a difficult and controversial ArbCom case long after its closure, in what appears to be an attempt to inflame and perpetuate the dispute.

I view this sort of baseless accusation of anti-Semitism as a problem for 2 reasons: first, because it violates the core of WP:NPA by attacking the character of another editor rather than his arguments. Secondly, there are real, dyed-in-the-wool anti-Semites on Misplaced Pages, and abusing the term to smear someone in a personal dispute without any sort of evidence cheapens what is a very real problem. I see no mitigating factors to what appears to be a serious, unsupported attack, made in a long-since-closed ArbCom case, designed to inflame a dispute, and coming after a previous warning. My inclination is to issue a short block here, but as NPA blocks are always a bit controversial and I generally don't issue them (not to mention the underlying issue is inflammatory), I'm bringing it here for feedback before I do so. MastCell 19:06, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I could be happy with the NPA block but a stern warning and reversion of the addition might work too. I certainly agree with your thoughts here. JodyB _{Roll, Tide, Roll} 19:39, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm surprised and disappointed to see that TShilo12 has done this again. As far as I know, I'd never had any interaction with this editor before he made his unprovoked personal attack on me and other unnamed editors ("an opinionated and misinformed gaggle of know-it-all admins") back in August. I've not had any involvement with him since, other than asking him on his talk page to withdraw his attack (see User talk:TShilo12#Your accusations), to which he did not respond. I have no idea what prompted this fresh attack, since I don't habitually edit Jewish-related articles and my editing lately has been fairly light. Once again it seems to be completely unprovoked. What makes this especially disappointing is that I see he's actually an admin of about two years' standing, so he of all people should know that Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks means what it says. Given all of this - the repeated attacks, the lack of any contrition, and the fact that as an admin he knows that this isn't acceptable conduct - I think a more significant penalty is merited. I'm not calling for a desysopping (though his conduct does make me wonder about his fitness to hold the sysop bit), but I do think this requires more than a 24 hour block. As an admin myself, I think we need to show that we can hold ourselves to a higher standard, particularly when it involves repeated, willful and unprovoked misconduct of this kind. -- ChrisO 20:15, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to go ahead with a 24-hour block for repeated and very serious personal attacks, aggravated by the choice of venue. If there is evidence that an editor is an anti-Semite then that's certainly a valid issue, but it's absolutely not acceptable to repeatedly make such a claim without any supporting evidence, based on what appears to be personal animus or something, and to aggressively complain about a lack of WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL at the same time. Unsubstantiated and repeated accusations of this sort are corrosive to any sort of dialog or community-building here. I recognize this is potentially controversial, so if there's a strong feeling (i.e. multiple editors/admins) that this block is inappropriate, then I'm willing to undo it (or if I'm offline, I don't object to it being undone provided there is real discussion about it here rather than a unilateral reversal). MastCell 22:52, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I think this block is totally inappropriate. MastCell was involved in the arbitration in question, and had a particular viewpoint, and should not be blocking people who take a different viewpoint. I also don't think TShilo's comments necessarily violated the rules cited. When an editor (and admin) such as ChrisO consistently takes a particular viewpoint, in this case on articles involving Israel, and has been accused (including by me) of using his admin powers to promote that viewpoint, I think it is acceptable for someone to speculate on his motives. (Compare this with ChrisO's past repeated references to a group of "pro-Israel editors", I can find some diffs if necessary.) The real issue here is that MastCell's use of his admin powers in this manner is an abuse of his authority. I also agree with the statements of IronDuke and Briangotts, below. 6SJ7 04:26, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

There is no lack of admins around that are not involved in these disputes; why not to just ask an uninvolved party to look at the situation? I just do not understand what is the rush to put oneself in a compromising situation with these type of blocks. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:47, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Hello? What rush? I brought it here for comment before imposing the block, and I asked for review after imposing it. The thread sat here long enough to be archived, and the only response I received was generally in favor. If you disagree with the block, then fine, but you really need to check your facts before accusing me of being in a "rush" or a "compromising situation" here. MastCell 18:56, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

The point is, you really shouldn't have been involved at all. 6SJ7 00:07, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Somebody neutral please take a look at this

Ummm… my God? This block is wrong in so many ways. First of all, MastCell, you seemed to me to be very much a partisan in the very arb case from which you excised TShiloh’s comments. To have blocked someone who you disagree with therefore is inarguably an abuse of your admin role, not to mention that blocks for NPA are not generally given except in very severe cases (which this clearly is not), nor am I aware of a block policy regarding adding evidence to a closed case—and if that were a policy, I’m sure the clerks/arbs could handle it.

What Tshiloh was up to, near as I can tell without having talked to him, was blowing off some steam because nasty things were being said about him in an arb case that he was not informed of until after it closed; I think most of us would find that pretty frustrating.

And you leave this up for just a few hours on AN/I (when you can clearly see TShiloh has stopped editing and can’t respond), and get exactly two responses, one lukewarm support at best, the other from ChrisO, who I think we can all agree would not be a neutral voice as this concerns him directly, and you take this as what? Community endorsement? Consensus? I recognize that there are tough calls to be made in blocking form time to time; this is not one of them. I urge you, or some uninvolved admin, to reverse this ASAP. IronDuke 05:30, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not willing to unblock at this time. Is MastCell in conflict with TShilo? Because simply "disagreeing" with someone does not prevent you from blocking them; that's not part of the blocking policy. I don't think MastCell is claiming community consensus; he made it clear in his message that he is planning on blocking, does anyone object? No one objected, so he did. I don't understand what would compel someone to make accusations (and that's using a far milder word than I think could apply) of the sort TShilo has made while being entirely unwilling to present any sort of evidence or support. Judging from the previous responses of TShilo to questioning, I'm unsure that a block will do anything to deter him from his actions, so it could be argued that the block is punitive rather than preventative. I'm not entirely convinced of that, which is why I'm unwilling to unblock myself without knowing much, much more background. If the actions do continue, then steps up the dispute resolution ladder must be taken; this behavior is absolutely not acceptable in any shape, fashion, or form. —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 05:49, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

bbatsell, thanks for the quick and thoughtful reply. When I say that MastCell is in conflict with TShiloh, I mean that he was a party to a case that was brought against people who are, or who are perceived to be, pro-Israel, and that the strong possibility exists that, as no remedies of any kind were enforced in that case, MastCell is using a tenuous excuse to block someone he's had a political dispute with. See here among many other instances of MastCell’s taking a decidedly political position on this issue. If I may offer a mild global criticism; I think admins are far too willing to overlook fairly obvious conflicts of interest when other admins use blocking to gain an advantage in content disputes. It troubles me greatly. IronDuke 06:04, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

The conflict of interest here couldn't be more clear. Briangotts (Talk) (Contrib) 17:19, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Just chiming in here, but I find:

Secondly, there are real, dyed-in-the-wool anti-Semites on Misplaced Pages, and abusing the term to smear someone in a personal dispute without any sort of evidence cheapens what is a very real problem.

an incredibly important and valid point, just for future readers. DEVS EX MACINA _pray 04:02, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with IronDuke and Briangotts, and also see my comments before the section break. The block here was unjustified. 6SJ7 04:26, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

You guys really need to take a deep breath and check your facts before you go off here. I don't even know where to start addressing such ill-informed vitriol, and I don't see the point in refuting every poorly conceived attempt to paint me as "politically motivated" here. I'll just refer the reader back to the diffs I originally cited as the justification for the block, and point out the following: I brought the proposed block here before imposing it and asked for review afterward; the truly neutral parties who have commented have no problem seeing the utter unacceptability of TShilo12's behavior; making excuses for him ("blowing off steam"?) instead of holding him, as an admin, to a slightly higher standard is incredibly lame; and I've never been in any sort of content dispute with TShilo12 and have no idea how I'm supposed to have contrived this block to win a content dispute. If you can't see this situation for what it is - a block for egregious, repeated, unapologetic, and unacceptable personal attacks - but instead see me pursuing some sort of poorly fleshed-out political agenda, then that's a bit problematic. Or perhaps it's just more "blowing off steam". MastCell 19:22, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I think those of us who know the situation can see the block exactly for what it is. You were breathlessly urging arbcom to employ “the stick” against those you disagreed with in the case to which TSHiloh was a party. When they failed to do take action, you contrived an excuse to wield it yourself. Shameful. IronDuke 23:42, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Once again, all of this falls into the usual death spiral of conflict among those of a supportive-of-Israel bent and those of a critical-of-Israel bent, of which I am admittedly/regrettably a part of as well. Any administrative action taken by a participant (or a perceived participant) of one camp against a member (or a perceived member) of the other camp is instantly met with suspicion, accusations, and voices of support for their respective members/adherents/whatever. This is a larger beast than Tshilo12 and WP:NPA that is rearing its head here, and something really needs to be done to address it. The latest ArbCom attempt went out with a whimper, so what else is there? Tarc 22:18, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I just want to say that this a rare case indeed: I fully agree with Tarc. This is only the 2nd time it occured. 3rd time I'll have to buy him icecream. Zeq 15:36, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Tarc, I basically agree with you; there is a great deal of suspicion and mistrust on this issue. What can admins do to help? How about not make blocks to further their own political agendas? What troubles me most about Mastcell’s serene indifference to how his actions would be perceived is that he was right that nothing would happen! He used admin powers to punish someone who disagrees with him politically, and all you hear on this board is the sound of crickets chirping. IronDuke 23:41, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

You've succeeded in completely undermining your credibility, and I don't think your comments warrant any further response, particularly as the block has expired and has been supported by the uninvolved editors who have commented here. It may be worth noting, regarding the ArbCom case, that while I argued against any sanctions for TShilo12 there (), I did present evidence that you and 6SJ7 had disrupted Misplaced Pages to make a point. Now here you two are, defending this sort of inexcusable crap as "blowing off steam" while attacking the admin responding to it. One might be inclined to wonder which of us, exactly, is gleefully pursuing a political grudge here. MastCell 03:14, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

MastCell, you’re welcome to stop responding; I think that would actually be a positive thing for you to do right now. I will say, however, that the diff you provide makes my point better than I made myself. You were involved in a spat with TShiloh, who was a party to a case and grouped with editors whom you strongly disagreed with for political reasons. You saw an opportunity to pick him off, and you took it. Yes, you had ChrisO’s support (who was himself involved in a dispute with Tshiloh) and one other lukewarm support; did you need even that much to do what you had already made up your mind to do? You have now me, and Brian, and 67SJ and Jossi all telling you that you made a bad blunder, but you’ll admit to nothing. I understand the block has expired and nothing can now be done—I’m not asking for anything to be done, other than to make plain to you and to others that what you’ve done is wrong, and that it will be called wrong again if you try to bully others with admin powers in a content dispute. That is all. IronDuke 04:08, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

You know, the sound you're hearing isn't crickets chirping. It's people ignoring your attempt to turn yet another corner of Misplaced Pages into a battlefield. MastCell 04:50, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

MastCell, you were one of the people with the torches and pitchforks in the arbitration (in which, by the way, neither IronDuke nor I were found to have done anything wrong), and you accuse someone else of turning Misplaced Pages into a battlefield? Give me a break. 6SJ7 05:34, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I think I've said everything I have to say about this. MastCell 06:09, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

(outdent) Whether or not a block of one's political opponent is "proper", it is usually inflammatory and that's a good enough reason not to do it. A good block accompanied by thoughtful commentary from a neutral admin can make the block recipient become a better contributor. Blocks by opponents are less likely to have that effect. It would be really nice for admins from both sides to decide that henceforth they won't be blocking anyone from the other camp. BTW I've had the privilege of having both pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian editors tell me that I'm clearly on the other side. Kla’quot (talk | contribs) 07:13, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Well it sure is lovely to see Ironduke and Zeq so agreeable, but I think they missed the point entirely. Statements such as Duke's "How about not make blocks to further their own political agendas?" are becoming the essence of the problem here. Admins are being called to recuse themselves, etc...on the basis of their perceived beliefs and ideologies, not because of specific actions or circumstances. Even the proverbial "uninvolved admins" get savaged when they go against one bloc or another, as we saw in one of the ArbCom-related DRVs. That is what has to stop; this neverending second-guessing of motive. Tarc 15:49, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Look. Sanity check. I'm not a member of any "camp" here. The fact that I disapproved of IronDuke's and 6SJ7's behavior in the ArbCom case does not make me "pro-Palestinian" or "anti-Israeli" or a "political opponent" of anyone. It makes me an admin who's fed up with the fact that users are allowed to turn those articles into battlegrounds and pursue exactly these kind of vendettas with zero consequences. The (apparently successful) effort to cast anyone who disapproves of the tactics of specific editors as de facto political opponents is exactly the problem here. Leave the rhetoric behind and look at the facts. I have never edited any articles touching on Israeli-Arab relations, nor ever expressed a political stance of any sort that I'm aware of. I had no interaction with TShilo12 other than to warn him, months ago, for an unacceptable personal attack. He repeated the unacceptable personal attack, and I blocked him after seeking feedback. The neutral parties who commented were generally supportive. Two editors with a grudge against me from an old ArbCom case showed up in tandem to level a bunch of unsupported accusations, as if the problem here was not TShilo12's unsubstantiated, corrosive, repeated personal attacks (remember those? anyone?) but the fact that I blocked him for 24 hours for them. 24 hours. No admin saw fit to unblock him, despite a plea from IronDuke to do so and an explicitly stated willingness on my part to accept an unblock. TShilo12 didn't request an unblock himself. You're seeing a group of editors addicted to drama using this as an excuse to fight about something. The block expired days ago. It's time to move on. MastCell 17:08, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

If you were so interested in reducing tension in these "battlegrounds", why then was your evidence overwhelmingly on the side of the anti-Israeli position? That doesn't make you a referee, that makes you a combatant. And again: you posted here for feedback, waited just a few hours, got one uninvolved editor to comment with lukewarm support, and blocked someone with whom you very much appeared to differ politically, and had tangled with in the past. And FWIW, if TShiloh had decided to block you, for good reason or bad, I would be having this same conversation with him. I'm sorry Kla'quot struck out his point, as it was a good one--you talk about drama addiction; did you really not think anyone was going to object to your using admin powers in this manner? Anyway, it's all water under the bridge now. I just hope you'll let someone else do the blocking when it comes to editors you've had bitter content disagreements with in the past. If you could commit to doing that now, that'd be great, but I won't hold my breath. IronDuke 17:59, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

(Response to MastCell) Good points. I agree the "evidence" that you have different politics from TShilo12 is awfully thin. I've struck out my statement above because although I think it's true in a general sense, I'm not sure it applies well to this particular incident. Kla’quot (talk | contribs) 17:29, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

(Response to IronDuke) Exactly my point. I took the position, in the ArbCom case, that you and several other editors view Misplaced Pages as a battlefield and were entirely too willing to disrupt the encyclopedia to make a point. That position is in no way "anti-Israeli", it does not make me a "combatant", and the fact that you are unable to see it in any other terms reinforces my point. MastCell 18:05, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

If you're not going to respond to my points, you could just stop responding altogether (as you keep threatening to do). IronDuke 18:10, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I did respond to your points, but you twice moved your comments out of chronological order and made it look like Kla'quot was responding to you and I to him (, ). I regret participating in a discussion this petty, and I think I'm done here. The Last Word is yours. MastCell 18:30, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Hopefully, the last word is mine. I have, as I've implied elsewhere, received offWP email in which a number of the foremost contributors to the whole "Allegations" fracas have been characterized as antisemitic. I singled out ChrisO for particular criticism in my original remarks back in August because I regarded his closure recommendations as an open endorsement for the suspension of AGF in an apparent last gasp effort to keep anyone who might disagree with his stance from closing a particularly contentious AFD. That said, however, I am being accused of whimsically brandishing the bludgeon of Allegations of Antisemitism. The bludgeon here, however, is MastCell's finger on the "block" button, just as ChrisO's bludgeon back in August was attempting to drag as many people into the Allegations ArbCom case as possible. Contrary to what some people seem to believe, I was not an involved party in that dispute, although I found that ChrisO attempted to make me one by pointing out that I had !voted in the fifth reincarnation of AFD/AoIa. If anyone cares to take the time, they will see that I never called ChrisO an antisemite, I said that I could see why others might. OffWP emails aside, this is not something you all need to see my emails for. If you look at the evidence and reams of pointless "foul!"-crying in the relevant RfAr, you will find that ChrisO himself says people have accused him of antisemitism. Why I should be bearing the brunt of MastCell's misdirected rage is beyond me, but in the discussion that followed above, I am flabergast by the amount of effort being poured into defending the indefensible. If what I have done warranted a 24 hour block, what MastCell has done, coupled with the time and effort wasted in its aftermath, warrants someone removing the mouse and keyboard from his computer.

With respect to my crime of editing the evidence page of a closed RfAr, ok, that was dumb. I should have known better. The "evidence" is still pathetic. If I were actually involved in the RfAr, I probably would have even known it was closed. Seriously, the entire thing was a complete waste of time. The articles all need to go, as I stated in my !vote (oh no3s! my "involvement"!). Cerejota put it best. (And no, I would not have voted to delete Israeli apartheid.) What's sad is that Homeontherange created the mess, in an effort to push his anti-Israelism on WP, and succeeded spectacularly...but is now gone (at last check) from WP. His lieutenants, however, are keeping up his legacy nicely. !Kudos.

