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Revision as of 16:16, 8 July 2005

I believe that specifically the paragraph that starts with "If, though, it was ..." is far too insinuating. It should not be the purpose of an encyclopedia to imply that the US government is lying, as much as this paragraph does. Especially the sentence that US military might hold 'alien' weapons is beside the purpose of an encyclopedia article. Still... I didn't change the text because I'd like to hear other opinions about this first... Hwebers 6 Jan 2004

This article makes a couple of logical leaps that cannot be supported. You say that if it were ever established that the thing that crashed at Roswell was indeed an alien craft, this was would prove that (a) the film of the purported autopsy of an alien would be verified as true, and (b) it would be proven that the USA has adopted alien technology.

Neither of these outcomes follows at all.

If the film was bogus rather than a true record of an actual alien autopsy, then any proof that whatever crashed was alien would not suddenly convert the film from being bogus to being true. The same argument for the alien technology - because just because the US govt could be proven to have had contact with alien life forms does not of itself prove that they have been able to adopt any of their technology. Cheers JackofOz 10:20, 15 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I call Six Days... a "semi"documentary because some of the framing elements are staged. The Maysles Brothers, it ain't. Will elaborate in a separate entry on the film at some point. LazloNibble 29 Apr 2004

POV

This article is heavily slanted toward the idea that there was an alien crash and cover up at Roswell in 1947. It is structured in such a way that dissenting viewpoints are immediately rebutted and often unfairly. For instance it was noted that the the governement has suggested that people who claim to have seen bodies may be remembering the bodies of dummies used in the 50's and 60's and mistakely associating them with the Roswell crash. The article then claim that this is at odds with the original report which does not mention bodies. But how was a report written in 1947 supposed to mention events that would not occur until the 1950s! The article is full of these problems to the point that fixing it will be a very involved process. The article also ingnores any significant problems with the conspiracy theory.--198.93.113.49 13:29, 19 May 2005 (UTC)

The "original report" referred to was the Air Force's 1994 report, not 1947. I thought this was clear but apparently not. (BTW, there was no 1947 public investigation and "report", just brief press releases, which are something else entirely.) Regardless, a minor edit was added to remove any ambiguity. I've also added some language to make it clearer that other counterarguments presented elsewhere represent the POV of some.

The 1994 report did indeed skirt the issue of bodies, instead saying it wasn't necessary to consider because the crash was caused by a Mogul balloon, which didn't have an alien crew therein. That was how the Air Force in 1994 (not 1947) worded it and dealt with it.

I felt the article as originally written was heavily slanted towards the skeptical viewpoint, and for balance, opposing arguments were presented while leaving the skeptical viewpoint in place. E.g., there really is zero historical evidence to support Roswell as a "broken arrow" atomic accident--there were no bombs in the atomic arsenal then and no records of such a crash. Why not point that out? Encyclopedia articles are supposed to be based on facts, not mere speculation. (Incidentally, the first "broken arrow" air crash in the U.S. was near Albuquerque in 1950, not Roswell in 1947.)

Regarding a Mogul crash, why not point out that there are also serious objections with that theory. It is just another POV of some and certainly not a given. There is another side to this.

Unlike many encyclopedia articles, Roswell is not a neutral subject and there are strong viewpoints on both sides, which need to be presented in as factual a way as possible while trying to maintain a sense of overall neutrality. Some point/counterpoint is essential when dealing with such topics. I do have a POV but did strive for balance and to let both sides have their say.

If you think a brief counter to the "conspiracy theory" is warranted, go ahead and add it. BTW, labeling something a "conspiracy theory" is already loaded and expressing a strong POV, as are some who label legitimate researchers as "believers" or "UFO buffs" or "conspiratorialists." These are propaganda terms and have no place in an encyclopedia article. Simply say something like, "An argument against this theory is..." or "Advocates of this position believe ...", or similar neutral wording to that effect.

