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Triple crown request

Sorry to bother, but I've decided to nominate myself for one of the coveted Imperial Triple Crown Jewels awards.

• DYK: Kinzua Bridge • Gudgeonville Covered Bridge
• GA: Erie, Pennsylvania • Presque Isle State Park
• FC: Erie, Pennsylvania (FA) • Image:Brig Niagara 1913 edit.jpg (FP)

--​​​​D​​tbohrer​​​​ 05:10, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Awarded. Durova 10:53, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Greetings

The australian project - does it need crowns? Surely boomerangs or didgeridoos would be a lot more locale specific - crowns in australia are reflective of what a misunderstanding what australia is in the twenty first century even if prince charles camilla and lady di have downed more trees for the womens magazines of the last ten years than any other persons on the planet. Great idea to reward the achievers, pity about the symbols. Cheers - and all meant in good faith (and bet there is nothing in any of it that rewards the maintainers who have to tidy up after others - like stuffed up category tags, or oz arts with no cats etc etc) - so great idea and im not knocking it - but someone has to point out that there is more than one way to assert positive messages to the thin crowd on the ground who actually really do anything in the australia project - so thanks for that at least! SatuSuro 10:47, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Think of it in terms of horse racing. Maybe that idea will go down better with a Foster's. :) Best, Durova 10:53, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Maybe - I prefer boags myself - but just because one horse gets a brrass razoo in november - doesnt mean that dyk countitis or fa or ga countitis is the best way to see how projects are kept up and running, my feeling is the horses right rear leg is being rewarded with a golden slipper when the real work of keeping projects away from the chop is usually the other three legs too - :) SatuSuro 11:05, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I am probably about to be off wikipedia very soon for about another 3 months - I will try hard to ignore your stuff so as to not interfere with the positive aspect of it regardless of the redundancy - and put up a suggestion on the oz noticeboard for the real workers - the project creators and maintainers - with a drovers hat and corks - where the things that matter are things like coding the templates and starting and maintaining projects - and keeping watch over the hot spots in the projects - there are the places in my opinion that some editors who may never get a single FA GA or DYK actually save the projects from oblivion. Probably wont have the time to create the slouch hat and corks image - but in my opinion australia has got more from sheep/cattle drovers in the last 100 years than a crown ever did for the place apart from thousands of australians dying in wars - ok ive done my piece - I wish you peace and have a good christmas! SatuSuro 11:29, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Triple Crown request

Hi. I believe I qualify for Triple Crown for work on the Australian wikiproject:

• DYK: Here I Am (Natalie Gauci song) (RA)
• GA: Cyclone Rosita
• FC: List of Silverchair awards (FLC)

Thanks. RaNdOm26 11:24, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Triple Crown

Thank you very much for the triple crown! You are an individual of great ideas and the triple crown is a most excellent one. Thanks again. LordHarris 16:53, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Matthew Hoffman case

Hi Durova. I saw the evidence you posted at the Hoffman arbitration case. Can I ask how your evidence fits in with the following sections of evidence? Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Matthew Hoffman/Evidence#MatthewHoffman account created in October 2005, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Matthew Hoffman/Evidence#Evidence of MatthewHoffman's editing inexperience, Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Matthew Hoffman/Evidence#Awareness of Misplaced Pages jargon. Also, this case started when someone claiming to be Matthew C. Hoffman e-mailed an arbitrator, so the claim here is that there is a real person called Matthew Hoffman operating the account, which quite plainly means he is not a sock-puppet. I'm aware that articles like irreducible complexity suffer from lots of sock-puppet attacks, but is the answer really to put the article and related ones on parole? Has that really helped in past cases? Carcharoth 21:36, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Also, "For an adult who takes the time to read documentation and look at examples of article text, it is trivial to understand what Misplaced Pages is and how it works before contributing." - should we expect such adults to not mind being suspected of being sock-puppets? Carcharoth 21:39, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflicted)

I have no direct involvement in the case and little else to say, although I may add more to my own evidence and participate at the workshop. What happened was that I noticed the case a few days ago, saw that someone had mentioned the possibility of offsite canvassing, and noticed that nobody had presented evidence directly to that effect. Several months ago I had seen a series of Discovery Institute blogs while I was doing routine searches on other subjects. It's rare for such an established organization to take those positions in an official manner, so it seemed like something worth following up more systematically.

