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Latest anon edit:

"One author of note who focused his writings on Jack the Ripper in the late 19th Century was Guy B.H. Logan."

Just to say that I've never heard of Guy B.H. Logan and a google search of the name yields no results. Anyone else have a clue to this enigma? Colin4C (talk) 19:11, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

No cite means no inclusion. This article has seen enough fallout that it is clear that without citation and consensus, no contentious edit will be added tot he article. I would suggest that you invite the editor who added it here to discuss the citation. - Arcayne () 23:08, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Very simple and obvious edits being removed for no reason?

One more time (though it has been explained and ignored by Arcayne more than once already in his rush to blind revert any edits I ever make to this article):

• The site jack-the-ripper.org is nothing but spam. It has no encyclopedic content. If you go to the victims page, for example, all it has is photos and names saying they died. The site has SIGNIFICANTLY less information than this very article. WP:EL rules are pretty clear on this, we don't just add links to add links, they have to have encyclopedic purposes, and this site is primarily Google adfarming with info copied and pasted apparently from this very page.

• The Fairy Fay section needs a cite for who claims it was based upon the song. There is no reason to link to the lyrics of the song, as that provides no source for saying anyone claimed that that's where the alleged victim's name came from. When I add a tag request WHO said it, either provide text saying exactly who did or leave it, don't just remove it in a blind revert.

Bottom line here is I have just as much rights here to make edits as anyone (and if WIkipedia were set up to give more weight to people with demonstrated knowledge on a topic, much more), and a calculated and demonstrated history of blind reverting all of my changes simply will not fly. He's adding spam and removing calls for cites, for crying out loud. Can't get more basic than that. DreamGuy (talk) 16:22, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Can I suggest that you keep strictly to the article content and can I also suggest that everyone gives each other the consideration they all deserve. As we are all aware, these revert wars just end with the article being protected. Kbthompson (talk) 16:40, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I just got here. I was out blind-reverting lotsa articles and misinterpreting Wiki policy to a bunch of reporters while running over a busload of nuns and cute little puppies. Gosh, destroying Misplaced Pages single-handedly is hard work. :P

I have no problem with DG editing in this article, so long as he somehow learns the value and rules of seeking consensus with his edits. Deleting information with but a speculative edit summary does not constitute discussion. Deleting precisely the same information after it has been restored less than two weeks later is another example of seeming contempt for his editors (or admins, if his User Talk page is to be considered a true viewing of his unhappiness). In short, it is unreasonable to expect editors to tolerate edits from someone who has all the social graces of someone raised by wolves. Therefore, discussion is key. It doesn't matter if he is the DaVinci of the subject, his weight of contribution is going to always be weighed against his ability to work well with others. Its a community; if he wants to be a luminary, he needs to seek another venue.

The Jack-the-Ripper.org site is not a spam site. DG's seeming disallowance of this particular site seems less than genuine, especially when one considers that he admins a JTR site, and we neither have no way to know if the site in question takes away visitors to his site nor do we know if he personally endorses hs own site. In fact, we do not know what site he admns for; that said, it would seem prudent for him to recuse himself on matters concerning external JTR links, unless he is willing and prepared to disclose what site he actually admins on. He doesn't have to do it here. As Kbthompson is in fact an admn, he needs only disclose it to him, and Kbt can evaluate the legitimacy of DG's contention with the contested site. - Arcayne () 17:35, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

For the record, I don't "admin" a JTR site, and these sorts of attacks are just more of the nonsense Arcayne is known for: bad faith, blind reverts and the assumption of wrongdoing because of personal bias. This also seems to be a particularly bad faith claim coming from someone he had previously argued that Colin's edits should take precedence because he supposedly has written for the field. No evidence of Colin having written anything or being respected or so forth has been demonstrated, and if Arcayne were interested in fair dealings instead of just attacks he should have asked Colin what his biases were. DreamGuy (talk) 20:07, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Also for the record, the claim it is unreasonable to expect editors to tolerate edits from someone who has all the social graces of someone raised by wolves is especially ludicrous coming from Arcayne. DreamGuy (talk) 20:09, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