As for my not sitting around waiting for MastCell and ChrisO to respond to their solemnly worded remarks on my talk page, in August or now, I do not have as much time to edit WP as I did back in the day when I was unemployed. If something irritates you so badly that you feel a need to block me for it, try email next time, I'll probably get to it sooner. I must say, I was shocked to return to WP tonight and find not only that I'd been blocked (thanks for blocking me over Shabath, btw), but that the ridiculous block had generated this much discussion. Enough standing around the water cooler, people. Enough rambling from me, as well as from the rest of you. Go write an encyclopedia. Tomer 04:44, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

The takeaway message I'm getting here is "only an admin with a hole in his head willingly gets involved in Israel-Palestine articles." How about we cordon off that whole topic from the rest of the encyclopedia, let the partisans fight to the death, and indef block the survivors? Raymond Arritt 05:23, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, you know what Oscar Wilde said.... or is it the other way around? Tvoz |talk 05:38, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I've read this discussion with some bemusement, but I have to say that it's symptomatic of the problems Misplaced Pages is having in this area. Leave aside the subject matter for a moment. The issue at hand is a behavioral one on the part of certain editors who happen to be supporters of a particular political POV. (It could just as easily be pro-abortion, anti-Scientology, pro-Ron Paul or any one of a number of other controversial topics. It just happens to be Israel-Palestine in this case.) Some of these editors - who don't by any means represent everyone who shares their POV - are using obnoxious methods to delegitimise and intimidate anyone who disagrees with their views. In particular, critics of their views are tarred as racists, regardless of any actual evidence. They go further, by attacking in similar terms anyone who disagrees with their debating or editing tactics. They also behave as a faction, using Misplaced Pages policies as a club to attack their perceived opponents while minimising policy violations by their perceived friends. We can see exactly this dynamic playing out in the discussion above. For criticising what I regarded as policy violations, I'm attacked as a racist; for acting against a policy violator, MastCell is attacked as politically biased; for violating policy by posting anonymously sourced smears, TShilo12 is defended as merely "blowing off steam".

This is a nettle we're going to have to grasp at some point. We can't have a situation where admins are reluctant to intervene against blatant policy violations because rabid partisans are going to gang up and attack them if they do. The likes of IronDuke and 6SJ7 aren't just addicted to drama (though they are, of course); they're purposefully trying to create a situation in which Misplaced Pages's policies and conduct standards aren't applied to them or their faction because admins are too intimidated to intervene. This, of course, isn't acceptable. It's not going to be an easy problem to fix, since the rot is pretty deep by now, but it would certainly help if some of the worst offenders were banned or at least given a topic ban. IronDuke and 6SJ7 in particular wore out their welcome a long time ago.

Finally, I have to say I'm disappointed that TShilo12 still doesn't seem to understand why what he did was wrong. His defence amounts to "I was only forwarding unsubstantiated anonymous smears." If he doesn't recognise the wrongness of that he's lacking in common decency, let alone common sense. During the allegations of apartheid arbitration, I was sent a number of fairly rabid e-mails smearing some of the other editors involved in the arbitration. I deleted them on the spot, and I have no intention - unlike TShilo12 - of posting something to the administrators' noticeboard (!) repeating anonymous smears against named editors. I'm totally unconvinced by his claim that he hasn't had time to respond to my request back in August for a retraction (since when he's made over 500 edits); he likewise hasn't responded to my second request a week ago, despite taking the time to post here and reply to two other editors in the meantime. So I'll ask him a third time: TShilo12, will you retract the anonymously sourced, unsubstantiated libel that you posted about me? -- ChrisO 16:46, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

There's a tendency for trolls and partisans to attack any administrator who attempts to set limits on bad behavior. We need to not fall for the lie that enforcement actions cause an administrator to become "involved". If that were the case, there would be no way to enforce policy. An involved administrator is one who has a bona fide editing dispute with a party. I don't think this was the case here, or at least I don't see the diffs that would make such a case. - Jehochman 17:03, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I also don't see how MastCell qualifies as partisan or involved in this fracas. I further share ChrisO's concerns about the disturbing tone and atmosphere in the Middle Eastern related editing spheres. Tiamut 20:10, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

ChrisO, you can't have it both ways. Either people have characterized the anti-deletion of AoIa "cabal" as antisemitic or they haven't. I have not done so myself, neither regarding you nor anyone else; I have simply said that others have. You have said the same thing. If you don't remember, go look at the rest of the evidence you presented on the /evidence page. I have never said anything to the effect that I agree with the assertions, I have simply said that I can understand where the impression has come from. Empathy does not equal agreement. And as for your assertion that you AGF, I think your statement above, in which you call me a liar, pretty effectively puts the lie to that. Tomer 03:51, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Fake accusations of antisemitism are a problem on Misplaced Pages, and are usually accompanied by silly attempts at deniability of the sort TShilo12 indulges in above (I have never said anything to the effect that I agree with the assertions, I have simply said that I can understand where the impression has come from – yeah yeah, whatever). I don't know that blocking is the answer, and I'm not much for blocking/banning editors involved in incivility infractions in and around I/P articles anyway, because those seem to go with the territory, but it must be said that MastCell went about it in the right way.--G-Dett 06:02, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

How you can pompously believe that what you have just said isn't a blatant personal attack against me defies reason. But reason has long since been abandoned in this discussion, so I guess that's par for the course. Why should you be any different? Disgustedly, Tomer 06:25, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

BetacommandBot blocked

I've blocked BetacommandBot for incorrect operation. It's been tagging images that are not claimed as "fair use" as "orphaned fair use": see, for example, . Betacommand has not responded to my concerns that this is confusing for new users; he thinks that because templates such as {{no copyright holder}} place images in the category Category:All non-free media, it is appropriate to treat them as fair-use images. --Carnildo 20:52, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

BCBot has been blockec numerous times for incorrect tagging, I think Betacommand might be in the process of fixing it. He is usually rather quick in fixing problems to get it running again. Qst 21:07, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

(As an aside, I deleted the image, it was an obvious copyright violation though the tagging was somewhat unclear. It was taken from and the source image is copyright General Electric... Georgewilliamherbert 21:08, 13 November 2007 (UTC) )

It's just the example I came across. I could probably find a dozen more without even trying by looking at images OrphanBot's tagged recently. --Carnildo 21:12, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Would you mind doing that so we can take a look at one that hasn't yet been deleted? Thx, Wikidemo 21:20, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Have a couple: --Carnildo 21:30, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Slight correction, is an inappropriate NFCC #10C tagging, not an inappropriate "orphaned fairuse" tagging. --Carnildo 21:32, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

From WP:NFCC: For purposes of this policy "non-free content" means all copyrighted images and other media files that lack a free content license. Such material may be used on the English Misplaced Pages only where all 10 of the following criteria are met. (bold mine)

Then, from the same page: 7. One-article minimum. Non-free content is used in at least one article. (bold mine, note that it does not say "fair use")

I can't say for sure, that I follow where BetacommandBot was doing something disruptive. SQL 21:21, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Technically, you are correct. However, the point of {{no source}}, {{no license}}, and the like is that we don't know if it's under a non-free license or not. All we know is that it does not have a free license tag.

The specific disruption is that, by adding a potentially irrelevant tag, new users are confused as to what's wrong with their image, and the image will be deleted after 48 hours, not after the seven days that {{no source}} allows. Since new users don't visit Misplaced Pages on a regular basis, the image can easily be deleted before they have a chance to fix any problems. --Carnildo 21:30, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Nevertheless, it appears the bot is correctly applying the image policy in tagging these images. — Carl (CBM · talk) 21:33, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

No, it is clearly wrong to tag/claim that a fair use claim is invalid when there is no fair use claim in the first place- and in fact no claim at all. The bot isn't applying policy here, it is generating random noise. While the bot sometimes gets it right, we shouldn't let it be this blatantly wrong. GRBerry 21:49, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

The image in question was tagged as orphaned and nonfree, and it was both. The image was on our servers without a free license, and used in no articles. — Carl (CBM · talk) 22:17, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure if you are referring to the same image I am. The one I'm referring to is Image:MOP.jpg. Before Betacommandbot screwed it up, there was nothing in the image page about it being a fair use image. Then the bot falsely claimed that the image was orphaned fair use. There was never a fair use claim, so it wasn't orphaned fair use. It was orphaned, but it never had a fair use claim. It was completely unsourced, which is WP:CSD#I4 and would have led to deletion even if Betacommandbot had never touched the page. So Betacommandbot is not helping in these cases, it is making things worse by causing confusion and making it harder to fix the real problem. GRBerry 22:35, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Considering how many times the bot has been here with some sort of problem like this, perhaps it's time to retire the bot completely? Argyriou (talk) 22:02, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Won't happen, sadly. But it would be a glorious day for many, many editors. Neil ☎ 22:09, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm against retiring the bot without a replacement being available. We do need to comply with NFCC policies, and like it or not, automated tagging is the best way. Maybe if BC could break the bot out into several userid' bots (BetaCommandBot1, BetaCommandBot2, etc). According to this http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special%3APrefixindex&from=Bots%2FRequests+for+approval%2FBetacommandBot&namespace=4 it is approved for 8 tasks. At the very least, multiple bots would prevent the entire operation from being shut down if one of them goes haywire. Mbisanz 22:11, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually, splitting separate tasks into multiple bots sounds like an excellent suggestion. At least that way when the programming gets screwed up, we could only shut off the affected tasks. We've seen bad coding too many times to let this continue. GRBerry 22:34, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

this was not caused by me, it is an improper use of {{non-free media}}. Template:No copyright holder contains that template. {{non-free media}} is used to label non-free media. β 02:19, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

It is caused by you. It wasn't too hard for me to add various exceptions to OrphanBot; how hard can it be to add a check to BetacommandBot that says "if there is a deletion template on the image, then do not place an 'orphaned fairuse' or 'fairuse disputed' template on it"? --Carnildo 02:41, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Please unblock BetacommandBot soon, please. I need it to inform me when my pictures get removed from articles, so that I can vent some incivility upon some of my fellow wikipedians. Jecowa 03:43, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I'd say that the bot shouldn't be unblocked until the tests requested by Carnildo are added, and ideally, until the tasks are separated into separate threads under separate bot accounts. Titoxd 16:35, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Just a small comment here, the whole point of the {{non-free media}} template was to add it to our non-free image copyright tags to make it easy for a bot to identify non-free images without having to maintain a huge list of tags that are exceptions or special cases and such. So the solution here is obviously to make sure {{non-free media}} is only actualy added to non-free copyright tags, and not all sorts of deletion tags. I'll just go remove {{non-free media}} from teh various "no source" "no license" tags and this will no longer be an issue. --Sherool (talk) 18:44, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for taking initiative to fix the problem, Sherool. She rule. Cereal. Pizza. Oh, sorry. It's that ADD thing. Jecowa 20:32, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I will not separate the bot into separate accounts, As for the error with {{non-free media}} I would have removed that template my self but I cannot edit protected pages. Also BCBot needs unblocked still. β 22:02, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Please leave it blocked and do the whole project a favour, or at least let's open up another RFC or something. DEVS EX MACINA _pray 05:18, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

"I will not separate the bot into separate accounts" - what a helpful response to good faith suggestions. Why not? It seems like a very good idea. If you can't manage the coding, I'm sure someone could give you a hand. I note the bot has been unblocked now. Perhaps we should have a sweepstake on how long until it breaks down again (). Neil ☎ 09:48, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Because it would be seven more talk pages to monitor and seven more accounts of redundant code in which to make bug fixes and because it's his bot and he doesn't want to. Jecowa 16:53, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Also see KISS Keep It Simple Stupid, A core principle that I use when programming. β 14:43, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

It's also much simpler to do whatever the hell you want and respond rudely when questioned about your or your bot's actions. You, sir, are the very model of what an admin should not be. Argyriou (talk) 19:25, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I try to respond to every reasonable question, in a calm and civil manner, If Im a little frank its because I dont like playing word games or wikilayering. People asked that I split the bot into seperate accounts and Im saying that I will not do that. If I dont explain my exact reasons its because 85%+ of the people reading my comments will not understand the technical concepts. β 22:48, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

AWachowski long term use of affilation to discredit other editors

I warned this user several times under his previous incarnation of Lwachowski to stop broadcasting my (many times stated) affiliation with the BKWSU. However he persistently uses this technique to imply untrustworthiness and an agenda on my part . In the linked example he's complaining about the removal of a link to a community site that was established to be inappropraite by an rfc .

Whatever the complexities of the article may be, I hope I get some support for the principal that these constant comments about me and other editors and their affiliations by AWachowski will now have to stop. I would appreciate some kind of assertive remedial action to enforce this in no uncertain terms. I have suffered this abuse pretty-much for as long as I have been registered on Misplaced Pages. AWachowski is just one more of a long line of incarnations that seem to find this technique useful. I suspect Green108 is a notable previous incarnation.

There are many more examples of this. Just look at any post made to a talk page by these users.

Thanks & regards Bksimonb 13:42, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Aren't AWachowski and Lwachowski username violations for being confuseable with famous real people? 70.227.232.162 17:12, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Well you may well have a conflict of interest. Maybe if you are involved in this new religious movement you shouldn't keep editing its article? Secretlondon 22:09, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

If you are a Christian should you not edit articles on Christianity? Also I have left the really major changes to the article to other non-involved editors. For the record, AWachowski has quite a major conflict of interest, otherwise why would he edit the article and post comments in such a blatantly aggressive way? If you believe what he is saying that my membership of the BKWSU is a show-stopper then his propaganda campaign to discredit other editors is obviously working. I would hope my willingness to accept an NPOV article and work in a reasonable way with neutral editors would determine how much of a COI I really have.

I hope that you are not implying that perceived conflict of interest on my part means that no action should be taken to enforce a basic NPA policy? Either he is intimidating other editors unfairly or he isn't. Please enforce the policy. That's all. Thanks. Bksimonb 05:39, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Apologies, I appear to have ranted. A more appropriate and considered answer would be that, yes I probably do have a COI and I would be happy to discuss the issue and explore solutions for ensuring the article doesn't become defamatory and misleading as it has done in the past. However, right now, I would really appreciate that the specific problem that I have highlighted is addressed in some way so that I have at least some chance of working on a level playing field in a civil environment. Much appreciated Bksimonb 16:34, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

If Bksimonb has a COI, then AWachowski has just as much a COI if not more being an ex-BK (and a particularly vehement one at that). COI does not prevent one from editing; one must discuss changes and gain consensus on the talk page and refrain from controversial edits. This position should go both ways here. Right now there is little attempt to get consensus on the talk pages. AWachowski makes huge wholesale changes without discussion and Bksimonb is reverting back to the previously agreed-upon version and trying to get discussion on the talk page to gain agreement on changes. Renee 23:43, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Without getting involved, it's apparent that User:Reneeholle is also involved in this edit war, so again, objectivity in this argument doesn't seem to be apparent. It's pointless crying 'COI' at someone if you yourself have an obvious COI. I'd suggest that perhaps page protection for a while, to let everyone cool down might be a good idea. Perhaps an RfC in the duration. Coldmachine 09:33, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

hmmmm...let's see, I've made one edit to this article in 6 weeks and that edit was to revert Wachowski's complete overhaul of the article, made without discussion on the talk page. You'll see on the talk page I took the time to give feedback on each change he made, which was virtually ignored. Please check the facts Coldmachine before you accuse people of being involved in edit wars. Renee 14:09, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

It should be noted, completely unrelated to anything above, I have blocked the account for violating our user name policies. --Jeffrey O. Gustafson - Shazaam! - <*> 12:59, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Shazaam!. Let's see what account name comes back.

In response to the previous posts, I'm curious, as a principal, shouldn't WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA been enforced regardless of any other COI or editing issues. I thought that nothing excused personal attacks or incivility, especially if it is directed with purpose over a long period of time. Regards Bksimonb 13:49, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

User:Yidisheryid

• Yidisheryid (talk · contribs · count · logs · page moves · block log)
• Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets/Yidisheryid
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive302#In which there is a dispute between User:Yidisheryid and User:Avraham.

I am afraid that the user is exhibiting symptoms of recidivistic behavior, especially as relates multiple personal attacks against multiple editors, incivility, misunderstandings and misrepresentations of wikipedia policies such as reliability, verifiability, hoaxes, and Misplaced Pages:Non-free content, among others.

The user has a history of sockpuppetry, and was blocked for such, and only unblocked after issuing an apology.

The user was brought to ANI earlier, see here for these issues, and especially for his habit of redacting other people's edits. The user was blocked for disruption and incivility, admitted such, and once again, promised to reform.

Unfortunately, there has been no indication of any reform; au contraire, there is only further evidence of incivility and personal attacks note edit summary , improper accusations of admin-tool abuse , continued ignorance of wikipedia policy even after being informed , and subtle and overt changes to others' comments . More examples exist.

Since I am this person's main target for abuse, it is possible that I am too close to the issue, so I am asking my fellow editors and sysops here to comment on this user, his track record, his recidivism, and whether or not some time to review wiki's policies and rules would be helpful, or perhaps other remedies, such as a topic ban or long-term block would be appropriate to prevent further disruption to articles relating to Judaism, Zionism, Israel, and attacks against other editors. Thank you. -- Avi 21:17, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I have noticed that every time there is heat against him at one project he moves on to another project as can be seen here evidence for incivility, misunderstandings and misrepresentations of wikipedia policies such as reliability, verifiability. It's been ongoing for more than a year now, every time he is quiet on yi I see him active either on en or he.--Shmaltz 23:14, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

for the record i am active daily in all 3 wikipedia languages; he; en; and mainly Yi.--יודל 14:21, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

• "au contraire"? Is this the Spanish Misplaced Pages, or something? LessHeard vanU 23:15, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
  • No, but the term is pretty selbstverständlich . -- Avi 23:26, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
  • it's not Spanish, it's French for "to the contrary" ;) -- lucasbfr 14:00, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

YY's Reply

Who am i: First of all i can say to u i am a man of many wrongs and the community may decide that they don't want to put up anymore with me if they deem me a drag on the wiki, to tell u the truth i was blocked many times in Hebrew wikipedia and many more in the Yiddish wikipedia, and now i am back full force corrected and straightened, after all so much dedication, well over 40.000 edits daily i have declared the wikipedia my addiction and home, mostly in my native language Yiddish where i was already 2 times sysop, i am faulty and nobody has to live with me, but until i am not thrown out of here i believe in this medium especially for my community the Williamsburg Brooklyn Hasidim which needs desperately a form of transparency of knowledge and information to cope with our repressive lifestyle, i have not spoken the Hebrew language nor the English until a very recent time in my life, i believe that we must interlink all those 3 languages and many more on all topics.