I also don't see how you eliminate the possibility of sockpuppetry by that argument. All that really states is that someone who claims to be Matthew C. Hoffman e-mailed an arbitrator. I do not know whether that is actually the person's real name, although the Committee might have better information, but if it is true there's no particular reason to conclude that this person never used a previous account or edited unregistered by some IP address. That also provides no reason to exclude the possibility of offsite canvassing or meatpuppetry. That said, I have no definitive reason to conclude that either sockpuppetry or meatpuppetry was involved in this instance. My evidence demonstrates that these are routine practices among activists in this movement, and that Matthew Hoffman's edit history is consistent with that hypothesis.

Reviewing the circumstances, I would have preferred very much if a longer and broader community discussion had taken place. To criticize the few uninvolved parties who did respond and to name them as parties to arbitration is counterproductive: these ban discussions need more input, not less. Probably some probational unblock with mentorship would have been my response if I had noticed this instance as it unfolded.

In response to your amended comment, my evidence demonstrated some background worthy of consideration. Most encyclopedic topics are not surrounded by specific activism of this type. Durova 21:56, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

"My evidence demonstrates that these are routine practices among activists in this movement, and that Matthew Hoffman's edit history is consistent with that hypothesis." - but if his edit history is also consistent with that of an editor who created an account two years ago and recently started editing, after lurking for some time, how do you distinguish the two? Is it more harmful to assume he is a sock puppet, or more harmful to assume he is a de-lurking user? And do the sites you mention routinely impersonate real people to push their POV? Surely impersonating real people is a crime in most countries? Carcharoth 23:18, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

• ..."there's no particular reason to conclude that this person never used a previous account or edited unregistered by some IP address..." - by this definition, we are all possible sock puppets. Carcharoth 23:21, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps I should amend that to say there's no definitive reason to conclude that this person is a sock- or meatpuppet. In some respects the difference hardly matters: an account with a short history that quotes policy and demands the respect that would be accorded an experienced editor arguably deserves to get blocked like an experienced editor when he or she violates policy. By that standard it doesn't make much difference whether the policy knowledge comes from extensive lurking or some other means. The log for this account shows it had existed for two years. Or to look at the other side of this case, a fair measurement of Adam Cuerden's decisions ought to weigh the context of sustained disruptive activism. If this action had come out of the blue on some uncontroversial topic, then I'd have greater worries about Adam Cuerden's judgement. Clearly the administrators who volunteered on this subject had a lot of work responding to disruptive activism. I'd like to see article parole for this subject. That solution has done good things for Waldorf education and Scientology. I'd also like to see a better community banning policy, because the one we have right now has some serious shortcomings. Durova 23:56, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Sure. The 3RR block was uncontroversial and warranted. But I disagree with you on the 72-hour block. Where was the evidence of the allegation of harassment made in the block log? Where was the evidence of the allegation of "extreme rudeness" made in the block notice? Carcharoth 10:37, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I'd base the case on WP:POINT instead of rudeness because of the singlemindedness of article edits and talk page dialog. This person was persistently arguing against consensus. The tricky point it - and you may have a good case to make here - what's the difference between disruption and a legitimate minority view? When I gave this matter a first pass I was thinking this was an obvious candidate for an article content RFC. Then I looked into the off-wiki side of things and wasn't so sure that would work. And in fairness to Matthew Hoffman I'll mention the possibility that the article talk was being watched independently even if he had nothing to do with that movement. Based upon the Discovery Institute blog about an IP that got blocked after only three days of editing, the best interpretation of that situation is that the Discovery Institute keeps very close watch on Misplaced Pages articles at this topic. I suppose that depending on one's view of ID the chain of events can take a dramatically different appearance. Durova 10:58, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

