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Arbitrators active on this case

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Procedural question on recusal

I see that various users have called for Morven to recuse based on hostile comments he has made surrounding this issue on outside forums, such as Wikbak, and due to the fact he was subscribed to the underground Wikia.com mail list wpCyberstalking list along with Mantanmoreland. I don't have any opinion myself anymore, and have redacted my own agreement with the recall request on my original opening comment. I really don't feel like taking part in this epic mess since I'm frankly burned out on my current Waterboarding RFAR and need a break in general. This one technical point got me curious, however, as it's a related to the various heated arguments in the IRC case.

My question is, since the Arbitration Committee and Jimbo Wales are only empowered by the goodwill of the community, does the community theoretically have the ability to enforce recusal, if enough established users called for an Arbiter to sit out a case? I understand there is no precedent for this, but I ask as the Committee only has any authority because the community lets them. Lawrence § t/e 00:22, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

See here. The decision to recuse is by policy left to the individual Arbitrator, and there is no other established method for requesting/enforcing a recusal (See WP:Arbitration policy). Avruch 00:24, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

That is to say, the policy would need to be changed by consensus in order to create a new method for forcing recusal. Avruch 00:25, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Well yes, I saw that, but I asked here afterwards as the community can change anything it wants to outside the Foundation level (but that can be changed as well, since the community can always scrub the entire Foundation Board with an election or two). The community controls everything and anything in the end. Lawrence § t/e 00:26, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Not so. For a start, the english wikipedia community is not the sum of the wikimedia community, so watch how you use the word "community". Second, WMF has core purposes, which cannot be votes out of existence. Anyway, that's pretty irrelevant to the question of recusal. I'm sure that a consensus of arbs, or the intervention of Jimbo could compel a recusal if they wished to. However, in fact, I doubt they would.--Doc 00:33, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

The clerk, Rlevse, has told me that the procedure for requesting recusal is to first ask the individual arbitrator, which I have done . If the arbitrator refuses, which Morven has done , then I'm supposed to take the request to another arbitrator, which I have done . NewYorkBrad then replies that there is currently no way to force an arbitrator to recuse themselves. Cla68 (talk) 00:31, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Let me clarify my statement. Sorry for the confusion. There is no set policy here. I advised Cla68 using standard wiki policies, ie, approach the person directly first and politely ask. Then use other means, which here would logically be ask another arb and/or send to the arb mail list. To me this makes sense and gives the requestor (Cla68 here) a means of "appeal" if the requestee (Morven here) does not respond or does not grant the request. It may be arbcom needs a formal policy on this, I'm not sure, but it'd probably be akin to what I outlined I expect if they did come up with one. — Rlevse • Talk • 02:32, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I would say that the question will probably come up again, so a formal process probabaly should be established. Yet another forum requiring the arbitrators to respond to. Cla68 (talk) 02:42, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I will state that should more than one other Arbitrator ask or advise or suggest that I reconsider and recuse, I will do so. This applies to all cases, not just this one. However, there are no rules that compel this. No arbitrator has yet made such a suggestion.

Note that I am at a convention from tomorrow through Monday night, and will not be editing Misplaced Pages nor reading my email during this time. Just FYI so nobody thinks I'm ignoring them. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 07:18, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Comment

First of all, my apologies if this consideration has been noted before.

One thing for arbitrators to consider when proposing remedies is how to avoid endorsing the methods Judd Bagley (WordBomb) has been utilizing. If the committee determines the Mantanmoreland and Samiharris accounts belong to the same individual (regardless of whether it is Gary Weiss or not), I think it should take care to make clear that the way Bagley has been pursuing the issue is, well, not the ideal way to expose sockpuppetry.

But that brings up another issue - what is the ideal way for this sort of allegation to be made? Would this case have even come about if Bagley hadn't been pursuing it from Misplaced Pages Review and his website? Would SirFozzie have compiled his evidence subpage and filed this request if he hadn't been reading Bagley's posts on that site? If not for the wealth of offsite evidence in addition to what WordBomb listed at the checkuser request, would checkusers have taken Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/Samiharris seriously? It is disturbing to consider that this sockpuppetry could have continued for even longer if not for Bagley's tactics. I think we need a better way for people to make credible sockpuppetry allegations against established editors without fear of retribution (note the credible requirement). I doubt a proposed decision could address all of this, but it's something to keep in mind. Picaroon (t) 02:44, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree there are some very large challenges to the project to come out of this, but it starts by not ignoring the real abuses going on (by all sides of this and other disputes). --Rocksanddirt (talk) 02:49, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Good thoughts from both of you. Getting to the root of any systemic corruption and exposing problematic editors is a good thing. Maybe the transparency found at other objective sources is a great thing, in the final analysis. Anonymous editing can lead to a kind of trouble that passes all understanding. Like a Rainbow (talk) 22:44, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Heard a rumor...

The word is that you might start posting proposals in the next few hours. I really hope that's true. The talk pages seem to have jumped the shark (several times, in fact), and I doubt many people will read the whole workshop, now pushing 500k. I certainly haven't.

