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==Biased==
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This article is of low quality because it is biased. The writer of this article presumes to speak for "modern science" when in fact, physics Nobel Prize winner Brian Josephson has spoken in defense of Benveniste's work. One would think that a Nobel Prize winner would be considered a member of "modern science".

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A scientific hypothesis doesn't have to be '''shown to be wrong''' in order to be rejected or ignored - it is rejected if it '''can't be shown to be right''' - which is what has happened with water memory (so far, at least: new evidence could change that, of course).

This is a common misunderstanding among proponents of fringe theories: They think that once something has been proposed, it has to be accepted unless it is disproved. ("No one has ever found an error!" is a common cry amongst the true believers.) The way science works is that hypotheses can safely be ignored ''until'' they are shown to be right (or at least close enough that it's worth the effort to bridge the gap).

Which is why I reverted the last edit. - ] 00:44, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

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I'm not entirely familiar with Misplaced Pages, but the name suggests a neutral presentation of information. There is such a strong tone of bias in this article, through wording, omission, and an overall leaning which seems plain to someone (like myself) who walked into the page knowing nothing about the history contained within. Now...it seems to me that there are more standards by which to report a factual history than the accepted scientific ones. There are a huge variety of growing perspectives out there and you simply can't choose the standard scientific one and claim to not be biased. Essentially, you are being flagged as biased, because no self-respecting reader of this article would seek homeopathic treatment or consider becoming a homeopath. As the second most used system of medicine in the world it seems like homeopathy must have more going on with it than what you bring to us..no?

---- <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 19:32, 14 March 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Disagree with the links attached to the article ==
I am not arguing that it's right or wrong. I am saying that it has not been proven to be right or wrong, therefore it should not just be considered "Bad science" or "Scientific misconduct" as the attached links suggest.

Which is why I am going to remove these links than. ]

:The fact that the scientific community at large considers the issue of water memory to be associated with ] / ] and ] is all that is necessary for the links to be included in the article. If you dissent, that is fine; but you cannot over-rule mainstream scientific consensus. I encourage you to add a (]) dissenting section to the article, outlining support for water memory, rather than simply cutting out the bits you disagree with. Best wishes :) -- ] 09:15, Mar 13, 2005 (UTC)

::P.S. Remember that in any article, "see also" links are not necessarily directly associated with the given topic, nor do they constitute a "judgement" of the topic. Rather, they have ''some'' relevant association. I'm sure everyone interested in water memory would also be interested in the concepts of ] and ], irrespective of their position on the existence of water memory. Fair enough? -- ] 09:21, Mar 13, 2005 (UTC)

:Can you provide references that "scientific community at large considers the issue of water memory to be associated with ] / ] / ]"? As I understand community has only rejected this theory. There are two experiments that I am aware of showing no proof of water memory. But there is no evidence known to me that affiliates of this theory are insincere, therefore why "misconduct"? There is no proof that such memory does not / can not exist. If any -- references please. ]

::I don't want to get into an endless debate on the evidence for and against homeopathy (I could, but it's not necessary). All I want to do is demonstrate the rationale for the links as they exist in the "see also" section.
::*Start by reading ] and its ]. That should demonstrate to you that the topic is at least controversial, and certainly a good many intelligent people do not believe in water memory. These pages also list plenty of evidence that casts doubt on the idea of water memory and the motives of some proponents.
::*Read Jacques Benveniste's obituary in '']'', the world's most prestigious scientific journal ( (Quote: "widely disbelieved by scientists").
::*The above-mentioned Benveniste was sacked from INSERM after his infamous experiments were shown to be poorly designed and erroneous. Sloppy procedure, with improper data recording, inexplicable artifacts and repeated failures of replication suggest ], ] and/or ]. Many other scientific magazines said as much in various editorials (I imagine I could find precise issue and page numbers, but I hope that won't be necessary).
::These references should convince you that '''''irrespective of whether water memory actually exists''''', the linked pages have some relevance to the article. For instance, let's say a hard-core supporter of Benveniste visits this page. He might appreciate the "see also" links which you object to, as they tell him about these ideas that have been associated, rightly or wrongly, with Benveniste and water memory in general. The mere fact that these pages are linked in "see also" does not constitute a definitive verdict on water memory. They belong.

::Finally, I'm interested why you object to these three terms (], ], ]) but don't seem to mind ] and ]. Can you tell me why you don't want to remove ''these'' terms? (If you accept that water memory constitutes pseudoscience, you must tacitly admit it is also bad science!) -- ] 11:51, Mar 13, 2005 (UTC)

:::These different ], ], ], ] and ], together with ] definitions need to be linked in one article. The effect of referring to them as a list of different links in this way could be considered intimidatory. Please remove them: they are all self-referential in any case - that is, pursuing one leads to the others. Alternatively, add examples where the scientific community has first ridiculed and then had to accept advances in knowledge and understanding.
:::I am not making a judgment on the issue of ] ] 05:41, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
::::I suggest, as well as above, also adding, e.g ] and others as necessary, to preserve ] ] 09:10, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
::::In retrospect I agree that the list of links was "intimidatory." I have made some provisional changes in the interests of NPOV. If anyone desires more changes, please go ahead and make them, and we will discuss it here if any more disagreements emerge. -- ] <sup>]]</sup> 03:47, July 24, 2005 (UTC)

I only have an objection to the link for "Meridian" at the bottom of this article. I am fine with the -science links, and a link to homeopathy or to Masaru Emoto because they seem self-evidently relevant. However, singling out one facet of one non-Western scientific tradition seems quite definitively NPOV. Lumping in the much larger and deeper controversy about Chinese Medicine with something that is relatively minor comes off as vindictive. The fact is there is far more research surrounding the various aspects of Chinese Medicine than there is about "water memory." Though I will profess here for the sake of disclosure, my personal bias in favor of Chinese Medicine, I believe my objection is sound based on the rules of Misplaced Pages. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (]) 16:17, 13 December 2007 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:UnsignedIP --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Polywater ==

In what way could polywater be thought of as similar to water memory? This statement seems to be suspect. Polywater was, as the name implies, believed to be a polymerized form of water. I am unaware of any "memory effect" involved, nor do the properties have anything in common. ] 12:15, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

: Good point: aside from involving water and being a scientific-sounding belief that was debunked, it has no connection at all. How did that stay in so long? I'm removing it. - ] 16:38, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

== "pseudoscience" label ==

I have removed the statement that water memory is pseudoscience. Though the idea may very well be wrong, that does not mean it is pseudoscientific. The ] label only applies to ideas claiming to be science but which cannot be checked by the scientific method. Water memory, however, can and has been checked (with mixed results of course). A wrong or controversial theory is not the same as a pseudoscientific theory. ] 08:46, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

:That's not true. As the page here on the wiki states: "''is any body of alleged knowledge, methodology, belief, or practice that claims to be scientific but does not follow the scientific method.''". The difference is an important one; to be pseudoscience the ''belief'' has to be non-scientific. There is no suggestion that it cannot be tested scientifically, just that the people involved don't do so. ] 12:58, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

::Ah, well, "pseudoscience" is pejorative anyway, might as well call it "crap" or "BS" or "nonsense" ...well, at least IMHO...:) There's a whole discussion going on about using the term at: ]. I'm following it to see what they decide. ] <small> ] </small> 22:59, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

::Yes, my paraphrase was wrong. Regardless, my point stands that "water memory" is not some project or endeavour masquerading as science, just an idea that is probably wrong. However, homepathy does seem to qualify for the title. ] 04:44, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

:::I agree - speaking as something who agrees that water memory is almost certainly wrong. "Pseudoscience" is for quack machines sold on late-night infomercials that babble incoherently about "quantum" or "energy" without content. - ] 12:45, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Well I disagree. I think that water memory is indeed an example of pseudoscience. It's basically a non-real effect that has no basis in any known science, yet talks about itself in technobable terms and claims to be the scientific basis for homeopathy. It doesn't exist on it's own, its a synonym. Unless you separate the two concepts the distinction becomes difficult to see. Don't get me wrong, if water memory pre-existed homeopathy and was co-opted, that would ''potentially'' be a counterargument for automatically labeling it, but that's not the case. So then if you believe homeopathy to be pseudoscience, how does one not automatically assume the same here? 12:59, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
:I think your judgements are unfair. Firstly, the idea has indeed been treated as a physical theory separately from homeopathy. Louis Rey's experiments gave some support to the theory and were published in a respected journal. Additional evidence for altered properties of extremely diluted solutions can be found in the articles of Elia et al published in the Journal of Molecular Liquids, Journal of Thermal Analysis and Calorimetry, Annals of the NY Academy of Science, etc. Just because these findings contradict current understanding of the physical processes does not mean we can already label it as pseudoscience before it has been scientifically tested. True, proponents of homeopathy may pretend that water memory has already been proven, but that makes only those claims pseudoscience. For now, we should reserve final judgement until more tests are done. ] 22:52, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

== Ennis email incorrectly attributed ==

Okay, first, someone hadhere (before I came along) mention of Ennis' objection to how ''Horizon'' performed the experiment. I then moved her e-mail reference to a 'ref' tag. Here is the wiki code prior to my removal of it:
* <nowiki>However, Ennis claimed that Horizon did not faithfully reproduce her experiment.<ref name="Ennis email">{{cite web | url=http://www.homeopathic.com/articles/by_category.jsp?id=37 | title = Email from Madeleine Ennis detailing differences between the BBC Horizon program's experiment and her own | date = 2003-12-9 | accessdate = 2007-08-08 | quote= }}</ref>
</nowiki>
I then saw this, from , authored by Dana Ullman (a homeopathic advocate who was interviewed by ABC's 20/20 and who first suggested the Ennis experiment as a reasonable experiment to replicate; however, both the BBC and ABC created a separate experiment that had never before been conducted and suffered from serious design flaws:
:: ''ABC News' 20/20 program with their reporter John Stossel is presently scheduled to air a segment on homeopathy on Friday January 30th. This report will include a seemingly legitimate laboratory experiment that seeks to prove or disprove the effects of homeopathic medicines.''
::The experiment that 20/20 produced was supposed to be a replication of an experiment that had been conducted numerous times in the past and had been published in scientific journals. This study used extremely small doses of histamine to reduce the number of basophils, a type of white blood cell that increases in numbers during allergy symptoms. This study was even conducted successfully several times by Dr. Madeleine Ennis who is a professor of biochemistry and a former skeptic of homeopathy.''
And further down
:: ''Turnbull used a chemical, Ammonium chloride, in this experiment which is widely known to kill basophils, making the study impossible to any homeopathic medicine or any drug to have any effects.''
So I'm confident it ''this'' experiment that Ennis objected to, not the one that was performed in front of Randi.

And to drive one final point, Ennis' experiments were not the same as Benveniste's.
:: ''Despite my reservations against the science of homoeopathy," says Ennis, "the results compel me to suspend my disbelief and to start searching for a rational explanation for our findings." She is at pains to point out that the pan-European team have not reproduced Benveniste's findings nor attempted to do so.'' {{ cite news | work = The Guardian | location = London | title = Science: Thanks for the memory: Experiments have backed what was once a scientific 'heresy' | author = Lionel Milgrom | date = March 15, 2001 }} as quoted from
:--] 19:21, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

After having read the e-mail in question, I am confident she ''was'' referring to the Horizon experiment. In particular there were several mentions of the primary Horizon experimenter's name. Either I am misreading what you are trying to say above, or, well, I don't know at that point. Anyway the quotes seemed more than on-topic, and I have restored them in the newly laid-out article. ] 21:37, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

== Excellent article ==

I have been watching the development of this article over the years and it is improving and becoming more informative all the time. I have now traced the basis of the anonymous comment at the head of the discussion page about the Nobel Prize Winner and added an external link and the comment from Prof Josephson in the body of the article. I do not yet know how to do a citation rather than an external link and I'm also not entirely convinced how valuable that it is, anyway.] 12:25, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

:It still reads like a bad news report, giving too much credence to water memory. Something lost on most journalist, and apparently Wikipedians, and indeed anyone who is not scientifically literate, is that balanced discussion does not need to occur when the issue itself is imbalanced. Why is no mention made about the inverse relation between the quality of studies done and the amount of effect homeopathic concoctions have? The fact of the matter is that there is not a single shred of decent evidence for this concept that defies the basic laws of physics. Calling this a good article is a bit of a stretch. ] 02:35, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
::Is there a ] or a similar source that backs up what you are saying? ]&nbsp;<small>(])</small> 04:00, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
==Revision==
I hope I've beaten this into shape to everyone's satisfaction. I have added a largish section on the original test series and the whole ''Nature'' controversy that resulted. I have also gathered the follow-up experiments into groups, with full cites on each one. From what I can see of the cites in this article, and others that I found as a result of tracking these ones down from REF to cite format, it appears that every "success" experiment has a corresponding direct "non-success" one that followed it. There appear to be three such experimental runs, the original ones from ''Nature'', the telephone/internet ones that followed in the 90's, and finally the Ennis/Horizon test runs. I think it's safe to leave it at that. ] 20:31, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
:Your rewrite was a lively and interesting read. A couple of points for what changes I think should be done now: 1) more sources and inline citations should be provided for the details of the story. Is it all taken from the Time magazine article? 2) There have been a few more experiments in the past four years or so. These should be added. Note that these suggestions are not directed at you in particular, since you've already done quite a lot to improve it. Thanks and good job! ]&nbsp;<small>(])</small> 18:31, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

::Actually ''most'' (but not all) of the material in the upper section I got from the two Nature articles, which are available online. The Time article was just a few pithy quotes and some history. I ''highly'' recommend reading the second of the two Nature articles BTW, because it's extremely succinct in terms of summing up everything that went on in that first rush, both from Maddox and Benvenist. As to the second point, if you have any more cites, please drop a note here and I'll try to work them in too (even an url or article title is fine, I can look these up on medline quick like a bunny). I'd really like every "positive" to have a "failed" if one exists, and vice versa; that way the reader can simply look up the cites and decide for themselves. ] 18:42, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
:::Chaplin's site has a great deal on the scientific aspect. It explains in what ways water can and cannot have memory. There are a lot of very useful papers cited in it, with recent review of the matter having been published just now. ]&nbsp;<small>(])</small> 19:13, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

::: I very much approve of the edits. I would still caution against too much balance in presentation. The vast majority of positive studies for pseudoscientific claims do tend to suffer from subtle to not so subtle methodological errors, or simply misuse of statistics. The layperson is not prepared to find these flaws, and so it is the duty of the editors to make them, if any, clear. ] 19:49, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

::::Oh I agree. And on that note I welcome everyone to read the second of the FASEB links, . There's an excellent section on how they controlled the possibility of he-said-she-said problems, clearly improving on the system Maddox used (ie, nothing). ] 20:13, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

== Intro statement ==

Is it just me, or is the intro statement somewhat misleading? When I think "homeopathy" I think "like cures like". The whole small-doses thing is sort of secondary, it's certainly a part of classic homeopathy, but by no means its ''definition''. There's nothing in the original homeopathic concept that demands water memory, at least not that I'm aware of (not being an expert by any means). Would it not be more accurate to state that the concept of water memory has been "adopted" by modern homeopathy? Or perhaps "latched onto"?

