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The lead

I have recently added material that is reliably sourced and neutral to the Persian Gulf article. Pejman.azadi and a few others have engaged in a tag team effort to undo my edits. I agree that the Persian Gulf is the correct name. However, it is a fact that some people (mostly Arabs) use Arabian Gulf. I have provided several very reliable sources for this. I do not sanction the usage of "Arabian Gulf." Yet, we must portray this fact. Indeed, the fact is portrayed in the article, but not in the lead. Per WP:LEAD, it must be presented in the lead as well. There was a pseudo compromise. The so-called "compromise" did not establish consensus. Please see WP:CONSENSUS. "When consensus is referred to in Misplaced Pages discussion, it always means 'within the framework of established policy and practice'. Even a majority of a limited group of editors will almost never outweigh community consensus on a wider scale, as documented within policies." The compromise was against Misplaced Pages guidelines, specifically WP:LEAD.--Agha Nader (talk) 20:49, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Agha Nader that the name Persian Gulf is correct. I also know that this lead was a cause of a lot of headaches some months back! I have reworded Agha Nader's lead in order to appease Pejman.Azadi and some others. It's just a rehash of what's written here - That Arabs call it the "Arabian Gulf". --Persan en Japon (talk) 10:31, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

It's funny that some Arabs, make Persian IDs on wikipedia, and try to suggest themselves as " rational Persians! " and proceed some of Arabian nationalistic, anti Persian thoughts. I think Persian civilization has been humane enough not to be mocked by these childish tricks. 195.146.47.134 (talk) 21:25, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Were you referring to me? I'm Persian and this whole Arabian Gulf issue causes me a lot of anger as well. However, I realized that the best way to fight it is to accept that Arabs call it another name, but educate others as to why using the Arabic term is incorrect. This is a better way to protect the name Persian Gulf than hiding the fact that Arabs call it something else. --Persan en Japon (talk) 09:46, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I added the word controversially in the lead as a way to find a common ground between the opposing sides. Let's be fair: Arabs call it the Arabian Gulf, so it should be mentioned. However, I think that the Arabic term is controversial because it was never approved by the United Nations or all the countries which border the Gulf. Furthermore, the term Arabian Gulf began to be used in modern times from the 1960s because of political reasons.

I definitely agree. The term Arabian Gulf, no matter how 'wrong', 'illegal', or repulsive to some editors, must be included in the lead. Please see WP:LEAD. The lead would be misleading if it just mentioned the Persian Gulf. This is because there is insurmountable evidence, by the most reliable of sources, that some people use the term Arabian Gulf.--Agha Nader (talk) 06:05, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

• Adding the sentence "Some refer to the gulf as the Arabian Gulf or simply as The Gulf",violates the WP:LEAD.
  "briefly describing its notable controversies" means according to "verifiability and other policies",one may mention new nationalistic Arabian name-changing policy in the lead by briefly referring to the "Naming dispute" section ,but the sentence "Some call it ..." is not showing controversy , and is weighting the pseudo-name near-equal the legitimate name in the important lead section. --Alborz Fallah (talk) 08:42, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

If the sentence "This body of water is sometimes controversially referred to as the Arabian Gulf by Arabs", is going to be inserted in the lead ,then the correct form should be something like this :"Although "Persian gulf" is the established international name , but sometimes controversially referred to as the Arabian Gulf by Arabs".--Alborz Fallah (talk) 08:54, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Indian Ocean: Can we at least get the geographical aspect of the lead corrected before we debate the proper lead? As I mentioned before, the Persian Gulf is referred to as an "arm" or "extension" of the Arabian Sea, not the Indian Ocean. Here are two examples from different encyclopedias: Encarta and Columbia encyclopedias. Can the person who locked this change this first? --Persan en Japon (talk) 09:46, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't think the " Arabian sea" or the "Indian Ocean" is the main topic of the debate.The real contravery is "how to mention the new naming policy of some Arabian goverments in the lead of this article".If you want to change the Indian Ocean , then do it! No one is against that!--Alborz Fallah (talk) 09:54, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I cannot change it as it's locked! Can the person who locked it, fix that part? --Persan en Japon (talk) 11:27, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Alborz Fallah, I would not object to this "Although 'Persian Gulf' is the established international name , it is sometimes controversially referred to as the Arabian Gulf by Arabs".--Agha Nader (talk) 14:38, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Me neither: Shall we vote on it? --Persan en Japon (talk) 16:34, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

I said "If the sentence is going to be inserted in the lead, then it shall like ..." then if there is a vote, then first it maybe about the necessity of mentioning it in the lead, then about the how to mention it! Indeed when you write "a few others have engaged in a tag team effort to undo my edits", I was just defending my edit and not proposing a vote. --Alborz Fallah (talk) 08:32, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

• As I explained to Agha Nader, naming issue is already discussed in detail within the article's body, it doesn't belong in the lead. Besides the fact that the name "Arabian Gulf" is not a common name in English, and therefore not covered by WP:lead of the English Wiipedia, placing the controversy in the lead, will only make the article unstable and volatile with both sides trying to add and remove their POVs to and from it. Trust me, it will be a never-ending source of edit-waring and hostility, it's simply not worth it. The current version had broad consensus of both sides and had made the article calm and stable since July, lets keep it that way for the sake of article. AlexanderPar (talk) 18:25, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Consensus can change. Plus, the old compromise was in violation of WP:CONSENSUS. This is because the compromise created a lead that was contrary to the guidelines set by WP:LEAD. For instance, WP:LEAD states "The lead should... briefly describing its notable controversies, if there are any." I have provided sources that prove that some Arabs use the term Arabian Gulf. In addition, there are multitudes of sources that prove there is controversy over the alternate usage. Moreover, the controversy inherently manifested itself in the debates that were held before. Finally, I do not fear the "never-ending source of edit-waring and hostility" that will arise from having a legitimate article. We will not compromise the quality of the article because some editors are disruptive.--Agha Nader (talk) 18:46, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

