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Censorship

I do not know of any Wiki rule or policy that gives one editor the right to censor the contribution of another editor. If you have a problem with the contribution I am trying to make to the Clairvoyance article, please intelligently and articulately communicate your concerns on my Talk page. Simply clicking on Undo, as you have done before, is not science. It is censorship. If it continues I will have to commence DR action. Best wishes.RAmesbury (talk) 20:30, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

NYC January meetup

Sezz Medi certainly seems like a decent place. Is it the type of back room that we would have to reserve in advance? In case you want any more ideas, I'm going to apologize in advance for insulting your knowledge of the neighborhood and point you to the Wikitravel page on the Upper West Side. Also, are there any other non-restaurant activities/places on the Upper West Side that people might be interested in visiting? Another thing, I'm going to be mostly off-wiki on a trip for the next week or two, so I'm going to leave some instructions shortly at Misplaced Pages talk:Meetup/NYC on how to send out the invites if I don't get back by December 1 or so. Thanks.--Pharos (talk) 03:33, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

We'll probably have to wait till a week or two before to get a good estimate of attendance at the restaurant. By all means go ahead with the possibility of a tour at AMNH (and I'm a big fan of what Tyson has done with the Hayden) or the Columbia Libraries.--Pharos (talk) 20:57, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

My only concern would be that last time very few people (three of us) came to the 'pre-meetup', though this may only be because it was outdoors (the Brooklyn Botanic Garden) and the weather was borderline. I just wouldn't want to disappoint any people who arranged a special tour if the turnout was low.--Pharos (talk) 15:40, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Any updates on this front? I'm going to be sending out the mass-invites very soon.--Pharos 03:02, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Mea culpa

Yea, verily, forgive me; for I have taken the bait. Raymond Arritt (talk) 20:32, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Admin

Why won't they let you become one? Anthon01 (talk) 18:20, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

How about you? Are you pushing the opposite or searching for balance? P.S. Should I have responded here or on my page? --Anthon01 (talk) 18:45, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

How do 'you' determine what a Psuedoscience is how do you handle the transition stage that some Pseudosciences will undergo towards becoming a science? Are acupuncture and chiropractic pseudosciences? --Anthon01 (talk) 19:02, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Hello

If you need some support putting the rational view on pseudoscience articles then I'm always willing to help. Nick mallory (talk) 02:35, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Willo'-the wisp vs Ghost light

The former is found in swampy lands, while the latter is found in places that are not swampy at all. The Marfa Lights are found in a desert environment. Swamp gas was used as a explain all panacea by the US govt. and military for nearly everything paranormal until strange things were reported in space, and other places that are not swampy at all. One theory about some Ghostlights are that they're some kind of electrical discharge similar to ball lightning, generated by quake faults running through piezoelectric minerals, such as quartz and quartzite. 65.163.112.205 08:41, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

removal of speculation from cold fusion

Thanks for removing all of that speculative nonsense from cold fusion. Would you mind looking over hydrino theory and Randell Mills? These two are about a particular form of transcendent pseudoscience, which unfortunately seems to have at least one lackey - User:Pcarbonn, who is also very active on cold fusion. I've been trying to hold the line, but another set of hands might help. Michaelbusch 20:14, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

User:Michaelbusch

I see you've taken him under your wing. I told him that you are wonderful. Hopefully you can shepherd him through any struggles so that he does not succumb to Wikifrustration. All my best. Cheers. Dlohcierekim 23:05, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

ArbCom vote

Hello! What exactly do you see as anti-science about me? I don't feel this is true and would like to clear up any misconceptions. Thanks, --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 16:48, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Hi - thanks for your voting comment. I have posted a response -- Manning (talk) 03:38, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Force GA hold

Thank you for letting us know about your concerns. I have responded to your message on the GAN talk page. Regards, EyeSerene 21:34, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

HM

Apologies for incorrectly intertwining our respective issues with the ArbCom's decisions. Your point regarding accomodationism is well taken. Antelan 22:14, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Apology

I am sorry I didn't show Assume Good Faith with your repeated redirection of Ghost light without consensus. I don't quite follow how WP:AGF can be used as rational for redirection of a page, but I'm going to stay out of the page. I hope the issue is resolved in a civilized manner. -JWGreen (talk) 18:14, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Intro, Re.:Will-o'-the-wisp

The intro does NOT adequately explain why is that there is NO swampy lands where Ghostlights are seen. The Marfa Lights are seen in a desert area, as is a similar light in IRAN, a desert country. This may cause people to believe that Misplaced Pages does'nt know the difference between a ghostlight and a Will-o'-the-wisp. Is Marfa, Texas and Iran swampy ? 65.163.115.114 (talk) 17:24, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Do You....

...live near a (any) area(s) that has one or more in it ? I am currently in a location that has four of these things near me. The lights are at Gurdon, Arkansas, Marfa, Texas, Crosset, Arkansas, and there is another one in Texas, and I've got word of one in the Missouri "Bootheel". Would it be "Original Research" to go out and see these "ghostlights" and place info obtained on here ? 65.163.115.114 (talk) 21:49, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Force

Thanks for the note (and apologies for the late reply; I don't Wiki much at the weekend). The consensus at WP:GAR seems to be for a renomination, so if that continues, once the process there has run its course I'll renom if noone else gets there first. All the best, EyeSerene 12:39, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree with you - there are elements of WP:POINT (although maybe not WP:REDFLAG) going on here. I think I can see where he's coming from (I've got a Physics background too), but I also think in the context of the article his objection is not as important as he believes it is. I'll comment in a similar vein elsewhere; maybe we can get some compromise before this gets out of hand. EyeSerene 10:37, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Request for mediation not accepted

A Request for Mediation to which you were are a party was not accepted and has been delisted. You can find more information on the case subpage, Misplaced Pages:Requests for mediation/Cold fusion. For the Mediation Committee, Daniel 01:00, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

NYC Meetup updates?

I don't mean to pester you by posting this again, but do you have any updates on Misplaced Pages:Meetup/NYC#Other possibilities? It's about thirty days from now, and if we're planning anything else, it would be best if we informed people about it as far in advance as possible (but if it'll take a week or two more to schedule, that's fine also). Thanks.--Pharos (talk) 07:37, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Leadbeater and Besant

You might want to have a look at what happened to the Charles Webster Leadbeater article as well. Ditto for this on the Annie Besant article. Cheers, DVdm (talk) 13:21, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

I have reported RAmesbury for making changes for which payment was offered on Anti-Relativity.com: . I thought you might be interested. Antelan 19:04, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Talk:Quackwatch - again

Thanks for trying to intervene in the disruptions to Talk:Quackwatch, but I hope you dont mind my reminding you that such discussions are best taken to another forum. You might also want to contribute to Talk:Quackwatch#Continued_disruption_of_talk_page or WP:ANI#Quackwatch_talk_page, which are both related. Additionally, an RFC/U might be appropriate at this point. --Ronz (talk) 20:14, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Ironically, another forum is in use. Not on the disruption, but related: Misplaced Pages:RSN#Quackwatch --Ronz (talk) 20:22, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

They're all-out baiting you. WP:HARASS and WP:NPA probably apply too. I appreciate your keeping cool in spite of it all. Probably the best thing is to WP:DNFTT. --Ronz (talk) 00:22, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I think you should take a break from Quackwatch. They're obviously getting to you, and you're starting to respond in a fashion to similar to their own. --Ronz (talk) 16:50, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Arbitration on cold fusion

Please note that you are cited in an arbitration request. See here. Pcarbonn (talk) 19:29, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Edit war

Let's all work together and stop the edit warring at Quackwatch. It is delicate right now and we are trying very hard to reach a consensus after long debate. I hope that you can help be part of the solution and refrain from future edit wars. Thanks! -- Levine2112 00:31, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Homeopathy AGAIN

Thanks for the help out. People are starting to get afraid of standing up to these nutjobs. Many of the SPOV admins are running scared after what happened to Adam Cuerden. I'm not sure how long we can fight without the help of truly neutral admins. OrangeMarlin 07:19, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Homeopathy

I have a question for you about the nature of plausibility over at Talk:Homeopathy#Plausibility. Curious Blue (talk) 07:20, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Meatpuppetry

I've already sought advice on the situation with Levine2112. Best not to accuse anyone of it at all. Even if you're absolutely sure, only the most blatant cases will ever get through WP:SSP (where an editor is clearly doing nothing at all other than just taking another editor's side). While you could probably convince others that these editors have been recruited to help Levine, and are being told what to say and when, it still isn't enough for WP:SSP. Best to take treat it as a behavioral issue. --Ronz (talk) 16:48, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

User:Peter morrell, et al.

I suggest you provide diffs, and at least a few for each editor. Something like you did for User_talk:Levine2112/archive5#Please_use_care_when_declaring_.22harassment.22 Levine would probably be enough. --Ronz (talk) 18:45, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

"appeal for help"

You asked at my talk about "where I received appeal for help"; it wasn't addressed to me personally, it was a note someone posted in some public place, e.g. a project talk page. At the time, I was unfamiliar with QW, you (although I think I've noticed your edits in the past), Levine2112, etc, so I didn't recognize any names and don't recall any. Probably it was the same place that Arthur Rubin heard about it, he's a mathematician also. I'll try to find it, it's a fair question. Pete St.John (talk) 19:17, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

It was the RFC, which is a section in the QW:talk page itself. Pete St.John (talk) 20:30, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

You posted on my talk page, and I replied, for convenience reproduced here:

You obviously have a problem with me

But I have no idea why you have a problem with me. Maybe you're upset that I criticized your attempt to get a "compromise" wording about the review by the pharmacist on QW. However, this is Misplaced Pages and criticisms of people's ideas and attempts happen all the time. Maybe you're upset that I wasn't involved in the fake "consensus" discussion that you had with yourself, Levine, Anthon01, and a number of other alt-med POV-pushers. I note that you had no way of knowing that the consensus was fake as you did not know the personalities or the sides involved at the time. You seem to make a singular point that people should be aware that QW is not peer-reviewed because QW discusses peer-review itself: however, such a criticism is not good for Misplaced Pages unless it can be directly sourced. I was a little appalled that there were recommendations to manufacture sources by posting to Slashdot or some other blog-forum. That seems to fly in the face of all sourcing conventions at Misplaced Pages You seem to have a very short fuse and have hit upon me as someone you want to take down. I'm sorry, but I don't know why you decided things got so personal. Can you explain? ScienceApologist (talk) 20:10, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

• One of the problems is that you make accusations (veiled or otherwise) faster than I can address them. This is the fastest-paced controversy I've been in so far, although others have had bad days.