Another terminology issue is a portion that is now removed that claimed water memory was a pseudoscience (see this page, above). I would agree that it's definitely ''not'' an example of pseudoscience. However it does seem to fit every definition of ], a different issue. I found that by typing "pathological science water memory" into Google the first hit returns an article on just that topic from Columbia U, . The definition in bold is pretty much exactly what Maddox stated in the Nature article. Is this worth mentioning, or is it too unbalancing?

I'm tempted to make both of these changes, the later being cited makes it worth mentioning, but I'd like to hear your comments first.

] 17:54, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
:Water memory wasn't just latched on to by homeopaths, it was invented in order to explain homeopathy. However, it is true that water memory is now often studied independently of it. I have no opinion on the latter change for now. ]&nbsp;<small>(])</small> 18:57, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
::Well the way you describe it here ''is'' a definition of pseudoscience. But given that I don't have any direct quotes saying this, and everything hates the word no matter how suitable it might be, I'll just leave that one alone! ] 12:23, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

The statement in the lead "However, while some studies, including Benveniste's, have claimed such an effect, double-blind repetitions of the experiments involved have failed to reproduce the results, and the concept is not accepted by the scientific community." seems to indicate that the original studies were not double-blinded. The original paper (actually E. Davenas, F. Beauvais, J. Amara, M. Oberbaum, B. Robinzon, A. Miadonna, A. Tedeschi, B. Pomeranz, P. Fortner, P. Belon, J. Sainte-Laudy, P. Poltevin and J. Benveniste, Human basophil degranulation triggered by very dilute antiserum against IgE, Nature 333 (1988) 816-818, not as given in ref 3) states they used "blind double-coded procedures involving six laboratories from four countries;". I suggest that the term 'double-blinded' be removed or that it be inserted before 'studies'. ] (]) 10:07, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

== Historical references ==

Please insert some historical references regarding to who, when and where originated the concept. Please also be aware that there are too many references to magazines, perhaps the article should have more solid references (see ]) ] 16:45, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
:I agree with the concern, but I have moved the tag down because it's so big. I put it in the refs section. ] 18:48, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
::I relocated the tag to an area still visible on arrival but not at the top and reduced the size of the tag. ]] 19:24, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
:::I inserted the places where historicasl references or citations could be placed, also reduced the tag <font face="georgia">]]</font> 20:18, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

== Disputed Science tag ==

Water memory isn't a scientific theory. How is this disputed "science"? It's a disputed hunch or guess. No more. Can this box be removed? ] (]) 08:40, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
: Water memory is one of the better known examples of pseudoscience, hence the pseudoscience infobox. Why the caption of the infobox says "disputed science" - see ] --] (]) 15:42, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
:: there are studies which show some positive results. --] (]) 19:39, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

==Ennis email==

Is there a source for Ennis' complaints other than from Dana Ullman in a private email? Ullman is not a credible source ] (]) 22:07, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
:Dear 88, I realize that you wrote this back in December, but just in case you still have this point of view, why am I not a credible source? In the meantime, professor Martin Chaplin is certainly a credible scientist. He has reviewed the evidence, and he fully agrees with me. Also, please simply review the protocol, developed by Wayne Turnbull of Guys Hospital, that the "tv experiments" used: By the way, Turnbull has no history of conducting or publishing research on basophils. He is a medical technologist. ] ] <sup>]</sup> 22:46, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
:: Your website is not a credible source, as it fails RS and V as a source for anything that isn't directly about you. Even then it's pushing RS and BLP in many cases. The protocol was reviewed by independent scientists and found to be good. Ennis has not publicly supported your statements, and even if she did her views are those of one scientist. Misplaced Pages does not add hearsay to articles, especially not scientific ones, and your "Ennis email" is a hearsay response to hearsay allegations. I also dispute your claim that Martin Chaplin's website is a RS; the views expressed there are certainly not generally accepted --] (]) 07:19, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I have been informed by Dr88 that he has been confusing me with Lionel Milgrom. ] (]) 20:23, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

:: I only confused you with Lionel Migrom on my talk page entry, not here. The above is my opinion of your water memory and homeopathy website, which was added before you became an editor here. I stand by my opinion of your website as not a reliable source (it lacks scientific credibility, especially in it's editorialising). How about we stop this discussion here, as we clearly disagree about the value of your website. It clearly fails WP:RS. I have amended my comment above to try to appease you. What advice would you like? --] (]) 20:59, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I understand that pretty well all websites are not believed to be RS (although I try to make mine NPOV and it contains very many cited RS). I am very unsure concerning your evidence that 'the views expressed there are certainly not generally accepted'; certainly I have not received any such negative views at my website (I have a guestbook for comments and none have been deleted) and my 'homeopathy' page has been there since July 2000 and is well visited. As these 'views' may well concern any edits discussed for this page, it would be useful to know of your concerns now. ] (]) 22:36, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

== ] ==

I added a see also link, because water does exhibit ] (i.e., memory) under some demonstrable circumstances. This was reverted, so I would welcome discussion. &mdash;] (''']''') 10:02, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

== Claim ==

As stated: "Pure water retains memory of particles once dissolved in it and thus can elicit similar biochemical responses in living organisms to what the original particles would have done."

Is this claim an accurate paraphrase of the theory?

{{cquote|Such strongly critical or downright sarcastic or ironic stances do not appear entirely justified: the concept of the "memory of water" is no more than ''a metaphor denoting the hypothesis whereby the physicochemical properties of water can be modified by a solute and remain so for a certain period of time even in the absence of the solute itself''. If this were true, biology and medicine would undergo not a revolution, but certainly a significant increase in knowledge and in the related applications. It is not a matter here of postulating an "entity" (memory) which may reside in the water, but of studying the physicochemical properties of water itself. In this sense, talking about memory is not so very different from talking about temperature, dielectric constants, viscosity, and other properties.
An example may serve to clarify the concept here: if we take a little water and put it in the freezer, after a certain period of time it will freeze. On removing the water from the freezer, it will be observed that the block of ice, though now exposed to room temperature, will remain a block of ice for some time. Thus, there exists in water a property which enables it to "remember" for a certain amount of time that it has been kept in the freezer. For those who find this example self-evident, we can give another: if we take a tape coated with ferric hydroxide and subject it, as it is running, to a series of differences in potential in precise succession, changes in charge occur on the magnetic substrate; the tape will remember those changes for hundreds of years. It is not the memory of water, in this case, but the memory of iron, which consists in a ''particular form'' that the magnetic substrate assumes on the tape.|0|0|Paolo Bellavite, M.D. and Andrea Signorini, M.D.|The Emerging Science of Homeopathy: Complexity, Biodynamics, and Nanopharmacology, 2002, pp.68-69}} &mdash;] (''']''') 10:53, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

: Just like Benard cells that you've mentioned, the examples brought up by these guys have nothing to do whatsoever with the alleged phenomenon of water memory as described in its original Nature article. They attempt to use a common defense for discredited postulates - calling it "a metaphor" and broadening its definition to include many unrelated existing physical effects. This said, their book is a published and often-cited reference, and although I would not call it reliable in terms of presenting fact (I've just read what's available of it on books.google.com), it certainly seems reliable in terms of presenting modern homeopathy advocates' views. --] (]) 14:04, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Everything in this ] has a memory. The question is: does it last long enough, and in a form that is of use to us? Clearly in certain metals it does, or we would not be writing here. The same holds for many other substances, both organic and anorganic. Now, we know that water molecules can exist in various patterns, so it seems a substance worthy of investigation. ] (]) 16:36, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

{{cquote|The concept of the memory of water revolves around whether the properties of such aqueous solutions change with time and/or processing and/or previous history. There are two aspects this problem. Can any memory of water effect be evidenced?, and is there satisfactory explanation for the appearance of memory in water? Clearly the first element should be sufficient. If there is evidence that the history of a sample of water affects its properties, then the ‘memory of water’ concept is proven without the need for a rationale for its action. However, it would seem that many scientists require an answer to the second part as well because the concept that water may possess a memory effect is perceived as so unlikely that simple proof that it happens is insufficient for them. In other areas of science experimental evidence is easily accepted where people ‘believe’ it to be true without a known rationale for its mechanism. An example is gravity. We believe it due to numerous observations but do not know how it exists. There is no requirement that the explanation for the memory of water is the correct explanation only that it must ‘seem’ reasonable. Of course, if it is also correct, that is a bonus!

There are several ways water can be shown to have a memory. As a simple example, human taste is quite capable of telling the difference between two glasses of water, processed in different ways (eg one fresh and one left undrunk for several days), where present analytical methods fail. There is a change, of course, but such a change would never be noticed by computer simulations on pure H2O. Vybíral and Voráček have shown that water changes its properties with time and its previous history.13 There is also a well-known ‘memory’ effect concerning the formation of clathrate hydrates from aqueous solutions whereby previously frozen clathrates within the solution, when subsequently melted, can predispose later to a more rapid clathrate formation.14 These examples may be explained, for example, by the presence of nanobubbles, extended chain silicates or induced clathrate initiators,15 respectively. Once an explanation is accepted, of course, the ‘memory of water’ seems no puzzle at all.|0|0|Martin F. Chaplin, The Memory of Water: an overview|Homeopathy: Volume 96, Issue 3, July 2007, Pages 143-150}} () &mdash;] (''']''') 23:52, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
:Right, so, in other words, it's proven true because this fellow says it is. Lovely circular logic, there. ] <sup>]</sup> 07:11, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

== not supportted (sic) ==

The lead already states the level of support science has for the concept. Besides, the edit is terrible grammar and spelling. Really unnecessary and comes across as a tendentious negative coloring, when the article and lead already very well says that the concept is not supported by science. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 13:00, 29 January 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:I've had a go - It wasn't entirely clear what it was, why it was invoked, what the mainstream view was, and what evidence there was for it. Realise that ] and ] require us to take a bit of care to say that minority scientific views are in the minority; but this will probably do. ] <sup>]</sup> 14:37, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

::Water Memory is not entirely a homeopathic concept. It is mentioned in other (fringe) literature as well, so the focus on homeopathy is unwarranted. I will try to edit it a bit more to my liking. Since it is already framed as homeopathy it doesn't need further explanation imo. The majority view, that the current science is inconclusive is enough. --] (]) 15:58, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
:::Weel, irt's originally from homeopathy, I believe, and mainly there. Basically, I wanted a who-whay-where-when-why-how lead, and so added in what seemed missing. ] <sup>]</sup> 17:17, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

::::I mostly see the term bandied about by homeopathy skeptics. On the other hand, water does have memory under some conditions by some definition, as ] demonstrate quite clearly. &mdash;] (''']''') 10:03, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

== LEAD ==

Who defines what "water memory" is? This seems to be a definition invented by skeptics in order to be debunked. I have read better explanations, see ] above. &mdash;] (''']''') 19:01, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
:Water memory was a concept that beneviste talked a lot about. However if he defined the concept is un-sure. I am likely to believe beneviste was not thinking about homeopathy when he devised the theory, but I don't have his books. He merely used water as a faster transmitter of body signals than the body fluid or chemical signals. --] (]) 08:57, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
::If someone can find a reference to where Beneviste may have defined this term or simply described whatever phenomenon this article is supposed to be about, I think that would be a good starting point. Then we can source criticisms of the theory and try to make this article better. &mdash;] (''']''') 10:00, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

:::The journal ''Homeopathy'', while not generally a reliable source, is an excellent source for saying what homeopaths say about it. I believe there was a recent issue devoted solely to Water memory. ] <sup>]</sup> 10:14, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
::::What about Benjaminbruheim's point, that the original concept may have had nothing to do with homeopathy? We still need to get to the bottom of what we're talking about even if it is also (and relevant to this article) pertinent to homeopathy. We should source criticisms of the theory both positive and negative. But according to Bellavite, it's just a metaphor anyhow. &mdash;] (''']''') 10:27, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
:::::Benjaminbruheim appears to be wrong: See {{doi|10.1016/j.homp.2005.02.004}}. ] <sup>]</sup> 12:31, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

(unindent) The LEAD has been edited, but there is still a problem with how "water memory" is being defined. ''Water memory is a controversial concept which holds that water is capable of retaining a "memory" of particles once dissolved in it'' makes no mention of succussion, and if we are talking about anything to do with homeopathy omission of that step is a problem. I don't think we can just define water memory to be a straw man, we need to use the definition provided by a V RS. &mdash;] (''']''') 19:19, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

: Who said anything about it being a straw man? I can't recall offhand whether they used succussion or not, but if water memory existed without it then it would be a possible method for homeopathy (although succussion would probably "wipe" the memory), so the omission isn't really a problem unless you claim it disproves homeopathy, which the article doesn't --] (])
:: ''I'' said it's a straw man. Anyhow, without succussion it has nothing whatsoever to do with homeopathy. &mdash;] (''']''') 00:53, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
:::: Homeopaths, at the time, and the supporters of the water memory theory disagree with you, and it was a very important point for the scientists and the notability of the water memory concept. Also, see my reply below (and reread my reply above). There is no straw man here. --] (]) 07:15, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

:::For unknown reason, Dr88 loves to ignore the influence of succussion and even question its importance, while the legal manufacture of homeopathic medicines define it as an integral part of homeopathic pharmacology. <small>—Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 06:32, 31 January 2008 (UTC)</small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

:::: If water memory was shown to exist for long time periods without succussion, then it would still be a possible mechanism for homeopathy to work. However, since homeopathy has not been shown to work, and as the known forms of "water memory" last for only tens of microseconds, then this is all moot --] (]) 07:05, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

