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March 18

Tahitian surfer with same last name

Is Tahitian surfer Manoa Drollet in any way related to the unfortunate Dag Drollet?72.229.136.18 (talk) 01:52, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Ah the Dag Droll-ay connection... Manoa doesn't mention any names here but can be contacted via Tahiti Surf Club. Julia Rossi (talk) 02:29, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Laundering money

People who want to launder money or just want to avoid paying income or sales tax do something quite interesting I never thought of. Lets say you owe a person $950,000 for drug/prostitution deals to keep your clients happy and they expect payment. Instead of paying them in cash you build a house or office or buy a diamond broach or acquire land or whatever appraised at $950,000. If you "sell" the property to them no one can require you to show that the buyer actually paid. Transfer of title can be made without a corresponding deposit in your bank account that can be tracked and the property becomes a payment made only to appear as a sale. Does everyone except bureaucrats think that no one is going to transfer title without being paid know that this is how to work the system or how the system works? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.100.15.115 (talk) 02:25, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

It would be trivial to see if the person receiving the title paid anything close to market value for the item by checking their bank accounts, which may be why you do not hear about this sort of transaction that much. A much more common method is to buy something at market value and sell to the person you want to benefit at well-below market rates.--droptone (talk) 11:44, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately the law does not require that the trail leading up to any particular transaction be verified. In fact doing so under current law is considered an act of privacy invasion even possibly under a court order. The reason you do not hear about this all the time is because it is done all the time and is very easy to do and to get away with doing. Designating a transaction as a gift is by far the more common means in use to cover a discrepancy in price. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.100.15.115 (talk) 20:24, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I have examined many deeds for houses or land in the U.S. which described the property and said it was sold for "$1 and other considerations" without anywhere stating the total price. The "other consideration" could have been an unrecorded lease on some other property, or it could have been personal property, or it could have been art or bearer bonds. There is more to "consideration" than money in bank accounts. Edison (talk) 14:04, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

An explanation of the Jews

Recently I overheard someone use the movie 2001: A Space Odyssey to explain what happened to the Jews. The idea goes like this: The Jews having escaped Egypt and taking with them their belief of being God’s chosen people and incapable of sin or imperfection (some Jews at least) took on the personal attitude of self-perfection about themselves identical to the computer in the movie named HAL. Although believing themselves to be perfect or to have reached a state of perfection they failed to see anything they did wrong not as being the result of their own error but rather as the result of an error made by someone else. The problem being that other reasonable or logical beings faced with the absolute facts reached the opposite conclusion. Eventually this awareness of self deception was conveyed to a Jew (Jesus Christ) who was one of their own who realized the need to convey this knowledge to his fellow Jews with the idea that the only way he might convince them of his sincerity was to sacrifice his life.. The comparison deviates here somewhat in that the self sacrifice of Jesus’ life did not succeed and the Jews continued to see themselves as incapable of wrong doing or sin (error). The Holocaust then was the attempt to shut the Jews down long enough for them to go through a reset and perhaps then come to realize that they are in fact capable of error and need to question themselves based on the idea that they are not incapable of error and are not perfect despite the conflicting expectation of anyone told they are on a special mission as a child of God. Having heard this I am now curious as to whether the Jews actually believe themselves to be perfect or more perfect than or superior to others in the sense that they are in fact acting as the children of God under God’s direction? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.100.15.115 (talk) 05:43, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I can tell you that your friend is completely ignorant of the Bible and of Jewish history. If you read the Hebrew Bible (Old Testament), you'll find it's full of sins that the Jews committed, from the Golden Calf to the idolotry of Solomon's wives to the rejection of the prophets like Jeremiah. Clearly, by adopting the books of the Hebrew Bible as their holy text, the Jews were acknowledging their own failings. The Bible also makes it clear that many of the bad things that happened to the Jews, such as the scattering of the Ten Tribes and the Babylonian Captivity, were due to their own sins rather than to "an error made by someone else." A Talmud story says that the Messiah will come only when (the people of) Israel repent for their sins and heed the voice of God. So undoubtedly, Jews are and have always been very attuned to their own sins and think themselves far from perfect. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 08:14, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

...and is part of the acknowledgment of their own imperfection the believe that God must absolutely conform to their reading of the Scriptures and in the event of God's assessment that His covenant with them had been broken could not become flesh and sacrifice that flesh as the final effort to save them from the consequences of their own undoing? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.100.15.115 (talk) 18:24, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Your last question appears not to be a question but rather a diatribe or an attempt to start a debate on Jesus. Both diatribes and debates are improper for the reference desk, as the instructions above specify. There are many religion forums on the Internet where you can post such material. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:18, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Quite the contrary. However, if the Misplaced Pages reference desk is unable to provide unbiased clarification for the purpose of resolution in support of universal comprehension, enlightenment and understanding then entering into a debate here would be a bit like arguing with HAL. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.100.15.115 (talk) 02:35, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

What are you doing ,Dave?hotclaws 14:23, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Easily half of Judaism is about how much sin and imperfection Jews have and how angry God is on account of it. Honestly your friend doesn't know a thing about Judaism. Throwing in misc. junk about Jesus (which shows a total lack of knowledge of the New Testament) plus a dubious literary interpretation of the Holocaust (which seems to make it sound almost necessary or beneficial!!) really tops the cake. Your friend, and probably you too, if you entertained this nonsense, have a great depth of ignorance on these subjects. If you'd like to be pointed to some resources that would give a better understanding, I'm sure we can do that on here, but somehow I suspect you're already self-satisfied with your goofy answer because it plays to some other desires you have. --Captain Ref Desk (talk) 16:51, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

This isn't the only interpretation I have heard. In another one HAL is characterized instead as the Devil who rebels against God. In another the idea is that HAL is a symbol of God being an imperfect creation of man rather than the other way around. Perhaps you have me confused with a Jehovah's Witness. If you have other resources as to what HAL might symbolize, please refer away. If you have any other resources as to what God might symbolize, likewise refer away. Same for Jesus and the Jews since you are partly right, I have no idea of my own. 71.100.15.115 (talk) 08:50, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

LOL! Clio the Muse (talk) 02:32, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Technical colleges

What are the advantages of attending a technical college? Also what are the career opportunities you may find? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.137.236.111 (talk) 06:44, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Practical skills? Mo practical less theory. Shorter time scale for graduation. Mo employability through recognised qualifications, trade and other certificates etc, less ...? Talking to a career counsellor at any tech college would help. Julia Rossi (talk) 07:54, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Mo? Odd argot. --Tagishsimon (talk) 11:50, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Like "ho'" I suppose. ៛ Bielle (talk) 17:06, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Do I hear tut-tutting? No Bielle, not like ho. I was rushing at the time. Feel free to answer the OP's question anytime, cheers Julia Rossi (talk) 22:33, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

"Tut-tutting"? Not from me. Don't have a licence to drive one, for a start. I was just following Tagishsimon's comment with an example of a similar construction. It is similar, and thus not as odd an "argot" as he/she suggested, isn't it? I feel as if I am missing a point here. You have done a fine job in answering the question. Ms Ross; I have nothing more I could possibly add. ៛ Bielle (talk) 23:11, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

mo is the adjective whose comparative is more, of course. —Tamfang (talk) 03:41, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

global warming

moved to science desk FiggyBee (talk) 07:35, 18 March 2008 (UTC) what is the meaning of figgybee meanwhile —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.92.126.151 (talk) 13:54, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

FiggyBee is a banana bender from Down Under. On her/his user page s/he writes: "My username is a reference to acalolepta vastator, the Fig Longicorn Beetle." --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 01:36, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Need help finding melody

Hi, I am looking for a melody that is stuck in my head. I have already gone to Musipedia and used the various searches (keyboard, contour, rhythm, etc.) but have no luck. I am not good at music. I experimented with different things on the keyboard and after a while I put together something that sounds vaguely like it, although it is probably off key and wrong in many places (this is what was entered on the keyboard search field, and click play to hear it):

b''4. a''4. g''4 f''4 d''4 c''2 d''4 f''8 e''8 f''4. d''4 c''8 d''8 c''4 a'2 b''4. a''4. g''4 f''4 d''4 c''2 d''4 f''8 e''8 f''4. d''4 c''8 b'8 c''4 d''4 

If anyone has any ideas I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks, --75.7.61.2 (talk) 08:27, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Before a, for -- gee -- for Ef$@*!idy -- foresee to the four effate afore! Before sea ate the ate sea, for -- aye -- too before! Aye, for! Gee, for afore the foresee to the fore for 88-F, for... . The foresee ate? Be ate, see! -- For the fore!

