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Military history: European / Polish / World War II Start‑class

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Citation request

Please provide exact citation in Polish and/or in English. Thank you.--Lokyz (talk) 20:36, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

The book speaks of the battle. What's your basis for the claim that "This article or section may contain inappropriate or misinterpreted citations that do not verify the text"? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 21:02, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Sure thing: the books about Harry Potter are written, you woul'd not guess this, about the same Harry Potter! Thank You Piotrus, you've just publicly acknowledged, that you haven't even seen the book. Ah, just wondering, what color is the back cover?

And even now I'm obliged to ask you the exact citation as per WP:V--Lokyz (talk) 21:44, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

OK, I didn't read the book, did you? if you did please provide exact citation (a paragraph without your own comments and quoting exact page number. Please stop disrupting humanitarian sciences as a whole, making idiot of people who do believe that there IS a way to find a truth even in dubious situation.--Lokyz (talk) 22:19, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Lokyz can you write this again, I don't get what you mean ?--Molobo (talk) 21:51, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

The book is covered in white linen (well, not that white after those years). The exact citation is "W miejscowości Murowana Oszmianka został doszczętnie zniesiony baon litewski za znęcanie się nad ludnością polską. Npl stracił ok. 60 zabitych, wielu rannych, ok. 320 wzięto do niewoli". Happier? //Halibutt 12:32, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Forgot the translation. Here it goes: In the village of Murowana Oszmianka a Lithuanian battalion has been utterly destroyed in reprisal for maltreatment of Polish civilians. The enemy lost ca. 60 killed, many wounded, and approximately 320 were taken prisoner of war. //Halibutt 19:20, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Photos of the event.

"After the battle all Lithuanian prisoners of war were disarmed and set free with only their long johns and helmets on."

I found information that pictures of this events are available and were even shown on Polish television during anniversary in 2004. Might be worth to look for them to improve the article.--Molobo (talk) 21:18, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. pl:Rzeczpospolita Turgielska is interesting, too.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 22:29, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Self published sources

What is rationale for using self-published sources as personal web page as this? Who is Andrzeja Solaka, his academic degree? How reliable is catholic (?) newspaper? Which academic degree have a ex-journalist Jacek J. Komar, how reliable is cited kiosk newspaper of his ? M.K. (talk) 12:00, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

1. The rationale is fairly simple: the article is available at his personal website for free, while the archive of the journal it was published in is not. If you feel that it's bad - let's remove the link. OTOH I'm not sure how would that make Misplaced Pages better, as the reference would still be there - only without a valid link. After all you don't voice any concerns with the paper version, only the fact that the article is also available through his page...
2. As to Ratajczak's article - it is used as a backup reference and two others are present. If you feel this one lies while the other two tell the truth - feel free to remove it. But again, would it make Misplaced Pages better?
3. As to Gazeta Wyborcza - it's the largest and most respected Polish quality newspaper, somewhere between your Lietuvos rytas and Respublika probably.
4. Finally, as to Komar's academic degree - I have no clue. He has been Gazeta Wyborcza's correspondent to the Baltic States for several years now, but how is his academic degree important? //Halibutt 16:14, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I ask again, Who is Andrzeja Solaka? his academic degree? In[REDACTED] should be used WP:RS not some unspecified catholic (?) newspapers M.K. (talk) 16:19, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

No idea. From a quick google search it seems he's a Catholic publicist and author of at least two books. Do you have any problem with his article referred to in this article, or are you questioning him just for fun? //Halibutt 18:25, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I will just add that if it can be shown that his work has been criticized, we should certainly review it in more detail (as we did with Mikhail Meltyukhov, for example). But until then, he seems relatively reliable. Is any of the information he provides highly controversial, or, as Halibutt noted, are we questioning him "for fun" (or because WP:IDONTLIKE)?--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:29, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

WP policies are clear per , that: Misplaced Pages articles should cover all major and significant-minority views that have been published by reliable sourcesSo, no your answers are not enough to clear this things. Also who is Dariusz Ratajczak? how notable he is, his academic degree? M.K. (talk) 21:43, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Before I continue playing your game please tell me which "major and significant minority views" does this article ommit? Or the sources you question, for that matter. //Halibutt 11:15, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, this not about selpublished sources but rather about Polish right-wing propaganda sources, taking all the roots to Endecja and with cleary antisemitic views , or . I'm once again surprised what "reliable" sources Halibutt and Piotrus are using, no less i'm surpised that such rubbish is considered a WP:RS, and I'm raher sad, that such porpaganda is allowed in Poland (as .pl domain suggest)--Lokyz (talk) 13:23, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