:::::What kind of water memory are you talking about, then? You are trying to debunk a theory that has nothing to do with homeopathy? Let me be clear, no homeopath believes in the concept of water memory as described by this LEAD. &mdash;] (''']''') 07:37, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

:::::As for "known forms of water memory" only lasting for such short times, that is completely false. Some forms have been shown to be persistent. Again, please see ] and recognize that you are not correct, water can exhibit path-dependent memory under some conditions. &mdash;] (''']''') 07:44, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

:::::: The use of the word memory in that article is a gross oversimplification, which I think shouldn't be included or should be fully contextualised and explained --] (]) 07:59, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

::::::: I couldn't disagree more, but feel free to go on over there and make some changes. Let's see what the editors of that article think. &mdash;] (''']''') 08:02, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

::::::: Good changes. Your edit says, "In this way Bénard cells exhibit a form of hysteresis; in simple terms they can be thought of as having a memory of their history." Are you comfortable with that language? And does this have relevance to an article on ]? &mdash;] (''']''') 08:07, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

:::::::: I see that "memory" has been changed in that article, and correctly so as it is a misleading word in that connection. It is talking about "flow", and flow simply reveals a path from one place to another, and we know that flow can be influenced by speed, temperature, obstructions, curves (in a stream), gravity, etc., and therefore Bénard cells have nothing to do with homeopathy or water memory. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 04:33, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
::::::::: I'm afraid you're mistaken, B&eacute;nard cells have nothing to do with flow. They have to with metastable structures formed in water when subjected to a sufficient temperature gradient and which have memory in the same sense as a hard drive does, they retain state persistently unless altered and then retain a new state. But hopefully now that we have a water expert in the talk he may be able to explain better. &mdash;] (''']''') 00:35, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

== Some good references ==

* {{doi|10.1038/news070806-6}} (Nature News)
* {{doi|10.1016/j.homp.2007.05.008}} (This is the editorial overview to the issue of ''Homeopathy'' devoted to water memory - poke around in that issue. ''Homeopathy'' is not a reliable source, but is an excellent one for What Homeopaths Say.)
*:Just a comment, I don't think you can categorically say that a particular source is reliable or not. ''Homeopathy'' is not a reliable source for what critics of homeopathy think, but it is a reliable source for what some homeopaths think. My only objection is to you saying it "is not a reliable source." It is a peer reviewed journal not a website or some other unreliable source. &mdash;] (''']''') 19:28, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
:: It's the choice of "peers" that is problematic. I think it's impact factor is very low too --] (]) 19:33, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
:::I think the more important question for our purposes is not what it's impact factor is relative to more mainstream journals in other fields of science, but relative to other homeopathic journals or publications. &mdash;] (''']''') 19:41, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
:::: I don't, if we're talking about science. If we're talking about what homeopaths say, then Homeopathy is a good source --] (]) 19:46, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
* {{doi:10.1016/j.homp.2005.02.004}} Says that Benveniste was working in a homeopathic mode. ] <sup>]</sup> 12:31, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
] <sup>]</sup> 12:24, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

==Nobelist and Harvard professor's research on the memory of water==
Many of you serious scientifically-mind people may know the work of ], a Nobel Prize-winning physicist and professor at Harvard. He wrote several books, including the THE PHYSICS OF HIGH PRESSURE (1949). He researched the effects of freezing water at various altitudes and found that freezing water at higher altitudes created different ice crystallization patterns than at lower altitudes. And yet, when he melted the ice that was frozen at a high altitude and then refroze it at a low altitude, the ice maintained the crystallization pattern of the higher altitude. It may be time to stop debating IF water has a memory but instead debate how it takes place, how to optimize it, how to reduce or erase it, and what uses it may have in medicine and in society. ] ] <sup>]</sup> 23:03, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

:There are many other examples of water exhibiting ]. Water does have memory, it's not possible to doubt it based on the uncontrovertable facts. What kind of memory we are talking about is still not clear, however. What in your opinion is a good V RS defining water memory for the purposes of this article? &mdash;] (''']''') 00:55, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

:: If either of you can find scientifically V & RS that clearly document your claims above (I'm not referring to Bridgman's actual findings), then they might be useful here at Misplaced Pages. Otherwise this is homeopathic speculation and OR. Making the jump from Bridgman to homeopathy or water memory is homeopathic OR. (I suspect he would have ridiculed both.) We might be able to document that such homeopathic opinions exist, and might, under the right conditions, even cite them to document the existence of such opinions. OTOH, while personal opinions are often fine on talk pages, we can't use them in articles. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 07:02, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

::: Also note that this article is about the concept called "water memory" as pursued by Jacques Benveniste and his supporters, not any property of water that might show some kind of "memory". There should be no debate on the articles of wikipedia, only the facts presented as they are known. This is not the place for the discussion suggested by Dana, and your example is unfortunately irrelevant to this article, and is OR. Perhaps to avoid confusion the article should be renamed "Benveniste's water memory", or something along those lines. It no doubt fulfils the notability criteria all on it's own, which is why it has its own article --] (]) 07:11, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

:::: Dr88, is that necessarily the case (regarding Benveniste)? Maybe this is mentioned above, but I was under the impression that the concept of water memory predated the Benveniste fiasco. Also, is there any legitimate reason for limiting this to Benveniste? If not, then Benveniste should just be a section in this article about the whole concept. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 07:19, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
::::: I think it is, although I don't have any refs to hand. If someone can provide V and RS either way that would be great. --] (]) 07:48, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

:::What OR are you talking about, Fyslee? Dana brought up a V and RS and I have provided the example of ] several times as a demonstration that water exhibits memory under some conditions. It's not original research. &mdash;] (''']''') 07:52, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

:::: The OR is "IF water has a memory but instead debate how it takes place, how to optimize it, how to reduce or erase it, and what uses it may have in medicine and in society". Misplaced Pages is not the place for this, and as it hasn't happened yet we can't add it either. Re the "memory" of Bénard cells, I have challenged this on that page as it it unreferenced. In fact the whole page lacks sources. --] (]) 08:08, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

::::: You are correct that article needs sources. I think you could look at some other sources yourself and confirm that the article is factually very good. It's a good thing that you've given it some attention. &mdash;] (''']''') 08:10, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

::::: Take it as correct for now, however, that when water is exposed to a temperature gradient it can exhibit hysteresis. Succussion is a pressure gradient rather than a temperature gradient so it is different (although temperature and pressure are ]). We do need to describe succussion in this article however if we're going to discuss homeopathy here, and if the article is water memory and not just ] then B&eacute;nard cells should be briefly discussed and linked as well. &mdash;] (''']''') 08:27, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

This article should not be limited the work or ideas of Jacques Benveniste, just as an article on homeopathy should not be limited to the work or ideas of Samuel Hahnemann. Bridgman's work is not OR. It is V and RS (without question). If you want a 3rd party to further strengthen this reference, see: James Stephenson, Field Pharmacology, An Historical Review. Journal of the American Institute of Homeopathy, January-February 1964:5-9. ] ] <sup>]</sup> 18:46, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

:: It was your comment and its content, that I quoted, that I was calling OR. --] (]) 19:16, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

::: Dana (and Whig), no one has claimed that "Bridgman's work is <s>not</s> OR." I clearly wrote above that "(I'm not referring to Bridgman's actual findings)." Dr88 is correct in his analysis. We were both referring to your own additional comments as being OR, and any claimed connection between his work and homeopathy would be ] and ]. Unless your added claims are documented in V & RS, they are just your undocumented claims and beliefs, which means that even you cannot be absolutely certain that they are true. They are beliefs until documented to be truly factual. Beliefs regarding scientifically testable matters that are asserted as absolute fact when documentation is lacking qualify by definition as pseudoscience. OTOH, when real scientists are dealing with such matters, they qualify their statements as "possibilities", "hypotheses", "beliefs", "hopes", "wishful thinking", etc., but not as "facts" or "true". -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 04:14, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

:I'm sorry, Mr. Ullman, but you have to actually document that these are called Water memory, and given that the term was created in response to Benveniste's attempt to prove homeopathy (see cites above), you'll probably have a difficult time of that. ] <sup>]</sup> 19:17, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

:: Since it is apparently correct that this term is connected with Benveniste and homeopathy, they should be the major subject matter in this article. If things unconnected with Benveniste and/or homeopathy somehow qualify for the term (as proven from V & RS), then a separate and minor section could be added. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 04:17, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

::: Bridgman's work has been cited in homeopathic journals since the 1960s and in homeopathic books since the 1970s. I will be referenced these sources shortly because they represent some of the earliest thinking amongst homeopaths and the memory of water. ] ] <sup>]</sup> 05:02, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

(undent) Just in case there was any confusion, "The Physics of High Pressure" is a quality reference (though of mainly historical interest today), and Bridgman does not indulge in mystical speculation therein. - ] ~(])]~ 20:18, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Bridgman was certainly an exceptionally gifted scientist. I do not believe that anyone is suggesting otherwise or that he ever indulged in mystical speculation. ] (]) 21:11, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

== NPOV dispute ==

I have placed the POV tag on the article because of the unresolved disputes already discussed on this page. Someone has placed a Pseudoscience label on this article when some kind of water memory is a demonstrated fact in several contexts, and the description of water memory used for this article has nothing to do with homeopathy, which it purports then to debunk as a straw man. &mdash;] (''']''') 01:55, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

:What disputes are unresolved? I see no evidence. ] (]) 02:29, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

::Please read the section above entitled ]. &mdash;] (''']''') 03:24, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

:::Looks like all the disputes are resolved to me. Perhaps you can explain what is unresolved. ] (]) 04:21, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

::::How about a V RS definition of water memory? &mdash;] (''']''') 04:31, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

:::::Already found in the article. ] (]) 04:32, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

::::::Really? What's the definition? This is what the LEAD says, ''Water memory is a controversial concept, mainly used to explain homeopathy, which holds that water is capable of retaining a "memory" of particles once dissolved in it, even after being diluted so much that the chance of even one molecule remaining in a typical homeopathic drug dose is minuscule.'' There is no mention of succussion, this has nothing to do with homeopathy. And whose definition is this? &mdash;] (''']''') 05:05, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

:::::::Benveniste's original article specifically says succussion is required for the effect to work, and we explain this promptly in the article proper. All the details don't have to appear in the summary, particularly as it's only mentioned by Benveniste late in his article. ] <sup>]</sup> 06:46, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

::::::::The article dismissively states in the middle of a paragraph, ''The effect supposedly only worked when the solution was shaken violently.'' Is this what you refer to when you say that we explain succussion in the article proper? Other issues aside, we really do have to explain the details of the claim in the LEAD sufficient that we do not misrepresent the claim, which we presently do. &mdash;] (''']''') 06:58, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

:::::::::I think you're being a bit pedantic, but I'll try to work it in. ] <sup>]</sup> 07:36, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

:::::::::: I restored a few words that were inadvertently and unnecessarily deleted. It is self-evident that 100% of the molecules of the active ingredient are still contained in the total amount of diluted water, but we are always referring to the single dose when stating that there are likely no molecules left. That's an important qualification.

:::::::::: As far as mentioning succussion in the lead, that shouldn't be necessary as that is implied by the statement that it is a homeopathic preparation that is being discussed. It can be mentioned in the body of the article, but a simple wikilink to the homeopathy article leads to that information, so even that isn't necessary. It's a given. This is indeed pedantic. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 07:48, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Friends, I do not see how ] is being pedantic (if you mean the negative connotation of this word). Succussion or vigorous shaking is an integral part of how the "memory of water" is influenced...and thanx, ] for acknowledging this oversight and dealing with it.

What I find missing from this article is reference to the work of Rustum Roy, professor of material sciences at Penn State University. He prefers to use the term "the structure of water." Roy is RS. A 3rd party source is this article from the New Scientist. Please note that this article doesn't just talk about Roy's work but also that of Garczarek and Gerwert, the work of Fuxreiter, the work of Franks, and the very important (IMO) work of Martin Chaplin. The lack of reference to the significant writings of Chaplin is a major oversight. ] ] <sup>]</sup> 17:08, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
:: (edit conflict) No Dana, succussion (or vigorous shaking) is an integral part of how homeopathy is claimed to work, but this does not necessarily mean that it is essential to "water memory". It wasn't added until a good V and RS ref was found for it (in relation to "water memory" that is). Rustum Roy's so-called work (his recent work relating to homeopathy, cf. his awful Guardian piece that Dana commented on) is awful, and has been described as such by other experts. Rustum's publications in peer-reviewed journals etc are a RS, but he isn't. Chaplin is also questionable and highly dubious. We'd have the same problems linking to Chaplin's website as we do to yours. Also, isn't this page solely about "water memory" as described in the Nature paper, and the only scientific concept thus given this name that I am aware of? The article at the moment reads as one only about that topic, and that topic clearly warrants its own article. If you want to start a more general page about nebulous concepts that could be interpreted as a memory in some poorly defined way, feel free --] (]) 17:41, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
:::I don't think this article is only about a single Nature article. If so this article is on a non-notable subject and ought to simply be put up for AfD. &mdash;] (''']''') 22:51, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
:90% of the New Scientist article is a good, non-controversial article on water's role in ]. However, a short, non-descript mention of Rustrum Roy claiming these discoveries prove homeopathy in some vague way at the end is not really enough to allow us to declare a self-published source notable, or to declare that quantum biology descriptions of water are the same as water memory. ] <sup>]</sup> 17:33, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
::Vanished, You're cherry-picking now. You're accepting some of the New Scientist article but not all of it. I'm also not clear why Rustum Roy is not a RS. He is a professor emeritus at Penn State; he has over 15 contributions to NATURE; the paper to which I referenced from him was co-authors by William Tiller, PhD, former chair of material sciences at Stanford...and there is more evidence for affirming Roy as RS. As for Martin Chaplin's site, he is a professor of applied sciences. His site has over 1,300 references to the scientific literature, and he is one of the world's experts on water. See also his article in Nature Reviews/Molecular Cell Biology, November 2006, "Do we underestimate the importance of water in cell biology" 861-866. He is a RS. Finally, are you suggesting that you are the artibrator of the definition of what this article is? Are you saying that it is only on Benveniste's definition as though you are the sole decider here? If so, you must remove its link from ] and its link from the article about ](neither the BBC nor ABC repeated the Benveniste study). ] ] <sup>]</sup> 19:14, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
] ] <sup>]</sup> 19:14, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