• Basically, I agree with AlexanderPar. We are going over and over on the same issue which we got a comprimise at. Seems everything being said here has already been said many times (see old talks) and got similar answers, still some feel reviewing it helps, so here is my 2 cents. Yes, for all reasons Agha Nader say we should mention in the article that some people call it other names than Persian Gulf, we respect those poeple and with proper references we will mention that in the article (as already had been mentioned), feel free to enhance that part. However as said many times before and now by AlexanderPar, that doesn't need to go into the 'Lead'. Adding to AlexanderPar's point, it is also WP:Undue weight and bringing the naming dispute to the Lead is disruptive.Farmanesh (talk) 19:19, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

• If I might add a comment, it would appear that while there is some agreement as to an alternate statement in the Lead which notes that the Persian Gulf is also referred to as the Arabian Gulf (mostly within SA), there appears to be some debate as to whether it belongs in the Lead. Is the naming discrepancy discussed within the body of the article? - Arcayne () 20:38, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes it is included in the body. --Agha Nader (talk) 00:19, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

• I also agree with AlexanderPar and Farmanesh. This issue was discussed extensively and agreed that the name translated from Arabic would not appear in the lead for the English version of the article. That name in English is a literal translation of the name created recently in Arabic which is not relevant in the English language and would be a case of WP:Undue weight. ObserverToSee (talk) 02:26, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

We are not going to exclude it from the lead just because it was agreed upon. According to WP:CONSENSUS, "When consensus is referred to in Misplaced Pages discussion, it always means 'within the framework of established policy and practice'. Even a majority of a limited group of editors will almost never outweigh community consensus on a wider scale, as documented within policies." Quite simply, your compromise was invalid. It was in violation of the WP:LEAD, and established guideline and practice of Misplaced Pages. By the way, there was absolutely no rational reason to exclude the words "Arabian Gulf" from the lead while including it in the body (except of course to attempt to hide it). --Agha Nader (talk) 00:27, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

and what is your answer to WP:Undue weight?Farmanesh (talk) 02:42, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Farmanesh jan, I am not trying to add 'Some people believe that correct name is Arabian Gulf.' That is a minority view. What I propose adding is something to the effect of "This body of water is sometimes controversially referred to as the Arabian Gulf by Arabs, or simply as The Gulf." Virtually everybody agrees that it "is sometimes controversially referred to as the Arabian Gulf by Arabs." It most certainly is not the minority view that "is sometimes controversially referred to as the Arabian Gulf by Arabs." Therefore, WP:Undue weight does not apply (since it only refers to fringe views). --Agha Nader (talk) 03:35, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

To quote from WP:Undue weight: "Undue weight applies to more than just viewpoints. Just as giving undue weight to a viewpoint is not neutral, so is giving undue weight to other verifiable and sourced statements. An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. Note that undue weight can be given in several ways, including, but not limited to, depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, and juxtaposition of statements.". I submit that what you're proposing does constitute a case of WP:Undue weight. As a very small demonstration of the point; there are 53 or so other language versions for the Persian Gulf article on WikiPedia. There are (almost) no references to the Arabic name in any of them except for the Arabic version. Out of the entire population of the planet, the Arabic name is used by a very small percentage. To give the Arabic name prominence in the lead of the English version of this article constitutes WP:Undue weight. Why should we do this? Because a very small minority uses the name in Arabic and strives to legitimize it in English? ObserverToSee (talk) 19:00, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I am happy that you have exposed your motives. You admitted that you trying to keep the Arabian Gulf from becoming legitimate in English. It is not our job to 'protect the true name.' Your evidence--if we can call it that-- of it being undue is extremely lousy. By the way, almost every person agrees that it "is sometimes controversially referred to as the Arabian Gulf by Arabs." That is a majority view, not a fringe view.--Agha Nader (talk) 22:32, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I have to admit, I did not expect this type of response from you. You are totally ignoring the fact that looking at the total population of the planet, it is a very small minority that uses the Arabic name for the Persian Gulf. Why are you ignoring that when determining if WP:Undue weight is applicable here? Regardless of what you think you've determined as my motive for involvement here, that does not change the facts. WikiPedia is here to promote truth and neutral point of view. As quoted above, giving prominence to a name promoted by a very small minority is WP:Undue weight. It doesn't matter if all of us agree that this small minority uses the Arabic name. The fact that the minority is very small is what makes the difference. Surely you can see that if your own motives are pure. ObserverToSee (talk) 23:02, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

It is not undue weight to say that it "is sometimes controversially referred to as the Arabian Gulf by Arabs." Even if only a tiny minority uses the name Arabian Gulf, it would not be undue weight to mention that they do. You see? We are not adding that some believe that the real, correct, 'true' name is Arabian Gulf. We are just saying that some Arabs call it the Arabian Gulf, and that is a fact held by the majority. --Agha Nader (talk) 23:41, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

By putting it in the lead, you would be providing a name used by a very small minority "prominence" which is where the WP:Undue weight comes in. No one, at this time is arguing that the name should not appear in the body where it is not as prominent, although a case can be made for that as well given the letter of WP:Undue weight. The lead as it currently stands provides for the necessary neutrality. ObserverToSee (talk) 00:11, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

