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Needs extensive corrections

This article is embedded with lots of deceptive information. Following are some examples.

1) Uses a title that was not formally given to the South Indian Classical Music

2) Never mentions about the original name ‘Karnataka Sangeeta’

3) Implies incorrectly that the Karnataka Music, the South Indian classical Music was initiated in a language other than what it was originally started.

4) Lists the founder Sri Purandara Daasa only under composer section though he is the undisputed founder, promoter and most prolific among all composers of South Indian Classical music, Karnataka Music.

5) Implies that Sri Puradara Daasa just initiated lessons for beginners though he laid the complete foundation for the South Indian classical music, Karnataka Music.

6) The article over emphasizes on speculative information about happenings before 15th century.

7) Musicians named are not representative of the full spectrum of South Indian Classical Music, Karnataka Music.

8) Though the photo of founder Sri Purandara Daasa is appropriate, placing photo of other composers without putting that of the great Trinity is not appropriate.

9) The article is over descriptive as per Misplaced Pages suggested guidelines

10) The article need to be rewritten immediately based on the real facts and the use of the original formal title ‘Karnataka Music’. Rewriting will be initiated by editors who are interested to improve the article to remove deficiencies. Cooperation from other editors is requested. If not agreed for logical/validated corrections, a separate concise article for ‘Karnataka Classical Music’ is needed and will be pursued in the interest of users of popular Misplaced Pages.

Naadapriya (talk) 18:18, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

1) Please do not assume WP:OWN - the title was felt as the most appropriate by Misplaced Pages editors, as well as WikiProject India. This issue was also dealt with during the deletion of the WP:POVFORK: Karnataka AKA Carnatic Music.

2) This name is mentioned at the beginning of the article

3) NPOV must be adhered to at all times - no linguistic tint is being, or may be given. This issue has been dealt with in the past by consensus.

4) Adequate reference to Purandaradasar has been given where appropriate. He has also been mentioned in other sections outside of the composers section. Clearly, the user making these claims has not read the article thoroughly.

5) It is vague and inaccurate to simply state that he 'laid the complete foundation of Carnatic Music' as he is not solely responsible for doing so. He did, in his many pioneering contributions , gave a strong foundation for Carnatic music, which led to him being referred to as the father of Carnatic music - this is both mentioned and implied in the article itself.

6) The information is not speculative, it is sourced from reliable and verifiable sources.

7) The article only names the most prominent and popular artists, considered by current standards throughout India, and outside of India. Other artists that are less prominent or popular are listed elsewhere.

8) Other composer's images are not dependent on whether the Trinity's image is available or not - implying otherwise will be considered attempting to push POV. The Trinity image was removed for copyright reasons.

9) There are currently no details in the article that may be removed as they are all important.

10) There is no problem with the prose of this article. The suggested title has already been rejected on two occasions - once last month. The suggested corrections are not valid and lack logic. The user has already been alerted of the consequences of creating/recreating this article in any form. The user is not welcome to make threats on any article talk page as per Misplaced Pages policy. Ncmvocalist (talk) 06:57, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

A detailed rebuttals to above mostly invalid and stallingcomments are in preparation.Naadapriya (talk) 08:45, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

1) Please do not stall by bringing unrelated topic. ‘Admns’ have either acknowledged or shown their consent by not commenting that there was no POV ny naadapriya. It is very strange see a make-believe comment on Karnataka AKA Carnatic Music article that could not be started due to premature blocking by 'admn' based on wrong advice. Again it is requested not to assume WP:OWNership on Misplaced Pages article ‘Carnatic music’ which is not a correct main title for the South Indian Classical Music. The original name ‘Karnataka Music’ of South Indian Classical music was never formally renamed as ‘Carnatic Music. Therefore the title should be ‘Karnataka Music’ not ‘Carnatic Music’

2) NO it is not TRUE. The original name ‘Karnataka Music’ is needed as is in the title.