People are not RS; their publications may be. Personal websites are very unlikely to be RS in such a contentious area. I wont respond to your accusations about me --] (]) 19:24, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

:My point was that 90% of that article is on a completely different subject, and the mention of Rustrum Roy's ideas are clearly delineated as being on a different subject, which is then described for the last section of the article. This article does not give us licence to describe anything that comes before Rustrum Roy's work as related to Water memory, and does not make a self-published source count as a reliable, verifiable, notable source, just because it mentions the author. If you would like to mention specific quotes from the section of the New Scientist article from the point where it introduces Rustrum Roy's work onwards, perhaps that might be usable, though it would be useful if you could show additional secondary sources, as, well, New Scientist is fairly well-known for including regular controversial, speculative, or sensationalist articles (choose your favourite adjective!). is quoted in our article on ], for instance. ] <sup>]</sup> 19:54, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

::We might want to take further conversation about this article to ]. &mdash;] (''']''') 22:53, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

== Pseudoscience Info box ==
{{Infobox Pseudoscience
|name=Water memory
|topics=], ]
|claims=Some unknown process allows water to retain properties of a substance diluted beyond the point of any solute molecules being left in the solution.
|origyear=1988
|origprop=]
|currentprop=], ], various ]
}}

Other than it being a bit ugly, what is the problem with the pseudoscience information box? Please justify it's removal. I see no misrepresentation in what it states, and this is a clear case of pseudoscience so there's no POV. --] (]) 20:33, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
:I never liked them much anyway - they aren't very good infoboxes, and have a tendency for the "claims" section to look like it's being presented as fact, due to being called "core tenets". Anyway, surely the disciplines are ], not ] and ]. ] <sup>]</sup> 21:20, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
:: Fine, it is ugly. I made a few changes, but it's still ugly. Does Ennis still support this theory too? --] (]) 21:24, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
::: Nobody supports the theory advanced in the claims. Nobody. &mdash;] (''']''') 21:58, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
::::You're being pedantic about succussion again, aren't you? ] <sup>]</sup> 22:30, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
:::::Accuracy isn't pedantic. It is inaccurate to omit. Moreover the entirety of the "Core tenets" seems to be based on nothing but misapprehension, it is not chemical properties at all that anyone thinks are retained but certain physical properties. And finally we cannot call it Pseudoscience when we're talking about an actual scientific experiment. &mdash;] (''']''') 22:33, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
: Hi Whig. Why don't you place another version of the info box here with what you'd like it to say, or just write it out in a comment. Again though, I don't think it should be included --] (]) <small>—Preceding ] was added at 17:23, 2 February 2008 (UTC)</small><!--Template:Undated--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
::Um, because it isn't pseudoscience, it shouldn't have a pseudoscience infobox. &mdash;] (''']''') 21:23, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

==Confusion in "More Recent Experiments"==
The 2000 study by the Dept of Defense had nothing to do with the NATURE studies, and this is not clear at all here. Further, this transmission research has nothing to do with the "memory of water." It is interesting how some people here want the "memory of water" article to only refer to Benveniste's research, and yet, they feel compelled to bring in other research that has nothing to do with this subject. If you want this article to be on Benveniste's research, he had a very broad body of research that is not at all a part of this article. ] ] <sup>]</sup> 02:42, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

:If this article is really only about Benveniste's research and not about other kinds of water memory like ] or other demonstrations of the hysteresis effects which are undoubtedly present when water is subjected to external energies, then this article should simply be merged with ]. &mdash;] (''']''') 03:03, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
:: I disagree. Like the ], this topic is notable enough and interesting enough to warrent it's own article. Rename it to "Water memory (Benveniste)" if it upsets you, as water memory is the name used to describe this whole affair --] (]) 10:25, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

== Notice of category removal ==

There is no indication that the ideology of Water memory is pseudoscience, therefore, I am removing the category until it can reasonably be proven that it is.
Also, the category of pseudo-science should not be added unless the article itself discusses how ] relates to pseudo-science.

Please don't revert the removal of unsourced material and categories without providing adequate sources; it is not constructive.

]] 14:26, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
:: It is clearly Verifiable that water memory as promoted by the disgraced scientist Jacques Benveniste is pseudoscience, and this article is primarily about his topic and should be in that category. It would have been better if you'd brought your concerns to the talk page rather than making a controversial edit against consensus after you had been made aware of the homeopathy probation --] (]) 17:22, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

:: I'm curious; where, in this article, is there any mention of how this topic relates to pseudo-science. For example: ] has four () references linking ] with pseudoscience. "It is clearly Verifiable" <- This cannot be verified without a source that '''directly ''and'' explicitly''' supports your claim. ]] 18:35, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

::: I'm not interested in what's going on in homeopathy. This is clearly pseudoscience (a google search will provide you with a million refs, or just look at Ben Goldacre's Badscience column in the guardian). If you want refs added to the page then that is no problem too. --] (]) <small>—Preceding ] was added at 19:00, 2 February 2008 (UTC)</small><!--Template:Undated--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== View froman Uninvolved Spectator ==

I have been having a look at this article, at some of the references discussed (including the special issue of ''Homeopathy'' and the letters in response), and some of the links. I have decided to offer some thoughts, for what it is worth, for others to consider:
* '''Article Title:''' There has been a considerable amount of literature discussion of issues that might be broadly considered 'water memory', yet most are missing from this article. Either the article should be considerably expanded (and the homeopathy discussion made a sub-section), or the article should be named something like 'water memory (homeopathy)' and a disambiguation page created to link to other article(s) which deal with topics which could be called water memory in the broad sense. Note, I am not suggesting a POV fork - having one article noting science and 50 fs memory, and another just presenting the homeopathic perspective. However, effects associated with ionic impurities or silica from glass surfaces (for example) have not been connected with the influence of homepathic preparations to (say) 30C, at least as far as I am aware.
Assuming an article remains looking just at water memory in the homeopathic context.
* '''Lead:''' The lead of the present article needs re-writing. ] is right about this - a reasonable definition of water memory from a homeopathic perspective is needed. Something that takes in the succussion treatment, and the notions of vital energy. Noting that such an idea is scientifically controversial can follow, but at least a definition sdhould preceed it. To highlight (with an exaggeration), no one would say that "The heliocentric model of the solar system is the religiously-controversial concept, mainly used to explain astrophysics, which holds that the Earth is capable of "moving" around the sun ..." was a NPOV formulation.
* '''The Homeopathy / Water Memory Link:''' Whilst water memory is used by homeopaths to explain how their preparations function, it should be made clear that the concepts are distinct. Research demonstrating that water memory is a real effect would not 'prove' homeopathy is valid. Similarly, evidence debunking water memory does not 'disprove' homeopathy. Judgements on the efficacy of homeopathy must come from research demonstrating its connection with improved patient outcomes - and not on anything else. If the evidence shows homepathic treatments are effective but that water memory is untenable, that merely means that water memory is an inadequate theoretical basis for rationalising the observed efficacy. It does not mean that the observed efficacy is wrong.
* '''Poitevin's characterisation of Benveniste:''' The lead indicates that Benveniste sought to "prove" one of the basic foundations of homeopathy. From a scientific perspective, this is really troubling. Evidence can be offered in support of a position, but that isn't the same as proof. We have a theory of evolution for which there is a massive amount of supporting evidence, but scientists would not deny the ''possibility'' of a better theory emerging later, or that experimental results could not invalidate the theory. Given present knowledge, such a possibility seems remote indeed - but a good scientist recognises this doesn't mean it is impossible. Simiarly, evidence may be presented for the efficacy of a homeopathic remedy, but that isn't a 'proof' of homeopathy. Like mainstream medicine, issues around efficacy of homeopathic treatments revolve around evidence in individual cases, not on the quality of the theoretical discussions of mode of action. Setting out to "prove" in this case sounds unlike a scientific approach - rather than to offer empirical evidence for, for example - and I checked, "prove" is indeed the word used by Poitevin.
* '''Histeresis:''' has been mentioned on this page several times. The ] article needs work, and the use of "memory" in its lead is both a comparatively recent addition (IP editor, a few months ago) and a questionable use of the term. The second use in that article is talking about probability and dice having no memory, so seems strange in an article about (principallly) histeresis in materials science and physics.
* By the way, the present article seems more of a discussion of the controversy around the biological efficacy of antilgE at high dilution, rather than about water memory as a hypothesised explanation for homeopathic treatments being efficacious.
OK, that's enough from me. Hopefully this outside view is useful. :) ] (]) 14:37, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

==Proposed addition by Martin Chaplin ==

I have removed the following addition made by an anon IP. I think the wording needs improving and we can discuss this here first:

"A number of papers concerning aspects of the memory of water have been published in a special issue of the Journal ‘Homeopathy’ in 2007. In the main they show how the properties of water may be unexpectedly changed by simple processing and that such changes may remain for extensive periods of time. The changes in the aqueous properties seem, at least partly, down to the inherent unusualness of water.<ref name="Chaplin">{{cite journal |author=Chaplin MF |title=The memory of water; an overview |journal=Homeopathy |volume=96 |pages=143–150 |year=2007 }}</ref>"

Thanks --] (])

:I have notified {{IPuser|86.134.27.61}} of the article probation and placed them on 1RR going forward. Let's err on the side of explaining policy to them and encouraging discussion here, but if there is further edit-warring then I will impose a short block. ''']''' <sup>]</sup> 19:18, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

== Anon IP addition ==

It is clear that there are rules that I was not aware of when I made my edit (86.134.27.61). I assumed that making an unbiased correct addition, without changing previous text and relevant and important to the topic was sufficient. I now find that I must appease people as well or else they simply delete my addition and complain when I reassert it. If you find my addition biased or untrue or irrelevant or unimportant then feel free to remove it, but pay me the courtesy of explaining your reasons in words I might understand.] (]) 20:48, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
:: Hi, welcome to wikipedia. You might want to make yourself aware of several important WP policies if you're going to edit articles related to homeopathy, like this one. For example, ] is an important one as you added a reference to a journal issue for which, I believe, you were the editor. Also, questions as to Homeopathy's (the journal) value as a reliable source (for anything other than the views of homeopaths) have been raised, per ]. Misplaced Pages is not a place for personal opinions, or things people have put on websites or blogs etc, but for verifiable (]) facts. Thanks for saying hi, and feel free to justify your edit on this page and we can attempt to work towards consensus. --] (]) 21:00, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Clearly I declare any conflict of interest by giving my name, which others do not. I believe that the full issue of 'Homeopathy' on 'Memory of Water' is relevant to a Misplaced Pages article on 'Memory of Water'. The issue also included a paper by a 'Memory of water' sceptic, and I am not a Homeopath nor was my paper written with any deliberate bias but as an article by someone who studies water and wishes to understand more. The bias in the Misplaced Pages article is clear and will be made worse by ignoring facts. In my short addition I only state facts that someone looking at it may believe relevant. I do not believe they are disputable. I am not looking at self-promotion but the Misplaced Pages article at the moment is lacking so much in scope that I felt it needed some balance.] (]) 21:25, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

:That's all well and good. Please bring your comments here first and don't edit the main page. Thanks --] (])
How about allowing me to put it back up then?] (]) 21:48, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
: No you shouldn't edit the article space of this page due to a CoI. Wait for consensus to be established in the discussion above, to which you can add any justification you wish (bearing in mind WP policies). --] (]) 21:54, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Just to make it clear. This is what I wished to add. I have no idea who, when or what decides 'consensus'. If you do not want help in editing your pages then you should make that clear from the start and I could save my efforts for elsewhere.

"A number of papers concerning aspects of the memory of water have been published in a special issue of the Journal ‘Homeopathy’ in 2007. In the main they show how the properties of water may be unexpectedly changed by simple processing and that such changes may remain for extensive periods of time. The changes in the aqueous properties seem, at least partly, down to the inherent unusualness of water.<ref name="Chaplin">{{cite journal |author=Chaplin MF |title=The memory of water; an overview |journal=Homeopathy |volume=96 |pages=143–150 |year=2007 }}</ref>"
] (]) 22:01, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

: This isn't my page, and anyone can edit it within WP policy. Unfortunately this falls foul of ] so you need to bring it here for discussion with other editors. This may take time but I'm sure people will respond soon. Are you aware of the journal club Ben Goldacre started with regards this issue of Homeopathy? --] (]) 22:38, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