1. Citing a reference for my claim that you accused me of tendentious editting. I overgeneralized the word; using it to characterize your characterization of me. So I'm trying to go through QW talk to piece together specifics, then explain myself at the ANI with them. One might note, that "I was a little appalled that there were recommendations to manufacture sources by posting to Slashdot" could be construed as implying my contribution was contrary to wiki policy, an example of what I overgeneralized as "tendentious" (when really I was thinking "contentious", btw). You may have had a good point there.

2. Citing a reference to the "request for help" I mentioned. It's this RFC. You may notice that my first edit to QW:talk was in the section labelled "A user has requested...".

3. Are you accusing me of being an alt-med-POV pusher?

4. I do, in fact, know why I have problems with you. (By knowledge I refer to sporadic proximate causes, in your editting, which I am working to document; I only have hypotheses about your philosophy or raison detre). I'm working on documenting it. Pete St.John (talk) 20:30, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I replied to your replies at my user space. Pete St.John (talk) 22:13, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

List of pseudoscience

There is a clear consensus on the talk page; see the section Talk:List_of_pseudosciences_and_pseudoscientific_concepts#Awaiting_wording_that_justifies_classification_here. On December 4th I suggested that we wait a week and then archive. There was general agreement. It's 12 days later. Hgilbert (talk) 18:36, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Quackwatch

You probably forgot. Remember the series of edits that CrohnieGal started? This was discussed . Please revert your last edit. Thank you. Anthon01 (talk) 03:17, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

The follwoing are excerpts from . CrohnieGal wrote, Why not just remove all of the Mission Statement? It's really not that important. Along with the removal of the Mission Statement remove the names of those who are supposed to be keeping watch over articles. IMHO, all of this is unnecessary, the title Mission and scope. If that is removed then the warring hopefully will stop, at least about this. --CrohnieGal 15:13, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I wrote, I think that's an idea worth considering. Anthon01 15:36, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Your wrote, I'm in favor of anything that makes this article have less text at this point. ScienceApologist 16:57, 15 December 2007 (UTC)"

Antelan wrote, Crohnie I think you've got a great point. Antelan 17:13, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Here is just after his talk page edit. Please note he removed all mention of the advisors. You have now replaced those advisors by putting them in another section of the article. Please revert the edit. Anthon01 (talk) 03:55, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Anthon01, on the talk page after my edit you stated, "I don't know that a consensus has been reached on the current text." Why are you speaking so aggressively to SA if you think this? I was the one who made the edit, and you don't see me vigorously defending it. These folks are trying to improve the article, just as I am. It will take time, but a good article will result. Antelan 06:47, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

I am not sure what you mean? How I am suppose to know that you are not vigorously defending the edit and what difference does it make whether you are defending it or not? I am not speaking aggressively. I'm simply reminding him of the agreement that he was a party to, understanding it was a major point of contention in the edit war that has been going on. Anthon01 (talk) 13:32, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Baumgardner

I just did a citation count on John Baumgardner and was quite startled at the results. He could have had a very good conventional career. I hadn't realised that--what a pity he got diverted into nonsense. DGG (talk) 07:33, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

AMNH tour

This is really coming out well. So, the tour would be of the astrophysics division? Theoretically, Wikipedians would best connect to physical archives and technology infrastructure, but it would probably be best in general to just go for whatever is most interesting; and I'm really ignorant of what else you might have in the back rooms of the astrophysics division, so use your best judgment. One thing I personally always wanted to see was the AMNH shelves of fossils and other specimens, but I realize that would be in a different division.

Your suggested start time seems good to me; noon might be more attractive to people than 11 AM — also we should give some thought to the ending-time, keeping in mind we have to get to Columbia by 2:30.

The sooner we can post a specific starting time and meet-up point (nevermind the specifics of what we see on the tour), the sooner we can collect signatures — I'll put a special section on the Misplaced Pages:Meetup/NYC page for the museum RSVPs. Thanks for all your work on this.--Pharos (talk) 22:26, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Hi. I am a Field Associate in Invertebrate Zoology, and a volunteer in (invertebrate) Paleontology, at AMNH. I live not very far away from AMNH. I can get 5 people in to the Museum for free if that is helpful, and can also get 5 free tickets to a special exhibit or whatever. However I don't think I can manage to get people behind the scenes in the fossil department on a weekend, because the person I work for is not there on a Sunday. But I could maybe ask around just in case another staff member might be up for it. Anyway, I am willing to help out in whatever way I can easily manage. Invertzoo (talk) 23:07, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

OK. I know a lot more about living mollusks than I do about fossil ones by the way. I will keep in touch and let you know if it seems I can get any behind the scenes access for that Sunday. It would help if I knew roughly how many people it might be. Invertzoo (talk) 13:45, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Shelves of living mollusks would be fun, too. Really, I think I would find it interesting to see any of the back rooms with giant rows of shelves storing various types of specimens (biological, mineralogical etc.) — or at least this is my cherished mental image of the behind-the-scenes of a natural history museum. As to attendance, I would plan for about 10 at this point, but when we set up the RSVPs we should get something more accurate.--Pharos (talk) 04:53, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

NYC Meetup

Hi,

I came across the NYC meetup link in the top section of a wikipedia page. I am from India but I am currently in New York City and would be here till the end of Jan. I am interested in attending the meetup. But I have never attended any wikipedia meetup. So, I am not really sure about the agenda of such meetups. Whether the meetups are more local in nature(nyc projects) or there are discussions on general wikipedia topics. I did see someone mentioning a talk on history of wikipedia on the meetup page. Gaurav1146 (talk) 04:00, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Sock puppets on the astrology page

Hey, so... someone, probably Rumbird or one of his cronies, seems to be using sock puppets on the astrology page in order to offset the consensus on the disputed paragraph in the opening. User:SciFiApostle appears to be the first one that was set up, probably in a lame attempt to mock your user name, and now the latest is this one User:Random-chess. The contribution history on both clearly shows that there is sock puppetry going on here. Do you want to do anything about this, or do we just have to endure the never ending edit wars? I'm sorry that many of the astrologers who end up on wikipedia are crazies. I've had to do battle with a few of them myself in the past, and I kind of lost interest in Misplaced Pages for a while as a result of it. We're not all crazy though, and I appreciate the work you have been doing on the astrology page to keep it 'on the level', so to speak. So, keep up the good work. --Chris Brennan (talk) 00:41, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

The problem is that I'm not really sure if Rumbird is the ringleader at this point. User 'Budfin' appears to be in on the latest round of reverts to that section of the article, and a new sock puppet named 'Ali the Munificent' appears to have been created recently as well. Without being able to identify who the ringleader is it is hard to launch a formal complaint. --Chris Brennan (talk) 06:57, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Close to arbcom violation

SA: I think that Talk:What_the_Bleep_Do_We_Know!?#Titles, especially the “ulterior agendas” remark, is very close to violating Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Martinphi-ScienceApologist#ScienceApologist_restricted, please be more careful. Thank you. — Rlevse • Talk • 19:36, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

And User:Martinphi of course gets a free pass for his disruption in spite of his arbcom restrictions. Nonetheless, SA, you should keep to the straight and narrow both because it's the right thing to do and because you don't want to give "them" ammunition. Raymond Arritt (talk) 19:45, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

See responses on my talk page. — Rlevse • Talk • 22:12, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I just noticed..

Thank you for the barnstar, what I nice surprise it was to see it there. I really appreciate it that people have realized I was trying to help everyone and the article. I now will try to mend some fences. Thanks again, --CrohnieGal 20:34, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Creationists and Homeopaths

You're one of the few editors that I've noticed that is like me, editing the bullshit out of Creationist and Alternative medicine articles. I've been working to getting Herpes zoster to FA, and I've noticed 2-4 faith healers (oops I mean alternative medicine types) who are trying to get their POV faith-based cruft into the article. The virologists editing the article aren't noticing them, because they usually stay away from the crap that we deal with. Do you mind helping keep the cruft out? You don't have to be an expert viruses, just an expert in the faith-healer objectives--you know, don't take medications, just drink monkey piss and you'll be perfect. OrangeMarlin 07:16, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

AMNH Tour

I am not going to be there for it, thanks though. See you at the meet! michfan2123 (talk) 03:00, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Hey ScienceApologist, I am not interested in the AMNH tour so much, but the CU library tour was tantalizing... what are the odds of that happening still? • Freechild'sup? 04:42, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

I am still trying to find out if I can get anyone behind the scenes in "my" sections of AMNH. As far as I can tell, the paleontology section will not be a possibility because it seems that no senior staff members will be in on that Sunday to "sign off" on it. I will try for invertebrate zoology, but that may well be the same problem. (Of course if there is anything in the public parts of the museum I can talk people through I will do so, but it could be that the astronomy stuff will take up all of the time available.) In any case if you ScienceApologist have any suggestions I will be glad to consider them. Thanks. Invertzoo (talk) 14:40, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

I am so psyched about this. AMNH & Hayden have been one of my loves since I was in grade school, and I visited them the first time in the 1950s. However, I am desolated about the destruction of the old Hayden Planetarium from 1935. It was a wonderful and beautiful building, and I hated to see it replaced by something so high tech. It's harder to find references to the Hayden now, since it seems overshadowed by Rose. Sorry if you all feel differently, but I have a thing for old buildings. Thanks so much for all this work in setting it up. — Becksguy (talk) 04:08, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Happy holidays!

I am just popping in to wish you and yours a very Happy and Healthy holiday! May 2008 bring everyone a wonderful year. Happy editing! --CrohnieGal 17:21, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Sometimes the good guys stand up

I hope you got a chance to read what Guy said here. Sometimes it's worth the effort. OrangeMarlin 05:52, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

2004 DoE panel on cold fusion

2004 DoE panel on cold fusion (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) is a personal essay on why the panel is wrong by a cold fusion advocate, and needs cleaning up. Can you help? Guy (Help!) 12:37, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Can't argue with science...