Makes perfect sense to me. I'm selling translations into English for $1,000 a pop, if anyone's interested.  :) -- JackofOz (talk) 10:17, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I hear (an imperfect rendering of) a well-known melody. Unfortunately I don't know where it is from, but I'm really amazed no one has identified it. It is in particular the following phrase (which I've slightly modified):

d''4 f''8 e''8 f''4. d''8 c''8 d''8 c''4 a'2

that triggers a sense of recognition.  --Lambiam 22:04, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Love is Blue? --tcsetattr (talk / contribs) 09:14, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

First World War in Boys' Books (British)

I'm looking for information and leads on how the First World war was depicted in literature aimed at British boys in the early part of the twentieth century. I'm particularly interested in the way in which writers and publishers attempted to maintain a heroic illusion in the face of the realities of total war. Hope someone can help. Captain Wentworth (talk) 09:00, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid I can't help with the early part of the 20th century, but I can tell you that boys' annuals in the 60s and 70s were maintaining a heroic illusion in their telling of 1st and 2nd world war stories. It's easy really: you just don't mention the pathetic bits and dwell on tales of daring do. All of this was helped by the reluctance of those who came back from the trenches to talk about it. Skittle (talk) 13:31, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Your starting point for this is definitely Biggles, though I would imagine you've found him already. He may be a special case as he started in adult books (I mean books aimed at adults, not adult literature) and became a boys character later. But he, and W.E. Johns other characters might get you started. DJ Clayworth (talk) 14:54, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I think, Captain Wentworth, that you should begin by trying to understand the general structure of boy's fiction at the time, a genre that was remarkably resistant to change. In essence the parameters had been set even before the Great War, in the kind of fiction offered by the likes of G A Henty, Herbert Strang, Percy F. Westerman and Robert Leighton. You will also find the kind of themes these authors preferred-tales of individual heroism against a late imperial setting-in weeklies like The Boy's Own Paper (which my father remembers with some fondness!), Pluck and The Boy's Friend. The atmosphere and semiotics of these publications, and others in a similar vein, is wonderfully captured by George Orwell in his essay Boy's Weeklies.

So, the generation of 1914 grew up against the kind of plucky and chivalric sentiment expressed by Henry Newbolt in Vitaï Lampada, with war depicted in a uniquely English way as a game of cricket;

The sand of the desert is sodden red-

Red with the wreck of the square that broke

The gatling's jammed and the colonel dead,

And the regiment blind with dust and smoke.

The river of death has brimmed its banks,

And England's far, and Honour a name,

But the voice of a schoolboy rallies the ranks-

"Play up! Play up! And play the game!"

For some the actual experience of war, the unheroic ugliness of the whole thing, did nothing to moderate these fictional depictions. In 1915 Captain F. S. Brereton published With French at the Front, whose hero, Jim Fletcher, could have leaped straight out of the pages of Henty. He is killed in a German attack, calling on his men to fight 'for the sake of old England.' Inspired by his example the Tommies fight on "the thin khaki line of heroes, the cool, calm, cherry sons of Empire", beating back the Hun. It's romantic; it's glorious: it's a lie.

Brereton went on treating the war through a prism of rosy and heroic optimism. In his 1917 novel, Under Haig in Flanders, he paints a nice and cosy picture of life at the front, where the Tommies feed on "frizzling bacon, not to be beaten anywhere, bread that might have graced the table of a Ritz hotel, and jam that would have been the envy of any housewife." He goes on to depict the Battle of the Somme, with the great blood-letting of 1 July, one of the worst days in British military history, described as a "triumph for the Allies and a bitter blow to our ruthless enemy."

This kind of literature, and much more besides, clearly has a propaganda purpose, intended to attract more and more young men to the front with a promise of high adventure. The reality must have been truly shocking. But even after the war, when no further purpose was served by these fairy tales, the genre continued, largely unaffected by the revelations of Robert Graves, Wilfred Owen and Siegfried Sassoon. Brereton's novels remained in print throughout the inter-war period, and were popular as school and Sunday school prizes.

If you want to take this further I would suggest A War Imagined: The First World War and English Culture by Samuel Hynes (Pimlico, 1992). Clio the Muse (talk) 00:07, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Buster Keation - related to Diane or Michael?

Are either Michael Keaton or Diane Keaton related to Buster Keaton? I know that both can't be as the article says they are not related to eachother. -- Q Chris (talk) 10:23, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, Michael Keaton's name is actually Michael Douglas, so no; Diane Keaton doesn't seem to be related to him (she actually changed her name too, but Keaton was her mother's last name, so it's still possible I suppose). Adam Bishop (talk) 10:33, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I have found an unverified "quiz answer" saying : "the relationship is the brother to the mother of Diane Keaton". -- Q Chris (talk) 11:06, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I can't find that mentioned anywhere else, and Buster Keaton's sister's name was Louise, whereas Diane Keaton's mother's name was Dorothy. FiggyBee (talk) 12:05, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Carr, Thompson, and Hobsbawm

This book review quotes the editor of the book as saying, "anything that has been condemned by Carr, Thompson and Hobsbawm must have something to recommend it." I know who Hobsbawm is, but was wondering who the author of the quote might have been referring to by 'Carr' and 'Thompson'. These two, perhaps? --superioridad 12:59, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

according to this essay, "Some professional historians have gone as far as to dismiss counterfactualism as, in the case of E.H. Carr, a “parlour game” and a “red herring.”2 Indeed, E.P. Thompson went as far as to condemn what he called “counterfactual fictions” as “Geschichtswissenschlopff, unhistorical shit.”3" (2 E.H. Carr “What is History?” (1961)3 E.P. Thompson “The Poverty of Theory” (1978)) SaundersW (talk) 13:07, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, those are the two. They are two of the best-known British historians (even a lazy American like me is well-acquainted with their works). Carr in particular, in his What is History?, makes quite a show of how silly some forms of counterfactual history are, like the idea that if Trotsky had not had a cold then Stalin would have never taken power, etc. --Captain Ref Desk (talk) 15:53, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

It might also interest you to know, superioridad, that the author of the book in question, Andrew Roberts, comes from an altogether different tradition from the 'three witches' of British Marxist academic history. His contempt for them is altogether more broadly based, going well-beyond their negative views on counter-factual history! Clio the Muse (talk) 00:30, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Russian Jews in London

Years ago, when I was growing up in London's East-End, my great-grandmother told me about the generally hostile reception received by Jewish refugees fleeing the pogroms in Russia towards the end of the nineteenth century. I've been looking around here for any more details on this, though I can find little beyond a brief article on the Aliens Act of 1905. It would seem clear that there was widespread resentment against these Jewish asylum seekers, just as there is often resentment against other asylum seekers today. Does anyone know any more, particularly on how politicians reacted to popular pressure? Dora Kaplan (talk) 13:16, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

The arrival of large groups of destitute people, concentrated in already poor and overcrowded areas of the East-End, caused a rather unpleasant moral panic, Dora, one focused on fears for the racial purity of the nation. In 1904, Howard Vincent, the MP for Sheffield Central, wrote "While 260,000 people emigrated from the United Kingdom last year, their places were taken by no less than 82,000 of the scum of Europe." Arnold White, a leading eugenicist and racial theorist, considered most of the new arrivals in London to be 'diseased and destitute, a threat to British workers' While admitting that the Russian excesses had been 'regrettable', he said that this was based on a recognition by Russian statesmen that their country was threatened by a Jewish takeover. White was an influential figure, whose views of the Jews as diseased-ridden criminals, on the one hand, and exploitative international financiers, on the other, were widely disseminated. He included none other than Lord Salisbury, leader of the Conservative Party and three-times Prime Minister, among his correspondents.

It was Salisbury, while in opposition, who introduced a Bill in the House of Lords, calling for the expulsion of aliens, who 'threatened the peace and tranquility of the realm.' Destitute aliens, like those who were coming to the East-End, were also to be kept out.

