Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 21:13, 14 December 2007

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Disgusting

I would like to say that, as an educator, I find your recent comment which states that "it's a bad educator that bans their students from reading Misplaced Pages" is ignorant, rude, and disrespectful of people who actually know how to teach and have dedicated their lives to doing so. You may revel in amateurism, but professionals can see that this site is a terrible education resource. 1.33% of the Misplaced Pages is tagged for cleanup alone. It may be interesting as a general trivia site, but it is not something I would permit my students to learn from, whether you call me a 'bad educator' or no. 86.142.48.123 (talk) 16:30, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I was going to write something here but I was stuck in a meeting this morning for 3 hours *groan* I, too, have to disagree with your statement that Misplaced Pages should be accepted for schoolwork. You even included the caveat that only articles that are well-cited should be used. What teacher is going to want to analyze every Misplaced Pages article cited to see if it is acceptable for use? Also, many (if not all) elementary, middle or even high school students would not be able to determine if an article overall has good citations or not. Besides, it is generally accepted that terciary sources are not academically acceptable. I teach my students to use encyclopedias, Misplaced Pages included, only to begin their research when they have no clue about the topic. Also, there is nothing wrong with chaining to the sources that many entries cite like newspaper articles, books etc but use the information from the original... not the encyclopedia. I write you this as one who uses Misplaced Pages extensively (see my user page and WP:SUP) for my writing and Advanced EFL classes. Don't throw down the gauntlet to educators... you get the reaction like the one above. However, keep pushing to make Misplaced Pages better. You are right that students do use it, even if prohibited. Plus, it is proving to be a really excellent way to get students to write and research.Thelmadatter (talk) 19:05, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

The BBC article is entirely misleading about my remarks. My opinion on the proper use of Misplaced Pages in the educational environment has not changed one bit. I believe that our anonymous teacher, above, would respond as the audience did: strong applause. The key, of course, is to hear what I actually said, rather than this misreporting. I have asked the BBC to run a correction.

I believe that educators whose entire response to Misplaced Pages is to tell students not to look at it are in fact bad educators. Good teachers will understand that the right approach is to teach students about the weaknessess - and strengths - of Misplaced Pages. And to caution them that Misplaced Pages is not an acceptable source for an academic citation, any more than Britannica is. Thelmadatter, I agree absolutely with your remarks about the use of Misplaced Pages in the classroom, and based on reading what you have said, I suspect we would have to work really hard in a conversation to find any differences in our opinions at all on these matters.  :-) So, I plead innocent.--Jimbo Wales 19:18, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Hi Jimbo, I think that the point here is not whether or not Misplaced Pages can give students accurate facts, but the evidence for these facts. When I was a student and writing essays etc. I would always have to include a bibliography unless it was clearly stated that something was my own opinion. Misplaced Pages professes to be an encyclopedia yet "encyclopedia" actually translates from the Greek as "well rounded education". How much of a well rounded education can one get from a series of "facts" that are marked ? And before you say, adding that is not a caveat for you, since you say you are an encyclopedia. You mention about teaching the "weaknesses - and strengths - of Misplaced Pages" but why should teachers have to? You may think I'm being pedantic. Fair enough, stop calling yourselves an encyclopedia then. Just my "2 cents". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.202.172.247 (talk) 00:18, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Disgusting? No way. It was a good BBC article and good to see you yet again promoting wikipedia and this time in Old Blighty. Would that I had access to such a vast body of knowledge when I was a teenager and of course those of today should be encouraged to use it. Thanks, SqueakBox 19:16, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

could you tell us what you really did say?Thelmadatter (talk) 19:35, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if there is a video or audio anywhere, but I said basically the same things that I always say. If you have seen any of my speeches where I address these questions, well, I said what I always say. (Basically, teachers can use wikipedia as a teaching opportunity to help students better assess information sources. Misplaced Pages has strengths and weaknesses. An outright ban is silly... you can tell students not to listen to rock and roll music, too. But accepting wikipedia as a citable source is not really right either.)--Jimbo Wales 22:03, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

• I agree Misplaced Pages has some flaws like anything else, BUT it is fairly new and getting better every single day. I would strongly argue that the educational system has so many more flaws, and it has had over a 100 years to reform itself. As an author, I can state that I have probably learned double the amount of information on wiki than I did in school. Our schools have ancient textbooks which have become antiquated, wiki has thousands of editors that keep everything up to the minute, from new science advances to news updates. Once they perfect all the flows in the wiki system, I strongly believe the world will embrace it as the new system for learning and education. I quote the great Thomas Edison who I believe was the greatest genius of all time: "Our schools are not teaching students to think. It is astonishing how many young people have difficulty in putting their brains definitely and systematically to work." I completely agree with Edison. In the 21st century, not much has changed with the school system, it is almost as it was one hundred years ago (that is disgusting)! I believe wiki is a system that encourages students to think and participate in history, science, and current events. Thank you Jimbo for starting Misplaced Pages!--Persianhistory2008 (talk) 08:42, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

One of my teachers frequently cites Misplaced Pages. He first gives the page a read over, then tells us to look at the specific article. He thinks it's a valuable resource. I agree with him. I learned a lot from Misplaced Pages on my Software Engineering course, and I did well on an essay (something I don't do much of on my course) thanks to Misplaced Pages. --Deskana (talk) 13:24, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I think that any good teacher should say "do read Misplaced Pages but don't trust Misplaced Pages - use it as a starting point". Any reference to Misplaced Pages as a resource necessarily has to include the need to look at the page history, the article talk, and the internal and external links. The article the student sees is only a node on a temporal trajectory (can I trademark that?). My first contribution to en:wikipedia (as an IP) was following up on an argument in a pub about orbital mechanics. Don't try this at home kids! :) Geostationary orbit said 9 miles above the surface of the Earth and I looked at it 17 times, got my CRC Handbook out, checked two websites, I knew it was obviously wrong, I couldn't just walk away, but I had to be sure that "Undo" was going to make things right. So at any given time, there are errors and I could have left that one - and if people in any way learn to rely on Misplaced Pages, well, don't shoot your mouth off in your local pub based on it and for God's sake don't build any bridges or railways. I hope Jimbo would agree that the key is to teach how to use Misplaced Pages, it is not the answer, it's the way to find the answer. Franamax (talk) 12:17, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

And there's the tradeoff between accuracy and accessability. If you use anything on the internet which is free, you usually have just the same problem as with Misplaced Pages (PUBMED govt subsidized medical references being a major exception). And what are the chances you're going to spend the afternoon at the local library pulling tomes off shelves to get something you really know you can trust? Usually you don't need to trust anything that much. It's NOT the airplane or bridge you're building-- if you do that for living, somebody has bought you refs that you damn well CAN trust. So what do you use Misplaced Pages for? Somebody's doc sends them for a PET scan and they and you want to know what that is. In 10 min with a computer or even the right cell phone, you can find out more about PET scans than the average MD knew 10 years ago. And most of what's in Misplaced Pages is accurate, or if it is not, it's obvious that it's been messed with, because 99.999% of vandals are fools and all they can do is delete stuff or add scatology. Changing a decimal in an orbital calculation is actually what you very seldom find. SBHarris 21:42, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

As I have said many times, while WP is not itself a reliable source (you never know when the page you load will say POOP), it is an excellent and possibly unparalleled resource for finding reliable sources on almost any topic. That is why some of us have worked hard to make the footnoted cites as complete as possible, so that any kid in a library can go find those sources. - Crockspot (talk) 22:15, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Question about Merkey

I have no clue whether or not I'm stepping into a landmine here...

I'm a brand new admin and in trying to clean up pages that have been "semi" protected, I ran across Jeff V. Merkey. From what I can tell, there seem to have been several bouts of COI, BLP, harassment, etc around the article. But most if not all of that seems to have happened last year (late 2006), so I was wondering if the page should still be protected, or if it can be unprotected. Since you protected it back in Oct. 2006, I bring it to you to decide :) -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 02:01, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I would recommend keeping it semi-protected for now. It could be unprotected at some point in the future.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:58, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks :) -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 17:05, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

A small group can control a large group

I've edited WP for a while, and I've noticed that small, dedicated groups of editors can control large groups of less dedicated editors. Is this how it should be? - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 11:47, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

In general, it is a good thing, yes. In cases where the small, dedicated group is a group of serious Wikipedians who care about quality and neutrality, it is a great thing indeed.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:57, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Providing that that small group is willing to grow with the increasing interest and membership, and to take comment from outside of the group and consider it on its merits (and not its non-internal origin) and evolve, then, yes, it is great. It however may become problematic when the small grouping begins to believe that its purpose is to exist, and not to provide guidance, and stifle the growth and development of the larger faction. Therein lies the inherent problem of a small group controlling the larger, to whose benefit does it exercise its influence. LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:50, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

New Misplaced Pages User

Hello, I am Marianian, a user of one of the Wikimedia projects, NSWiki. It is nice to see you on somewhat a very chilly day here in Britain. How are you doing today?

See you later,

--Marianian (talk) 19:11, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Fund raising header and coordinates in en.Misplaced Pages - a major problem

I can understand the need to use a fundraising header from time to time; but I can not understand why it can not be created in such a way as to display properly on pages that use the coordiates template in en.Misplaced Pages. I realize that the problem is the absolute location of the coordinate entry, but why no one with the power to do something about it is willing to invested in the programing costs to fix the problem escapes me. The following page is a good example of the problem which displays differently dependant upon that status of the fund raising header (hidden or fully displayed) both create problems. http://en.wikipedia.org/St._Joseph%27s_Catholic_School_%28Hamilton%2C_New_Zealand%29# Note: the smaller the window the worse the problem becomes.