Incidentally, the presented theories from Pflock's book, such as the burned bodies from an aircraft accident years later or "the blunder of a particular officer suffering from an attack of hubris" are best described as highly biased, wild-assed speculation rather than fact-driven. They probably don't even belong in an encyclopedia article. I considered editing them out entirely, but left them in without rebuttal so that a particular skeptical POV could be presented. Dr Fil

Clinton comments completely out of context

The section about Bill Clinton's Roswell statement is inaccurate and out of context, it implies he was in the Irish Republic when a member of the press put a question about Roswell to him. None of that happened, he was not "asked", he wasn't in the Republic.

What actually happened was this (I saw the speech on television, it was a big event at the time): He was on a trip to Northern Ireland (which whether you agree with it or not is part of Britain, and officially recognised as such by the Irish Republic's new constitution). He was due to switch on the Belfast Christmas tree lights. Before doing so he gave a speech during which he read out several letters sent to him by children from Northern Ireland before he came there.

Most of them were (obviously) to do with the peace process which he'd invested a lot of time in, but as a moment of light relief he said that a child (can't remember the name, let's call him Timmy) had written to ask if alien bodies were recovered by the US Air Force in Roswell in 1947 and being stored at a secret base. Clinton had a broad smile on his face when answering the question, "No, Timmy, as far as I know they did not. And if they DO have them stored somewhere, I want to know about it!" There wasn't an ounce of seriousness in the statement, and it's impossible to tell from it if Clinton has any genuine interest in Roswell at all.

OK, so in the interest of absolute factual accuracy, let's change Ireland to Northern Ireland and reword slightly to indicate that he was responding to a letter from a child.

The fact that the question was in a prescreened letter rather than a spontaneously asked question actually strengthens the argument about Clinton's interest. Prearranged presidential statements are usually carefully vetted to prevent Presidents from saying the wrong thing. Out of all the things Clinton could have responded to, he and his staff deliberately had him answer a potentially loaded question about Roswell, something they could have easily avoided. The question is why?

Also read the part about Clinton instructing Webster Hubbell to find out about UFOs. That's in Hubbell's book written after he left the White House. That's a fact, not an interpretation. Clinton also had a book on Roswell (the first one by Randle and Schmitt) on his Presidential bookshelf when his books were inventoried while he was under investigation by Kenneth Starr. That's another fact. The book was given to him by Paul Davids, who produced the HBO movie "Roswell." According to Davids, his father, Dr. Jules Davids, was one of Clinton's professors at Georgetown. That was the connection between Davids and Clinton.

Another indication of Clinton's deep interest in UFOs was attested to by senior White House Correspondent Sarah McClendon, who noted other senior officials in the White House were also briefed on the matter. See, e.g., http://www.thecosmicfrontier.com/Cosmic/Sara%20Article117.htm .

The recent quotes on Roswell and UFOs from N.M. Governor Bill Richardson, Clinton's DOE head, and John Podesta, Clinton's chief of staff, are also part of the public record. Dr Fil 22 May 2005

I'm not saying ANYTHING about Clinton's opinions on Roswell, I have no idea what they are. The other references you mention sound like more important sources about this topic.

All I'm saying is I saw the speech and the particular reference included in the article doesn't really tell you anything about Clinton's views either. If you want to present convincing evidence of something you have to be careful not to read too much into less convincing things.

The context of the speech was in a region where there had been mass murder for 40 years, with literally thousands of people killed, beaten and jailed in a self-sustaining cycle of violence and persecution from both sides that seemed to have no end in sight. The work Clinton was doing in Belfast was literally a matter of life and death for his audience, the Good Friday Agreement which he helped to broker was hanging in the balance.

The speech was meant about very serious issues but it also needed to be upbeat and hopeful, especially as it was at Christmas, so Clinton needed a few lighter items completely unconnected to any of the feuds in Ulster.

You asked why he mentioned Roswell as if the reference had no reasonable explanation, but it definitely does have an eminently reasonable explanation: Clinton wanted to lighten a serious speech in a very serious life-threatening situation with something totally utterly unlikely to offend either Catholics or Protestants, so what could be less likely to offend than a joke about aliens?

Also, at the time he made the speech Roswell was very much a "pop culture" reference with the recent huge successes of things like X-Files, Independence Day and Men In Black, and nearly all politicians love to make references to anything that's fashionable (that's why George W Bush tried a Segway in front of TV cameras, for example).