You really think people should be blocked for "persistently arguing against consensus"? And how do you balance between letting a new editor argue their point at one article before widening their interests (and in fairness and good faith the new editor assumption needs to be made in the absence of any article parole or evidence of sock puppetry), and deciding that this editor is only interested in one thing (ie. a single-purpose account)? One day, a week, two months, 5 edits, 20 edits, 100 edits? In this case it was one week and 19 edits (some quite long talk page posts, but that is nothing to be overly concerned about). Remember what Nascentathiest said: "I would be remiss in my responsibilities as an editor if I didn't respectfully suggest that, if an action is deemed necessary, a more restricted ban be instituted, perhaps from the Project for a few days, and a longer ban from the subject article and talk page - just to see if this is, indeed, a single-user account, or if "Matthew" can find other ways to contribute to the Project by editing other articles about which he doesn't have such strong feelings." - that would have been the perfect end to what had been a poorly-handled situation, and Adam turned round and (not wanting to "over-ride consensus") said "no". Extremely poor judgment. Carcharoth 11:31, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, just realised I veered off towards the indefinite block again. Still, I don't think a 72-hour block for arguing on the talk page was warranted in the slightest. That has a chilling effect on talk page discussion. Carcharoth 11:31, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Another point, returning to WP:BITE here, is that people using their real names will be affronted if they are accused of sock puppetry. If you used your real name and were accused of being a sock puppet, how would you feel? You can't just say "you registered two years ago and seem to know what you are talking about, so don't be so sensitive to allegations of sock-puppetry" - that devalues the seriousness of a sock-puppetry allegation. Carcharoth 11:29, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

The tough call is whether to treat an account with a very short edit history that acts this way as a new user or an experienced one - AGF leaves us with long term lurker. If I had been Adam I wouldn't have done it; I would have opened an AN thread in place of the 72 hour block. But I don't think the use of one's real name has any bearing on the decision. Durova 11:37, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

With the point being that no-one realised it was a 2-year old account until I pointed this out after the arbitration case had been opened. It seems that most people don't click on the "logs" bit of a set of user links. I only noticed when I saw that the talk page welcome template was two years old. So it looks like most people were still assuming this was a new user, not a 2-year lurker, or at best kept silent about this. And it is not impossible to register an account and only sporadically lurk over 2 years before taking the plunge. If people lurking right now are seeing things like this happening, will that make them more or less likely to start editing Misplaced Pages and is that good or bad? (no, that's obvious, it's bad if lurkers decide not to get involved because they see how people are treated). Carcharoth 11:49, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

In fairness, I didn't even realize anything was going on until arbitration was underway. If I'd seen the noticeboard discussions I would have tried to work something out. May I put a totally different spin on this? I'm curious what you think of the examples I listed as evidence. Particularly the admitted sock accounts. How would you have handled them if you did or didn't know that they were socks? Durova 11:54, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

OK, I'll do that if you say how you think we should treat good-faith lurkers. :-) Carcharoth 11:58, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I guess you and I have considerably different estimates of that. I'd certainly have handled the unblocking part more proactively, but I wouldn't come down quite so hard for blocking in the first place. Can we respectfully agree to disagree on a couple of points? Durova 12:03, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough. This has been a useful discussion. Thanks. I'll have a look now, but it may take me a while to respond to your examples. Remind me if I forget. Carcharoth 12:18, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I did have a brief look, mainly at the Chahax section. I'm not convinced, as the main thing I see there are reasonable arguments that should be rebutted, rather than silenced by blocking. A widespread and persistent pattern is needed before that crosses the line from being argumentative to being disruptive, in my opinion. Carcharoth 12:47, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

