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Religious persecution by Jews

A confused work of pure original research. 95% of it deals with actions of the ancient Israelite tribes over 3500 years ago; describing them as Jews is dubious at best, and the "historical source document" for the actions listed (the Old Testament) is considered even more dubious by most modern historians. As well, it throws in one sentence asserting that the Arab-Israeli conflict may (or may not be) an example of "religious persecution by Jews", ignoring the more obvious ethnic underpinnings of the conflict. No credible sources have been brought which assert that any of this is actually "religious persectution by Jews"; it seems to be another back-door attempt to revive the "Jewish ethnocentrism" topic using a novel approach; articles on that topic have already been deleted via two VfDs: Perhaps there is an article that could be written about this topic, though it's not clear exactly what it would be referring to, but this article certainly isn't it. Jayjg 18:09, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

• Delete. Jayjg 18:09, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
• Strong Keep This article, like the articles on Religious persecution by Muslims and Religious persecution by Christians covers a very real and very notable topic. These articles are intended to be the first three of a series of articles covering outgroup religious persecutions committed by members of the world's religious/spiritual groups. So far all the contributors to these pieces have shown themselves willing to withdraw or source material that others request be sourced. I agree, of course, that these articles are likely to attract POV warriors. But this is not grounds for preemptively destroying the articles. If you have particular complaints, please make them on the Talk pages so that they can be addressed. Don't just impulsively go a VfD. Also, I suggest that this might as well be a VfD on all three of them, and on the other planned additions to this series, since each of the articles in the series covers equivalent topics. I think it would be a shame if this new series were deleted out of wikicowardice and unwillingness to protect Misplaced Pages from the POV mosquitoes who will be attracted to these articles. Babajobu 18:14, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
  • You comments do not deal with any of the issues I raised. Please focus on them. Oh, and providing a source does not help at all with the Original Research problem, unless the source itself also asserts that the information provided is an example of Religious persecution by Jews. Jayjg 18:20, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
    • I'm absolutely flummoxed by your claim that this is original research. Please help. I guess I'm slow. I quite literally do not understand what you mean when you say that it is original research to state that the Bible claims that Jews, qua Jews, committed acts of violence against non-Jews. Take a look at my Misplaced Pages edit history and see whether you think I am acting out of the anti-Jewish agenda you suspect has motivated this article. Babajobu 18:33, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Please review the Misplaced Pages:No original research article; the "Religious persecution by Jews" article asserts that there is such a phenomenon as "Religious persecution by Jews", and that actions by the ancient Israelite tribes constitute examples of the same. This is a novel thesis which needs to be supported by citeable sources. Considering that the Bible is not considered a particularly reliable historical source, and that the Bible nowhere says the incidents mentioned were done by Jews (but rather by Israelites), the whole article is questionable. Jayjg 19:26, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
    • Oh incidentally, the Bible repeatedly describes these events as being committed by "Yehudim" (Yud-heh-dalet-mem), then and now the Hebrew word for "Jews". I think what you are trying to say is that the Torah (pentateuch) describes only Israelites, but the transition to "Jews" is made at some point in the Nevi'im. Not that any of this will influence any votes on the VfD, which is fueled by more, uh, primal concerns. Babajobu 22:14, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
    • I would posit that drawing a connection between ancient Israelites and modern day Jews is not a "novel thesis". Certainly members of every synagogue on the planet would be startled to learn that this is a novel thesis, as would anyone who has glanced at any primary or secondary source covering 2300 years of post-Tanakh Jewish theology or Jewish history. "Moses was a Jew" is not an outlandish assertion, though it certainly can stand for scholarly qualifications. Anyway, why did you not raise these concerns on the Talk Page? Why did you go straight to VfD? And yes, you did speculate on the motivations of the contributors, by speculating that the article was an attempt to revive some already deleted article that none of us had actually heard of. Babajobu 19:35, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
      • If it's not a "novel thesis", then please present a scholarly source which asserts that the alleged actions of the ancient Israelites are examples of "Religious persecution by Jews". I went straight to VfD because this article was an obvious candidate for deletion. And I did not speculate about motives, but rather about actions. Jayjg 19:50, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
    • Also, please do your best to focus on the article rather than indulging in idle (and innacurate) speculation about the motives of the contributors. Thanks so much. Babajobu 18:38, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
  • I haven't speculated about any motivations at all. I've discussed apparent actions, not motivations. Jayjg 19:26, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
• Keep, cleanup, and add some sort of "religious persecution series" template to every one of these RP pages. Or maybe just a Man's Inhumanity template? — RJH 18:31, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
  • I agree that adding the template is vital. How does one create a template? Babajobu 18:36, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
• Keep - I was unaware of those two previous VFD that Jayjg highlighted, but they are irrelevent anyway. This is one part of a proposed series on Religous Persecution, a series I did not start. As for them being Jewish, a quick look at the Jew article tells me "The word Jew (Hebrew: יהודי) is used in a wide number of ways, but generally refers to a follower of the Jewish faith...." This is the first time I've heard a Jewish person tell me that Moses was not a "Follower of the jewish faith", I woul have thought he wrote the book on the Jewish faith. In all honesty this VFD seems to me to be more about making a point than a genuine reason to delete the article, frankly I would have liked Jayjgs help with this piece. But Consensus is Consensus, and we'll see how this goes. --Irishpunktom\ 18:53, July 19, 2005 (UTC)
  • For what it's worth, yes, you did start the series. No series existed until you put your nose to the grindstone and willed into creation a series you clearly wanted to see. And I'm glad you did, I think it has the potential to be a fantastic series. Babajobu 18:57, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. POV personal essay full of original research with no sources. SlimVirgin 18:58, July 19, 2005 (UTC)
  • How can you guys regurgitate this tripe?? The article has an inline sourcing for every important assertion!!! "No sources"!!! Unbelievable! Babajobu 19:03, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