Uncivility and Personal Attacks

i will try to answer all the links avi brings one by one and to explain it, and let u judge it as u see fit. he claims that i am uncivil and use personal attacks, i beg everybody to look at his links not the last edit link but my answers to him as well, (i will have time i will link them as well) about my detractors i have nothing to say, but please keep in mind that this is an ongoing constant attempt by Avi to get me blocked and last time i tried to show his pattern about me i was blocked for it, so i am silent. Yes i have ticked off the few users mainly Avi and Shmaltz and yossia and Izak. but i beg to consider my contributions just as worthy as theirs, shmaltz and yosia arent active and avi and izak i consider as better users than i but before u want to block me on their word i would like to correct myself so be very clear what i have done wrong and i will change by further noticing my blemishes thanks for everybody who feels important here to comment and on my behavior, i will take them deeply into my heart and construct it into positive motherly criticism and nurturing of my humanism.

Sockpupetry

i was never ever a sock puppet, and once i was guilty of vote socking which i did not know at the time to be illegal.

Disruptive

yes i was found to being disruptive at one moment back a few months by an admin who blocked me for 24 hours, i had at the time apologized and moved on. please take a look at the whole incident and see what i did wrong was heavily debated and even though i did nothing wrong in of each incident because i was found by others of dismissing their opinion i felt a need to apologize so what it was boiling down to it is lack of respect to other users, which i was promising not to do again and i hope i did breach my promise.

Ignoring Policy

also about my ignoring policy he brings his accusations that i ignore them, never did i take policy here easily i read them over and over, and i even translated all of them to the Yiddish wikipedia, i will answer everybody and retract my words all the time if somebody shoes me that i am wrong, i have even been accused of being a flip-flopper because i changed my opinion after rereading policy.

Changing others text

also about his links that i make neutral headlines on my talk page, it was already discussed in a previous ANI nomination by Avi, and it was answered that i may put my headline above his if its my talk page, as long as i don't temper with his words--יודל 13:49, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

--יודל 12:39, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Re: Avi's Acusation of YY changing others text

• I won't comment on the rest (i looked at a few and agree with you on some points), but your "subtle and overt changes to others comments" examples are both changes in a heading level (not even the text), and addition of a comment (with its own heading) above it - in one, he even explicitly states what he has done to avoid even the appearance that it is intended to mislead people about what someone else has written. It seems like you can build a case against him without resorting to such accusations, so why'd you throw that in there? A heading is not part of a comment, and thus is not owned by the person who wrote the comment. People change talk page section headers all the time with no objection, and he didn't even change the actual text in either of your examples. —Random832 13:39, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Please be clear on what other points there is a case against me so i can correct it. thanks--יודל 13:59, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

My own interactions with YY have always been civil, though we frequently disagree on specific issues. I think the general tone sometimes not ideal, but not outside the run of things here. DGG (talk) 20:21, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the tone taken with myself and others has been rather the contrary, as the links above demonstrate, I beleive. However, thank you for your input. -- -- Avi (talk) 21:14, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

User:Dbachmann

User or adminstrator (I can't figure out what he pretends to be) User:Dbachmann insinuates I am a neofascist. I don't have anything to do with fascism, I despise fascism and don't know what he is up to. To me it seems he recurs to ad hominem for lack of arguments to support his point of view, since I always take effort to source as well as I can. Maybe it sounds silly (it probably is), but I suspect his personal commitment to the Kurgan hypothesis is the root cause of his impolite attitude. Anyway, I don't think such a personal grudge is healthy and it feels as if he is rallying people against me. I don't think throwing dirt and loose insinuations are acceptable. Recently he dedicated in removing a lot of what I contributed, and only came up with a lot of personal accusations to have this justified. I think he needs a break. Please take a look at this discussion: User_talk:Dbachmann#Kurgan_hypothesis. Thanks! Rokus01 23:04, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Dbachmann is an administrator. Prodego 23:13, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

"...I have never been prepared to compromise with disingenious pov-pushers. Intelligently argued neofascist pov-pushing is just the same to me as dumbly argued Afrocentrist pov-pushing..." is a pretty unwarrented insinuation and is counterproductive on Dbachmann's part indeed. — Save_Us_229 00:02, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

dab overreacted, but is understandably frustrated given what Rokus is adding to these articles. I've interacted with Rokus in the past, and his M.O. is to add large globs of text to inappopriate places in articles, usually sourced to obscure Dutch authors, and usually written like an essay. Perhaps an RFC is in order. - Merzbow 03:25, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

You're kidding, right? I'll vouch that dab is very frustrating in his zeal to wipe out nationalism, and what he calls fringe. ~Jeeny 07:30, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

If you have followed Rokus's edits you will understand both of Dab's comments about Rokus's disingenuousness and his "fascism". As Merzbau says, Rokus's MO is to create impenetrable bodies of obscure argumentation with elaborately mystificatory claims apparently supported by citations which often turn out to be only tangentally related to the arguments he is making. He is a master of WP:SYN. He will always react strongly to the accusation of fascism, for the simple rerason that all his edits are tied to a POV that the "Nordic race" of north west Europe were the original Aryans and that a pan-Germanic mythology underlies cultures in Northern europe, which is somehow associated with this 'racial' identity. This is standard mystical Aryanism familiar from the early 20th C. Paul B 11:33, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Paul Barlow, you and DBachmann lost a chance to prove how sincere your "battle against fascism" really is, when DBachmann failed to support me in the revert discussion I had with one of his protegés (you): Talk:Nordic_theory#This_is_NOT_a_good_article. And you even refused to have the folly of the masterrace addressed in terms of racist ideology, and dared to idealize fascism with WP:OR, contradicting academic sources forwarding something so basic as to define nazism being a characteristic feature of fascism. Sincere? I rather have the impression DBachmann and you are abusing such would-be anti-fascism to create a false pretext of "neutral credibility", like DBachmann is doing now in the other intolerant battle against Afrocentrist pov-pushing. This is not sincere, this is hypocrism. Maybe you think you can fool somebody sometimes, but you can't fool everybody all the time. Rokus01 19:40, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

As usual, you are barely intelligable. Nazism is not "a characteristic feature of fascism". How can Nazism be a "feature" of fascism, since fascism predated Nazism? It's a particular form of fascism with its own unique features, as everyone on the fascism page pointed out to you. Paul B 00:30, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

There is extended revert-warring on the part of Dbachmann and he was recently warned by two administrators on his talk page. — Nearly Headless Nick {C} 05:58, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Afrocentrism and related articles are a mess, and those of us who frequent WP:FT/N are very grateful to DBachmann for taking the lead in keeping unsourced nonsense out. I see that's what the 'warnings' are about. Relata refero 06:34, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Not, he's a bane, and does nothing useful but makes others angry and frustrated. ~Jeeny 07:30, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I sorry if you feel angry and frustrated, but perhaps you should realise that Misplaced Pages articles can't always look the way you want them to look, and it isn't always other users' fault. Relata refero 08:56, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Dbachmann is trying to keep fringecruft out of Misplaced Pages articles, and Rokus01 is very often criticized by other editors for adding such material, see e.g. Talk:History of the Netherlands, Talk:Frankish mythology and Talk:Paleolithic Continuity Theory. I think that Dbachmann is doing his job well as an administrator.--Berig 06:40, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I challenge anyone to review Rokus' contribution history and find a major edit that isn't a complete head-scratcher. For example, - "Applied on the issue of origins of the Indo-European languages, the approach resulted into a set of prepositions supported by generally accepted principles that lay the burden of proof on the shoulders of competing theories, especially when relying on invasions." His contributions are filled with text like this, and invariably they are either unsourced or the conclusions are synthesized. Another: - "the Netherlands could be considered one of the worlds most underestimated cradles of people and civilization." I can't figure out exactly what type of weird pro-Dutch pseudoscientific agenda he is pushing, but it's not encyclopedic.- Merzbow 06:45, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Merzbow, it is impossible to communicate with everybody on the same level of understanding, still I am grateful you made your problem clear by quoting a sourced phrase that was literally copied from Alinei. Did you challenge yourself? In the second phrase you missed the key word "underestimated". Equally, I could forward similar compelling arguments to label the contribution to civilization of Sub-Sahara Africa "underestimated": or did you already know that Europe's Neolitization was accomplished by people of originally Sub-Sahara stock? Very easy to call this Afrocentrist pov-pushing whenever mentioned, still I am convinced some facts deserve special notice, especially with people that miss an open mind. Rokus01 19:40, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, you can challeged Rokus' contribs. But there are many others who have a problem with Dbachman. He is uncivil, arrogant and is just as bad as those he refers to as trolls. I'll be back with more examples. But, I may not because I don't really want to waste my time. I'm pretty sure there is another AN/I about his behavior somewhere in the archives. He's actually threatened me and other's with his powers while engaged in an edit war. This is but one of many edit wars he's been in. ~Jeeny 07:26, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Recently I've also had issues with this particular administrator very similar to the issues you've mentioned above. Not only is he exceptionally uncivil to the point of blatantly rudeness and insults but also has a habit of reverting without note, as can be seen here: One may also note that he's taken a short quip from a small review here that is basically an off the cuff insult and used it as the descriptor for this page's article here, which I removed and gave my suggestion as this obviously is an attempt to frame an opinion and violates WP:NPOV. The response? A simple reversion on his part without explanation. I've had past disputes with Dbachmann but I've noticed he's becoming more bullying and bullying lately and I simply don't have the time to go through his edits and pick out what he's called (or lumber together wtih) "fascists" today or "Neo-Nazis" yesterday without a source. Because of this and my concern for Dab's edits as well as his reckless usage of these terms and the associations they bring on to their subjects, I've decided to speak up here. :bloodofox: 08:07, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

A reminder: will those who don't spend time around nationalists and supremacists of various descriptions please not throw the first stone here. Relata refero 08:56, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I support Rokus. Dbachman is very rude and Impolite. He is never objective in his arguments and always tries to comment on the motivations of the user. And the comments pretty much drop down to insults. He also keeps on editing articles he has no clue about. Some one should take action upon this admin. He is a real menace to wikipedia. Xyzisequation 09:18, 15 November 2007 (UTC) — Xyzisequation (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• I filed the Sadi Carnot arbitration case about fringe theory pushing. Before coming to ANI with complaints, I suggest each of you prepare a detailed report offline to document the fringe theory pushing, or the administrator misconduct that you allege. If you provide clear evidence, either here or via RFC, I can offer advice, warnings or sysop services as needed. For the moment, I see scattered diffs that don't tell a coherent story. ANI is for complaints, not investigations. I recommend you better organize your evidence. If you wish to collaborate in private, Google Documents is a useful tool. You can place the final report in your userspace and reference it in your complaint. Here's an example: User:Durova/Complex vandalism at Joan of Arc. Thank you. - Jehochman 09:29, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Quite right. The mere repetition of complaints won't be either addressed or considered relevant on AN/I. If those who object to Dbachmann's efforts can pool together their complaints, it might be reasonable to ask if there's a case for ArbCom to accept, but I don't think that this will get anywhere. Relata refero 10:03, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Dbachmann is merely trying to enforce Misplaced Pages's core policies. After all, we're supposed to be creating an encyclopaedia here. If POV-pushers are allowed to skew content and add inaccurate information, then we're failing at our primary aim. More admins should be following dab's example, then perhaps he wouldn't get so frustrated. --Folantin 10:41, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

No action? This user has been highly uncivil and has responded to my request for civility with disdain and generally questioning my good faith as an editor. Saying: "Just teaming up with any editor that happens to be "pro-Afrocentric" no matter how pathetic their output is unwikilike, disingenious, disruptive..." He implies that all users who disagree with him are unintelligent. This isn't what I expect from an admin. futurebird 13:43, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Forget the process wankery, leave Dbachmann alone, and try to help him out. He's one of our best contributors and has done an absolute mountain of good work. If he's getting frustrated, there's a reason why. Look for the subtext, look at the content! I'll try to get my head around this over the next 24 hours or so, provided the India wars haven't completely killed off my sanity by then :) Cheers, Moreschi 14:04, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

SurferDude7 Engaged in a Personal Attack

SurferDude7 posted a very uncivil comment on the Talk Page for Fighting for Justice. This comment contained a personal attack against the editor, who was called an "absolute pervert" and was told that he "belong(s) in jail." Although the offensive commentary has already been removed and I just posted a warning about personal attacks on SurferDude7's Talk Page, administrative action may also be in order. ~ Homologeo 02:22, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Needs be warned, but only made one single edit. A bad breach of WP:NPA, so one and only warning issued with {{uw-npa4im}}. David Ruben 03:02, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Misleading signature

The Parsnip! is using a totally different username in his/her sig. The sig points to "Nobody of consequence". Can we please force them to change the sig? - Nobody of consequence 04:11, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

People use pseudonyms in their signatures frequently here. If his signature was inappropriately linking to a user page that wasn't his, then it would be an issue. I do have concerns, by the way, about your post here considering you just registered 3 minutes people you posted this. This feels like a WP:POINT violation to me and probably a bit of WP:SOCK as well. Metros 04:15, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

If a person is posting on one account and signing as another, should the account not be blocked for being a socketpuppet?--Dacium 05:35, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Block away, I'm not going to use the account. - Ta bu shi da yu 07:15, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, that's not what's happening here. User:The Parsnip!'s signature is as follows: Nobody of consequence. It links to xyr user page, but the text reads Nobody of consequence. Because User:Nobody of consequence seems to have created that username solely because the reasonably established User:The Parsnip! was using that text as a signature, should User:Nobody of consequence be blocked for impersonation? WODUP 05:40, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

User:Nobody of consequence registered the account for the sole purpose of wasting our time here, and has been indef-blocked accordingly. Cheers, ··coelacan 06:45, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Wrong. Not created to "waste your time" (if you have enough time for WP:AN/I then you have too much time). Signatures should be clear. This one is not. Also, that's a pretty cool username. There's a good chance that someone woudl have eventually created it. What would someone do if they create and start using the username after this editor uses the misleading signature? Do you see where the problem lies? - Ta bu shi da yu 07:19, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks also for sharing your opinion of those who donate their time to ANI, that they merely have 'too much time on their hands.' --Golbez 08:13, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I didn't say it was not worthwhile, I just said that they have too much time. - Ta bu shi da yu 08:23, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

It would only apply if that was an actual user; since you created the account only to complain about the sig, I would have to say you aren't an actual user yet. --Golbez 05:56, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I created it. This clearly gets in the way of the signature. It's a bad move. - Ta bu shi da yu 07:11, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

P.S. not resolved. The sig needs to be changed. - Ta bu shi da yu 07:11, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps before demanding we might wait to see if The Parsnip!, having been told, apparently in good faith, that his signature is, at least to some, confusing, expresses a disinclination to change his signature. I'm not at all certain that WP:SIG would counsel that he change his signature, which, after all, is really, in the absence of the Nobody of consequence account, no more confusing than is any other signature that differs from the attending username, but I'm certain that it, and, you know, all of those conduct policies that mean to codify the collegial, collaborative spirit that underlies the project, would counsel that one make a civil request (preferably one that stems from legitimate confusion or prospective confusion) that a user change his signature before bringing the issue to AN/I; here, a request from the Noc account was made just two minutes before the issue was posted here (even as Ta bu, at least, subsequently requested that TP! change his signature, the request wasn't, IMHO, ideal), and I cannot imagine that there is anything further to be done here before TP! has occasion to reply. Joe 07:35, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Disagree. Looks to be fully resolved. In plain English - you had a beef with the way his sig read so you went and registered under the name, then minutes later came to ANI to complain about it (WP:POINT). In that case, YOU are in violation and not The Parsnip. Had you (or someone) created that username and started to contribute, and after a short time then had a problem with it (also after properly contacting and informing The Parsnip about it) - that would have been a valid ANI entry. As stated above - you are wasting people's time here. Rarelibra 07:21, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Oh come off it. I'm hardly wasting any time here. You're basically telling me that you spent 3 minutes on this thread, and that this "wasted" your time? And no, I'm not in violation of anything. - Ta bu shi da yu 08:25, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Indeed. I'm rather shocked you would waste our time with this Ta bu shi da yu. Especially since you should know the signature and sockpuppet policies, and know that your actions have violated both. ⇒SWATJester 07:26, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I know the signature policies. That sig is misleading. As for sock puppets: come on off it. There are heaps of sock puppets, many of them do great work. I used it for one edit, didn't disrupt anything, unless you think me reporting this to WP:AN/I as "time wasting". Had I reported this to WP:AN/I with my normal username, we would have had the same conversation, and I can assure you that accusations of time wasting would not fly about. How is this any different? - Ta bu shi da yu 08:23, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Because you initially came off as a troll, instead of a long-time valued member of the community. --Golbez 08:25, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't change the substance of what was being requested. - Ta bu shi da yu 09:58, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I'll quote WP:SIG here:

While not an absolute requirement, it is common practice for a signature to resemble to some degree the username it represents.