The "sock" issue is a bit of a red herring. Socks, in themselves, aren't the problem. The problem is tendentious POV editing that wastes the time of legitimate editors who are actually seeking NPOV articles. The process of finding the text for this can be difficult, and it involves, sometimes, editors to be bold even in asserting their own POV, but socks become relevant to this because a sock is risking little, especially if it is a sock of a user who has already been blocked, for socks, if they have a strong POV to push -- and often they do, that's why they are socks -- are not restrained by the prospect of sanctions. If a tendentious editor shows reasonable signs of being a sock *in the judgment of the administrator*, I consider it legitimate to block. Thus Durova was correct, even if she was erred. If an administrator never errs, the administrator is not bold enough to function as Misplaced Pages needs. Treating a block, which is easily reversible, as if it were a death penalty and imposing it in error a crime, is little short of insane. When an administrator uses blocking to preserve some personal agenda, *this* is a problem, and should be addressed directly.

Socks and tendentious editors should, in my opinion, be treated with the utmost courtesy. And firmness. An administrator who is functioning appropriately is acting on behalf of all Misplaced Pages users, and should keep that in mind; administrative actions are quite similar to the actions of a chair of a meeting; the chair rules on points of order, and has total freedom to do so, but is also always subject to appeal to the membership. A chair can order a member considered disruptive removed from a meeting. If the chair does this in a punitive way, it's offensive. But done as protection, it is quite proper whenever the chair, in his or her sole discretion, considers it necessary. And then if the members don't agree, any one of them can protest, and if any other member seconds the appeal, it takes priority. All these principles were worked out centuries ago.... Don't trust the chair to decide properly and neutrally: move that the office of chair be vacated! And then elect a new one. Don't like how a Misplaced Pages admin operates? Challenge it, that's proper, and the problem here is that the process became offensive and abusive, from what I've seen, to Durova. We should have been protecting her, even if it was necessary to correct an error. Administrators should not have to defend themselves or their action. I've been a chair of a national meeting of a very contentious group. If I was challenged on a ruling, I didn't argue it. I briefly presented my reasons -- and not necessarily all of them, and then proceeded with the appeal process, being not attached to any outcome. My job as chair was to serve the consensus, not my own opinions, and if the majority wanted to do something different, that was their prerogative, entirely. Besides, I make mistakes, I can be wrong, it's an important realization. (In a face-to-face meeting majority rule makes sense, because the alternative is not supermajority rule or consensus, it is minority rule; Misplaced Pages is different for lots of good reasons.)

It is a Misplaced Pages guideline not to describe how to damage Misplaced Pages. It's clear to me that certain puppet masters are becoming more sophisticated. I could describe what they are doing, and how I can still detect them -- even without checkuser, which, of course, I don't have and which is cumbersome to request unless one is familiar with it -- but that could then help other puppet masters more rapidly improve their techniques. I understand why Durova was reluctant to reveal her methods, and I find it offensive that it would be demanded that she do so publicly. Administrators are "trusted servants," and they either should be trusted or not. When an article I was working on was infested with sock puppets, a long-term anonymous IP editor who turned out to be the executive director of the major advocacy organization on the topic, COI editors, and the sock set up another sock to 3RR me out, an admin took a look at the situation and blocked almost everyone in sight, including two SPAs. When the administrator was challenged on the SPAs, he refused to explain his action and insisted it was justified. He was not, in any way, censured, nor should he have been. When I intervened to suggest that the SPAs could be unblocked and could be useful to the article, another admin unblocked them (and my intervention was cited). Which was also appropriate. I've somewhat regretted my intervention! -- but the principle was right. One sock has commented on Jimbo's user page that Devil's Advocates are important to Misplaced Pages, I agree. Within limits; the limit is that we aren't wasting much of our time dealing with repetitive POV edits, over and over.