I just want to know if the arbitrators need any more evidence in particular, so I'm eagerly anticipating your findings of fact. Good night. Cool Hand Luke 06:51, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Waiting on an arbcom decision is similar to waiting for a US jury verdict. Since we can't see their deliberations, we can't tell how close they are to reaching a decision. I expect that they'll start posting some findings soon. Cla68 (talk) 06:54, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Comment on the proposed decision

My approach to the proposed decision attempts to reflect a consensus of several arbitrators rather than solely my own views as the arbitrator posting the draft. And please see the second paragraph under United States v. One Book Entitled Ulysses by James Joyce#Appeal. Newyorkbrad (talk) 02:56, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

if there's nothing about the MM/GW/SH connection, the order of the day is apparently whitewash. brad, I have a LOT of respect for you, but if there's not going to be anything about the connection, then ArbCom has wasted a lot of people's time and lived up to the stereotype that others have placed on it. SirFozzie (talk) 03:11, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Not to mention ignoring the overwhelming consensus on the RfC and in the comments on the evidence that came to light in the arbitration case. Viridae 03:21, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. The majority of the arbcom' (ie, the ones who don't have blinkers on) believe that they are socks, but a two-time sockpuppeter (and let's not forget the double votes, and double participatiopn in previous arbcom cases) shouldn't get anything more then told if he edits that article any MORE that he has to establish his COI? This is nothing more than a whitewash, and gives the folks who trash us evidence that they are exactly what they say we are. SirFozzie (talk) 03:26, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I am going to do my best to let the decision speak for itself, and allow time for the other arbitrators to comment, but commenters need to focus on the principles established and the remedies enacted (some of which are novel) in addition to a specific finding that some may find not strong enough and others may find too strong. Newyorkbrad (talk) 03:27, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Judging by the case pages there is a handful of people who will find the proposed decision too strong. But the vast majority of those people involved in this case will find it an abhorent copout that does ntohing to address the core problems that brought this case to hand or even touch on the impressively strong suite of evidence that has been presented, notwithstanding the lack of solid CU results (and more impressive because of that). Viridae 03:46, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm very surprised if ArbCom would turn the use of open proxies into such a defense. I assumed references to the narrow scope of ArbCom indicated that it would acknowledge the violations of policy as it would in any case, but that outside parties should not assume this was some sort of legal conviction. To say that two accounts assessed by the vast majority of commenters to be sockpuppets based on overwhelming evidence are nevertheless invincible because they use open proxies does not seem like a helpful development. In more normal circumstances, I don't think ArbCom would have any problem stating that significant evidence of sockpuppetry combined with the use of open proxies is blockable of itself. Mackan79 (talk) 04:22, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

My initial thought is that I would be fine with the decision if WordBomb is unblocked and allowed to edit the articles on equal terms. This would suggest that the Committee has come to the conclusion that personalizing the dispute does not work. Otherwise, I can't see why the ArbCom would disregard the evidence, including the community consensus expressed in the RfC. Mackan79 (talk) 03:51, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

In this case a more cautious and conservative standard was needed, due to confounding issues discussed internally by the Committee. Although the evidence is respected and was extremely carefully reviewed, the most that can be said by consensus in this most bitter case is "suggestive but not confirmed"., or in other words, that because this case is so divisive, we need a completely impossible standard of evidence (I mean, look at all the work that went into this, it's not enough???), apparently, to at least some members of the ArbCom, we'd need a video of person A logging into account's B and C right after each other.. oh wait.. that would be inadmissible because it was stalking, right? SirFozzie (talk) 04:11, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

My greatest worry here is that the proposed decision adds up to a green light for vote stacking. For an experienced editor, creating hard-to-catch sockpuppets isn't all that difficult. One of the things that keeps the regulars honest has been the knowledge that the abuse would be handled firmly when the day of reckoning came. Yes, I'm thinking of Runcorn and a few other instances. But if the only downside becomes a stern talking-to and instructions not to do it again, then what's to stop the problem from becoming widespread? Durova 04:32, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Durova. This is a green light to sensitive sockpuppet vote stacking by established users. I'm very disappointed. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 05:28, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I too must voice my strong disappointment with a finding that uses "suggestive but not confirmed" wording. I acknowledge that nothing is 100% provable but the connection here is about as strong as it can be. The finding should be much more strongly worded, saying something like "extremely unlikely to be different users" rather than merely "suggestive". To do any less is to be dismissive of the massive effort the community, and particular hard working members, put into this, and to enable wikilawyering of the worst sort, as well as give ammunition to those that say that this case is a whitewash. I will have more to say later about the way too narrow scope of the findings and remedies I am sure but this is a starting point. Surely ArbCom can do better than this. We did not select you to be mealymouthed and prevaricative, we selected you to be bold and forceful and to make hard decisions and possibly unpopular findings and not let coverups be whitewashed. I hope much stronger and better language in a much broader scope is forthcoming. ++Lar: t/c 12:44, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

New evidence

Just want to mention that I posted new evidence after the Proposed Decision began to be released and voted upon. As it addresses one of the defenses that Mantanmoreland proffered (i.e., that Samiharris's similar style was a form of mimicry), I hope that the Arbcom will give it due consideration despite the lateness of its arrival. alanyst 04:22, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Standard of evidence

Does this mean that we can never block any sock puppets without a positive CU result? Only the uninformed and the unindustrious get caught by CU. If this is not your intended result, please add a clarifying principle to the case to explain the extreme discrepancy between the sock puppetry evidence standard used here and the one that we normally use. The cleverest puppetmasters will cite this case to make our work difficult over at WP:SSP (which is heavily backlogged at the moment, please consider helping). Thanks. Jehochman 04:32, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I would think that one cannot block any established account for sockpuppeting without some kind of technical match, based on this. In fact, I think that perhaps many folks should be unbanned, such as SevenofDiamonds, Poetlister, and others whom the committee has previously decided were socks of users. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 05:30, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

• The lack of checkuser results has never stopped us-the-admins and us-the-community from blocking sockpuppets before, nor should it; just as checkuser cannot prove innocence, the absence of positive checkuser results proves nothing, and for the same reason. There's nothing at all special about this case in that regard; perhaps there's no reason to mention checkuser at all in the decision. --jpgordon 05:38, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

• In that case, what would it take to show "the duck test" for these two accounts MM & SH? --Rocksanddirt (talk) 05:49, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
• I'd be very happy if the decision didn't mention checkuser. It also might be a good idea to say that the committee failed to achieve a consensus on whether sock puppetry occurred, and does not feel a determination is necessary given the remedies that have been agreed. You'd be surprised how well people react to candor. Jehochman 06:00, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