		The Original Barnstar
		And so it was spoken that "...The null hypothesis was rejected; SA is richly deserving of a Barnstar...", and behold, a barnstar fell from the heavens! — Dihydrogen Monoxide (Review) 00:05, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of Force

Hello, I just wanted to introduce myself and let you know I am glad to be reviewing the article Force you nominated for GA-status according to the criteria. This process may take up to 7 days. Feel free to contact me with any questions or comments you might have during this period. I have just begun the review of the article, it may take a little while to completely finish. SriMesh | talk 01:06, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Force article

Sure, I'd be glad to help on the force article, but I may not be able to get around to anything these next week as I am pretty busy, I'll just do what I can. For the free body diagram on the article, I have made a quick beta, just tell me what you think of it and what else needs to be done: http://commons.wikimedia.org/Image:Beta_of_Freebodydiagram2_pn.png Also, we probably should fix the the Free body diagram article as everything there is labled as Weight. -- penubag  02:30, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

For you

		The Defender of the Wiki Barnstar
		Because every time a fringe view gets undue weight the wiki dies a little. Guy (Help!) 09:19, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Hint: the answer is both

Which is more annoying/disruptive: Inventing new physics terms ("thermodynamic history") or abusing difficult to understand physics concepts ("quantum" anything)? Antelan 09:51, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Incivility

Regardless of what you think of the edits of others, the incivil language used in this edit and its summary are not acceptable. — Rlevse • Talk • 12:23, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

His comments were an accurate description. The concepts Whig is trying to push are indeed "garbage" and "drivel." No need to sugar-coat it; to do so might imply that those concepts have a tiny shred of credibility, which they do not. Raymond Arritt (talk) 18:14, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

lol tell that to the ArbComm--feline1 (talk) 18:26, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it is indeed uncivil to label another's editor's edits as "garbage" and "drivel". Obviously. Dlabtot (talk) 19:37, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, that's outright garbage and drivel you just wrote, Dlabtot. Sometimes people write garbage and drivel. I myself have done it. Have I just now been uncivil to myself? God, I think sometimes the civility plea is so lame! ScienceApologist (talk) 19:40, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

LOL. To answer your question, yes, it is rude and uncivil to purposely repeat rude and uncivil behavior, in a conscious effort to offend and annoy others. Dlabtot (talk) 19:59, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not consciously trying to offend or annoy. In fact, I believe what I'm trying to do is describe. Is civility now purely in the eye of the beholder? I thought intent was important. ScienceApologist (talk) 20:05, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

It's not really incivil to call a spade a spade... -- RG 19:47, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

It is not in any way uncivil to mercilessly edit fringe viewpoints inserted into an article. It is not in any way uncivil to demonstrate why they are fringe theories and in what way they contradict basic principles of science. Misplaced Pages policies are pretty clear, however, about insulting people or their edits. Dlabtot (talk) 19:59, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't know about anybody else, but this is the first I heard that we aren't allowed to "insult" people's edits. I mean, sometimes people make bad edits. Am I simply not supposed to talk about it? Or am I supposed to lie and say that they aren't bad when they bring them up on the talkpage? Seriously, are we going to resort to policing civility that carefully? Funny, I thought that Misplaced Pages was not censored. ScienceApologist (talk) 20:05, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it is true that insults are uncivil. Not just in wikispace but in all contexts. This is a basic concept of social interaction - so basic that I deem it to be beyond my ability to explain to you. Dlabtot (talk) 20:16, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, as they say in my discipline, if you can't explain it then you might as well be wrong. ScienceApologist (talk) 20:18, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Considering the level of success you've enjoyed in attempting to explain things to Whig, you might want to reconsider the utility of that adage. Dlabtot (talk) 20:23, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

There is no convincing true believers. I explained myself perfectly well. If he likes to stick shit in his ears and bury his head in the sand, that's his problem. ScienceApologist (talk) 20:25, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for passing Europa's GA

But Sandy Georgia has commented on the talk page that the pass was incomplete. Not sure what needs to be done so if you could connect with her on the issue, I'd appreciate it. Once again, thank you very much! Serendious 18:08, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Howdy, and general discussion on Civility

Howdy. Saw your post on Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Rational Skepticism re discussion of appropriate sources at Talk:What the Bleep Do We Know!? and commented on that. Came here to say hi. Saw some discussion of Civility issues on this page.
I've been discussing Civility with various Misplaced Pages editors lately, and have come up with a "boilerplate" paragraph to use when the topic comes up -- User_talk:Writtenonsand#Civility.
IMHO at its most basic Misplaced Pages:Civility comes down to, "Participate in a respectful and civil way. ... Wikipedians define incivility roughly as personally targeted behavior that causes an atmosphere of greater conflict and stress."
Another way to consider it is as a question of rhetoric: It's one thing to be right, and it's another thing to convince people that you're right. Civility is a useful technique for helping to convince people -- and on the other hand incivility is quite likely to make it more difficult to convince others that we're right.
It's also extremely important to remember that civility is not a 1-on-1 matter -- every post on Misplaced Pages is likely to be read by dozens of anonymous users, and anything that makes us look good by comparison with those who disagree with us might help to convince them that we're right. -- Writtenonsand (talk) 22:57, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

If you spent more time dancing with the fringe theorists, you might change your step. I actually find it refreshing when people invoke WP:SPADE, because it's a reminder that there are people who actually understand and cherish (insert topic here) enough to become righteously angry. Antelan 11:33, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

'righteous anger' has no place at Misplaced Pages, obviously. Dlabtot (talk) 17:18, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I second that. These editors that take it upon themselves to "defend" a position, be that a mainstream position or not, are at the same fault as those that defend fringe theories. There is no need for "vigilantism" in Misplaced Pages, as there are many resources available to us: the extended community of editors. Ask for help instead of fighting the hordes alone. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:24, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I would even venture and say that these attempts to be the "sole defender of science", or "calling a spade a spade", are counterproductive. SA: you may consider the possibility that you may be doing more harm than good with your attitude. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:27, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

No, no, no. SA is doing a service with the attitude that is brought to each one of their edits. When you coddle these fringe POV pushers for too long, pages get completely destroyed. For example, look at the homeopathy article. And every article on intelligent design. Or the articles on creationism. Or maybe the articles on astrology. All of these articles are in a state of constant attack from people who don't have to worry about constructively editing because we, at Misplaced Pages, don't want to hurt their feelings by invoking WP:SPADE and would rather nurse them along until they are eventually banned for being a sock or a DE but only after they have pissed off the royal lot of editors minding the pages in question. When people are hellbent on believing their own fringe beliefs, no amount of civility will ever convince them otherwise. Baegis (talk) 19:11, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I tend to agree with Jossi here. Not because I give a damn about the delicate sensibilities of fringe POV-pushers, but because in the long run it's a more effective strategy to take the high road. If "our side" stays civil, it makes "their side" look even worse when we go through RfC, ANI, and so on. Raymond Arritt (talk) 19:25, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Baegis, your rejection of WP:CIVIL is duly noted. However, it remains Misplaced Pages policy. Raymond arritt, I would also like to note that Misplaced Pages is not a battleground. You might want to remember that when you start thinking in terms of 'your side' and 'their side'. Dlabtot (talk) 19:39, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

For interest's sake, I'd love to know the extent of your involvement in contentious scientific topics. As a neophyte, I thought the same way you do. There is no a priori "us", nor is there an a priori "them." After months of editing, though, things do roll that way on certain topics. For what it's worth, this same mentality does not carry over between "sides" when they co-edit non-contentious articles. The mentality is topic-specific. Antelan 19:48, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is not a battleground is not my opinion, it's an official Misplaced Pages policy. I acknowledge the fact that it is a policy that you are having difficulty following. Dlabtot (talk) 20:26, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I do not believe that a single editor is doing any "service" to the project by purporting to represent and defend a POV in this manner. Misplaced Pages is a community of people, and when an editor becomes a "lone ranger" it sends the message that the community is not relevant, weak, and incapable to stand up to challenging disputes. Any such editor is in fact diminishing the community and the project by that type of lone ranger behavior and mind-set. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:51, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

^ And this comment applies equally to a 'posse' as it does to a 'lone ranger'. Dlabtot (talk) 20:53, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

He's not a lone ranger. There are a few others willing to take a stand, but they are too few, and too easily discouraged when faced with aggressive nonsense. Editors who tenaciously promote the idea that Immanuel Velikovsky was a great scientist, that we can use tape recorders to talk to dead people, or that the science behind global warming is a sinister UN plot (all of which I have encountered) are not building a better Misplaced Pages. To pretend otherwise is madness. Raymond Arritt (talk) 21:47, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Editors who are unwilling to abide by Misplaced Pages policy are not building a better Misplaced Pages. To pretend otherwise is madness. Dlabtot (talk) 22:18, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Ah, but see, one can engage the swarm and abide by policy. That's the best way. Raymond Arritt (talk) 22:33, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages policy also includes IAR, a lovely paradox that makes it impossible ever to be in full compliance with WP policy. This is intentional. Antelan 22:36, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

If we really took Misplaced Pages:Civility at face value it would be unenforceable and therefore meaningless, because banning a violator would be "personally targeted behavior that causes an atmosphere of greater conflict and stress" and thus uncivil. I like ScienceApologist's philosophy better than how he puts that philosophy into practice. Art LaPella (talk) 22:50, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Anyone who believes they are 'engaging the swarm' is clearly not assuming good faith. And Misplaced Pages policies are not meaningless or paradoxical. Dlabtot (talk) 22:58, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

<RI arbitrarily> What the hell is civility? Who decides what is civil and what is not? Why be civil, whatever the hell that means, to anyone proposing that Aliens have invaded the earth, that Bigfoot exists, that some supernatural being created the world 10,000 or so years ago, or that a superdilution of chemicals has any effect on the human physiology? Civility is a matter of interpretation, used by individuals to suppress ideas. This is well known. Nazis did it very well. I stand by ScienceApologist and others on this point. It's time to stand up to bullshit with verifiable, reliable, and widely accepted sources for anything written here. And those who chose not to do so, do not deserve anything but our absolute scorn. If they want to write bullshit, go to Conservapedia. If you want to write that Homeopathy violates every law of science (and I dare say every law of ethics), then that's a POV that is supported by a vast wealth of research. And if you have to be a little less civil because the other side relies upon Misplaced Pages legal system rather than reliable sources, then I say "fuck them" and get them out of the project. As Raymond said above, to do otherwise, is insanity. (OK, I paraphrased Raymond.) OrangeMarlin 21:28, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Free body diagrams completed

WP:WQA alert

Be advised, I've posted an alert on WP:WQA. Dlabtot (talk) 03:15, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Hey S.A! I just saw something posted over at WA. I checked the difs that Dlabtot posted. I think there might be some minor issue. If I can be bold to suggest: be a little more careful with some of your comments that might be misinterpreted as judgmental of the editor. I say this because, as my momma used to say: you can kill more flies with poisoned honey than with poisoned vinegar.