If everyone stuck to the article and its content, life would be a lot more pleasant for everyone. All parties, just be civil and stick to the point. Kbthompson (talk) 17:48, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

ps www.jack-the-ripper.org doesn't strike me as particularly authoritative. If you can find another reference, that would be better. Kbthompson (talk) 17:51, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

pps OK, an external link, not a reference. I don't see ads, but then I block 'em. It should be fine, let readers make up their own minds. Kbthompson (talk) 17:55, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

It isn't a question about making up their own minds, it's a question of following Misplaced Pages policies. Misplaced Pages:External links is pretty clear on this issue. We don't link to things willy nilly, they have to have an encyclopedic purpose. Being added by someone for self-promotional purposes (added by an anon IP as only edit), having more ads than content, not having any more information that the article itself already has are all reasons which on their own would mean it shouldn't be here. Put them all together and there's no justification for keeping it here. Please start following the policies you claim you want to follow instead of just deciding to oppose anything I do, no matter how obvious it is. DreamGuy (talk) 20:07, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, you are not the sole authority in determining what sources are good and which aren't We are, and the consensus thus far is to allow the reader to evaluate the strength of the website themselves EL is clear on a great many things, but it requires someone who can interpret the rule correctly; in order to use it effectively. Jack-The-Ripper is just as flawed as the other sites (one of which you have previously claimed to web-admin for - which seems to represent a significant conflict of interest since you haven't declared your special interest); all have ad space, and all have accurate and inaccurate (or speculative) information. We either allow them or we don't. EL is pretty clear on that, too. Both links follow current policies.It doesn't matter if an anon added it. Were that anon a sock-puppet, for example, then the edit would matter. Are you contending that the anon was a sock, DreamGuy?

Allow me to restate the question, DreamGuy, as I might have the titling wrong. Do you or do you not work in some capacity for a JTR website? - Arcayne () 20:21, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Funny how you pretend that my doing anything in the field is supposedly a bad thing while Colin claiming to have done something means you support him. First off, you should welcome people with actual expertise in the field and not try to run them off. Second, I never said I was an admin of any site, so I don't know where you came up with that. Third, anybody who is anyone in the field could be construed as "work in some capacity" for a website.... that would be thousands of people all told. Fourth, why aren't you loudly demanding that Colin not be allowed to edit, since you claim he is some sort of expert (which I sincerely doubt, based upon the content of his edits and comments over the years). All of my edits here have always been done following Misplaced Pages policies, including conflict of interest policies. Most importantly, the link in question does not come ANYWHERE CLOSE to following EL policy, which you'd have to admit if you actually read the thing instead of just blind revert anything I do. Why is it that you have not let a single edit of mine go by without blind reverting it for more than six months... even the ones you later were forced to admit on the talk page that you agreed with but only removed because you don't like me? You've got a serious problem here, and all your wikilawyering and flailing around and denial won't fix it. DreamGuy (talk) 20:34, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

That is not what I asked, DG: do you work in any capacity for a JTR-type website beyond occasional user contribution? If so, you should disclose who that website is - if it is a cited source, you need to stay the hell away from defending it or criticizing others. It seems an easy question to answer yes or no to, without slipping into semantics. As for never admitting that you work/do work for a JTR website, are you really, really sure you don't want to retract that statement? There are enough folk who know you do work at one.

Secondly, the reason we don't give Colin as much of a hard time is that he is polite and is willing to work with others to find both consensus and sometimes compromise. Additionally, his block log is empty, so he's never been blocked for 3RR, gaming the system, edit-warring and whatnot. Were he uncivil and rude, he would likely find the Bucket o' Good Faith to be about as empty as you are finding it now. As it is, he doesn't use any Essjay crap to push his viewpoints through.