::Relevant text to keep in mind, "Editing in an area in which you have professional or academic expertise is not, in itself, a conflict of interest. Using material you yourself have written or published is allowed within reason, but only if it is notable and conforms to the content policies. Excessive self-citation is strongly discouraged. When in doubt, defer to the community's opinion." &mdash;] (''']''') 23:03, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
::: Yes indeed, thanks Whig. I don't mean to appear like I don't want you to be here - wikipedia needs all the help it can get (especially from scientists like us). I'm careful not to edit pages directly related to my main research, as it is hard to keep NPOV (especially since I'm named on a few pages). Cheers, --] (]) 23:12, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
:::: It should also be noted that ] does not mean having no point of view. It does mean that all significant views should be represented with ] that are ]. &mdash;] (''']''') 23:40, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Wow, it is a pleasure and an honor that ] is adding his expertise to this article, and I tend to have greater respect for those editors who choose to be transparent. To clarify, just because Dr88 says that the journal, Homeopathy (published by Elsevier) isn't RS does NOT make it non-RS. This is a peer-review journal, and even a recent article published in NATURE considered providing a review of the July 2007 issue for which Martin Chaplin served as the guest editor. There is RS 3rd party recognition of this issue, confirming that this issue and this journal is notable. As for COI, please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a person able to reference an article that they have written in a peer-review journal but not refer people to one's own website that is not a peer-review source? ] ] <sup>]</sup> 00:41, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
:Dana (and Martin), the journal ''Homeopathy'' is an RS for Homeopathy claims. It is not an RS for proving water memory. If you want it to be evaluated by the community, take it to the RS noticeboard, but they will give you a similar answer, I'm sure. Peer-review does not automatically qualify something as an RS. The sooner you realize that, the easier it will be for you to edit effectively. ] (]) 03:53, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
:I'm all for including the ''Homeopathy'' issue, briefly summarising the various ideas, so long as speculation is not treated as evidence of fact. ] <sup>]</sup> 09:57, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Vanished that the ''Homeopathy'' issue should be referenced. It is a peer-reviewed journal that is published by Elsevier, and it quite informative for those who take the time to read it without prejudice. ] (]) 04:38, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
:We can write about the subject without bias, and without resolving the matter proven or absurd. At least that is what we are supposed to do, as editors. This is not the place where things are proven or disproven. The subject of this article is the subject matter of the ''Homeopathy'' issue and it should be considered a V and RS for the purpose of expressing what some theories and criticisms are, and other criticisms and support from other V and RS should also be used to include all significant views. We will need to do some careful balancing but we should be able to show all sides in a neutral way that lets the reader understand the controversy. &mdash;] (''']''') 04:50, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
:: Your summary of hox you plan to edit this article is biased. The matter as far as Benveniste's "water memory" (the only concept so called) is resolved. It is not the job of wikipedia editors to introduce uncertainty where none exists. If you want to write about the "structure of water", start an article about it. I agree that Homeopathy is a V and RS for the opinions of homeopaths, but not for science. --] (]) 07:54, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Dr88 is wrong (again). The last paragraph in the current page concerns a different 'water memory' effect, and currently is "Research published in 2005 on hydrogen bond network dynamics in water measured that "liquid water essentially loses the memory of persistent correlations in its structure" within 50 femtoseconds." This work has nothing to do with Beveniste-related material. It only concerns the 'memory' of single water molecules in liquid and is not related to larger scale effects, which may be thought by many to be the basis of 'Memory of Water'. Unfortunately that paragraph rather gives the wrong impression, being so far out of line with the rest of the current article, which is perhaps what Nature intended when they gave it the headline they did. ] (]) 08:27, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
:: Martin, please read ]. Edits to this page must be discussed first due to the probation. If you have a good source for your statements, add them here and propose your changes to the article --] (]) 11:24, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
::: My source for my statement is the paper itself. The debate over what this page is about should be sorted before such bits may possibly be edited. I feel the article is far too narrow at present as the 'memory of water' concept has moved on (and separated somewhat from 'homeopathy') since first promulgated. ] (]) 11:50, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
:::: I agree. Perhaps this article should be renamed "Water memory (Benveniste)", and a seperate article on the "Sructure of water" started, with a disambiguation page here. --] (]) 13:19, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
::: 'Structure of water' is a much wider topic (and probably is worthy of its own page) but one that may exclude the recent 'memory of water' debate altogether (which includes the importance of adventitious solutes etc). I suggest that the current page be simply expanded such that the Benveniste stuff is also given as part of the history of the term/phenomena. ] (]) 14:00, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
::: Perhaps "Water memory (Benveniste)" (as this is impotant and notable, à la the Sokal affair), a "Structure of water" page, and then a page on the "memory of water" (but with a better, scientific title, perhaps). They could be sufficiently interlinked, and it would keep the Benveniste stuff away from the real science --] (]) 14:43, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
:Is it correct in your view that ] demonstrate that water exhibits some kind of metamolecular memory when subjected to a sufficient temperature gradient? If so, does succussion represent a pressure gradient and do you feel this is relevant to the present article? &mdash;] (''']''') 09:59, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
:: It is relevant if you can find a V and Reliable Source saying all this, and that this is related to "water memory". --] (]) 11:22, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
:::] do not seem to show a special property of water and I do not see the effect as showing a special 'memory' any more than a wave crossing an ocean shows memory. Succussion does involve pressure changes of about 5-100 MPa (some believe it is higher) and such pressures do cause effects in the water (e.g. they can dislodge nanoparticles of silica material from the glassware and cause changes in peroxide and gas present). Succussion is definitely relevant to the present article but I do not believe ] are. They may well be usefully linked from the article however. ] (]) 11:38, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
::::I bet such link will get deleted eventually, as it had before. I, personally, see no relation at all between a form of convective flow in (all) liquids and this mythical property of water. --] (]) 14:00, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
There does seem to be consensus for adding back my original edit so I plan to put it back up together with a link to the Journal Club established at http://www.badscience.net/?p=490 a citation for the original Homeopathy issue on 'Memory of Water' (July 2007) and a citation for the Homeopathy issue that contains 'Comments' and 'Replies' to that issue (Jan 2008) unless a reverse consensus arises. Note that my paper, that I cite, contains 48 references to peer-reviewed papers concerning 'Memory of Water'. I believe it gives an unbiased overview of current thinking concerning 'Memory of Water'; it certainly overviews the current state of play. I will not cite the relevant page on my web-site but I do believe that that also is a RS as many of my other pages have been cited by within Misplaced Pages and in the published peer-reviewed literature. ] (]) 15:18, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

==Link==
I am surprised there are no refs here to Rustrum Roy's work such as why are such absent? thanks ] 14:16, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
:The external link that you suggested is a good one, especially since it provides a debate on various points of view, and is not one-sided. ] (]) 14:29, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
A little over 2 hours after I added this external link - ''it was reverted'' with the comment "Needs to be linked from inside text". I thought the time for edit warring was ended, and a new era of cooperative editing to improve Wikepedia was to have begun. ] (]) 18:03, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
:: Please AGF. One edit (in 5 days) hardly counts as edit-warring --] (])
:I have added back JUST the link so hopefully that will be OK. It is a relevant link and the removal is not really justified by not being mentioned in the body text. Many, many wiki articles have ext. links that are not even mentioned in the article itself. So the reason given does not seem sufficient to delete the link. I agree compromise should prevail. It is not a contentious link. thank you ] 18:06, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
:: This looks quit like a blog - does it meet the criteria for external links? It would also be better if it had something to do directly with something in the text --] (]) 19:59, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to replace the blog link, which contains only a small part of Roy's presentation and omitted all of the criticism, with a more appropriate reference:
*{{cite journal |author=Novella S, Roy R, Marcus D, Bell IR, Davidovitch N, Saine A |title=A Debate: Homeopathy-Quackery or a Key to the Future of Medicine? |journal=J Altern Complement Med |volume= |issue= |pages= |year=2008 |pmid=18199017 |doi=10.1089/acm.2007.0770}} &mdash; ]'']'' 21:47, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
**It was also reproduced here: {{cite journal |author=Gold PW, Novella S, Roy R, ''et al'' |title=Homeopathy--quackery or a key to the future of medicine? |journal=Homeopathy |volume=97 |issue=1 |pages=28–33 |year=2008 |pmid=18194763 |doi=10.1016/j.homp.2007.12.002}}

: I have no problem with the reference that ] has added, though it should be in addition to, not in place of, reference to Roy's published articles or a good 3rd party source, such as the New Scientist's article "The Quantum Elixir" ] ] <sup>]</sup> 22:22, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

==discredited==
Just explain how it is discredited and by whom, & when and add a RS cite and then it will be OK. You can't just say it is discredited with no justification. thanks ] <small>—Preceding ] was added at 20:22, 7 February 2008 (UTC)</small><!--Template:Undated--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->

== Another Ennis and Multicentre Replication Reference ==
Is there any reason why this more recent Ennis reference has been ignored? ] ] <sup>]</sup> 05:06, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
:How do we report unexplained phenomena: ''We are however unable to explain our findings and are reporting them to encourage others to investigate this phenomenon.'' Interesting. &mdash;] (''']''') 05:21, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

The Text in the Article, "Nature published a number of follow-up experiments that failed to find any effect in 1993, " gives the wrong message. This paper did not support Benveniste but did indeed find some unexpected effects. Thus it ignored some data as including 'a source of error for which we cannot account'. Also the statistical report on which it was based (J. Burridge, A repeat of the 'Benveniste' experiment: Statistical analysis, Research Report 100, Department of Statistical Science, University College London, England; available at http://www.weirdtech.com/sci/burridge.zip )stated 'One interpretation is that there are, after all, differences between the treatments...'. I would like to suggest that this sentence be replaced by "Nature published a paper describing number of follow-up experiments that failed to find a similar effect in 1993,", but will leave the argument open for a while for feedback.

I also believe that Ennis reference should be included for completeness. ] (]) 16:22, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

== "More Recent Experiments" section ==
The reference to the digital medicine/transmission research conducted by Jonas and funded by the Dept of Defense has nothing to do with the "memory of water" issue. This study is already discussed at ]. Unless someone has strong reasons that it should be here, I plan to delete it. ] ] <sup>]</sup> 01:04, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

You may well have a point. However, this topic involves the first three paragraphs in the 'More recent experiments' section. They do link in both with the 'Memory of water' topic and ]. Initially a way forward would be perhaps to give them a separate headed paragraph here; e.g. 'Digital biology'. This would allow us to see how well they fit into either topic and the consequences of any move to ] or deletion. This area of Benveniste's work does lack any support from outside his team and its data and so it is easily criticized by all and sundry. It does not seem to me to be likely to be pure invention, but this is scant support for it. ] (]) 02:48, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

:Perhaps the appropriate edits may be made to the ] article and if proper to mention here it could be briefly done and linked. &mdash;] (''']''') 02:59, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

::If no one suggests otherwise, I will delete the descriptions of and references to the digital medicine/transmission research. Please note that it is already mentioned in the bio of ]. ]<sup>]</sup> 14:24, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

:::Although Benveniste's digital medicine has little outside support and perhaps even may reflect badly on both memory of water and homeopathy topics, it was directly linked to Benveniste's memory of water work We perhaps should retain a brief direct to there. Also there is not much concerning this on Benveniste's page, so if the delete is decided I will move the deleted section to that page after posting on their talk page. ] (]) 14:53, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

::::I do not see how Benveniste's digital medicine is linked to his memory of water work except through HIM. Unless you have a notable and RS reference for this connection, a deletion here is in order. In any case, this info has a place on his bio page, not on the memory of water page. By the way, it is a pleasure to see that you and I don't agree on everything, though we can and will still be gentlemanly to each other. ]<sup>]</sup> 18:30, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

:::I believe Benveniste considered the transmission of biological information via some molecular organization going on in the water, which he associated with the possibility that it would give out a signal that could be recorded and played back. As I wrote, this has close to zero support apart from his team, although I would not be surprised if there was not something unexpected still to be found in this work. I really do not feel strongly about this but reiterate my previous comments. There is a paper describing some of this at: Thomas, Y, Kahhak, L. and Aissa, J., The physical nature of the biological signal., a puzzling phenomenon: the critical contribution of Jacques Benveniste, Water and the Cell, G. Pollack et al (eds.) Springer (2006)pp 325-340. ] (]) 19:30, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

== Controversy about BBC's Horizon Study ==
Almost two years AFTER the Horizon study was aired, Professor Madeleine Ennis was shown the specific protocol that the BBC used, and she was shocked to notice that this was not a "repeat" of her work as the BBC had declared. Not only was this study that was developed and conducted by Wayne Turnbull a different experiment, Ennis notes serious flaws that would have led to the basophils being killed by the inclusion of a chemical that should not have been a part of the experiment. For the record, Ennis letter is posted at my website here: . A copy of the protocol used is here: . A further analysis of the BBC's study and the 20/20 tv program's same study is here: . Please note that I cannot post this information or these links to the article here due to ](this website is mine). However, I shoula also note that the British Medical Journal (BMJ) acknowledged this website as "website of the week" here:
-- see page 518. ] ] <sup>]</sup> 19:30, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

:: I notice four websites (other than BMJ itself) mentioned, without any single one of them named as Website of the week. Two of them are skeptical, anti-quackery websites that are strongly skeptical of homeopathy. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 18:25, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

:If there is no objection I can post this, as I think it is important that Ennis criticism be 'included. &mdash;] (''']''') 19:52, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

::The evidence clearly suggests that the Horizon program did not repeat the work exactly as it said it did and that the differences were significant. I agree that the criticisms should be posted as a caution against too much reliance on its results. ] (]) 20:25, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

:::Maybe I should let Martin Chaplin make the edit given his greater expertise in this area, unless there are objections to this. &mdash;] (''']''') 20:58, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

:::: How would you propose to do this without any independent secondary or tertiary sources? Do you have them? This should be a very notable matter, and if it truly is notable enough for inclusion, it should be possible to find multiple sources of this type. Without them you are left with nothing. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 18:23, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

::The evidence of the Ennis email and the protocol(s) seem pretty solid to me. The www.homeopathic.com website material brings together much information. All together, I see a strong case for serious criticism of the TV programs without any alternative view. Does anyone know of any reference to anywhere that supports the programmes? If not then the criticisms should at least be mentioned together with links to the evidence. ] (]) 20:06, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

::: Martin, I'm not sure how familiar you are with the policies on sourcing here, but Dana's site is not considered a V & RS. It can only be cited in an article about himself. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 07:07, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

One other source that reported about the 20/20 study as "junk science" is at: . See the report about "Homeopathy gets 'Stosseled'". The source, the Natural Foods Merchandiser, is a leading monthly magazine for the natural products/natural medicine industry in the U.S. Another source is the "Townsend Letter for Doctors and Patients" at . ] ] <sup>]</sup> 23:31, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

:These articles were written by you, is that correct? &mdash;] (''']''') 00:58, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

:: No and possibly...I didn't write the article for the Townsend Letter for Doctors and Patients; it was written by one of their editors. The other article says that it was written by me, but I am not 100% certain about this. I hope to find out with more certainty within 24-48 hours. As for another 3rd party source, there is also Martin Chaplin's website. ] ] <sup>]</sup> 04:49, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

:::: Whatever the case may be, it looks like you are again attempting to promote your own writings and recommending that they be used as sources here. Be very careful about self-promotion as that is forbidden here. Misplaced Pages is not your soapbox. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 07:07, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

:::Fyslee...please note that the section in which my website (http://www.homeopathic.com] is mentioned is called "website of the week." Perhaps it is more accurate to say that this website was one of four highlighted in an article called "website of the week." This reference provides a certain degree of ]. ] ] <sup>]</sup> 05:33, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

:::: At least it's mentioned. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 07:07, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

::As a scientist, I am not bothered where the evidence is posted. If it is evidence, then it should be taken into account. Is there any dispute as to the veracity of the hard evidence concerning this point posted at the www.homeopathic.com website? I have not heard any doubts about it expressed. If not, then why does it matter where it is posted? ] (]) 07:51, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

:::: The veracity of the information is not the point here. It has to be notable and posted on a ] and ]. Note that when Misplaced Pages uses the terms "verifiable" and "reliable source" in this connection, they are not used in the usual sense, but have a special meaning here, so please familiarize yourself with those policy pages. This is especially important since repeated additions of any website deemed unreliable can in some cases end up with the website being blacklisted, in which case its future deletion will be turned over to a bot, which will blindly delete it on sight in the future. I doubt that is a danger here as long as it isn't used without being pretty certain it qualifies. I'd follow the advice given below by Whig and ask on ]. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 04:29, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