• Thank you! I was trying to figure out how to express exactly that, and luckily we edit conflicted so I got to throw my attempt away. That really is quite exactly where we are. --jpgordon 06:12, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

• That's precisely why the words "a majority of the committee" appear in the draft, to reflect going in that there is known disagreement among the membership. Newyorkbrad (talk) 06:13, 29 February 2008 (UTC) But "the committee has not reached a consensus on this issue" was an alternative formulation that was circulated and perhaps we should instead have used it. Jehochman's point is consistent with the proposed principles regarding how the committee sometimes relies primarily on forward-looking remedies. Newyorkbrad (talk) 06:18, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

• Forward looking rememdies are absolutely needed, but they only really deal with the content dispute part of this situation. The abuse of community through sockpuppetry, and what it takes to rectify this kind of abuse of the community have not been delt with yet, and that is at least as big a part of this as the content dispute part. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 06:27, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

• "the committee failed to achieve a consensus on whether sock puppetry occurred" ??? Surely that's a jest! How much more corroboration did you want? Is that actually the case that the committee failed this way?? Then things are possibly worse than I feared. Please put a finding in that states it plainly so it can be voted on, I'd like to see who on the committee actually thinks there wasn't sockpuppetry. ++Lar: t/c 12:59, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

• Concur with Lar. We need to "poll the jury" here. Cla68 (talk) 13:10, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
• Concur with Lar and Cla68 - with a request to those unconvinced for advice on what kind of evidence outside of checkuser would be sufficient. LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:55, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
• Accountability often clarifies thinking. Jehochman 15:06, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
• Concur. There should be a finding, with the dissents explaining how evidence is inadequate—there's still time to answer evidentiary objections. Cool Hand Luke 17:07, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
• Concur. In a controversial case standing by your decision on-record is helpful to let everyone understand why a thing happened. Beside that, any arbiter should be proud to stand by their choices in public, irregardless of potential repercussions. Lawrence § t/e 17:24, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
• Agree. "Polling of the jury" may be discouraged in this case to do the conflicts of interest (perhaps only pereceived) that some of the arbitrators have, expressed in findings of fact here and here. However, discouraging this transparency is a sneaky way to dodge the conflict of interest issue and looks more like an attempt to protect the bureaucracy that is arbcom, rather than seek solutions to problems. Just because someone may have advised them not to comment about this case on wiki does not make their conflicts of interests disappear. Arbitrators had the chance to ask their peers to step down and decided not to take a stand (I am seeing a theme develop, in this regard). Moreover, this is a smaller part of a bigger issue though—the community is now going to have to take the responsibility that arbcom abdicated. This is just one battle in the pursuit of righting a long standing (and quietly accepted) wrong. For arbcom, however, it seems that "more of the same" is the solution. daveh4h 17:57, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
• Concur. I should have thought this would be obvious, and am very disturbed that it is not. Please post a finding of fact that sock puppetry has occurred and then vote on it - if it fails so be it (for that matter you can/should post a finding that says the evidence is not persuasive and vote on that). In the context of this case it is quite ludicrous (and damaging to the reputation of the committee I think) to have the only FoF on the key issue be "there have been some allegations which are kinda persuasive, but we alls couldn't decide for sure one way or another." You folks need to do a 180 here by laying out your beliefs and conclusions point by point. The simple fact is that you owe that to the community.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 17:59, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
• I concur with Lar. I'm so very disappointed, I'm going away now. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 18:04, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

External disputes, definitions, and unattainable standards

• It would be helpful if the arbitrators would be more clear on what they consider an "external dispute" in this case. While we all know the whole WR/Wordbomb/Gary Weiss blog stuff would clearly fit in, it is important to note that there is another external dispute happening which is being reported in the financial media on a fairly regular basis. That dispute involves Patrick Byrne and others including Gary Weiss and relates to the entire concept of naked short selling. Given the media attention on that particular dispute, it is very difficult to imagine that the articles identified in this decision can meet Misplaced Pages standards for completeness and accuracy without some mention of that dispute. Unfortunately, some of those same reliable sources have touched upon the other aspects that are, shall we say, more interpersonal. I did ask a couple of friends who are active in this field to look at the naked short selling article, and they felt it was completely inadequate, so I hope that editors knowledgeable in this field will now feel they have the support of the Arbcom to go in and clean up the related articles.

• I am concerned that Arbcom has now established an unattainable standard for sockpuppetry investigations. Thousands of editors have been blocked with far, far less evidence in the past. Checkuser is a wonderful tool, but it is well known to have certain weaknesses, and this particular case may well have given truly malicious sockpuppeters a whole new set of tools to use in evading blocks and bans.

• Finally, I think Arbcom needs to flesh out some form of definition of "serious violations." There is a terrible tendency for the community to take Arbcom decisions and apply them as if they are policy. Unfortunately, with 1500 admins, there are 1500 definitions of incivility, of NPA and of terms such as "serious violations." This is not a criticism of our admins, but it is indeed a reason for Arbcom to be crystal clear in its meaning. The committee tends to have to go back and re-address the same issues over and over because it has not clearly delineated the expectations and limits of its decisions.
  