WP:Undue weight does not apply. It only applies to contentious minority views. What I wish to add is a not a minority view. You seem to think that you can censor the 'false name' by excluding its utterance. --Agha Nader (talk) 00:17, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

The wisdom of WP:Undue weight is very apparent here. Regardless of how you choose to apply it, giving "prominence" to the name used by a very small minority in the lead, violates the neutrality. Indeed, if other sources for knowledge had such a wise policy or guideline in place, this would not be an issue anywhere. ObserverToSee (talk) 00:31, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Prove that it is giving prominence to the term Arabian Gulf. It is saying that it is controversially used. By the way, are you a sockpuppet?--Agha Nader (talk) 00:34, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Interesting that you would ask me if I am a sockpuppet. It reminds me of another editor who asked if I was editing under another name when I first started participating here. I choose to ignore this striking similarity both in your arguments and methods and not resort to what you've decided to do. I'm not sure if you've actually read everything in the above discussions before deciding our compromise was not valid. I think you owe it to yourself and everyone else here to do so. It's very clear that putting the Arabic name in the lead is providing it additional prominence resulting in WP:Undue weight. ObserverToSee (talk) 00:46, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Agha Nader, you have been warned repeatedly here and on other article discussion pages to find some more lasting method by which to restrain your incivil tendencies. Asking someone if they are a sock-puppet is both a personal attack and an uncivil thing to ask. If you think someone is a sock-puppet, use WP:SPP and WP:RFCU to verify one way or the other, and let an admin do the accusing. You have been here long enough to know the protocol. Statements like those do not promote a professional editing atmosphere. - Arcayne () 01:19, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

You are wikistalking.--Agha Nader (talk) 01:50, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Er, did you just miss that previous post about not making personal attacks? this page has been watchlisted for over a year. - Arcayne () 02:23, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

You are stalking, I have reported you. Do you have anything to say about the current discussion?--Agha Nader (talk) 02:36, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Nothing I haven't already said. Please let me know where this "report" is located. - Arcayne () 03:28, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

• User:Agha Nader you started changing a topic with long discussed comprimise and as we respected you and your point of view we did engage in a civil talk. While I didn't agree with your points but saw the merit of it and answered to it. However in above talks you have changed from being a person who engages in civil dialouge to one who attackes personally and also doesn't assume good faith by calling people sock-puppet. I think by this manner you just reduced our civil disscusion to an unacceptable level. Also you did a disservice to your own claims. I think we are done by current discussion as you ran out of legitimate reasoning. Farmanesh (talk) 05:04, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

There is absolutely nothing uncivil about anything I have said. I asked Observer if he was a sock. I have suspicions that he is, but I have not accused him of it (this is because I assumed good faith). It is you who has "ran out of legitimate reasoning." For it is you who has made several baseless arguments that I have responded to. First you say there was consensus (I proved that the compromise was in violation of WP:LEAD and WP:CONSENSUS. Then you said it was undue weight (I rebutted by saying that no evidence has been provided by that it is a marginal view that some people controversially use the term Arabian Gulf). Of course, you did not respond to my rebuttals (you ignored them and repeated yourself). Sure, I directed one of my posts to Arcayne but that is because he has stalked me. --Agha Nader (talk) 05:29, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

So Nader, are you suggesting that asking Observer if he is a sock is not as uncivil as if you shouted it from the rooftops? So, if I asked if you were a thief because your behavior 'reminded' me of one, the accusation in and of itself could not be considered uncivil or a personal attack? Let's not split hairs. If you want to accuse someone of bad behavior, there are places to do so - not in the article discussion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arcayne (talk • contribs) 07:15, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

What am I missing here?! Where has Farmanesh been rebutted by you and repeated himself? If we're reading the same talk page, it seems that it is you, Agha Nader, who's repeating and ignoring valid points about WP:Undue weight and insisting that additional prominence be given to a name that is used by a very small minority. Resorting to baseless insinuations does not strengthen your argument. Repeating your insinuation and stating your suspicion openly amounts to an accusation. Again, I choose not to do the same for you as I do not wish to be uncivil. The lead of this article is currently neutral as it is supposed to be. ObserverToSee (talk) 06:13, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

• I just had a first look at this page and was shocked by the lack of information. Note from WP:No Angry Mastodons-"always bear the big picture in mind: we're here to provide information for nonspecialists." There are (unfortunately!) still millions of people in the world who are confused about the most basic ethnic divisions in the Middle East, e.g., the difference between Persians and Arabs. Such people might come to this article hoping to figure out some of that history, but because of this intense dispute about a very small matter of the presentation of names in the lead, they will not learn anything. I would just call upon all parties to reach SOME consensus -- even if you're not 100% happy with it -- as quickly as possible so this article can be unlocked and expanded. User:snarkhunter22

I completely agree with you, very correct. This article have had this same dispute for much longer before the first time I ever saw this article and seemingly it will continue to face it. We have reached consensus as you propose before after very long discussion with involvment of many editors which kept the article peaceful, stable and unlocked for long time. Now someone again started the discussion (actually first unilaterally made the changes s/he liked and only later started to talk about it). We have properly responded to him/her and considered his/her points.

I think it is time for an administrator to have a look at this talk and unlock the page. Farmanesh 22:44, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I have enumerated to Farmanesh several reasons as to why undue weight does not apply. Unfortunately she ignored them. So I will present further evidence to her. If scholarly sources use the term Arabian Gulf in addition to (or in lieu of) Persian Gulf, then there is more than a marginal minority who use the term. Farmanesh claims that the mere utterance of Arabian Gulf is in violation of undue weight. She equates the proposed addition of material that claims that it is "controversially referred to as the Arabian Gulf by some Arabs," to material (which I do not propose) that claims the Arabian Gulf is an alternate name used by many. For it is an universally accepted fact that it is "controversially referred to as the Arabian Gulf by some Arabs." If a bunch of academic sources feel it is necessary to mention the conflict, then surely it isn't undue weight for Misplaced Pages to do so as well. And of course, the lead should summarize the article.

