Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 20:38, 4 March 2008

Homeopathy received a peer review by Misplaced Pages editors, which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.

The contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to complementary and alternative medicine, which has been designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Homeopathy article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find medical sources: Source guidelines · PubMed · Cochrane · DOAJ · Gale · OpenMD · ScienceDirect · Springer · Trip · Wiley · TWL

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65Auto-archiving period: 3 days

	Homeopathy has been listed as one of the Natural sciences good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones Date Process Result September 14, 2006 Good article nominee Not listed September 27, 2007 Good article nominee Listed October 8, 2007 Good article reassessment Delisted October 13, 2007 Good article reassessment Delisted October 19, 2007 Peer review Reviewed October 25, 2007 Good article nominee Listed Current status: Good article

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Skepticism High‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Skepticism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of science, pseudoscience, pseudohistory and skepticism related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SkepticismWikipedia:WikiProject SkepticismTemplate:WikiProject SkepticismSkepticism High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. Homeopathy (inactive) This article is within the scope of WikiProject Homeopathy, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.HomeopathyWikipedia:WikiProject HomeopathyTemplate:WikiProject HomeopathyHomeopathy Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Alternative medicine This article is within the scope of WikiProject Alternative medicine, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Alternative medicine related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Alternative medicineWikipedia:WikiProject Alternative medicineTemplate:WikiProject Alternative medicineAlternative medicine Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Medicine Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Medicine, which recommends that medicine-related articles follow the Manual of Style for medicine-related articles and that biomedical information in any article use high-quality medical sources. Please visit the project page for details or ask questions at Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Medicine.MedicineWikipedia:WikiProject MedicineTemplate:WikiProject Medicinemedicine Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Archives

Index 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60 61, 62, 63, 64, 65

This page has archives. Sections older than 3 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III.

Random idea

Why don't we remove the references section to the top of the page? That should save us the headache of having to constantly move it down (or it keeping us from using the + tab to add sections). We'll just have to be careful not to archive it. --Infophile 00:48, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

i tried that it really screwd up the whole article i almost had to recommend the article for deleting and trying to recreate the article from memory. i guess we just have to live iwth it on the bottom — Preceding unsigned comment added by Smith Jones (talk • contribs)

I tried putting it above but it did not include the four cites that are on the page. Try putting a test reference right at the bottom of the page, you'll see it does not show up in the reference list. It appears that only references above the {{reflist}} template get included. If you know anyway around that problem, then I agree, put it at the top. David D. (Talk) 22:47, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

nah waxt eof time. i already tried to put it on the top 6 ytimes and each occasion the talk page was completely annihilated. if i try ot put it on the top again i might not beable to fix it and the only thing we will have to do is rereate this whole talk page + archives from memory, which sounds extremelyl yidfficult. !!!~ Smith Jones (talk) 00:20, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

It was only annihilated because you missed out a "|}" to close the hide/show box. Note, putting it above does not annihilate the page. The problem is the references only get listed if they are above the {{reflist}} template. David D. (Talk) 03:13, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

sure pin the whole mess on me. i tried to fix it and i was able to see where i went wrong., thanks a lot. Smith Jones (talk) 01:39, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Proposed fork Criticism of homeopathy

Per discussion occurring at WT:NPOV it is proposed that an article fork named Criticism of homeopathy be created. This article then can be a neutral presentation of homeopathy with a summary of and a link to the criticism. The criticism article should likewise summarize this one and link back. —Whig (talk) 10:35, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

No, no, and double no. The scientific legitimacy of a subject is of paramount importance and should never be shuffled off into a fork. Jefffire (talk) 10:43, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

The summary should prominently make clear the issues, but the fuller and detailed arguments can be described at length in the fork, both for and against. —Whig (talk) 10:53, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I still disagree. This looks exactly like a PoV fork. Jefffire (talk) 11:14, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

It seems an excellent way forward. The Tutor (talk) 11:32, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

No this would constitute a POV fork, have a look at Misplaced Pages:Criticism for how criticism should be incorporated into the article. Addhoc (talk) 11:46, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I have pointed this out maybe a few dozen times. This is what Wikinfo does, not Misplaced Pages. At Misplaced Pages we have something called WP:NPOV. Ever hear of it? You might want to learn about it.--Filll (talk) 14:16, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Not a good idea in most cases. If the criticism is so large that overwhelms the article, what can be considered is a WP:SUMMARY, that is different than a POV fork. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:59, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

iagree with the dissnters. whenever we create an article like this, we end up with a overhwelmingly pro-homeopathy main article and an overwehelmingly anti-homeopathy criticism article, which would essentially have hte same problems as this article plus the fact that its an illegal content fork. Smith Jones (talk) 15:59, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

It might be better to make a new fork of a pro-homeopathy article and then rename the present one anti-homeopathy! ;-) maybe I am kidding who knows? Peter morrell 16:28, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I've been involved in a couple article disputes before when the idea was raised to create a separate article for criticism. In some cases it has worked, and other it has not. I don't believe it would work well with Homeopathy. Homeopathy, as a fringe belief, has ideas that cannot be presented adequately without including inline criticizing text. I would also caution any supporter of this idea who thinks it would give them room to present homeopathy without criticism. Any statement of how homeopathy works would still be roundly surrounded by the science. The history of how homeopathy developed would have to be put in context of pre-atomic physics which has since then thoroughly discarded those ideas, etc, etc. Criticism articles can work when the criticism is the minority or fringe position - and when the controversy is notable in and of itself. In this case, that would be backwards. Homeopathy is the fringe topic. It can't be presented without the criticism. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

apart from the bald assertions that homeopathy is "fringe", i aree with everything schmucky the cat just said. criticizng text is key to the article and divesting it here and placing it over elsewehraea like in another article would be a disservice to readers. the science must remain in order to have a fair and adequate portrayal of homeopathy, its tenets, and criticisms thereof. if we split it off we could end up wiht an abomination like "criticisms of sylvia browne where the criticism is more or less forked off from the main article due to lenght alone. Smith Jones (talk) 18:21, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