Then article can start with ‘Karnataka Sangeetam if needed a.k.a the anglicized name Carnatic music’. Again it is requested to stop stalling the discussions. The title should be the original name Karnataka Music. Please read good articles such as one on Chennai. One can not use the ‘apabramsham’ (distorted by those who could not pronounce) as the original name in a title. An article on South Indian Classical music should logically bear the original name ‘Karnataka Music’ and the rest may be mentioned in the text with explanations. See the Mysore University news posted on leading news paper Prajavani, Feb 10th 2008 issue which states the foremost living legend of Karnataka Music from Andhra, BMK receiving a honorary degree for “Karnataka Sangeeta’ not for ‘Carnatic music’. Visit 1974 Ramon Magsaysay Award official website to read that the best female musician MS that world has ever seen to date receiving the highest international award for ‘Classical and Semi-classical Karnataka tradition of South India’. See the recent live interview on the web-journal thatskannada.com where the living senior most legend RKS refers to South India Classical music as “Karnataka Sangeeta”. That shows all great musicians refer to the South Indian classical Music as Karnataka Music or Sangeeta or Sangeetam not by any other name that never existed. One can go on and on to prove already well known fact.

3) Naadapriya has maintained NPOV at all time using fact based information. Current one is lot more than a consensus issue. It is about objective evidence. There is no evidence that today’s Karnataka Music was initiated in any language other than one adopted by the founder Sri Purandara Daasaru. Many editors who appear to be from different states of South India have made the same observations in the past. Stating a fact is neither ‘linguistic tint’ nor POV. It is just like stating the fact that Vedas were originally written in Sanskrit. It is requested not to bring linguistics issues here. Naadapriya who regularly accompanies instrument for Kannada, Telegu, Tamil and Malayalam music has great respect to all languages. Current issue is not about language but it is about real fact accepted by all South Indians.

4) Sri Purarandara Daasaru name is needed come with no ambiguity that he founded the Karanataka Music. It is not like that in the article. Current text incorrectly implies that he started his music career by improving pre-existing music, devised a teaching method and composed. No, he founded completely a new South Indian classical music ‘Karnataka Sangeeta’ which way later also got name Karnataka Sangeetam. The article dilutes the hard fact that he founded the complete music format which is obvious in the following text from the article.

‘Carnatic music saw renewed growth during the Vijayanagar Empire by the Kannada Haridasa movement of Vyasaraja, Purandara Dasa, Kanakadasa and others. Purandara Dasa who is known as the Sangeeta Pitamaha (the grandfather of Carnatic music) laid out the fundamental tenets and framework for teaching Carnatic music’.’

How can it be ‘renewed’ when the sentence itself states Sri Purandara Daasa is

The Pitamaha (either father or Grand father) of the Karnataka Music.

5)Well apples were falling and equations existed before Newton. But Newton is solely responsible for the Gravitational Theory and all give credit to him. Similarly it is crystal clear that Sri Purandara Daasaru is solely responsible founding today’s Karnataka Music. He set the full format that is practiced by all today. It is suggested that commenting editor should read the documented history of Karnataka music carefully.

6) It is speculative. Hard objective evidences about Karnataka Music exist only since early 15th Century after Sri Purandara Daasaru founded it. It is well known through his lessons (swara concept, talas, alankaras, swara based voice exercises, Krithi format, foundation for Alaapane through UgaaBogha, Sunadi etc etc) and thousands of Krithis. This fact is acknowledged by all great musicians including Sri Thyagaraja who grew up learning to Purandara Dasa’s compostions from his mother Seethamma. As a token of his gratitude Sri Thyagaraja has paid tribute to Purandara Dasa in his musical opera - - Prahlada-Charithamu which another important objective evidence. Thus, Purandara Dasa undisputedly “Karnataka-Sangeetha-Pithamaha”. Todays form South Indian Classical music, Karnataka Sangeeta started only after Sri Purandara Daasaru.

7) There are no stipulated standards about musicians not even by Govts. The current list is of so called’ prominent and popular artists’ is POV based. All Southern States have equally contributed to Karnataka Music throughout the history and they are still continuing to do so. As per guidelines, Misplaced Pages is not a place for editors pass their ad-hoc subjective judgments by naming only certain artists. This is not a music forum. It needs to be noted that logical measure of contribution is quality not volume. Current posted information is not logical.

8) Again it is requested not to stall using word POV. It is a observation for the need to add a photo Trinity’s for completeness of the article. naadpriya has great respect to Sri Papanasam Sivam who is considered by many as a reincarnation of Sri Purandara Daasa himself in composing great devotional Tamil Krithis. For sure he deserves a photo in the article along with Trinity.

9) It is a subjective issue and article cannot be frozen. Again the purpose of the article is to give a road map and not teach music. Objective opinion is needed from those higher than editors on this issue

10) Reason need to be stated with evidence why it is not logic rather than vague statement ‘not logic’. Again response is leading to stalling the logical discussion as in the past by using unwarranted words like ‘threat’. Please using them. Further such usage will lead to a request for blocking. It is recommended to check dictionary carefully before using inappropriate words. Use of unwarranted words and stalling the discussions is against the Misplaced Pages policy. Please do not try to own the article by preventing edits. Continuation of such effort will imply a consent to create a new article.