--Risker (talk) 04:42, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

• • I'll respond to your questions in order, though I can only speak for me:
    • There is, of course, no prohibition against mentioning the Weiss/Byrne dispute in these articles. If (and only if) editors conclude that the real-world controversy is notable and covered in reliable sources, it should be included. What is prohibited is advocacy for any side in connection with the dispute, i.e., importing the dispute itself to Misplaced Pages, as opposed to neutral encyclopedic coverage of the dispute.
    • The concern about raising the bar in sockpuppet cases is a legitimate one and I don't believe we are attempting to create a new standard to be quoted in every sock case. In fact, to the extent we are considering establishing a standard, it is the one mentioned in the proposed principles. More important, the draft decision in this case should be read as a whole, including the restrictions on editors of the subject articles that will affect the named parties to the case along with everyone else—a fact overlooked in the assessments of the draft I have seen to this point. If all editors abide by the remedies, then the problems associated with this entire suite of problems will abate. If editors do not abide by the remedies, then administrators or if necessary the committee will enforce them.
    • The term "serious violations" is used twice, once in connection with whether a warning should be given before a block, and once in connection with what types of future behavior should be reported to the committee. My personal preference in any context is to warn first rather than block if there is a reasonable choice between them, and to keep the committee more rather than less informed in a situation of this degree of contentiousness.
    • Hope this helps, and thanks for your comments. Newyorkbrad (talk) 04:52, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your response, NYB. The clarification on what level of content relating to the external disputes may be included is very valuable, and I propose that it be included on the talk page of the involved articles, so that "fresh eyes" will have the benefit of that guidance.

I believe Principle #4 (Evaluating sockpuppetry) really needs to have more flesh on its bones to clarify the position of the Committee, which is clearly not on the same page as the community in this specific case. I recognise that the Arbitration Committee, as an official body of Misplaced Pages, is constrained in ways that the editing community is not, and thus cannot put into writing some things that the community can say without fear of repercussion from external sources. Having said that, identifying right in the principle that this is an exceptional case and should not be considered the "gold standard" for future sockpuppetry investigations involving established users would be extremely helpful for those who serve the encyclopedia by investigating such cases.

Likewise, the term "serious violations" really does need to be fleshed out. What does it include? I can easily see some (not all) administrators blocking if an editor makes so much as a suggestion that another editor has a COI or may be a sockpuppet. I remain concerned that several of the editors involved in this case will perceive that they have no conflict of interest, or that admins who have carried out blocks or protections in the past will not recognize that they are "involved." In order for these articles to attain the expected level of quality, knowledgeable editors who have never touched them need to be involved. Those editors need some reassurance that they will not get whacked for cleaning up this mess. Risker (talk) 05:23, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Brad, regarding only the issue of viewing the draft decision as a whole rather than in parts - is it accurate to say that the decision need not be passed as a whole, and in fact individual portions will be voted upon separately and only those that acquire a majority will make up part of the final decision? It seems that, in such a case, each principle/FoF/remedy must stand on its own as well as with others in a final decision (i.e. not contradict other passing elements). Avruch 15:55, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

The sense of the Committee

Arbcom, please reverse direction on the style of the proposed decision. I would rather see specific and detailed findings of fact, principles, and remedies with each Arbcom member supporting, opposing, or abstaining—even if the Committee is hopelessly divided—than a vague mostly-unanimous "sense of the Committee" like what has started to appear. Each Arbcom member should be willing to take public responsibility for her or his own opinion, even if outnumbered or unpopular or wary of provoking more drama. To draw an analogy (acknowledging the differences between SCOTUS and Arbcom), I'd rather see a 5-4 U.S. Supreme Court decision with the opinion and dissent both cogently argued, than a unanimous opinion that states little more than "we acknowledge the existence of the dispute and we'd like to see it resolved." I believe I speak not only for myself in this regard. alanyst 04:49, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Absolute, 110% support for this. Was going to say the same. Viridae 04:50, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't mean to sound defensive here, but I believe the intent of the committee—certainly, mine—was to address this situation with forward-looking remedies that (per my comment to Risker above) would solve the problems if all users abide by them, and would be enforced by administrators or if necessary by the committee if users fail to abide by them. Those alleging, for example, that the articles in question are "controlled" by conflicted users should welcome the COI disclosure remedy, which to my knowledge is novel. This case is not simply about whether one user sockpuppeted abusively or not, though I certainly have my own personal opinion on that issue. I spent a fair amount of time (as did other arbitrators who commented on the draft) honing principles and remedies, not just the finding that many are saying is too vague. I don't at present see why that approach is being seen as an illegitimate approach to resolving a dispute of this gravity, and would welcome input on this issue as it may affect how I approach future cases.

On the other hand, to perpetuate the U.S. Supreme Court analogy, the next time I draft a controversial decision I am styling it per curiam. :) Newyorkbrad (talk) 04:59, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

It isn't particularly forward-looking to raise the bar for sockpuppet abuse. Any experienced editor knows how to do it. Most don't because they're honest. Most of the rest haven't because they thought there would be serious consequences. Suppose five percent of experienced editors ran extra accounts to get a boost of support in important discussions? Suppose ten percent did? Suppose fifteen? Durova 05:10, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Durova's right. We don't need per curiam decisions in this narrow case, we need to know how the next case should be handled. Please stand for something. Cool Hand Luke 05:17, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I understand what you mean about concern for future cases. I will give everyone's points some more thought. But I hope that there will never, ever, ever have to be another case at all like this one. Regards, Newyorkbrad (talk) 05:20, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

you and me, both! *laughs* SirFozzie (talk) 05:21, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I think that's the one point that meets unanimous agreement. Durova 05:23, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

On a project where we allow anonymous editing, and offer no sanctions for sockpuppetry—as this draft does not—there's absolutely no incentive for editors not to set up socks. If you let this stand, this will be the beginning, not the end. Cool Hand Luke 05:24, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Brad, are you signalling with these proposals that you're limiting the scope of the case to only Mantanmoreland's sockpuppetry and a vaguely described off-wiki dispute and leaving out Mantanmoreland's POV-pushing, personal attacks, and inappropriate support from admins? Cla68 (talk) 05:28, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