Also see the discussion related to the issue in greater detail at http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28technical%29#Problem_with_the_position_of_coordinates_with_fund_raising_header

Also posted at http://meta.wikimedia.org/Talk:Fundraising_2007/Archive2#Conflict_with_fundrasing_header_and_coordinates

These document some of my attempts to address the problem over the past 40 days

Would you be willing to forward this to someone with the tallent to fix the problem? Dbiel 04:00, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

A Respectful Challenge to Jimbo Wales

“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” – Mark Twain

Jimbo & Wikipedians:

You inhabit one reality. I will posit an alternative reality.

Imagine a world where a massive financial crime is ruining our market. Imagine that the past head of the SEC, various economists and finance professors, journalists at financial publications such as Bloomberg, and now even the current head of the SEC, have confirmed that this problem is real.

Imagine also that the crooks perpetrating the crime have a shill whom they unleash upon Misplaced Pages to doctor certain pages to reflect only half-truths and negatives to keep the cover-up in place, to run an attack site smearing anyone who tries to reveal the truth.

Into this world steps Judd Bagley who, through technical knowledge and patience, discovers how they are running the cover-up. He posts his results to Misplaced Pages, but his posts are expunged and he is banned. He posts them on his own site, but any discussion of his site (even its name) become a Wikipedian thought-crime under the Orwellian moniker of "attack site." Ironically, they accuse him of running a smear campaign, apparently hoping that none will check for themselves and see he has written well-documented exposes of their smear campaigns.

In addition, imagine that an investigative journalist gets interested, reviews the evidence, and writes a story connecting the dots. His story gets expunged within Misplaced Pages, the publication for which he writes (TheRegister.com) gets banned, and all concerned pages are locked down so no evidence of these other points of view exist. Does this sound like people committed to free discourse in a market-place of ideas ruled by "the wisdom of crowds"? Does it sound like "the encyclopedia that anyone can edit"? Or does it sound like North Korea?

I respectfully assert, Wikipedians, that your entire worldview is as distorted as those of North Koreans who are never exposed to an idea that contradicts the opinion of Great Leader. You are living in The Matrix, and your reality on the subjects of naked shorting, Overstock, and myself, is fabricated and manipulated by just such arrangements.

You will scoff, I know. One will write more “Patrick Byrne is so nuts” blogs. Perhaps he will add quotes from those blogs to his Wiki-page here (citing his blogs as evidence), and then friends of his will quote it in their stories, then he will cite them, and so on and so forth in a self-referential cover-up. While those pages remain locked under the control of people who stand accused, you Wikipedians cannot tell which reality you inhabit, and you lose your right to count yourselves among those committed to free thought. In addition, if he remains unwilling to let subjects in which he has personal interest be discussed by the same set of rules by which other Misplaced Pages articles exist, Jim Wales will be a hypocrite. In fact, I challenge Jim Wales to expose the following two statements to the normal Misplaced Pages processes, and if he will not, then he should abandon all his claims about the virtues of Misplaced Pages:

a) JzG and Samiharris cannot produce evidence for the claims they make about Judd. Repeating a lie many times does not make it true.

b) Jim claims that “Overstock launched an ‘attack site’ against Weiss..." This is false.

Jim, you always sounded so confident about Misplaced Pages’s virtues, until now.

Respectfully submitted,
Patrick M. Byrne
CEO, Overstock.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.166.120.86 (talk) 04:45, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Regarding item (b), I have responded on Talk:Gary_Weiss. I do not really understand what you are claiming to be false about it, but I have given an expanded version. Can you take a look at that and see if you can agree that it is accurate? Just how is that different? Are you claiming, for example, that although Bagley created the attack site, he did so on his own, not as part of his job at Overstock?

Regarding item (a), please be specific about which parts of Judd Bagley are wrong?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 10:30, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I am not sure I understand what you are talking about. How does this relate to The Matrix and North Korea? Thank you. - Jehochman 04:56, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

It is for that very reason we have administrators, bureaucrats, overseers, and the allmighty "revert" button to revert massive amounts of doctored edits; such a method was proved in the past when someone changed every appearance of the word "abortion" to read "murder", our stewards, administrators, and pretty much everyone else started exercising their rollback fingers, and the administrators started exercising their ban buttons. In addition, Jimbo is not the all-powerful person many people see him as (sorry, Jimbo). Should something happen to his account and he would start doing this, or any other account for that matter, a bureaucrats would immediately de-sysop (remove administrator privileges) the offending account, and initiate a block. Misplaced Pages is a encyclopedia anyone can edit with checks and balances, read 48,530,079 registered users of Misplaced Pages who constantly patrol the community. We really are a lot more reliable than you think. --FastLizard4 (Talk•Index•Sign) 05:02, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

And as for "alternate reality", why does it apply to us if it isn't going to happen? It may appply someday when there is a starship named the USS Enterprise orbiting the Earth, but it dosen't now. --FastLizard4 (Talk•Index•Sign) 05:04, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Fastlizard: the mechanisms that generate reliability are absent while those pages remain under the control of a few. All that they are then is an exercise in mass mind control.
"'And as for 'alternate reality', why does it apply to us if it isn't going to happen?" Because maybe it already has and you don't see it yet. PatrickByrne (talk) 05:18, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I'll put it this way: . Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. --FastLizard4 (Talk•Index•Sign) 05:46, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

In addition, I have extremely serious doubts about you being the CEO of Overstock.com. Again, . --FastLizard4 (Talk•Index•Sign) 05:48, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Furthermore, based on this evidence gathered from your IP address data:

1. WHOIS
2. OPEN RBL
3. Multi RBL
4. Traceroute
5. TOR NODE checker
6. ARIN North America

I am futher convivced that you are not the CEO of Overstock. The data indicates that you are operating out of a AT&T/Comcast DSL/Cable proxy server, not a corporate proxy, which an exec would probably have in most cases. However, data seems to indicate that the data is coming from Utah, which is the only supportative evidence on your behalf. However, that can be ruled out since you are operating from a dynamic IP, which could just mean that the server broadcasting your IP is in Utah. --FastLizard4 (Talk•Index•Sign) 06:02, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not in the business of investigative journalism. It is an encyclopedia whose mandate is to neutrally summarize reliable sources. Bagley can go to the Washington Post and maybe help someone get a Pulitzer, but here he's barking up the wrong tree. Crum375 (talk) 05:50, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Wouldn't he be better off keeping his business afloat? Durova 06:25, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

It's consistent with Byrne in this one important respect: the only person I have never seen Byrne blame for his company's dismal performance is himself. He's blamed sinister cabals, Wall Street journalists, Misplaced Pages and MI5, but never himself. Guy (Help!) 08:08, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

It's also consistent with Byrne to make intemperate public statements that later get him into trouble, as in his remarks on CNBC on Friday that had to be "clarified" by his lawyers, which sent his stock plunging 21%.. --Samiharris (talk) 13:29, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

First, on whether this is or is not Patrick Byrne: yes I could enter through a corporate IP, but since those are blocked, as is discussed in TheRegister.co.uk's article "Misplaced Pages's Black Helicopters Circle Utah's Traverse Mountain" (which I hope is not a thought-crime to mention), I chose not to enter from a corporate IP.

Second, "He's blamed sinister cabals, Wall Street journalists, Misplaced Pages and MI5, but never himself" is just part of the clogging that forms the cover-up. In fact, I have repeatedly taken responsibility for any and all operating mishaps at Overstock. I also want to talk about a major financial crime that I believe is harming America, and when I do, the knee-jerk response is, "Byrne's just blaming" blah blah blah. Let me reverse it: now that Overstock is back generating pretty good cash flow again, does that make me right about the subjects of naked shorting, regulatory and journalistic capture, and systemic risk? Because when we were losing money some folks were sure insistent it made me wrong about these subjects.

Third, Fastlizard says that "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." Agreed. I can post the evidence here, but it will all be deleted immediately. So I'll just post the places where you can read it and decide for yourself. If I do so, and those citations are deleted, then I think you will concede my point: you cannot simultaneously call for citations, and then delete any citations that I adduce as being "attack sites" or otherwise Haraam. I provide them at the end of this post.

Fourth, Jimbo asks, "Are you claiming, for example, that although Bagley created the attack site, he did so on his own, not as part of his job at Overstock?" To which I respond: It was definitely not "part of his job at Overstock" (in fact, I did not know about it until later, or that he was behind it, until even later), and moreover, it is not an "attack site," it is a site which documents abuses within Misplaced Pages which are expunged from the record other Wikipedians are allowed to consider.

Fifth, you folks have devoted a lot of time and attention to the discussion of how awful Judd Bagley (WordBomb) is, and given that, how this and that must be forbidden, and how someone posted something that read like WordBomb may have written it so they must be banned, and so on and so forth. In all that discussion of how bad Judd Bagley is and all that flows from it, there is precisely one person excluded from the conversation, and that is, Judd Bagley. He is the Goldstein in your 1984.