    You can't rely on the Bible as your sole source. You'd need scholarly sources for an article like this. And please don't call people's comments "tripe." SlimVirgin 19:09, July 19, 2005 (UTC)

    • I agree that the great weakness of the Bible as a source must be prominently mentioned. But providing inline verbatim citation from the most frequently cited source in human history is not the same as providing "no sources"! I'm sorry for calling your comments "tripe". That was wrong. Babajobu 19:13, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

• Strong Delete - Bad enough we deal with anti-Semitism in real life, this is pure nonsense and has no place in a decent encyclopedia.Existentializer 19:14, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
  • If the article's contributors have inadvertantly added spurious, malicious material that qualifies as anti-semitic, please help us purge it. If you find any Islamophobic material in the Religious persecution by Muslims article, which has the same contributors as this VfD'd article and which includes prominent discussion of Muslim massacres of Jews, please help us purge that material as well. Nobody is trying to offend anyone. Babajobu 19:19, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
    • Sorry, but this article is irredeemable. The various editors who have "contributed" to it (most notably IrishPunkTom) have not seen it as a decent article but an excuse to engage in Jew-bashing. Leave it, and it will probably remain in the same state as any other article that is targeted by Misplaced Pages's Islamic population. No, I'd rather delete it and not give them the temptation. We've already got enough trouble with articles like Jihad and Islam to deal with.Existentializer 20:51, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
      • A targeted personal attack on me, and a whiff of Islamophobia, colour me surprised. --Irishpunktom\ 11:17, July 20, 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. No merits. The record in the Bible, even if correct, cannot be termed "religious persecution" - it certainly was not by the standard of those times. The Biblical record is not a "hard source" for most readers, and should not be used as such. As for modern-day Israel, the so-called "religious persecution" is not the result of the perpetrators being Jews but Israelis. JFW | T@lk 19:43, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Most "religious persecutions" cited as examples were military actions and were not perpetrated because of the recipients' religion. I removed those. JFW | T@lk 19:53, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

• Strong Delete - for several reasons. 1) The evidence presented is very weak and makes the assumption that biblical literature can be used as historical sources, an assumption that would be met with harsh opposition if it were made anywhere else, e.g., the status of the West Bank and Gaza; 2) the title begs the question, namely that Jews (in some timeless sense) are guilty of religious persecution; 3) it makes a strained point that the Arab-Israeli conflict somehow is grounded in Jewish religious persecution. I certainly agree that point #2 also applies to articles about "Christian" and "Moslem" persecution as well, but this article - as often is the case in this area - appears to have a hidden agenda. If someone wants to make the point that societies in biblical times were religiously intolerant, that should make a separate article. --Leifern 19:44, July 19, 2005 (UTC)

• • I wish people would stop with the panicky speculations about "hidden agendas". I don't want to reveal too much about my real world identity here, but suffice it to say that anyone who knows me would find comical (or just nonsensical) the idea that I had been tagged as having a sinister, anti-semitic agenda. Well, what can one do. The article, and the whole series, could have been very good. I contributed more to the Religious persecution by Muslims than to this one, but still I think they all had potential. But I don't want to waste my Misplaced Pages time contributing to articles that paranoid folks will preemptively VfD and dog with their unfounded anxieties. I'm giving up on the "religious persecution" articles. I'll stick to uncontroversial topics. Have your way with it, paranoid deletionists. Ciao. Babajobu 19:54, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