Now, if you want to discuss why you think the link doesn't follow EL policy, we can do that. You need to prve it doesn't, and we need to be able to agree that it doesn't. Its how we do things here. - Arcayne () 20:46, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Colin certainly is not polite, nor is he willing to work with others to resolve any disputes... we just have a bunch of people who have decided to gang up and support each other's edits despite the fact that they very clearly violate policies. I think what we need to finally do here is get some new blood: people with a clue both about the topic and, preferably, how Misplaced Pages is supposed to work. Because the people who don't even pretend to care about either have taken over, and it's just sad. DreamGuy (talk) 19:20, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

DG, you haven't ever shown how the edits are violating policy. You have just stated they do without backing that statement up with any reasoning. Misplaced Pages's guidelines and policies are not concrete, so a simple statement that edits violate them isn't enough. And it would help a lot if you--and everyone else--would refrain from making major changes to the article while this discussion is ongoing. If you really want to work with other editors, discussion (minus the comments on other editors) is the first place to start. --clpo13_(talk) 19:58, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

It's been shown. If you refuse to read the policy and refuse to read my explanation, or if you do read both and refuse to see how utterly obvious it is, that's your issue, that doesn;t mean I haven't "shown" it. DreamGuy (talk) 01:57, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Just to say that, as tragic crocodile tears are a drip-drip-dripping and threatening to deluge the immediate cyber-vicinity, that I for one have a clue about the topic and the wikipedia. If you look at the edit history you will see that I was the first editor on this article to include the absolutely basic information about where the bodies of the victims were found. This had apparantly not seemed worthy of mention by editors in the previous 4 years the article had been in existence, which is sad...snivel.... Colin4C (talk) 22:33, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, OK. That sure shows a lot. Probably not what you thought it would though. DreamGuy (talk) 01:57, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree with DG on the "Fairy Fay" thing. I've never come across any suggestion that the name comes from the song, and if someone wants to make such, then they should provide a source. A link to the lyrics is not a source--the fact that the song exists is not evidence that the claim is true. revmagpie

From Richard Jones.

I sincerely apologise if I offended you in any way by posting a link to my site, but please could I stress that my site www.jack-the-ripper.org is not spam, nor is intended as spam. I am a ripper historian, and have been for over 25 years. I have in fact published several books on JTR, as well as creating a documentary dvd which has been well reviewed on Casebook.

My site is most certainly not a cut and paste of this "very article" but is the beginning of what I hope will be an online resource concerning the Jack the Ripper crimes. I admit the victims page lists the victims, as this page does, but that is because they were the victims of Jack the Ripper. However, they all link through to a far more detailed synopsis of each one of the killings, as well as looking at the wider context of the murders.

The google ads are simply a way of funding the photographs on the site, all of which were acquired or taken by myself or by Sean East. Few of them appear in this article and those that do are victim photographs that we actually took in Scotland Yard's Crime Museum.

The sections on the Common Lodging Houses, Prostitution in 1888, the Police Officers on the case are all original as indeed are all the sections on the site.

Once again I do apologise for any offence that I might have caused and assure you that I am in no way attempting to spam, but am trying to create a valuable resource. It is very much in its early stages and a certain amount of trial and error is inevitable.

Best of Wishes

Richard Jones —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.21.172.38 (talk) 09:30, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Mr Jones, to begin with, you have nothing to apologize for. Your posting of the link without hamming it up here in the Discussion page (or tearing down another link) is to be commended. Also to be commended is your coming forward to explain more about the site. In fact, on behalf of most of my fellow editors, i apologize if you felt insulted by having your website characterized as spam. Sometimes online, there is a tendency by some contributors to act like bulls in a china shop, gaining imaginary courage from the relative anonymity of posting here in Misplaced Pages. Don't take it seriously. And please, feel free to contribute to the article as you will - someone interested in the subject matter for over 25 years cannot hurt the article at all.