In 1900, during the Khaki election, the anti-immigration East London Observer noted "Surely for Londoners, the election should have one object and that above all party politics. I refer to the presence in their midst of these foreign Jews." The cause was taken up by William Evans-Gordon, soldier, author and Member of Parliament. He co-operated closely with the British Brothers League in having a Royal Commission on immigration set, to which he was appointed chairman. It was as a result of this agitation that the Aliens Act 1905 was finally passed, though, in the event, it was far less restrictive than Evans-Gordon and his supporters would have liked.

It might also interest you to note that it was against this background that Bram Stoker's Dracula made its appearance, carrying themes of pollution by blood and disease, carried to England from Eastern Europe, giving it a particular relevance for the debates of the day. Clio the Muse (talk) 01:14, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

What's the geographic centre of Chinese politics?

Or, in other words, where does the Politburo meet? What's the Chinese equivalent of 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.? AlmostCrimes (talk) 13:39, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Zhongnanhai. — Kpalion 20:03, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Not sure...

...that this is the appropriate place for this question but it is the most likely (i think) to give me a helpful response. I work at a living history museum (pioneer village..though we eschew that title). We need the grass to look like it has been scythed but we don't have the manpower to scythe it all. We have used sickle bar mowers in the past BUT there are 2 problems: 1) the most reliable models/designs don't give us the uneven look that is historically accurate. 2) the brands & models we've used to date, break down too quickly.

Grazing animals might be ideal but would not have been tolerated in the front lawns of the more prominent families.

Any ideas/help would be most appreciated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.226.90.6 (talk) 15:00, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Advertise for volunteers - and give them a cookie when they've finished. Maybe put up an advert in a local college - those places are full of people with lots of energy and time.87.102.47.176 (talk) 16:44, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Also you could get an uneven finish using strimmers see String trimmer87.102.47.176 (talk) 16:44, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Why would grazing animals be a problem for the "more prominent" families? If they were good enough for the President of the United States? — Michael J 21:53, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

The string trimmer ( I call it a whipper snipper) mentioned above also has the added advantage of giving a scythe like pattern to the grass, as the operator does swing it from side to side in a fairly identical fashion and posture, using the pelvis as a fulcrum.

It is certainly faster (and much cheaper) than using a scythe but presumably slower than the sickle bar mowers. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 22:20, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Grazing animals have the mild disadvantage of depositing the metabolistic left overs of digested grass. Some visitors may turn up their noses at historical verism of such olfactory accuracy. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 22:32, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Expanses of scythed grass with no grazing animals in sight are anachronistic anyway. In what general region is this recreation? --Wetman (talk) 07:19, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

You could scythe the front lawns of the "prominent families" houses only; acquire sheep/geese/etc. for everywhere else. WikiJedits (talk) 13:25, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

You could try different sorts of scythes and, especially, techniques. The Scythe Connection has photos of seven year old girls scything wide strips of grass with ergonomic efficiency. BrainyBabe (talk) 12:00, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Iran

I recently read some where, i have forgotten where, but, In Iran you can have gender reasignment surgery, but being homosexual is punishable by death, there fore my question is, before one goes for the op, surely one is gay, and therefore cant get it done because. some one please explain this. Am i stupid, misinformed or is there something I am missing, oh, and I fully support gay rights as a straigh dude. just thought that should be pointed out. Cheers and Beers —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.115.175.247 (talk) 15:50, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I think it depends on definitions. Most gays don't want gender reassignment, and people who want gender reassignment see themselves as "born in the wrong body" rather than gay. Also, I don't know about Iran but in most countries with homosexuality laws the law was against homosexual acts, so a non-practising homosexual would be OK. -- Q Chris (talk) 15:57, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

The assumption that one who chooses gender reassignment surgery is gay is the problem. There is some discussion of this in the gender terminology section of the transsexualism article. --LarryMac | Talk 16:04, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

The timing of your question suggests you are referring to the BBC TV program "Transexuals in Iran" which aired on BBC 2 on Monday 25th February 2008 at 9pm, or to stories in other media ancilliary to that, such as this BBC radio 4 Woman's Hour segment. From memory, one interviewee said that as Iran is a conservative society, those in charge like things black-and-white; that men should fulfil a traditional male role, women likewise, and that a man+woman+kids family is the only valid domestic configuration. Homosexuality challenges this structure, as it implies a more complex and varied social unit: the resulting grey-areas vex the conservatives. So the government actively promotes (and pays toward) gender reassignment surgery - it's an effort to make the vexing homosexual conform to that rigid nuclear family template. It also smacks a bit of expediency in the face of rigid religious rule - if the prevailing dogma is that man+man=bad, but doesn't say that men can't become women, then changing one man in the unit into a woman "fixes" the problem in a theologically compliant way. The program also featured an interview with a gay Iranian man who said he was pressured into having the surgery; I believe the program implied that many or most of the gender surgeries done in Iran were really homosexuals seeking to find a livable existence, rather than people who would (in freer circumstances) have chosen gender reassignment. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 18:03, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

An older BBC story, in much the same vein, is here. -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 18:08, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Is it true that merely being homosexual in nature is punishable in Iran, or is the punishment against homosexual acts? If a man told the authorities he was sexually attracted to men, but truthfully said he had successfully resisted these attractions and had never committed any homosexual acts, would he be in hot water? -- JackofOz (talk) 05:48, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Please tell me this is a joke!

So scientologists are saying that this "xenu" took his people to Earth in a DC-8? What the fuck? Can someone verify this isn't some kind of hoax or vandalism? --TV-VCR watch 16:27, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Not a DC-8, but a space ship that looks just like one. See Space opera in Scientology. It's all well verified. Friday (talk) 16:30, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, it wouldn't be in Misplaced Pages if it were not well verified, would it? For comparitive purposes, Days of Our Lives is also well verified, as are the Bible and the Qoran ៛ Bielle (talk) 16:58, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I think he means that it's verified that scientologists actualy believe that. It's worth mentioning, because if you didn't already know, you might think that it was some sort of negative smear/hoax to make Scientology look silly. 72.10.110.107 (talk) 20:23, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Of course, people catalog it precisely to make Scientology look silly. Unlike, say, Christianity, which has adherents who catalog its absurd beliefs in earnest -- scientologists don't do the same. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.122.9.122 (talk) 21:57, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, Misplaced Pages catalogs it because Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia. To not do so would be an omission. 72.10.110.107 (talk) 15:22, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

One reason they do not want us using stem cells to grow new body parts is because as you grow older in most cases you grow wiser too - or at least are not as gullible. Selling odd stuff like off base religions requires an audience which has not yet been there.

Using rationality in arguments about inherently mystic and unverifiable concepts is, by definition, futile.

Freedom of opinion and speech must apply, particularly if one feels the opinion stated is absurdly ludicrous. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 22:45, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Scientologists actually believe this? I mean seriously, just chopping off the engines of a Douglas DC-8, putting it on a space background, and claiming it was what a green martian from some space agency used to fly millions of people to earth to blow them up with H-bombs? My brain is going to melt from how stupid this whole "religion" is. Cockatoo, this is more than absurdly ludicrous... --TV-VCR watch 00:36, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

As there are those among us who may feel that some of the most cherished beliefs of the world's religions (except our own, of course) are not dissimilar in logic or scientific evidence as to what is believed by Scientologists, it ill behooves the Ref Desk to fall into religious name calling. I strongly suggest this thread stop here before we get into winged humanoids, the raising the of the dead or 72 virgin attendants. ៛ Bielle (talk) 00:49, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree... If Scientology is about all those things then I'm outahere. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.100.15.115 (talk) 01:54, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm a Christian and not terribly fond of Scientology, but let's have the decency to show them some respect. I agree with Bielle, let's stop this name-calling now. AllenHansen (talk) 11:48, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Scientology has all the ridiculous theology of a major religion without the millennia of history to justify it. Imagine if Christianity were invented in the 20th century. Wouldn't that be absurd? Adam Bishop (talk) 12:29, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