• Keep or move. The original nominator had problems with it being considered Jewish, but that's not a reason for deletion. And whether the bible is historical or not is irrelavent, the bible is still extrememly notable and hence information in it is by definition notable. Stick a {{NPOV}} is u like, but don't see any reason for deletion. Sasquatch′↔Talk↔Contributions 19:57, July 19, 2005 (UTC)
  • Actually, I had problems with it being pure original research; the fact that it uses the Bible as a historical source and equates the actions of ancient Israelites with Jews is a symptom of that problem. Jayjg 20:49, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
• Strong Delete - I agree with most of the comments above by those urging deletion. The State of Israel is a haven of religious tolerance compared with neighbouring countries. RachelBrown 19:59, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
  • How in God's name does that justify a "delete"?? Compared to Saudi Arabia, Syria is a haven of religious tolerance. Does that mean that an article asserting that religious persecution takes place in Syria would warrant a deletion??? Of course not, Syria is rife with religious persecution just like every other country in the region!! I'm sorry, but the supporting arguments for the delete votes are absolute blather!! But you POV wolves can take the whole series and delete it to your POV hearts' content. Babajobu 20:33, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
    • Kindly get off of your high horse:
      1. If you hit a bee hive, you will get stung. You hit one here.
      2. Most of what you wrote above is valid, but the part starting with "I'm sorry" is not needed.
      3. You have so far failed to produce a scolarly article on the topic. See my vote just below.
• Keep but cleanup, otherwise delete - The topic is valid, but the article as written is a poorly researched anti-semetic rant. Specific book-chapter-verse must be cited for biblical qoutes. Appropriate sources must also be cited for documenting the Arab exodus at the inception of Israel and why it is listed. Other incidents such as those noted in "A History of the Jews" are missing. Also, the use of terms like "ethnic cleansing" must be avoided. The facts can speak for themselves. We Jews have not been angels, but we have not been Nazis either. --EMS | Talk 20:48, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
  • EMS, in most other topics that were in this condition I'd probably agree with you that "keep and clean up" would be a good vote. Unfortunately, from my recent experiences and looking back at the history of articles like Jihad I'm pretty sure that this article cannot be redeemed. The moment anyone tries to do so, expect the POV warriors from those articles (and I'll note that one of the worst offenders, IrishPunkTom, frequents both) to come running for a chance to bash Jews.Existentializer 20:53, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
    • Right, thanks for that Personal attack. You will of course note that I have edited the noted Jihad article less than once. --Irishpunktom\ 11:13, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

• • • Yes, I agree that putting terms like "ethnic cleansing" in these articles does nothing but fan POV flames, and should be avoided. I agree with you that cleanup and improved citations are needed. On the other hand, I disagree that, as it exists, it is either anti-semitic or a rant. The biblical quotes are cited "book-chapter-verse". I agree that the discussion of the dislocation of Palestinians must include other arguments and explanations for this dislocation, just as I have tried to solicit Muslim explanations for Muhammad's massacre of the Banu Qurayza at the Religious persecution by Muslims article. That article is no more Islamophobic than this article is antisemitic. Babajobu 20:58, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
      • The article on the book of joshua uses the word genocide, and I thought, perhaps unwisely, that Ethnic Cleansing was less POV-laden and more Flame-resistant than genocide. Also, it did originally cite specific Verse, Chapter and book but these were edited away by another--Irishpunktom\ 21:55, July 19, 2005 (UTC)
      • Babajobu wrote:

I disagree that, as it exists, it is either anti-semitic or a rant.

I do not believe that this was the intent, but it sure is the effect. For example, you use Ethnic cleansing as a header instead of Palestinian exodus and Biblical incidents. Compare this article with what you did for Religious persecution by Muslims, which is much more broad and where the headers have no inflamatory POV.

However, I repeat that your worst offense is that you do not know the material. Since we Jews have for most part had little opportunity to perseucte over the last 2500 years it is a somewhat sparse record, but it does exist and you have barely scratched its surface. For example, there was a forced conversion episode during the Maccabean period that is famous amongst Jewish scolars, but which you are apparently quite ignorant of. You need to settle down, do your research, and produce a product that is at least as concise and comprehensive as Religious persecution by Muslims is.