I would encourage you to set up an account at Misplaced Pages (not using your real name, of course) and begin contributing. This allows for your good edits to accumulate and your reputation as a solid editor to grow. If you need any assistance in getting started, please do not hesitate to drop me a line. Welcome to Misplaced Pages. - Arcayne () 16:54, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

To the contrary, if Richard Jones would take a look at WP:COI and WP:SPAM he would find that adding a link to his site here is absolutely improper. Regardless of whether he is capable of writing good content or not (his book was pretty decent), that does not excuse linking to a site with very basic information of less content than this very article. Now, certainly, there are certain pages he has written that might be worth sourcing... the page he has on one of his many sites with is quite good... but this guy is making money off his tours and feeding people to a secondary site for commercial purposes. DreamGuy (talk) 01:57, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

The Channel Five paragraph

What an active article.

Anyway, I think the Channel Five paragraph should be removed:

On November 20, 2006, the British television channel Five released an E-FIT-generated photo illustration showing what the researchers affiliated with the documentary believe the serial killer may have looked like...

I don't think this is notable. In the long history of Jack the Ripper speculation, one particular 3D sketch created by one particular TV show surely doesn't mark any actual advance forward in identifying Jack the Ripper, the silly policeman's quote notwithstanding. The "Computer Enhanced!!" aspect of the 3D sketch is meaningless. Tempshill (talk) 21:16, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I noted this before. Your actual contention is that it is inaccurate. That a tv special was made, a sketch created and silly statements issued by policemen are all notable. Again, the threshold for inclusion is citability, not truth. I would recommend that you find info specifically characterizes the television program as bollocks (or whatever), and we can provide balanced info. - Arcayne () 00:17, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Don't try to tell him what his contention is. I also don't think it was notable. The fact that it was bollocks was already included, but that's really not enough in this case because even bringing it up unfairly biases people toward thinking it has any credibility at all in the field, and it doesn't. It was just a cheap gimmick for a documentary. DreamGuy (talk) 19:17, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I have restored the paragraph. It was referenced and NPOV, giving the pros and cons of the proposed identification. Not the definitive answer to the mystery of JTR's identity, I grant you, but that shouldn't be the criterion of inclusion here. Colin4C (talk) 13:12, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

You should go look up WP:UNDUE weight rules for the exact criteria. Even mentioning something so ridiculous gives it more attention than it deserves. The image has no historical or factual basis. It was created as part of a publicity campaign for a documentary. We have notability and NPOV rules here, and both are majorly violated by wasting any time on that. DreamGuy (talk) 01:48, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. We aren't in the business of biasing people one way or the other, and we aren't going to disinclude info because it happens to include all the trappings of tv. As well, we aren't her to play elitist parlor games; all have equal standings in the eyes of Misplaced Pages, Ripperologist or not, professor or not, money or not. Let's avoid that altogether, as it will only lead to furthr unpleasantness. - Arcayne () 16:37, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, every time you put it back you are, in fact, in the business of "biasing" people. And, frankly, no, not everyone has equal standings as far as the policies of Misplaced Pages are concerned. If you don't follow them, you aren't contributing. And, frankly, considering that you tried to claim Colin's edits had to stay because he was allegedly "published" in the field (which again is extremely doubtful, based upon his edit history here), you were the one preaching elitism. I am preaching Misplaced Pages policies and making an encyclopedia. DreamGuy (talk) 01:48, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