And when things bear signs of their own cultural context, the hand of their creator, it makes it harder to regard them as mystical. As an example, in Paradise Lost Milton has the angels fighting in heaven with muskets and cannons, which is pretty much the same effect as a religion revolving around using a DC-8. When we recognize the creators of a religion as people more like ourselves, we start to suspect them as being just as dubious as anyone we know these days. Personally I find Mormonism suffers from the same problem—it reads to me (a historian) like something could have only come out of the early 19th-century imagination. --Captain Ref Desk (talk) 19:27, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Inflation, It's cause

18:05, 18 March 2008 (UTC)18:05, 18 March 2008 (UTC)~~Is failure to establish a constant legal value for the dollar a significant open door to inflation ? (Lack of "Gold standard") (Establishment of a "labor Unit" as measurement, for example ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.164.84.229 (talk) 18:07, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Empirically, no; at least in the sense that inflation a problem for gold standard currencies - see Gold standard#Disadvantages. Meanwhile Inflation#Causes of inflation may or may not assist you. --Tagishsimon (talk) 21:16, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

When the major currencies were directly defined by gold, the explosion (especially after the opening up of the Witwatersrand gold mines) in the quantity of gold in circulation had some big effects, not least in increasing the amount of capital available for economic development. We tend to think of inflation as always bad, but it isn't so simple. Xn4 21:27, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

hummm... a labor standard for the dollar. I like it. Trouble is that whether or not you extend it to mental labor or not you have the problem posed in the past by horses and today by machines. Even surgery has proven itself to be within the capacity of computer programming. Even computer programming now is within the ability of a neural networks to perform. What about intellect you say certainly human intellect can not be surpassed by a computer. Wrong again. Computers are fully capable of performing optimal classification and reducing multiple state equations to minimum form. Going by the capacity of a computer to play chess. I think we might be living with a dollar worth less than a few cents if we based it on human labor or the ability of human labor to get a job done.

old testament

what is inside the ARK of the Covenant? 24.182.28.106 (talk) 18:15, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

See Ark of the Covenant. --Sean 18:35, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

The Ark of the Covenant is described in the Bible as a sacred container, wherein rested the Tablets of stone containing the Ten Commandments as well as other sacred Israelite pieces.

Good isn't it.87.102.47.176 (talk) 18:39, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Leadership of Muslim communities/mosques

Who other than the Imam is in the (religious/administrative/...) leadership of a Muslim community or mosque? So, if a Muslim community intends to build a mosque somewhere--who would lead negotiations? Are their official positions, inofficial leaders (i.e. simply those John Does who step forward and do it), etc.? I realize that it may differ between schools of Islam; I'd be most interested in communities most popular at the US East Coast and in Western Europe. Thanks for all help, Ibn Battuta (talk) 18:27, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

A ra'is can be anything from a community leader to a president. A qadi was/is also a community leader. Adam Bishop (talk) 22:15, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

This is not an authoritative answer, but in general I'd expect there to be a committee formed of individuals from the community who have taken the initiative, who have the respect and support of the community, and are willing to represent it. Negotiations would be held with the committee, of which a few members may have been more specifically designated to be the primary spokespersons for outside contact, while other members may be more engaged with rallying support and fund raising in the local Muslim community. One of these committee members may happen to be an imam, but in general imams are supposed to be spiritual guides rather than administrators.  --Lambiam 23:32, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Ark of the covenant and Tablets of stone

The page referenced says that the stones therein were made of sapphire.

Question: what is the interpretation of sapphire here - slabs of corundrum seem unlikely, could they be by any chance made of lapis lazuli?

Your expertise, guesses and links appreciated.87.102.47.176 (talk) 18:42, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

One rather down-to-earth explanation I've seen is that the Hebrew word for book, sefer is related to the word for sapphire, sapir. I gather sapir was used rather generally for things of great value, so when the Talmud mentions a sapphire-like stone that shouldn't be taken literally as meaning a blue stone. But Hebrew isn't my subject. Xn4 22:15, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Our article states that sapphire was not known until the emergence of the Roman Empire and does, indeed, suggest lapis lazuli (used by the Egyptians in Mosaic times). As Xn4 above, I am neither a Bible scholar nor a Judaist. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 23:01, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm a "Judaist" (I guess) but not a Bible scholar, either. I did look up Tables of the Law in the early-1900s Jewish Encyclopedia, and it says that the "sapphire" of the Tables was "was of a nature that admitted of the tables being rolled up." So clearly we're not talking normal sapphire here. The material was "quarried from the solar disk." The use of the word "sapphire" in various languages to describe the Tables apparently dates to the Early Medieval period or Late Antiquity. The writers of the Midrashim presumably thought it was the best word to describe the literally other-worldly material of the Tables. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:35, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

@ 87.102.47.176, I was in a mini-conundrum about your word "corundrum", assuming it was a mis-spelling of carborundum. But then I discovered you must have been referring to corundum, something I had never heard of. So thanks for the opportunity to expand my vocab. -- JackofOz (talk) 01:20, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

The word carborundum is a portmanteau formed from carbon + corundum. Let us hope you will never be in a carbonumdrum.  --Lambiam 23:40, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

As far as I understand it, the tablets themselves are only identified in Biblical texts as being of "stone". The sapphire reference occurs a few verses earlier (in Exodus 24:10), in reference to what Moses and his cronies see as they are brought into the presence of God. Since they are (presumably) prostrate, they only see the ground at the feet of God, which appears "like the working of a pavement of lapis lazuli." I am not a Hebrew scholar, but the relevant phrase is:

כמעשׁה לבנת הספיר

Gwinva (talk) 01:43, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

In this case, the Hebrew word sappir predates the English word "sapphire" by a couple thousand years or so. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, sappir appeared in the Septuagint as "sapphiros" (with both the "p" and "ph" pronounced). The Greeks seem to have adopted the word "sapphiros" to refer to both the Biblical "sapphire" and to lapus lazuli. When "our" sapphire was discovered, the Greeks probably called it "uakinthos" and the Romans called it "hyacinthus." Latin must have adopted the "sapphirus" to refer to our sapphire before it split into the various Romance languages of today. English takes the term from Old French. Incidentally, the OED says the word "sapphire" is probably not of Semitic origin. "Some scholars have conjectured" that it may ultimately be a Sanskrit word meaning "dear to the planet Saturn" and referred to "some dark gem" -- perhaps even sapphire! -- Mwalcoff (talk) 02:07, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

ok thanks that was very interesting - I don't know the hebrew alphabet, or hebrew so on any interpretations of translations I rely on you. So... When an english bible says 'sapphire' it means 'lapis lazuli' or maybe lazurite or at least not the sapphire of today, and possibly just means a special material. Hoshen says a similar thing. Another question(s)

"quarried from the solar disk."

Anything you can tell me surrounding this would be great. Are there any other mentions of a 'solar disc' in this literature. Is it anyway similar to the 'vault of the heavens'?83.100.183.180 (talk) 14:13, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

That's the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia translation of a word in Canticles Rabbah, also known as the Song of Songs Rabbah, an Early Medieval Midrash. You'll need to go to a really big library (or a Jewish library) to find more information -- unless there's someone out there with quite a home collection of Jewish books. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:33, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

The "solar disc/disk" is simply the sun, as seen from earth. That is, people who believe in a "solar disk" believe the sun is a disk in the sky. So the "solar disk" is hanging from the "vault of the heavens" in this primitive cosmology; a "solar disk" can also be the depiction of this solar disk (as in hieroglyphics). I confess I don't see any reasonable explanation for something being mined from the solar disk, though what unreasonable explanation there is I can't say. - Nunh-huh 06:27, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Ok thanks - might have been just a single reference, don't think I'll be able to follow this up right now. Maybe in the future. Thanks.83.100.183.180 (talk) 13:32, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

See also: Atenism#Link to Judaism, Exodus 24:9-12, Psalm 104 and Great Hymn to the Aten.—eric 15:27, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks again83.100.183.180 (talk) 16:37, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

First black woman mayor in the United States

Mrs. Dessie Lee Patterson of South Mansfeild, Louisian is the first Black woman mayor in the United States, elected in March of 1971. Is there any documentation of this woman and her accomplishments?