• National Geographic writes "Historically and most commonly known as the Persian Gulf, this body of water is referred to by some as the Arabian Gulf" . Why would National Geographic write that if it is is a fringe view?
• This article discusses the controversy .
• Quite frankly, this notable article uses the term Arabian Gulf. .
• Another example
• Another scholarly work that uses Arabian Gulf

The undue weight argument is inherently flawed anyway. If it is notable enough to bear a section in the article it should be in the lead by WP:LEAD. Even works that aren't necessarily focused upon the name conflict, they mention that the Arabian Gulf is used by some. That demonstrates that it isn't undue weight to mention the Arabian Gulf.--Agha Nader 07:32, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

What you are saying here is that there are some cases who use other names than Persian Gulf, well that is not disputed. However when you give 5 cases of usage of other names, there are millions of case for usage of Persian Gulf and thats where WP:Undue weight applies.

However what I said now and what you are saying are not adding anything to this discussion, these have been extensively discussed before. The reason wwe are here to discuss again is to see if there is any new reasons to change the comprimise which apparently there is none. That is why I propose admins to look to our discussion and unlock the article.

If you happen to bring any new points, we would be happy to discuss more. Otherwise we are just repeating ourselves and also many others before us.Farmanesh 22:29, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

The Lead (arbitrary break)

Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but as I see it, these are the main points of the discussion thus far:

1. the Persian Gulf is the more common term for the body of water in question;

2. the body of water is also referred to as the Arabian Gulf (whether this is an occurrence solely within SA needs to be cited);

3. the naming discrepancy is discussed within the body of the article;

4. We have citations for both uses;

5. the article for the Arabian Gulf notes the Persian Gulf naming dispute as well as Red Sea;

It seems rather clear that the argument about this is pointless. Governments have been bickering about this for at least a century and been trying to revise maps for nearly that long. Redirects may be a eventual solution, merging the data from the Arabian Gulf into the main article for the Persian Gulf, though I can foresee problems with doing something similar with the Red Sea article. For now, however, is there something with noting in the Lead something similar to this:

(existing version) The Persian Gulf, in the Southwest Asian region, is an extension of the Indian Ocean located between Iran and the Arabian Peninsula.

(proposed version) The Persian Gulf (also called the Arabian Gulf and the Red Sea), located in the Southwest Asian region, is an extension of the Indian Ocean located between Iran and the Arabian Peninsula.

- Arcayne () 09:20, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

In proposed version, note that the red Sea has been sometimes called "Arabian Gulf" and not the Persian gulf(as the Read Sea)!--Alborz Fallah 09:48, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Right, but all three terms refer to the same body of water, correct? - Arcayne () 11:41, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

No my freind, Red Sea is completly different than Persian Gulf. Red Sea has been called Arabian Gulf in few historical case but it has nothing to do with Persian Gulf.

Beside Red Sea mistake, your proposal has the WP:Undue weight problem which has been discussed many times before and again in some extent now.Farmanesh 22:34, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

• It has been argued that WP:Undue weight does not apply here. In fact it applies very strongly as the letter of this policy/guideline is very clear that a view held by a tiny minority can not be provided undue prominence. This can not be ignored. Quoting further from WP:Undue weight: "We should not attempt to represent a dispute as if a view held by a small minority deserved as much attention as a majority view. Views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views". The fact that a very tiny minority of the world population has the view that the Persian Gulf has an alternate name can not be disputed and everyone agrees. It has been suggested that this article is in violation of WP:Lead. If it is, it is perhaps because undue prominence has been given to a view of a tiny minority by including a detailed description of the naming dispute in the main article. I think we should follow as noted above and have the naming dispute presented in its own section only and reference Persian_Gulf_naming_dispute only. Further, National Geographic may not have the same properly defined policies/guidelines such as WP:Undue weight where they can be influenced by small minorities through various means of pressure. The lead should not change and if anything, the section for the naming dispute needs to be redone to follow WikiPedia rules such as WP:Undue weight. Thankfully, this is WikiPedia and WikiPedia rules prevail. ObserverToSee 21:42, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Thankfully, this is Misplaced Pages, and not ObserverToSee-Land where you can ignore facts. I absolutely love how you provide no evidence that it is a fringe view and ignore the plethora of scholarly works that show that it is not.--Agha Nader 22:51, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Why a tint of incivility again? Why do you have to resort to this? The points are very clear. They can't be ignored. As quoted, a tiny minority's point of view can not be given prominence. Justifiably and wisely so that the situation we have now in other sources of knowledge doesn't arise here in WikiPedia. We can't ignore this and we all should strive to keep this article neutral regardless of any personal feelings. ObserverToSee 23:03, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

What incivility? Show me evidence that it is a fringe view.--Agha Nader 23:16, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

I've already explained this several times. I'll do it yet again. Please don't continue to ignore this. What you have been repeating about a large number believing that Arabs call the Persian Gulf by an alternate name is not relevant with regard to WP:Undue weight. The fact that Arabs are a very small minority who call the Persian Gulf with an alternate name is what makes the difference and makes it a view of a tiny minority. What needs to be proven here? ObserverToSee 02:09, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