The Brown article had problems with BLP: we are talking about a practice, not a person. Homeopathy won't get its feelings hurt, or sue. If you would please READ WP:FORK you will see that forks per se are only discouraged, and NOT "illegal" and even what's discouraged is trying to do to it to hide a controversy, instead of to flesh it out and enlighten it when it's unavoidable, since the very topic is a POV. Please see Criticism of Mormonism and Anti-Mormonism for examples. Then, very carefully read this, from WP:Fork:

Articles whose subject is a POV: Different articles can be legitimately created on subjects which themselves represent points of view, as long as the title clearly indicates what its subject is, the point-of-view subject is presented neutrally, and each article cross-references articles on other appropriate points of view. Thus Evolution and Creationism, Capitalism and Communism, Biblical literalism and Biblical criticism, etc., all represent legitimate article subjects. As noted above, "Criticism of" type articles should generally start as sections of the main article and be spun off by agreement among the editors.

.

Now, what is it that you don't understand about this? Do you infer from it that there something wrong and illegal about doing what the guide suggests doing? SBHarris 20:05, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Several editors from both sides have indicated they don't consider this idea to be worth pursuing. In my honest opinion, this proposal hasn't much chance of being accepted. Addhoc (talk) 20:38, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, with all due respect, that's too bad. If we have Criticism of the Catholic Church and Anti-Catholicism articles and a Scientific investigation of chiropractic article, we can certainly have a Criticism of homeopathy article, and meantime let the homeopaths have relatively free rein to present their own beliefs in the Homeopathy article (not too much hype), along with a short summary of the criticism or negative scientific findings, and link to the criticism/science article as a "main" article for the criticism. That's the way Misplaced Pages works. Example: we have a pedophilia article which is pretty neutral, but it contains equal lengh small summary subsections on Pro-pedophile activism and Anti-pedophile activism, and each references the appropriate longer sub-article, of the same name. Get it?

I might add that if you really want to do this symmetrically, you can have a Homeopathy article which presents mostly history and principles, as taught. Then a Scientific investigation of homeopathy article (to mirror the chiropractic one), with main subarticles to Scientific results favoring homeopathy and another on Negative scientific results unfavorable to homeopathy. Summarize and link all the way. Eventually you'll get to a place where everybody can write down all their reference-able stuff, without too much hassle from anybody else. Okay? SBHarris 23:14, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Considering that the "NPOV" treatment of child molestors on Misplaced Pages is one of its biggest disgraces and one of the things most commonly used to point out why Misplaced Pages is a joke, I would not use articles on that topic as the model for how things should be done in the future.

There is an endless amount of factual information about Catholicism to present, aside from criticism of the Catholic Church. That may be a good example of a split. But chiropractors, like homeopaths, have no business presenting their beliefs as true or trying to fill up a lengthy article with a topic devoid of substance. Any article that is written from a verifiable, true, neutral perspective that is inline with FRINGE, WEIGHT, and other stated policies, about chiropractors, or about homeopaths, will contain mostly criticism, since that is what the reliable sources have to offer about those topics, and that is why they are significant. Homeopathy is significant as a consumer fraud and as a leading form of pseudoscience, because millions of people are hoodwinked into participating in it each year. It is not significant as "medicine" or as a "field" because it is no such thing, and any information presenting it as such is de facto unreliable. Thus, the article should largely be about homeopathy as a social phenomenon, explaining why people believe in bunkum and what the legal status of medical fraud is. Randy Blackamoor (talk) 23:19, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

<outdent> Apologies for the length of this. As for medical "fraud," chiropractors and acupuncturists and homeopaths have just as much business presenting their ideas as "true" as your local religion does, when it sells you a ticket to Heaven of some kind, in exchange for your "support" (which generally means your money). Medical fraud is simply a subset of all consumer fraud, and we don't even apply "consumer fraud" to religion or philosophical beliefs. Why? For pragmatic reasons. Trying to do so resulted historically in things like the Hundred Years War, not because the principles weren't the same! The FTC and FDA don't look at religions, not because money doesn't change hands (it does-- see the Scientology wars with the IRS), but because we've just decided not to go there, because they can't win. I don't think you can mount a strictly logical (vs merely pragmatic) argument for why we shouldn't, though, if you really think the state should be involved with questions that science can't fully answer, where people pay money for services that can just as well be classified as "entertainment," such as fortune-telling and astrology and Freudian psychoanalysis. ;)

I'm on the review board for SKEPTIC magazine, and have written for the Skeptical Inquirer. How about you? As for Misplaced Pages, it's not Skeptipedia. Skeptipedia actually exists-- perhaps you were looking for it, and found yourself here by mistake? If you'll look at my own Wiki USER and TALK pages you'll see you're preaching to the converted about homeopathy-- I also think it's nonsense, on par with Feng shui and intercessory prayer. I'm about as thoroughgoing a materialist and rationalist as you're likely to find, but that does not mean that I think the best way to promote rational skepticism in the world is by suppressing presentation of information on nonskeptical beliefs. I'm a libertarian. I don't want the state (see the FDA) deciding what's "fraud"-- partly because these people are nearly as big fools as the quacks.

Anyway, most people in the US, indeed the world, have what I'll call "proto-religious" beliefs-- the idea that they can influence future events by means other than scientific. Never mind prayer-- consider "lucky" actions, and even watch people gyrate after rolling a bowling ball, as though their body movements had any influence over what was going to happen after the release was completed.

Our mission on Misplaced Pages is not to stamp all that out. We couldn't if we tried. Our mission is to write an encyclopedia documenting the human condition and human thinking. Where science is appropriate as a method, we should give the conclusions science has available, and if science is still arguing about something, we need to give both sides.