Sincerely,

Vicki Lynn Mayweather (email removed)—Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.13.161.21 (talk) 22:12, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi Vicki Lynn, your question will get attention without the all caps header, thanks. The protocol is to read the big box at the top of this page, check for your item in the search box, then ask your question as you did, without an email. Best, Julia Rossi (talk) 22:40, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

According to various sources, e.g. this and this, she was the first black woman mayor in Louisiana, and she wasn't elected in 1971, just appointed (although she did win several mayoral elections later on). Clarityfiend (talk) 00:32, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, they're not freely avaiable sources, but maybe your library has one of these publications or can help you get the respective pages. --Ibn Battuta (talk) 00:44, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

March 19

Lutheran Hymns

What were three or four of the most popular Lutheran hymns in the 1760s? AllenHansen (talk) 12:05, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

These two websites The Lutheran Hymnal, 1941 and The Lutheran Hymnal Online offer versions of the Lutheran hymn book that include the dates the hymns were written. That doesn't tell you which were most popular, but you could at least start making a list of period-correct ones. WikiJedits (talk) 13:51, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Ah, hang on, try this one instead: Lutheran Hymnody. It seems "hymnody" is the correct search term. WikiJedits (talk) 14:02, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Maybe I should rephrase my question. What were some of the most widely sung Lutheran hymns, in German, in the mid-1700s, especially the 1760s. A lot of the hymns in the 1941 Hymnal were obviously not sung by them at the time. AllenHansen (talk) 17:32, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Let me take a stab at this ... The second half of the 18th century was a time of great simplification in German, specifically Lutheran, church music, due to the combined effects of the Enlightenment and the stile galant, somewhat as a reaction to perceived excesses of opulence in the preceding period. Extravagant music, such as the cantatas, oratorios, and Passions of J.S. Bach, of was pretty much a thing of the past, -- for a while. The same hymns were often sung as in the first half of the century -- Ein' feste Burg ist unser Gott, Christ lag in Todesbanden, Vater unser im Himmelreich -- but not necessarily with the same settings. Worship services consisted of hymns, readings, prayers, and preaching, with a much diminished importance of music for its own sake. Many, if not most, of the chorales you can find in the 371 Four-Part Chorales of J.S. Bach were still sung, though according to the article in the New Grove, some of the settings were recomposed in accordance with the taste for lighter styles. Antandrus (talk) 00:39, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Addendum: a good way to research this would be to take the list of hymns in the 371 by Bach, and then look through one of those Lutheran hymnals for post-Bach harmonizations of the same hymns -- specifically if you can find some dated to the 1750s and 1760s (most good hymnals give the source for the tune, as well as the composer and date of the harmonization). You may find the voice-leading and harmonies somewhat simplified from the versions by Bach. Antandrus (talk) 00:42, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you both very much! 192.117.101.209 (talk) 20:31, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

farm animal as pet animal B.C. Canada

I remember there was a news in Canada where in British Columbia where woman has a dwarf horse, which is a farm animal and she wants it as a pet but people and mayor of the town, which I didn't get the name, said it is not right to do that and they bring this matter into the court. Where I can find this news report? I ask this because I think it could change the law of Canada. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Don Mustafa (talk • contribs) 01:12, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Could it be http://www.canada.com/victoriatimescolonist/news/story.html?id=1a0bca94-57f0-49e4-9fa5-4f3edff82305? --Bowlhover (talk) 02:06, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

History assigment-help please

"The political crisis that overtook Scotland and then Britain in the period from 1637 to 1640 was not about Prayer Books; it was not about Bishops; it was about Power". It's a history assignment I have to do over the easter break. I am not asking for an answer. I'm just asking for some clues and some guidance. I know about the Prayer Book crisis and I know about the Bishops Wars. I'm just not sure how to put this information together to get the kind of answer looked for in the question. Help!Donald Paterson (talk)

Well, any political crisis is about power. The question itself is poorly crafted, it's basicaly telling you to come up with the answer they want to hear. Anyway, the Bishop's War was about Bishops, because secular and ecclesiastical power were intertwined. People had to attend church, christenings, marriages and deaths were recorded, invaluable information in pre-census days, so to change the hierarchy to a peer-based system, would hurt the King's authority. The actual church doctrine wasn't as important as who they answered to.

The prayer books, to put it simply, were how God heard the people. Charles was imposing his way on someone with a different set of beliefs. Basicaly, the conflicts were about who the church's power went to. I hope someone more knowledgable will chime in. AllenHansen (talk) 12:31, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

OK, Donald, yes, it was about power, understood in a number of senses: the loss of power by large sections of the Scottish aristocracy following the Union of the Crowns in 1603; the acquisition of power by the Scottish episcopacy as agents of the crown; the misuse and abuse of prerogative power by a distant king. You should have a look at the page on the Covenanters, which covers these points in some detail.

In your position I would begin by looking briefly at the rule of James VI in Scotland, particularly in relation to the question of church government. The separation of the aristocracy from the more radical elements in the Presbyterian party had been one of James' political successes, enabling him to build a new national church in the north on an Episcopalian basis. When in London James, secure in his power and his peace, was famously to say that he was able govern Scotland 'by pen.' But this form of government was always fragile. It depended on James' understanding of the complexities of Scottish politics; it depended on his familiarity with the leading personalities of the realm; it depended, above all, on his ability to ensure that the nobility had access to office and position. But, in the end, there was only a limited amount of this to give.

Charles' reign started badly in the north. He alienated the nobility by an Act of Revocation, which threatened to claw back all former clerical lands that had been secularised since the Reformation. He did little to win over the Scottish nobility thereafter, preferring to restrict his counsels to a small and Anglicised group of favourites; people like James, Marquess of Hamilton. Scotland was thus left with a large group of suspicious and underemployed aristocrats. It was bad enough that most of these people had little or no access to the king, far removed in London; what made matters far worse was that, from the mid 1630s, Charles began to fill vacancies in the Scottish Privy Council from the panel of bishops, including the post of Chancellor, the most powerful of all. Jealous of the growing power and influence of their Episcopalian colleagues, the nobility only needed a cause to give their immediate and long-term resentments a precise direction. It came in 1637, when Charles insisted on the adoption of a new Anglican-style Prayer Book without taking any soundings at all from the aristocracy.

For the Presbyterian dissidents in an Episcopal Church opposition to the Prayer Book was an ideal cause around which to unite. But it may have come to nothing but from the support they obtained from the nobility: men like James Graham, Earl of Montrose and subsequently Archibald Campbell, Lord Lorne. A new and dangerous political alliance had been created, destroying all the work of James VI. The Presbyterians were able to challenge the power of the Bishops in the Church, just as the Nobility was able to challenge the power of the Bishops in the state. Scottish government was, in effect, completely removed from the crown, as both the Presbyterians and the Nobility went on to challenge the power of the King himself in the Bishops' Wars.

Charles was on a downward spiral. Unable to control events in Scotland he also lost control of events in England. In the end he lost his head, in more ways than one. The best of luck with your assignment. Clio the Muse (talk) 01:39, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks both. I knew you would not let me down, Clio. Donald Paterson (talk) 19:07, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Purchasing power of US dollar circa 1900

What was the purchasing power of a dollar in 1900 expressed in terms of a dollar today? F Chiles (talk) 11:58, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Follow the top links here... WikiJedits (talk) 13:53, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Thus: $25.47 in the year 2007 had the same purchasing power as $1.00 in the year 1900. Conversely, $0.04 in the year 1900 had the same purchasing power as $1.00 in the year 2007. (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 22:40, 19 March 2008 (UTC))

There are lots of ways of calculating historical currency rates—it's a case of what indicator you choose to use, and which one you choose to use (ideally) has to do with what you are thinking of purchasing with that dollar. If you're talking about the price of food or rent, the CPI is a good one to go with; if you're comparing government funding of science, the relative share of the GDP makes more sense, etc. Ideally your indicator will be most like the proposed purchasing that you are considering. Additionally, some of the indicators change more over time; food might be less of an expense today (or more of one, I don't know) than it was before, due to improvements in technology, expectations, availability, etc.