So there is no pressing need for us to make him change his signature. He has a right to do it if he so pleases. It never interfered with another user name until you created the new user name. There is nothing an admin has to do here. Metros 11:12, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

It interfered with me, as it wasn't immediately obvious when I was trying to respond to them who I was actually talking to. It is disruptive, and we've blocked for this before. So, no, it is something an admin must do. Again removing the resolved! It is NOT resolved!!!! - Ta bu shi da yu 12:45, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Given that Nobody of consequence is now indefinitely blocked so cannot be used or recreated then this particular problem is now moot. ---- WebHamster 12:51, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

My God, I wake up this morning and this is what I find? There is absolutely NO RULE that says I can't change my signature to show as a pseudonym, in fact the preferences tab explicitly allows for it. If anyone should be blocked, it's Ta bu shi da yu (talk · contribs) who should be blocked for violating WP:POINT, for deliberately creating an account just to try to force the issue, and for being highly disruptive with this absurd shrillness. All kinds of people do what I do and I can't think of anyone ever having a problem with it. Nobody of consequence 14:45, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

(reset indent) NOW I see why this person went on their WP:POINT spree with me. I MFDed Misplaced Pages:Facebook, which Ta bu shi da yu (talk · contribs) then speedy closed out of process. That page is NOT an official policy or guideline, so there is absolutely no call whatsoever to speedy close it. Someone really needs to look into this and deal with it because this person is seriously overstepping his authority. Never mind, I see it's been listed at DRV. Nobody of consequence 14:53, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

With Ta bu shi da yu being an admin, I would have assumed he would have first brought up the concern with the signature on The Parsnip!'s talk page with either a personal note or by using {{uw-username}}, which exists for this exact reason. Then I would have thought Ta bu shi da yu would suggest to The Parsnip! to create an account as User:Nobody of consequence and redirect it to The Parsnip!. Even as it is, I would still recommend an admin allow the account to be reset so The Parsnip! can usurp it and mark it as a {{doppelganger}} account.

On a different note, I would like to see Ta bu shi da yu bring this up at WP:U and initiate discussion to change the policy exactly as he has stated here. I have agreed with for some time now the same points he brings up here, only to be rebuffed by the policy. I would actually support such a change in username policy, but this is not the platform nor manner in which to do so. Making a point, I have unfortunately found, usually works (but can be harmful to the point maker's reputation in the long run). Regards.--12 Noon 17:18, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I've modified my signature so the "C" is now uppercase and created a corresponding doppelganger account that redirects to my original account. Nearly Headless Nick, for example, has done the exact same thing, so hopefully this is kosher and eliminates the signature problem. Nobody of Consequence 18:33, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

You didn't make a doppelganger account - you made a user page for a non-existant user. Which is different from what Sir Nicholas did. He registered the "Nearly Headless Nick" account so it actually exists. Yours doesn't, and technically the User:Nobody of Consequence and User talk:Nobody of Consequence pages could be speedied under WP:CSD#U2. Awyong Jeffrey Mordecai Salleh 01:35, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

The complaint here does look a troll, but I do wish that WP:SIG unambiguously required a sig which displays the username. It's a pain having to mouseover a sig to find out the username of the editor concerned, which is essential if trying to track contributions. I don't mind sigs of the form ] (myname) so long as the "foo" is displayed. If "The Parsnip!" wants to change username, that's fine, but a sig which displays something completely different is at best unhelpful. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:21, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

The start of this thread looks like the absolute most ass-backwards way to bring up what otherwise could be a legitimate issue. If you want somebody to change their sig, I dunno, just ask them? Build consensus? No need for silly sockpuppetry or other attempts to make things a bigger problem than they are. I don't have a strong opinion on the policy matter itself, other than to be glad it's being discussed, now. – Luna Santin (talk) 20:24, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

What is there for admins to do?

At this point, what is there that admins need/have to do with this situation? The Parsnip! has tweaked his signature and created a doppelganger account. Nothing needs to be done as far as I can tell. Any further issues with this should probably be directed to WP:SIG as that would be the place to debate the logistics of whether these signatures need to be eliminated or not. Other than the ridiculous point violations of Ta bu shi da yu, is there anything else here that admins need to discuss on ANI or can this be marked as resolved? Metros 20:39, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Not yet since all s/he has done is to create a couple of userpages for a non-existent user. Awyong Jeffrey Mordecai Salleh 01:35, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm a "he." If you want to speedy the redirects to enable me to create a doppelganger account, go ahead. But please tell me what it is you want me to do (how to create the dop account satisfactorily) so we can be done with this. Nobody of Consequence 02:21, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

It's not possible anymore, Ta bu shi da yu has already registered an account with a similar name. Although I don't think anybody cares anymore. east.718 at 02:23, 11/16/2007

I just tried it and yep, it won't let me. Although the error message said I can ask an admin to create the account for me. If someone here wants to help me by doing that, then that would be lovely, however I've done all I can do. Nobody of Consequence 02:34, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Check your email. east.718 at 02:38, 11/16/2007

Media director of national presidential campaign editing article

At John H. Cox, Lkharrington (talk · contribs) inserted this edit into the article. In that edit, the user states that she is Linda Harrington, the media director for Cox's campaign for president. The edit was later reverted and I just gave her a warning for conflict of interest issues. Since this is a campaign for the presidency (albeit not one of the "big guns"), should anyone "up the ladder" in Misplaced Pages be made aware of this much like a sensitive IP being blocked or is it perfectly fine to leave the situation as is? Thanks, Metros 04:12, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I think we should assume good faith and say that this person is trying to edit helpfully, dispite the fact that the claim should have been linked to a verifiable source ;) We're going to get plenty of problems over presidential candidates in the coming year. this is a minor one not meriting more than standard action. Physchim62 (talk) 17:35, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Agree. There's nothing special about a presidential campaign. Certain sensitive IP addresses should not be blocked without going "up the ladder", such as the US Congress IP range, but otherwise any disruptive user can be warned by any editor, or blocked by any administrator if there's a reason. You should invite Linda to use the article talk page to recommend edits. She's just unfamiliar with the way things work here. Additionally, Misplaced Pages:Business' FAQ provides useful guidance. - Jehochman 17:40, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

User:Corticopia

Note - since this hasn't been addressed but had been archived, I'll copy the discussion here. If this is the wrong thing to do, my apologies. Vizjim 06:41, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

This user is abusive, adopts a confrontational stance at all times, and makes the experience of editing Misplaced Pages less enjoyable for others. This is a long-running low-level irritation at the Cyprus page, and I would ask interested editors to refer directly to both the talk page and to the edit summaries on the article history: similar issues can be seen at Geography of Mexico, Metropolis, North America, and so on. It is not a question of accuracy, but of incivility (and, on a side note, an insistence on incorrectly marking changes as "minor"). I and others have repeatedly requested that the user abide by the usual WP:CIVIL guidelines, but he refuses to do so. I note from his contributions history that he is engaged in similar low-level unpleasantness on several other geographical articles, involving many other editors: this reassures me that, while my own behaviour is certainly not perfect, I am not alone in finding Corticopia a disruptive and aggressive presence. An experienced administrator's intervention would be useful here. This complaint was originally posted to the Wikiquette alerts section , and has been redirected here with the comment from User:Jamessugrono as follows: "This should be at either WP:AIV or WP:AN/I, this user has been blocked far too many times for this to be simply a matter of incivility - there are plain, obvious, disruptive edits". Vizjim 10:33, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

I totally agree, since he created that account he's being contributing mostly to Mexico-related topics, for reason that couldn't explain in one paragraph but if you check his record you'll see what I mean, I myself have had countless confrontations with him, usually reverting my changes with the excuse of NPOV, and it's not just me, users Jcmenal and AlexCovarrubias (who's been absent for a while) have had the exact same problem, Alex even suspected he was a sock of a previous user that was banned, he even has some evidence but for some reason nothing happened, I would really like the intervention of an administrator here, he uses profanity and uncivil manners and it should not be toletared in Misplaced Pages, there has been too many warnings for him. Supaman89 17:13, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

I'll just add to the list the constant playing around and gaming of the system with respect to 3RR, again visible at Mexican and Cypriot pages. Vizjim 08:03, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

OK, I guess I'm being dumb but... I don't see these disruptive edits. Any chance I could have some specific diffs for the violations you mention (i.e., incivility and edit warring)? If you can substantiate these allegations, I will certainly take them seriously, given Corticopia's history of being blocked for these reasons. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 08:08, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

He constantly deletes his talkpage to hide his messages but here are some of them:

• Edit War - Geography of Mexico
• Bad Attitude - Cyprus
• 5 reversions in less than 24 hours - Hawaii
• Erased the whole comment and only left the part where the other guy looked bad - Hawaii
• Someone told him that he could archive his talkpage instead of deleting them - He erased it anyways
• He's blocked again for one month for engaging in edit wars
• Again he erased another comment listing all his negative and disruptive attitude
• Once again blocked by 72 hrs by breaking the 3RR rule
• Look at the summary, what's up with "crap will be expunged"?
• 3RR breakage
• Another edit war in Mesoamerica

And those are just a couple of examples, I could easily keep looking for two more hours, but I think it gives you an idea of what this user is like and how he's been behaving all this time. Supaman89 16:57, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Couple of add-ons - Rude edit summaries, e.g. , and abusive arguments - e.g. . Vizjim 19:05, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

He is perfectly allowed to blank his talk page; in fact, it acknowledges he is reading the messages. I see the Hawaii link you listed was from August and he was blocked for two weeks for that. It would be helpful if you focus on any post-block activity (or just add the dates so that it's clear how long this covers); listing specific events through his entire history (especially activities for which he has already been blocked) will probably be counterproductive. I've also informed him but it looks like he doesn't tend to respond. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 07:24, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Corticopia is not the wiki's most civil user but we also shouldn't allow him to be constantly poked and proded like this, either. WilyD 14:17, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

The rudenesses in the dit summaries and on the current Cyprus talk page aren't old news, though. As I say in the complaint, I originally brought this up at Wikiquette and only brought it to AN/I on a suggestion received there. Basically, Corticopia's refusal to be polite, achieve consensus, etc, in the discussion on that page suggests that he's going back to his own tricks: as such, I was hoping that an admin might be willing to have a quiet word and let him know that his behaviour is (again) being watched. This seems preferable to waiting until he does something for which a long outright ban will be required. I certainly didn't mean for this single action to come across as "constant" poking. Vizjim 22:57, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Abusive socks of Dans1120

Dans1120, who is a member of the Something Awful forums and who has previously posted threads in those forums about vandalizing Misplaced Pages, has used at least two socks abusively on a number of pages. ColaDude was revealed by EGG BABYS MOM to be a sock of Dans1120 (dans) in the debate over the now-deleted Mexicanstandoff.jpg on Talk:Mexican standoff. Dans employed a second a abusive sock called Cooldood246 to try to establish consensus in his favor. All three accounts have been used for questionable edits to a wide variety of pages and Dans himself was involved in the Daniel Geduld deletion debate (after repeatedly vandalizing the original article) which eventually resulted in the block of Rubber cat and the resulting goon rush over the past several days. Cumulus Clouds 15:21, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

This might be better handled at WP:SSP.  _{Folic_Acid | talk}  15:24, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

• Well it concerns Dans1120's abusive editing in addition to his socks. I wanted to have the former addressed before the latter. Cumulus Clouds 15:33, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Any links which don't require you to pay money to see? JuJube 15:34, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Ok - if it regards abusive edits, could you provide some diffs that illustrate that?  _{Folic_Acid | talk}  15:37, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

• They are mostly contained within the edit history of Daniel Geduld, which I don't have access to. He posted about it to the SA forums, and actually this is a free copy of the link where he discusses his vandalism to Daniel Geduld: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=2676125&perpage=40&pagenumber=1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cumulus Clouds (talk • contribs) 15:39, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

This is a user with a two-handed edit history. Hand one: minor copyediting and wikilinking, sometimes reverting other vandalism. Hand two: Something Awful vandalism, often intentionally subtle. The Daniel Geduld edits were definitely vandalous. Dans is definitely responsible for the "I choose logic" vandalism described in the SA thread in Cumulus' last link. Note also he quip of "I need to make this look legit." in the SA thread. Here is the Pac-man is an atheist vandalsim. See the history of Sexual roleplaying, back in May '07 for more of this. Can anyone see any reason not to indefinitely block the main account? The only one that I can think of is that this user appears to be on a dynamic IP, and we'll probably have to do the sock drawer thing until he goes senile or gets a life. GRBerry 21:19, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I would support blocking. It's trolling by a group of users trying to game the system. They make legit edits (some are clearly parody) and problematic edits to force discussions like this one. They're also fond of subtle vandalism of things like dates, statistics, or making malicious edits to unsourced statements/sections ("in popular culture", for example).-Wafulz 04:43, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I've blocked Dans1120 indefinitely. Subtle and intentional vandalism we can live without. I suggest taking the socks to WP:SSP or WP:RFCU; for people with more experience in sock drawer clearing than I have to review. That there are puppets is obvious, which ones and whether they will be meat or sock is not. GRBerry 05:13, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Haizum - request for further admin action

Haizum (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) has a long history of being blocked for incivility and personal harassment of Wikipedians, and is very thorough POV pusher. If you review his full Block Log, you will see a variety of blocks for personal attacks on other users. The latest block was today.

History of blocks

Starting in 2006 he began to rack up blocks (an indefinite block in December 2005 was overturned):

• 03:44, 18 February 2006 Madchester (Talk | contribs) blocked "Haizum (Talk | contribs)" with an expiry time of 48 hours ‎ (personal attacks, talk page vandalism)

• Madchester reduced this block and protected his talk page instead, to stop his attacks and disruption. The next day, however, he reblocked Haizum again for 31 hours for still more personal attacks:

• 04:05, 19 February 2006 Madchester (Talk | contribs) blocked "Haizum (Talk | contribs)" with an expiry time of 31 hours ‎ (personal attacks on webpage; accusatory comments)

This user has been on ANI afterwards many times for abuses and violations.

• June 2006: Harassing admins User:Sceptre and User:Will_Beback with email. Result was a block, which was upgraded several times, and finally removed five days later by Shell Kinney.

1. 21:52, 2 June 2006 Sceptre (Talk | contribs) blocked "Haizum (Talk | contribs)" with an expiry time of 48 hours ‎ (Massive incivility and edit warring on Laura Ingraham)
2. 22:16, 2 June 2006 Sceptre (Talk | contribs) unblocked Haizum (Talk | contribs) ‎ (lengthening block)
3. 22:17, 2 June 2006 Sceptre (Talk | contribs) blocked "Haizum (Talk | contribs)" with an expiry time of 3 days ‎ (asked for another day, I'm happy to oblige)
4. 02:26, 3 June 2006 Tawker (Talk | contribs) unblocked Haizum (Talk | contribs) ‎ (npov tag is not rationale to block)
5. 10:58, 3 June 2006 Sceptre (Talk | contribs) unblocked Haizum (Talk | contribs) ‎ (extending block, again)
6. 10:59, 3 June 2006 Sceptre (Talk | contribs) blocked "Haizum (Talk | contribs)" with an expiry time of 1 week ‎ (abusive emails)
7. 21:49, 4 June 2006 Sceptre (Talk | contribs) unblocked Haizum (Talk | contribs) ‎ (lengthening block)
8. 21:50, 4 June 2006 Sceptre (Talk | contribs) blocked "Haizum (Talk | contribs)" with an expiry time of indefinite ‎ (particularly venomous email I recieved)
9. 00:12, 5 June 2006 Sceptre (Talk | contribs) blocked "Haizum (Talk | contribs)" with an expiry time of 8 days ‎ (shorter block)
10. 12:13, 6 June 2006 Shell Kinney (Talk | contribs) unblocked Haizum (Talk | contribs) ‎ (block excessive for content dispute, already discussed on ANI)

Another block followed two weeks later from more attacks and incivility, but was again overturned:

1. 05:53, 25 June 2006 Circeus (Talk | contribs) blocked "Haizum (Talk | contribs)" with an expiry time of 48 hours ‎ (user repeateadly assumed bad faith and was uncivil on several talk pages)
2. 06:31, 25 June 2006 Lord Voldemort (Talk | contribs) unblocked Haizum (Talk | contribs) ‎ (See his talk page.)

Haizum was again blocked by Nandesuka this time for five days, for this attack.

• 12:44, 19 March 2007 Nandesuka (Talk | contribs) blocked "Haizum (Talk | contribs)" (anon. only, account creation blocked) with an expiry time of 5 days ‎ (repeat offender, http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Talk:Depleted_uranium&diff=116206235&oldid=115154874)

Again today, he was blocked by LessHeard vanU for insulting Vermont editors among other recent incivilities:

• 13:47, 15 November 2007 LessHeard vanU (Talk | contribs) blocked "Haizum (Talk | contribs)" (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of 48 hours ‎ (Incivility)

Other ANI reports on Haizum, final warning issued

Further information on ANI archives:

• Thread on the June 2006 blocks involving Sceptre, Will Beback, and other admins over Haizum and indefinite blocking, where Sceptre is urged to simply filter out abusive and harassing emails. From reading ANI recently, this seems to be counter to the idea of protecting people from harassing users...
• Later in June 2006, ANI discussing Haizum's further personal attacks; thread was initiated after he apparently made semi-homophobic comments about Bear community.
• December 2006. Haizum starts an ANI thread about a dispute with another editor, ending it with the comment, "I've started a dialog on the respective talk page instead of edit warring, so I'll take my Get Out of Jail Free card and think about who's edits remind me most of bovine excrement. --Haizum μολὼν λαβέ 02:09, 24 December 2006 (UTC)"

More recently, in addition to the above blocks, he was being disruptive on Talk:Blackwater_Worldwide#Shameless, which led to *two* ANI reports from Pleasantville, and then another from myself two days later (which I can't find in the archives, now). The Blackwater Worldwide talk page section also clearly demonstrates the POV he pushes heavily across Misplaced Pages. While its fine for him to fervently defend conservative viewpoints (mine are fairly conservative, though not quite so far right), his manner is very troubling. Read: Talk:Blackwater_Worldwide#RS_.26_NPOV. Summary quote from Haizum:

• "A similar Blackwater USA article could have been written entirely from conservative sources, but it wasn't, and it never will be. The community simply will not allow it. --Haizum μολὼν λαβέ 22:25, 4 October 2007 (UTC)"

That does not engender any kind of good will collaboration. As a result of all the bad behavior on that page, the administrator User:Haemo gave Haizum a final warning:

"I've given this user a final warning about his behavior. His conduct on this page, and the page in question is clearly crossing a line. --Haemo 18:35, 5 October 2007 (UTC)"

Extensive history of personal attacks and nastiness

Haizum also has an ongoing habit of leaving nasty attacks, which apparently have been missed by all these blocking admins. I only went back to February of 2007, and only on User_Talk pages. There are more but I honestly am tired of staring at all these horrible statements. I imagine given that the blocks on this user go back to 2005, and that he has directly harassed administrators by e-mail (note the block log) I don't believe these are unique situations.