Where the question hasn't even been admitted to be resolvable with scientific methods (ethics, religious assertions not testable by science, and also assertions with built-in "science experiment filters"), we should leave for philosophical or ethical or religious debate, the various modes these have already established. It's no good stating that any information which leads against our a priori beliefs is "defacto" unreliable-- that simply defines the evidence we're willing to listen to in terms of what we think already (No true Scotsman has been quoted). I don't like that sort of thinking.

In any case, even if we were to agree to scientific "Queensbury rules" at the out-set, Catholicism and traditional Chinese medicine and (to some large extent) psychoanalysis and homeopathy are not even natural scientific pursuits, as you and I understand the term natural science (I'm not sure all homeopaths will ADMIT to this, but it becomes quite clear to me in arguing with them, since they are such masters of ad hoc-ery as never to be subject to the rules of science). Thus, it's no more fair to make an article on homeopathy hew to rules of scientific proof than it is an article about the utility of Catholic indulgences, rosary work or devotional medals of Saint Christopher do so. Religion survives on ad hoc-ery and mystery! That doesn't mean all such articles must contain reference after reference, stating that, according to the scientific method, they're all crap.

Major religions do have entire critical articles. Articles like those on Feng Shui and New age thinking in general have nice locular criticism sections, but they're small and not pervasive. If some are not spun off into subarticles, that is only because the criticism isn't very complete, or else reference to scientific skepticism as a subarticle serves for all. Much criticism of New Age thinking comes from older orthodox religion, in fact, and nobody has written the full Wikis on the Jeremiads of the evangelicals against the hippies. Nor do I want to read them! But I'm not against including them when they come along, so long as sourced, referenced, and summarized. Religion vs. religion is always entertaining (are you a believer?). I merely suggest that it's not the job of Misplaced Pages to be SKEPTIC magazine. That's SKEPTIC magazine's job.

So be inclusionist, and lighten up a bit. I'm sure you believe many things that you couldn't prove with the scientific method. Is it better, for example, to do the kind vs. the expedient/profitable thing, even if you have no chance of getting caught or noticed, either way? Yes, you say? Well, I say. Prove it. SBHarris 04:27, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

"meantime let the homeopaths have relatively free rein to present their own beliefs"

That is exactly what forking the content out does NOT mean. Even if this was a good idea, that isn't the way it is done. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

While we're at it, let's make the "creationism" article say that God created the world 6000 years ago, the "slavery" article say that slavery was good for black Americans, the "Jews" article be nothing but conspiracy theories about Jews controlling the media, and the "9/11 attacks" article be nothing but an allegation that George Bush (and the same Jews) took down the towers. Then, we'll put all the actual information about those things in separate articles called "scientific view of creationism," "criticism of slavery," "responses to Jewish conspiracy theories," and "historical perspective on 9/11 attacks," which will be shorter than the articles about fringe theories, harder to find, present themselves as less legitimate since they are sub-article forks, and used as bludgeons to keep rational, objective information off of the main pages for those topics. That's the kind of Misplaced Pages that the homeopathy people appear to want. Randy Blackamoor (talk) 20:36, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Welcome back Randy. Addhoc (talk) 20:39, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes. It's good to see a rational point of view expressed again. Wanderer57 (talk) 21:57, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Last time I checked we Jews do own the media.  :) Randy, excellent rant!!! I'm quoting it in the future, unless it's copyrighted somewhere.  :) OrangeMarlin 23:38, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

yea i have to agree with Randy's argument here. my main criticism of this idea is that it creates an artificial pressentation of homeopathic science by forking off science-based criticism to a subarticle that people might not initally see. The way its done now is a lot better, and unless someone can come up with a really good reason why hoemoapthy shoul dbe forked off into 4 or 5 subarticles with titles like ] and negative scientific results disfavoring homeoapthy then it should not be done. Smith Jones (talk) 01:15, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

That isn't the proposal, however. Simply creating Criticism of homeopathy does not fork POV in multiple directions, it allows all criticism to be included in an appropriate place which does not prevent the reader from learning about the subject itself in the main article, with appropriate summaries and links to ensure that nobody is confused, and the criticisms then set forth at as much length as needed. —Whig (talk) 06:52, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

It would also lead to legitimate criticisms of homoeopathy being excluded from the main article, which would then not be NPOV. Brunton (talk) 13:16, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

That isn't correct. The main article would necessarily contain a summary of the criticism and a link to the article where it can be set forth at as much length as needed. —Whig (talk) 16:58, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Also, we should not prefix "Criticism" with some label like "Scientific criticism" because organizations which identify themselves as scientific are not necessarily to be regarded by everyone as such. We should try to be conservative about creating more articles, going from one to five at a single time would be a bad idea. If someone wants to suggest an amendment to the proposal that the second article should have a different name or that we really do need a third article for some reason, then that would be a constructive discussion to have. —Whig (talk) 07:06, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

btut you see we have already gone through hudnreds of paragraphs of discussion of this idea and i and a lot of other people on this raticle talk page see no construcitve erason to multilate the article to such an extent that content is being forked around in random directions. for example, the article on scientific criticism can and hsould be easily incorporated into the article. Smith Jones (talk) 15:32, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