COI and NPOV issues concerning these articles are addressed in the remedies. The draft does not deal directly with personal attacks by any user; this is an actual and not a rhetorical question: do you think any side of this situation really wants to open that can of worms? I don't believe there has been much discussion of sanctions against any administrators here. Newyorkbrad (talk) 05:33, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

(Multiple edit conflicts, replying to NYB.) Thanks for replying, Brad. I have no problem with "forward-looking remedies" to calm the roiled waters of a dispute. But it's also vital to acknowledge violations of core WP policies and craft appropriate sanctions. Doing this might seem like looking backward, but the community needs to know that the rules mean something—that those who violate them will be held accountable for the sake of the encyclopedia and the trust of its community. If there are mitigating circumstances, by all means take them into account and enumerate them—but failing to acknowledge what specifically went wrong and who was responsible is unfair to the community, to the aggrieved parties, and even to those who did wrong, since it could lead them into worse behavior (having gotten away with offenses in the past). alanyst 05:31, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

That is a very reasonable point of view although in this case a consensus of the committee was to take a different approach. Since I seem to be unsuccessful at convincing the commenters so far that it was the right approach, I am going to yield the floor for a bit and see if perhaps other arbitrators would like to take a shot at doing so. Regards, Newyorkbrad (talk) 05:35, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

regarding NYB's comment that "But I hope that there will never, ever, ever have to be another case at all like this one." Based on this decision, that is hopelessly naive. I'm sorry, but if this doesn't address the actual abuses of the community by at least the most egregious of the editors involved it is not going to help. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 05:37, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Correct, and failing to remedy this abuse could only encourage more. I look forward to further findings from FT2 or any arbitrator that cares to enforce this community's rules. Cool Hand Luke 05:40, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I thought I wrote, I meant to write, remedies with some teeth in the context of this dispute. I'm interested to know why everyone seemingly thinks that they are of no value. Newyorkbrad (talk) 05:43, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

They apply equally to Cla68 and MM. Anyone involved in an edit war or with a COI could set up a sock with full knowledge that the worst that can happen is a remedy that applies equally to their opponents. That's not only no deterrence—that's encouragement for abuse. Cool Hand Luke 05:45, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

The remedies so far only deal with the content dispute, not the abuse of the community. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 06:00, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

In this specific case, there was a visible internal question on the weight to give the technical evidence. That weight varied from "damning" to "just some numbers, proves nothing". Newyorkbrad has pitched his stance and drafting at a point we have agreed, minimally, we are likely to agree upon. It may be that a stronger statement is possible (or indeed a weaker one), but as yet, Newyorkbrad has posted that draft alone, which (as he correctly states) reflect the baseline agreed by consensus. Others - self included - may post further proposals for voting, that may gain differing degrees of consensus.

But this case has been actively discussed and should be read as a whole. Yes we could itemize every last thing anyone did wrong -- for 2 years back on this dispute if need be. Do we choose to? Not in that way. A major concern is that it was allowed to be dramatized and thus roll on. The better focus is the future. The actual article issue is being addressed. The dispute on the articles will be closed. Any common editing has been almost negligible for some 5 months (we analysed that). With that closed, and intense scrutiny on all parties, it may be that there is no need for the Committee to take further action for the integrity of the project's debates and articles going forward. The question may well be moot. The community will gain a balanced consensus on the puppetry concerns, for consideration in the event that this is still of concern. Our first aim in Newyorkbrad's initial drafting is the basic measures and facts needed to sort out the dispute around which this debate has arisen, on the wiki, and ensure it comes to an end. Other more specific posts may follow. I have a couple I'm thinking of, since I was looking at various specific areas; other Arbitrators will too, I'm sure. FT2  05:37, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

While I agree that every instance of poor behavior over the two years or so that this has festered is not appropriate for remedy, at least one user has used inappropriate methods to gain the upper hand in a content dispute multiple times. And we are not going to sanction said user at all. Unless, I misunderstand and the committee is acutally asking for a community ban or other community restrictions? --Rocksanddirt (talk) 05:54, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

(Note: I'm going to bed soon. Any comments left here for me will be answered tomorrow sometime during the day. Editors asking rhetorical questions about my motives for writing the decision, but posting them on external sites where I don't have an account, are invited to ask them here or on my talkpage instead, where if they are reasonable questions I'll be glad to answer them. Newyorkbrad (talk) 05:40, 29 February 2008 (UTC))

My observation is that folks with questions on the "Board of Outer Darkness Where There is Wailing and Gnashing of Teeth" should get someone to post them here if they are real questions (i havn't looked at this time).--Rocksanddirt (talk) 05:59, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Community ban? / specific factual findings

Could we have an express finding that community sanction may be applied to users who are not "definitive" sockpuppets according to ArbCom?

Incidentally, I've asked several times for detailed requests about what sorts of evidence would be helpful to the Committee. More specific findings of fact would aid Alanyst, GRBerry, Cla68, myself, and others who are willing to fill holes that dissenting arbitrators perceive in the current evidence.

On the other had, if these dissenters feel that no non-CU evidence can establish sockpuppetry, I would appreciate if they could sign such a finding. Cool Hand Luke 06:05, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

There was some discussion of community ban back on one of the rfa/an pages, off the top of my poor memory it looked like the quick consensus was "this needs to go to arbcom." If the committee abdicates any decision back to the community, maybe we will need to fire up the rfa with that discussion in full. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 06:13, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. The Proposed Decision needs/is required to be carefully worded (Brad--could you weigh in on this if I'm off base?) so that the Committee does not appear to be overstepping their authority to imply that the community is discouraged from or prohibited from taking sanction actions based on evidence in this case after this case closes if unhappy with the outcome. My understanding of the AC's mandate and level of authority is they can impose sanctions and so forth, but have zero power beyond as any individual admins to stop or prevent the community from taking action; but that they can be an avenue of appeal to reduce community sanction; and that it would seriously take extraordinary community force and consensus to de facto overrule an already imposed AC sanction, but that the community does retain that authority.