• 05:17, 30 October 2007: "In the future, when you act as an apologist for Nazis and a rewriter of history, please try to not be so obvious when doing so. Thanks."
• 09:50, 17 October 2007: "Get back to your indoctrination sessions and stop crapping all over Misplaced Pages."
• 03:48, 4 October 2007: "Get a clue."
• 01:14, 1 October 2007: "As an editor I deal with the reality of Misplaced Pages being infested with powder puffs and intellectual frauds on a daily basis, but I found this attempt to delete an article that meets featured article quality standards to be particularly egregious, especially considering the totalitarian motivations behind said attempt."
• 11:17, 24 August 2007 "Keep up these kind of garbage edits and I'll watch you go down in flames."
• 18:40, 26 July 2007: "Stop crapping on Misplaced Pages. It's bad enough as it is." After another editor removes that comment as too extreme on a new editor, Haizum reverts and re-adds it.
• 19:42, 23 July 2007: Pointlessly goading a homosexual woman: "This individual insulted the Misplaced Pages community by referring to heterosexuals as "breeders." In order to expose the hypocrisy of this, I asked how it felt to be the product of a couple of breeders. To interpret this as "anti-gay" is a cognitive failure. Logic wins.".
• 22:17, 23 July 2007: "In that last little rant, your own English doesn't exactly uphold the highest standards, does it? Heal thyself."
• 03:06, 10 July 2007: "It doesn't matter if you think I did something, the rules still apply. Apparently the University of Florida doesn't teach anyone logic."
• 03:26, 27 June 2007: "Stop leaving your mouse turd edits on Misplaced Pages."
• 10:34, 3 June 2007: "Learn how to edit before you start chicken scratching all over Misplaced Pages."
• 07:10, 3 May 2007: "STOP VANDALIZING ARTICLES YOU JACKASS."
• 07:08, 5 April 2007 "Hiding won't save you." -- further harassment of User:Nricardo.
• 05:03, 27 March 2007: "Stop making garbage edits to Misplaced Pages."
• 01:54, 21 March 2007: One of his unblock requests... "I'd simply like my block lifted. I don't have time for tyrannical admins with agendas that get in the way of proper use of privileges."
• 00:42, 21 March 2007: "I suggest you do something about it before you start pissing on the sovereignty of my talk page, again."
• 20:28, 10 March 2007: "Get a life."
• 10 March 2007: Edit summary -- "rm fake survey that probably funds fascism".
• 01:47, 25 February 2007: "Thanks for deleting my comment. You have shown that as a self-described neoliberal, you are incompatible with opinions contrary to your own. You've inspired me; I'll be sure to monitor the mousetrap image discussion to be certain that my freedom of expression is not infringed upon by neoliberal tyranny. Feel free to retract your own illogical viewpoint, but keep your hands of my rationale."
• 02:12, 26 February 2007: "Someone go ahead and ban this douche indefinitely."

Summary

I'm posting here as numerous users and admins have had ongoing conflicts with this person. I don't think Misplaced Pages benefits from his participation. At the least, I think we should consider a personal attack/civility parole, with increasingly lengthy blocks. While I think he can be of some benefit, maybe, I don't know if an indef block isn't the best solution here. His basic role has been to argue aggressively in favor of a very conservative political POV; to insult people; and he rarely if ever actually edits articles. See here. Only 278 encyclopedia contributions. He seems to be just around to stir some political pot and to cause drama. This user made working on that Blackwater Worldwide article and it's related articles painful at best, for me, but he had moved onto other pastures, and had moved his attacks onto everyone else he came across. • Lawrence Cohen 18:29, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Emails

Emails #1, #2 were blatant Wikilawyering. The second asked for "another 24 hours", which I was happy to oblige. Email #3 was Wikilawyering with a dash of incivility. Email #4 used the two most Godwinific terms ever, "admin abuse" and "fascism".

The fourth was what I blocked him over. It all was over Laura Ingraham (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), which I rv'ed three days back to pre-edit war, which severly pissed him off. He's continuing incivilities fourteen months on, so let's get rid of him.

Footnote: I'm (regretfully) not an administrator any more. I'd block him myself if I was. Will 18:48, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

• I have upped the block to indefinite. If anyone feels they can reform this guy they are welcome to try, but it's clear to me he's not interested in fixing the problem. Guy (Help!) 19:30, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Response

I have had only one extended interaction with Haizum, so I cannot and will not speak to the vast majority of what has been posted above. What I can say, however, is that the link above marked "Pointlessly goading a homosexual woman" is rather misleading by omission of context. The "homosexual woman" being referred to is User:Cr8tiv, an enthusiastic POV-pusher. Cr8tiv made a long series of uncivil edits to Haizum's talk page, apparently prompted by this innocuous edit. Haizum's reply was less than ideal, and I can't say that I care for his style, but he was the one being attacked here, not Cr8tiv.

Again, if Haizum has a long history of tendentious editing and POV-pushing, then that's beyond the scope of my interaction with him and I cannot comment from experience, but I didn't want to let a misleading statement stand unopposed. A Train 19:31, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Unblock request

User:Haizum has requested an unblock at User_talk:Haizum#Block extended, citing the block as retroactive. • Lawrence Cohen 20:11, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Oooh, I wish I could nail the final hole in the coffin. His unblock reason just shows the kind of incivility. Will 20:14, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

With a block log that long, how did he keep avoiding the indef? Kwsn-pub 20:17, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm guessing no one looked too closely at what he was doing. :( • Lawrence Cohen 20:20, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

He updated the language to say, "Retroactive and capricious indef block based on vendetta ANI." It was anything but a vendetta. I was taking his abuse towards me in stride personally, because I assumed it was limited to the two articles we interacted on. His (wildly and overly) critical comments forced me to dig up bulletproof sourcing and language on the Blackwater Worldwide articles, which I'm glad for now. But the rest of that? Calling people douches? Sorry, Haizum. • Lawrence Cohen 20:20, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm astounded he's lasted this long. Tendentious editing is one thing, persistent aggression, rudeness and email harassment is another. Guy (Help!) 20:25, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Don't know why I reduced the block in the fist place... Will 20:27, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I know we are not supposed to repost from banned users, but in good faith (from me and I hope from him) I'm posting here what Haizum just put on his User talk page. Please delete this entry if this inappropriate. I'm not going to post to him again (beyond my last apology for this notification, and a confirmation that I posted this). Sorry for any extra noise.

"A block should be based on prior administrative action, not comments which only received attention today -- because you personally took the time to dig them up. Therefore, we have a. retroactive blocking and b. a vendetta. Please convey this to the ANI even if you do not agree. --Haizum μολὼν λαβέ 20:30, 15 November 2007 (UTC)"

He wanted that reviewed. I asked him to use the unblock template again for anything else. • Lawrence Cohen 20:35, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Currently, as I understand it, he is indef blocked not banned, so reposting is fine. If he was community or ArbCom banned it might be different, but you are in the clear. nb. My original block was pursuant to an AIV report - I censured the other party to a longer block because the language was more violent, but generally acted to stop an escalating cycle of personal attacks. I accept whatever actions other editors and admins with more experience of this individual decide upon. LessHeard vanU 20:59, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Sockpuppetry ultimatum

From here"

"I'm fully capable of coming to terms with my actions. However, I will not volunteer this when it is clear that there is a double standard in play, specifically when my edits are trolled for alleged infractions that were never subject to administrative action. I feel that is a fair stance to take. Now, we can do this honestly; I will accept a long but limited block for my actions with the mutual understanding that there was past administrative malice and a questionable ANI, or, I will change my IP address and create a new account with a blank slate. Yes, I'm sure at this very moment you are recoiling at my ultimatum, but note that my preferred concession keeps me publicly accountable for my block log. I ask you, which is preferable?"

So for allegedly attacking everyone in sight, if admins don't agree that he was not at fault, he will come back with a new IP immediately and a new account. Perhaps this should be elevated to a full ban. :( • Lawrence Cohen 21:02, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm... Blackmail? What an excellent reason for an unblock. NOT! LessHeard vanU 21:10, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. This bloke is not good for wikipedia and should be banned. I intend to protect his talk page now Theresa Knott | The otter sank 21:05, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Endorsed. Unfortunately the user doesn't seem to see the underlying problems with his behavior and hasn't shown any interest in changing his ways. henrik•talk 21:12, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Endorse a full ban. I haven't dealt with this editor since last year but judging by his history since then he is not making positive contributions to the project and is disruptive. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:23, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Endorse. My original indef should've stuck. Will 21:30, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

If his response to this situation is to threaten that he'll change his account, rather than make some serious effort at finding someone to work with him to reform his abusive behavior, it's clear he's not going to reform. I think we can consider him community banned at this point. --Haemo 23:58, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Support community ban. Georgewilliamherbert 03:27, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

My my, he has a way with words

Apologies for my snarkyness throughout the thread, but I love how it's all my fault he got banned. Yes, surely I am a part of a secret non-existent cabal who can make personal attacks and do whatever the fuck they like without fear of punishment, when the truth is that I tend to operate solo unless I need admin assistance. I'll maybe reconsider this post if political ideologies are no longer used as epithets, which is unlikely to be soon. Will 23:38, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

User:Cheeseatme

This is an odd page, which I found while using the "search" function: 350 Kb of ... line noise. That's the best description for it. Only contribution this user ever made, deleted or otherwise. I only looked at it because the username reminded me of a banned user. If the page's harmless, I'm happy to ignore it; if someone tried to upload a worm or other maleware, then this page needs to be deleted. (I didn't see any ill effects after viewing this, but my system is non-standard.) -- llywrch 19:40, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I removed the nonsense, but I doubt an administrator would have deleted this page - just incase the user ever did return to contribute constructively. Qst 20:28, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

The first three bytes of the zeroed user page (BM6) are part of the header for an image format used in portable devices. It's possible the user was trying to copy the image here, but it is obviously not capable of rendition in a browser not running on Symbian (for example). No harm done. --Rodhullandemu (please reply here - contribs) 23:23, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Reblocked User:Whig

Whig (talk · contribs)

To summarise: Community banned homeopathic POV-pusher who was unblocked as part of an attempted mediation, then disappeared for a month. Just returned, and began the same idiocy all over again. Re-banned. Adam Cuerden 20:30, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Agree with reban, the user obviously has no intentions of contributing constructively here. Qst 20:32, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Good block. Multiple RFCs have failed to solve the problem. This one's here only to advance his POV, at which point he and the encyclopaedia have to part company. Moreschi 21:02, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

This user should have been banned months ago. Wikidudeman 17:17, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

My personal feeling is that this is a good block - but then I thought this particular tendentious user had exhausted all of his chances last time around. I don't see a lot of value being added to the encyclopedia here. That said, Whig was unblocked on probation under the mentorship of User:Mercury last time around, so I'd be interested to hear Mercury's thoughts on the matter. MastCell 18:11, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

You should specify what you mean by 'began the same idiocy all over again.' what idiocy? please give the diffs. thank you Peter morrell 17:17, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I want to see what behavior Adam Cuerden was referring to in the form of diffs. Whig has made the same request. I think to be fair, this request should be satisfied. -- Levine2112 00:05, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

I've blocked User:Privatemusings

Drama ended with amicable resolutions on both sides. No need to further engage. —Kurykh 05:53, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

The page at User:Privatemusings is (now) pretty self-explanatory. You can match the contributions of those accounts to the claims made by "Privatemusings" yourself. Misplaced Pages is not an MMORPG - David Gerard 20:35, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

This is not going to be pretty. Some claims made by others about PM appear to be false (editing articles with both PM account and main account). This is a cursory review but I am still looking. No comment on the block though. spryde | talk 20:42, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Good block. That set of accounts created too much noise and not enough signal. - Jehochman 20:46, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the block. Considering that this "gossip page" was apparently one of his first edits, it's hard to believe that this user came to the project with good intentions. The extensive use of socks, even after promising to stop using them, is ample evidence of abuse. This is an encyclopedia project, not a puppet theater. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:44, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I fully support this block. This user has created many accounts, with intent to disrupt this site from the beginning. Crum375 20:45, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

At last. Guy (Help!) 21:22, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Fully support this block given this users continued disruption and general oar-sticking-in-where-it's-not-wanted-fuckery they've engaged in. Nick 21:24, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, whatever. Prepare for a long argument though--Phoenix-wiki (talk · contribs) 21:30, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Anyone unblocking after seeing that user page has, um, bulletproof assumption of good faith - David Gerard 21:33, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Although the cat's out of the bag, is anybody opposed to a courtesy deletion because of his concerns about his real-world identity? I propose replacing Privatemusings' user and talk page with a message only admins could view. east.718 at 21:45, 11/15/2007

I said yeah, I endorse the block, just warning that there might be an argument, like there was last time--Phoenix-wiki (talk · contribs) —Preceding comment was added at 21:45, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Support for the same reason I declined to unblock him previously. --jpgordon 22:08, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

WP:TROLL (which, as has been pointed out before, is an essay and not a policy or guideline) has nothing about blocking being an appropriate response, so my first impression is that the block is improperly applied. If it is a case of abusive sockpuppetry - not that anyone has mentioned it - I would ask if a checkuser has been requested and someone to point out the abusive edits; diffs would be appreciated.

To counter some specific points from the chorus of approval; Jehochman, signal to noise is an article, not even an essay - are you able to articulate any reasons why this block is appropriate using valid criteria? Will Beback admits disregard of WP:AGF while unsure what a supposed alternative account's first edit might be - and the criteria is "abusive sockpuppetry", not "sockpuppetry is abusive". Crum375 believes he can read minds, or at least guage intent, while also being unable to recognise that creating alternative accounts (if that is what happened) is not prohibited. Nick is at least honest in how they feel about other peoples contributions they they might not agree with - not that there is anything in policy that supports him but, hey, why not ignore WP:CIVIL as well?

All in all this appears to be an extremely badly executed block, not backed by any resemblance of policy or guideline, and resoundingly (if just as incoherently) applauded by The Usual Suspects without any provision of supporting evidence. LessHeard vanU 22:09, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Agree. Considering he has restricted himself to a single account (evidence the the contrary???) then a block for sockpuppetry is complete invalid. Viridae 22:37, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

He said, as Privatemusings, on 05:52, November 2, 2007 that he'd stick to one account, then 22:04, November 4, 2007 he posted using the Purples account. I don't think his commitments to stick to one account have credibility. He even created a new account on November 1, and another on October 8, that he'd hadn't used yet. Far from creating a single sock to deal with a contentious uissue, he seems to use socks regularly. This account appears created solely to create a negative biography on a barely-notable living person, again back on October 8. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:00, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Agree. To say Misplaced Pages suppresses dissent may sound dramatic, but appropriately summarizes this block. To say "he's only here for the drama" doesn't set him apart from the people trying to ban him. Those busy writing the encyclopedia probably aren't even aware of this dispute.66.195.186.69 23:10, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

• I too think the block invalid. I have another question: why was it considered necessary to plaster, among others, the name of the original account, the one that has a name the most like a real life name, across the page? I don't expect a reply from David Gerard, since he has for a very long time not deemed it proper to reply to anything that I say to him. But perhaps somebody not considered a pariah would like to repeat the question, thereby hopefully rendering it visible. A reply from the user who removed all the sock templates except that possibly revelatory one would be good too. And may I have a good reason why PM's e-mail has been disabled? If not, I will restore it.
• While awaiting further discussion here, I have honored PM's reasonable request to have the Privatemusings userpages deleted, to protect the privacy that he is so concerned about. Bishonen | talk 23:23, 15 November 2007 (UTC).

Because those are the names of the accounts he was sockpuppeting to cause drama with. If you want to make trouble on Misplaced Pages, using your real name with it is your own problem. It's like IP data not being protected by the privacy policy if you were using an IP as a separate "persona" - David Gerard 01:57, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I think that's reasonable, especially if the user does not return under a new sock to circumvent a block. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:48, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Now that he's returned to using the "Petesmiles" account I don't see any further rationale for deleting the Privatemusing page. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 02:06, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

No reply about the e-mail block, as expected. I have therefore removed it. Bishonen | talk 00:10, 16 November 2007 (UTC).