Here are citations for places where you can explore the fact that you are inhabiting a hermetically-sealed self-referential alternate reality: TheRegister.co.uk's"Misplaced Pages Black Helicopters Circle Utah's Traverse Mountain" and Antisocialmedia.net.
PatrickByrne (talk) 15:07, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

TheRegister isn't exactly known for fact checking and accuracy in journalism. Perhaps you should take your story to the New York Times or Wall Street Journal and ask them to publish it. As a tertiary source, Misplaced Pages is happy to use reliable secondary sources as references. Please understand we're generally not going to rely upon material from The National Enquirer, or somebody's blog to support a controversial statement. - Jehochman 17:34, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Unless, of course, TheRegister publishes a story that supports the Party Line, or Gary writes a blog that can then cited as the source for Gary's page, right? No one here seems too fastidious in those cases. It is only when the Party Line is offended that such rules are invoked, apparently. PatrickByrne (talk) 01:52, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages has no "Party Line" about you, Weiss, Overstock, naked short selling, etc. I think that The Register is not a very good source for anything, and particularly not for any controversial claims. I encourage all editors to review all the related articles to ensure that there is no "double standard" in play regarding sourcing, particularly for negative claims about living people.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:16, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

• Which brings up an interesting question: given the extremely sensivitive reputational nature of common stock corporations, should they not be extended at least some of the courtesies extended to BLP on wikipedia? And if the answer is "no," then consider the double standard operating between wikipedia coverage of Overstock vs. (say) Wikia, as corporations. It's not that there's no WP:V sourceable negative material available about Wikia. Rather, it would quickly be removed from the article, if inserted. Which I believe I could demonstate, if it didn't violate WP:POINT.

  For that matter, there's an even larger problem in that Misplaced Pages's zeal against things which would "disrupt it" have outlawed (via POINT and WP:SOCK) all experimentation to discover how it works sociologically-- that is, to discover its biases with any kind of prospective test like the one just mentioned. Which, as you know, is the only sure way to find out how anything REALLY works (as opposed to how it's supposed to work, or how everybody thinks it works as a matter of personal opinion). That's not good, for it leaves us forever in the dark as to what biases exist, except as we guess about them epidemiologically. Even medicine performs controlled prospective trials with ill patients, and Misplaced Pages is not in the most perfect health imaginable. Any "disruption" in experimentation to find out Misplaced Pages's biases, should repay itself many times over, in smoother and less biased function down the line. SBHarris 19:45, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

He has already received coverage in the Times. Here is a passage from a February 2006 article by Joseph Nocera entitled "Overstock's Campaign of Menace":

"This is what Mr. Bryne does: along with Mr. O'Brien, he bullies and taunts and goads the small handful of reporters who dare to write about Overstock, making it clear that there will be a price to be paid for tackling the company or its chief executive. And as a result, financial reporters have become very chary of taking him on." /

In his obsession with this project, and his ham handed effort to influence the article on a non-notable reporter, we see this "campaign of menace" in its full ugliness.--Samiharris (talk) 18:40, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

If he's a "non-notable reporter" reporter as you say Sami, why is there even an article on him? It should be deleted immediately per WP:BLP. 75.175.30.112 (talk) 01:15, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I misspoke. I meant an WP:NPF reporter. --Samiharris (talk) 13:24, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

The Register named me in two stories, including the one mentioned here, without ever attempting to contact me and check the facts. Durova 19:43, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Maybe he just read your emails. PatrickByrne (talk) 01:44, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

You guys could be talking to the real Byrne, you know. But Judd Bagley with his antisocial.net is Overstock's Director of Communications, not some independent reporter, and wasn't exactly forthcoming about that until "outed", recently. . Furthermore, he doesn't exactly look like Mr. NiceGuy. So there are undoubtedly two sides to this story. As for Overstock itself, they've claimed they're victims of naked short sale behavior: (proof ) by large Hedge Funds and others, which is something I have to take Jim Cramer's word actually happens in the Real Financial World, even though Cramer never said it happened to Overstock. So it's also possible that the SEC are a bunch of doofuses. Do you know any branch of the fed government that really is up to snuff recently? They've had their hands sort of full, halfway around the world. SBHarris 02:29, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

• Take a good look at this type headline:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/web/gitmo-troops-vandalise-wikipedia/2007/12/13/1197135602444.html

A government like that of the U.S. will defend itself against a “Lord of the flies” type wiki environment where and when innocent citizens fall victim to a group of kids that can make up their own version of the truth, at will. The WMF may be in for a rude awakening in the not too distant future, albeit it will not happen soon enough to help many people that have already been hurt by this nonsense. I suspect laws will change and privacy issues will be flying in the face of every one of the administrators herein. The age issue will also be a trump card that the government will use to act against WP. It will not be games as usual and “free speech will bow to laws. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.163.255.152 (talk) 03:03, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I fail to see what vandalization of Misplaced Pages by a bunch of bored troops at GITMO has to do with this entire issue. And say, I didn't know Fidel Castro WAS a "transexual"! SBHarris 03:24, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

failing to see what is happening here is not an unusual phenom, i fear —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.164.158.248 (talk) 03:34, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Honestly, I doubt the corporate IPs of Overstock are blocked. We don't block for no reason. Also, what would we gain from doctoring the pages? I pose an alternate reality to you: You are living in the dumbed down Orwellian society in your mind, proven by your questionable comments on TV and in newspapers, one excellent example is that stink on CNBC, which caused your stock to drop 21%. We live in America, a democratic country, it dosen't matter whether I like or dislike President Bush, the important thing is that we live in a democracy. You are effectively accusing us of being the new USSR, a Orwellian society of geeks who pretend they would like to make the world a better place. In fact, we really do want to make the world a better place, because ideas want to be free. How would you like it if I went on a rant in public claiming that Overstock.com gets it's products from sweatshops and hidden slave labor camps, perhaps even accusing them of being communist. You are essentially doing the same thing to us, as proud editors of Misplaced Pages. We actually believe in democracy and the benefits we bring, that is why the USSR fell! That is why we fought the Nazis in World War II, in the fight against communism and fascism, and you accuse other people in your own country of being so. In my opinion, noting could be so anti-American, accusing your fellow countrymen of being communist. --FastLizard4 (Talk•Index•Sign) 06:04, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

David Gerard blocked Overstock's ip range himself, as to the rest of what you said you might want to stop drinking the Kool-Aid. 75.175.30.112 (talk) 06:35, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I do not understand you comment; what does LSD-laced Kool-Aid have to do with this? Besides, when was the last time you actually seen a Misplaced Pages netgeek actually drink Kool-Aid? --FastLizard4 (Talk•Index•Sign) 20:57, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

"Don't drink the Kool-aide" is a Jim Jones reference that means "Don't trust charismatic leaders." Our article says "Some followers obeyed Jones' instructions to commit "revolutionary suicide" by drinking cyanide-laced grape flavored Flavor Aid (often misidentified as Kool-aid)." WAS 4.250 (talk) 21:17, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Consensus v. NPOV

Hi, I am not sure if this is something that you will have any interest in addressing, but I figured that I would run it by you anyway just in case. There where two discussions at about the same time on Misplaced Pages talk:Verifiability concerning WP:V Exceptional claims require exceptional sources, and a second conversation that touched upon consensus.

Often times “…there is not a clear line between reliability and questionability…” concerning sources, especially when the material being discuses is controversial, and editors are left to use their best judgment. I had proposed the following sentence be added to the Exceptional claims section:

Such claims may only be included when there is a consensus amongst editors that the sources cited are reliable for the claims made.

This following well founded argument was given: “too easy to circumvent NPOV with this too: a single editor declaring a source "unreliable for the claims made" (with or without giving a foundation for his/her declaration) leads to a no-consensus situation that would exclude the material from the encyclopedia. Of course consensus is the best way, but lack of consensus on the sources should not be used as an excuse to delete, nor, of course, as warranty for inclusion.”

The inclusion argument goes something like this:

If someone removes questionable material that supports your side of an argument, an effective means of maintaining that material against policy or the opinions of other editors is to revert, and add an edit summery stating “rv deletion of text without consensus” or similar. This gives the outward appearance of being civil while at the same time maintaining material that you know or should know is not supported by policy.

This argument was made by one editor: “…there was not "consensus" to delete, as WP:CON describes it…”

To which I replied: “There was not consensus to delete.” I might point out that you have inverted consensus here, there is no such thing as consensus to remove questionable material, simply a lack of consensus to retain it. Anyone restoring questionable material on the claim that there is “a lack of consensus to remove” is being disingenuous."

So here is the problem, Consensus is written in such a way that agreement amongst all the editors involved is implied. “Consensus does not mean that everyone agrees with the outcome; instead, it means that everyone agrees to abide by the outcome.” Commonsense would seem to indicate that if 10 editors where involved in an effort to reach consensus on a controversial topic, the best anyone could hope for would be that six or seven would agree, two or three would still disagree but abide by the will of the majority, and that with luck no more than one would stick firmly to their position come hell or high-water. So at best your breakdown would be 7/2/1; the one alone throwing any hope of reaching a consensus beyond reach. I would have to say that having multiple editors agree on any subject is a challenge, and on controversial subjects it is unrealistic. If you compare this to a civil trial, unlike a criminal trial, there are few jurisdictions that would require unanimous consent of all jurors before returning a verdict. And that’s based upon “preponderance of the evidence”, one side's case must simply be considered more provable than the other's. Or again drawing upon the judicial system; how often do the 9 Justices of the Supreme Court reach unanimous agreement? If they can not, why should there be any hope for the rest of us?