You are saying that Homeopathy has been a battleground. Yes, and we're trying to fix that, to create a more peaceful editing environment for not only skeptics and proponents but for the whole of Misplaced Pages. Just because some people think that homeopathy is wrong does not mean it isn't notable. The criticism of homeopathy is also very important and notable and deserves an article and ought not to be hidden away but prominently summarized and linked here. —Whig (talk) 17:11, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Whig has said two revealing things, both of which dictate that the fork should not be created- "This article then can be a neutral presentation of homeopathy". It is not neutral if it only contains material that is predicated on this nonsensical therapy being valid. " it allows all criticism to be included in an appropriate place which does not prevent the reader from learning about the subject itself in the main article" again with the implicit assumption that the therapy has validity and that learning about it need not require learning the counter-arguments. You may say, and I have made this point to Whig previously, that the Aztecs believed that human sacrifice was required to keep the Sun rising and be perfectly NPOV. You may not say, The Sun requires regular human sacrifice to keep rising as was discovered by the Aztecs and having established that 'fact' then head off into a description of which were found to be the best sacrificial knives. Homeopathy as a whole is nonsense, but it is also fatally internally fractured. Next, supposing that Whig does not believe that homeopathic 'nosodes' are valid homeopathy we'll have to fork off to another article about nosodes away from the homeopathy article to avoid the inconvenience of addressing the contradictions they pose in the 'true homeopathy' article. What about 'constitutional therapies'? Same applies. On the other hand, if you can cope with including those contradictory approaches to homeopathy in one article then you should cope with mentioning the ways in which homeopathy contradicts everything we know about medicine, biology chemistry and physics. It is a pity for the homeopaths that they cannot deal with the vast counterweight that any reasonable balancing material presents, but that is their problem. It is perfectly NPOV to say that homeopathy doesn't work. It doesn't. Fundamentally, the NPOV view is that homeopathy doesn't work. Just like the NPOV view is that the Earth rotates around the Sun not vice versa. It really is not controversial. The problem is that some people insist for various reasons that homeopathy is dealt with as if it still has a chance of being valid, will not contemplate the alternative and think that everyone is 'out to get them'. Being in the wrong may lead to paranoia but it doesn't lead to not being in the wrong and no matter how you tilt the pitch homeopathy is just plain wrong and silly to boot. Whig will point out that Misplaced Pages does not concern itself with what is True. However, when something happens to be False it is funny how the evidence just stacks up against it when any attempt is made to balance these things dispassionately. It could even be that its advocates would learn from this that they have placed their faith in a fiction. As I have already said, I have no problem presenting material about homeopathy any more than I have a problem presenting material about how the Aztecs thought the Sun required sacrifice to keep rising. They are interesting and valid topics for people to enquire about. The problem arises when the believers in such false ideas insist that their material is presented as if it was true and try to suppress the counter-evidence. OffTheFence (talk) 16:23, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

OffTheFence does not agree with our policies of NPOV, NOR and V. It would not be constructive to debate over the question of whether his POV is more "true" than someone else's. There is no intention of possibility of suppressing "the counter-evidence" by creating an article for the purpose of setting forward criticism at as much length as needed, keeping a prominent summary here. —Whig (talk) 17:04, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

There's that royal plural personal pronoun creeping in again. I have patiently explained to you and illustrated where Misplaced Pages's rules fail badly when it comes to sifting scientific research in a field dominated by poor quality research published in poor quality journals where the "peers" doing the reviewing are tendentious and/or weak. I have shown you why and how that research is of poor quality, which is particularly ironic given that the papers we have discussed were being presented as being of the highest standards. You have been unable to rebut that criticism, but have fallen back on various attempts to use Misplaced Pages's rules to engineer objectively bad information into its Articles. Having said that, I have become somewhat encouraged by the support given by other editors for applying constraints such as WP:WEIGHT. But where pro-homeopathy editors continually try to exploit these weaknesses the task of trying to create balance is tiresomely sisyphean. The saddest thing is that the obvious lesson to draw from the need to fall back on these tactics to protect homeopathy is that homeopathy does not deserve this protection. The problem only arises because its supportive evidence is of the weakest and most biased kind, based almost entirely, need I really remind you, on user testimonials such as the ones you have cited on your own behalf. OffTheFence (talk) 08:01, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

This is not the place to debate changing or ignoring Misplaced Pages's core policies. —Whig (talk) 08:18, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Wrong again.--Filll (talk) 17:08, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

This is not constructive, Filll. If you have a specific thing that you wish to disagree with, then make your point more clearly. —Whig (talk) 17:13, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I would strongly oppose this idea, since it would be a POV fork. Tim Vickers (talk) 17:32, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

The suggestion was made to create a fork by User:Sbharris on the WT:NPOV thread which I strongly encourage you to read. It is not a POV fork if we do it properly. In particular, when I said that similar proposals had been called POV forks in the past, he replied: "Yes, but that was wrong. If you read WP:FORK carefully, you'll see it does NOT forbid forking in this way, so long as no information is lost, and summaries of each fork article are left in the other. Sometimes this is the only way out which pleases everybody. Politically, it's good. SBHarris 20:40, 29 February 2008 (UTC)" —Whig (talk) 17:34, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

As the Misplaced Pages:Content forking policy states "The generally accepted policy is that all facts and major Points of View on a certain subject should be treated in one article." Tim Vickers (talk) 17:49, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Which is why Criticism of homeopathy should contain all criticism and rebuttals with reliable sources, not just those of one POV. This article should also make proper reference to the criticism. —Whig (talk) 18:28, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Wow, that is precious. You want us to take all criticism off of the "homeopathy" page, but then you want "criticism of homeopathy" to contain "rebuttals" to the criticism! It looks like all you want to do is have TWO pages full of farcical pro-homeopathy nonsense! I for one am shocked that a homeopathy proponent would manipulate the Misplaced Pages process, scheme towards a long-term goal, and hide his true motives, on this talk page. Shocked! Randy Blackamoor (talk) 21:18, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

No, that is a misrepresentation. Per the WP:Content forking editing guideline, There is no consensus whether a "Criticism of .... " article is always a POV fork. At least the "Criticism of ... " article should contain rebuttals if available, and the original article should contain a summary of the "Criticism of ... " article. —Whig (talk) 05:26, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

A blatant POV fork like that won't work and will fail to meet the requirements of WP:NPOV. The article is of a size where splitting sections in careful accordance with WP:SUMMARY is in order, based on existing sections. #Prevalence and legal trends is one section which could reasonably be summarised and split off as a sub article. Further options can be considered. .. dave souza, talk 18:43, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