I support this block too. Bishonen, you were the person who persuaded me to assume good faith of Purples when I felt he was causing problems before, and I did because I respect your judgment. But for him to create yet another sockpuppet to cause more problems over the same issue really isn't acceptable. Think about the inconsistency of his position. He insists that his first user name be protected in case it IDs him (do we even know that it might?) He further insists that his wiki-accounts that don't ID him not be named, because he doesn't want to be criticized and therefore reserves the right to create multiple accounts to split up his contribs. But at the same time, he uses those accounts to add external links to articles (or to argue for their addition) that out and in some cases defame Wikipedians. That's not really a position anyone can defend. SlimVirgin 01:27, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

That's a gross oversimplification. When you introduce real-world complexity to the problem, you'l discover there's considerable internal consistency in his actions, however irritating. Relata refero 05:49, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

• I oppose this block as politically motivated. *Dan T.* 00:16, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Dan, I remember when you pledged not to make arguments based on what you think people's motivations are. -GTBacchus 03:56, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

*Dan T.*, I believe that you are jumping to conclusions. David Gerard is a strong believer in freedom of speech. I trust his opinion on this block. WAS 4.250 01:08, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Was it the commies, fascists, republicans, democrats, greens, scientologists, labor or Larouchites?--MONGO 00:22, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

MONGO, that was not helpful. WAS 4.250 01:08, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

This block is similar to Jimbo's block of Miltopia. None of PM's accounts have acted in an overtly bannable way, but he is a drama hog, a low-level persistent pest, a time-sink for many admins, and seems to exist mainly to stir up trouble of various kinds. If we are going to welcome this sort of individual with open arms as long as he doesn't do anything grossly obnoxious or foul, then expect the environment here to continue to degrade. I can see a strong argument for showing this sort of person the door, politely but firmly. Thatcher131 00:21, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Well said. Crum375 00:31, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

If by "well", you mean, "full of needless ad hominem attacks," then yeah. -GTBacchus 03:56, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

The idea that people can be banned for the subjective concept of "low level trolling" (meaning anything that others find annoying) is a dangerous meme. *Dan T.* 01:02, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

• Disagree (with the block) on principle that WP should be open to reasonably dissident and iconoclastic voices. (Agree with Less Heard.)—AL 00:36, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is open to such voices to the extent they improve the encyclopedia. However, Misplaced Pages is not a free-speech zone. It's certainly not a place where it's acceptable to create sockpuppets to increase the volume of your voice. Chaz 01:54, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

The connection between this account, and Privatemusings has been made public, and I consider that to be a betrayal of trust. I am unclear whether it is permissible or appropriate for me to comment on some of the gross distortion, and dishonest posturing above. I am furious and confused, and upset. Ideally I would like Privatemusings to be unblocked, and this account to be deleted. Can I please contribute further here? Thank you, Petesmiles 01:48, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

It can't be deleted, but given the circumstances, yes, you can trade the blocking of Private Musings for the blocking of Petesmioles. WilyD 01:52, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

That sounds like a good way forward to me. I'd like the userpage and talk page deleted if that's ok (at your discretion). Many thanks indeed, Petesmiles 01:59, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

You don't have a right to act in bad faith - David Gerard 01:57, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I understand that. Petesmiles 01:59, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

If you come to Misplaced Pages to make drama with sockpuppets, choosing to use your real name is your problem. May I note for others that it's dedicated sockpuppeters like this who most often request deletion (and frequently oversighting) of pages about them, to cover their tracks. I would strongly recommend against deletion of information linking the many accounts, particularly deleting it from the obvious place, i.e. the userpages of the sockpuppet acccounts - David Gerard 02:02, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I understand your perspective. Would you consider this solution? - How about you indef block petesmiles, and all other accounts mentioned, and unblock privatemusings, leaving notice on privatemusings' user page which I promise not to remove pending further discussion, or any other process you suggest. I hope that will minimise both my stress, and this stupid disruption. It also gives us a way forward. thanks, Petesmiles 02:08, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I've done so as I see little functional difference in the two situations. east.718 at 02:09, 11/16/2007

Beat me to it by seconds. Viridae 02:11, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Private Musings is unblocked Petesmiles is blocked Note that this causes no net change in the number of accounts active. Cheers, WilyD 02:12, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks to all. Now move along. Privatemusings 02:13, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

This was a very good solution to it all. PM seems to have inadvertently run afoul of the sockpuppet rules-- or at least approached a gray area. Now he's promised to use one and only one account, and if he adhere to that, at the very least we won't have to deal with the abuse of sock allegations in the future. --Alecmconroy 03:49, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Will Privatemusings renew his promise to stick to one account, and if so will he adhere to it this time? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:02, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

There is essentially a community restriction in effect here. Privatemusing has undertaken not to create or use alternate accounts, and that seems to be supported by the consensus. I recommend recording this restriction, as well as any others like it, in a central place. - Jehochman 04:38, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I think you just did that! (seriously - it's on the record here, but I'm more than happy for a sign to go up somewhere if you think that's necessary too...) Privatemusings 05:23, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I am glad you agree with the resolution. These archives are voluminous and hard to search. Probably this should be discussed elsewhere, but it would be a good idea to record community restrictions in one place with links to the relevant discussion, an index. - Jehochman 05:26, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

New move proposal on Talk:Burma

Last month I proposed changing the name of the article Myanmar to Burma. After a very extensive and exhausting debate where even Jimbo participated, the proposal was closed as "move". A few days ago, I discovered that a new poll/discussion intended to move the article back to Myanmar had started. The proposal wasn't even listed at WP:RM so I speedy closed it for violation of procedure and for the temporal proximity with the last proposal which consumed so much of many editors' time. However, User:SqueakBox decided to undo my closure today and reopened the discussion, which I reverted, and informed SqueakBox that he should bring my closure to WP:ANI if he disagreed with my reasoning for it. SqueakBox wrote this reply and started yet a new move proposal at the bottom of Talk:Burma. The proposal was listed at WP:RM but I still don't think it's productive to restart such a painstaking discussion all over again. I would like to hear the opinion of fellow users (as I don't wish to be accused of acting on conflict of interest) on whether or not would it be valid to speedy close this new move proposal so to allow more time before a new discussion may take place. Thank you. Húsönd 20:38, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

• Since the previous move discussion had been scrutinized so carefully by so many editors, a new discussion is both unneccessary and dilatory. In my opinion, Squeakbox was wrong to reopen it. Cumulus Clouds 22:24, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Though another view of that would be that so much discussion and scrutiny could be a sign that there wasn't really a solid consensus for the original move to begin with? Agne/ 22:34, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

The closed discussion was a genuinely disputed event and Husond said that the problem was that it hadn't been posted at Requested Moves, which I then proceeded to do. This is a genuine controversy that needs sorting, the redirect was completely messed about here which kind of closed the debate in a completely non-wikipedia way, and I am opening it again. As the proposer Husond clearly had and has no right to close. Thanks, SqueakBox 01:08, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Abuse by 71.62.25.150

I encountered certain users of this IP address gleefully vandalizing articles. I spoke to them in RL about it. They responded with a sort of disjointed tirade about truthiness and how people have the right to edit the truth on Misplaced Pages. I have left a final warning on their user page, on top of a small pile of other warnings. Considering that none of the edits made by this IP address have ever been in any way valuable, and in light of a general disregard for rules and regulations and a vow to continue vandalism expressed by the involved parties, I recommend the IP address 71.62.25.150 be blocked from editing. Fifth Rider 20:43, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Well they have only actually made 4 edits in total. If they come back I'm willing to block, but at the moment I don't see the need. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 20:54, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Deeceevoice (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Deeceevoice (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is currently blocked for one year under the terms of Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Deeceevoice. This block may or may not mature into a ban. The user may appeal the block/ban by the normal procedures. As such, there seems no need to continue this discussion. Physchim62 (talk) 17:16, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

See also Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Deeceevoice, please check out for background and context.

Today I banned this user from Afrocentrism and its talk page for tendentious talkpage time-wasting, incivility, edit-warring, and POV-pushing (see , , , , , , (you need to read the article and see how bad it is to get that one)). Please also check some of her contributions to other articles to get the full flavour of her/his POV-pushing. From the user talk we get such gems as this:

Directed at User:Wikidudeman, I believe. In response to my banning this user from Afrocentrism, I get told my actions are "unresponsive, high-handed, arrogant and totally off the wall" on my user talk. Reviews? Opinions on further action? Moreschi 21:44, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I have no opinion on Deecee's edits on Afrocentism per se, but I do believe she is guilty of multiple, repeated, and unapologetic violations of civility. Long as her block log is, I'm surprised it isn't longer given that she’s basically thumbed her nose at the arbcom ruling. She's been around since 2004--I'm not sure there's a way to reach her, though as I've seen people I respect say she's a good contributor, it'd be nice if there were an effective way to get her attention. IronDuke 22:02, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

The block log and history here seem amazingly similar to the Haizum (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) situation in the section directly a few sections above here, at Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Haizum_-_request_for_further_admin_action. Similar blocks, similar long-term incivility, just a different POV is being similarly furiously promoted, for better or worse. Haizum was just blocked indefinitely (and then appears upgraded to an indefinite ban, afterwards). EDIT: Actually, Deeceevoice's block log looks worse than User:Haizum's. • Lawrence Cohen 22:35, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Given that block log, I am inclined to indef and be done with it. She has had every chance in the world to reform and hasnt taken it. Good writer or not, we don't need people with her failings here. Viridae 22:41, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

There are many editors and admins who will vigorously defend DCV's rights to slander other editors, create tension, soapbox, ignore the arbcom ruling, poison every article she works on with POV and accuse anyone who calls her on it of racism. I think it's about preventing systemic bias. Somehow. I don't see the logic myself. Neil ☎ 23:31, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Given the amount of personal attack blocks logged on the arbitration page, and the extent of the block log for the same. Is there two other admins who will support a year long block per remedy seven of the arbitration case: "She may be banned from Misplaced Pages for up to one year by any three administrators for good cause.". I consider a failure to abide by the personal attacks policy repeatedly sufficient cause and the recent edits for which she has now been banned from that article. Viridae 23:37, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Ban. We're finally winning the encyclopedia back from the trolls, so we shouldn't stop with this one. While it maybe a personal attack, you have to call a spade a spade, and with multiple blocks, ANI threads and an RfAr, it's not getting through. Will 23:42, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

I would probably support a ban of some period. She's not here to improve the encyclopedia, she's here to fight some kind of race war. We don't need this nonsense here. Friday (talk) 23:45, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Viridae, although I don't oppose a block like the one you gave her, did you get the support of two other admins? Corvus cornix 23:49, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Both Neil and Friday are admins and are supporting the block. I have enacted it. Viridae 23:56, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Viridae, can you log the block on the Arbitration case, pretty please? And have it endorsed by two admins who agree to the one year ban as required. (Neil and Friday's endorsement of a ban of "some period" is not necessarily support for a one year ban as required at Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Deeceevoice#Deeceevoice_placed_on_probation.) I personally would support something between a week and a month at this time, but I won't oppose a year if two other admins specificially agree. Thatcher131 00:07, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Logged. I may have been a bit hasty in enacting that block, but I think it will stick given that everyone appears to be sick of her behaviour - wouldnt have done it otherwise. Viridae 00:14, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I think a month would have been better. This would show her what will happen if she continues to use Misplaced Pages as a battleground, but will give her one last chance to reform all the same. If she continues after my proposed shortening to one month, then I would have no objection to re-extending it to a year. While I see this year block as better than nothing, it nevertheless does not strike me as the ideal sanction at this time. Picaroon (t) 02:26, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I simply feel that she has had ample chance. The block log is 28 items long, almost a third of which are since the arbcom case... Viridae 03:17, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

OK, look at this another way: her last block, according to her arbitration case, is over a year old; to me that says she's generally reformed of whatever problems she was deemed to have back then (I was unaware of this editor back then, so I can't say). I'd say that's worth investing a little good faith in it.--Ramdrake 03:28, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Please note that Moreschi is the same user who called my requests for civility from Dbachmann "process wankery" (diff) I just wanted to add this so it is clear that Moreschi is not an "uninvolved admin." I'm not exactly uninvolved myself, but I want to say that to me this seems unfair. Where is the evidence? And if civility is an issue why isn't anyone saying anything about Dbachmann's lack of civility and unwillingness to cooperate with the proposed 1 revert rule to allow us to unblock the article and avoid edit wars? This is unfair. The block should be lifted. futurebird 00:44, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

• Instead of attacking Moreschi (who isn't even the blocking admin in this case), perhaps it would be more constructive to explain why a block of an obviously tendentious and disruptive user is even a controversial issue? ELIMINATORJR 00:58, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Have you actually SEEN the block log? Its as long as my arm. I am incredibly surprised she has lasted this long. Viridae 01:00, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

28 separate items in the block log, in fact. For all I know, that might be some sort of a record. John Carter 01:03, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

No, that's SPUI (talk · contribs) by a mile. Hell of an editor all the same. Mackensen (talk) 01:12, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

• How EliminatorJR conceived that comment as an attack on Moreschi, I don't know. It is perfectly acceptable to comment on a user's involvedness. Picaroon (t) 02:26, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

• I want to comment on your own involvedness then. You kind of have this pattern of defending and giving support to abusive users if they are pushing some pro-black or Afrocentrist biased opinion on Misplaced Pages. I'm also pretty sure that that other administrator EL C what's his name will soon get all Che and "heroic" on this valid block. Make yourselves less predictable, or this place will turn into a complete joke to the outside world. 82.208.193.150 03:16, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

First of all, if you keep blocking people who have a lot of blocks then it's not a surprise that they have a lot of blocks. Second, I'm sorry if it comes across as if I'm attacking anyone. That's not my intention here. It is just that I saw the events that happened on the page Afrocentrism in a different way. Dbachmann, was the driving force behind the "edit war" and lack of civility on the talk page that got that paged blocked. Wikidudeman came up with an idea for a "truce" to get it unblocked. Deeceevoice and Dbachmann did not want to do it. They both refused. I don't understand Dbachmann's reasons, he seems to feel that he should not have to enter in to such agreements because it makes it hard for him to "fight trolls" (?) I don't know... (see his talk page to read it in his own words...)

Deeceevoice refused, possibly because she does not trust Wikidudeman, after all, he's the one who tried to get her user page deleted a few weeks ago. They seem to have had some issues in the past. Deeceevoice has not been the only aggressor in this.

So, if this quote, which isn't a personal attack as much as it shows that Deeceevoice is not assuming good faith (and if someone tried to get my user page deleted I don't know if I'd assume good faith...) is all that you have as the reason for this block then I think a block is way to harsh and unfair. futurebird 01:29, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Oppose as Deeceevoice is one of our best editors. Thanks, SqueakBox 02:29, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I took a closer look at the diffs listed above and I don't understand how they support the charge?

• This link here, which is given as evidence as to why deeceevioce should be blocked, seems to just be her responding to my question about a citation tag she added to one of my sentences in the article. I found her response helpful. (I don't agree with all of it, and will respond after looking at some sources) But, it's not POV "editing."
• this isn't a "POV edit" either it's an explanation for a lack of trust. I hope that the context I provided makes this clear.
• this is not a POV edit. If you read it in context it's something I agreed with. It's called "systemic bias" there's a whole project devoted to fighting it.
• This is not a "POV edit" either.

I agree that her tone is at times harsh, a warning will do for that, But it's not like she is an admin and saying these kinds of things. None of this makes any sense to me. futurebird 02:42, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

One question that I'd like to ask, is how much more scrutiny would have gone in that call to admin action if Deeceevoice's record had been spotless? I may be wrong, but I feel she's been summarily declared guilty of all charges in good part because of her past record, and I don't think this should happen, as it is the practical application of the logical fallacy of Begging the question, namely she must be guilty; just look at the number of previous blocks she has. Yes, her exchanges show that she had problems assuming good faith in the situation reported, but it should be clear by just looking at histories from Talk:Afrocentrism, User talk:Dbachmann and User talk:Deeceevoice that she wasn't the only one, at the very least. Look, one of the exchanges that are linked in the list of offenses she purportedly committed was directed at me, and I took no offense, especially in this extremely tense situation (and again, it should be obvious from looking at the Afrocentrism talk page that another editor actually started the tenseness. So, in summation, I must agree with Futurebird here that the sanction was totally out of proportion with the purported offense.--Ramdrake 03:15, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I want to question the one-year ban also on the basis that it is customary at Misplaced Pages to escalate the length of blocks when offenses are repeated often, and when users stop offending for a long time, the blocks usually de-escalate. Based on this, I'd like to point out again that Deeceevoice's last block was in October 2006, was for 24 hours only, and that she's made litterally thousands of constructive edits since then. So, a one-year ban for repeating an offense one year after the offense garnered the offender a mere 24 hours is totally out of justifiable proportions. I say, if people feel she needs to be blocked, anything from one day to one week would be more appropriate, or possibly the time served so far on this block may even suffice.--Ramdrake 13:11, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I seriously question a one-year block. For the record i seldome have agreed with DCvoice's comments or edits though it has been a long time since I have worked on the same articles. I know DCV can be conentious and have no doubt that s/he can use some cooling down right now - a few days, maybe a week at most. But I think that systematic bias at Misplaced Pages is a serious problem and DCV's POV is no more extreme and no less valuable that that of many active editors. Perhaps DCV can benefit from some mentoring. perhaps DCV and Dbachman need mediation. My point is, we MUST have better mechanisms for these kinds of problems than one year bans. I believe if anyone wants to ban DCV for more than a week that they file an ArbCom complaint and ensure that due process is provided. Slrubenstein | Talk 14:34, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Couple points.. first, yes, a year is probably excessive. Why not start with a month? Also, I agree that the case of POV editing has not been made well on this page. I assumed it was true because it's historically been a problem with this editor, and I assumed that the admin who banned her from Afrocentrism exercised due diligence in determining that it was warranted. If she's not still making unconstructive biased edits and being generally impossible to work with, that's another story. Mentoring is not an option in my view- if she cared about feedback from other editors, we wouldn't be having this problem. She's a racist with a chip on her shoulder, and if someone disagrees with her, she assumes they're part of the White Conspiracy Against The Truth. Does this sound like a mentorable editor? No, the solution is to keep her in a box where she can't hurt anything. Friday (talk) 16:38, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

In this case, I'll vouch that her edits were pretty much in line with majority consensus on the article page, and this situation got escalated through the one dissenting user (Dbachmann); this should help explain some of the angry reactions to this user's block. I can provide diffs to demonstrate if needed.---- Ramdrake (talk) 16:46, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

The incivility is over the line, and this is a long-term problem, so I think a block of some length is necessary to make clear that this won't be tolerated, but I'm also hesitant to support such a long-term block. Why not a week or month, with a longer term block if more incivility follows? -- Everyking (talk) 16:52, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't think there is evidence to justify a block of any-kind. I think a warning is all that is required in this case. Also, Friday, you tone is rather condececeding, and I don't think it's very professional to talk about keeping any user "in a box where she can't hurt anything." I think your tone is too harsh, in the same way that deeceevoice's tone is often too harsh. -- futurebird (talk) 16:58, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

It's sometimes necessary to attempt damage control here at Misplaced Pages. Maybe it's not nice, but it's what the encyclopedia needs. Friday (talk) 17:02, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

How many warnings does Deeceevoice need? How many has she had? Don't you think those multitudes of previous blocks would count as warnings? -- Corvus cornix (talk) 17:03, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Can you explain to me why she is being blocked this time? -- futurebird (talk) 17:11, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Apologies to Physchim62, but I'm unarchiving this for a little while, because I believe this could do with more time for scrutiny. (Closing the discussion less than 24 hours after it began is not really good for those of us who do not have the ability to live and breathe Misplaced Pages 24/7...) If you look at her block log, you'll observe that I'm not Deeceevoice's greatest fan, and have myself been the target of no small amount of her invective. However, I do feel somewhat that a year's block may be a little disproportionate to her actual recent conduct. Let's accrue some collective opinions about this for a little longer, before we declare this topic closed. There's no need to be hasty. — Matt Crypto 22:44, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Neverpitch (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This account is a suspected SPA that I would like to be investigated.