If this gets deleted, I encourage you to try again later, once you can produce a product on a par with Religious persecution by Muslims. Note that Religious persecution by Muslims has not been marked for deletion. Nor has Religious persecution by Christians, but that is stub anyway. --EMS | Talk 05:10, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

EMS, thanks for that comment, it was appreciated. I had only barely began the piece and my intention was to start at the prophets work my way through history and end up at Present-Day israel. The Palestinian Exodus was edited in, I had said that Critics of israel claim that the foundation of the state ofd Israel was an attempt at Ethnic Cleansing, And that is a point I've eard made many times over, I then noted that rougly One-Fifth of the current population is Arab, which substantially disproves that, I would have thought. I appealed for help from Jayjg_{See his talk page}, but he just VFD'ed it. I do, or rather did, need help with this, I don't claim to be an expert of the history of the jewish people throughout the lands, and if this article stays (Which looks unlikely) then I will still appeal for help. The more specificly Jewish editors involved hen the better, surely, this will be. If it gets removed I'll be requesting Religious persecution by Christians get taken off too. --Irishpunktom\ 11:32, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

• New vote: Delete or reduce to a stub. This is a poor attempt to document a legitimate subject. The author shows that he can do better in Religious persecution by Muslims. This article needs and deserves at least that much better. --EMS | Talk 05:10, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

• Delete the Bible is not a historical source. If the crimes alleged to have been committed by the Israelites are true, I doubt it had much to do with religion other than land or resources. Revolución 21:39, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
• Delete per Jayjg . --TheMidnighters 22:16, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Shalom l'koolam. Why don't all the delete voters help me out with my new Adi Barkan article. Why not spend more time showing off the clean laundry, and less time trying to bury the dirty laundry? Babajobu 22:23, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
• Keep. I get the feeling some deletes are politically, rather than empirically, motivated. Themindset 22:44, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
  • And I get the feeling that some keeps are politically motivated. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 08:57, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. Per reason stated above and because this article have little in common, if any, with religious persecution. MathKnight 22:56, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
• Delete unless solid sources can be provided. Capitalistroadster 23:54, 19 July 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. Discussion of religious persecution should go in the religious persecution article. Allowing separate articles making allegations against specific ethnic or religious groups is inherently POV. Kaibabsquirrel 00:49, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
• Strong Delete. Per Jayjg and MathKnight.--Eliezer | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€ 01:29, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
• Delete, unless substantially revised with historical citations. Appears to be original research to support both antisemitic and anti-Zionist views. (Note, the two are not the same -- but this particular instance favors both.) To be acceptable, this article needs to be revised on the basis of citations from works of history; works of political advocacy need not apply. --FOo 01:35, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. Low content, no reputable sources. humblefool®Have you voted in the CSD poll yet? 02:11, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
• Keep. I'm delighted to learn that Moses was not Jewish. I'm not so delighted that some editors simply want to suppress any and all articles that discuss Jews and or Israelis with less than fulsome praise. Grace Note 04:16, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
  • "less than fulsome praise"? You must be kidding. WP is full of articles and everyday attempts to blame "the Jews". Need examples? ←Humus sapiens←Talk 08:57, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. WP:NOR, WP:CITE, WP:NPOV, and I could just go on and on.... func(talk) 04:39, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
• Keep. Expand. Provides NPOV by other articles at links. Peter Ellis 05:00, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
• Keep and Cleanup Current article is fairly useless, topic is valid. There may be meta-objections to the "Persecution by..." series (POV magnet, etc.), but one VfD is not the the place to raise them. Xoloz 05:41, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
• Keep, in the sense of merge with Anti-semitism (and then rename to something suitable). Definitely needs cleanup and expanding though. ~~~~ 07:19, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
  • Could you explain your vote please? I don't get how and why persecutions by Jews be merged with persecutions of Jews. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 08:57, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
• Delete, unless substantially revised with historiographical citations. El_C 07:26, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
• Keep as per User:Xoloz. JamesBurns 08:06, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
• Delete: just as the article on Anti-Semitism does not list Pharaoh, Haman, Amalekites, etc., so we should not base allegations of "religious persecutions by Jews" based solely on Biblical account: this is not a Biblepedia. The inclusion of today's Israel is especially insidious and clearly show someone's political agenda. ←Humus sapiens←Talk 08:44, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
• Delete. Original research. --Viriditas | Talk 09:45, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
• Delete, as per Misplaced Pages:Votes for deletion/Religious persecution by Muslims. Axon 10:21, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
• Strong delete, WP:NOR, WP:POV. Radiant_>|< 12:14, July 20, 2005 (UTC)
• Strong delete - I can conceive of no reason for this article other than to stir up trouble. And for the benefit of the sarcastic person who didn't realise Moses wasn't Jewish, of course he wasn't - the concept of Jews at that time (as opposed to Israelites) is an anachronism. Poetlister 12:44, 20 July 2005 (UTC)