I would say that 7/10 agreement is sufficient meet consensus and move forward. But as I look through CON, and what others have written concerning CON, I would say that WP seems to be shooting for 10/10. The higher the requirement for agreement, the easier it is to block material that is contrary to your POV, or block the removal of material that is contrary to your POV; thus the higher that the bar is set for CON, the easier it is to undermine NPOV. I wonder if CON is not written so tightly that it has become in some ways self-defeating. On the other hand I am not sure how you write 7/10ths into policy (my figure, 7/10 could just as easily be 2/3 or 6/10, or even 51/49 -but hopefully not that low.) And maybe I will read CON again tomorrow and wonder why I wrote this;) Thanks, Brimba (talk) 06:19, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Nice to be quoted. Even nicer with a reference, which I inserted above.

I'd like to start with a general thought (not a direct answer to your question, but needs to be understood as general framework of thought): "NPOV is non-negotiable." (from the second sentence of Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view) - this means that even if 10 editors would reach consensus on a talk page on how to "bend" NPOV, such consensus should immediately be overturned. Consensus can't outdo NPOV. Seeking consensus w.r.t. NPOV is in practice limited to seeking consensus on how to best apply the NPOV policy/principle.

Other than that I see no limitations to promoting consensus as the best mechanism to settle all sorts of differences in Misplaced Pages. The point I tried to make in what you quoted from me above is that content policies should not include prescriptions in the vein of: "in case of non-consensus party X wins the content dispute". It really makes no difference whether in such prescription "party X" is the inclusionist or the deletionist... the important point is that one should avoid to create a party who would actually gain from a state of non-consensus. If a party benefits from a state of non-consensus, that party would most naturally strive for non-consensus. The practical result would be that such policy prescription would undermine consensus-seeking processes. So, I promote "consensus" as a most important principle for Misplaced Pages, and for that reason I likewise try to avoid policy or guideline regulations that would undermine consensus dynamics by allocating advantages to a "non-consensus" escape route.

Now, someone who undeletes with "there was not consensus to delete" (my bolding added) tries that very same "non-consensus" escape route. Re-deleting with "no consensus te keep" would be a similar attempt at "non-consensus" escape route. Repeat the cycle a few times and another policy kicks in: WP:3RR. Well, you'd be blind not to see that all these policies work towards the same: discuss on talk page until you reach consensus (compare also: WP:BRD). Then, policies are also there to help you in sorting out content disputes: if the source is unreliable then the material shouldn't be included (WP:V). If the reliability of the source for the particular case is at the heart of the dispute, try Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard: this might help in finding a durable consensus, etc. But be aware that in most cases content disputes can't be resolved as if they were mathematical equations. --Francis Schonken (talk) 20:58, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

“be aware that in most cases content disputes can't be resolved as if they were mathematical equations.” That is probably correct. I do find however that once someone invokes the "non-consensus" escape route, most involved editors decide that they have better things to do with their time. After all the editor invoking "non-consensus" has basically let everyone involved know that he/she is digging in and is unlikely to have their mind changed, so most people go someplace else where their time and effort could be better spent. For example the Illegal immigration to the United States still maintains material sourced to Madeleine Cosman after almost a year and a half (I think its been that long) discussion, and segments on both 60 Minutes and the New York Times challenging both her claims and her credentials for making such claims. As with so much on that page, its been discussed multiple times, and always the hardcore Nativist element has basically driven off anyone with a differing opinion; there are no minds to be changed there, so people leave. Anyway, thanks for what you wrote above, you are somewhat more hopeful than I am at this moment (which is not to say that I find the situation hopeless :) Brimba (talk) 23:16, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Your sockpuppet

Sorry, Jimbo. I had to spill the beans. People have been hounding me for The Great Secret. Please change the password. I've been operating your sockpuppet long enough. The full confession is here. Durova 08:36, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

WikiReview of Menudo Scandal

This site has alot of comments by readers regards this controversy WikiRevew in Menudo Scandal

== Jimbo Please Respond ==

I found this quote regards this Menudo mess on a message board and it makes some sense people comment below :

"Well, for all of you people who still think that there are still articles on WP which can be edited without WWIII taking place, I present for your examination : Menudo (band).

On the talk page, it seems that the nexus of conflict is an alleged "Menudo drugs and gay sex" scandal which was covered in tabloids about seventeen years ago. The usual argument about WP:RS, WP:COI and WP:POINT has raged for the past few days and yesterday, the GodKing took the bull by the horns and issued an edict of article banning to the two editors who seem to be at the center of this, alleging that one of them owned a pseudo-"official" fansite which was pushing a certain POV agenda, but said POV agenda includes sources in reputable newspapers (NYTimes, Miami Herald, the NY Daily News), Police reports, official bankruptcy reports, Department of justice letters. This person certainly seems to have documented all of this and it certainly doesn't look like original research.

Now, what I find interesting is this:

QUOTE Admins are recommended to be quite firm about not letting the two sides of this fight carry on their fight within Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages is not the place for external fights to be re-enacted. We are writing an encyclopedia. This is our project, not a free speech zone for people to engage in public spats.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:01, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Now, it would seem to me that WP:RS has more than been covered here and this just amounts to censorship to avoid legal problems for WP, since probably there's a record co. exec. who is threatening to sue them even if it's all true (that's SOP in the Pop music biz...).

But given current events, don't you think that it would be more...um....cost-effective to solve others large-scale site issues rather than putting out these small fires by spouting policy issues which are not enforced elsewhere?

I guess that Jimbo can't just send in the Durova/SV Bucket brigade anymore to clean things up..."

--66.229.248.172 (talk) 17:18, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

This is a really silly comment. There is no legal threat from any record company. There is just a routine dispute. Try not to get so excited.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:41, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Jimbo why is this person attacking me I only made comment on Lou Pearlman talk page and not in article?

This is the last warning you will receive for your disruptive edits.
The next time you vandalize Misplaced Pages, you will be blocked from editing. Michaelbusch (talk) 23:05, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

never vandalized anything only making comments on talk pages--66.229.248.172 (talk) 23:09, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

--66.229.248.172 (talk) 23:09, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

There is nothing interesting about run-of-the-mill protecting the project from those that would make it a battlefield and a web hosting service (both of which Misplaced Pages is NOT). Trying to describe that type of protection as censorship is disingenuous at best; calling it that is quite charitable indeed. Everything that follows is just a still-beating-your-wife fallacy. And the last comment is blatantly contradicted by the very quote you bring; he was implying permission for bucket brigades of all persuasions to be on the ball. So there is nothing to see here. Move along. Baccyak4H (Yak!) 18:12, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I apologize for 66.239.248.172's posting here. This editor has a history of disruptive talk page posts, and has been blocked twice before. I suspect that this page gets an astronomical number of spurious posts, but I would prefer that the number say as low as possible. Michaelbusch (talk) 23:20, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Arbcom

I'm sorry, I hate to do this, but I have a major problem.

Kirill Lokshin (talk · contribs) posted this in an arbcom case:

9) Adam Cuerden (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) has repeatedly used his administrative tools in order to further his position in content disputes, including protecting and unprotecting pages he was editing (Radionics: , ; Homeopathy: , , ; George Vithoulkas: , , ), and blocking other users editing those pages (Sm565, for edits on Homeopathy; Martinphi, for edits on Homeopathy).

However, consider the actual edits of these four sections of my supposed bad behaviour:

George Vithoulkas:

• Here someone blocks a page.
• Here, after the block, I edit then immediately revert myself, seeing the page was protected.
• Then JzG puts up an AfD tag
• http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=George_Vithoulkas&diff=next&oldid=116806071 <- So I unprotect it.

...How is this described? Using protect tools during a dispute!!!!!!!!

Homeopathy

• Protected on a version by someone I was in dispute with. Oh no!
• What the hell are these supposed to be evidence of, anyway? That I edited the page? Was it under protection and I hadn't realised, or something?

User:Sm565

• A 31 hour 3RR block.

The other two are slightly more complicated - the Radionics one appeared to be recruiting to get around 3RR, and the Martinphi was based on my understanding of an arbcom decision, and so I contacted arbcom on several of their talk pages to check I got it right.