Having said that, I went back and looked through the entire Talk Page, and I can see why you may have written what you did. Keep fighting the good fight. I think it was Donald Sutherland playing "X" in JFK who said "Fundamentally, people are suckers for the truth. And the truth is on your side, Bubba." Peace! LonelyBeacon (talk) 03:48, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

There's a great XKCD comic on this topic: Flies. Antelan 04:49, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Heads up

You are being discussed here. Cardamon (talk) 07:08, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

This was renamed to Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Arbitration_enforcement#ScienceApologist.2FMartinphi. — Rlevse • Talk • 19:02, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Arbcom restriction violation

You and User:Martinphi have both been blocked for violation of arbcom restrictions. See for more details. — Rlevse • Talk • 22:22, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Unblock request

ජපස (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

Request reason:

This block by User:Rlevse was done despite my attempts to communicate with the user about his opinions vis-a-vis arbcomm restrictions. This admin has consistently ignored my requests for clarification, and, indeed, simply reiterated points without providing explanation. The admin then proceeded to block me without providing justification any more than a link to a rather extended discussion at arbcomm enforcement. I note that this discussion does not seem to indicate a consensus was reached one way or the other regarding arbcomm enforcement, and it was a discussion to which I was not privy. I see this as being nothing short of an administrator over-stepping his bounds and blocking without regard for procedure. I should be allowed to offer defense for supposed breaches of "incivility" and "personal attacks", something I was not permitted to do when the block was initiated. I fully reject the claim that rules of civility and personal attacks were breached by myself (see below in #Regarding civility and #Regarding NPA), so I ask for the following:

1. I be given an opportunity to defend myself against the accusations that I violated my arbcomm restrictions.
2. Rlevse respond to my queries I left regarding both warnings that were placed on my talkpage.
3. Rlevse get consensus before blocking like this in the future: especially when there is a controversial matter as this.

I'll also note that I'm currently trying to oversee the improvement of the force article which is under a deadline as well as organize the Misplaced Pages:Meetup/NYC meeting that is happening in two weeks from today. This block severely hampers my ability to contribute in these areas totally unrelated to the arbcomm. I also believe that User:Rlevse acted without proper consultation on the matter as I can see no other corroborating administrator.

ScienceApologist (talk) 04:10, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

You are more than welcome to make your case here, on your talk page, but as per the Arbcom restrictions, the block is perfectly justified; any instance of incivility is just cause for a block. As an aside, stating that the blocking admin should be recalled over this isn't the best way to garner support or sympathy for your situation; it comes across as vindictive. EVula // talk // ☯ // 04:25, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict with my own comment) Arbcom rulings are factual and functional, the end of a long trail of dispute resolution. The ruling is intended to end the patterns of behavior that led to such a trail of dispute, and users are expected to take them as such. If breached, enforcement is usually going to be the norm that might be expected.

The decision after that is simply, do DIFFs of your editing show breach of those rulings. They do, clearly. The blocker has shown this and I concur the diffs evidenced are diffs showing incivility and the like. You have gone through the entirety of dispute resolution and the conclusion was you have spoken uncivilly and assumed bad faith unhelpfully, and that this was then directed to end. The length of block is reasonable, within the ruling, and not excessive.

I do hope you will discuss (civilly) and take on board what arbcom and community norms both say about these things. Anything you can achieve in your good editing (which I have experienced and found very productive I should add) will not benefit from incivility, nor will uncivil speech gain anything that could not have been gained equally without it. In many ways your editing is fine and above average, and usually not a problem. Your tendency to an problematic style of conduct is what is at stake here. Decline, with regrets. — FT2  04:29, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I would appreciate you quote a diff that is supposedly incivil or assumes bad faith as I wholly reject the notion that this is the case. Further, is it right that an admin refuse to address my questions about warnings after being made? I find that attitude more than dismissive: it's unhelpful to the project. Finally, what's to be done about the unrelated activities that I coordinate? Are they to simply be canceled for want of an ability to communicate? ScienceApologist (talk) 04:33, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

(Responded below - edit conflict) FT2  04:51, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Regarding civility

This is the quotation:

How can you narrowly define the "subject" of the article to simply be the movie and nothing else? If we write an article about the theory of relativity, does that mean including a reference to a biography of Einstein is original research? How ridiculously fatuous can an argument get?

The point here is that one can make a fatuous argument following from this line of reasoning. I see nothing uncivil about me calling an argument I construct ridiculously fatuous.

This is the quotation:

Some critics who are in the know don't bother "calling them" on their inaccuracies because they are too stupid to warrant comment. See below.

The point here is that there are some critics who refuse to talk about things because they themselves consider the things to be too stupid to warrant comment. How is this incivility?

This is the quotation:

You obviously didn't do a very good job in my estimation, which is why I want you to explain what I consider to be a poorly considered position.

This is an honest assessment of Slrubenstein's contribution to that discussion. Note that I hold Slrubenstein in high regard, I just found that particular contribution to be poorly considered. How is this uncivil? Is disagreement and calling someone's argument "poor" now uncivil?

In short, I don't buy it, I don't think I violated my restrictions.

ScienceApologist (talk) 04:47, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Regarding NPA

This is the quotation:

"But I have no idea why you have a problem with me. Maybe you're upset that I criticized your attempt to get a "compromise" wording about the review by the pharmacist on QW. Maybe you're upset that I wasn't involved in the fake "consensus" discussion that you had with yourself, Levine, Anthon01, and a number of other alt-med POV-pushers. You seem to have a very short fuse and have hit upon me as someone you want to take down. I'm sorry, but I don't know why you decided things got so personal. Can you explain?"

This blows me away. I thought I was exhibiting traits of magnanimity in this post. Where is the indication that I am making a personal attack?

This is the quotation:

"It is becoming increasingly clear to me that a concerted group of paranormal POV-pushers including User:Dreadstar, User:TimidGuy, User:Nealparr, and User:Martinphi are holding this article hostage in order to prevent meaningful information about the subject matter to be presented to the reader. I have therefore added the NPOV tag to encourage broader realization of these problems. In particular, I think that there has been a lot of good information removed from the article since July 2007 that has been excised simply to allow for a sympathetic rather than a neutral point-of-view. This is wholly unacceptable according to WP:FRINGE and WP:UNDUE. The scientific community owns quantum mechanics and the interpretations of it. This needs to be made clear in this article. Currently it is not."

I stand-by this evaluation and others corroborated it. Assuming bad faith would be coming to another article where these editors did not have an editing history as I described and automatically assuming that they were out to have agenda-driven editing practices against NPOV. But is if evidence is presented that people are acting in a certain way, how can it possibly be "assuming" bad faith if they actually are demonstrating their behaviors? I also point out that these issues of WP:OWN require that we discuss who we believe the problematic group to be. Is it really a personal attack to point out the evidence-based affiliations of the group of editors who are acting in a way that is contrary to our stated goals as an encyclopedia?

This is the quotation:

Voting (not a measure of consensus)

Note that I object to the enfranchisement of more than a few of the people voting "no" as obvious disruptive editors and POV-pushers.

This was just an reiteration of my concerns about the way the listing was being conducted for the RfC. We all know that consensus means that voting is evil. My complaints about POV-pushers and disruptive editors attempting to stack the vote were corroborated by others. I presented my evidence above. How is this a "personal" attack?

In short I do not buy it, I don't think I violated my restrictions.

ScienceApologist (talk) 04:47, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Section break (continuation from unblock discussion)

(edit conflict) Calling another editor's argument ridiculously fatuous, or telling one editor that it would be nice if user:X would cut out that crap are two diffs cited by the admin that are uncivil. Those two diffs, regardless of others, evidence that the breach of ruling took place. If this is not clear then please understand it is our view of what the word entails, and make arrangements to not breach it more, even if it is not the word you would use. The rule here is you seek consensus; if you can't get it, seek advice or dispute resolution, but stay civil - which is about manner of speech, not agreeing or differing. FT2  04:49, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

First of all, I was calling an argument I made ridiculously fatuous. Secondly, I did think that it would be nice if the user would "cut out that crap" with regards to his continued personal attacks. So I still fail to see how either of these things can be considered breaches of civility/NPA. If someone had told me that "cut out that crap" was a problem, I'd have struck-it-through since I was writing that lightheartedly in reference to the continued ridiculous POV-pushing at that page perpetuated, in part, by said user. But now that I'm blocked, I'm not even permitted to do a simple thing as that. Your last two sentences about "the word" totally confuse me and also your vague reference to "our view" is extremely confusing. I'll note that I tried to get input from Rlevse about his view and he ignored me. Why can't I get someone to answer my questions when I ask them? ScienceApologist (talk) 04:54, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The reason you ended up art arbcom is summed up here, evidenced in your words and understanding: "I did think that it would be nice if the user would 'cut out that crap' ... so I still fail to see how can be considered breaches of civility ... If someone had told me that 'cut out that crap' was a problem, I'd have struck-it-through"

And therein lies the problem. I thought it was right so that made it okay to say it that way. If someone had said that to me I wouldn't have minded. But here whether it's right or not, it must be said with civility, and whether or not you would easily strike out a crude expression is not rationale to assume others should have to handle it too. FT2  05:04, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict, but the versions are identitical?!?!)I'm really confused now. I don't know how it wasn't said with civility. Can you explain. You even say you don't have a problem with it. Does that mean you think it is civil but others don't? Who sets this weird standard of civility? ScienceApologist (talk) 05:06, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I'll further point out that I did not get a chance to defend myself before the block was in-stated. ScienceApologist (talk) 05:00, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Correct. An obvious and clear breach of a norm does not always need discussion. As also stated, arbcom rulings are non-trivial things. They are the end of the line on behaviors that no lesser measure has managed to convey are not okay on the wiki. The arbcom ruling is "don't do that, this is what will happen if you do". If disagreed, there is unblock appeal. But in this case consensus seems to disagree with the view proposed. May I suggest instead of seeking to argue the block that's gone... look at the broader picture? This block isn't for fun. It's because nobody has any better idea how to explain "you don't speak these ways here" that you have at times made a habit. It's that simple. Just learn what's needed, and genuinely change, and it's in the past. FT2  05:19, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Can you please explain what aspect of each of the six offending diffs should be changed? ScienceApologist (talk) 18:04, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Though Rlevse provided six diffs in his blocking summary on the noticeboard, some of them were a bit of a stretch, as he took Martinphi's bait and failed to separate commentary on content from commentary on other contributors. These diffs were made even weaker by the fact that you weren't afforded an opportunity to explain them. However, your block isn't going to be lifted, since you clearly called other editors disruptive and accused them of being POV pushers.