I've found this site the best overall conversion site, as it does all of the various types for you and let's you see how much variance there is. Note that you can't reliably do it for 2008, because to calculate these things you need values that won't be published until some time after the year is over, but you can go up to 2006 or so. It also describes the relative strengths and weaknesses of using different indicators, and gives some concrete examples of the sort of things you might use with one or the other. --Captain Ref Desk (talk) 01:24, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

In 1900 you could hire a laborer for $1 a day, but you would get few takers today for $25.47 per day. Edison (talk) 19:01, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Edison --- why is that? If the dollar values are (theoretically) equal or identical. Wouldn't the same laborers willing to work for $1.00 (then) be the same group of people willing to work for $25.47 (now)? If not, why not, given that the dollar amount is the same? Thanks. (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 07:28, 21 March 2008 (UTC))

Because people's wages and standard of living have gone up by more than inflation. The average family, for example, can afford to buy far more possessions than an average family in 1900. However you probably could easily find people willing to work for $25 a day in China and other third-world countries. (Are we exploiting them by not paying them enough for their goods?) 80.2.202.35 (talk) 17:55, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Then the term "purchasing power" is misleading. I would assume that if I had $1.00 in 1900, I am in the same financial position as if I had $25.47 in 2007. I guess I included some unwarranted premises? To me, that is what "equal purchasing power" would mean. (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 20:17, 23 March 2008 (UTC))

Most prolific fathers

Could someone provide a list of the most prolific fathers. And a list of the numbers of children they fathered.--Gary123 (talk) 14:06, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

You should check out the Guiness Book of Records --Dweller (talk) 15:39, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Brigham Young had at least 56 children. Osama bin Ladin has about 50 siblings. - Nunh-huh 15:47, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Living, it might be this man with 78 and counting. Historically, it's possibly Genghis Khan. It would be very hard to devise a complete, well-referenced list. Marskell (talk) 15:59, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Agricultural commodity prices

What is a website where I can find basic commodity prices. I don't want one with a some big fancy graph that I can't understand or lots of big confusing numbers. I just want the prices. Ive been looking for awhile now and haven't found anything. Thankyou. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.119.61.7 (talk) 14:12, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

There is a table listing agricultural commodity prices on the right side of this page when the Chicago Mercantile Exchange is open for trade. Any website that keeps commodity prices current is going to be oriented to serious traders, who will want more information than you may want. Still, you should be able to find the information you want on this site or other sites that publish commodity price quotes. Marco polo (talk) 14:25, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

bible, talmud etc other books

The old testament etc really seems to be a mine of hisorical information. Are there any other sources that give a similar level of insight into 'bronze/iron age' societies and customs, outside these judaic related texts. (I've already considered egyptian heiroglyphs) - doesn't have to be middle eastern.83.100.183.180 (talk) 14:18, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Lots! (You want written documents, rather than archaeological data, right?) The History of Literature page is a great jumping off point. The Vedas are packed with cultural details, and you can look at the Epic of Gilgamesh, Book of the Dead and related items, early Chinese writings, and lots more. WikiJedits (talk) 14:47, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes thanks.83.100.183.180 (talk) 17:10, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

The Talmud is a wealth of information, but for the early centuries AD. AllenHansen (talk) 17:25, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Don't forget the Amarna letters. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:22, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

The Light

In near death experiences and the like, eg paranormal phenomenon, people are told to eith go or not go into the light. I wish to read our article if there is one on The Light —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.115.175.247 (talk) 16:41, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Take a look at our article on Near-death experience. Personally, I am suspicious that they are anything other than brain misfirings correlated with cultural expectations and experience, but I am without doubt a skeptic. --Captain Ref Desk (talk) 17:00, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I take it that you are familiar with this poem? --Major Bonkers (talk) 13:51, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Popes and Emperors

Was there a gap between the last Roman Emporer and the first Pope, or did they overlap? Was there a transition when Emperors became Popes, or are they two distinctly different and unconnected roles? 80.0.107.56 (talk) 17:00, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Emperors and Popes are two different things. Emperors were typically crowned by Popes. Sometimes Emperors even disposed of Popes. To my knowledge no Emperor has been a Pope or vice versa though perhaps someone knows better than I. --Captain Ref Desk (talk) 17:03, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

80.0.107.56, did you read the two articles that you linked to? Anyway, according to Roman Catholic tradition, the first pope (bishop of Rome) was Saint Peter in AD 33. Traditionally, the last emperor of the Western Roman Empire was Romulus Augustulus. In AD 476, he lost his throne to Odoacer who chose not to use the imperial title and styled himself King of Italy instead. So between 33 and 476, you've got 443 years of overlap. The Roman imperial title was revived by Charlemagne when he was crowned emperor by Pope Leo III in AD 800. During the Middle Ages, the Holy Roman Empire, created in AD 962, and the papacy were the two major politial powers in Europe, often in conflict with each other (see Investiture Controversy). Arguably, the Austrian Empire (later Austria-Hungary), which existed from 1804 until 1918, was a successor state to the Holy Roman Empire, so from 962 to 1918, you've got another 956 years of overlap. Tha papacy had its ups and downs, but it has existed continuously for the last two millenia. — Kpalion 18:14, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

And meanwhile, the real Emperor continued to rule in Constantinople until 1453, happily frustrating the Pope for centuries! Adam Bishop (talk) 18:28, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

And the tradition of the Eastern Roman Empire (and of frustrating the Popes of Rome) was later continued by the Russian Emperors until 1917. — Kpalion 18:49, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

At the same time of the Ottoman Sultans also claimed of being the heirs of the Byzantine emperors. There were simply more than one emperor at the same time (sometimes as much as 3), all of them claiming to be the successors of the old Roman emperors (and hence political heirs of Julius Caesar). First there was the emperor of the Byzantine empire (which was called "Roman empire" by its inhabitants). Then in AD 800 the pope crowned Charlemagne as Roman emperor. After a while the Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation was portrayed by its emperors to be the revival of the Roman Empire and backed by the Catholic Pope. This irritated the Byzantine Basileus which were backed by the Orthodox church. After the Fall of Constantinople the Ottoman Sultans and the Russian Czars claimed to be its heirs. The term "real" is very subjective. Flamarande (talk) 19:14, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I believe Adam used the word "real" humorously. By the outbreak of the First World War, Europe had at least three, if not more, emperors, all of whom, in some way, claimed to be heirs to the traditions of the ancient Roman Empire. Their imperial titles derived either from the Latin word imperator (French empereur, Russian император) or from the cognomen of Gaius Iulius Ceasar (German Kaiser, Bulgarian цар). And it's not like there was always only one pope at a time. — Kpalion 20:36, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Part of the confusion may arise from the fact that the Roman Catholic pope has appropriated some of the titles and other marks of nobility previously used by the ancient Roman emperors. See, for example, Pontifex Maximus. -- 128.104.112.85 (talk) 22:08, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

80.0, you might also wish to look at Caesaropapism, though this is more relevant to the Eastern Church.

I am not sure if Adam was serious in referring to the rulers of the Byzantine east as the 'real' emperors, though I suspect any humour intended was draped in the irony common among historians. I, though, am quite serious in insisting that they were the real emperors, intending no irony whatsoever! The occupants of the imperial throne in Constantinople were real in the sense that they had their authority and legitimacy from Constantine the Great, and through him all the way back to Augustus. Odoacer did not 'usurp' the imperial power; in removing Romulus Augustulus he merely ended its division, all nominal authority handed back to Zeno and his successors in Constantinople. One Emperor; one Empire; one God. Charlemagne, by this measure, was a parvenu; a pretender crowned by a western pontiff on no certain authority, simply because the throne of the Roman world was occupied by a woman! Alas, preserve us all from barbarians playing at being Romans! Clio the Muse (talk) 02:14, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Clio, is your last sentence a reference to the toga party, perhaps? That's what it made me think of, anyway. I think a case could be made that barbarians playing at being Romans (Theodoric comes to mind in addition to Charlemagne) are preferable to barbarians serious about being barbarians. Deor (talk) 02:33, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Toga parties, yes, that's good! Barbarians playing at Romans merely serves to highten their conceit-it does not make them any less barbarous! Clio the Muse (talk) 02:43, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I was half-joking, but people do tend to forget that the Roman Empire didn't disappear at all, it just wasn't in Rome anymore. Adam Bishop (talk) 03:35, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Enjoyable eastern and other non-western ancient classics?