The short version being, if the AC says no action taken by them, the Community is free to go ahead as they need to afterwards, and community sanctioned parties can appeal to the AC after if they aren't happy with that community choice--but the AC and ergo Jimmy (him "being the AC" really) is beyond their authority/power to "as the AC" to discourage or stop the Community from placing sanctions--they're all just individual admins in that regard.

Short short version: if the Community needs to ban someone for something, they can do it, and the AC/any one admin really can't stop them. Does that make sense? Let me know on what specific points I'm wrong on. If some want to take the sockpuppetry/COI to the nth and final degree with a full community discussion on the matter after this RFAR, which appears scope-wise to now be just on the editing conflicts and is MM=Samiharris, I think their concern is the Proposed Decision as it's heading may imply this is precluded.

So, a clarification on my rambling here could be helpful, and an answer to this question: if the Community wants to take this sockpuppetry/COI investigation "all the way", is the AC going to try to stop them, and does the AC even have the power to do so via a decision or anything else? I think this simple clarification will soothe a lot of people. Lawrence § t/e 06:18, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

• Your understanding is correct. --jpgordon 06:32, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
  • We haven't discussed this as a committee, but there is the precedent of Archtransit as recently as last week, although it wasn't in the context of a formal case. The committee desysopped him and limited him to a single account on Monday, but did not ban him; by Wednesday, he was community banned. Note that I am not drawing any parallels between the facts of that matter and this one, and the fact that Archtransit was an administrator was certainly an aggravating factor in that case. Newyorkbrad (talk) 06:34, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
    • Thanks guys. Your answers will calm a lot of drama before it builds, since it means the people who feel they need to go further after this case can to take and propose possible community remedies. Lawrence § t/e 06:37, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

(ec)Individual admins on the committee (or others) could stop any sort of community remedy through appeal to the commitee/jimbo who as group seem unwilling to make user sanctions in this case. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 06:35, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

This would seem to conflict with what Josh and Brad are saying. The "Community" appears to outrank the AC and Jimbo, no, if push comes to shove? Lawrence § t/e 06:37, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Again, we have not discussed this aspect as a committee at all, but to me individually there is a clear difference between deciding not to take an action as an arbitrator, and deciding to affirmatively overrule that action if taken by the community. I would say that if a community ban were imposed on some user, the ArbCom overruled or reduced the ban, and then the next day it were proposed to reimpose it, then a problematic situation would arise. But that is not this case. Personally, I do think this committee's judgment is sufficiently valuable that if we vote that a particular set of remedies is sufficient, it might be in order to give those remedies a reasonable opportunity to work before reopening the discussion. That may be more a matter of community discretion than a fixed rule. The bottom line is there are no precedents on point that I can think of at this late hour; the Archtransit situation last week, which I mention above, is the closest. Newyorkbrad (talk) 06:41, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

That's been the unanswered question does the community get an override? --Rocksanddirt (talk) 06:40, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Apparently, yes. If the AC says Rocksanddirt is a banned from Some page and is banned for 1 year on top of that, or the AC says, "Congrats, Wordbomb! You're unbanned!" the Community with enough clear consensus could simply say, "No," and go otherwise. But the point is that beyond simply electing different arbiters each year, the Community really has to want to flat out override the AC, but can, is my reading of how it works and based on the answers. In short, even the AC and Jimmy have to bow to the system as created and designed, which makes sense--anything here can change with enough correctly done, supported, and widescale pushing. We elected and chose these guys to do this heavy lifting for us because we trusted them when we chose them, in short, and that's their job as the AC. We simply retain the authority in extraordinary circumstances to say No to them, the same as they can say No to us. Nice system of checks and balances. Lawrence § t/e 07:03, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

And before someone asks, if both sides (Community/AC) said No equally forcefully to each other on some insane matter, I'd imagine the push would automatically come to shove in favor of the community side, since the community is the AC and selects them. I can't even guess what level of insanity would require that. Banning User:Jimbo Wales? It would have to be something absurd, so probably not worth dwelling on here. Lawrence § t/e 07:14, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Ok, but....say after this is over, there is a community sanction discussion and two members of the committee participate as regular users/admins and end up against an otherwise broad consensus for some remedy? They usual standard is that would not be consensus for editing restrictions and should be referred to the committee. what then? --Rocksanddirt (talk) 07:18, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Since when did consensus = unanimous? Lawrence § t/e 07:20, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

That's been the usual rule for community bans/restrictions anything that "some admin won't undo". There are cases where folks object, but state that they wouldn't undo an action or wouldn't appeal it to the committee...but if someone does that's all it takes to shoot down community sanctions. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 07:23, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

And if the AC ever were to take that case up again then, and force the equivalent of a Constitutional crisis, it could be amazingly disruptive. No one would benefit, since it ever came down to a consensus shouting match, no one can beat the community, since the community is everything. The AC comes from the community, the community (from all the wikis) elects the Foundation Board, which hires the paid staff who run the servers and business. Betting against the community in any ultimate push/shove is like betting against the house in a casino. The odds mathematically will always go against you in the end, no matter who you are. If you win the local specific fight, you could well lose the next local election for AC seats. Take it up the food chain, you could lose your Board spot(s). Lawrence § t/e 07:28, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Outside of the confines of an arbitration case, with certain very limited exceptions, each of the arbitrators acts as an individual editor, and is entitled to take actions and to hold and voice opinions as an individual editor. Even within a case, we see arbitrators identifying what their own personal practice would be in a given situation, while making it clear that their position is not an "Arbcom" practice.