Remember, when fringe theorists disrupt Misplaced Pages and push a ludicrous point of view, we can't actually say they're disrupting Misplaced Pages and pushing a ludicrous point of view. Please realize that it's more important to coddle trolls than to spend time doing something productive. -- RG 05:17, 31 December 2007 (UTC) This statement is profoundly unhelpful, and knowingly so. It's also "disruption intended to make a point". FT2  05:25, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

In contrast to FT2, I support this characterization. I think that this is exactly what's happening here. ScienceApologist (talk) 18:00, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Confusion with edit conflicts

I think that User:Evula and User:Jossi are trying to edit this page, but I cannot see their edits. Is there something wrong with how mediawiki handles a blocked editor writing on their own talkpage?

Dunno... But you have deleted EVula's decline notice four times already.... ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 05:12, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

No. Use "show changes" next time; if it shows that you're removing a large chunk of text, copy what you've said, go back to the talk page, and hit edit again, that way you're not removing the denial notice again. EVula // talk // ☯ // 05:13, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I am using show changes. These two edits came up with an edit conflict, but I don't see any other changes... what's going on?

Stop editing from diffs (clear out whatever you're looking at by just clicking your "discussion" tab) and there shouldn't be any more edit conflicts. EVula // talk // ☯ // 05:16, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

If you have an EC, do not hit save. Is that simple. Copy Your Text to the clipboard, go back to the talk page and click edit again. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 05:17, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Finally saw what you were trying to put in, Evula. It turns out that you were commenting on an earlier version of the unblock request. I'm restoring a more current version and since I notice that your decline is to the previous version, much of what you are trying to say is actually irrelevant. Please provide new rationale. Thanks. ScienceApologist (talk) 05:21, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Unblock templates

Due to the fact that you're continuing to use {{unblock}} even after multiple declines, I have protected your talk page for the duration of your block. - Penwhale | 05:27, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Per email, SA was confused by edit conflicts and was not intentionally abusing the unblock template. Page unprotected (good faith and all that). Thatcher 06:39, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

What is civility?

I was wondering what exactly is civility, and why we use it as a tool to control one another on here. According to the Oxford English Dictionary (I find online dictionaries to be particularly worthless), civility is Behaviour proper to the intercourse of civilized people; ordinary courtesy or politeness, as opposed to rudeness of behaviour; decent respect, consideration. You see, that's about the most subjective group of words I've ever read. Behaviour I understand. Intercourse, I also understand. Civilized people. Not so much. Ordinary courtesy or politeness? No clue what that is. Rudeness? Yeah sometimes. In other words, I cannot tell what is civility.

I used to deal with patients. I'd work on their coronary arteries, and find them smoking outside of the hospital. I would say, "if you want to fucking kill yourself, take a knife, a slice your worthless wrists." To me, I was being about as civil as I could command. What I wanted to do was shove the cigarette up their ass. Nine time out of ten, I'd get yelled at by the patient or family. One time out of ten, they'd be scared into ceasing their smoking (at least while in the hospital). Civilized people don't smoke after getting an angioplasty. Some might disagree, some might agree. But what was civil?

I live in California. We don't honk our horns at the car in front of us 2 nanoseconds after the light turns green. In New York, you get one nanosecond. What's civility there?

So SA is getting blocked for 72 hours. Some of you more aggressive and judgmental admins think that's appropriate (but you probably think he deserves more). Some admins are too frightened to stand up to this subjective interpretation of rule. And some admins may not care one way or another. But it is unfair that SA gets blocked based on an interpretation of events, some of which were specious, some of which were intemperate as a result of goading of another editor (whom I also think doesn't deserve blocking, but who does need to get a grip on reality).

I think this block is ridiculous. SA is a strong, intelligent editor of this project. And since I expect my block to be coming within the next 10-14 days, I'll state this very plainly. The POV-bullshit from certain quarters is getting out of hand. NPOV is being violated in so many areas, and we are fighting so hard to to keep it NPOV, that it is getting frustrating. Actions against SA is causing the burn-out of good editors. The POV warriors win through attrition. And because most admins now are "elected" based on the ability to fight vandals and not really do anything special rather than provide any sort of leadership (and leadership takes risks, takes integrity and takes teamwork), no one stands with the individuals that have to fight the POV warriors. So instead of someone jumping on the POV warriors, so you don't burn out editors like SA, you leave them alone. The admins that used to take a stand (there used to be a few dozen, but I noticed more and more are leaving, and a lot more are keeping low) are scared of the supporters of the POV-warriors.

So guess what? SA and others get frustrated by this and leave. We have other things to do in life. SA has a real life doing real things. I do the same. If I don't play around here, I'm still who I am. And Misplaced Pages gets to be known as the tool of the risk-averse. The place to find useless articles. Where Dinosaur spends several paragraphs discussing how Noah brought the Dinosaurs with him on the Ark. Or where other articles let you know that a salve of ear-of-bat and eye-of-newt will cure non-Hodgkins lymphoma, because someone heard about it, then read it in the Journal of Junk Science.

So, I know you all will pat yourself on the back, congratulating each other for keeping Misplaced Pages safe from the incivility of ScienceApologist. But you actually did nothing, but make the project worse. Someone will replace him, fight your administrative bureaucracy and milquetoast decisions, and also get burned out. I hope you all are proud of your actions. I'm embarrassed by each and every one of you. OrangeMarlin 07:26, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

If you don't like the civility policy, the best place to suggest changes to it would probably be at WP:CIVIL. Dlabtot (talk) 08:00, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I think the response of 9 out of 10 should be you guide as to civility. Anthon01 (talk) 12:05, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

No. But thanks for asking. Since someone will accuse me of incivility let me rephrase. Why? I have read it, and I'm kind of insulted that you didn't assume I had. But I'll get over it, which is a big part of the point of the policy. Moreover, if the policy is read carefully, it is full of subjective, judgement calls. My point exactly. One person's incivility to one admin will be another person's normal conversation to another admin. How can admins make the judgement call? Are they smarter than me? And others? OrangeMarlin 08:02, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

You've said that you can't tell what civility is. I believe you. But I didn't accuse you of incivility, nor did I say or imply that you haven't read WP:CIVIL. I'm sorry that I phrased my comment so clumsily that you were able to get that impression. What I meant was that if you believe the civility policy should be changed, you should actually participate at WP:CIVIL and attempt to achieve a consensus for the changes you envision. That's how Misplaced Pages works. Dlabtot (talk) 08:25, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I completely disagree with you. We try to define civility, but there is NO definition that fits all the time. Someone mentioned above that my example of 9 out of 10 patients complaining about my civility. I'd go back to them to apologize, but they're all dead. Sorry. My point exactly. As for biting my tongue, why? Why should anyone spend 2 seconds trying to consider what is or isn't civil (and biting your tongue, which is going to be raw after awhile). Again, what makes civility? You can tell me to "fuck off", and I'd laugh. And I agree with everyone's comment. There is no place for personal attacks. I consider civility and personal attacks to be separate. OrangeMarlin 20:32, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually there really does exist a consensus at Misplaced Pages on the question of "What is civility?. The fact that you do not agree with that consensus changes nothing. Consensus does not require unanimity. Dlabtot (talk) 20:58, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

OM: Your are arguing the exceptions to further your point and ignoring the rule. If you focus on the rule I'm sure you'll find civility most of the time, or 9 out of 10 times. Misplaced Pages isn't going to expire, because you haven't been allowed to uncivilly address editors who you deem deserve it. Anthon01 (talk) 00:40, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Whilst some points are valid, the thrust of this as a whole seems misguided. The fact there is some grey in the middle is not a terminal problem. The wider world of respected, authoritative science publications do have a view on civility. It is represented by the odds of Professor A getting his/her letter published by Nature or The Lancet if it starts "Dear Sirs. It would be nice if Professor B didnt talk crap". FT2  08:08, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Very well spoken, OrangeMarlin, but I do agree with FT2's points. Creating a hostile environment by using insults, ridicule and personal attacks is not the way to go - it does far more harm than good, no matter how great of a job the editor is doing otherwise. ScienceApologist definitely crossed the line with his remarks, and is under ArbCom sanction for doing so in the past. As Jimbo put it, "all editors should always endeavor to treat each other with kindness, or else find another hobby. When we put up with this kind of behavior, we enable a hostile environment that drives away good people. We should be gentle, but firm: this kind of behavior is not allowed at Misplaced Pages." I fully support this block, and I hope ScienceApologist can contribute to Misplaced Pages without being uncivil, he made some excellent and valuable contributions. Dreadstar † 08:21, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

FT2, to my great amusement, they do this all the time, using synonyms of 'crap'. Dreadstar, science-minded editors notifying each other about problematic articles like What the Bleep is not canvassing. Your note to perfectblue, on the other hand, is perplexing. Antelan 08:27, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I guess let me put it this way. If an editor got into my metaphorical face and said, "your edit is fucking bullshit, it's not supported by that reference," I would read over it and if he were right so be it. I'm done. And I never once said there should be a hostile environment. Smart men and women, generally know where the line lies. It is the anti-social or dysfunctional sociopath who does not. OrangeMarlin 08:42, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I think ultimately the answer to "what is civility?" is biting your tongue when you really don't want to. Everyone wants to tell someone to go fuck themselves at some point, but if we all did it would read like the comments at YouTube. Comments at YouTube are not meaningful because users there talk shit just for personal amusement. That was my issue with SA's incivility. It wasn't that I was particularly offended by it. It's that, geeze, what makes him so special that I have to keep my comments to myself but he doesn't? I'd like to go around telling people off too. But if we all did it, nothing would ever get done. It'd look like YouTube. I've been rude here before and told people they just don't know what they're talking about. I try not to make a habit of it. Usually what snaps me out of it is when I realize I'm the only one being rude. If everyone else is biting their tongue, where do I get off taking the liberty in saying what I really want to say? --Nealparr 10:33, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I completely disagree with you. We try to define civility, but there is NO definition that fits all the time. Someone mentioned above that my example of 9 out of 10 patients complaining about my civility. I'd go back to them to apologize, but they're all dead. Sorry. My point exactly. As for biting my tongue, why? Why should anyone spend 2 seconds trying to consider what is or isn't civil (and biting your tongue, which is going to be raw after awhile). Again, what makes civility? You can tell me to "fuck off", and I'd laugh. And I agree with everyone's comment. There is no place for personal attacks. I consider civility and personal attacks to be separate. OrangeMarlin 19:36, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

There's several reasons for biting your tongue even if you don't want to. Even if it's not a personal attack, and not damaging to the project as a whole, and even if you don't care about the person's feelings or whatnot, people just stop listening to someone who is negative, abrasive, or rude all the time. Eventually people simply stop listening to you, or don't take you seriously. So even if you really don't care about the receiving end, it's counterproductive to your own work at Misplaced Pages. --Nealparr 02:54, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

My personal goal on my Misplaced Pages editing civility is based not only on my own morality, but on the fact that Misplaced Pages is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit…much less read. Would I say such things to my mother or grandmother, my ten year old niece (or any child for that matter), a priest, in a TV interview, in any live public forum such as a grocery store, a bus or subway? That’s the threshold I try to put on my civility.