What eastern classics would people recommend reading for pleasure? Similarly, are there other non-western classics people would suggest? 80.0.107.56 (talk) 17:03, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, depending on what you define as "eastern", "classic" and "enjoyable", I venture to suggest one of the most "enjoyed" such texts would be the Kama Sutra. 1001 Arabian Nights is also quite entertaining. Book of Esther is also a right riveting read, and topical too, as the anniversary of its denouement is this coming Friday. --Dweller (talk) 17:14, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

The Richard Burton translation of Arabian Nights is most enjoyable in my opinion. You can tell he liked risqué stories. — Laura Scudder ☎ 19:53, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

The Mahābhārata and the Ramayana are, without question, great works. Try also The Tale of Genji. Corvus cornix_talk 18:22, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

On the other hand I found The Tale of Genji to be one of the most boring books I’ve ever read so I guess it’s a matter of taste. . . --S.dedalus (talk) 06:40, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I've never read Popol Vuh, but you might want to look at that, too. I don't know anything about African literature, unfortunately, to know what to recommend there. Corvus cornix_talk 18:44, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Romance of the Three Kingdoms from china could be compared to if anything shakespeares english war plays - lots of battles.83.100.183.180 (talk) 18:26, 19 March 2008 (UTC) Note I haven't actually recommended it but have heard that many have enjoyed it.

Genji is a very slow read... I'd recommend the Epic of Gilgamesh which has a lot of story (some of which you may find familiar in other settings). SaundersW (talk) 18:56, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Also from China, Dream of the Red Chamber aka Story of the Stone. Family, by Ba Jin, is a modern classic (early 20th century) of Chinese literature, along with Lu Xun's short stories (including Diary of a Madman, Medicine, The True Story of Ah Q and others). Steewi (talk) 00:56, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Shahnameh.--Goon Noot (talk) 03:57, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

The Pillow Book of Sei Shōnagon. -- Julia Rossi (talk) 06:53, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Try The Art of War,the Tao Te Ching, The Setting Sun, Dream of the Red Chamber, and Ikite iru Heitai by Tatsuzō Ishikawa. Hope that helps, --S.dedalus (talk) 06:58, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Hagakure is challenging but good but hardly qualifies as ancient, being from the 18th century. Vranak (talk) 16:51, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

grandville sharp rule

I was wanting to ask a question about Grandville Sharps rule on Matt 28:19 when it states that if the article "the" is used more than once it is referring to different persons example: in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost does this rule apply also to the scripture Acts 7:32 I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. Does this rule apply to this scripture and if not can you tell me why not? Thank you Kennyt77 (talk) 20:18, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Granville Sharp was, according to our article, writing about supposed mistranslations of the greek, and expressing his view of a rule pertaining to the greek original. I'm not sure that the rule is applicable to the English translation, for a couple of reasons: the English translation may be suspect (according to GS), and the rule may pertain only in Greek grammar. --Tagishsimon (talk) 21:15, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Chinese instrument

I am looking for a Chinese (or perhaps Japanese) instrument that is pronounced "who", but am unsure of the spelling or type of instrument. Unfortunatley these are all the details I have - Google and Misplaced Pages haven't helped me out much here. Thanks in advance. 92.0.118.76 (talk) 20:38, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Have you had a look through Category:Chinese musical instruments, which sports such things as the Zhu (string instrument) ... or List of traditional Chinese musical instruments? Ditto Category:Japanese musical instruments and Traditional Japanese musical instruments. Good luck. You /might/ want to ask this on the language desk, since someone there may have a clue about whjatever chinese word might resemble the English "who". --Tagishsimon (talk) 21:12, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Do you perhaps mean the erhu? It's pretty well-known in the west, and is sometimes known as the "Chinese violin". Antandrus (talk) 00:20, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Erhu is one type of several grades of the Huqin: "Hu string instrument". I suspect your "Who" refers to the various types of Huqin. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 03:06, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Who owns the freehold of London's roads & why

I'm playing around with articles on London roads & their names right now. And it occurs to me to ask, having read history after history of rich knobs building estates on their land ... who owns the roads? Case in point might be Tottenham Court Road, but the same might as easily be asked of Downing Street or Bedford Square or a hundred others. At the time of their development, the land beneath the roads was squarely owned by a Fitzroy or a Duke of Bedford or whoever. Who now owns the freehold? If not the landed estate (e.g. the Bedfords still own an unheathy amount of property in London), then, in general terms, how & when and at what cost was the freehold passed to the borough authority? --Tagishsimon (talk) 21:08, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I would suspect they count as a public road, i.e. part of the UK's roads - owned and maintained by the government at a cost to the tax-payer through Road Tax. That is unless they remain private roads which could allow them to introduce a toll (like a bridge near my home) to use it. I have no idea about the history of road-ownership but I suspect that the land-owners will have received some form of compensation for their troubles. There is the case of that weird house in the middle of the Pennines that has a bit of history to it (http://www.guardian.co.uk/notesandqueries/query/0,5753,-2193,00.html) around government offering money for the land but the farmer refusing to sell). ny156uk (talk) 22:44, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

According to some of the Notes & Queries replies, and also our article, the house in question remained in place because the M62 motorway had to avoid it for engineering reasons. On your earlier point, roads in the UK are maintained out of general taxation: there has been no such thing as 'Road Tax' for many years. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 23:12, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

It may not be that the crown owns the freehold to all public roads. In English law, there is a concept of right of way whereby the public holds a right of access across privately owned land. To determine the freehold status of a given road, you might need to consult the records at HM Land Registry. Marco polo (talk) 00:44, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Incidentally, OP, you may have meant "rich nob" (nob noun Chiefly British Slang. a person of wealth or social importance). On the other hand you may not. (knob noun Chiefly British Slang. Penis) DJ Clayworth (talk) 14:44, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Note that the UK has Compulsory purchase orders, so ultimately it isn't open to a landowner to refuse to sell land which a public body is determined to acquire. AndyJones (talk) 19:36, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Long ago a phenomenon may have taken place in the UK similar to what took place in the US in rural areas: a farmer would grant the county a free right of way to construct a public road across his land, not purely out of altruism, but because road access increased the value of the land. In other cases the right of way could be acquired through a compulsory public domain process. If the county (or state) adandoned the road, or if a city vacated an alley, it could revert to the owner of the surrounding property. Sometimes a developer buys an entire city block, the city vacates the alley, and the developer builds over the former alley, which is no longer needed. This has the benefit of returning the property to the tax rolls. Edison (talk) 00:13, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Term Limits

Why are there no term limits for US Congress, Senators, and Federal Judges? I know the obvious answer is because the US constitution doesn't impose term limits. But my question is why shouldn't there be term limits? What is the argument for keeping this system. There seem to be arguments against them (i.e., the same arguments that give us term limits for other offices), but I don't quite see the argument for keeping it. Should the constitution be amended? Llamabr (talk) 21:46, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

One of the arguments that I have heard is that "term limits" for congressional representatives happens naturally every other November. That is, if the electorate does not like a particular representative, they are always free to not reelect them. The argument is that it would be improper to countervene the will of the electorate and force a "good" representative out of office, just because he's been reelected a number of times. - Now whether you think that is a good argument is another question. (I'm also not sure of your implication as to the prevalence of term limits in the U.S. Aside from the President, I'm of the impression that term limits are the exception, rather than the rule.) -- 128.104.112.85 (talk) 22:02, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

According to the article United States federal judge the Federal Judges don't have any kind of terms and aren't elected. They are appointed by the current President. Flamarande (talk) 22:11, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Term limits force elected officals out of office at the end of their term. This limits the right of the people to choose to reelect someone who they feel is doing a good job. The people already have the right to impose a term limit themselves by merely not reelecting someone. Thomprod (talk) 01:45, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Back in the early to mid-90s, when the term-limit movement was at its height, the group U.S. Term Limits tried to get term limits imposed on members of Congress. They got initiatives passed in some states putting term limits on U.S. representatives from those states, but the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that those limits were unconstitutional. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 04:26, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

As for "why the President and not Congress"... Congress amends the Constitution. The President just takes the blame. So, Congress is happy to impose a term limit on the President. Don't expect them to impose one on themselves. They are too busy giving themselves raises (with free health care) and blaming whoever the current President is for the cost. -- kainaw™ 02:03, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't know that there'd have to be an amendment to the constitution in order to pass Congressional term limits at a federal level. Previous instances have been struck down in the courts because they were attempts by individual states to impose term-limits on Congress, but Article One of the United States Constitution declares that Congress itself has authority to determine conditions of election and eligibility for its members... AnonMoos (talk) 14:46, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Vehicle registration and inspections