:::It seems fine to me. If anyone has doubts we can ask on ] whether this is acceptable. &mdash;] (''']''') 08:06, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

::::I am aware of ], and I will never insert a link to one of my own articles in a wikipedia article. However, it is not COI when I refer to it as a possible resource in the Talk pages (I'm only around 99% certain of this; if others have a different understanding, please let me know). Others are welcome to judge whether they consider my writings worthy of inclusion in an article. ] ] <sup>]</sup> 19:41, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

:: I am saddened that Wiki seems relatively uninterested in the truth only that whatever is contained is verifiable; "The threshold for inclusion in Misplaced Pages is verifiability, not truth". However, even with the above implied criticism of the publication source (if not its contents, I believe it is quite correct to change the sentence on this page to:
"The challenge ended with the Horizon team failing to prove the memory of water. There is some controversy, however, over whether the original methodology was followed closely enough." (we all seem to be agreed on this)
It would be useful here to reference the protocol at http://www.homeopathic.com/articles/view,130 so that people can compare it for themselves with the Ennis paper(s). ] (]) 08:54, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

::: Martin, you are providing pretty good evidence that you are deliberately planning to ignore and violate Misplaced Pages's policies on this point. Such actions can get you banned and the source blacklisted. Please stop. Misplaced Pages is not to be used as a private website, soapbox, or for advocacy. Believe me, you real life reputation can get seriously damaged if you start screwing around with violations of Misplaced Pages policy. You are a known person and this project is constantly watched by all kinds of people, including weirdos, cyberstalkers, news media, and employers. Keep your hands clean and you will always be able to defend your actions here. Mess with policies and you can become the subject of very public Arbitration here, and that's without the benefit of a lawyer. It's no fun. Please reconsider. Your knowledge and experience shouldn't get blocked from here. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 07:18, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

:::: Please AGF. This is a new editor, who is anxious to contribute to the project, frankly in an area that needs more input. I think you are jumping the gun. This is a new editor and it takes some time to understand the ], ], ], ] and other policies and guidelines, let alone the idiosyncratic interpretations of such. I think he needs to be schooled. ] (]) 00:11, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

::::: Anthon01, you are quite right. I know that Martin is new here, and that's why I have warned him a few times and asked him to read the involved polices. You have provided more wikilinks and he would do well to read them. Newbies should always take warnings and advice from more experienced users seriously. I'm sure he can learn this and I'm trying to give him prior warning in order to save him a lot of grief. That would be too bad. He knows a lot and we need people like him here. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 01:51, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

:::::: It's old hat to you now, but remember how many times you had to read those policies before they started to stick, let alone make sense to you? ] (]) 17:51, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

::::::: Very, very, VERY true! That's why it's so important that we help each other with good advice. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 07:25, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

:: I am searching for consensus and quoting Misplaced Pages policy, but thanks for looking out for me. ] (]) 08:28, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

::I now believe that direct reference to the Ennis email is probably best not allowed unless Ennis gives her permission. Thus in ] it is stated: ''In the absence of permission from the author (including of any included prior correspondence) or their lapse into public domain, the contents of private correspondence, including e-mails, should not be posted on-wiki.''. Also that putting the methods used by Ennis and Horizon side by side may amount to research. Therefore I have (regretfully) come to the conclusion that the clear differences I have found between the two methods cannot be described on the Water Memory page unless we agree to allow reference to Dana's research given at his website at http://www.homeopathic.com/articles/view,58. ] (]) 16:39, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

==Double-blind study==

In the intro, it claims some double-blind studies have shown it, but it seems from Maddox's description/visit to the lab that proper ] procedures were not followed, thus meaning the studies weren't double-blind at all; additionally, the fact that ] is the explanation for many of the positive results, it seems that the statement that double-blind studies have confirmed it is just wrong. What double-blind studies HAVE actually shown it? ] (]) 21:21, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

::The 'experimenter effect' did not mean it was not double blinded. Maddox only showed that his double-blind experiments did not show a positive effect. I cannot find where Maddox makes the statement concerning 'proper ] procedures were not followed'. ] (]) 21:52, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

:::The real story of the "Maddox/Nature experiments" is quite fascinating. Benveniste always conducted his experiments in a blind fashion. There was a good reason that he was in charge of a leading lab in INSERM...he was a highly respected allergist and researcher. However, when Maddox and his crew came to do the study, they insisted upon doing the first 3 studies in a non-blind fashion. Benveniste initially objected, but then relented. Although the results were "positive," no one took them seriously. Then, the fourth experiment was conducted in a blind fashion. Benveniste's assistant read the basophil degranation through a microscope without knowledge of whether she was reading the treatment or control groups. What was totally ignored in the drama that ensued was that this FOURTH study found a positive effect from the homeopathic doses (70-75% degranulation at dilutions of 10, 16, 17, 18, and 22). Then, Maddox and crew decided to blind the person doing the pipetting into the testtubes AND the person reading in the microscope. These latter 3 trials had negative results, so the Nature team asserted that the entire experiment was "negative," when in fact, 1 of the 4 blinded experiments was positive. It is important to note that many immunological studies have a 10-40% result and are still considered positive, especially because the placebo controls tend to find no degranulation at all. ALL of this information is in the Nature article (see figure 2 on page 334), and Benveniste's first published response to Maddox and crew highlighted these facts. ]<sup>]</sup> 22:49, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

::I propose to change 'supposedly' to 'reportedly' before double-blind, but unless there is evidence that the studies were not double-blinded, or were stated not to be double-blinded, I may revert this later to neither. Clearly the innuendo is such that inserting 'supposedly' is not a minor amendment. It is down to the first edit by Titanium Dragon (adding 'supposedly') to get a consensus and give the evidence for the change to 'supposedly'. ] (]) 04:35, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
:::Per ] 'supposedly' should be removed. I do not see a need for 'reportedly' either, which still suggests some unverified doubt. &mdash;] (''']''') 04:43, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
::::Let's go with the fact that 0 (zero) double-blind repetitions of these supposed positive "double-blind" experiments exist. So yes, there are '''extreme''' amounts of doubt for these actually being double-blind experiments. Reportedly is fine by me. ] (]) 04:55, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
:::::Do you have a V RS source that claims this or is this just your opinion that they were not double-blinded in spite of claiming to be? &mdash;] (''']''') 07:41, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

::I disagree with your 'fact'. Also very few repetitions have been attempted; certainly fewer than the original series. I believe that evidence is required; if even Maddox did not say they were not double blinded then who has? ] (]) 05:08, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
:::If water memory were proven to be true, it would be shouted from high on the mountain tops, because it would be nothing less than earth shattering. If memory serves, I have yet to see this actually happen. Since you work extensively in this area, I must ask if your colleagues are discussing this "proven fact" of water memory? Regardless, doesn't it seem odd that so few repetitions have been undertaken? Could it be that the originals have been shown to be little more than error filled experiments and any proper experiment has yet to yield a result? So yes, then there is obviously a problem with the experiment, as described. Fouling up the double-blind procedure is one way (maybe the most common) to get results not typical of what is expected. ] (]) 07:11, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

:Baegis, you misunderstand my statement concerning 'fact'. I was referring to the fact you propose not the fact of water memory. Shifting the ground does not help a discussion. As for water memory, I put my still-present position in my paper, which does seem to be the most downloaded paper from Homeopathy recently. What different people mean by water memory clearly differ from one another. My viewpoint here is independent over whether I believe one thing or another, it is solely governed by the evidence and my appreciation of it. I have found that over the years certain people take biased stances on the pro evidence because they start with the idea that it cannot be true (as they do not understand how it could possibly work). For example, Maddox stated his bias before he went to Benveniste. Such people then ignore any effects that disagree with there pre-conceptions, like the authors of the Shang Lancet paper. I try to be fair in my assessment of the evidence, and being fair try to stick to the evidence. Being fair means that whether or not I believe that the data published in Nature that started this controversy proved Benveniste's memory of water hypothesis or not, I believe his data should be treated fairly. In the history of science many studies have initially led to wrong conclusions but that is not necessarily the fault of the data. Also it is always very easy to publish science that everyone agrees fits in well with current thought, but apparently highly dangerous to step outside that box even though that is where (sometimes) truly important scientific discoveries are made. ] (]) 08:36, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

: I agree with Dana above. It is clear that a double-blinded study was overseen and vouched for by Maddox in Benveniste's Lab that gave a positive effect, therefore I am removing my 'reportedly'. Clearly this experiment should be treated in the text in exactly the same way as Maddox's subsequent three negative runs. At the moment I am stymied by the 1RR rule. ] (]) 08:50, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

== LEAD (#2) ==

The introduction is self-contradictory and confusing. For instance, it says: ''The term was invented to describe the claims of Benveniste, who sought to prove one of the basic foundations of homeopathy by conducting an experiment to be published "independently of homeopathic interests" in a major journal'' -- if the experiment was independent of homeopathic interests, what does this have to do with the foundations of homeopathy? &mdash;] (''']''') 22:57, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

:He actually meant that it should be published in a mainstream journal that was not thought to be biased towards homeopathic interests, I believe. Any help with the phrasing to put this over better would be gratefully received. ] (]) 23:01, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

:How about editing simply to : ''The term was used by Benveniste to illustrate his claims. He sought to prove this one of the basic foundations of homeopathy by conducting an experiment and publishing the results not in the homeopathic press but in a mainstream scientific journal.'' ] (]) 14:15, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

:Note that I am not happy stating that it is ''one of the basic foundations of homeopathy'' as it is not, but this phrase was originally there, and I do not want to change too much. ] (]) 15:10, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

::Martin, as I have said before, wikipedia is lucky to have you as an editor helping to provide accurate information on this article. One of the wiki-policies is to be bold, especially when you have accurate RS and V information. Go for it. I also want to repeat a quote that Whig previously inserted above, under LEAD, because I think that some of this information should be a part of this article:

::As stated: "Pure water retains memory of particles once dissolved in it and thus can elicit similar biochemical responses in living organisms to what the original particles would have done."

::Is this claim an accurate paraphrase of the theory?

::“Such strongly critical or downright sarcastic or ironic stances do not appear entirely justified: the concept of the "memory of water" is no more than a metaphor denoting the hypothesis whereby the physicochemical properties of water can be modified by a solute and remain so for a certain period of time even in the absence of the solute itself. If this were true, biology and medicine would undergo not a revolution, but certainly a significant increase in knowledge and in the related applications. It is not a matter here of postulating an "entity" (memory) which may reside in the water, but of studying the physicochemical properties of water itself. In this sense, talking about memory is not so very different from talking about temperature, dielectric constants, viscosity, and other properties.

::An example may serve to clarify the concept here: if we take a little water and put it in the freezer, after a certain period of time it will freeze. On removing the water from the freezer, it will be observed that the block of ice, though now exposed to room temperature, will remain a block of ice for some time. Thus, there exists in water a property which enables it to "remember" for a certain amount of time that it has been kept in the freezer. For those who find this example self-evident, we can give another: if we take a tape coated with ferric hydroxide and subject it, as it is running, to a series of differences in potential in precise succession, changes in charge occur on the magnetic substrate; the tape will remember those changes for hundreds of years. It is not the memory of water, in this case, but the memory of iron, which consists in a particular form that the magnetic substrate assumes on the tape.”
::—Paolo Bellavite, M.D. and Andrea Signorini, M.D., The Emerging Science of Homeopathy: Complexity, Biodynamics, and Nanopharmacology, 2002, pp.68-69 -- I hope that we can put some of these insights into the article. ]<sup>]</sup> 17:49, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

==Mpemba effect==

I am unsure that the examples of ice or magnetic tape gives the right impression. However there is an example of memory of water that may be relevant; that is the Mpemba effect. Water 'remembers' that it has recently been hot and this makes it freeze faster than water that was recently only cold. There is plenty of VS for this and it is mentioned briefly at ]. On the surface (like other memory of water effects) this seems counter-intuitive and outrageously unlikely; How can hot water freeze faster than cold water, when hot water actually has to become cold before freezing? There are, in fact, some good and simple reasons why it can occur (I can provide if anyone is interested) but until these are pointed out and understood, then the very idea seems nonsense. This is a clear case where experiments have proved intuition very wrong. ] (]) 18:32, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

:Interesting! I too prefer evidence to logic any day. ]<sup>]</sup> 18:40, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

::We have an article on the ]. I added it to ''See also'' but this was removed by another editor, apparently we are not allowed to discuss any sense of water having memory other than in the context of Benveniste's own research here. This is why I think this article should either be merged or renamed. Memory of water is too broad a concept to be restricted to one person's experiments. &mdash;] (''']''') 20:32, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

:Thanks for adding the article, which I had overlooked (as I had for the Mpemba effect being such a good a 'memory of water' effect up until I replied to Dana). I believe it should be mentioned on this page as it fits in so well with much of the current thinking on the memory of water concept (i.e. a phenomenon down to unexpected solute and time effects), but with extra strong proof. I would like to put it back within a paragraph explaining this association. ] (]) 21:04, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

:: If you can find a V & RS that deals with (and connects) the Mpemba effect and "memory of water" (in the same article), then you might have something that can be used. We would need something that is more than speculation, but some real research on the subject, since anyone can speculate and that wouldn't be considered very "reliable". -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 00:30, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

:::Whig, there was previous consensus that the "memory of water" article is not just about the research on Benveniste. Heck, he didn't even coin the concept. This concept is way beyond one person...and it certainly seems that the Mpemba effect is one other body of evidence that supports the concept of memory of water. Why wouldn't it be a part of this article? ]<sup>]</sup> 01:14, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

:Fyslee, of course all the work on the Mpemba effect involves the memory of water. Water is 'remembering' whether it was hot or whether it was cold (in the recent past). There are many V & RS for this. None of them actually mention the phrase 'memory of water' but surely that bit is unimportant? ] (]) 08:40, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
::No. It's as simple as that. Unless you follow up on Fyslee's hint about finding a quality source that mentions this "idea" (yes, quality, not a fringe publication) it won't be in the article. You are stretching the use of the word "remembering" to a point that simply boggles the mind. This is a phenomena that occurs only under certain circumstances and is explainable by actual science. ] (]) 08:52, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