The scholarly articles I sourced are not Arab. --Agha Nader 02:18, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Consensus has been made between various users. Inserting Arabian Gulf means insering Persian Gulf in Arabic publications as well as the fact that the naming was political. The issue has been discussed already. Also please mind personal attacks. "Thankfully, this is Misplaced Pages, and not ObserverToSee-Land " is considered a personal attack. --alidoostzadeh 02:31, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

You have just violated WP:AGF. For I did not attack Observer. You assumed this. I reminded him that this is an encyclopedia, and his assertions are meaningless unless they are backed by evidence. I also find this statement to be amusing "The issue has been discussed already." As if consensus can't change! I quote WP:CONSENSUS, "Consensus is not immutable. It is reasonable, and sometimes necessary, for the community to change its mind." Moreover, this issue is different than the previous discussion because I propose adding that it is controversially referred to as the Arabian Gulf: an important distinction.--Agha Nader 03:14, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Agha Nader, it looks like you have totally ignored the point again. What point is there in the discussion then? WP:Undue weight applies here. It doesn't matter if there are articles out there that say Arabs use an alternate name for the Persian Gulf. What matters is that Arabs are a very small minority in using the alternate name for the Persian Gulf. Very simple. ObserverToSee 04:41, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Clearly, Arabs aren't the only ones who use the name Arabian Gulf. Guess what? I'll let you in on a little secret. Some scholars use it too! What a shock! I found these secret articles:

• This article discusses the controversy .
• Quite frankly, this notable article uses the term Arabian Gulf. .
• Another example
• Another scholarly work that uses Arabian Gulf

Don't tell anyone about them. We'll just ignore them. --Agha Nader 04:47, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Again and again, just b/c a limited number of articles use it, it should be mentioned in the article but as they are very limited cases (compare to many many who use Persian Gulf) it would be WP:Undue weight to have it in the lead.

Even one of the links you gave yourself up there which is an encyclopedia article, mention it in the body of the article and leaves it out of the lead section. At least please accept the encyclopedic standard of the link you yourself provide to us! Farmanesh 04:56, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Limited eh? How many do you need? I love how you skew the facts! That source has only a one sentence lead! In the second sentence it describes the controversy. Oh, Farmanesh, have you stooped to this low? Are you willing to mislead your fellow editors?--Agha Nader 05:10, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Agha Nader your condescending tone is uncivil. Your statements; "Guess what? I'll let you in on a little secret." and "What a shock!" are not the type of things someone says in a civil constructive discussion. Regardless, again, it doesn't matter how many people you find who say Arabs refer to the Persian Gulf with an alternate name or you find some scholars that refer to the name, in the total number of the planet's population, those who call the Persian Gulf by the alternate name are a very small minority. Again, it's very simply. Please stop ignoring this and respond with civility when you do. ObserverToSee 05:34, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

My tone was jokey if anything. Far from hostile, buddy. What am I supposed to respond to? Your unsourced assertions? The fact is that Misplaced Pages has to represent a world view. And there are people who use Arabian Gulf. It would be helpful to note this fact in the lead. Any how, your undue weight argument is flawed as I noted above.--Agha Nader 06:51, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't know where you got the idea that you and I were on joking terms here about this subject. Addressing me as "buddy" is not appropriate either. WP:Undue weight is the reason why what you are proposing should not be done. The neutrality of the article should not be compromised. Unless of course, you are contending that the Arab point of view is anything but a very small minority point of view considering the entire world's population. Your arguments don't hold any water for WikiPedia unless you can make a valid case that the above is not true. ObserverToSee 07:23, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I don’t know how to react to that kind of hysteria. That is such a stretch that I can’t respond to it. I’m going to use humor. And all I can say is to lighten up. I’m going to continue to use humor. I do not agree "that the Arab point of view is anything but a very small minority." Why cant we be friends, why cant we be friends, why cant we be friends?--Agha Nader 01:11, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

It's easy to react -- with civility. Friendship does require mutual respect. You have not shown much of it and have even claimed that you have "exposed" me in your talk page (summary comment). Humorous indeed! Possible Hysteria? We can agree to disagree, but I don't understand your refusal to accept a simple fact! ObserverToSee 02:06, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I am glad that you see, and appreciate, the humor now, pal. I find your understanding of undue weight misguided. You see, 300 million Arabs, does not represent a "very small minority." In fact, they may represent a majority of the relevant population.--Agha Nader 03:11, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Define what you see as a "very small minority". 30%? 20%? Are you contending that all 300 mill Arabs live by the Persian Gulf and that all of them use the alternate name? Where do you come up with the 300 mill figure? "Relevant population" is the entire worlds population by the way not just those around the Persian Gulf. ObserverToSee 03:42, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Agha Nader: I cannot log-in to the jstor.org website that you provided. I don't doubt that they utilize the term Arabian Gulf. However, were these articles written by Arabs? Foreigners who reside in Arabic countries who are forced to use the term Arabian Gulf in their scholarly work? It's worth noting that in most Arabic countries, when a scholarly paper/document/book/magazine is to be published, the term Persian Gulf cannot be used. --Persan en Japon 14:50, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Agha Nader: The source you have given us from www.encyclopedia.com as a support to your claim does have a lead. The lead is clearly seperated from the other paragraphs with Bold titling. One long sentence or 2 doesn't make the difference, there is a lead and then there is a body of article. In the lead they only use Persian Gulf and in the body of article, in the section titled "Physical Geography" and not in the lead, they mention other names. It is the encyclpedic way to do it, the same as we have done here in our longer article on the same subject. I invite you to put your mind-gaurd away for a minute and look to the source you gave us again, judge for yourself.