It is not a "blatant POV fork." "A point of view (POV) fork is a content fork deliberately created to avoid neutral point of view guidelines." I have no such intention, nor did Sbharris in proposing a fork be created. —Whig (talk) 18:48, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Well it certainly looks that way. Criticism of a subject is a point of view, and you're openly pushing the idea of shifting full coverage of "the scientific point of view" elsewhere, while keeping promotion of homeopathy, or perhaps "the pseudoscientific point of view", in the main article. As Tim says, that's completely against the core values of NPOV. .. dave souza, talk 18:59, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

As someone who's been lurking here for a little while, I'll go on record as opposing spitting. Regardless of how carefully we try to do it, the split articles will inevitably devolve into POV forks. Yilloslime (t) 19:07, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

This is being pushed by one or two editors who have shown their POV very clearly. Can we move on, since there is a greater chance of finding one molecule in a homeopathy solution than creating a POV fork. If it's created, the list of individuals who will speedy delete is so long, that we'd have a bet on who would be first. OrangeMarlin 19:12, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

You can't compare something like this with a religion article - while all our religion articles have serious POV problems, they are presented as religions, not as facts. And even there, it isn't acceptable to segregate criticism off into daughter articles. Homeopathy is an obvious fantasy, based on imaginary concepts. We aren't going to segregate into an article called "Criticisms of Harry Potter" the claims that Harry Potter isn't real. We admit it up front: "Harry Potter is a series of seven fantasy novels..." We owe it to our readers to do the same here. Guettarda (talk) 22:05, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Do you believe that low potency homeopathy is equally fantastic? —Whig (talk) 01:35, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

It's all make-believe - does it matter whether some make-believe is harder to believe than other? I don't think that distinction matters past the age of 9 or 10, not that I am an expert in child development or anything. Guettarda (talk) 05:47, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

So a 1x potency is make-believe? —Whig (talk) 06:02, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

It's not homeopathy and would probably be poisonousAcleron (talk) 12:00, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

So Calms Forté, a commonly available over the counter sleep aid which is labeled as Homeopathic, and contains a number of 1x remedies, is either poisonous or not homeopathy? —Whig (talk) 17:45, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

The original meaning of the word "homeopathy" was anything that used the "method of similars". Therefore, many standard medical practices like prescribing ritalin and adderall for ADHD, heparin for IBD, hypnotics to prevent falls among the elderly, and other treatments are really "homeopathy" by the original definition given by Hahnemann. However, in current usage, the word "homeopathy" has come to be associated with tiny doses, and in particular submolecular doses. Regular medicine gives things in tiny doses, and 1X is not tiny; neither is 2X or 3X, and all are concentrations you might find in regular medicine, but regular medicine does not administer submolecular doses (higher "potentency" than 24X). So, the one big distinction between regular medicine and homeopathic medicine is the use of submolecular doses.--Filll (talk) 13:41, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

That is fairly stated, Filll. But not all homeopaths use submolecular doses, and since homeopathy is used without calling it homeopathy whenever "stimulants" are given for ADHD, etc., we should make the criticism more specific. —Whig (talk) 18:30, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

So if you are frantic to create a fork, and you claim there is not enough material on "evidence for homeopathy", why not leave the current article as it is, and we will create a fork Evidence for the efficacy of homeopathy. And you can describe at length all the positive studies that find evidence for homeopathy. And of course, for NPOV, we will have to also quote all the contrary evidence as well. How about that for a fork?--Filll (talk) 13:47, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

That's fine. Evidence pro and con should be included. The controversy of H research could be detailed in such a Fork. H article can contain a summary of that page. Anthon01 (talk) 16:42, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Anthon01. Such an article should include sourced criticism of that evidence. It would be a good fork to create. —Whig (talk) 18:25, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

The current page is a summary and stays as it is.--Filll (talk) 18:20, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Whig, drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass. --Infophile 17:33, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

How about we just move this page to "criticism of science" or something

Let's take the pro-fork POV to its logical extreme and delete all pages on homeopathy, chiropractic, ear candling, vaccines causing autism, herbalism, Dr. Phil, faith healing, Ayurvedic medicine, and other quack medical practices off of Misplaced Pages. We'll just have one page labeled "criticism of legitimate medical practice" or "criticism of science" or "criticism of Enlightenment culture," or perhaps "criticism of allowing people with disease to continue living," that can briefly summarize all of these things in strict accordance with some ridiculous bean-counting of their number of followers. Does that sound fair? Randy Blackamoor (talk) 21:21, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Such pages already more or less exist. Making an umbrella doesn't mean the subarticles cease to be. There is a Complementary and alternative medicine which references complementary medicine and alternative medicine, and along the way mentions integrative medicine and various other subarticles on herbalism, meditation, chiropractic, yoga, body work and nutritional stuff like naturopathy. What's the problem? SBHarris 00:49, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

The thing you are you missing is this violates WP principles and guidelines.--Filll (talk) 01:10, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Are you saying that the articles Sbharris listed violate WP principles or what Randy Blackamoor unseriously proposed? —Whig (talk) 01:28, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Do you only ask off-topic questions? Guettarda (talk) 05:48, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

It is topical, as I am trying to understand what Filll was saying violates WP principles. —Whig (talk) 06:00, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Comparison with German and French versions

Since supposedly homeopathy is so much more popular in France and Germany, and in particular German Misplaced Pages is much more strict and follows the Misplaced Pages rules much more closely than other Wikipedias, what do their homeopathy articles look like? I did some reading today. And guess what? They look pretty much like ours. I would be glad to translate their LEADs for anyone who wanted to compare. But both of them describe homeopathy as highly controversial. The German version calls it pseudoscience and "fantasy medicine". Both state that dilutions are carried on past the point of detection, etc. And these articles are in languages from countries that supposedly celebrate homeopathy and where it is a mainstream treatment, etc! It would be interesting to translate the Hindi version of homeopathy as well.

