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Revision as of 19:59, 19 July 2005

Religious persecution by Jews

A confused work of pure original research. 95% of it deals with actions of the ancient Israelite tribes over 3500 years ago; describing them as Jews is dubious at best, and the "historical source document" for the actions listed (the Old Testament) is considered even more dubious by most modern historians. As well, it throws in one sentence asserting that the Arab-Israeli conflict may (or may not be) an example of "religious persecution by Jews", ignoring the more obvious ethnic underpinnings of the conflict. No credible sources have been brought which assert that any of this is actually "religious persectution by Jews"; it seems to be another back-door attempt to revive the "Jewish ethnocentrism" topic using a novel approach; articles on that topic have already been deleted via two VfDs: Perhaps there is an article that could be written about this topic, though it's not clear exactly what it would be referring to, but this article certainly isn't it. Jayjg 18:09, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

• Delete. Jayjg 18:09, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
• Strong Keep This article, like the articles on Religious persecution by Muslims and Religious persecution by Christians covers a very real and very notable topic. These articles are intended to be the first three of a series of articles covering outgroup religious persecutions committed by members of the world's religious/spiritual groups. So far all the contributors to these pieces have shown themselves willing to withdraw or source material that others request be sourced. I agree, of course, that these articles are likely to attract POV warriors. But this is not grounds for preemptively destroying the articles. If you have particular complaints, please make them on the Talk pages so that they can be addressed. Don't just impulsively go a VfD. Also, I suggest that this might as well be a VfD on all three of them, and on the other planned additions to this series, since each of the articles in the series covers equivalent topics. I think it would be a shame if this new series were deleted out of wikicowardice and unwillingness to protect Misplaced Pages from the POV mosquitoes who will be attracted to these articles. Babajobu 18:14, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
  • You comments do not deal with any of the issues I raised. Please focus on them. Oh, and providing a source does not help at all with the Original Research problem, unless the source itself also asserts that the information provided is an example of Religious persecution by Jews. Jayjg 18:20, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
    • I'm absolutely flummoxed by your claim that this is original research. Please help. I guess I'm slow. I quite literally do not understand what you mean when you say that it is original research to state that the Bible claims that Jews, qua Jews, committed acts of violence against non-Jews. Take a look at my Misplaced Pages edit history and see whether you think I am acting out of the anti-Jewish agenda you suspect has motivated this article. Babajobu 18:33, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Please review the Misplaced Pages:No original research article; the "Religious persecution by Jews" article asserts that there is such a phenomenon as "Religious persecution by Jews", and that actions by the ancient Israelite tribes constitute examples of the same. This is a novel thesis which needs to be supported by citeable sources. Considering that the Bible is not considered a particularly reliable historical source, and that the Bible nowhere says the incidents mentioned were done by Jews (but rather by Israelites), the whole article is questionable. Jayjg 19:26, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
    • I would posit that drawing a connection between ancient Israelites and modern day Jews is not a "novel thesis". Certainly members of every synagogue on the planet would be startled to learn that this is a novel thesis, as would anyone who has glanced at any primary or secondary source covering 2300 years of post-Tanakh Jewish theology or Jewish history. "Moses was a Jew" is not an outlandish assertion, though it certainly can stand for scholarly qualifications. Anyway, why did you not raise these concerns on the Talk Page? Why did you go straight to VfD? And yes, you did speculate on the motivations of the contributors, by speculating that the article was an attempt to revive some already deleted article that none of us had actually heard of. Babajobu 19:35, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
      • If it's not a "novel thesis", then please present a scholarly source which asserts that the alleged actions of the ancient Israelites are examples of "Religious persecution by Jews". I went straight to VfD because this article was an obvious candidate for deletion. And I did not speculate about motives, but rather about actions. Jayjg 19:50, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
    • Also, please do your best to focus on the article rather than indulging in idle (and innacurate) speculation about the motives of the contributors. Thanks so much. Babajobu 18:38, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
  • I haven't speculated about any motivations at all. I've discussed apparent actions, not motivations. Jayjg 19:26, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
• Keep, cleanup, and add some sort of "religious persecution series" template to every one of these RP pages. Or maybe just a Man's Inhumanity template? — RJH 18:31, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
  • I agree that adding the template is vital. How does one create a template? Babajobu 18:36, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
• Keep - I was unaware of those two previous VFD that Jayjg highlighted, but they are irrelevent anyway. This is one part of a proposed series on Religous Persecution, a series I did not start. As for them being Jewish, a quick look at the Jew article tells me "The word Jew (Hebrew: יהודי) is used in a wide number of ways, but generally refers to a follower of the Jewish faith...." This is the first time I've heard a Jewish person tell me that Moses was not a "Follower of the jewish faith", I woul have thought he wrote the book on the Jewish faith. In all honesty this VFD seems to me to be more about making a point than a genuine reason to delete the article, frankly I would have liked Jayjgs help with this piece. But Consensus is Consensus, and we'll see how this goes. --Irishpunktom\ 18:53, July 19, 2005 (UTC)
  • For what it's worth, yes, you did start the series. No series existed until you put your nose to the grindstone and willed into creation a series you clearly wanted to see. And I'm glad you did, I think it has the potential to be a fantastic series. Babajobu 18:57, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. POV personal essay full of original research with no sources. SlimVirgin 18:58, July 19, 2005 (UTC)
  • How can you guys regurgitate this tripe?? The article has an inline sourcing for every important assertion!!! "No sources"!!! Unbelievable! Babajobu 19:03, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