On your personal attacks which you called them "jokey", few paragraphs before you used similar tone and you saw the negetive reaction of many editors (have another look), maybe first time it was "jokey", but continueing it may not be considered proper. Please reconsider.Farmanesh 15:08, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

The Lead (arbitrary break 2)

Breaking away from the incivility from a user or two which is muddying up the situation, I was wondering if someone could explain how using Persian Gulf (also referred to some as the Arabian Gulf) violates the undue weight part of the Neutrality policy of Misplaced Pages.
If the matter is hotly contested (there is an actual article on this matter within Misplaced Pages), it therefore clearly indicates that inclusion is noteworthy.
If more than a very small group of people claim the name, then it is not undue weight.
If both historical and contemporary documents utilize both terms, it is not undue weight to use both terms, and in fact is encyclopedic to include both.
Without rancor or personal attacks or incivility, please explain why these shouldn't be included. - Arcayne () 20:16, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure if anyone who believes the alternate name should not be in the lead has displayed any of the rancor, personal attacks or incivility in this recent discussion. Please let us know which part you view as such from this side! The point that the alternate name used by a very small minority (Arabs) with respect to the entire world population should not be provided prominence due to WP:Undue weight has been extensively discussed above several times. I don't want to be a further participant in "muddying up" effort that you have alluded to. I have included 2 quotes from WP:Undue weight in bold above that is totally relevant to this discussion and spell out why. Please scroll up and see. I'll be happy to repeat yet again, if you wish. Regards ObserverToSee 22:20, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Stop acting like Arabs are the only ones who use the term Arabian Gulf. There are plenty of scholars who use it and I have quoted them. There are over 300 million Arabs in this world! You act as if they are a handful of people (" very small minority (Arabs)"). 300 million is very small? If we consider relevance to the Persian Gulf, they would be a majority! After all, how relevant are Croatians to the Persian Gulf, when compared to Arabs? No matter, Misplaced Pages must present a world view. Like it or not, Arabs do in habit this world. --Agha Nader 22:45, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

What part of 'keep it civil' was unclear? Be professional and polite, or begone. While Nader has interacted rather poorly with his fellow editors in introducing this viewpoint, I agree that adding the Arabian Gulf alternate naming does not violate Undue weight. As I noted before, the (Real Life) naming convention dispute has been going on quite some time, and because of which, 'Arabian Gulf' is notable, and therefore not a violation of Undue weight. In fact, failing to include it could easily be considered a violation of the neutrality policy, as more than just the 24 million folk who populate S.A. use the term.

However, as there seems to be considerable rancor regarding this matter, I strongly suggest that someone seek admin assistance in this matter, or a Request for Comment. That way, someone neutral in the matter can weigh in and judge the arguments solely upon the arguments (though incivility will bring some significantly harsh penalties to those who fail to contribute to the RfC civilly). - Arcayne () 23:00, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

You are the uncivil one. For it is you who makes ill-considered accusations and threats. I find "What part of 'keep it civil' was unclear?" to be particularly rude. There was not a single uncivil sentence in my response. But, I do agree that "failing to include it could easily be considered a violation of the neutrality policy."--Agha Nader 23:24, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Whenever you are uncivil you are going to get called on it. You will either learn, or get blocked. There isn;t a third choice. You've stated your viewpoint, now let others weighing on the naming thing. - Arcayne () 23:47, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Ditto.--Agha Nader 00:09, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Agha Nader: I cannot log-in to the jstor.org website that you provided. I don't doubt that they utilize the term Arabian Gulf. However, were these articles written by Arabs? Foreigners who reside in Arabic countries who are forced to use the term Arabian Gulf in their scholarly work? It's worth noting that in most Arabic countries, when a scholarly paper/document/book/magazine is to be published, the term Persian Gulf cannot be used. --Persan en Japon 00:56, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't think your question is terribly relevant. I will indulge your curiosity though. The authors have 'Western' names and the articles are published in the West. For instance, by D.T. Potts published at Oxford.--Agha Nader 03:15, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

All questions as they relate to the article are relevant, Nader. Please remember that, and assume good faith on the part of your equals. He has noted a problem with J-Stor articles, which aren't really accessible to those without scholarly article access. It is verifiable, but only barely. Perhaps the substitution of another source more readily viewable would be helpful.

As for who wrote the article, their nationality doesn't matter, unless they are writing propaganda pieces, which, quite simply, wouldn't make it into J-Stor. Persan, you noted that scholars publishing in SA or other Arab-based countries have to alter their work to reflect Arabian Gulf instead of Persian Gulf. While I think I have heard something similar while interning at State, could you provide a citation reflecting that claim, please? Either way, the term PersianArabian Gulf is used, though not as much, outside of Arab countries. - Arcayne () 03:43, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Enumerate exactly how I failed to assume good faith. Refrain from making ill-considered insinuations such as "assume good faith on the part of your equals." I assumed nothing. I merely was noting that them being Arab or not (which they aren't) is not terribly relevant. I will not tolerate these insinuations and false accusations.--Agha Nader 04:20, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Arcayne, I think this is a mistype? "the term Persian Gulf is used, though not as much, outside of Arab countries". Persian Gulf is used by the entire world (except for some in Turkey and most Arab states). Every other language refers to the Persian Gulf as such. Only a small minority has an alternate name that is used. There are many sources to reference where the name "Persian Gulf" has been outlawed in the Persian Gulf Arab states, for political reasons to force the use of the alternate name. I'm sure Persan will provide you with some. Regards ObserverToSee 04:27, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