By the way, the references are quite light in the French and German versions compared to the English version; we have much better documentation.--Filll (talk) 16:32, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

My German is not very good, but from the number of talk archive pages at de:Diskussion:Homöopathie I'd say the editors of the German version are fighting just as much as the editors of this article; it looks like there are claims of NPOV problems over there. The French version is much more peaceful, and the lead of the French article is only 1 sentence long! --Akhilleus (talk) 16:53, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Well the discussion is not near as nasty at the German version as at ours, and there are not near as many posts. They are voting on assorted things I notice, but it is not as contentious as this. The French LEAD is quite short; but the French article also has an introductory section which is where they really start to describe homeopathy. I will provide translations if anyone is interested.--Filll (talk) 16:57, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I just translated the Dutch version as well. Same thing; all three: Dutch, German and French are just like our version pretty much.--Filll (talk) 17:51, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Are you working off an automated translation for these, or your own knowledge? I'm just thinking that I read French reasonably well, so I might be able to get a better picture of that article than just from Google translations or whatever. --Infophile 19:29, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I speak a little French and I know a tiny amount of German. I used some automated tools to help. If you want to help, I will give you some links to look at. --Filll (talk) 19:33, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Looking through the French article, I have to say that it comes down pretty hard on homeopathy, even early on. The first couple sections of the article are rough summaries (and more detailed versions of them exist further on). The first of these is a simple description of what homeopathy is and its basic tenets. The second goes into how well it works, and it comes out pretty clearly in saying that it doesn't. There's only a brief mention there that homeopaths still believe it works from anecdotal experience. No studies are mentioned as supporting that homeopathy works. --Infophile 19:50, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

The German version calls it pseudoscience and "fantasy medicine". Don't know where you got that. The last sentence of the lead is "Aus diesen und weiteren Gründen wird die Homöopathie häufig als Paramedizin oder Pseudowissenschaft bezeichnet." For these reasons and more homeopathy is often called paramedicine or pseudoscience. In light of the discussions we have had here, the distinction between "Homeopathy is pseudoscience" and "Homeopathy is often called pseudoscience" is significant. --Art Carlson (talk) 19:58, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Well...whether it works or not, it's pseudoscience, isn't it? It's a child's caricature of science, which includes fantasies like "water memory". What else would you call a field based on imaginary principles? Guettarda (talk) 21:51, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Distinguish critique

One way out of this fork idea would be to specify in the article where the critique is found. Example below of the current lead. In other words distinguish between the two 'voices' in the article? what do you think?

Lead

Homeopathy (also homœopathy or homoeopathy; from the Greek ὅμοιος, hómoios, "similar" + πάθος, páthos, "suffering" or "disease") is a form of alternative medicine first defined by Samuel Hahnemann in the 18th century. Homeopathic practitioners contend that an ill person can be treated using a substance that can produce, in a healthy person, symptoms similar to those of the illness. According to homeopaths, serial dilution, with shaking between each dilution, removes the toxic effects of the remedy while the qualities of the substance are retained by the diluent (water, sugar, or alcohol). The end product is often so diluted that materially it is indistinguishable from pure water, sugar or alcohol. Practitioners select treatments according to a patient consultation that explores the physical and psychological state of the patient, both of which are considered important to selecting the remedy.

Critique

Claims for efficacy of homeopathic treatment beyond the placebo effect are unsupported by scientific and clinical studies. The ideas behind homeopathy are scientifically implausible and "diametrically opposed to modern pharmaceutical knowledge". The lack of convincing scientific evidence supporting its efficacy, and its contradiction of basic scientific principles, have caused homeopathy to be regarded as pseudoscience, or, in the words of a 1998 medical review, as "placebo therapy at best and quackery at worst".

Usage

Current usage around the world varies from two percent of people in Britain and the United States using homeopathy in any one year, to 15 percent in India, where homeopathy is now considered part of Indian traditional medicine. Homeopathic remedies are generally considered safe, with rare exceptions; however, homeopaths have been criticised for putting patients at risk by advising them to avoid conventional medicine, such as vaccinations, anti-malarial drugs and antibiotics. In many countries, the laws that govern regulation and testing of conventional drugs often do not apply to homeopathic remedies.

this could be done right through the entire article wherever crit appears not just in the lead. Advantage? any person reading it can then identify the crit clearly and read what they want. any comments? thanks Peter morrell 17:33, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

In my opinion, the cleanest and most efficient way to organize the criticism of homeopathy is to put it in a criticism section, and not have it strewn throughout the article. Arion 3x3 (talk) 05:29, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, that is counter to WP policy. And in any case, you are going to get a chunk of it in the LEAD anyway.--Filll (talk) 13:11, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

See Template:Criticism-section for an explanation of how segregation into a criticism section is a bad idea. As Peter notes, the article at present does include much of the "criticism" in identifiable paragraphs, but the important thing is to relate all views to the particular aspect that they discuss, and not separate different views away so that one view appears to be unchallenged when it is in contention. . . dave souza, talk 13:26, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

RFC

Template:RFCsci

Summary of dispute: Broad disagreement over how much critical material the article should contain.

I'm opening this RFC in hopes that we can get some outside input on this matter. So far, it's just really been the same parties making the same arguments at different places. I invite all participants in this dispute to make a comment here explaining their position. Note that this is an article RFC, so let's try to keep it limited to the content and not stray too far into commenting on the behavior of editors. We can handle that via other processes if necessary.

Thank you in advance to anyone who takes the time to come here and offer their opinion.

(Comment that was previously here has been moved down to the next section.) --Infophile 20:34, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Brief comments by involved editors

Uninvolved Respondents to RfC please comment below.