So far, he has spammed many of the AFDs with Keep votes with an irrelevant argument with some personal attacks. Along with that, he reverted SPA tags without mentioning anything in the edit summary and added a minor blank template to his userpage to apparently diverge suspicion. He has only started the account in two days and already have started participating in a large majority of AFDs. This should be checked out. 164.106.16.21 22:07, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

In the context of deletion discussion, SPA usually refers to someone who is only editing in relation to one article, or a very narrow range or articles. In my opinion, the term doesn't apply to this user, who is participating in AfD discussions, appropriately or not, about more than one article or subject. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 22:38, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Nevertheless, this editor is obviously disrupting Misplaced Pages to make a point, not to mention that numerous of his keep votes violate our civility policies, and therefore I have blocked them indefinitely. Let's look at contribs; re-creates deleted NN page, page gets deleted, spams AfD with random invalid Keep votes. Not a difficult decision. ELIMINATORJR 00:03, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Hey, you should unblock him because "all administrators have a moronic, unthinking hivemind". That's as perfectly reasonable as "Keep, notable"! x_x JuJube 03:38, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism of Misplaced Pages:Sock puppetry

• Stephenfisher23 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Previously warned and blocked. Could someone review the block situation following this edit? Gordonofcartoon 22:36, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

US President candidates

I propose that all biograph-articles about the candidates in the upcoming US Election will be locked and can only be edited by registered users of Misplaced Pages.

I think it's vital for Misplaced Pages that they have this lockdown as a safety procaution to preserve the quality of the articles. Not to mention all the countless hours undoing all this vandalism.

84.202.208.245 22:39, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Articles are not protected pre-emptively. Even going to RPP (where this should be) will result in your request getting declined. -Jéské 02:20, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

This is a bad idea. There will be many significant developments in each of these peoples' lives over the next year, and their articles will need to be updated accordingly. If there's persistent abuse from anons, we'll semi-protect for a suitably short duration as needed. -- Caknuck (talk) 20:40, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism of Images uploaded from website WWII in Color

After reviewing the images from the website WWII in Color, it is clear on the website's FAQ the following about the images:

This does not mean that all images on this site are in the public domain. The majority of the images, unfortunately, have an unknown copyright status and therefore it is recommended that you do not distribute or copy them for any commercial purposes unless they are specifically stated to be in the public domain (some images have a “public domain” notice in their captions).

I have spent some time reverting the copyright tags of these images which have ben uploaded to Misplaced Pages and the Wiki Commons, however, there are a few particular users who are trying to revert these blatant violations of copyright license:
Denniss (Talk Contributions)
Akradecki (Talk Contributions)

The images which I have reverted the copyright tags can be found with the appropriate notices at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Bzuk

http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Signaleer

http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Felix_c

Please help me control these revisions by users who are trying to revert these copyright tags. -TabooTikiGod 23:04, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Bzuk's Response

What gall! You are reverting an admin's work BTW. This is the notice I posted to the Aircraft Project Group due to a widespread attack on images. Help needed on Image challenges== HELP, The following images have all been challenged:

1. Image copyright problem with Image:P-51D Tika IV 361st fg.jpg
2. Unspecified source for Image:P-63 Kingcobras.jpg
3. Image copyright problem with Image:P-59 Airacomet.jpg
4. Unspecified source for Image:B 26.jpg
5. Unspecified source for Image:B-25 refuelling.jpg
6. Unspecified source for Image:P-39N.jpg
7. Unspecified source for Image:B-25s in New Guinea.jpg
8. Unspecified source for Image:B 24 in raf service 23 03 05.jpg
9. Image copyright problem with Image:Capturedfw190 red.jpg
10. Image copyright problem with Image:Fw 190A starting up.jpg
11. Image copyright problem with Image:Fw 190As in flight.jpg
12. Image copyright problem with Image:Me 262 Abandoned.jpg
13. Image copyright problem with Image:Junkers 88.jpg
14. Image copyright problem with Image:Junkers 88.1.jpg
15. Image copyright problem with Image:Junkers 88k2.jpg
16. Unspecified source for Image:Stirling of 7 sqn.jpg
17. Image copyright problem with Image:Spitfire V 316.jpg
18. Image copyright problem with Image:Mosquito Fighter-bomber.jpg
19. Image copyright problem with Image:DH98 Mosquito bomber.jpg
20. Unspecified source for Image:Hawker Typhoon.jpg
21. Unspecified source for Image:Beaufighter252sqn.jpg
22. Unspecified source for Image:Short Shetland.jpg
23. Image copyright problem with Image:Fairey Barracuda.1.jpg
24. Unspecified source for Image:Westland Whirlwind prototype.jpg

All of these images will be removed by TabooTikiGod who has made the sweeping challenges. I believe they can all fall under {{PD-BritishGov}} or {{PD-USGov-Military-Air Force}} or other appropriate PD tags. Can you help! Bzuk 23:10, 15 November 2007 (UTC)." I believe the challenges were well-meaning but looked like a singular editor's interpretation and then he has the gall to call the editors who reacted to a "crusade" as vandals! FWIW Bzuk 23:29, 15 November 2007 (UTC).

In reference to your claim, the webmaster of the website WWII in Color has a FAQ website which states the following:

"Most of the images stored on ww2incolor.com were collected from government sources or submitted by their respective owners. This does not mean that all images on this site are in the public domain. The majority of the images, unfortunately, have an unknown copyright status and therefore it is recommended that you do not distribute or copy them for any commercial purposes unless they are specifically stated to be in the public domain (some images have a “public domain” notice in their captions)."

It further states:

"However, some of the images were photographed by private individuals, media or other government entities (such as the United Kingdom) that do not fall under public domain law."

Therefore, the images which you have uploaded directly from the website, unless specified, are not public domain. These images all have unverified sources which you have uploaded to Misplaced Pages and the Wiki Commons. -TabooTikiGod 23:36, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

<div class="metadata divbox divbox-red" title="Notice: Please see the following talk page
http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Aircraft#Help_needed_on_Image_challenges
for all discussions referencing this matter in order to consolidate the topic on one article page.

" >

http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Aircraft#Help_needed_on_Image_challenges
for all discussions referencing this matter in order to consolidate the topic on one article page.

-TabooTikiGod 23:58, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Without reference to any talk pages, sweeping challenges were made to images that previously were thought to have no contentious issues. I believe a resolution can still be achieved without resorting to the loss of many unique images. FWIW, I did not approve of the blanket assessment that any questioning of these images was vandalism. That is not fair to the editors involved who have made significant contributions to the aviation project. Bzuk 00:03, 16 November 2007 (UTC).

Actually I did create a notice on your talk page http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:Bzuk#Copyright_Status_in_Question I am an editor who is trying to enforce the rules in reference to copyright images on Misplaced Pages. Please see WP:IUP, furthremore, I am not stating that you, Bzuk are vandalising Misplaced Pages by uploading the images, I am stating that the users Akradecki and Denniss have reverted the images which I believe to be vandalism. -TabooTikiGod 00:14, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism is a strong term. While they might have not been following policy, this case is not blatant and it is probably just a misunderstanding of some unknown copyright. A lighter tone might have been more appropriate. O₂ (息 • 吹) 02:28, 16 November 2007 (GMT)

User:Arrnous

See this version of is User page, which I have blanked. Arrnous (talk · contribs) has come into Misplaced Pages with a POV and all of his edits are BLP violations and personal attacks. I have issued a warning about the User page, and he blanked the warning. He needs watching. Corvus cornix 23:21, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

For some reason, this got deleted from here. I'm readding it, and adding a notice that all warnings have been removed from his Talk page and he continues his POV editing. Corvus cornix 23:32, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

User was reported at AIV, and I have blocked them for 24 hours. TigerShark 23:35, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

It got deleted in User:Bzuk's edit Darkson (Yabba Dabba Doo!) 23:39, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, didn't read carefully. Won't happen again. FWIW Bzuk 00:03, 16 November 2007 (UTC).

'Sa'right.  :) Corvus cornix 02:26, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

AGF

It might be helpful for an uninvolved user to step in and notify the user that posted this (see the last paragraph) to please try to assume good faith. I have enough trouble when engaging in lengthy discussions with conspiracy theorists without the added hurdle to finding common ground when I'm being labeled the enemy. Thanks. · jersyko talk 01:20, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I've left a friendly note. --Haemo 01:36, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Administrator violating Misplaced Pages policy

It is clear that from the source of this image from WWII in Color that the "Copyright : unknown"

Even after knowing this information, the user Akradecki chose to revert this copyright tag twice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Image%3AP-51D_Tika_IV_361st_fg.jpg&diff=171792994&oldid=171760889

Image History page

• Additional violations:

http://en.wikipedia.org/Image:P-59_Airacomet.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/Image:Spitfire_V_316.jpg

Please see: User Akradecki contributions history and discussion

-TabooTikiGod 02:41, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Just because a copyright is unknown does not mean the image is free, or in the public domain. If an image isn't free, and doesn't meet specific criteria, it can't be used. There's no admin abuse here. --Bfigura 03:04, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Striking my last comments since on my first pass, I had the roles reversed in my head. I'm not sure the tags should have been reverted as the copyright status seems unclear, but I'm not sure this counts as admin abuse, since no buttons were invoked that I see. --Bfigura 03:23, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I've already said those exact words a bazillion times already on two separate projects. I'm not going to repeat them. O₂ (息 • 吹) 03:08, 16 November 2007 (GMT)

Then how do you explain the logic posted here? http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Aircraft#Help_needed_on_Image_challenges Please read the section with the images and reasoning that Akradecki uses to cite why the image is "okay" to use.

Image:P-51D Tika IV 361st fg.jpg: This was clearly taken from another Army air corps plane...and is obviously PD.

Image:P-63 Kingcobras.jpg: same as above...air-to-air inherently must be PD because of where it was shot. Image:P-59 Airacomet.jpg: same, air-to-air First 3, saving before looking at more. AKRadeckiSpeaketh 01:27, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Image:B-25 refuelling.jpg: This one could go either way. Bzuk, you noted on your license tag that the author had released it...I don't see that on the original site, can you point me two where you got this info? Image:P-39N.jpg: Given the location and setting, could not have been taken by anyone other than another serviceman. Image:B-25s in New Guinea.jpg: air-to-air during a bombing raid. No one was in the air except servicement. Image:B 24 in raf service 23 03 05.jpg: Another obvious one. As the plane is british, the brit tag is most appropriate. Image:Capturedfw190 red.jpg: Copyright is claimed at source, so if you want to use this, add Fair Use rationale (it would be certainly legit...no way to reproduce that!) Incidently, the website URL for the copyright isn't working. Image:Fw 190A starting up.jpg: Bzuk, need clarification on S. Kunker's release. I'll leave this one tagged for now. Image:Fw 190As in flight.jpg: Bzuk, this one too. Incidently, there was discussion somewhere recently about captured Nazi material being PD...does anyone recall where this was discussed? Image:Me 262 Abandoned.jpg, Image:Junkers 88.1.jpg, Image:Junkers 88k2.jpg, Image:Junkers 88.jpg More for Bzuk. Image:Stirling of 7 sqn.jpg: This was properly tagged, as it is clearly before 1957.

Image:Spitfire V 316.jpg: UK image older that 50 years, so PD.

-TabooTikiGod 03:15, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

You were told that their reverts weren't vandalism here, and it's obvious from the discussion that this might not be a clear-cut case of a copyright violation. So please stop edit warring, TabooTikiGod. You've already violated the three-revert rule at least once , though I haven't really bothered looking for more. -- RG 08:54, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

SqueakBox and Burma

Background: at the end of September/beginning of October there was an extended and highly publicised requested move discussion, archived here, the result of which was to move the article Myanmar to the title Burma.

SqueakBox does not seem to have accepted this outcome. After revert warring with Husond over the closure of requested move opened a few days ago, SqueakBox opened another requested move discussion a few hours ago. Vegaswikian, noting that the discussion was premature this soon after the earlier one, altered the heading to redirect it into a discussion to try to build consensus in anticipation of a future requested move, and removed the pointer at WP:RM. SqueakBox reverted that alteration and accused Vegaswikian of trolling.

Having noticed this as a result of this thread above, I closed the requested move discussion, on the basis that the matter was only recently discussed in a very extensive debate, and there was no reason to suspect that consensus had changed so quickly. SqueakBox reverted, with the edit summary "rm trolling POV pushing sigh this is not welcom". I re-closed the discussion, reminding SqueakBox that as I had not participated in any of the earlier discussions (I don't think I've ever edited anything related to this country) I was an uninvolved administrator, and that if he wished to contest the closure he could do so here at ANI. Apparently accepting my closure on that basis, SqueakBox instead re-opened an earlier discussion which had been closed on exactly the same basis, with the edit summary "trolling the proposer canot speedily close". I then re-closed that one, exhorting SqueakBox to follow Vegaswikian's advice and continue to work on his arguments.

SqueakBox has now spliced the two closed discussions together in a new section (, ), with the edit summary "sigh following instructions you activists NPOV is non negotiable". I don't want to revert SqueakBox anymore, but I think that this conduct is not appropriate. Thoughts? --bainer (talk) 02:42, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

A block should be in order. Not only he doesn't stop this massive disruption as he won't listen to explanations on why should he stop, and ultimately resorts to attacks towards those who revert him. Húsönd 03:44, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I also call for the current new move proposal at Talk:Burma to be speedy closed (again). Totally out of process. Húsönd 03:47, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I also call for a block. This is clearly disruption. DEVS EX MACINA _pray 03:57, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I've blocked him for 6 hours. If someone wants to extend to 24, I won't gripe. Tomer 04:05, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Excuse me? Blocks are preventative, i.e. to prevent further or imminent disruption, not punitive. Why then did you block SqueakBox two hours after his last edit? --Iamunknown 09:01, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

You're welcome to register your point of order near the top of this page with respect to the block MastCell imposed upon me. I was not engaged in either disruption nor edit warring. My block here was meant to be a signal, more than anything else, to SqueakBox that his disruption and edit warring are unacceptable. That is not punitive, it is preventative. It is also barely more than symbolic at this point, especially since, as you point out, he was apparently finished editing for the evening. Tomer 09:16, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I am not qualified to comment on the block of your account, as I am blissfully unfamiliar with the intimate details of the AOA arbitration.

As to the matter at hand, your block of SqueakBox, I do not consider your block "symbolic", I consider humiliation of an established editor. This is not a statement of your intentions, which you have clarified were fine and just, but it is a statement of the community's perception of blocks. SqueakBox is an established editor and, though he can be disruptive at times, I feel deserves to be engaged in discussion rather than blocked as a common troll. In the very least, he has shown good will with regard to accepting criticism and thereafter acting more appropriately. I do not understand why the article was not simply move-protected. --Iamunknown 09:27, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

As I understand it, SqueakBox did not move the article, so discussion of move protection as a remedy is a non sequitur. I apologize if I sounded dismissive of your inquiry above, but I was truly incensed that you should take such a strong stance in support of SqueakBox when you have said nothing about me. As I said on SqueakBox's talk page when I blocked him, he is an established editor, well enough established to know better than to editwar (ah, new verbs, thank you WP) and disrupt the project with his call for a new rename vote. I can understand how you could perceive this as a punitive move, but it was my intention that it should be regarded as preventative. We may regard the boundaries between preventative and punitive somewhat differently, but I don't think it is at all fair to characterize this block as indicative of the sentiment, on my part nor on that of any others, that SqueakBox is but a "common troll". Your registering your strong dislike of my blocking of SqueakBox "as a common troll", and at the same time, failure to say a word above about my having been blocked "as a common troll", apparently, was grievously offensive to me, whether you intended any offense or not. In that vein, I hope you'll understand the source of the somewhat harsh tone I took with you previously. Tomer 09:48, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the block of your account, as before, I am unfamiliar with the details surrounding anything or anyone mentioned in that thread and so my uninformed opinion would be useless.