In the light of these issues, I will again insist on asking about reliability of the sources, particularly how non Andrzeja Solaka academic degree? Also who is Dariusz Ratajczak? how notable he is, his academic degree? If certain group of contributors thinks that WP policies WP:RS is "just for fun" I will wait untill other more wiling contributors produce necessary info, for this reason I retag the article.M.K. (talk) 14:11, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Interia.pl is a generic host, and guilt by association is not we practice on Misplaced Pages. What specific claims by the authors above do you find dubious or controversial, and what sources can you present that have contradictory information? WP:IDONTLIKEIT is not enough to discard a source.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 16:49, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I do not intend to go through this "you like I don't" game. Anyway, just my opinion - the source is much worse than Vilnija publications (which you didn't see, but created an article about). And I've read some really disgusting "patriotic" thoughts by the author we're discussing now. But well, if such tone of the articles fits you - de gustibus non disputandum, i do not intend to violate WP:LIVING and create an article to destroy image of author you do not know, and do not have a clue about.--Lokyz (talk) 01:58, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Name

Current name is unknown in English sources , it is even strange that Polish name is used on those territories, which back then was not controlled by Poland. Therefore it would be more logical to use proper Belarussian name.M.K. (talk) 12:00, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

It was a part of Poland occupied by Germany. Sadly, I couldn't find a German name. On the other hand we don't speak of the Warschau Uprising, Kauen Ghetto, or the Invasion of Normandie even though all of that happened in German-held territories. That's why this title was chosen (and is in accordance with the MoS (specifically WP:UE). //Halibutt 16:00, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

For start it was Polish occupied lands. Second, as it is evident there is no English name of such battle. Therefore it is reasonable to use Belarusian name. M.K. (talk) 16:17, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Like in the case of Siege of Sankt Petersburg or Battle of Volgograd? We don't rename historical placenames when they change names. The area at the time was not part of Belarus, it was part of German-occupied Poland. As we don't have an English name of the place at hand we'll have to chose between Polish and German names. Ooops! No German name either. //Halibutt 16:20, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Exactly, then names are not available, is logical to use present one. It is good that you agree with me. M.K. (talk) 16:22, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Since the battle is more prominent in Polish than Belorusian historiography, I think that the Polish title is more acceptable (for the same reason we have battle of Stalingrad, not battle of Volgograd).--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:26, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Completely different things with Stalingrad, as those names are clear rename, while this situation is different "Murowana Oszmianka" is just translation of original name and imposed on article. Hardly, the argument that Since the battle is more prominent in Polish than Belorusian historiography can be valid as this battle is also prominent in LT history, so maybe use LT name, especially then Oszmianka and its forms are taken from Lithuanian language in the first place. therefore I still think that name should be used Belarusian one, for this reason I will restore the tag, M.K. (talk) 21:50, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Since Lithuanians were commanded by the Germans, perhaps you would like to argue for the German name, too? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 07:46, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Apart of that the name of that village has been invented, it was a neologism. And guess who renamed the village? Its' owner. And who was it? And in what language did he rename the village before it became part of Belarus in 1991? //Halibutt 11:16, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Fact is clear, there is no English publication which would use this battle name. Impose an Polish name is not the best approach. M.K. (talk) 14:14, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Oh? And are there any that use Lithuanian, Belorussian, or German? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 16:50, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Source in German

If anybody can read German, I found one source that seems to be relevant: . --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:05, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

My translation would be "The largest battle was fought on May 13, 1944, in Murowana Oszmianka, (which ended) with destruction of a Lithuanian 301st police battalion and the dissolution of the Lithuanian troops by the Germans, and to their internment". The translation might not be 100% accurate as my German is very limited. //Halibutt 21:43, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

1. Template:Pl icon various authors (1976). Halina Czarnocka (ed.). Armia Krajowa w Dokumentach. London: Studium Polski Podziemnej. p. 473. ISBN 0950134821. Retrieved 2008-03-15. {{cite book}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |coauthors= (help)

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