I certainly wouldn’t be as insulting as some editors here seem to believe they have the right to be, much less use the f-bomb. The ability to remain civil under even the harshest conditions is a sign of self-control and true confidence.

There are a lot of public forums out there that welcome and encourage flame wars, Misplaced Pages is not one of these. Dreadstar † 09:00, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Resp to Antelan: Perplexing? First, I don't see what that has to do with this particular discussion. Second, it's simple; after seeing the canvassing (or notifying, whatever you want to call it - looked like canvassing to me), to at least five noticeboards or projects - including the very noticeboard mentioned in perfectblue's question, it seemed appropriate that I ask her what I did. Considering the views on Bleep, I have to wonder why WikiProject:Paranormal and WikiProject:Film weren't notified. Seems the right thing to do.... FT2's example in Nature is quite different than your "synonyms" rebuttal...if SA had been as careful, he wouldn’t have been sanctioned in ArbCom in the first place...much less blocked. It's irrelevant to Misplaced Pages anyway, violations of WP:CIV are not welcomed, no matter what Nature does or doesn't do..but it was a good example of external civility concerns... Dreadstar † 08:48, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Read what SA wrote in his messages and see if you think it is "written to influence the outcome rather than to improve the quality of a discussion." or if it's acceptable canvassing. Dreadstar † 09:15, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't think there's anything wrong with asking people that you work with to weigh in on an article. I don't think there's anything wrong with asking someone if they'd talk to their wikiprojects about an article. I do see it as perplexing that you would hammer SA for asking science enthusiasts to weigh in, while at the same time you would ask perfectblue to do the same among paranormal enthusiasts. Antelan 09:23, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Hammering? One little question to perfectblue that doesn't even mention names and you say I'm hammering SA? Can you please provide some diffs for this hammering I'm supposed to have done, I really don't recall doing such a thing. I agree, there nothing wrong with friendly notices such as you have described - however, there's a big difference between the wording of my single question and SA's multiple posts - that's where the problem lies. The fact that he posted to his work mates isn't the issue, it's the wording...and the fact that I thought other groups should have equal notification, as appropriate. Dreadstar † 10:40, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

What gave you the idea that I considered your post to perfectblue related to your hammering of SA? My point is that if you actually believe things are so straightforward, then you should have just notified the groups yourself instead of asking a third party to do so. You are an admin, no? Antelan 11:18, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Diffs please. As for your interpretation of my question to perfectblue, it is a distortion of my statement. This conversation is way off topic, SA was not blocked or otherwise sanctioned for violating WP:CANVASS, nor is this a civility issue, nor was I 'hammering' him. If you believe so strongly about this issue, then I invite you to take this up the chain. Dreadstar † 19:09, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Break

This is a symptom of a larger problem, in my view. We have become the number one most important place for proponents of fringe theories and minority views, to get those views across. There exists a significant number of editors whose mission on Misplaced Pages is to skew content to better reflect their POV.

SA is struggling against a double source of frustration:

First, the fact that the new age crap is its own little world with virtually no external referents, no proper treatment by the scientific mainstream other than to laugh and point. Many of these articles and subjects are of little if any interest to those well-informed and supportive of the mainstream, for reasons which have been discussed at many articles over the months. Put simply, the scientific mainstream has close to zero interest in subjects like intrinsic redshift, non-traditional cosmologies, films which promote new age cults by pretending to extrapolate from actual science - as far as the scientific mainstream is concerned, these things are palpable nonsense and not worth the ink. This is desperately frustrating if you are interested in the subject form a mainstream perspective - I have had the same problem with SafeSpeed, a "speedophile" advocacy group where the only really solid source that gave them enough credibility to point out the abject nonsense they promote was Which?, a consumer magazine. And we've seen the same on the 9-11 conspiracies, where much of the rebuttal relies on Popular Mechanics, the only journal that actually dignified the conspiracy twaddle with a response.

Second, consequent on the first, most of these articles attract only those who are here to promote the non-mainstream POV. Look around the articles under the paranormal WikiProject and you will see the same faces time and again. True believers, with no shortage of sources promoting the fringe and non-mainstream stuff, because (like Christian "rock" bands and Christian self-improvement books) they have their own cottage industry in promoting and discussing each other. The paranormal is essentially a belief system, but presented by adherents as if it were reality. And there are very few well-informed pro-science editors who watchlist these articles, which means that those who do are in a more or less constant state of seige. They feel isolated and under attack, and not without reason.

Martinphi is one of a small number of especially zealous promoters of the non-mainstream. It appears that this small group has worked out that in order to remove a substantial barrier to their mission, all they need do is continue to provoke SA until he snaps, and then complain, bringing up the ArbCom restriction. Martinphi's complaints are querulous in the extreme, which is why the current block also applies to him. The major difference between the two, IMO, is that if Martinphi were banned, the project would not suffer, whereas if SA were banned, many articles would rapidly descend into chaos.

So, what we need to do, for the encyclopaedia, is to build up a support network for editors defending NPOV on articles under sustained attack. This is not to doubt the good faith of those promoting the on-mainstream - they sincerely believe that they are right, just as young earth creationists sincerely believe they are right - but their view is not the mainstream view, and NPOV requires that the mainstream view is used as a benchmark and referent when discussing these topics.

We cannot fix the problem of people coming along to promote their agenda. We can fix the problem of editors feeling isolated and besieged when defending such articles against this (innocent, for the most part) promotion. We need to be much more supportive of isolated defenders of the Wiki.

Now of course I know this will be disputed by some, some people think SA is evil. I don't think that. I don't think Martinphi is evil either. I do think that when comparing the two, the fact that SA is promoting the scientific mainstream is a serious and important difference between the two, and I believe it is this that accounts for the much firmer sanctions against Martinphi in the ArbCom case. The farce of Martinphi bringing an incivil complaint to the admin noticeboard about SA's incivility, much of which was not actually incivil, is evident to many, I think. We will never get SA and Martinphi to agree or to view each other as anything other than enemies, at least not for a long time, so we'll have to help them to avoid their personal issues spilling over into endless complaints of "look at the nasty man". I don't think I'm alone in having very close to zero time for people who provoke others, whether deliberately or because they can't help it, and then complain about the reaction.

Here's one way we can help: if anyone thinks SA has been more blunt than necessary, I suggest leaving a note here inviting him to refactor the comment in question to be less aggressive. This would apply especially where there is some ambiguity as to whether he is addressing content or contributor. Several of the diffs presented by Martinphi int he thread that prompted this are examples of something that could be interpreted two ways; Martinphi (naturally) interpreted them the worst way possible. So let's help SA to avoid such querulousness by noting and assisting him in refactoring comments that might be misconstrued, even if the misconstruction would require a basis of an assumption of ill-faith. And SA can help himself by doing that. I'm happy to do what I can to help - Martinphi should never post here and absolutely never request SA to refactor anything, that will simply inflame things, but if Martinphi takes issue with SA he can leave a note on my talk and I will talk to SA. I think if we were to adopt a policy of actively toning down comments some might see as problematic, rather than continually calling for people to be banned for it, we may actually help to fix the source problem without risking damaging the project by allowing the hounding-out of one of the major activists in maintaining neutrality on fringe topics.

So: response to supposed incivil, aggressive or other problematic comments by SA should be to point out, politely and calmly, that they may be misconstrued. No mentioning ArbCom, no threats, no condescension, no weasel words, just "SA, I believe this comment might be misconstrued, please consider refactoring". I think it's worth a try. After all, anything else would probably be assuming bad faith. Guy (Help!) 11:37, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

This is desperately frustrating if you are interested in the subject form a mainstream perspective. But is the purpose of Misplaced Pages to present its subjects from that perspective? or is it about presenting . the point of view that is neutral, that is neither sympathetic nor in opposition to its subject. Debates within topics are described, represented and characterized, but not engaged in. Background is provided on who believes what and why, and which view is more popular. Detailed articles might also contain the mutual evaluations of each viewpoint, but studiously refrain from asserting which is better.

If Misplaced Pages needs a "ScienceApologist" to save the project from the hordes of paranormal, conspiracy theorists, and chiropractors, Misplaced Pages is doomed. I argue that Misplaced Pages is viable without such editors. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:59, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Your perspective is admirable in its idealism but does not square with reality. My own perspective is summarized here. Having said that, I do believe we should remain civil, because it ultimately works to our advantage. (The first person plural refers to editors in the reality-based community.) Raymond Arritt (talk) 16:39, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

The sum of human knowledge includes all these viewpoints that we may see as repugnant, nuts, and all the rest. you know, but I agree with your assessment, Raymond. Only that we will prevail by sticking to our guns, and not degrade the nature of the debate. If this is an impossibility (which I sincerely doubt), then we are doomed as a project anyway. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:06, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Jossi, a subject which purports to be scientific, such as remote viewing, must be grounded by reference to its reception by the scientific establishment. Most of these subjects have some kind of claim; crystal healing, intrinsic redshift, "What The Bleep", alternative medicine articles, articles on ESP and telekinesis, all make claims rooted in essentially religious belief but which run counter to the known laws of physics. To describe them in their in-universe terminology without adding the mainstream perspective is a failure of WP:NPOV. In articles on religions, we make it plain that they are belief systems. Most of the contended articles are not really presented as such, they are presented as real concepts which lack proof - as indeed they are, and I believe such proof will never exist because most of it is no more grounded in reality than the average Elvis conspiracy theory. If something is described in terms which make it plain that there is absolutely no assertion that it is anything other than a belief held by a tiny minority then probably that would be sufficient, but most of these articles are not presented in such terms. As a Christian I find that some articles reflect the scientific rationalist perpsective rather too well, but in as much as any perspective can be described as neutral, then the scientific rationalist perspective is it, due to the rigours of publication and the scientific method. Guy (Help!) 17:13, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