--Abd 17:17, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

DYK

I placed your DYK in the next update but it was removed citing the short length. The overall length exceeds 1500 but someone else says it's 773 character, possibly because they didn't count all the references, etc. If you need help with it, let me know. I am always willing to help others write their articles so that it meets DYK criteria or to keep AFD candidates from deletion. Archtransit 23:03, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up. I was a little concerned about the length on that one, myself. I'll get right on it! Durova 23:05, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Expansion noted on the DYK page so there shouldn't be any complaints now! I love to help with DYK and to get good DYK hooks fixed. Nothing's worse that a good article failing to make DYK because of a technicality. In my opinion, it could be selected tomorrow! Archtransit 23:43, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

) Much appreciated. Durova 03:48, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks

Thank you very much. One of the lovelier barnstars if I may say so. Out of interest, which topics do/did you find the most interesting? Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 04:48, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

• Scotland in the High Middle Ages had me fascinated. I've never been to Scotland but there's a little bit of Celtic in me (Welsh). Living in a country where hardly any structure is more than a century or two old, history and ruins that go back so far have always fascinated me as something precious. Thanks for the hard work that went into making it featured. Durova 04:59, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Triple crown nom - Doctor Sunshine

• Doctor Sunshine

• DYK: article - Branded to Kill, but has several others as well: Zigeunerweisen (film), Kanto Wanderer, Joe Shishido, I.K.U., Dillinger Is Dead, 2007 Toronto International Film Festival
• GA: article - Branded to Kill
• FC: page - Branded to Kill - article of the day today, no less

--BrokenSphere 16:47, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

re. Triple Crown

Sorry about that, just wanted to save you the trouble. If you like, I can hand out the awards on your behalf, otherwise I don't think they should come and collect them... Dihydrogen Monoxide 07:56, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Sure, if you like. Usually I do all the reviews myself, so it's kind of odd to be discussing this. But you're familiar enough with this and I trust your integrity. Could you route future noms through my user talk? Thanks, Durova 07:59, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

OK, will do (in the future). I need to run now, could you please dish out the crowns? Thanks, Dihydrogen Monoxide 08:08, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

There's one problem: both you and RaNdOm26 are claiming credit for the same DYK. Normally DYKs go to just one person. If either of you have a spare we could sort that out. I'll wait for your reply. Durova 08:11, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm claiming Transfusion (EP), he's got Here I Am (Natalie Gauci song) (I have it for my Napolean TC because we both expanded on it - it can be removed from there if necessary). Dihydrogen Monoxide 08:15, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Okay, we can sort that out. I'm doing some Commons ambassador work ATM so I'll probably handle this tomorrow (it's late night in my time zone). Durova 08:29, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Dihydrogen, why do you say you expanded the article by yourself? I think you expanded like about one or two sentences....??? RaNdOm26 14:35, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Smile

I was busy with personal fmaily business (my dying mother), and noticed just now that you were under quite a series of attacks. Smile and don't get stressed. Bearian 17:36, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Hoffman

You proposed article parole, but I think it is actually called article probation. I've taken the liberty of changing that, so correct me if I erred. - Jehochman 18:09, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Crown Jewels

I believe I have qualified for the upgrade to the Imperial Triple Crown Jewels:

• DYK: Pennsylvania Ministerium, Diodore of Tarsus
• GA: Pennsylvania Ministerium, Mother Teresa
• FA: Maximus the Confessor, Gregory of Nazianzus

Thanks. Pastordavid 19:10, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Troubles they come, and troubles they go.

RMHED has smiled at you! Smiles promote WikiLove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Spread the WikiLove by smiling at someone else, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past or a good friend. Happy editing!
Smile at others by adding {{subst:Smile}} to their talk page with a friendly message.

Remember what dear old Oscar said, "There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about. " RMHED 20:48, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

My wallpaper and I are having a duel to the death. :) Durova 21:40, 4 December 2007 (UTC)