However, the fact remains that in a case where I'm being dragged over the coals for failure to properly review the situation and judge correctly before making a block, the one of the arbcom members made up evidence themselves that was never put into the Evidence section with extremely questionable perception, and then all of them fell over themselves to support it. This is rank hypocrisy. Adam Cuerden 18:18, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Adam, I have not researched all of these cases but I can respond to two of Kirill's examples. You are an extensive editor of Homeopathy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), with more than 100 edits to the article or talk page. Under those conditions, it is a misuse of your adminship to decide to protect, or even semi-protect the article. When you are involved in an editing dispute as an editor, you must use WP:RFPP or some other means to contact an uninvolved admin for an unbiased assessment. Sm565 (talk · contribs) was also an extensive editor of Homeopathy. As such, you are forbidden to block him, even for a clear-cut case of 3RR violation, but instead you must file a report at WP:AN3 like any other editor. Basically, it boils down to this: When you are acting like an editor, you may not intervene as an admin. I'm afraid I agree with the sentiment of the 5 arbitrators who have so far voted to desysop you that RFA made a mistake in your case and you are not (yet) ready for the admin toolbox. Thatcher131 18:21, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I am not easily upset. So it's good to know that when I am filled with righteous anger that others have tact and can help calm me down by calling me a mistake and worthless as an admin. Adam Cuerden 19:03, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Wow. Well, in the case of the protection of Homeopathy and the block of Sm565 your "righteous anger" is entirely misplaced. You violated the blocking and protection policies. When this is pointed out in a calm voice, you react with anger rather than contrition. It is one thing to say "I got carried away" or "I did not fully appreciate the ramifications of the policy." Yet you continue to deny that you did anything wrong when four other Arbitrators have endorsed Kirill's proposal. One thing that is certain is that you and the 5 voting arbitrators have a very different idea of the use of administrator tools when one is involved in a content dispute. I think it is highly unlikely that Jimbo will see things your way. Thatcher131 19:12, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Your view of the role of an admin is ludicrous and would turn adminwork to bureaucratic hell. You claim that admins cannot unprotect a page they've edited under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. You claim that admins' judgement is so poor that having edited a page means they're unable to block a clear 3RR. Misplaced Pages encourages us to ignore all rules, not create towering edifices of bureaucracy to prevent admins from actually getting anything done. Adam Cuerden 19:35, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Even if your judgement in blocking Sm565 was crystal clear and the block endorsed by a dozen other admins, you should not have made it. Admins only have credibility if they and their actions are perceived as being fair and unbiased. WP:BLOCK#Disputes has an exception for removal of unsourced BLP material because of the sensitivity of the project toward this issue. It does not have any exceptions for "unless the 3RR is clear" or "unless the admin is really using good judgement." Thatcher131 19:49, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, given that in the course of this case, you lot have decided to extend content dispute to include "edited the article 9 months ago, and also edited some related articles" for the purpose of the main issue of the arbcom, it probably wouldn't help much. In any case, it's hard to see significant harm done from a several month old 31 hour block. It's not like there's an admin training program, you know. We're told to go forth and use our best judgement, and to follow policy. And then someone becomes upset, and suddenly every action is under the microscope looking for the tiniest error so that a desysop can be justified. Adam Cuerden 21:10, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Adam, this isn't an isolated case. Are you not a significant contributor to ID-related articles, and have you not taken administrative actions related to some of those articles? Thatcher131's point is correct, admins are not to take action in articles they edit, or against users who disagree with content positions that they have taken. Even if there is not a real COI, a perceived COI is just as bad. - Crockspot (talk) 21:23, 12 December 2007 (UTC) To be fair: There are more experienced admins who make this same mistake, even in some of the same set of articles (I won't mention names). You just happened to end up in arbitration over it. - Crockspot (talk) 21:27, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Adam, whether or not you edited the article Irreducible complexity‎ is, to me, a minor issue at best. Your block of Matthew Hoffman was unacceptable because "POV pushing" is rarely sufficient reason for indefinite banning, and certainly not without a hell of a lot more effort as far as education on our policies, community feedback, and dispute resolution including RFC. (Hoffman had only 7 mainspace edits) That's strike one. You failed to engage in appropriate review of your own actions and discussion with another admin. That's strike two. In response to the proposal to desysop (which I do feel was inappropriately hasty) additional cases of misuse of the tools were uncovered. That's strike 3. In all the subsequent discussion, have you ever agreed that the block of Hoffman and Sm565 were wrong? No, but you have referred to the requirement to ask an uninvolved admin to make a 3RR block as "bureaucratic hell"--how many strikes do you think you get? Thatcher131 21:44, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Thatcher, you KNOW I upgraded to indef because I thought he was a sockpuppet. I gave him a 3 day ban because I thought he was attacking others, due to not reading all the context. Adam Cuerden 22:05, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

There actually is an admin coaching program, and discussion with other admins is always available before making tough decisions. —Cronholm 21:20, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

However, not that discussion with other admins actually is any help. Everyone I discussed with got pulled in and attacked too. Adam Cuerden 22:05, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Adam, please take a break for a day or two. You're obviously upset by all this. The processing of this case has created the appearance of unfairness, but I don't think you are helping your own cause at the moment. Hopefully ArbCom will see the wisdom in the criticism they've received. - Jehochman 22:17, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

(ec)The prospect of losing the admin bit must feel awful, but it isn't the end of everything. I understand that you felt like you were doing the right thing with some of those blocks, but the fact remains that they were against policy. As for the discussion about Hoffman, unfortunately only two admins (and one non admin) commented and neither comment was of much substance (I don't think they looked at the case too closely). Indef blocking is heavy stuff and shouldn't be hurried through ANI IMHO and appears to be the opinion of arbcom as well. Again I feel for you, but it isn't like Arbcom can just ignore everything and give out a pass. Also, I agree with Jehochman about the break, getting scrutinized by Arbcom can be really stressful. —Cronholm 22:26, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I think I disagree with the first part of Cronholm's statement. The effort it takes to desysop someone makes it similar to the end of the world. And for some folks who have been one for a long time, it is like a permanent edit restriction. It is a fantasy that adminship is "no big deal" and it is time to put that particular fantasy aside. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 22:35, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

(ec again, what a busy page this is) Considering Rocksanddirt's comment and the record of those who have lost their tools and then had them returned at a later time (only two I think), I have refactored. However, I think that Adam definitely has the capability to make that number three, given enough time and some mentoring or admin coaching. He is certainly a valuable contributer when it comes to regular editing (and probably the majority of his admin work), and it would be a shame to lose him in that capacity. —Cronholm 23:14, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

My view on this is: I trust Kirill Lokshin. Period.--Phoenix-wiki  23:42, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, Phoenix. Kirill hasn't done much, if anything, to lose our trust. --Gp75motorsports (talk) 14:53, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Unwarranted block of a user

Hi Jimbo. Pleas take a look at this.

On 6 December, User:EVula blocked User:Goodshoped35110s without warning or evidence and proceeded to vote canvass his unblock discussion. Is this not a violation of admin guidelines? Sure, Goodshoped was a little blunt with his username warnings, but let the record show that all of his edits have been in good faith. As far as I see, this was uncalled for and deserves immediate attention. --Gp75motorsports (talk) 23:02, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

WP:ANI is a much better venue for this sort of thing. Cheers—Cronholm 23:16, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Went there. --Gp75motorsports (talk) 23:18, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

For the record, consensus endorsed the block for a second time (the first being here). Daniel 04:54, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Advice for Jimbo

Jimbo, please be careful about how you handle issues. For example, the secret mailing lists. Many are worried that the secret mailing list will be abused. Just like how Giano and others get blocked because of discussions on IRC and !! get blocked because of Durova's secret evidence. Don't just say their worries are "nonsense". Check that there is no abuse of the secret mailing list. At least if there is no abuse, you can tell them "I checked and there is no abuse".

It is bad that many Wikipedians worry about this, even if their worries are "nonsense". Because of this, they lose faith in Misplaced Pages. They also lose faith in ArbCom. You can see the ArbCom elections this year and compare the support percent with last year. Last year at least 6 candidates have at least 80% support, this year only 2 candidates.

Remember when you said about Essjay, "I regard it as a pseudonym and I don’t really have a problem with it." That comment made a lot of people who don't know much about Misplaced Pages think that you let people lie about their degrees. Wikipedians also lose faith in you and Misplaced Pages. Then when somebody wrote on Slashdot that SlimVirgin is a spy, and you wrote there "Slashdot, you have been trolled." You should read the angry replies by others. They also said that Jayjg used Checkuser to hide info about SlimVirgin. Did you check whether what they say is true? At least if you check, and if it is nonsense, you can tell everyone "I checked and Jayjg did not do anything wrong". Of course, if it is true that SlimVirgin is a spy or Jayjg used Checkuser to hide info, then you can ban them to stop them from doing more damage to Misplaced Pages.

You must also be careful about comments and decisions you make as the leader of Misplaced Pages. Zoe and Jaranda left Misplaced Pages because your comments offend them. When you make sudden decisions, Wikipedians may think you abuse your power or don't care about their views. Cedars left Misplaced Pages because of one of your sudden decisions. Last week, you called Giano, who writes a lot of FAs, a troll. Those who write a lot of GAs and FAs are the best and most important Wikipedians and you cannot just drive them away like that.

Of course you are a good leader and that is why Misplaced Pages is one of the biggest websites in the world. But criticism helps you improve.