DreamGuy is continuing to remove this paragraph, as well as the jack-the-ripper.org site. I've requested that he discuss it here, but he appears to be ignoring me, as my first request was on the 11th and his most recent edit removed the exact same content. Still no reasons given, though. --clpo13_(talk) 22:48, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Let's give him the chance to wise up and approach the discussion. No one is going to get tired of reverting his undiscussed non-consensus edits, so he will either edit his way into either an RfC/UC or AN/I or an eventual topic ban. So long as we follow the protocol for dealing with disruptive editing (and not be goaded into reciprocal bad behavior, which would only distract admins from a highlighting of the DG's pattern of behavior), the problem will more or less get resolved. Stay cool, and simply report him if it gets to be more than 'a flea on the dog' to coin a phrase. - Arcayne () 23:03, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. I've made the mistake of edit warring with DreamGuy, which resulted in admins ignoring his tendentious edits and focusing on me. Following the rules is always a good suggestion. --clpo13_(talk) 23:27, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Clpo13 claimed "Still no reasons given, though."? Hello, reasons were given. The fact that you and a couple of others simply ignore them doesn't mean they weren't given. DreamGuy (talk) 01:42, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Where were these reasons, then? I can't ignore something if I can't find it. --clpo13_(talk) 01:44, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

If you can't find it then you clearly have not even looked. The difference between that and ignoring it outright is virtually nonexistent. DreamGuy (talk) 04:22, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

For the sake of coherence, it'd probably be best to limit this discussion to the section below, since it's on the same topic. --clpo13_(talk) 04:29, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Museum in Docklands

From 15 May, the Museum in Docklands is mounting an exhibition of the original (Scotland Yard) evidence in the case, from the National Archives. Kbthompson (talk) 14:46, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

But will they will be selling Ripper T shirts and souvenir mugs? Worth a look I guess - though no doubt there will be one or two dodgy looking Ripperologists hanging about the building trying to entice one into completely futile arguments... Colin4C (talk) 15:50, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

There you go, then - quisque pro omnibus.  ;) - Arcayne () 16:29, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Nah, I'd probably take the train ... 8^) Kbthompson (talk) 17:24, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Gah, punishment - surely a product of an English education...- Arcayne () 17:32, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Apparantly a new book entitled 'Jack the Ripper and the East End' is being published in association with exhibition: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Jack-Ripper-East-David-Spence/dp/0701182474/ref=sr_1_43?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1205187087&sr=8-43 Colin4C (talk) 22:16, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Edit warring again!

Can I remind everyone that it not good to edit war - that just gets the page protected so no-one can edit it. Can I also remind people to discuss changes. Those particular changes appear to have reached some kind of consensus for inclusion - that's only amongst five-six people, but bullying reverts don't get anyone anywhere - so, talk about it before taking them out. Oh, and remember 3RR! Kbthompson (talk) 16:00, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. - Arcayne () 20:57, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, that's it. I'm not touching the article again, but DreamGuy reverted to his preferred version once more without discussing it. If someone else wants to talk to him, feel free, but I'm not going to get into a tussle with him (or anyone) so long as my RfA is going on. I did notify him of the discussion, however, as a courtesy. --clpo13_(talk) 01:28, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually, the people blind reverting me would be the only group engaged in "bullying reverts". And the problem is, it has been talked about, with very clear links to the policies in question, but those are ignored. We can't ignore Misplaced Pages policy just because a gang of people who do not understand policies or the topic this article is supposed to cover decide their main strategy is to blind revert every edit I make. This isn't making an encyclopedia, this is just sheer gaming the system by trying to fake a consensus -- a real consensus looks at the edits, compares policies, and makes an informed decision. There has not even been the slightest attempt to do that from certain people in the last six months or more. People seem to be treating this more like some online game instead of a serious attempt at making an encyclopedia. DreamGuy (talk) 01:40, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

If there has been discussion before, would you care to link to it or provide diffs? Also, consensus can change over time, and policies are not set in stone. That said, what policies are being violated? --clpo13_(talk) 01:42, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Can you not even look at the talk above? There's hardly anything on this page. Asking me to provide diffs to show something that's easily visible on the very page you are asking for it strikes me as quite peculiar. DreamGuy (talk) 04:16, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

So when you say "it has been talked about before", you're referring to discussion not even a month old? That discussion never ended. This is a continuation of it. No consensus has been reached recently. --clpo13_(talk) 04:19, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

With respect, Cipo is right here, Dreamguy. If you want the edit you keep insisting upon, convince us of your viewpoint. After you are reverted once, youneed to realize that edit summaries- and snippy ones at that - are not going to get you the results you are seeking. In fact, reverting without discussion would eventually have some negative repercussions for you.