As well as Roswell, in the same speech he also talked about the Mighty Morphin Power Rangers, saying he didn't have their amazing athletic ability. It lightened the speech and was another pop culture reference (the MMPR were extremely popular at the time), just like the Roswell mention.

First of all, I got the date of Clinton's Belfast comments on Roswell wrong. It was November 30, 1995, not 1999 (this has been corrected). I am looking at Clinton's comments in a much broader context than you are. It is part of the public record that various people in the Clinton White House were very interested in the subject, including the Clintons. For more on this, see:

Another important part of the context is to realize that Clinton made his Belfast comments just a few days before the Air Force issued their final version of their initial Roswell report. (They issued a short "executive summary" a year before in Sept. 1994, what Newsweek magazine called a "preemptive strike," but their much longer "phone book" version came out right after Clinton's remarks.)

Given the context, I seriously doubt Clinton's remarks were made for comic relief, though they were made in a light-hearted manner. This tone has a rather more direct interpretation than Clinton doing a stand-up comedy act to relieve tension in Northern Ireland. One has to realize that taboo subjects like UFOs and Roswell are one of the third rails of politics. Almost no politician dares to go near it for fear of ridicule. New Mexico Congressman Steven Schiff, who got the initial Roswell GAO probe going, was the rare exception. Clinton couldn't publicly discuss the subject with total seriousness. Hence the lighthearted approach, giving him plausible deniability should he be asked afterwards whether he did take it seriously. In the meantime, Clinton and his speechwriters were delivering a prepared, carefully worded message to the Air Force. "You didn't touch the subject of bodies in your first report, I'm the President, and I want to know."

(You might be interested to know that when the Air Force issed their press release about the Roswell report a few days after Clinton's comments, they quoted the first half of Clinton's remarks, that he was unaware of a saucer crash at Roswell, as supporting their conclusions, while leaving out the second half of his remarks, that the Air Force hadn't told him anything and also hadn't addressed the issue of bodies. Talk about quoting out of context!)

A year and half later out came the "crash dummy" report. This was released exactly on the 50th anniversary of Kenneth Arnold's sighting of June 24, 1947, and also just in time for Roswell's 50th anniversary. This again was no accident, but another "pre-emptive strike" by the AF public relations spin-meisters.

Incidentally, Clinton's remarks did not predate X-files, but they did predate Independence Day (1996) and Men In Black (1997), and also "The Rock" (1996), which also mentioned Roswell. Even if these popular movies somehow made Roswell "fashionable," they had nothing to do with what Clinton said before they came out. Dr Fil 00:03, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)

source?

"It should also be known that a theory has been postulated that the Roswell incident was, in fact, a mid-air collision between two alien spacecraft. The first completely fragmented and its remains were found over Mack Brazel's ranch. The second, according to witnesses and people who uphold this theory, landed a short distance away. It was reported that four extraterrestrial entities were found--one alive, one dying, and two dead. This was witnessed by many people, including a university professor and his class, who were going on a field trip. Then the army came, warned the others away, and took care of the crash. The surviving alien was christened Extraterrestrial Biological Entity 1 (EBE-1), and survived at a safe house in New Mexico until 1952, where it died of unknown causes."

Where's the source for this?

--- Not sure, but I've seen SciFi movies claiming things like that. Like most if not all "proof" of aliens at Rosswell it seems to be a myth perpetuated by UFO adherents and SciFi authors in order to make themselves look important and/or make money out of disinformation. After all, UFOs sell a lot more books and advertising revenue than do weather balloons.

At current the only evidence for any alien involvement are the original two newspaper articles which are nothing more than speculation from junior USAAF officers who had no experience or knowledge of Mogul balloons. The "disc shaped" object might well have existed but in fact be a roughly circular piece of mylar from the balloon (for example) misidentified as something else (or maybe the latter part was omitted by the press to stir up a story that wasn't there).

This artile is seriously slanted towards the "believer" point of view. For example, testimony of purported witnesses to the event is offered as being a true and accurate repetition of their statements, but the article doesn't say who reported their testimony, an important element in judging whether to credit that the "witness" ever said it.