:Your point is absolutely key. I am only interested in explanations by actual science, and if I believed that this page was only for those phenomena that were not explainable then I would not be here; and if this is the consensus then I am off. To be absolutely clear, you are surely not suggesting that we may not have anything on this page that has a scientific explanation. Finally, I agree that the Mpemba (memory of water) phenomena occurs only under certain circumstances; these are when you compare the freezing point behaviour of hot and cold water (loads and loads of V and RS). ] (]) 09:14, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
::Nyet no memory effect required to explain what is going on there. Well not unless you are going to argue that momentium is a memory effect.] 10:07, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
:It is very important that editors check facts, especially where these are pointed out to them, see the references given in the ]. The Mpemba effect has nothing to do with momentum. Is there a V and RS source that states this? Many (all?) state otherwise. The papers certainly describe this effect in terms of how the history of the water affect its properties, which of course, is its 'memory' of this history. Also, it is a phenomenon that seems specific to water. ] (]) 15:01, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
::Err pretty much all the reasons given boil down to aspects of kentics and thus momentum. Are you trying to arge that momentium is memory?] 17:57, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
:No, momentum is not mentioned, nor is kinetics. What is mentioned are unexpected solute effects and their effect on supercooling. I think we are getting rather off topic here. ] (]) 18:20, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
::in the context of kentics yes. Basic physical chemistry.] 18:41, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
::: Memory involves cognition and intelligence, while history and the effects of previous events and contacts don't. Let's stop stretching "memory" and redefining it. That's what makes the whole concept of "memory of water" so absurd, because water has neither cognition nor intelligence. -- <i><b><font color="004000">]</font></b></i> / <b><font color="990099" size="1">]</font></b> 19:59, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
:::: Oh, well in that case water does not have memory. Did Benveniste believe that water was conscious? &mdash;] (''']''') 20:12, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
::My memory certainly involves cognition and intelligence (I continue to hope), but there are many other different dictionary definitions for 'memory' that do not include these, such as computer memory, ] and ]. ] (]) 20:55, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
:::Yes, and computer hard drives have memory in the ] sense of the word. &mdash;] (''']''') 21:06, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
:I wish to add the Mpemba effect as a 'memory of water' effect on the Article page. So far, the debate has wandered but the phenomena of hot water freezing before cold is a really good example of this and is widely accepted as real (if very surprising). Pablo Debenedetti, a physicist at Princeton University and a specialist in phase transitions of water, is happy to believe Mpemba's account. "I do not see any reason to doubt observations showing that under some circumstances hot water can freeze faster than cold water," he says in Philip Balls article on PhysicsWeb. Certainly David Auerbach wrote about the memory effect in his article on the Mpemba effect in Am. J. Phys. 63 (1995) 88, by describing a 'mechanism bringing memory into the system, something which has been considered a prerequisite for the effect'. The fact that we have some explanations for it that the majority of scientists can believe is no reason to keep it off. ] (]) 12:19, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
::Well, until you find a quality reliable source, ie a journal article in something with a high impact factor, claiming that the Mpemba effect is anything related to the memory of water, it would be pure Original Research on your part. The quote from Debenedetti comes no where close to relating the two concepts. No one here is denying that under certain circumstances that hot water will freeze faster than cold water. But you are absolutely stretching the word remembering to accommodate anything. If you are so sure that the two are related, I urge you to research it further and publish your findings in a high impact journal. ] (]) 19:55, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
::: I think we have an unresolved focus problem for this article - is it about all the weird stuff water does where not all of its properties are fully determined by the standard thermodynamic variables, or is it about the reported ability of water to take on and retain chemical properties of solutes? If the former, many of these phenomena seem already to have articles, though there are some nice results on shock vs. static pressure with varying degrees of ] and some modeling of what exactly happens to the molecules when normal ice melts that might could use a home. If the latter, as I think should be the case, it should be made clear that we are talking about the reported results of Benveniste and similar, and the science and non-science bits of the article should be clearly articulated. - ] ~(])]~ 22:09, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
::What is wrong with Am. J. Phys.? It is a V & RS. ] (]) 22:17, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
There is no indication that the Mpemba Effect has anything to do with water memory. This is an obvious case of ]. ] (]) 22:18, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
:I am wasting my time here. I cannot get any sensible responses. ] (]) 22:24, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

:: This article was mentioned above, but there was a typo in the citation, so here is a link: . Though I still think that we seem to be talking at cross purposes regarding the meaning of "memory" in this context, ''viz''. whether it encompasses all history-dependent effects not covered by a few simple scalars or whether it refers specifically to water somehow absorbing the chemical properties of anything dissolved in it. - ] ~(])]~ 23:07, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

== Citation needed == == Citation needed ==
The following introduction passage appears to contradict the main body of the article text. The following introduction passage appears to contradict the main body of the article text.

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Citation needed

The following introduction passage appears to contradict the main body of the article text.

However, while some double-blind studies, including Benveniste's, have claimed such an effect

Contrast with

However, Maddox noted that during the procedure the experimenters were aware of which test tubes originally contained the antibodies and which did not. A second experimental series was started with Maddox and his team in charge of the double-blinding; notebooks were photographed, the lab videotaped, and vials juggled and secretly coded. Randi went so far as to wrap the labels in tinfoil, seal them in an envelope, and then stick them on the ceiling so Benveniste and his colleagues could not read them. Although everyone was confident that the outcome would be the same, reportedly including the Maddox-led team, the effect immediately disappeared.

Please reconcile these contrasting assertions with appropriate citation. Durova 00:53, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

When Maddox and his "Nature" team came to the French lab, the Nature team insisted that the first 3 studies NOT be blinded. Benveniste initially objected because they always did their experiments blinded, but he relented. The 4th experiment was blinded (the person reading the basophil counts) AND it had a positive outcome (this fact is commonly ignored), but if you read the experiment, it is clear that this happened. Then, during the next 3 experiments, the person who pipetted the placebo and the homeopathic dilutions AND the person reading the basophils wereboth blinded, and these 3 experiments had negative outcomes. It should be noted that it is very common for allergy and immunology experiments to have a high percentage of negative outcomes (this is why they do a large number of experiments). Ultimately, of the 4 blinded experiments, 1 had a positive outcome. For some reason, skeptics and the media have only focused on the last 3 blinded trials, not all 4. Is that more clear? Everything that I said above is a part of the Nature rebuttal to the initial Benveniste experiments. DanaUllman 23:02, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
So, to distill all of that, the 2nd part which Durova noted is actually true. The experimenters were aware of which test tubes contained the antibodies and which did not. That is why people ignore the experiment that only had the basophil reader blinded, as it was not really a quality experiment. The trial with the positive response barely would pass as a blinded study. The first part probably stems from a misunderstanding of what a double-blind study entails. A failure to repeat the results on 3 actual double blinded tries indicates a problem. The whole water memory idea is rife with such claims of success on "double-blinded studies" but with no verification of said results upon further inquiry, ie Benveniste/Nature, Ennis/BBC. Baegis (talk) 00:00, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
The original Dayenas et al 1988 paper in Nature states 'We can affirm that (1) this activity was established under stringent experimental conditions, such as blind double-coded procedures involving six laboratories from four countries'. I do not see that Maddox's view of one laboratory's procedure during a day or two of disrupted procedures should be sufficient to counter this clear statement. Argue about other factors but not this. The Tutor (talk) 13:18, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
The fact that they couldn't replicate their studies while under the supervision of a third party is quite important to note. If you make a fantastic claim, but can't prove it consistently (and you throw away results?), someone has to ask, where's the beef? Baegis (talk) 19:16, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Baegis, you are on the money, it is important to note. But that has nothing to do with the claim concerning blinded trials. The Tutor (talk) 19:29, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Charges of attempted fraud and of poor lab practices

What about the evidence of fraud charges of attempted fraud and of poor lab practices in Benveniste's procedures that is reported in several V & RS, that should be mentioned in the article? Here's one more describing the role of Davenas and workers paid by Boiron. This ís only hinted at in the Jacques Benveniste article. -- Fyslee / talk 04:32, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

There was no evidence of fraud; only evidence of poor laboratory practice. Randi 'found that the sealed flap of the envelope had detached itself at a surprisingly straight angle when the scotch tape attaching the code to the ceiling was pulled away, but inspection of the aluminium foil allowed him to pronounce himself satisfied that the code had not been read.' This is proof only of a suspicious mind. Maddox made no mention of fraud in his Nature paper. The Tutor (talk) 11:39, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
You are correct and I have refactored my comments and the heading accordingly. The poor lab practices are very damning for everything Benveniste was doing at the time, basically invalidating the research he had been doing, and the involvement of Boiron as a significantly involved party is also suspicious. -- Fyslee / talk 17:26, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Lead#3

The Lead is now a complete mess with much repetition. The Tutor (talk) 09:47, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Now improved but reference to dilution is repeated. Is that necessary? The Tutor (talk) 14:33, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Edit war attack

I have noted that a number of reversions of my edit have occurred recently by anonymous editors. The text is now completely misleading and shows no recognition of the information in the references referred to. Is this is what you want for WP? The Tutor (talk) 13:53, 5 March 2008 (UTC) It is clear that those responsible have not read the papers concerned as the reasons for reversions were false and they were not prepared to bring any counter-evidence here. Their plan was clearly to avoid the 3RR rule by force of numbers, if indeed there was more than one of them. The papers in question include many instances where the memory of water effects last for periods of at least weeks, but then I do not suppose that they are interested in facts just in the sport of 'Homeopathy (and all things related) bashing'. I consider their behavior bullying, pure and simple. The Tutor (talk) 17:26, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Please stop attacking other editors. Thank you. Baegis (talk) 18:52, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Does this has a place in the article? --Area69 (talk) 22:09, 7 March 2008 (UTC)http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn3817-icy-claim-that-water-has-memory.html

No, it doesn't really. While it's a secondary source and much better than the Physica A link someone was pushing on another page, the experiment in question is of too poor quality to be included. There were already two detractors in the article plus the study was not blinded. Even the famed Martin Chaplin said he thought that the analysis was off base and he has published other thoughts on water memory. Baegis (talk) 22:26, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Very few studies in chemistry or physics are blinded. so that comment is out of place. The Tutor (talk) 22:35, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. If someone else, in the article, points it out, then blinding is an issue. Especially if you are trying to prove that water has memory. Baegis (talk) 22:45, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

And note who it was that was asking about blinding the study! Also I do not agree that such secondary sources are necessarily better than the primary paper, but perhaps you think it was much improved by the commentators expertise. The Tutor (talk) 23:02, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Secondary sources are nearly always better than a primary source. Primary sources are too open to interpretation by others and too close to the project/experiment/event at hand to critique objectively, especially in these areas. Baegis (talk) 23:15, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
I agree with The Tutor that it seems that editors have not read that special issue of the peer-review journal, HOMEOPATHY. This issue does present both experimental data and theoretical expositions on the memory of water issue (the research by Elia is of particular significance, and the "silica hypothesis" article provides a physicality to how homeopathic high potencies work...this is of interest to advocates and skeptics). Further, Rey's article was published was a highly RS journal, and the New Scientist article provides secondary source. As for the blinding issue, it is OR for someone to say that it is an "issue." We (editors) cannot make judgments one way or another. We have to rely upon where the study was published, and it was published in one of the most respected physics journals (end of story!). DanaUllman 13:23, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Dana, it was not published in "one of the most respected physics journals". Quite spreading these outright lies. I am getting fed up with you claiming that every single journal that has ever published an article that supports your views on homeopathy is somehow a highly respected journal and worthy of inclusion. Most of these journals exist in the middle of the pack or, more often than not, are at the very bottom of their field! Stop blowing smoke up our collective behinds regarding your opinion of these journals. Secondly, it is not OR for me to say blinding is an issue, especially considering Benveniste himself mentions it in the article. Even your normal go-to guy, Martin Chaplin, questions the results. Baegis (talk) 19:24, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Without commenting on this particular article or any other journals under discussion, the journal Physica A is well above WP:RS. "Respected" would not be a misnomer - probably it is shy of Physical Review or Journal of Physics, but by no means is it down in the unciteable doldrums. I would like to point out, however, that the Verifiability policy explicitly includes as criteria the work itself and its creator, not just the publisher. - Eldereft ~(s)talk~ 23:15, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I have stated my understanding above that the statement 'no firm conclusions as to any cause, or indeed any effects loosely termed "memory of water" that could persist for the time required for homeopathy' is not borne out by the literature. I added a well-founded reference to the page with the explanatory text 'Light scattering studies have shown that simple electrolytes and non-electrolytes, such as sodium chloride, glucose and ethanol, can form large-scale supramolecular structures over periods of up to a year.(Marián Sedlák, Large-Scale Supramolecular Structure in Solutions of Low Molar Mass Compounds and Mixtures of Liquids: II. Kinetics of the Formation and Long-Time Stability, J. Phys. Chem. B, 110 (2006)4339-4345)' to refute this but his has now been reverted by ScienceApologist. It is wrong to revert good science support for a view just because the opposite view is held and without any RS. Clearly a good V & RS that makes a case for simple aqueous solutions changing over a period of a year is of relevance to this point and balances the revert statement, referred to. The Tutor (talk) 14:58, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

We can only continue to entertain the inclusions of the synthetic original research of Martin Chaplin for so long. Either publish your ideas in a mainstream journal or stop bothering us. ScienceApologist (talk) 15:02, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

This reference describes a clear long-term memory of water effect in a mainstream V & RS. The Tutor (talk) 15:07, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Judging from the abstract, that J Chem Phys B has absolutely nothing to do with water memory, as the study dealt with actual solutions, containing actual solvents molecules. Yilloslime (t) 18:21, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