It is requested Admn to unlock this article and allow logical needed editing. It is requested that Admn should refrain from ‘Ad-hoc- locking when discussions are in progress about this controversial article. Current decisions by Admn strongly leads to the conclusion that they are subjective and not objective neutral decisions. If Misplaced Pages still allows this article as is, a separate article on Karnataka Classical music is essential to provide accurate facts. As per Misplaced Pages, lack of response from Admn will be considered as a consent to start a new article on Karnataka Music.Naadapriya (talk) 08:20, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Comment and request - I've been away from this article for a long time now for various reasons. Just skimming through both your comments makes me feel that the differences are quite small and can easily be sorted out. I have been on vacation from wikipedia for about 2 months and am just limping back. Request both of you to please hold your fire for a while and I will also go through the issues and try to help. This is an article quite dear to me and it pains me to see its sorry state - though it has been steadily (but slowly) improving under Ncmv's watch. If we could all put our efforts together, we could easily make this a GA or a FA. For this, imo, we will have to start with the grassroots articles and gathering proper sources. Towards this end, I'd put together Haridasas and Carnatic music and Vijayanagara musicological nonet and maybe a few stubs. Request both of you to go through it and see if we can import some info/refs from there. Either way, let us go about it with a calm mind and improve this article. It certainly deserves better. Sarvagnya 18:34, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Very important -- etymology

Need to add to article: etymology of "Carnatic"/"karṇāṭaka". Most Tamil Carnatic musicians claim the term is not derived from Karnataka but is an indigenous Tamil word meaning "homeland" or something similar. Badagnani (talk) 21:18, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

What Tamil musicians claim is unimportant and immaterial. What historical and epigraphal research says (in the mainstream) is important. BTW, I saw your note on Sarvagnya's talk page claiming "Karnataka" is a new name. I really think you need to do some more reading. The word Karnataka has been used as far back as Panini and Mahabharata. However, I do agree that the term has had varying boundaries over different periods, though always inclusive of the Kannada speaking region. In the 12th century, even distant Devgiri (modern Daulatabad) was included in Karnata country. I have not read anywhere regions in Tamil speaking areas being called Karnataka. Ofcourse, one has to be very careful. Indian languages are very versatile, and it is very easy to conjucture native meanings and etymologies for just about any Indina term. As an example, some historians claim the the term "Maharashtra" came from an old Kannada word which meant "great forest" (or something to that effect).Dineshkannambadi (talk) 20:20, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, it is important and material. In English, this genre of music is known as Carnatic music, throughout India and the world. Other reliable and verifiable sources, including encyclopedias, use this title. Carnatic refers to a historic region of South India that used to span between the now-known states of Tamil Nadu, Andhra, and Karnataka. It is commonly accepted that Hindusthani music refers to music from the North, and Carnatic music refers to music from the South, and this is both sensible and current with what this genre of music is known as in English today. Ncmvocalist (talk) 05:21, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I fully agree with the usage of "carnatic" as a region covering southern India, because perhaps thats how the British saw it. What I meant was, claiming that the term Karnataka in Karnataka Sangeeta Shastra comes from a Tamil word may be pure conjecture and needs to be proven with historical, literary and epigraphal evidence. Just pulling up a Tamil dictionary, finding a few words in it that resemble Karnataka and claiming that Karnataka comes from that is unacceptable. Musicians are not history experts, nor do they have indepth knowledge of epigraphy. Its a different story if historians like K.A.N. Sastri or epigraphists like I Mahadevan make that claim based on field studies and are backed by various other researchers to satisfy WP:UNDUE. Dineshkannambadi (talk) 12:15, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

But such evidence isn't always enough. The WP:UNDUE principle would work in many instances (especially where things can be proven beyond reasonable doubt, like the Earth example). Epigraphy can be much more complex, and much less certain - especially in this instance where researchers could probably just as easily rebutt one's research with their own. There is no absolute certainty on this topic, and it is little wonder why no truely reliable and verifiable source on this genre of music, goes into the topic of etymology. Ncmvocalist (talk) 14:32, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Historians dont make it a habit to rebut research of others for they have to worry about their own repuation also, which is why the concept of "popular theory exists".Dineshkannambadi (talk) 15:07, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