My view: Homeopathy presents itself as a form of medicine and should be appropriately judged as such. In this perspective, it is in a distinct minority (see WP:FRINGE). The perspective of mainstream medicine and science should be given predominant weight in describing the efficacy of homeopathy. Claims of homeopaths may be presented, but they may not be represent as factual. When these claims are specifically refuted by mainstream medicine, it is appropriate to state such. --Infophile 20:44, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I generally agree with this comment. Perhaps someone with an opposing POV could comment briefly here so respondents can get an idea of both sides of the argument? Thanks. Anthon01 (talk) 18:10, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

This is IMO, not clearly worded enough. First, it should be written in a neutral not your POV. I suggested we take some time to clearly present it neutrally and word it to focus on what you/we want answered. You might consider postponing it for now. Anthon01 (talk) 23:06, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

What are you referring to here? Randy Blackamoor (talk) 23:10, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

The wording of the RfC. Anthon01 (talk) 23:18, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

This is how article RFCs are generally done. I made a short, neutral summary for the RFC board ("Broad disagreement over how much critical material the article should contain."), and here I present my view of the matter. I made it quite clear that others were encouraged to present their own views. I figured that would be a lot more feasible than trying to agree on something. You know how hard that has proven to be. --Infophile 17:26, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

I believe the current weight to exposition and critical analysis is about right, give or take, and was the result of consensus previously of skeptics and homeopathy supporters. The translation of the French, German and Dutch LEADs show that all of these articles have a similar tone to our current article, if not more critical. This is relevant because these languages are associated with places where Homeopathy is supposedly far more popular and accepted than it is in the US and the UK. Also, homeopathy is definitely a FRINGE treatment by almost any measure:

• the homeopathy share of world drug market is 0.3%
• money spent per person on medical items in the US in 2004 is 5267$
• money spent per person in the US on all herbals including homeopathy is 54$
• there were 315 professional homeopaths in the US in 1993, but counting lay homeopaths (unlicensed), maybe over 1000 ( there were only 50-100 homeopaths in the US in the early 70s ) compared with 884,000 regular physicians in the US in 2006

Even in India, where about 15-20% of the medical professionals are homeopaths, homeopathy is 3rd or 4th behind regular medicine and ayurvedic medicine.--Filll (talk) 21:06, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

As has been discussed on WT:NPOV, Homeopathy is used by hundreds of millions of people and is an accepted part of the medical systems in some countries, therefore not fringe, though clearly a minority. —Whig (talk) 20:50, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

As something that purports to be a medical treatment, homeopathy should be judged according to scientists working in the medical field, not by the numbers of laymen who are interested in it ("professionals working in the medical field" who are not MDs are also laymen). "Misplaced Pages is not a democracy." Randy Blackamoor (talk) 21:24, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Randy Blackamoor is correct: homeopathy purports to be a medical treatment and is judged as to whether it is a valid medical treatment by scientists and others working in the medical field. Large numbers of lay people who accept it have no bearing on whether it is accepted by the scientific community as valid medicine. Period. Odd nature (talk) 21:52, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Millions of people think Bigfoot exists. Science doesn't work on voting or popularity. This article states the whole history of the Homeopathy from the POV of its promoters and marketers. Science, being based on experimentation, falsifiability, analysis, testing, and finally, publication in a peer reviewed journal, states that homeopathy is not medicine. Case closed. OrangeMarlin 22:18, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Not all scientists and doctors are quite so negative. Homeopathy has been available on the National Health Service in the UK since the Health Service first began in 1948. This is from the NHS Direct website (crown copyright) 'Complementary therapy is gradually becoming more widely available on the NHS. At the moment, the kind of complementary treatment you can access depends somewhat on where you live in England. However, complementary therapies are being introduced in more healthcare settings, including hospitals, GP surgeries and community clinics. Ask your GP if you're not sure what's available in your area. There are five NHS homeopathic hospitals in the UK. They are located in Bristol, Glasgow, Liverpool, London and Tunbridge Wells, Kent.' The Tutor (talk) 22:17, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

So? Yes, nearly every scientific article on Homeopathy shows it's nothing. And utilizing the pathetic UK medical system as an example is sad. OrangeMarlin 22:19, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Of course not all doctors think it is nonsense. You think the 315 professional homeopaths in the US think it is nonsense? Good heavens. But they are only 0.036% of the number of allopathic physicians, so you need to put these things in context.--Filll (talk) 22:23, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Marlin, careful how you flounce, sometimes I can see your petticoat. The Tutor (talk) 22:31, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Not sure what a flounce is, and a petticoat? Well, whatever. Just that any medical system that, in an effort to provide placebo effects, utilizes homeopathic hospitals, ought to spend its money on searching for said Bigfoot. Oh never mind, you Brits spend money searching for the Loch Ness Monster. Sorry. OrangeMarlin 23:20, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

The way this RfC is worded fits perfectly with my view. Homeopathy was developed to be--and is currently studied, promoted, and dispensed as--a treatment for medical maladies. While some regions have more practiononers and consumers than others, and some medical/science organizations give homeopathy varying levels of creedence, the overall practice of homeopathy is demonstrably subordinate to modern evidence-based medicine by any objective metric. Furthermore, the modality relies upon theories seemingly in direct contradiction to current physical, chemical, and phamacological knowledge. Therefore, any discussion of its medical efficacy or mechanism of action is only appropriately written through the guidance of WP:FRINGE and WP:UNDUE. — Scientizzle 19:03, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Respondents to RfC

• My position has already been stated: "The perspective of mainstream medicine and science should be given predominant weight in describing the efficacy of homeopathy." Homeopathy must be judged by the standards of medical science - the only alternative is that it be presented as a cultural phenomenon of historical interest, or a belief system without basis in science. Sheffield Steel_stalk 17:56, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
• As a bystander, and observing the recent turmoil leading to the current status, I would think editors should take note of Intelligent Design. Just as controversial yet still it is presented factually as non-scientific and entirely unsupported by scientific evidence. The same is true for homeopathy. Although interested and sympathetic to the underlying idea I do think we should not ignore the the fact that WP has to present things accurately. AFAIK medical literature, nor any other scientific discipline, has supported the efficacy of this form of treatment. The article grosso modo appears to adhere to presenting what it stands for, while simultaneously recognising its unscientific nature. We should be careful and heed WP:FRINGE and WP:UNDUE.217.166.60.19 (talk) 18:55, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

POV tag?