Consensus is not a static quality, unless the same majority remains unconvinced of the minority viewpoint. If something is being added against the rules, take the time to point out precisely what rues are being avoided. I think you get extra points if you can do so with a minimum of vitriol. Consider this your opportunity to address these points. Take the time now, since your edits/reverts aren't making any headway. - Arcayne () 16:14, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Steven Knight conspiracy theorist

Sorry, I should have checked the discussion page (or even just thought about it for a second), but it didn't occur to me that this article would have so much edit warring going on. Anyway, I removed the additional qualifier 'conspiracy theorist' from the description of Stephen Knight. I am aware that he had a theory about a conspiracy-but the term is pejorative, as it implies that the person so described is wrong. I'm sure that Knight is wrong, but I think that we can do better than this. The explanation about a Masonic plot makes the phrase redundant anyway.FelixFelix 21:21, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

This article is edit-war central. Even Jack the Ripper himself would hesitate to dip into this particular piranha pool IMHO. Colin4C (talk) 13:17, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Conspiracy theorist author is an accurate and nonbiased title for Stephen Knight. He's the one who wrote the major book about the Royal Conspiracy Theory, which is what it's called, so there's no way getting around that description. DreamGuy (talk) 01:36, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Conspiracy theorist isn't a pejorative unless it's used like one. In this situation, it's perfectly descriptive: the man theorizes about conspiracies. --clpo13_(talk) 01:38, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I disagree, a 'conspiracy theorist' isn't just someone who has a theory about a conspiracy, they also have to be wrong. Which is why I tend to remove the phrase when I see it. Its almost always redundant (as with Stephen Knight in this case, where the passage decribes his theory about a masonic plot) and is nearly always used pejoratively to imply disapproval. And the royal conspiracy theory is what the WP article is called, I note previous editors objected to that title. FelixFelix 09:27, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm with Felix on this, Cipo. If someone called me a conspiracy theorist, he'd be picking up his teeth spread like bloody chicklets from the gutter. In almost any instance, it is a pejorative, lik the nutters who see the Gnomes of Zurich or the Vatican behind the curtain of all world events (FNORD). - Arcayne () 16:18, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I can certainly see how it can be used pejoratively. I'm guilty of using it that way myself. But I still don't think it automatically implies they're wrong. Unproven, perhaps, but not necessarily wrong. At any rate, given the concerns, I'm willing to let it slide. I suppose it is a bit redundant, considering the man is mentioned in the context of what would be considered a conspiracy theory. --clpo13_(talk) 20:47, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Which policy is violated?

There seems to be a revert war going on about policy violation. I don't understand. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 02:16, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I think the accusation gets thrown about a lot. Hopefully, the accuser will cite the specifics of what is violating policies and how. In the absence of proof, I'd say utterly disregard it. Good of you to ask, though. :) - Arcayne () 16:21, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Information was already provided. I say we utterly disregard those editors, like yourself, who knowingly pretend no specifics were given to try to justify their own bad behavior. DreamGuy (talk) 14:41, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

New Information - help add it please

There is information on Jack the Ripper that is not mentioned on the page. It was found at casebook.org but here is the exact address that should take you to the information I am specifically talking about: http://www.casebook.org/dissertations/rip-left.html It discusses the details of Polly Nichols's post mortem body, quotes Dr. Llewellyn, and ponders the possibility that Jack the Ripper was left-handed (he cut his victims' throats left to right, etc). I would edit the page myself but I'm not sure how to use the source, etc and want it done properly (as I'm sure everyone else does as well). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.169.207.111 (talk) 00:51, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

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