...yet, research in very obscure areas, like the one that is being discussed, often results in conflicting theories and one cannot be ascertained (with certainty) as the popular one. Ncmvocalist (talk) 15:45, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Observation

While reading this article, I noticed this statement,

"According to some scholars, Carnatic music shares certain classical music concepts with ancient Tamil music. The concept of Pann is related to Ragas used in Carnatic music.. The rhythmic meters found in several musical forms (such as the Tiruppugazh) and other ancient literature, resemble the talas that are in use today"

Can someone elucidate why this has to be in this article. Isnt it better in an article such as "Music of Tamilnadu". Why give undue attention to a music form that shares some resemblence to carnatic music. I am sure there are other music forms too which share similarities to Carnatic music. In addition, I think we need to take a careful look at the templates that provide us with names of past/present musicians. Looking at that part, It seems that the contents may be geographically lopsided.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 13:14, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Not really. These are the names of the most prominent Carnatic musicians worldwide. Please do elaborate how it 'seems' that the contents 'may be' geographically lopsided.

The attention is not 'undue'. If there are any similarities (to such a great extent) from other past music forms in, with reliable and verifiable sources to back it up, then please do mention it here. Otherwise, you may be seen to be suggesting something rather absurd; the statement is totally dependent on whether a mention is given to every other Ancient music form that shared similarities of such proportions.

Anyway, the talk page archive of this article may reveal more on this topic of why it had to be included. I felt it was not unreasonable to give a very brief mention, and this mention was enough to gain consensus among the editors involved in the dispute. The mention was also allowed as Thiruppugazhs have been (in the past), and still are a form that are frequently rendered in many Carnatic kutcheris. Obviously, there are other forms, but this seems most relevant as an example in today's context. Ncmvocalist (talk) 14:15, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not suggesting anything absurd. I am asking what does that comment have to do with the "Origin and History" of Carnatic music". I will get to the template a little later.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 15:02, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Because it is an important source from which Carnatic music is derived, and therefore, played a part in the historical evolution of Carnatic music. Ncmvocalist (talk) 15:38, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I dont see the article saying that Carnatic music is derived from ancient Tamil music. It only says "resembles" and "similar".Dineshkannambadi (talk) 15:46, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Didn't notice that. Will make the edition soon. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:22, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Before you do that, please provide ISBN numbers and exact page numbers of the sources you refer to. I realise some Indian books dont have ISBN, but some form of ID is always available. This helps in the verification process. Please ensure that the theory is accepted by a wide range of scholars, not from a particualar geographical area.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 16:41, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

The necessary information (to comply with Misplaced Pages's referencing policies) have already been provided. In this case, the book (referenced by another editor) is readily available and the prominent website has also published some/all of the material contained in the book. Ncmvocalist (talk) 23:30, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I am still working on response to earlier comments. To prove the obvious fact I am getting hard latest evidences based on information posted on official websites of a country and a reputed university. Since I will be on business seminar travels it may take a while to post it. However, I see interesting discussions going on in this section. It needs to be noted that information created by vested interest groups can not be objective evidences. They include other encyclopedia which may have roots to a particular country and defend the acts by that country when they had occupied other countries. Tailor made books following the philosophy ‘keep telling lies to younger generation hoping it becomes true one day’. Also it is requested from editors depending the current contents of the article to stay focused on answering questions than taking a stalling ‘Vithanda vaada’ (evasive) approach hoping that others give-up as in the past. Naadapriya (talk) 18:11, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

The information is valid as far as Misplaced Pages's referencing policies are concerned, and removing such information would be in violation of another of Misplaced Pages's policy. Naadapriya's supposed personal business does not concern this article. Ncmvocalist (talk) 23:30, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Please dont use measly websites to prove such "great theories". Provide scholarly evidence from various scholars. Claiming carnatic music was born out of ancient Tamil music is a major claim. In the mean time, we should also examine how many scholars call Carnatic music, Karnataka music to give an opportunity for all scholars to voice their opinion here.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 01:06, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

The claim isn't carnatic music was born out of ancient Tamil music - please stop misrepresenting what is being said. It is merely A source (of the many already mentioned) from which Carnatic music is derived - that is not a major claim. Ncmvocalist (talk) 02:40, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Any reader who does not know about real history of South Indian Classical Music, Karnataka Sangeeta a.k.a Carnatic music, will be misled by current information on Carnatic Music. Major or minor, it is a wrong claim based on unregulated and self created websites. It violates the 'evidence' policy set by highly regulated Misplaced Pages in using references. It should be removed as suggested by many.Naadapriya (talk) 05:00, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Alternate spellings