I see that some editors –including me- argue that the current article is biased and inaccurate. ( anthon01, DanaUllman, arion3x3,whig. Is this correct ? ) Should the administrators consider to tag it with the appropriate label? I think that since the article is under probation the tag could be added by the administrators only - not the editors to avoid an edit war. I m not sure if this is a good idea. I m researching. Comments. ?--Area69 (talk) 23:21, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

See the discussion above. Most do not think it has a POV problem, or a bias problem. And our article is no more biased than the German, French or Dutch versions of the same article. I humbly suggest that trying to put POV tags and templates on the article might lead to sanctions for someone trying to do this. Do not do it. Instead, try to learn and understand WP policy and why the article is written the way it is, and what NPOV is and why this article conforms to NPOV. If you do not like the way it is written, perhaps a wiki that does not have NPOV as an organizing principle might be more to your liking. I can suggest several for you if you want.--Filll (talk) 23:31, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I might be wrong - just asking the editors --Area69 (talk) 23:41, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Just a word to the wise. Do not do it.--Filll (talk) 23:45, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Hey Area69: Your sense of things IS accurate. Many of us do believe that the article, as it stands now, is over-weighted to skepticism. Please know (!) that I have no problem with skeptism and with accurate and notable critiques of homeopathy. However, there are many features of this article that do warrant a POV tag. Heck, only in the past 2 weeks was there any links to leading homeopathic organizations. There are other important changes that need to be made for accuracy of an encyclopedia nature. And yeah...when people tell me not to say something or not to look somewhere, it is usually a good idea to say something and look there. DanaUllman 05:05, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Over-weighted to skepticism? That's meant to be funny, right? NPOV does not mean "credulously accepting nonsense". Two thirds of the article uncritically presents fantasy as if it were true. The article still have a good way to go, because it underweights reality. Guettarda (talk) 05:56, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

I do think the POV tag is warranted, the article is more concerned with debunking homeopathy than describing it, makes broad and false claims implying no studies have shown efficacy, ignores commonly used low potency homeopathic formulations in favor of dismissing the use of high potencies, and that's just looking at the LEAD. —Whig (talk) 05:57, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

And here we go again with bringing up the same topics repeatedly, intentionally misreading NPOV policy, and arguing for credulous support of claptrap. Randy Blackamoor (talk) 06:25, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Excuse me, "intentionally misreading NPOV policy"? You seem to be assuming bad faith. —Whig (talk) 06:39, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm doing what now? Randy Blackamoor (talk) 06:46, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

You are accusing me of "intentionally misreading NPOV policy." That is not assuming good faith. —Whig (talk) 06:55, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

<RI>Good one Whig. I haven't laughed that hard in a month. OrangeMarlin 07:09, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

If you have something to say, then say it or stop disrupting. This is not a chat room. —Whig (talk) 07:11, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

The responses from Orangemarlin and Randy Blackmoor verify the problem that exists in this article, therefore, proving that this article deserves a POV tag. DanaUllman 19:16, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

I understand that you think the presence of clear-thinking people who respect science is a "problem." However, neither reality nor stated Misplaced Pages policy agrees with you. Randy Blackamoor (talk) 19:51, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

I think it is fair to conclude that within the medical community communis opinio is that this treatment is not different from using placebo. Nomen Nescio 19:59, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

If this article is POV, then so is the German version and the French version and the Dutch version. I suspect every version in every other language is also POV. So if you want to start some sort of crusade, it has to be done in every language. And I notice that the World Book Encyclopedia article on homeopathy is similar to this one, and is about 30% critical. And so is the Funk and Wagnall's Encyclopedia article on homeopathy, which is also about 30% critical. So you better start lobbying World Book and Funk And Wagnall's. The problem is, the readers deserve to read all about homeopathy, warts and all. They do not deserve to be on the receiving end of some uncritical sales pitch for some FRINGE belief.--Filll (talk) 20:03, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Attempts to use the talk page as a forum for general discussion, and constant rehashing of generalities

Please remember that in accordance with stated Misplaced Pages policies, the talk page is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. Furthermore, specific queries such as "should the article have a POV tag," "should the article be forked," and so on are not a license to drop your canned statements about how great homeopathy is into the talk page for the 100th time. Constantly arguing the same discredited points (whether about homeopathy itself, or your erroneous interpretation of NPOV), because you hope to get some abuse of the process adopted during some window of time when the reasonable people are banned or not paying attention, is not acting in good faith, and thus good faith will not be assumed on the part of those who do it. Constantly arguing the same points even when they ARE rebutted, and acting as if the rebuttals were never posted, is the definition of "stonewalling" and is likewise not acting in good faith. Randy Blackamoor (talk) 19:51, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

I humbly suggest that this form of spamming the page with discredited points, over and over, is not acting in good faith, and not working towards actually writing an encyclopedia article. Since this article is under probation, there should be no problem with admins just blocking people who continue to engage in this sort of activity, against consensus and against Misplaced Pages policies.--Filll (talk) 20:05, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

I would like an uninvolved admin to look at these accusations of bad faith by Randy Blackamoor and Filll and consider whether they are constructive. —Whig (talk) 20:38, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Notes & references

This should be the last section. If you notice a new section below, please "fix it" by moving this section back to the bottom of the page. Thankyou

• Old requests for peer review
• Misplaced Pages good articles
• Natural sciences good articles
• All unassessed articles
• GA-Class Skepticism articles
• High-importance Skepticism articles
• WikiProject Skepticism articles
• WikiProject templates with unknown parameters
• GA-Class Alternative medicine articles
• GA-Class medicine articles
• Mid-importance medicine articles
• All WikiProject Medicine pages