(outdent)Yes, it is a mistype - thanks for pointing it out; I've struck through the mistake and correctly added the correct term of Arabian Gulf. I think its best to avoid the nationality/partisan issue that tends to plague these topics; after all, they can't even agree on it in the real world! The simple fact is that the Persian Gulf is also referred to as the Arabian Gulf. This contrariness regarding the naming is mentioned within the text, and since the Lead is an overview of the article, it needs to be noted. For the reasons I mentioned above, I think we have to include it, or run the risk of marginalizing the fact that an alternate name in fact exists, and run into neutrality issues. Again, I don't doubt Persan, but if he finds some sources in English (this being the English-language Wiki), we might want to consider adding those, both here and in the naming dispute article. Persan can get double the effect for his citation! lol! - Arcayne () 06:45, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Agha Nader: Actually, the place/article/funding/audience of research papers is relevant when it comes to issues such as this. This is because scholars write articles with an audience in mind or alter certain parts in order to appease those who fund them. While this can be seen as unscholarly, it is something that happens all the time. This is most likely with scholars who use the term Arabian Gulf - They are either funded by Arabs or write for an Arabic audience. As I have mentioned before, utilising the term Persian Gulf is banned in most Arabic countries especially around the Gulf. "American universities (in the Gulf) have dropped references to Persian Gulf in their teaching materials...(for)...adapting to the sensibilities of their hosts." --Persan en Japon 17:06, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Let's look at the example you give: Professor D.T. Potts. He is an American professor residing in Sydney whose research area focuses on archaeology and early history of the Near East including Iran, Mesopotamia, The Arabian Peninsla and the Indo-Iranian borderlands. From 1986-1998 he was based in the United Arab Emirates doing his field research. In 1998, he published a book for the Government of Sharjah and in 2003 he edited a book for the Abu Dhabi Ministry of Information. He got funding from the UAE government, and that's why he utilised the term Arabian Gulf. However, if you look at his personal website he mentions that one of his current project is "Studies on the Persian Gulf". He only used the term Arabian Gulf because he got funding from Arabs or was writing for an Arab audience. --Persan en Japon 17:06, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Your arguments are not proven by the 'sources' you use... at all. You only have two 'sources', which you cite repeatedly. There is no evidence that you have presented supporting the notion that this particular article was written to comply with the supposed laws. Arguments that are not proven by your assessment are "and that's why he utilised the term Arabian Gulf" and "He only used the term Arabian Gulf because he got funding from Arabs or was writing for an Arab audience." And those happen to be your only arguments! Either way it doesn't seem to affect the appropriateness of the disputed names being added to the lead. It reeks of conspiracy theory OR. There is no evidence (despite your useless links) that 'the Arabs coerce academia to use Arabian Gulf.' Although, when it comes to creativity, I give you a check plus plus.--Agha Nader (talk) 05:36, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I was asked to provide sources for my claims. I did. At least my sources can be accessed by all, unlike yours which cannot! Furthermore, you called my links useless. I guess only your sources (which cannot be accessed by anyone but you) are useful? In any case, the article that I provided says that American universities in the Gulf have dropped references to the Persian Gulf. Professor Potts' own website uses the term Persian Gulf. How is that useless? You were the one who mentioned D.T. Potts uses the term Arabian Gulf. Why would he switch back and forth unless he was writing for different audiences? Finally, what I have written is revelant to the lead because you argued that non-Arabs also utilise the term Arabian Gulf. I've been trying to show that they only do it because they are forced to do so! I still think that the lead should say the term Arabian Gulf, but it should be mentioned that the term is controversial. --Persan en Japon (talk) 13:14, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Persan en japon, I appreciate you providing the citations I suggested, and I agree that they do show a pattern within some scholarly research funded by or taking place within the UAE. Were that all of it, I think an effective argument could consider the usage in the Lead to be UNDUE weight. However, the naming controversy (with all the attendant map and document revision and, in some cases outright forgery) has existed for over a century. for that reason alone it should be reflected that the body of water is known by an alternate name. I rather think we have to do this. Doing so conforms to the neutrality clause of Misplaced Pages, and has the side benefit of forcing us to do what the countries in question cannot seem to accomplish; it forces editors normally at nationalistic odds to work together in a common article for the common benefit of both. I think that calling it controversial should be limited to the body of the article. Please feel free to incorporate the citations you provided, as it is germane to the controversy.

Something else to consider here is whether the two articles should be merged and a redirect for the more common name, 'Persian Gulf' serve as the host article. Persian Gulf and Arabian Gulf are separate articles, and there is no doubt that some content forking is occurring, which we cannot allow to remain. Thoughts?- Arcayne () 14:20, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Agha Nader, "It reeks of conspiracy theory OR" and "Although, when it comes to creativity, I give you a check plus plus" display the condescending tone again as a response to a very valid post by Persan en japon. Are you assuming good faith? Or are you going to claim humor again?

All of these discussions are not relevant to the lead because regardless of how you choose to interpret or ignore WP:Undue weight, the wisdom of the policy/guideline stands clear. Paraphrasing part of it, the view of a very small minority should not be given prominence in terms of positioning or location. Putting the alternate name used by a very small minority in the lead will be a violation and compromise of the article's neutrality. Even if the maximum number of Arab population claimed by you is correct and provable, and all of them refer to the Persian Gulf by the alternate name (which they don't), the very small minority classification holds relative to the entire world's population. The lead of the article has been neutral since the compromise was reached several months ago and should remain that way. ObserverToSee (talk) 16:42, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

(outdent) Observer, if you find it difficult to respond to Agha Nader, respond to me instead. I've presented what I feel are clear, compelling reasons as to why the undue weight argument does not apply in this instance. As I feel that this is a significant content dispute, i would like to recommend that we file an Request for Comment on this matter, and have folk and admins not part of the article weigh in and help us define what needs or doesn't need to be in the article. - Arcayne () 22:45, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Arcayne, I have repeatedly responded to the point that WP:Undue weight does not apply here. It is relevant and very much applies here. Please see below as hopefully a final time that I've established this fact. Please feel free to initiate a Request for Comment if you still feel that is what is called for here. Regards ObserverToSee (talk) 17:59, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

As an outside observer....