This illustrates a fundamental misunderstanding of the WP:NPOV policy - which does not seek to present a 'perspective can be described as neutral' but rather seeks to present 'fairly and, as much as possible, without bias all significant views (that have been published by reliable sources)'. Dlabtot (talk) 17:21, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Guy, I do not think you would find any serious Wikipedian that would disagree with your statement To describe them in their in-universe terminology without adding the mainstream perspective is a failure of WP:NPOV. Of course we have to present the mainstream perspective (if there is one specific to the article in question). The issue is that "mainstream proponents" (for lack of a better world), do not have a upper hand in content disputes: both mainstream and alternative proponents have to work together in articles in order to achieve the ideals of NPOV. It can work, if we have a welcoming, kind, and strong platform for debate and one in which we are not afraid to take the necessary time to educate editors on the advantages of NPOV. Calling fellow editors, nutters or other such names will not accomplish that: it simply polarizes the situation and escalates to situations such as this one. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:32, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I think part of the problem is the constant assumption of POV pushing or assumption of what editor's beliefs are. That's often the first reaction in content disputes, "Oh, you're a POV pusher or a true believer and as such you don't have a valid opinion on the subject." The real problem of having to adequately address both beliefs and scientific reality in a neutral way gets lost in the process. It's not a small problem we're addressing here. Sense and soul have been at odds with each other since people first started thinking about our place in the universe. As the sum total of human knowledge, Misplaced Pages wants to cover both, when both are always at odds with each other. Honestly, I've only seen a handful of actual agenda-driven editors, editors that are here to promote a product or sell a belief. Most (in my opinion) are in good faith trying their best to accomplish what has historically been an extremely difficult or even impossible task, to cover both sense and soul in one place. Most edits on these articles I've seen aren't POV pushing, they're reactions to a perceived POV push from across the aisle. It's a push back. That's why I believe in WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL as good principles. If there were actually a way to use them in practice a lot of problems on these articles would disappear. --Nealparr 19:47, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Human beliefs are, in many cases, not human knowledge. Cardamon (talk) 20:41, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Another fundamental misunderstanding of our purpose here at Misplaced Pages, which is not, in the case of 'beliefs', to categorize some beliefs as 'knowledge' and other beliefs as 'not-knowledge', but rather, to present all significant views about those beliefs that have been published by reliable sources. Dlabtot (talk) 20:50, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Dlabtot, I think you may have misunderstood my previous comment, which did not even mention Misplaced Pages or its purpose. But, if you want to talk about the purpose of Misplaced Pages then, as regards the articles about science, I do agree that all significant verifiable points of view must be represented, but I do not agree that they should all have equal weight. I feel that this principle, from an earlier case in which ScienceApologist was involved, "1a) Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view, a fundamental policy, requires fair representation of significant alternatives to scientific orthodoxy. Significant alternatives, in this case, refers to legitimate scientific disagreement, as opposed to pseudoscience", should be more widely applied. To further address what Neal said, I also think the purpose of Misplaced Pages is to become a reliable reference encyclopedia, rather than the "sum total of human knowledge". In other words, if someone wishes to acquire knowledge of a subject, Misplaced Pages should not be the last stop on their journey, nor should it aspire to become the last stop on their journey. We can, however, aspire to become one of the earlier steps in their journey. Cardamon (talk) 21:39, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps I didn't explain what I meant very well. It's my opinion that beliefs are never knowledge (information), but rather conclusions based on knowledge. When I talk about beliefs, I'm talking about knowledge about beliefs. The "sum total of human knowledge" goal came off one of the policy or guideline pages around here. I forget which. --Nealparr 23:01, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure if it's in a policy or guideline, but it's a quote from the man himself, "Imagine a world in which every single person on the planet is given free access to the sum of all human knowledge. That's what we're doing." - Jimbo Wales. Dreadstar † 09:17, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

• This is a symptom of a larger problem, in my view. We have become the number one most important place for proponents of fringe theories and minority views, to get those views across. There exists a significant number of editors whose mission on Misplaced Pages is to skew content to better reflect their POV.
• So, what we need to do, for the encyclopaedia, is to build up a support network for editors defending NPOV on articles under sustained attack.
• So let's help SA to avoid such querulousness by noting and assisting him in refactoring comments that might be misconstrued, even if the misconstruction would require a basis of an assumption of ill-faith. And SA can help himself by doing that.

I didn't write the above statements - Guy did. I just copied them from above. I wish I had said them though. I see a lot of wisdom and fraternity in them. I will certainly be reflecting on them for some time. It has been frustrating to see these events unfold. I like hearing a good suggestion put forth to help the situation. LonelyBeacon (talk) 21:22, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Martinphi's poking of ScienceApologist and cherry picking of his edits to make him look bad is disruptive to the project, as is ScienceApologist's repeated incivility. The community does not need this behavior. It does not need their intolerance of each other's views either. What it needs is constructive behavior and edits from both. Repeated attempts at resolution with these two editors has failed. Both blocks are completely justified. Sumoeagle179 (talk) 22:02, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

• ScienceApologist is an adult. His goal is admirable, and should be the goal of everyone who wants to see Misplaced Pages held to high standards of quality. But he is responsible, by himself, for adhering to the community standards. If your crusade, in which he participates, is important then he should take the steps necessary to keep himself out of trouble - including taking responsibility for his own attitude and mood, and having the self-awareness to understand when he is close to losing his cool. No one needs to perform this function for him (although they can if they are so inclined). We edit in Misplaced Pages, but we live in the real world. You abide by community standards as much as you have to, or you suffer the consequences. Our standards are not that strict. You don't get blocked repeatedly, restricted by an ArbCom, etc. "because Martinphi made me do it". Period. If ScienceApologist can't handle it, someone else will eventually take over. There is no deadline. Avruchtalk 00:51, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
• Yes they are. But this is not about that, this is about how we can help SA not to get blocked again. We can't make him any less impatient with POV-pushing, that would require spuerhuman powers, but we can point out where he has used words that may be misconstrued or misrepresented (as Martinphi misconstrued or misrepresented some of his innocent remarks) and encourage speedy refactoring. Getting ticked is human nature, but this is a Wiki and we can go back and fix and refocus so that the productive remains and the unconstructive is removed. Remove the heat, with an "oops, sorry, got carried away" edit summary, and I think we'd all call that progress. It's less clear to me how one would fix Martinphi's querulousness before he finally gets banned, and I am ashamed to have to admit that I don't actually care. Guy (Help!) 00:56, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
• Something that's hard for a lot of people to accept is that civility is the most highly valued trait in Misplaced Pages, and that writing credible, well-referenced material is sort of nice but strictly secondary. There's also a tendency for some to sympathize with the pseudoscience and fringe types as the underdogs, allowing them to get away with things that mainstream-science editors more readily get called down on. The bottom line for the reality-based community is that to keep Misplaced Pages credible we have to accept the fact that unfailing civility, even toward those who deliberately provoke us, is the only way to go. We have to at least pretend to respect others even when we don't. Is that cynical and Machiavellian? Maybe. But there's no other way. Raymond Arritt (talk) 01:25, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Sad but true. Every time some fringe subject is subtly rewritten to sound as if it's "the subject of controversy within science" rather than the rejected and unsupported concept that it actually is, the encylopedia dies a little. WP has become the premiere, cost-free opportunity for the fringe to lift itself from the bottom of the search engine pile and gain instant visibility and credibility. I've observed fringe-pusher accounts increase over the last year, and some have learned to skillfully play the system against itself. I'm disappointed that a magnificently productive contributor like SA is unable to check his more immoderate outbursts. But I'm more disappointed that the new emphasis on WP:CIV has created somewhat of a straightjacket that discourages spades being called spades and enforces a climate where everybody is compelled to act like pollyanna -- the classical naïve optimist who always expects people to act decently, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Very discouraging. In the limited time I have for Misplaced Pages, I'll stick to improving low-traffic noncontroversial technical articles. - LuckyLouie (talk) 01:47, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Raymond and Lucky. You two have, more than all of the fringe-pushing twits that I've run across on this project, made points that just caused me to give up. For Raymond, I just realized how right you are, and it is not in my nature to lie in that way. I would rather tell someone that smoking will kill them than try to explain it. For LuckyLouie, you're right. Misplaced Pages is just a repository of bullshit. A bunch of us try to keep it out, but the great majority of editors here worry more about wiki-rules and wiki-regulations than in responsible writing or are in fact the fringe people that push their idea of NPOV on us. I thought I could change this place. But if civility matters more than writing credible, well-referenced material, well then let Misplaced Pages be the worse version of Conservapedia. At least those nutjobs know what they want. Screw it. OrangeMarlin 08:47, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

OM, I wouldn't go so far as to characterize Misplaced Pages as a repository of bullshit. One disturbing byproduct of the "AGF/CIV Over All" climate I have observed is that the battles continue and bitter opponents have evolved a form of newspeak which allows them to insult each other yet retain the appearance of CIV by using clever grammatical constructions laced with disclaimers. How strange. But I honestly believe that even with all its faults, WP is still a terrific project. As the song says, there's a time for everything, and my personal choice at this time is to avoid the drama. YMMV. - LuckyLouie (talk) 19:59, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Unblock Request

ජපස (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

Request reason:

This block by User:Rlevse was done despite my attempts to communicate with the user about his opinions vis-a-vis arbcomm restrictions. This admin has consistently ignored my requests for clarification, and, indeed, simply reiterated points without providing explanation. I submit that the block was administered through a misinterpretation of my actions and assumption of bad faith in terms of my edits. I note that current discussions do not seem to indicate that consensus was reached one way or the other regarding arbcomm enforcement, and it was a discussion to which I was not privy. I fully reject the claim that rules of civility and personal attacks were breached by myself (see above in #Regarding civility and #Regarding NPA)

I'll also note that I'm currently trying to oversee the improvement of the force article which is under a deadline as well as organize the Misplaced Pages:Meetup/NYC meeting that is happening in two weeks from today. This block severely hampers my ability to contribute in these areas totally unrelated to the arbcomm. A simple ban from certain article spaces would have been more appropriate if indeed arbcomm restriction violations occur (which, again, I wholly dispute). I also believe that User:Rlevse acted without proper consultation on the matter as I can see no other corroborating administrator.