Otherwise, I think that difference in perception is probably in part an explanation. I am aware that my thoughts about blocking tend to be a lot more malleable and relative than others'. I would vehemently argue against a strict set of criteria, but that would be more appropriate at another forum. --Iamunknown 10:02, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

In any case, rightly or wrongly, the block is about to expire. Hopefully the aforementioned disruption and edit warring will not continue. Tomer 10:05, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Dunno about alleged disruption but I do recognise that edit warring disrupts the project. My point is that a user who legitimately suggests a move should not weeks later close a continuing debate on the subject, its a clear internal COI. And he speedily closed citing that the debate was not listed at RM. So I listed at RM and this was the result. This episode shames wikipedia and all who were involved in it (which is me too). Thanks, SqueakBox 10:26, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

My two cents - most people don't have any POV regarding the title of the page (i.e. I call it "Burma" because I always have, not because I support political party/junta/etc X). The move therefore should be based upon what the most common name is. But anyway, as long as Myanmar redirects to Burma or vice-versa, it's all moot. As it was only moved a month ago, with at least a 2-1 (and possibly a 3-1) majority to move, leave it be for a few months, then reopen discussion if enough people have a valid (i.e. not "filthy anglo/american imperialists") concerns. We don't want more drama than there already is. Will 13:13, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't see a problem with non-binding discussions to gauge if consensus has changed. There apparently are a number of editors who are giving their comments who did not participate in the previous move debate. Shutting down discussions because a similar discussion by a different set of people happenede before is very un-wiki. --Polaron | Talk 16:48, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Massive, disruptive canvassing

• Ta bu shi da yu (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is engaging in massive internal spamming/votestacking for a deletion discussion in blatant violation of Misplaced Pages:Canvassing#Votestacking, and refuses to stop despite a request on his talk page. John254 03:09, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

It's not that big a deal, especially when the page is just a photo page of Wikipedians, and not an article or anything of consequence. gaillimh 03:30, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I see Ta bu shi da yu has been blocked. I'm not a great fan of this block, as he was clearly trying to alert people of something they had participated in was about to be deleted. It wasn't as if he was spamming random users. And as gaillimh says - it's not as if it was over anything important. I would certainly support an immediate unblock. Ryan Postlethwaite 03:41, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I would agree with Ryan and gaillimh. I don't think Ta bu was doing this in bad faith and is quite distressed over this whole issue. Mr.Z-man 03:50, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) It is a big deal when you consider his related actions over the past 24 hours:

A. Speedy kept an MfD out of protocol,

B. Attacked the nominator (as a sock!!),

C. Canvassed (and was blocked ) once he realized the DRV would over turn his out of protocol speedy keep.

--12 Noon 03:54, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Agree with 12 Noon. And in response to Mr.Z-man, it is abundantly clear that he is "quite distressed over the issue"—quite so, to the point of irrational behavior. He needed to disengage and refused to do so voluntarily, thus the 1-hour block was entirely appropriate. Mike R 04:06, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

What he said. I fully support this action and would have done it if I hadn't had to step away for a while. Metros 04:16, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Whoa, I think the dude just retired . Maybe something is going on behind the scenes with him? He seemed to just be having a bad day, but maybe it is much more serious than that?--12 Noon 04:02, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Don't sweat it. He just needs a break. He's quit and come back several times before. Mike R 04:06, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Not if he scrambled his password. - 211.30.71.131 04:32, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Bleh I scrambled my password of my old account after stupid conflect, I came back with a new one, he needs a break and I hope he comes back soon. This is a Secret 04:46, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

He has hardly retired, now he is using the anon account to add comments 211.30.71.131 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Is this appropriate or is that considered a sock? Seems like that is circumventing the block.--12 Noon 04:59, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

If I read the timestamps correctly, 211.30.71.131 didn't edit while the block on Ta bu shi da yu was in effect. Mike R 05:07, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Oh, OK. Still seems underhanded to add to the MfD without identifying himself. I added a tag after the IP address identifying him. I hope that is not too crass, but I think others have a right to know.--12 Noon 05:14, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Only as underhand as using a sockpuppet account to participate in xfd. I'm just popping back in to protest at you changing that signature on MFD! - 211.30.71.131 (talk) 23:36, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I'd just like to throw in there that I also think this was a bad block. I've said it once and I'll say it again, if I'm involved with a page, or if I add myself to a category, etc, then there's really no issue if someone notifies me or someone in a similar situation of something like a deletion discussion related to that page. The fact that this page had a large number of participants is nothing more than a technicality. -- Ned Scott 06:49, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I am inclined to agree. MFD doesn't get all that much attention, and it is WAY too easy to get Misplaced Pages: space pages deleted by a small number of opinionated people. Notifying interested parties that the page is up for deletion is quite acceptable. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 07:12, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Is this behaviour even characteristic of this particular editor? I am wondering if something has happened either to the editor or the account. --健次(derumi) 07:13, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes it's normal of him when he becomes very upset. Surely any other admin who's been around since 2005 and knoweth TSBDY will tell you the same. Awyong Jeffrey Mordecai Salleh 07:21, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not as concerned about the notice as I am about item B - any admin should know enough not to create a sock puppet and it them solely for making a WP:POINT violating attack on another editor who has taken one of their decisions to an appropriate review venue. (See thread above or in archive.) That is the issue that I think most needed to be addressed, and I'm not sure a 6 hour block was sufficient. But I don't know this admins history to know if this is an uncharacteristic flipping out or a pattern of behavior. GRBerry 13:26, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Someone's going to have to explain to me how this falls under WP:CANVAS, because I don't see it. I also know that from time to time a proposal has been mooted that people who had edited any article up for deletion would receive a bot notification. Until I see more information, I have to call this a defensible block with unfortunate outcomes, as 1 hour is certainly proportionate, and editors do disagree on the canvassing policy. Mackensen (talk) 12:27, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it was canvassing either. And I'd strongly support exactly the sort of bot-mediated notification that Mackensen describes above. Far too often articles simply are "disappeared" around here when one of the cool kids decides they don't like the article, AfDs it, and quietly manages to quickly gain enough support for the deletion while none of the fans of the article are even aware that it's in jeopardy. This sneakyness is one of the principal reasons I've cut way back on my participation here. The notifications that Ta bu shi da yu was providing are exactly what a fair system would do automatically.

Atlant 12:52, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Really I'm having trouble seeing anything re: canvassing here. I don't know that he actually stated to "go vote keep..." but I do think he just should have walked away from this a while ago as he clearly has a passion for this, the outcome so far has just been unfortunate. -Pilotguy contact tower 13:40, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

The massive scale of the posting does make it canvassing in my opinion. The "votestacking" section of WP:CANVASS is also relevant, because the editors who were contacted were those who were listed on the page nominated for deletion.

I think this incident raises the issue whether it is reasonable to expect editors to watchlist the articles they care about, or check MFD every few days. If an editor doesn't do these things, and we don't permit canvassing, the editor may feel left out from deletion discussions. The no-canvassing policy is, in my opinion, an unfortunate consequence of the way we close deletion discussions. Does it need to be modified to allow this sort of canvassing, for wikipedia: namespace pages? — Carl (CBM · talk) 13:53, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I would agree that, taken by itself, posting the "friendly notices" on other talk pages may seem innocent; but when taken together with the big picture (harassing the nominator of the MfD and usage of a sock, uncivil actions, point-pushing, not to mention the ill-fated speedy closing of the MfD after 1.5 hours), it is hard to assume good faith here. IMO, taken with the other evidence, canvassing appears to be the motive. Additionally, this guy (he's a he, not a she) has been around for years, so he should know the rules (and how to skirt the rules), so I would not give him the benefit of the doubt. From comments above, it appears that this seems to be his modus operandi. But I guess it is rather subjective - but this case seems a little extreme. Regards.--12 Noon 16:16, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't generally have a problem with alerting editors to things they are likely to take an interest in, although I have to say that's a lot of alerting, nearly 100 people, and I think when it's at that level a person might want to consider trying to get the message across in some other way. And aside from that, some of TBSDY's surrounding behavior seems worrying. I'm not sure it rises to the level of a block, however, and I hope TBSDY hasn't truly quit over this. Everyking 16:26, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I think his actions were clearly canvassing/votestacking. Going around "alerting" people who have an interest in that page is nothing more than shopping for keeps. I think this block is fully warranted and think that an even longer one would be appropriate. I'm very sorry that this person has done good things here, but he also has a long history of odd behavior, including 3RR violations, petty vandalism, "retiring" and then coming back, and lately the abuse of his admin tools to speedy keep an MFD discussion out of process, harassing me with a sockpuppet (which was indefblocked specifically with that reason in the summary), and then when DRV overturned his speedy, he proceeds to shop for votes in an effort to either 1) votestack, or 2) bugger up the discussion so that it results in a "no consensus". As I stated in the new MFD, I'm shocked that this person was trusted with admin tools. Ya know, I'm sorry if he's a friend of yours but that's no excuse for this behavior, particularly since admins should really know better. Everyone here needs to follow the rules equally and be held equally accountable when they blatantly contravene them. (edit) Furthermore, as the MFD template was placed on the page per the normal process, anyone who has watchlisted that page would be able to see for themself that it was being nominated for deletion. Anyone who added their photo to the page would, almost certainly, be someone who wants to keep the page, so alerting them all is clear voteshopping to me. -- Nobody of Consequence (talk) 17:49, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I have thousands of pages on my watchlist; I don't look at every edit to every page. Sorry, you're not going to convince me that it's canvassing to notify some of hundreds of people who contributed to a page of its impending deletion; I believe it is just common decency.

Atlant (talk) 23:55, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, if the only people he's notifying are, by virtue of their having contributed to the WP:Facebook page, inherently predisposed to keeping it, that amounts to a violation of WP:CANVASS because the user is targeting a biased group of individuals instead of just any old neutral, "interested" members of the community.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 23:59, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Out of interest, who else should have been notified to make this "balanced"? The only people who noticed the MFD... are those who constantly participate in MFD. Regular editors who edit articles (and don't waste their time on xFD) probably won't discover this deletion until too late. - 211.30.71.131 (talk) 00:06, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

User:Speciate

Special:Contributions/Speciate. . |dorf|trottel| |mess|age| 03:42, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Messages reverted by me, blocked by Eagle 101 (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA). Daniel 03:46, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I've unblocked after reading Speciate's explanation. This is a lesson about WP:AGF. As they say, never assume malice when stupidity will suffice. Stupidity, it turns out, will suffice for a whole lot.

My unblock message and comment on Speciate's talk page may be less civil than is ideal. I find myself not really caring that much, but if somebody wants to block me for it, I'll find it really funny. Phil Sandifer 04:26, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm logged out and have left the project, but would like to add this note of support for Phil. That sucks man. - 211.30.71.131 04:40, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

No, Phil, you were kinder than I would have been. I think that this user ought to be blocked for a very long time, especially given the statement "be warned" or whatever and the clear meaning behind it. Charles 04:33, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

If there was ever a case to use IAR to trump CIVIL, this is it. I'm calling Phil next time I need to give somebody what-for. I assume I'm just being paranoid by raising the question whether this might have been the person responsible for the report in the first place. -- But|seriously|folks  04:38, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

The eagerness to simply post it around as the user did leads me to believe so, or at least that the user simply does not care about the reputations of others. Charles 04:50, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Phil's actions and reactions were totally justified. It is suspicious, too, BSF... hard to assume good faith when someone does something as despicable as this. DEVS EX MACINA _pray 05:03, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Possible Spam and COI editing by search engine optimization firm

Could I get some of you to look at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Dylan Thwaites. There are possible sock puppets advocating for a bio and corporate article of a SEO firm' CEO and the firm itself. For several years I have kept watch over the SEO-related articles because they are a honeypot for SEO spammers and COI editors. By nipping these folks in the bud when they start articles about their own firm, we prevent them from creating dozens of advertisements within Misplaced Pages for their clients. An IP editor, first edit, has accused me of attempting to delete the article because the fellow competes with me. Well, I'm in the US and he's in the UK, and we have no connection whatsoever, but I'd rather that somebody else handled this. - Jehochman 05:13, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't see too many "keep votes" there, could you please provide some diffs for this. VivioFateFan 11:30, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Having seen the thread here I've gone through and added some refs and some more info to the article, seems to be alright as per WP:BIO just noting here so I don't get accused later of being a sock/SPA :P I'm not paranoid, it's happened before. - Dureo 11:46, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

For example, VivioFateFan, your account was created in late October and immediately started making lots of WikiGnome edits. The activity of this account shows that it's either an alternate account, or a replacement account of an experienced user. You yourself have suggested keeping the article. - Jehochman 14:20, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Attack after attack

Im here to report the many attacks on newcomers coming from User:Calton. As seen on his talk pages and archives, many other users have tried to resolve the disputes that Calton has created. One of them was me. He bit me for putting a template warning him not to write on a persons user page. He started "yelling at me" and an edit war started. Many other users have also been bitten by Calton, saying that he has been making rude remarks to them, about trolling, and that they are claiming authority. I see that Calton has been blocked once before already. If you would like evidence, please go to the talk pages of Caltons and see the unofficial "testimonies" already made by fellow users. Please consider this case as I would not like any more new users to be attacked by Calton. Gunnerdevil4 05:17, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

What this appears to boil down to is that you templated a regular and Calton quite understandably didn't like it. You've admitted that you don't know why you put the template there and your overreaction - threatening to take it to ArbCom - is just short of hilarious. I'd suggest that you simply let the matter fade away gracefully into the night, because you're digging yourself a hole with every post. FCYTravis 05:41, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I understand that I may have overreacted but what about everyone else that has tried to talk with Calton? And besides, Calton shouldn't have overeacted himself. I threatened to send this to ArbCom because of his failure to display Good Faith. Again, this isn't just about me too. Gunnerdevil4 05:57, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

And another thing, on the WP:DTTR article it says that if I templated a regular by mistake, the guy that was templated shouldn't bite the person that templated the regular.Gunnerdevil4 06:04, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

You've been advised to stop digging the hole. You would be well-advised to heed that advice. Unless, of course, you want to keep digging, in which case I'll get out some popcorn and watch, as it's kind of humorous. K. Scott Bailey 06:08, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Fine, just resolve it. Gunnerdevil4 06:34, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Block of User:Veesicle

After Veesicle made this edit to David Gerard's userpage, and then when asked about it replied that it was a point, JzG blocked indefinitely for "abject stupidity", Viridae unblocked saying there was no warning, and I reblocked for 24 hours since clearly some block length was in order. Before this escalates into a wheel war, we should discuss it here. Thoughts? JoshuaZ 05:42, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Indefinite block without warning on an established account is clearly out of line. I support the 24 hours though for the sillyness. Viridae 05:46, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

As I stated on Guy's talk page, considering that the user did not request an unblock, and even appears to be accepting of his block, you should have at least attempted to discuss it with Guy before unblocking. It may not quite be wheel-warring, but it is certainly a matter of admin-admin courtesy. - Crockspot 06:07, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Yawn. Next please? GRBerry 05:55, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

If you want to block people for "abject stupidity" then please propose such a policy and gain consensus for it first. Until that happens, it is not an appropriate reason for a block. That being said while a block may have been in order for other reasons, I don't think an indefinite block is in the best interest of Misplaced Pages. The new 24 hour block is much more appropriate. 1 != 2 06:08, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Unless WP blocks are now punitive, no block is in order. A simple warning, to go along with monitoring him for continuation of the disruptive behavior would seem a more prudent and policy-abiding action. K. Scott Bailey 06:16, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

You have a strong point there, but from Veesicles reaction he knew what he was doing, and just might do it again. I dunno :S Viridae 06:20, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes. This was a deliberate, calculated act of disruption. Guy (Help!) 09:12, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

• This was a deliberate and utterly unacceptable action. Looking at Veesicle's actions before and around that action, I would say that it was intended to get the account blocked. Veesicle has been disruptive for some time. This is no, I think, the first time that Viridae has reversed a block with absolutely no prior discussion whatsoever. At the very least, Veesicle should remain blocked until wehave some assurance that this kind of thing will not happen again. Labelling User:David Gerard as a sockpuppet of User:WordBomb is not even remotely acceptable, especially when his user page was then under attack by vindictive sockpuppets. The statement that it was deliberately disrupting Misplaced Pages to make a point, on Veesicle's talk page, makes it much worse. Misplaced Pages is not a MMORPG, these actions had precisely nothing to do with building an encyclopaedia. Given that Veesicle didn't even ask to be unblocked, I am at a loss to understand why Viridae felt the need to reverse the block without discussion. Guy (Help!) 09:10, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

You simply do not indef a long term contributor without warning. As with what Until(1 == 2) said. Viridae 09:53, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Indefinite does not mean forever, it means until they have undertaken not to repeat the utterly bizarre and completely unacceptable behaviour. And I do mean completely unacceptable. Long-term contributor? Debatable. Look at the mainspace edit activity: . Not that much of a contributor, compared with disruption like reopening a debate started by an anonymous editor using an open proxy bringing an allegation made by a banned editor with a grudge. Guy (Help!) 10:44, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

1 != 2 has made a reasoned point. User:JzG's reasoning was invalid, at least when concerning influential blocks. -- Anonymous Dissident 09:57, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

• The behaviour was disruptive, identified by the user themself as deliberately disruptive. Since when was that not a reason for blocking? Guy (Help!) 10:44, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
  • In this instance, I feel an indef block in this case might be uncalled for, and that the mod of time was a good move. -- Anonymous Dissident 10:50, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
    • I agree with Guy's point above. There is no problem with undoing the indef block when the editor promises not to repeat such a disruptive action. A fixed-time block is not really constructive as it does not affect the editor's ability to merely repeat such an action when they are unblocked, being effectively a "slap on the wrists". ELIMINATORJR 10:58, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
      • If a "slap on the wrist" helps, then it's better than a "summary execution". |dorf|trottel| |mess|age| 13:47, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

• This is an editor who has almost stopped editing, comes along and does something truly bizarre and completely unacceptable. That says to me that he's actively trying to be blocked and run. Guy (Help!) 13:48, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Hum. Ok, I'll have to admit I didn't check up on the context of that action. But maybe Veesicle will yet come around to do more useful contributions? Not sure though, and certainly not my call. |dorf|trottel| |mess|age| 13:53, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

If the editor does intend to be disruptive and does something like this again we'll give him a long or indefinite block. But we shouldn't indef block simply over a single edit from an otherwise productive user (even an that is highly disruptive, offensive and trying to make a point). Also, our block summaries really shouldn't be things that read like the block summaries at Conservapedia. That should be a bad sign by itself. JoshuaZ 13:55, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

I can see the point that this user may have been aiming for a block through this action, but I don't think it is in itself deserving of a block, although a warning is certainly in order. He might very well have apologized and promised not to do such things in the future, while a poor reaction to the warning might have confirmed the need for a block (but still probably not indefinite). Everyking 16:40, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Request restoration of image speedly-deleted

Resolved – Editor has advice for dealing with future content deletions. Nothing more to do. ··coelacan 21:49, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Resolved

Resolved – Reverted copyvio material. Arakunem 16:08, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Resolved – Will be handled by mail, nothing to be done here. — Sebastian 19:58, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Resolved – ··coelacan 23:10, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

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