I think the first paragraph should say, "It is sometimes called the Arabian Gulf but that name is not officially recognized and has been subject to dispute." WP:LEAD is crystal clear on this point: The major controversies should be summarized in the lead, and this is such a controversy that we have an article, Persian Gulf naming dispute, on it. Any attempt to suppress the dispute is seriously misguided and against the rules. MilesAgain (talk) 01:30, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I certainly agree.--Agha Nader (talk) 01:32, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

While Miles is quite new, he does make a sound point. - Arcayne () 08:05, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

It is clearly stated in WP:LEAD that it is not a "rule" as contended by MilesAgain. Quoted below from the actual article:

This page is considered a style guideline on Misplaced Pages. It is generally accepted among editors and is considered a standard that users should follow. However, it is not set in stone and should be treated with common sense and the occasional exception.

Furthermore WP:Undue weight is part of Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view which has the the following on the article:

This page documents an official policy on the English Misplaced Pages. It has wide acceptance among editors and is considered a standard that all users should follow.

There is no ambiguity here. WP:LEAD is a style guideline that provides for exceptions and WP:Undue weight is part of a policy that should be followed at all times. The arguments above are not taking this into consideration. This makes following the "policy" established in WP:Undue weight much more imperative than the "style guideline" discussed in WP:Lead.

It has been argued that WP:Undue weight does not apply here and I have repeatedly established why it does. I'll repeat again, hopefully one last time. Please consider the following quoted from WP:Undue weight:

NPOV says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a reliable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each. Now an important qualification: Articles that compare views should not give minority views as much or as detailed a description as more popular views, and may not include tiny-minority views at all.

and also the following:

We should not attempt to represent a dispute as if a view held by a small minority deserved as much attention as a majority view. Views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views. To give undue weight to a significant-minority view, or to include a tiny-minority view, might be misleading as to the shape of the dispute.

and:

Undue weight applies to more than just viewpoints. Just as giving undue weight to a viewpoint is not neutral, so is giving undue weight to other verifiable and sourced statements. An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject. Note that undue weight can be given in several ways, including, but not limited to, depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, and juxtaposition of statements.

These are clear. Regardless of how we try to force the fact that the term used as a translation from Arabic into English of a relatively recently fabricated name is anything but the view of a very small minority, it does not change the fact that it is in English. Arabian Gulf should not be given the prominence of being included in the lead. Again, because WP:Undue weight is a policy and WP:LEAD is a style guideline which is not set in stone as quoted above. We will be compromising the neutrality of the article by providing prominence to a name recently fabricated for political reasons. It is referenced in the body of the article and that is sufficient.

I have repeated enough about this subject and hope that I can stop here. I would hope that others can participate here as well and work and strive to keep the Persian Gulf article's lead neutral as it has been for the last several months based on a valid compromise between all those involved at the time. Regards ObserverToSee (talk) 17:55, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

How can WP:UNDUE apply here when the Persian Gulf naming dispute is considered such a major controversy that it has its own article? If you believe it is such a minor viewpoint that has lead to arrests and censorship affecting millions of people, then perhaps you ought to take that up and request Persian Gulf naming dispute be deleted. Which I note you have not done. So, you appear to be more interested in scrubbing the alternate name from this article than seeing that your concerns about undue weight are addressed. That appears like a transparent attempt to bring the censorship battle to Misplaced Pages. Here is another policy page for you: WP:NOT#BATTLEGROUND. Please read it. MilesAgain (talk) 19:16, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I fail to see why WP:NOT#BATTLEGROUND applies to me at all. Please read everything I've ever written carefully without prejudice. I could legitimately state that WP:NOT#BATTLEGROUND applies to some others (not all) in this discussion who wish to change the lead. I'm only opposed to the alternate name appearing in the lead because it provides undue weight through more prominence than to "scrubbing" it from this article as you're saying. Again, please read everything I've written if you're going to judge my position or make allegations. ObserverToSee (talk) 19:32, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I have carefully read what you have written. It was difficult to do so because you are claiming that a controversy so notable that it has its own lengthy article would be undue weight to be mentioned in the subject of the controversy. Where I come from, that is called bullshit, but here on Misplaced Pages it is called POV-pushing and it is a serious behavior issue. I agree with you that saying "also called the Arabian Gulf" would be undue weight, but what you are saying is that we shouldn't even mention the controversy, and that, my friend, is why I believe that you should not be allowed to edit. MilesAgain (talk) 19:51, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your eloquence! I only ask again for you to please read what I've written carefully. I'm not saying "we shouldn't even mention the controversy" as you're saying. I'm saying it should not be in the lead and having it in the main section of the article is sufficient. Call it what you wish. I've made valid points and I believe I've made them very effectively. ObserverToSee (talk) 20:20, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

I must ask you to remain civil. I sense sarcasm in your statement "Thank you for your eloquence!" Your argument is weak, poor, ineffective, and contradictory. You argue that 300 million people are a "small minority." You are wikilawyering and (ineffectively) twisting the meaning of undue weight. We can all appreciate MilesAgain's candor. I do not assert that you are "POV-pushing," but I can see why Miles would think you are.--Agha Nader (talk) 20:51, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

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