--Kaypoh (talk) 14:02, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I did not call Giano a troll, nor do I think he is a troll. But even an excellent and much appreciated author like Giano can behave badly, and in that instance I think it pretty clear that he was behaving badly. The whole myth of an alleged "secret mailing list" used by a "cabal" of "elite admins" is not true, by the way. On the SlimVirgin "spy" allegation, and Jayjg using oversight (not checkuser), I am not the only one who looked at it: it was thoroughly investigated by multiple people. I agree with you completely that I should be careful, but let me stand up and firmly say that people should really really be careful about what sources of information they accept. There are a lot of lies and misunderstandings that go unchecked when people do not engage in simple questioning and critical thinking.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:05, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

No, you didn't call Giano "a troll", you just said: "Giano was trolling (i.e. doing something he knew to be disruptive), he knew he was trolling, and I doubt if he will last much longer at Misplaced Pages because of it." I'm sure there's a fine existential distinction in there someplace. Seriously, you could make a rabbit schizophrenic, 'cause way to split hares. sNkrSnee | ¿qué? 20:00, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

"On the SlimVirgin "spy" allegation, and Jayjg using oversight (not checkuser)," I have never made eiter of those allegations, what are you trying to imply now? Giano (talk) 23:31, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

It is good that you check whether Jayjg used Oversight and whether SlimVirgin is a spy. About the secret mailing list, when article writers like Giano, Badlydrawnjeff and !! (like I said, they are the best and most important Wikipedians) get blocked because of discussions on IRC and the "secret mailing list", Wikipedians have a good reason to be worried. Instead of saying their worries are "nonsense", you should check that nobody abuses the "secret mailing list" (and I know there is more than one list). And if you check and there is no abuse, gently talk to the worried Wikipedians so they will trust you and Misplaced Pages, and try to make sure things like blocking of editors because of IRC/"secret mailing list discussions" don't happen again. Of course, if there is abuse, you must deal with it.

If things like the "SlimVirgin is a spy" and the "secret mailing list" get into the news, even if they are not true, it is bad for Misplaced Pages. Like I said above, if Wikipedians are worried about the "secret mailing list", even if there is no abuse, it is a bad sign. Can you see this year's ArbCom elections? Wikipedians ask the candidates about "secret evidence" and only 2 candidates have over 80% support, meaning that because of this, they lose faith in ArbCom. By the way, I agree that "people should really really be careful about what sources of information they accept" and if you tell them nicely, I think they will agree with you. (Can someone with better English make a list of my points so it is easier to discuss?) --Kaypoh (talk) 04:44, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Or maybe he's a bad leader and Misplaced Pages is one of the biggest websites despite rather than because of him. It is interesting that he threatened Giano with a ban by saying "You have caused too much harm to justify us putting up with this kind of behavior much longer." I wonder who the "us" is here - is he using pluralis majestatis or does he speak for the cabal? Because the community at large not only puts up with Giano but even supports him for the Arbcom, where he stands at 58% (and Jimbo has previously appointed people to the Arbcom who had less than 50% support). Bramlet Abercrombie (talk) 14:46, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Bramlet, I don't mind you being critical of me, but at least get your facts straight. I have never appointed anyone to ArbCom with less than 50% support.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:05, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I suppose you temporarily abdicated during the December 2004 election then? Bramlet Abercrombie (talk) 19:34, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Arbitration Committee Elections December 2004 says that the results were:

1. Theresa Knott 265 (51%) (term ends 31 December 2006)
2. Raul654 216 (42%) (term ends 31 December 2007)
3. Ambi 203 (39%) (term ends 31 December 2007)
4. Sannse 187 (36%) (term ends 31 December 2007)
5. Neutrality 171 (33%) (term ends 31 December 2007)
6. David Gerard 166 (32%) (term ends 31 December 2005)
7. Grunt 162 (31%) (term ends 31 December 2006)

WAS 4.250 (talk) 20:55, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh, goodness. I had forgotten that. That was under the old system, which I had completely forgotten. Under the new system, people are not eligible to be elected unless they get 50% support. I apologize for the error.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:23, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

As I understand it, under the old system (which predates my time on-wiki), voters either endorsed a candidate or did not. For purposes of these percentages, this would mean that if a voter didn't have an opinion about the person one way or the other, it would be tantamount to opposing him or her. Virtually no one is ever going to exceed 50% under that methodology and those results really aren't comparable to those under the current support/oppose system. Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:59, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

NYB is right. That election used the system that was set up for Wikimedia Board elections. 51% percent of everybody who voted voted for Theresa, 42% of everybody who voted voted for Raul, etc. Not really comparable at all. Mike R (talk) 22:46, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

It's true that the numbers aren't quite comparable, but I think 50% should have been required under the old system too; the candidates in 2004 were just bad. If they couldn't get 50% that means a majority were either opposed to or indifferent about them (or didn't know them at all, but that was hardly much the case for Raul etc.), and I think a trustable Arbcom candidate should have the active wholehearted support of a majority. Another important difference, by the way, was that the voting was secret under the old system. With open voting, some people may refrain from opposing certain people to avoid getting on their bad side. Bramlet Abercrombie (talk) 23:07, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

• Thanks for all you for supportive comments but quite frankly whether Jimbo thinks I'm a troll or an asset to the project is neither here nor there (unless you are Jimbo - incidentally, it was the first time he had ever spoken to me, and I took it as a threat and an insult) as I said earlier here and I think many are becoming very tired of these gossiping people, we need Jimbo to be in touch with those actually writing the encyclopedia not those who are here to achieve rank and position, if one wants a uniform and to give orders go and become a traffic warden. I am sick of seeing the same people shouting and ranting about from page to page, problem to problem, always with an amazing opinion or view yet never stopping to write a page. Is this an encyclopedia or a sycophantic pseudo-royal court in terminal decline? Giano (talk) 23:04, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Well as an active contributor to this encyclopedia, Giano, I am not impressed (with your whole attitude, and especially towards Jimbo, good contributors contribute, they don't use past contributions in order to try and demonstrate leverage). Thanks, SqueakBox 23:35, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I bet you are! Well find a diff to prove Jombo's latest accusation clearly stated by him above - "On the SlimVirgin "spy" allegation, and Jayjg using oversight (not checkuser)," I have never made either of those daft allegations - so why is he using them in reference to me. Giano (talk) 23:39, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

The original poster to this thread brought up those allegations. And, I agree with Giano's "traffic warden" comment. Cla68 (talk) 23:45, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

(ecx2)To be fair Giano, I think Jimbo was talking about Slim and Jay *after* having talked about you; I don't think he was trying to associate you with them or allegations about them. —Cronholm 23:47, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

So he did nor call me a Troll either? Giano (talk) 23:49, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't even wanna go there. It would probably be best if that topic died its natural death. (It has been discussed ad naseum on this page, arbcom, and arbcom elctions). —Cronholm 23:52, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

• It is ironic that someone who has nominated himself for arbcom and is running a strong campaign for election should speak contemptuously of those who are "here to achieve rank and position." Raymond Arritt (talk) 02:38, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

  Not really. He's seeking rank and position, but that's not why he's here. --Carnildo (talk) 05:44, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

• I think you wil find this is Jimbo's page and you will also find it is the first time I have raised the subject here. Seeing as I am the most concerned, if you don't "wanna go there" I suggest you go some place else. Giano (talk) 23:55, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Let me put it another way, I don't think that bring this up here, in this particular forum, will shed any light on an already messed up situation. The community has been polarized by the goings on of the past month and I don't think that my answer to your question would be in any way productive.—Cronholm 00:00, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Giano, its because this is Jimbo's page that you find people like me responding to you here, and your response to Cronholm typifies the real problem here. Thanks, SqueakBox 00:07, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Look guys, Giano has a right to feel the way he does about Jimbo's comments and a right to express his feelings to Jimbo on Jimbo's talk page. Jimbo is a signficant leader in this project to the extent that remarks that he has made in the past have become de facto policy. So, if he accuses a productive editor of trolling, then that editor has a right to seek clarification and further discussion if he wants to. If you want to find a "real" problem, look at the post that started this thread. Cla68 (talk) 00:15, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I fully agree that Giano has a right to his opinion and would not dream of telling him to shut up, but I have a right to my opinion too, as do you Cla, as does Cronholm. Jimbo certainly is a significant leader, and our leader as voluntary wikipedian workers, which is why I am here contributing to this discussion. Perhaps Giano would care to address his concerns directly to Jimbo via e-mail, chat or any of the other off-wikipedia tools available to us all, but if he is going to address these concerns in this public forum, and given Jimbo is our boss, he must expect the likes of Cronholm and myself to publicly disagree with him. Thanks, SqueakBox 00:25, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

(ec) Are you saying that that post is a problem or describes a problem? In any case I never said Giano didn't have the right to bring up his issues here. By the same token, I have the right to speak my mind without being belittled or told to leave. Just FYI, I voted for Giano in the arbcom election and I have followed this whole debacle very closely. I also have strong feelings about this entire fiasco. However, I feel that posting on Jimbo's talkpage, especially on a topic as emotionally charged as this, never helps that situation move towards a peaceable resolution. If Giano really wants to discuss this with Jimbo then he should email him and discuss this one on one. Jimbo can't really post here without his words becoming fodder. This isn't to say that Critsism of Jimbo isn't possible if done in the right way (see WAS's "Devil's advocate" post in the latest archive of this page), but I don't see that happening here. —Cronholm 00:29, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