I think something to keep in mind here is that, in almost all cases, the Arbitration Committee narrows down (or expands) which issues it chooses to address in its decision. That does not preclude the community from deciding to take action on matters that may be raised or identified during the course of an Arbcom case. Indeed, if I recall correctly, the sockpuppet policy underwent considerable editing during the Privatemusings case, and many other policies and issues have been reviewed and modified based on arbcom cases. Risker (talk) 07:30, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't disagree at all, and I hope that what comes out of this evenings discussion is a clear indication to the committee that the proposed decision is no where near complete, and that some of the proposals may have unintended consequences. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 07:35, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, sorry for belaboring the point. Figured it'd be best to just get those cards on the table before everyone started whitewashing chant mantras and drama. Lawrence § t/e 06:43, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Well if that door remains open then that would settle a lot of concerns. Whether the community takes action or not, at least the decision wouldn't have the problems that appeared initially. In this particular case more than usual, there appears to be a credible potential for formal offsite continuation. The world at large understands very little about how Misplaced Pages works; it's conceivable that an official Committee decision on some aspects of this case might be construed among non-Wikipedians as having more than its intended weight and conclusiveness. And (this is conjecture) such concerns might have something to do with the difficulties in achieving consensus? Durova 06:56, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

See my last proposed principle (#8). Newyorkbrad (talk) 12:29, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Regarding Principle 4.1 by FT2

What would it take in this case to make such a showing of 'likelyhood of sockpupppetry'? I really think we need to state clearly what it would have taken to conclude sockpuppetry in this case. Maybe NYB and FT2 can't help us with that as they might feel that it does exist. Could someone who doesn't feel that it does, please say what it would take to show it? --Rocksanddirt (talk) 06:22, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm also perplexed by this. Principle 4.1 would not say that there is definitive proof, but that it is reasonable to treat these two accounts as one person based on the evidence and based on how Misplaced Pages has acted in the past. It's hard to see how this principle (which is consistent with what I hoped to see) would be passed without any finding. Mackan79 (talk) 15:31, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Community ban

I call for a community ban for the principals in this two year war and all accounts identified now or in the future as "significantly suggestive whether or not confirmed" sockpuppets or meat puppets of the two principals who whether they are or they are not the suggested real life persons act enough like it so that the best interest of NPOV at Misplaced Pages is best served by these bans due to two years of apparent COI editing on a wide variety of articles related to their employment and friends and associates.Letter published by the Securities and Exchange Commision of the United States WAS 4.250 (talk) 11:18, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

That was a comment letter. You send it in, they print it. It has as much standing as a post in a message board.--Mantanmoreland (talk) 13:33, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

So what? The letter presents some verifiable claims that are relevant to this case. Further it illustrates that this case is about real world financial conflicts of interest, including editing Misplaced Pages to make friends look better. A short list of articles not to be edited will not prevent a known lying COI sockpuppeter from corrupting Misplaced Pages articles with spin for his friends. WAS 4.250 (talk) 14:15, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I skimmed it and see just a lot of incoherent gibberish about Ron Paul and attacks on Patrick Byrne. What has that got to do with anything?--Mantanmoreland (talk) 14:54, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, more precisely, if it is a comment letter even loosely related to something they are working on, they'll publish it. Unsolicited comments on other issues won't be published. See the FAQ answer at http://www.sec.gov/answers/commentletters.htm. But MM is right here; it evidences no more than the opinion of whomever wrote it, and published because it is submitted as a comment to the SEC's consideration of amendments to regulation SHO. Like our arbitrators, the SEC commissioners are expected to read every single comment letter on a topic before reaching a decision. Whether they do, or focus on ones that their staff select to highlight, is unknown to me. GRBerry 13:58, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Just link Varkala and his blog. Every other post is about Overstock.com. Support community ban. Cool Hand Luke 14:03, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

This is not the appropriate venue for the community ban discussion, at least in my opinion. GRBerry 14:21, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Please move the discussion to WP:AN. Please comment there. Jehochman 14:51, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

This section is a comment and an appeal and information on the proposed decision and is meant to influence Arbcom so they can achieve their desired objective of putting this behind us, which will not happen unless the two warring sides are banned. This is exactly the right place for this comment and appeal and information on the proposed decision. It is on a page designed for exactly that. That its mere form or style or content has similarities to the form or style or content of sections that sometimes appear on other pages does not mean it should be moved to one of those other pages. WAS 4.250 (talk) 15:16, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

The problem is, it's really _not_ appropriate to run a community ban discussion concurrently with an arbcom case (though if arbcom wishes to suspend the case to allow such a discussion to run its course, as it has in the past for RFCs, that would be reasonable). —Random832 15:30, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

A present for the committee

Y'all seem to have misplaced yours, so here's a spare. 213.239.220.202 (talk) 14:15, 29 February 2008 (UTC) (This IP is an open proxy, so you'll probably want to block it.)

Thanks, Anonymous Coward. This open proxy has been blocked. Jehochman 14:49, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

sigh, an unhelpful comment. (though a nice pic). --Rocksanddirt (talk) 15:08, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Since the images were redacted: in case any casual readers want to know what's going on, the pictures the anon posted were (presumably, based on the filenames - I only looked at the diff) of a spine and balls. —Random832 15:27, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that's what they were. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:29, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Disruptive by the IP, yes, but unfortunately also to-the-point. The current proposed decision is simply abhorrent. You might as well have dismissed the case and saved us all a lot of time. I'm utterly disappointed with the proposals so far. Dorftrottel (warn) 17:42, February 29, 2008

confounding issues

I, for one, would like to know as much about these "confounding issues" as the committee can tell us. The basic nature of the issues would be a good place to start - secret evidence in their favor? legal threats? Even if you can't tell us what specifically is going on, what can you tell us? If I decide to start sockpuppeting tomorrow, how can I make sure I get "a more cautious and conservative standard" when I'm found out? —Random832 15:24, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