I am certainly not misrepresenting the paper. The memory of water clearly involves actual solutions containing actual solute molecules. This page is not about imaginary solutions. Also your reference link was not to the paper I gave. Here is the correct one. The Tutor (talk) 18:28, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry I had the wrong abstract, thanks for correcting me. Still, my point stands: water memory is about "solutions" which don't contain any actual solutes, but instead contain a small amount of water molecules that were once in contact with an even smaller number of water molecules, which were once in contact with an yet smaller number of water molecules, etc....which were once in contact with some solute molecules. In contrast, the paper you cite is a study of solutions of water that contain solute molecules. Yilloslime (t) 19:18, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
I've gone ahead and removed the reference to this paper as well: Ohmura R, Ogawa M, Yasuoka K, Mori YH (2003). "Statistical study of clathrate–hydrate nucleation in a water/hydrochlorofluorocarbon system: search for the nature of the ‘‘memory effect’’." J. Phys. Chem. B 107: 5289-5293.  That this paper has any bearing on water memory is, at best, WP:SYN. Furthermore, the samples in the described experiments are not claimed to be without dissolved solutes, and the time-scale for the clathrate "memory" effect appears to be much short than that required to explain "water memory" in the context of homeopathy. Yilloslime (t) 19:37, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
It is a clear memory' effect, but in that case you must also remove the paragraph 'Research published in 2005 on hydrogen bond network dynamics in water measured that "liquid water essentially loses the memory of persistent correlations in its structure" within 50 femtoseconds. This 'memory loss' was actually the loss of the OH stretching excitation of individual water molecules due to "relaxation channels and configurational-averaging mechanisms that are absent in other liquids".' At this rate there will be nothing left on this page and we can all go home. The Tutor (talk) 19:51, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

You have hit one of the problems with this page and therefore a major problem for us editors. It has a split personality and does not know whether it is just to do with Benveniste or is it to discuss a wider range of rather strange phenomena of water (including the Benveniste stuff) whereby the history of a sample of water determines its properties (i.e. water memory). At the moment there is quite a lot of the more general stuff, which is where I hope to contribute this paper. The Tutor (talk) 19:41, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

For the purposes of this article, "Water memory is a scientifically unsupported theory which holds that water is capable of retaining a memory of particles once dissolved in it, even after being diluted so much that the chance of even one molecule remaining in the quantity being used is minuscule.". While I agree that "a wider range of rather strange phenomena of water" exist (e.g. Mpemba effect), only material materially related to whether or not "water is capable of retaining a memory of particles once dissolved in it" should be included in this article. Thus, the work of the like of Benveniste, Ennis, and Rey is all fair game, as is work demonstrating the implausibility of the effect, e.g. the "Ultrafast memory loss and energy redistribution in the hydrogen bond network of liquid H2O" paper. Papers discussing the behavior of water with dissolved solutes (sorry about the redundant language, sorry), or clathrates formation seem off topic unless the the papers themselves or reliable secondary sources argue that the have bearing on water memory. Yilloslime (t) 20:21, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Well that certainly gives the POV of the article. The Tutor (talk) 20:54, 9 March 2008 (UTC) In fact the very paper that indisputably proves that "water is capable of retaining a memory of particles once dissolved in it" is the one you have just deleted because you made a POV on timescales. What timescale do you believe is important? And is there any V & RS to back it up? The Tutor (talk) 21:13, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

What paper are you talking about? Yilloslime (t) 21:15, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Ohmura's. The Tutor (talk) 21:17, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
That paper is about clathrates and makes no claim about solute-free systems remembering former solutes. I think the confusion is over Ohmura et al's use of the term "memory." They're not using it mean "memory" in the sense of "water...retaining a memory of particles once dissolved in it." Yilloslime (t) 21:24, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Clathrates are crystalline particles. They are using it in exactly that sense. The Tutor (talk) 21:28, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm not going to waste my time explaining chemistry to you, but the paper is definitely not claiming that solute-free systems can remember former solutes. Yilloslime (t) 21:34, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) I actually provisionally agree with The Tutor on the inclusion of the observation that clathrate hydrate microcrystals influence recrystallization time/temperature/host-guest structure. This is generally referred to in the literature as a "memory effect", and I do not know of anywhere better on WP for such a discussion. However, as this effect has no intersection with dilution and succussion or homeopathy, the article would need to be rewritten to reflect a revised focus. - Eldereft ~(s)talk~ 23:10, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

The problem is that this article is about a different kind of hypothetical "memory effect," one dealing the retention of information about or properties of solutes that have been diluted out of the final "solution" in question. Its a different beast than the clathrate memory effect, and to discuss them side by side in the same article will only muddle, rather than clarify, people's understanding of these distinct, and unrelated, though similarly named, concepts. If anything, this article needs a disclaimer warning people that the concept known as "water memory" that is invoked as a mechanistic explanation for homeopathy should not be confused with the phenomena known as "memory effects" sometimes observed in clathrate (re)crystallization. Yilloslime (t) 23:28, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

That seems a good way forward; there could be a number of similar phenomena excluded with the right phrasing. The Tutor (talk) 08:09, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

On second thought, including clathrate hydrate formation "memory effect" would not only be way off base for this article in its present form, it would be irrelevant to any form. There is not really even necessarily enough linguistic similarity to justify even a disambiguation notice, and physically the reported observations are completely independent. - Eldereft ~(s)talk~ 01:23, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

textbooks

To drive home the point that water memory isn't real, would it be overkill or violate WP:OR to point out that no chemistry or physics textbooks mention it? Yilloslime (t) 04:41, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, I think its a very valid point, but it is more than likely bordering on OR. The article should make clear how "out there" this whole concept is. Baegis (talk) 22:26, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Yes, it borders on OR, but is also an easily falsifiable statement. Anyone should be able to debunk it by providing a source. -- Fyslee / talk 05:27, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
But it's impossible to prove a negative, because there might be a textbook that does. There are textbooks that state Evolution is an unproven theory. I'll bet there's some chemistry textbook that states magical homeopathic potions work. So unless there is a reliable and verified source that says "I've looked at almost every textbook out there, and none mention water memory" it is absolutely OR. OrangeMarlin 07:53, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Ya, thats kinda what I figured....Yilloslime (t) 20:25, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

statistical significance

Under Water memory#More recent experiments there are (off and on) words describing statistical significance (e.g. "highly significant", "marginal"). Would it be possible for someone with access to the relevant papers to label these experiments with proper p values instead of less precise and potentially loaded adjectives? - Eldereft ~(s)talk~ 22:23, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Eldereft, I forgot to look at that article today (I have a copy at my office). Although my memory is that the p-value was 0.0001, though I may have put an extra "0" into it, but in ANY case, it is not "marginal" and it is "highly significant." My memory is that this p-value was in the "Oooooh my god" significant level. When I get this info substantiated, I will make the change and hope for your support in whatever I find. DanaUllman 05:54, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Thank you - I think that fair and precise treatment of any article we decide to include is a point on which we both can agree. Either of those p values would support saying "highly significant", and I support reporting whatever value the authors obtained. There were actually three articles whose statistical significance I noticed being described (as I said - off and on since as of this writing only one of them is) without numeric validation - Belon (1999), Ennis (2001), and Belon (2004), currently references 14-16, respectively. If you happen to have any of the others, those would be great to include too. - Eldereft ~(s)talk~ 06:47, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
I have them all. The 1999 study had four labs reporting a total of 772 data points were evaluated testing various potencies of histamine (15, 16, 17, 18, 19), with a P value < 0.0001. The 2001 tested for inhibitation of CD63 expression after incubation with histamine at 2X, 4X, 6X, 14X, 18X, 20X, and 26X. P=0.005. The 2X, 4X, 26X doses had a P value of 0.01; the 20X dose had a P value of 0.001. It should be noted that heating of the potencies of 2X, 30X, and 36X caused a significant decreate in the inhibitory effects of these histamine dilutions on basophil activiation, with P=0.039, P=0.018, P=0.0064 respectively. The 2004 study was also a multi-center study (4 labs) that evaluated a total of 2,706 data points, testing potencies from 28X, 30X, 32X, 34X, and 36X, all of which had a P=0.001. It should be noted that 1 of the 4 laboratories didn't obtain significant results. Taken together, it would certainly seem that these results should be described as "highly significant." The additional evidence of the results inhibited by heat is of special interest, and several researchers have found this effect from heat and/or from certain electromagnetic fields (microwaves and even cell phones). If you have any additional questions, please just ask. I would prefer if you wrote this up since some editors tend to have an "allergy" to my contributions. DanaUllman 00:07, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't oppose clarifying what is meant by the words "highly significant", "marginal", etc, in the article, but I would suggest that we leave the actual P-values out. Going into gory details about p-values is not WP is all about. Instead, instead of "highly significant" why don't we just say "highly statistically significant," wording which won't confuse or distract readers who don't know or care about statistics, but will clear imply to mathematically inclined readers that the p-values are pretty small. Yilloslime (t) 00:17, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Fine with me. By the way, I love collaboration. DanaUllman 00:39, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
DanaUllman, thank you for looking this up, it is appreciated. I quite understand your point about emphasizing that consensus has been reached, and will be happy to write this up as soon as the present discussion has been resolved. One more quick question - could you confirm for me that all of those values are given as p equals, not p less than? It might also be that the nice round numbers come from rounding, but sometimes significance is reported as a maximum (the results were of at least such-and-such significance).
Yilloslime, I really think that the p-values (or other measure of statistical significance) should be included in the article, along with some indication of effect size, especially for articles not freely available on the web. I can, however, see the point to not cluttering the article to the extent that it interferes with the flow of presentation (cannot see the forest for the trees).
This, as I see it, leaves us with three options: leave the plain language in the body and add the results of more detailed analysis to the footnotes; dramatically expand Water memory#More recent experiments to include both an overview and a detailed treatment and comparison of the relevant papers; or drop it all in a summary table of evidence. I am at the moment leaning towards the third option, as it is easy to ignore or peruse depending on level of interest and is easily extensible; besides, Misplaced Pages has some nice table functionality that I have not had a chance to play with yet. - Eldereft ~(s)talk~ 01:11, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
In addition to my concerns about understandability and readability, I'm a little concerned about about WP:WEIGHT as well. By going into the statistical details of these papers, I fear we're giving them more WP:WEIGHT than they deserve. I still favor simply noting that these studies have yielded statistically significant or marginal results, over going into the details, either in prose or in a table. Yilloslime (t) 01:31, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Eldereft, first, to clarify the P value info: My understanding P values are that when there is the < (less than) sign, it means that the P value was rounded off to that value and that it was less than that. As such, it is reasonable, at the values listed above, to write them as = or <. I like your 3rd option too. It sounds more visually appealing and will provide useful detail for the reader. As for Yilloslime's comment, I am confused why he would say (or even suggest) that these values are somehow "marginal." I assume that if you are not going to put the P values, you would have to describe the research results as "highly significant." DanaUllman 18:38, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry if my previous comment wasn't clear. I was not saying that the P-values quoted by Dana are marginal. I was referring to Eldereft's original question that started this thread, where s/he said "Under Water memory#More recent experiments there are (off and on) words describing statistical significance (e.g. "highly significant", "marginal")". Yilloslime (t) 18:56, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanx for that clarification Yilloslime. I'm glad that I AGF...and that you showed it back. Communication sometimes takes effort, but it is worth it. For further clarification, does anyone know at what level something becomes "highly significant"? Is it .01 or .001? DanaUllman 03:25, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Use of the journal Homeopathy

This journal looks to be a fringe publication. At the moment the article cites a number of articles from it in a paragraph in the "recent experiments" section. I think the amount of space given is undue weight given the this journals absence of scientific weight. I think the conclusion they report can be summarised in a much more concise manner, so as the report the beliefs of homeopaths on the subject. Jefffire (talk) 19:27, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree that it is fringe, and we should be careful to not give it undue weight. However, the way it is currently being used in the article is fine, I think, because it is clearly identified as a journal that aims to promote homeopathy. Yilloslime (t) 20:58, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

This particular issue of Homeopathy is written by a number of scientists from different backgrounds, including a sceptic and several who are not connected with the homeopathic community. It gives a good overview of current thoughts concerning the 'memory of water' phenomena. Leaving it out would certainly be ill-advised, if WP wishes to present an encyclopedia. One must also consider the difficulties involved in publishing in this area in other journals, the fact that it is a peer reviewed journal and the particular articles it contains. It is certainly not a fringe publication for this area of science. The Tutor (talk) 20:14, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Jefffire and Yilloslime. It is only really a good source for the opinions of homeopaths. Anyone commenting here about this journal should declare a conflict of interest, if they have any. As examples, having contributed to issues in question or being the editor of the issue, &c, would count as a conflict of interest that should be declared.__91.121.64.135 (talk) 21:24, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Skeptic? You mean a skeptic of real science writes in a journal that promotes homeopathy? I'm not shocked, but that confirms to me it's a fringe publication. OrangeMarlin 22:38, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't see any call for it to be entirely excluded as a source, unless it's marginal in the world of homeopathy as well as science. Jefffire (talk) 22:57, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I wish to assume good faith, but I also have a sneaking suspicion that some (maybe many) of the above editors are neither subscribers or readers of this journal. This is a peer-review journal, and its editorial board includes an international group of physicians, scientists, professors, and even skeptics (Ernst, amongst others). This journal is not fringe. It may be consider "cutting edge" of medicine and pharmacology. DanaUllman 05:32, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
None of that make it mainstream. Jefffire (talk) 08:17, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Once again this skeptic word. I can't see how bragging about editors that are skeptical of science are going to convince individuals who prefer and accept scientific reasoning for medicine. OrangeMarlin 08:45, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
The sceptics mentioned are sceptics of the 'homeopathy' area not sceptics of the science area. The Tutor (talk) 09:57, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
They may very well be, but adding "sceptics" to an editorial board does not automatically make a journal a respected and authoritative source. It takes many years of reputation building through impeccable standards. Jefffire (talk) 12:41, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Elia's Important Research

In the light of the important research published by Elia, I recommend that we significantly change the statement at present, "However, the concepts discussed in this issue are very different to those proposed by Benveniste, and the issue came to no firm conclusions as to any cause, or any effects loosely termed "memory of water" that could persist for the time required for homeopathy or for experiments like Benveniste's." I recommend that editors read his work at and at . Elia and his chemist colleagues have shown that the thermodynamics of water is changed when a substance is placed in double-distilled water and when that water undergoes the typical homeopathic pharmaceutical process of dilution and succussion (vigorous shaking). Further, using well-established physicochemical techniques: flux calorimetry, conductometry, pHmetry and galvanic cell electrodes potential, they have unexpectedly found that the physicochemical parameters evolve in time. Please note that Elia has published numerous studies in leading scientific journals and that he has summarized these various studies in the July 2007 article in Homeopathy (the journal published by Elsevier). DanaUllman 04:19, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Having some of your papers published in "leading scientific journals" by no means gives credibility to everything you publish. Regardless, what are your actual proposed changes? I just see a redirect for us to read some dubious research. Plus, you need a subscription to access the first article. Baegis (talk) 05:06, 17 March 2008 (UTC)