The problem from the original post appears that the community is concerned about the way that Jimbo handles certain issues, and his remarks to Giano are related to that question. A lot of people are concerned about Jimbo's remarks to Giano, so I don't think it's inappropriate for Giano to bring it up here. Jimbo also could have chosen email to make those remarks to Giano, but he didn't, instead choosing a public forum to make them in. So, Giano can also seek further clarification in a public forum, especially because others besides him are probably concerned enough about it to want to view the resulting discussion. Cla68 (talk) 00:34, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Cla, I am not sure what you mean by the community and lots of people, both would equally apply to Giano. WAS made some very good comments earlier here about how Jimbo is basically now in the position where he needs supporters to help him (paid or otherwise) and to advise him. That is not a criticism of Jimbo's behaviour but a reality of being famous in 2007. And Jimbo is in a much harder position than Giano in all this, precisely because he is the successful innovator and leader of wikipedia so lets see some maturity from Giano (I bet he is capable of it). Thanks, SqueakBox 00:42, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't being nosistic by using the words "lots" because I have seen Jimbo's remarks to Giano discussed by more than a few editors. Yes, I understand that Jimbo's position is difficult. But, we rely on him for leadership because of the position that he has chosen to take in the project, and it isn't inappropriate to ask him for clarification. I think you're defending your involvement in this discussion. I don't personally mind you adding your opinion, I'm just responding that I don't think Giano is acting inappropriately here. Cla68 (talk) 00:56, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Here is the thread. Cla I am one of those people (people with concerns) you mention, as you can see from my post in that thread, but I didn't pursue the issue in a way that IMO could possibly be disruptive to an already disrupted page and community. —Cronholm 00:52, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Folks, I don't want to discourage you too much, but the information content in the crisis-management algorithm used by Jimbo could be replaced by a shell script. A small shell script. You're about to see a command performance in the latest scandal. It's laudable to raise your concerns about the lack of openness and transparency. But you have essentially zero ability to affect it. If you leave, you will simply be replaced. I often get flack for being critical of Misplaced Pages. The sort of disempowerment demonstrated in this thread is one of the reasons for my views. -- Seth Finkelstein (talk) 05:46, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

It does not matter that a so called valuable editor leaves here and there because someone or something pissed them off. After all this projects transcends all of us and our life times as well and somebody else will take their place in due course. People dropping off and on are part of the process but that is not the fundamental issue facing wikipedia. It is as a project that mirrors the entire humanities collective effort at refinement it also has the same pitfalls. Any anthropologist will tell you that humanity always starts any project, process or idea at it s basic level as simple endeavor and then will refine it and make it really a complex structure only to bring it down to its it’s basic elements once again. This process is not always pretty or even straightforward. Take a look at Iraq, people there began their quest as simple farmers only to give us everything that we cherish today writing, governance, religion, cities etc but today it is back to being caveman’s barbarism. Take a language for example, a simple dialect of cattle rising, horse racing, and quarrelsome nomads becomes refined as Sanskrit only to break down in to 800 languages. Wikipedai’ s basic problem is that, articles starts from a stub then to become refined if they are lucky to be picked up by someone or some ones only to loose their refinement with time. There might be thousands of exceptions to that but you cannot deny the nagging feeling most of us have about our contributions, that unless some one or some ones guard them like a hawk, the witling down of the quality is a continuous never ending process. How to do you prevent this or is it even possible to prevent that? Or will Misplaced Pages go the way of Iraq and Sanskrit like all collective human endeavors just a bunch of wasted work few hundred years from now ? Taprobanus (talk) 20:58, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Professional PR help

Get professional PR help. The responses thus far do not inspire confidence. Don't flame Seth. He's doing a great service to Misplaced Pages by pointing these things out while you still have time to do something about them. - Jehochman 18:00, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

FYI

COGden has filed an ArbCom case concerning WP:NOR here. I am letting you know because the heart of his complaint is this:

Misplaced Pages's WP:NOR policy was created in 2003, after consultation with Jimbo, to ensure editors "stick to those sources". It's a simple rule. However, over the course of the NOR article's recent history, a few editors have gradually replaced this simple rule with a complicated framework derived from historiography

(By the way, I happen not to agree with the reference to "historigraphy," I am not at all sure why GOGden thinks this. An alternate account of the history of the policy - which I drafted, and which was commented on for about a week before there was consensus to add it to the article, is here: Misplaced Pages:No original research/history)

The reason I call this to your attention is that some people could construe COGden's argument to be that only you dictate Misplaced Pages policy, or that any change to Misplaced Pages must have your consent.

Anyway, he brought your name into the argument, so I thought you should know if you aren't already aware, Slrubenstein | Talk 15:01, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion

I am really sorry if i dont know what im doing here and i dont... but you guys should have a forums (if you do plz give me the url) but i mean if you guys are too busy, i could make it as long as you finance the forums... It would also keep vandalism down... the main reason there is vandalism is because people are bored and have nothing to do... so plz check this out.. im also going to make this a help topic under my talk... so thanks for the help and WIKI ROCKS

--Mr kc (talk) 15:33, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Interesting Article - "Wiki-government"

called "Wiki-government". It mentions Misplaced Pages among other sites to promote the idea that "laity" can really participate directly in making decsions without utter chaos. Seems like an intersting article. Any thoughts?Thelmadatter (talk) 15:48, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Aktion gegen Misplaced Pages

Und wieder wurde eine klassische österreichiche Speise von Deutschen gelöscht, irgendwann ist Schluss, wir pfeifen in Österreich auf die Deutsche Misplaced Pages jetzt gibt es eine Aktion gegen Misplaced Pages. Das ist kein Scherz. Es geht nicht nur um Fleischknödel, sondern um österreichische Artikel im allgemein, wir lassen uns das von den Deutschen und dir nicht länger gefallen. Es reicht! Du wist noch von uns in den Medien hören, jetzt ist Schluss mit lustig, und Geld willst du auch aus Österreich? Misplaced Pages ist einfach nur peinlich, lächerlich und falsch! Du hast jetzt Feinde in Österreich, also besuche es nie wieder! --212.183.42.226 (talk) 02:38, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Why would we want to visit Austria, anyway? Certainly not for the food!

In die USA fährt aber auch niemand wegen des Essens ;) Achjee, arme unterdrückte Ösis...--87.185.225.192 (talk) 13:50, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Hier in der USA essen wir Hamburger und Frankfurter als Mittagessen, und manchmal auch Wiener. ;) Durova 13:53, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Barbaren! --87.185.225.192 (talk) 14:04, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Waren die Barbaren auch Kannibalen? Ihr Vandalen! ;) Achates (talk) 14:12, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

In Australien haben wir viel besser schmecken, die "Kanga Bangers und Mash". :) Orderinchaos 17:16, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

New Cade Metz article in The Register

I assume you've already heard about this, but thought I'd post it just in case . Joshdboz (talk) 02:57, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

His muck-raking is beneath contempt. Did you steal Cade Metz's wife or something, Jimbo? Rockpocket 05:08, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry to disagree with you, Rockpocket. While the first two El Reg articles were tabloidesque and somewhat over the top, this article is written pretty straight. The links all work to real articles in reliable sources. There were unanswered questions back in the summer when Doran left the Foundation. At the end of the day, we have a convicted felon whose list of convictions included financial crimes, handling the finances of an important non-profit organization. At the least, it calls into question the employment and management policies of the WMF (anyone handling money needs to be bondable, at least). At worst, there may actually be a financial problem related to her employment. The audit promised for the end of September has still not materialized.

On the other hand, I do not think this is really a problem for Jimbo to have to explain. I believe this is the problem of the WMF Board of Directors, who are directly responsible for hiring staff and maintaining fiduciary control of the Foundation's finances. Risker (talk) 05:24, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Assuming he has got his facts right (and that is an assumption not particularly supported by his record) this article in particular does raise some valid concerns. However, its clear that this isn't the work of a neutral journalist, this is the work of someone with a axe to grind. I would suggest we all treat it as such. Rockpocket 05:35, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I would say the essence of the story has been in practice confirmed by the evasive and distancing response from the higher-ups. Please also note that flaming Misplaced Pages is one thing, but accusing a specific living person of criminal conduct, in the UK, is covered by STRICT libel laws. So even if you think the journalist has a axe to grind, you can't rightly dismiss the content on that basis -- Seth Finkelstein (talk) 05:57, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Evasive and distancing? In what way? I see nothing evasive or distancing at all in saying the plain truth. The plain truth is, if true, the article presents information that I knew nothing about before this. It's a sad story, if true, but fortunately not of much consequence.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 06:39, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I was tempted to make a subtle joke in reply, but irony and dry remarks don't travel well on the Net. So, to be tedious, look what I wrote "... in practice confirmed by the evasive and distancing response from the higher-ups". And what does Jimmy Wales reply? "The plain truth is, if true, the article presents information that I knew nothing about before this.". That's funny, in a gallows-humor kind of way. Yes, that's evasive and distancing! In this context, responses along the lines of almost literally "I know nothing! Nothing!", mean the story is basically correct and people are running for cover. Given how the reporter has been treating Misplaced Pages, if there was serious error in the charges, the higher-ups would be at the very least be flaming him into cinders, and likely talking libel lawsuit. Note, Jimmy, pre-emptively, please don't say I'm trolling for point this out, it's barkingly obvious. Your problem is the mass media explosion of this in the next few days, not my minor observations on it. -- Seth Finkelstein (talk) 07:22, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