ScienceApologist (talk) 04:10, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Decline reason:

Block is justified. — Lara❤Love 18:15, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

Are you going to respond to my queries? Can't I get an explanation? ScienceApologist (talk) 18:17, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

It appears to me that these questions have already been answered above. Lara❤Love 18:21, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

cold fusion

Please see talk:cold fusion, specifically the fork discussion, and let me know if you are aware of other sources to support what JohnAspinall says. I've asked for this apge to be unprotected so you can reply, I'm not sure why it's protected. Thanks, Guy (Help!) 00:11, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I asked LaraLove, she gave me permission to unprotect this but please tone down the rhetoric and don't use {{unblock}} again. The last thing we need is for your block to get extended or you to be banned. Rant to me by email instead, eh? You seen The Incredibles? You should know what happens when you segue :o) Guy (Help!) 00:23, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Why wouldn't she respond to me? ScienceApologist (talk) 16:02, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Here are some cold fusion resources regarding LENR:

Notice that the titles of each of these mainstream articles and presentations is "cold fusion". It's the advocates who have changed the name in order to distance themselves from the bad-taste that many scientists got in their mouths from "cold fusion" as a topic.

ScienceApologist (talk) 16:17, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Ghost Light merge is backwards

Will-o'-the-whisps are forms of ghost lights, which have been reported all across this world for a long time, not ghost lights being forms of Western cultural will-o'-the-whisps, which effectively smacks of eurocentricism. The order needs to be reversed. EDIT: Also, upon further review, your merging them to begin with is incorrect, as will-o'-the-whisps are, as stated in the article, seen over bogs, but ghost lights have been reported over all kinds of terrain, specifically grassy plains and hilly mountainous regions (the Brown Mountain Lights being only one such example). --Chr.K. (talk) 13:03, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Will 'o the wisps aren't just in bogs. That is a popular misnomer repeated by certain sources due to their country of origin not having a lot of deserts. ScienceApologist (talk) 16:14, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Things that haven't been addressed

1. Why was I blocked instead of banned from specific article/talk spaces? Should I really be prevented from editing force and discussing the IRL meetup I'm helping to plan?
2. Is the unblock template really allowed to be used for 2 requests per year per block as it says it is?
3. Is there a way to discuss problems with individual users that isn't a personal attack? Please see #Regarding NPA in particular and tell me what I should have done differently.
4. What is civility? Is it always in the eye of the beholder? Please see #Regarding civility and tell me what I should have done differently.
5. Why didn't User:Rlevse respond to my queries?
6. What behavior on this page justified page protection?

ScienceApologist (talk) 16:14, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Some replies:

1. You where blocked as per the ArbCom restriction imposed on you;
2. Re-adding the unblock template after several admins rejected the request to unblock is grounds for protecting the page. That was explained to you several times. See the template pages which say: You may request another review, frequently up to a maximum of two per year per block, by adding another unblock request. As well as: Abuse of this template may result in your talk page being protected.
3. Of course. Just use tact and given the comments made above and elsewhere, be very cautious so that you are not perceived as attacking, diminishing, or flaming fellow editors;
4. Read the many comments made on the subject above;
5. You will need to ask him that question
6. Your insistence in challenging the block, by mis-use of the unblock template, and by ignoring the numerous warnings made.

≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:08, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Some re-replies:

1. Wouldn't it make more sense to allow me to work in the areas that are unrelated to the conflict?
2. I didn't readd the unblock template except when there were edit-conflicts and problems with the media-wiki software. I did not believe many of my concerns were addressed (and they continue to be ignored) and so I re-edited the unblock request and added it a second time per the rule that one may add an unblock template twice per year per block.
3. Can you respond regarding the specific instances?
4. They aren't conclusive. I believe that there isn't consensus on this issue. Again, can you respond regarding the specific instances?
5. He doesn't respond to me.
6. The unblock template was not misused. There have been no warnings issued on this page that I see.

ScienceApologist (talk) 18:28, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I personally alerted you several times. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:31, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Jossi, as can be seen above, there was a problem with the Mediawiki software that prevented me from seeing your contributions due to the particular way the edit-conflicts are handled. The "replacement" of the unblock template was not intentional. What ever happened to assuming good faith? ScienceApologist (talk) 18:33, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

1. The ArbCom ruling specifically said that you would be blocked for violating your restriction. Not banned from particular articles, but blocked.

2. Not really sure what the issue is here.

3. Is there a way to discuss problems with individual users that isn't a personal attack? It depend on what you mean by 'problems with individual users'. Are you asking if there is a way for you to discuss what you perceive to be the shortcomings of other editors without it being a personal attack? The answer to that is probably not. But of course, on article talk pages, your perceptions of the shortcomings of other editors are completely off-topic, anyway.

4. Even if you don't agree with the Misplaced Pages consensus on civility, you still have to abide by the policy.

5. Rlevse is under no obligation to respond to you, of course. Especially if all you are doing is asking questions that have been already answered. Like the questions you ask in this section.

6. The page protection question being a good example. It's already been answered repeatedly. Dlabtot (talk) 19:23, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Completely non-responsive. I have six instances of violation which I responded to. No one has stated where my error was. You have ignored those parts of my queries.

One issue you did respond to was whether it is possible to discuss the shortcomings of other editors without it being a personal attack. This is very important because there are a lot of agenda-driven editors out there who consistently deny their positions. This is point number 2 under #Regarding NPA. Is it appropriate to simply bring these things up to the completely ineffective User:RfCs and let them fester until arbitration? Why can't we simply apply judicious use of WP:SPADE when dealing with editors who are so obviously driven to push their own POVs. ScienceApologist (talk) 19:38, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Despite your protestations to the contrary, your incivility has in fact been pointed out to you. Yes, those type of personal attacks are indeed personal attacks, and the proper way to resolve disputes is indeed the dispute resolution process. Dlabtot (talk) 19:53, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, this is getting nowhere fast. I can see all you want to do is repeat without explanation. ScienceApologist (talk) 20:16, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

To chime in, agenda driven editors are certainly in my opinion the biggest source of outright misinformation on wikipedia, and there is a weakness in the system when it comes to dealing with them. This is I feel a very important matter, since it is often very difficult for admins without a scientific backgrounds to realise the sometimes blatent nonsense with can be purveyed. There is currently no accepted way to say that a specific editor is simply completely deluded and so they are usually free to continue inserting misinformation, which makes editing sometimes feel like holding back the tide. This requires a community level review I feel.

That all said, it also appears to me that the unpleasant business of this block has been slightly mishandled. It's not a serious issue, but it is not proper to assume a petulant misuse of the unblock template by an experienced and well respected editor. Jefffire (talk) 19:55, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

What can we do about this problem? ScienceApologist (talk) 20:16, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

At the moment, just talk to try to form a consensus that it is a problem. Beyond that, a number of potential approaches come to mind. I think we need a specialised admin or user group specifically to look at purported scientific disputes, since most of the problems I have encountered have been about issues to which the scientific position was quite clear. That's perhaps slightly idealistic, and doesn't really address the issue of determined true believers. Jefffire (talk) 20:33, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

(ec**2) To answer one of your questions -- no, we can't apply WP:SPADE without leaving ourselves open to WP:NPA. You, in particular, can't because your behavior is under a microscope. Is that fair? I'd say no. But it's how things are and we need to deal with it. We have no choice to be unfailingly civil, period, full stop. You'll be much more effective if the other guy is uncivil while your own conduct is above reproach. You may find it useful to reflect on this approach. Raymond Arritt (talk) 19:57, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

So how do we handle it when editors who are clearly violating neutrality campaign to the point of confusion. Do we just let them have their way? One way for one's conduct to be "beyond reproach" is to simply avoid all conflict. There are obviously cases where a person experiencing a judo throw will consider that to be uncivil. ScienceApologist (talk) 20:16, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

The way to handle it is by using the dispute resolution process. By the way, WP:CIVIL is a policy. WP:NPA is a policy. WP:SPADE is neither a policy, nor even a guideline. It's simply very poor advice. Following that advice in the future would be very likely to result in additional sanctions like the one you are experiencing now. I'd recommend following the advice in WP:NOSPADE instead. Dlabtot (talk) 20:29, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Nah, the dispute resolution process doesn't work because this is the end result. There seem to be too many incompetent people in charge at Misplaced Pages making decisions that are based on superficial conduct idealizations rather than what is best for the encyclopedia. You haven't really been around long enough to see what I mean. It's okay. You'll learn in due time. ScienceApologist (talk) 20:31, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, the dispute resolution process has worked perfectly in this instance. You violated your ArbCom restrictions against incivility and disruptive editing and were subsequently blocked. Dlabtot (talk) 20:48, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

You know, for someone I just met a week ago, you seem to have a lot of opinions about me and the justice of this particular situation. I also notice that you seem to have taken an extreme interest in this case judging from your recent contributions. I notice you edited depleted uranium a lot. You don't happen to be named James by any chance? ScienceApologist (talk) 20:51, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Rubbing salt into wounds is unseemly. Raymond Arritt (talk) 20:50, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

(ec**2, again...) We don't let them have their way, but respond by adding impeccable references and the like. All while remaining civil beyond Miss Manners' wildest dreams. I don't want to go into too much detail here but we have to use the system (including the so-called dispute resolution process) to our advantage, instead of letting them use it to their advantage. Too many of the reality-based editors have been giving the woo-woo artists free ammunition by engaging in uncivil conduct. We have to stop that. Raymond Arritt (talk) 20:32, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I've noticed that user:MastCell is quite deft at puncturing false arguments without coming close to personal attacks or incivility. Perhaps it would be useful to study his/her techniques. Cardamon (talk) 20:38, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

The core of the problem at hand...

... is ScienceApologist recent comment above:

Nah, the dispute resolution process doesn't work because this is the end result. There seem to be too many incompetent people in charge at Misplaced Pages making decisions that are based on superficial conduct idealizations rather than what is best for the encyclopedia. You haven't really been around long enough to see what I mean. It's okay. You'll learn in due time. ScienceApologist (talk) 20:31, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

If SA believes that, then his behavior is not surprising. Unless SA accepts Misplaced Pages norms, such as WP:DR, WP:CONSENSUS, and WP:CIVIL, and the principles it represents... what can we do but end up were we are now? (i.e. the ArbCom restriction, and his latest block) ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:51, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Jossi, you have always had a problem with me since we first interacted. I think the core problem at hand is that the community thought it wise to give you a mop and a bucket. Yeah, consensus can be a major problem, especially when consensus ends up being abused in violation of WP:NPOV and WP:V, for example. I really do find you to be arrogant and condescending and your administrative actions in many cases have been less than helpful. ScienceApologist (talk) 20:54, 2 January 2008 (UTC)