While "Carnatic music" is the most common rendering of the name of this tradition in English, "Karnatak music" and "Karnatik music" are also seen. Badagnani (talk) 08:41, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. Feel free to add it right away. Ncmvocalist (talk) 12:42, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Just because it was made common by a specific group it can not change the fact that the original name is 'Karnataka Music'. It is in continous use since its birth by all music scholars, even as of Feb 10, 2008 by the scholars of presigious Mysore University while confeering a honorary doctorate degree to a famous Karnataka musician Dr Bala Murali Krisna. This issue is smilar to the fact that no one wants to call the city Chennai as Madras anymore though it was most commonly used wrong name for a long time. The original names if got changed due to wrong reasons should be brought back on sites such as Misplaced Pages whose purpose is to state accurate facts.Naadapriya (talk) 19:11, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

No, in fact "a specific group" had nothing to do with it. English-speaking scholars and enthusiasts of South Indian classical music, who are not of Indic descent, have tended to gravitate toward this spelling in recent decades, simply because the terms beginning with "K" have an orthography that is more similar to current Indic romanization conventions. Badagnani (talk) 19:54, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

"Karnataka music" is not commonly used (and in fact I have never seen this spelling) in the English-speaking world. This term would seem to refer to music only from the state of Karnataka, while Carnatic/Karnatak/Karnatic music is performed in many parts of India. Badagnani (talk) 19:56, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I Think you would find this interesting. Actually, I am more used to the term Karnataka music than Karnatak music, even in scholarly books on music. , , , , . This are just a few examples. Many more are available with a simple google search and I dont think the authors are discussing "Music in Karnataka" but rather Carnatic music.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 20:38, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for this--are you sure, however, that the books are not referring to just music from the Karnataka state? Badagnani (talk) 20:53, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Lets go one link at at a time,

• Link #1 -->talks about Kuchipudi, a dance form in Kerela state and is not written by Kannadigas
• Link #2 -->starts the paragraph with Bharata Muni, the sage accredited with writing the early treatises but the content is too complex for me. You would find Bharata muni writen about both on Carnatic music and Bharatanatyam pages.
• Link 3--> All the music forms discussed (pg 157-159) are from Carnatic music and are on the current article (Kriti, Pallavi etc)
• Link 4--> Discusses interactions between Karnataka music with Kuchipudi (from Kerela)
• Link 5--->Is a tribute by Dr. Rajendra Prasad (1st. President of India) who calls Tyagaraja (from Tamil Nadu, who composed in Telugu language) as one among the great composers of Karnataka music. On the curren aticle, Tyagaraja is listed as one among the Trinity of Carnatic music.

Dineshkannambadi (talk) 21:14, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your great expertise. I see now that this terminology seems to be used by at least some Indians writing in the English language. I suggest an "Etymology" section presenting various sources to show which terms have been used--where and when (i.e., which terms have been used in the Western world, and by whom, and when the shift began from "Carnatic" to "Karnatak," as well as which terms have been used in India). Badagnani (talk) 21:24, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

""Karnataka music" is not commonly used (and in fact I have never seen this spelling) in the English-speaking world." - No. "Karnataka music" is quite commonly used by academia and scholars in the English-speaking world. R. Satyanarayana and N Ramanathan (of TamilNadu and Dean/Principal (former?) of the Madras Music College) are just two of many scholars who use "Karnataka music" in their works (english works). Several universities in India offer diplomas in "Karnataka music". Sarvagnya 22:23, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

As stated above, "I see now that this terminology seems to be used by at least some Indians writing in the English language." The term isn't widely used in the United States, Canada, Europe, Australia, New Zealand, or South Africa. Badagnani (talk) 22:39, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually, Badagnani, Karnatak is just a North Indian way of saying Karnataka. A person from North India would call the father of Karnataka/Karnatak/Carnatic music "Purandaradas" where as in the south we call him "Purandaradasa", with the extra "a" at the end. This is something that is normal in India.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 00:48, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Need of the Hour

I see that this article has hit a road block due to two reasons. The first being an experienced user:Ncmvocalist who may have taken ownership of the article and is aggressively using questionable web sites to prove very important theories. The second reason is, a possible new user user:Naadapriya, who may have useful information, from reliable sources regarding the topic, but has failed (perhaps in haste and inexperience) to generate a cohesive, well cited paragraph explaining why Carnatic music is only an English version of "Karnataka music" (which we know is a fairly popular name used by scholars from across South India). But being a newcomer, he may still be in the process of learning how to bring data to the table, build concensus and give full citations. I really think his data should be given room for examination instead of trying to suffocate him out. All this may be frustrating the user:Naadapriya who seems to be at his wits end about it.