As usual, Seth, you make no sense whatsoever. There is nothing evasive about saying, gee, how about that story, that was a shock to me. The story contained a ton of new information which, if true, was completely unknown to me before. Somehow you take that to be a confirmation of the story? How could it be? What can I say about it? If you ask me if I think the Register story is true, I would have to say "I think it probably is" for all the reasons that others have articulated. The Register is a trashy tabloid, but as others have pointed out, if this story is not true, then it would be a clearcut and egregious case of libel. At the same time, I can only repeat in a totally NON-evasive and NON-distancing manner that the revelations in the Register story were in fact revelations, not something I knew about beforehand.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:24, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh, c'mon Jimmy. It's one thing to say there was information in the story that was new to you. But given the circumstances of her departure, you almost certainly knew whether or not the story was likely true. If the story wasn't true, the higher-ups would have defended her character strongly. Nobody did. You didn't. Hence, in practice, the story was true. Inference by damning with no praise. That's all I'm saying, against the people who doubted it because of the past history with _The Register_. I understand now that there's a confidentiality agreement that limits what you can say. But I don't think it obligates you to pretend nobody notices what's going on. Sorry, if I'm doing something wrong here, remember, I'm bad at politics. -- Seth Finkelstein (talk) 20:05, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Of course, because the "higher-ups" don't wish to indulge the attack-journo with the chip on his shoulder, that means he must be right, right? I'm not dismissing his content because of his bias, I'm dismissing him because his obvious bias has led to gross misrepresentation in the recent past. For example, its pretty obvious you have a serious axe to grind, Seth, but your content is generally accurate enough so I wouldn't dismiss your columns on that basis. Rockpocket 06:23, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the compliment, Rockpocket. I believe the bit of knowledge of journalism that you're missing is that while the rules of journalism allow for all sort of workaday distortion and misrepresentation, criminal convictions are a whole different matter. Again, especially in the UK, that is subject to tough libel law in a way the average sensationalist article is not -- Seth Finkelstein (talk) 07:22, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

You are welcome ;) On the face of it our wiki-bashing friend at The Register would appear unlikely to risk a lawsuit by making such libelous unsubstantiated claims, but he has been moving in circles that have a history of some pretty awful behaviour, so you'll excuse me if I remain suspicious until a respectable source confirms it. Rockpocket 07:59, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Once more, I'd say the higher-ups have in essence confirmed it. Another tip-off you may not have caught is when they start talking in specific about not having personal knowledge. That's a big red flag right there. Don't confuse this with the typical wikidrama, which ordinarily involves personal nastiness, but not the legal system. When an organization has someone as COO who allegedly had "convictions for passing bad checks, theft, petty larceny," - that's major scandal. I suspect you're not grasping how serious this matter is, how it's orders of magnitude beyond the past months' events. Jimmy will probably get very mad at me if I start outlining all the implications, so I'll forbear. I'll just stress, don't think of this as the standard flamefest, she was the Chief Operating Officer of the Wikimedia Foundation. -- Seth Finkelstein (talk) 08:40, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't see how it is a major scandal, given that as far as we know right now, there were no crimes committed at the foundation. It is not a good story, obviously. :) We have no confirmation or disconfirmation that the story is true or not, although I personally see no reason to think it is not true. It's a sad story.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:24, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not going there. Not worth it. -- Seth Finkelstein (talk) 20:05, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I guess if enough people declare its a major scandal then it becomes a major scandal. Thats how those scandal things tend to work. Personally, I don't see it, though I'm sure those who want it to be one, will. I don't know Jimbo, but he seems like a nice guy and his comments have always appeared to be balanced and sincere (I don't know Cade Metz either, but I can't say the same about my experience of him). Call me naive, but when otherwise decent folks tell me they don't have personal knowledge it crosses my mind that they don't have personal knowledge, rather than that they are being evasive and distant. I guess WP:AGF isn't taught at journalism 101. Rockpocket 08:58, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, Rockpock. I think it is important that I not be in any way evasive or distancing. I think it important to confront the story directly and with simple and open honesty. And the simple fact is, I was shocked when I read the story in The Register. Seth wants to imply all kinds of dark things but that's because Seth is Seth.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:24, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Or maybe it's because of the inexplicable secrecy that was made about her departure. Maybe you can start with the honesty and explain why, if you didn't know of any scandal, the relevant Board resolution was not published? There must be something strange in there. If she just simply resigned for unspecified personal reasons, surely this would not have been hidden like that. Bramlet Abercrombie (talk) 19:54, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I'd take issue with the word "wants". Yes, I think unhappy thoughts. -- Seth Finkelstein (talk) 20:05, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Regretably, the last time I did any extensive public analysis of an issue, which ironically I thought was pound-for-pound favorable to Jimbo, he was extremely displeased. So I'll just have to repeat that I'm not going to go there right now, it's not worth it. The legal matters will almost certainly be explored fully in the next few days in many media sources. The status of the person involved and the nature of the charges means such issues exist. And indeed, ideally journalists practice the exact opposite of WP:AGF - one saying is "If your mother says she loves you, check it out" (yeah, yeah, I know, more honored in the breach than in the observance, but that's the theory). -- Seth Finkelstein (talk) 09:30, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't know what "COO" means, but the post seems at least moderately important. And a fair number of people around here seem to think that WMF is at least moderately important. Thus the idea that a COO of WMF is worth an article isn't obviously unreasonable to me, though I can't get worked up about it. Anybody interested in her articleworthiness can read a rapid discussion of this matter (or a closely related one) here. A lot of sensible stuff seems to be said within it, though I find the rather feverish tone (or so it appears) rather surprising. -- Hoary (talk) 09:24, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

She isn't notable as far as I can tell. Chief Operating Officer--->(COO).--MONGO (talk) 09:31, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

At the very least, this makes the Foundation's legal counsel look like he doesn't even bother showing up for work, as unknowledgeable as he appeared to be in the article. At the worst, it makes the Foundation look like they were engaged in a cover-up to try to hide the story. If so, how are we supposed to trust the Foundation's "investigations" of other issues, like the Jayjg Oversight abuse allegations? Cla68 (talk) 11:03, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

• One should be very cautious of discussing this here until there is some sort official statement of where the WF stand on this - or that the very serious allegations against this woman are/are not proven founded. It may be that Jimbo and the WF did indeed no nothing of these allegations until this article was published. The truth will undoubtedly come out but it will not be instantaneous or hurried by speculation here. We try not to mention legal threats at Misplaced Pages, bit this is one of those rare occasions when the real world and its legal processes could become linked with our nice safe world here. So I advise extreme caution in anything anyone says in print here. Giano (talk) 11:05, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Thank you, Giano.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:24, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

LOL, chaps. This is all completely true. The woman's in prison - the Register have got their facts absolutely correct. I've known about this for yonks but didn't tell anyone.

The really amazing thing is that nobody from WMF seems to have known. I remember obliquely quizzing Anthere about this on IRC one merry evening - she either genuinely did not know what had happened or she lied through her teeth to me. What was passing through her mind, I don't know. Someone must have known though...Sue Gardner? She basically seems to have got Carolyn's job. The jail records are pretty much all available on the web, though...hell, I've even got them still bookmarked AFAIK. Cheers, Moreschi 14:02, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Moreschi, somehow I sincerely doubt that. ⇒SWATJester 15:43, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Moreschi, if you knew about this, I regret that you never told me about it.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:24, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

• Mistakes are made everyday. People get over it and move on. Simple; not painless, but KISS. Like a Rainbow (talk) 16:46, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Yet another public black eye for Misplaced Pages.↔NMajdan•talk 19:09, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Success makes so many people hate you. I wish it wasn't that way. It would be wonderful to enjoy success without seeing envy in the eyes of those around you. - Marilyn Monroe Durova 20:10, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Due dilligence in placing Carolyn Doran in charge of WikiMedia finances

"I know nothing about this" is the wrong answer, Jimbo. "I will investigate the due diligence in placing Carolyn Doran in charge of WikiMedia finances and will get back to you on that. I am sure we hired a reputable firm to do a background check, but I'll have to ask Sue to get the actual facts. Also, the current audit so far has uncovered no fiscal irregularities." would have been the right answer if it were true. Can you give that answer, Jimbo? WAS 4.250 (talk) 16:55, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Of course that's my answer. All I am telling you is that the Register article contained information that shocked me. Of course we are looking into it carefully. And currently, the Wikimedia Foundation does background checks on employees, etc. And the current audit so far has uncovered no missing money, etc., etc.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:12, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Wow. Thank you. I feel such a sense of relief. Really. I just read that Goodwin said "the WMF is unable to comment any further because of continuing legal constraints" and "There are legal constraints that apply to the Board, to staff, and to anyone acting formally on the Foundation's behalf." which is better than "I know nothing about it" and was coming here to amend my comment to say so; thinking that maybe you could not say what you just did for legal reasons. I am so very happy that the current audit so far has uncovered no missing money. To me that is the key thing that will make this an "Ops, we should have done a background check, but in the end it was just an embarrassment from before we had people who knew what they were doing running things but now we are in capable hands" story versus a major scandal - which is what it would be if you were not able to say the current audit so far has uncovered no missing money. Thanks for clearing that up. I feel so much better. WAS 4.250 (talk) 19:52, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I will go even further. If the audit uncovers any evidence of theft, I will personally donate out of my own pocket to cover whatever is missing. I feel pretty confident doing that even though the audit is still underway.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:13, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Google vs Misplaced Pages

Hi Jimbo. Do you know the last creation by Google? I refer to Knol. Can this be the Google's response to Wikia Search? I want to assume good faith by Google, but... ;). Cheers. --Emijrp (talk) 20:04, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Cool customer

Hi Jimbo, I just have to chime in that I find you to be a very cool customer. Nothing seems to phase or ruffle your feathers at all. With all the "goings on" around here I guess you have to be :) . Anyways, cheers and happy holidays, --Tom 20:12, 14 December 2007 (UTC)