    You can't rely on the Bible as your sole source. You'd need scholarly sources for an article like this. And please don't call people's comments "tripe." SlimVirgin 19:09, July 19, 2005 (UTC)

    • I agree that the great weakness of the Bible as a source must be prominently mentioned. But providing inline verbatim citation from the most frequently cited source in human history is not the same as providing "no sources"! I'm sorry for calling your comments "tripe". That was wrong. Babajobu 19:13, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

• Strong Delete - Bad enough we deal with anti-Semitism in real life, this is pure nonsense and has no place in a decent encyclopedia.Existentializer 19:14, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
  • If the article's contributors have inadvertantly added spurious, malicious material that qualifies as anti-semitic, please help us purge it. If you find any Islamophobic material in the Religious persecution by Muslims article, which has the same contributors as this VfD'd article and which includes prominent discussion of Muslim massacres of Jews, please help us purge that material as well. Nobody is trying to offend anyone. Babajobu 19:19, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. No merits. The record in the Bible, even if correct, cannot be termed "religious persecution" - it certainly was not by the standard of those times. The Biblical record is not a "hard source" for most readers, and should not be used as such. As for modern-day Israel, the so-called "religious persecution" is not the result of the perpetrators being Jews but Israelis. JFW | T@lk 19:43, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Most "religious persecutions" cited as examples were military actions and were not perpetrated because of the recipients' religion. I removed those. JFW | T@lk 19:53, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

• Strong Delete - for several reasons. 1) The evidence presented is very weak and makes the assumption that biblical literature can be used as historical sources, an assumption that would be met with harsh opposition if it were made anywhere else, e.g., the status of the West Bank and Gaza; 2) the title begs the question, namely that Jews (in some timeless sense) are guilty of religious persecution; 3) it makes a strained point that the Arab-Israeli conflict somehow is grounded in Jewish religious persecution. I certainly agree that point #2 also applies to articles about "Christian" and "Moslem" persecution as well, but this article - as often is the case in this area - appears to have a hidden agenda. If someone wants to make the point that societies in biblical times were religiously intolerant, that should make a separate article. --Leifern 19:44, July 19, 2005 (UTC)

• • I wish people would stop with the panicky speculations about "hidden agendas". I don't want to reveal too much about my real world identity here, but suffice it to say that anyone who knows me would find comical (or just nonsensical) the idea that I had been tagged as having a sinister, anti-semitic agenda. Well, what can one do. The article, and the whole series, could have been very good. I contributed more to the Religious persecution by Muslims than to this one, but still I think they all had potential. But I don't want to waste my Misplaced Pages time contributing to articles that paranoid folks will preemptively VfD and dog with their unfounded anxieties. I'm giving up on the "religious persecution" articles. I'll stick to uncontroversial topics. Have your way with it, paranoid deletionists. Ciao. Babajobu 19:54, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

• Keep or move. The original nominator had problems with it being considered Jewish, but that's not a reason for deletion. And whether the bible is historical or not is irrelavent, the bible is still extrememly notable and hence information in it is by definition notable. Stick a {{NPOV}} is u like, but don't see any reason for deletion. Sasquatch′↔Talk↔Contributions 19:57, July 19, 2005 (UTC)

• Strong Delete - I agree with most of the comments above by those urging deletion. The State of Israel is a haven of religious tolerance compared with neighbouring countries. RachelBrown 19:59, 19 July 2005 (UTC)