To clarify - that last question was rhetorical and you would (of course) be fools to answer it, but I submit that you're fools to have multiple standards in the first place. It invites gaming the system. —Random832 15:55, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

That's one thing I was wondering as well. Is this arbitration and proposed decision a de facto endorsement of double standards, for some users in regards to certain forms of allegations? Are others seeing it that way? I'd imagine there should be a rigid standard that all such standards are applied the same for everyone. Lawrence § t/e 16:12, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Reluctance by the committee to make an official ruling in this case does not (I think) prevent the community from making similar rulings in the future as it has in the past. Thatcher 16:17, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I know... the above section covered that. I was just speaking to Random's statements that the Proposed Decision as written may be seen by some as an endorsement of double standards, or that some users operate under a modified set of rules than everyone else. Lawrence § t/e 16:25, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Without going into details (and no, I have no special information from Arbcom on this point), there may be some extenuating circumstances in particular cases that require a more flexible manner of addressing issues. When it comes to sockpuppetry, there are always shades of grey. While many in the community may see this case as primarily being a "sockpuppetry" one, based on the currently proposed decision, I believe that Arbcom has taken a very different view of the case. That view does not necessarily preclude the community pursuing certain issues without the direct intervention of Arbcom. It's not the first time this has happened; a close reading of any number of Arbcom cases has resulted in final decisions quite different from that anticipated at the time of the request for arbitration. Risker (talk) 16:22, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Without a doubt. I was just speaking to Random's apparent thoughts that the appearance of an endorsement of double standards or different standards for different people is a potentially Bad Thing. Lawrence § t/e 16:25, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

The decision fails the community

WIth all due respect, this decision fails the community.

1. It does not identify the parties in the area of dispute or the off-wiki battle
2. It does not clearly state that Mantanmoreland has a conflict of interest in the area of dispute
3. It does not ban Mantanmoreland from editing the area of dispute.

Since he has stated all along that he is not Gary Weiss, then he can continue to edit the articles involved under the principle of Remedy #1. Apparently the Arbcom is leaving it up to some administrator involve in Arbitration enforcement to issue a topic ban somewhere down the road. (Unless they are hoping Mantanmoreland will suddenly take a quiet wikibreak.)

Now, I do not believe it is necessary to state as a fact that MM=SH=GW. It is sufficient to say for purposes of this case that they may be, and they whether they are or are not, they have acted in a manner that constitutes a conflict of interest. Nor do I think it is necessary to pillory any admins for being overzealous in protecting Mantanmoreland from harassment, since it seems to me that there is a significant difference between having one abusive sockpuppeteer (who also runs an attack web site) saying "look at the elephant in the room" and having a dozen experienced editors and admins conduct an exhaustive review of the elephant problem (and remember that this "room" that allegedly contains an elephant is not so much a quiet living room as Burbon Street on Mardi Gras, so spotting the elephant does require a bit of skill and patience).

I have made some alternate proposals. Thatcher 17:29, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

. . . based upon editing misconduct consisting of what? What tendentious editing? What edit warring? And are you seriously suggesting that nobody editing these articles has reflected a point of view for or against any of the principals in these off-wiki controversies? --Mantanmoreland (talk) 17:44, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

The editorial process can usually deal with people who have conflicts of interest if those conflicts are disclosed. I think Wordbomb has made some interesting points about naked short selling and the DTCC on the Site of Gnashing of Teeth (or whatever that nickname was). I would like to have confidence that Misplaced Pages's article on naked short selling is neutral and reflects a broad range of sources and opinion and covers both reasons why naked short selling might be good and reasons why it might be bad. I do not have confidence that you are the editor who can do that. Arbcom basically asks in this proposed decision for the article to be cleaned up by unbiased experts. You present yourself as such an expert but I do not believe that is the case, and I believe Arbcom should explicitly state as much. Thatcher 17:49, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Whoa! When did I ever "present myself as such an expert?" When did I ever tell people not to contribute to naked short selling, on or off wiki? Has anyone other than Bagley and Piperdown ever done so? When have I? For that matter, when has anyone done so who disagrees with Bagley or Byrne and their stock market conspiracy theories? Despite all the "gnashing of teeth" about the naked shorting articles, very few people actually go there and contribute to it. But if you feel that there has been a problem with my editing, you should point out the diffs. Funny how in the some days this has been pending, with many thousands of hits on the Misplaced Pages Review section devoted to this case, nobody has came up with diffs of misconduct on my part.--Mantanmoreland (talk) 17:55, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I invite your attention to the information that Thatcher just posted. This seems to be a case of "Never Defend, Always Attack". Your constant "Overstock/Bagley" refrain is overdone, tiresome and not useful. If you see a vast conspiracy behind the number of editors/checkusers who have good-faith concerns, well, then I feel sorry for you. SirFozzie (talk) 18:10, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the majority of the evidence centers around an attempt to prove identity, something I have always felt was tangential to the case. (Who you are is less important than what you have done.) But there is some evidence on that issue. Thatcher 18:15, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Thatcher has posted his diffs, which consist of two year old edits that are, with one exception (a blog link that shouldn't have been added) perfectly valid and within policy. I've replied in the workshop. I'll have to check, but I think the material I added to those articles two years ago remains in them. That is the distinguishing characteristic of this arbitration, which is that people have trouble coming up with bad edits, edit warring, and the stuff the arbcom usually deals with I would suppose. As for Overstock/Bagley, that is why we are here. If it weren't for their campaign, which consists of character assassination and not of criticism of the articles on their merits, we wouldn't be having this discussion.--Mantanmoreland (talk) 18:29, 29 February 2008 (UTC)