The need of the hour is to take the article back to where it was before the reverting started, examine each issue one by one or in conjunction, prove validity of citations, especially while claiming origins, which is naturally the most sensitive topic and hardest to prove.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 11:43, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Continuing from where I left off, I hope Naadapriya does not mind my criticism of his methods. I am only trying to help. It seems, from your comments, that you may have more knowledge about carnatic music than I do, for instance. This makes you all the more valuable to the article, if you can put together material in an acceptable way. Please take a look at the last paragraph in the "history" section, on "Instrumental music". It took me a month of reading and writing a subarticle on Musicians of Mysore Kingdom, to prove I had done sufficient study of the matter and that the era was a golden age of carnatic music before bringing that paragraph in (which none-the-less met with some minimal resistance from Ncmvocalist initially around Sept 9th 2007). No one can challenge such content. If you want to prove that Karnataka music was born in Karnataka, you need to put together a paragraph that is clear and full of valid citations, properly prosed to avoid POV and to the point. I hope this helps.Dineshkannambadi (talk) 13:01, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Synthesis, weaseling and what not!

According to some scholars, ancient Tamil music is a source from which Carnatic music is derived as both styles of music share certain unique classical music concepts. The concept of Pann is considered to be a precursor to the Raga system in Carnatic music, while the rhythmic meters found in several musical forms (such as the Tiruppugazh) and other ancient literature, resemble the talas that are in use today.

I've wasted weeks pointing out the obvious nonsense in the above paragraph (and other assorted nonsense) before. Let us do it one more time. Here we go -

According to some scholars, ... - classic weasel . not to mention that is non-RS.

ancient Tamil music is a source from which Carnatic music is derived as both styles of music share certain unique classical music concepts... - that is a paraphrase of what the non-RS says. Neither Sambamurthy nor any other sources go that far.

The concept of Pann is considered to be a precursor to the Raga system in Carnatic music, - oh really? Lets see what Sambamurthy says -

Sambamurthy says (if the cherry picked sources are to be believed) -

1. The pans of the Thevaram are historically old ragas (page 91); - the panns of the Tevaram?? The very verses dating from the 8th or 10th(or later) AD? Or were there some Thevarams before even Bharata's natya shastra(2nd-4th BC) or even Matanga's Brhaddesi(7-8th CE) which give us the earliest descriptions of Ragas were penned? Or the Ramayana and Mahabharata which have references to "Raga".. or the Sama Veda (Sama gana) which by common consensus is the 'precursor' to modern Indian classical music and all its technical baggage.
2. It is in the pans of the Thevaram that we first come across full-fledged bhashanga ragas" (page 91); - thevaram again!
3. "The pans of Tevaram are all jiva ragas"(page 92)” - and again!

So what is Sambamurthy talking about when he talks of the panns of the thevaram. I will tell you. He's simply pointing out in passing, as academically as he can, the similarities between the two systems. That doesnt mean the Carnatic raga owes anything to the pann! For that matter, musicologists routinely throw in tidbits about the similarities between all the musical traditions of the world. That doesnt mean we conclude that Indian music gave birth to the music of Timbuktu or vice-versa!

So, can someone explain to me how one arrived at "Pann is considered to be a precursor to the Raga system in Carnatic music,.." from 1, 2 and 3 above?

And in any event, Sambamurthy's allusions to the panns belong (after careful and critical study of its meaning and context) in the Raga article. Not here.

"...while the rhythmic meters found in several musical forms (such as the Tiruppugazh) and other ancient literature, resemble the talas that are in use today...."

Ohh.. now we cut to the Arunagirinathar's 15th century!! 15th century - 3 full centuries after Sharngadeva's encyclopaediac Sangita Ratnakara!...(not to mention, Vidyaranya's Sangita sara). And we are to believe that the theory of the Tala was still waiting for its 'precursor'(?)! And pray, what is that thing about "...and other ancient literature..."?!! Would someone bother spelling out?

Given the amount of bad faith weaseling and the out of context twisting of cherry picked sound bites that has gone into putting that paragraph together, the authors of that para and those who are edit warring to keep it, owe us an explanation. Mere "rv removal of cited information" is not going to fly. Sarvagnya 00:56, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

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