When a rental agency licenses a vehicle in a particular state which requires emissions testing or safety inspections and then the vehicle is driven out of that state, what happens with the tests or inspections? The vehicle may not be back in that state, possibly, for the rest of its ownership by the company. So does the rental company just submit paperwork on all of its thousands of vehicles to the various states or is there some special article of the laws that these companies fall under saying that the vehicle may not be in the state and thus aren't required to get the vehicle tested? Or is it a matter of policing themselves and they are obligated to have them inspected when the time has come and if the vehicle is in the necessary state? This is concerning the laws in the U.S. by the way.... Dismas| 22:59, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Who's to say it won't be back? Every time I've rented a car, I've been informed that if I don't return it to the point of origin, they'll add a $100 relocation fee to my bill. --Carnildo (talk) 23:53, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

What? I didn't say anything about the customer not returning it to the place that it was rented from. Dismas| 00:00, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

So, if the customer either returns the car to the place where it was rented or the rental company returns the car to its place of origin if the customer doesn't, how would the car end up in a different state? In any case, what matters is where the car is registered. The car can be driven anywhere as long as it meets the registration requirements in the state where it is registered. The car must be registered wherever it is regularly kept by its owner, in this case the rental company. For the car to end up in a different state (other than through an accident), the rental company would have to decide to transfer it. It would then need to meet the registration requirements and be registered in the new state. Marco polo (talk) 00:09, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I read some sort of nefarious purpose to Carnildo's response. I'm not implying anything like that. So if the customer returns it to a previously agreed on location, which is not in the same state, what happens? In the last month I've rented two vehicles, both here in Vermont, which have had out of state plates. We have yearly inspections here. So if a Vermont registered vehicle is dropped off in another state, what happens? Dismas| 00:19, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I think that if the rental company intends to keep a car in a different state from the one where it was registered, it needs to register the car in the new state. I know that in Massachusetts, the car's owner is legally required to register a car in Massachusetts within a certain number of days or weeks of garaging a vehicle here (i.e. regularly parking it here overnight). Of course, plenty of people maintain out-of-state registrations on vehicles kept in Massachusetts in order to save on insurance, but it isn't legal. I don't know whether car rental companies skirt these laws. Marco polo (talk) 01:23, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Interesting (maybe) fact: all U-Haul vehicles are registered in Arizona. --Nricardo (talk) 01:11, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Bharata Janata Party West Bengal and Tripura leaders

Who are the leaders of the Bharata Janata Party of West Bengal and Tripura? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Don Mustafa (talk • contribs) 23:01, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

The best way to find out would be to email them directly an ask; details can be found on the BJP website under "State Offices" Samilong (talk) 11:50, 20 March 2008 (UTC)samilong

March 20

H Donald-Frith H Donald Smith, portrait painter

Was there a portrait painter with a name like this? - Kittybrewster ☎ 00:46, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

There was a William Powell Frith, an English portraitist. Is that useful? ៛ Bielle (talk) 02:38, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Not the chap I am looking for. I think I am looking for H Donald Smith and would appreciate it if someone would create an article. - Kittybrewster ☎ 00:32, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Homelessness

I live in an area (40 by 40 blocks) where homelessness is rampant. Area businesses have learned to cope somewhat with people begging for money outside of their establishments. The area was originally developed to provide low cost housing for State university students but for the most part now has been turned into section 8 (low cost government funded) housing. The crux of the problem is drug and alcohol abuse for the hard core homeless and a mental inability or unwillingness to work to earn money for rent, food or clothing on the part of most of the remainder. I'm looking for a private or public agency or project or some other way to address all parts of this socio-economic problem. My thoughts are that some form of mental disability award could be made, but there are many critics to this solution who do not live in or near an area with this problem or stand any chance of ever having this problem themselves. These people need a life jacket or lifeboat and I have no idea where to turn. 71.100.10.177 (talk) 09:50, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

If you're in Alberta, I suggest you contact your MLA. (Since you didn't say where you live, I have to assume you live where I do. Everyone does, don't they?) --NellieBly (talk) 03:21, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Edit conflict: Thanks, no sorry, not Alberta, Canada. I live in the USA, in the State of Florida, in the County of Hillsborough. The City just South of the area in question is not as tolerant (if that is the correct word) of the Homeless as the County, hence one of the reasons that a large population of homeless exists just over the City line in the County. What most people do not really understand including the Deputies who patrol the area that while they are required to pay rent just as I most of these people are unable although it may appear they are only unwilling. It would probably take a psychologist or psychiatrist to comprehend the effect and power of the metal block that stands in the way which can only be removed after the person has be rescued. Its kind of like being overboard with two broken legs and being chastised for not helping to power the ocean liner by kicking when what is needed is a lifeboat and splints until the legs are healed rather than the requirement or demand to start kicking. Surely there must be a world wide homeless organization that knows and understands this and can offer some clear direction. Going to the County Commissioners is a good idea but not without a plan. I need an organization which in fact has a plan. 71.100.10.177 (talk) 09:50, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

No, Section 8 is a US program. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 04:22, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Behind The Choir of Hard Knocks was the recognition of lack of quality of life at this level – something that makes people want to get up in the morning. I googled "homelessness solutions USA" and there are discussions but there might be avenues of funding. Thing about the Choir is it raised people's regard for the participants – and while it began in one city, it caught on in another. I forget where (maybe UK?) that someone implemented a scheme that fostered "responsibility" (or a response at least) by getting people involved in organising something to do with their housing development. It just gave some dynamic to thinking as well as living at that level. Myabe you could get in touch with people who are active in this way. Have you seen our article Street newspapers? There's also The Big Issue as an example of this. Julia Rossi (talk) 07:06, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

• Unfortunately the homeless are rarely screened for entertainment talent but that is a very good idea. Theater might become an avenue for the homeless. I can think of any number of plays that reiterate the plight of the down and out. Who better to play the parts? A very good idea.
• Fostering "responsibility" seems to reflect a common misunderstanding. These people are very responsible. The problem is that they do not want to waste it. They do not want to be responsible for getting a job done, for instance, on behalf of someone else that drains them of even the will to live while making the other person far better off in comparison in exchange for a meal and a place to stay the night. They are people who have been robbed and who do not want to let themselves be robbed again.
• In America in places where buildings have been all but abandoned and the homeless have asserted squatter's rights, in some cases the government has supported their claims especially through adverse possession laws and an occupancy of longer than 7 years. In the area under discussion, however, many homeless wander the area looking for toilet facilities and have taken up residence across from the County bus terminal on the sidewalk so they can use the facilities as soon as they are open. Public toilets, aside from this, are non-existent in America by design forcing the homeless to search out private facilities. One of the most cherished jobs for the homeless is the job of being the first to arrive in the morning and to clean the bathrooms and police the property for trash before the fast food restaurant opens. The job can lead to things like working the grill when the restaurant opens. Many homeless have personality problems as mental disabilities so such jobs may not last long. 71.100.10.177 (talk) 09:50, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Would you mind signing with four of these things ~? It's hard to know which non-signer is speaking. Cheers, Julia Rossi (talk) 09:39, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Auto signing should be standard and manual override the exception as well as stable sidebar frames. etc. 71.100.10.177 (talk) 09:50, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

If I understand you right, you're looking for ideas? You're looking for stories of programs (anywhere in the world) that have had success in helping the homeless? Here are the ones I found:

Shared Learnings on Homelessness resource website

Care 2 message board discussion: Preventing Homelessness

5days.ca student awareness campaign

Seattle's FareStart job training program for the homeless

WGBH TV program on successful programs in Massachussetts

newspaper article on Philadelphia's phenomenal success helping the homeless

In addition, you might be interested in Do Something, a website that helps people channel a general desire to help into manageable, concrete actions. WikiJedits (talk) 14:51, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Correct. County Social Services has a Homeless Recovery Unit. They do not, unfortunately have a Homeless Rescue Unit. One gets the feeling County Services exist to recover the dead rather than than to rescue the living. Anyway I forwarded the information you have graciously provided to both the HRU by phone and to the Social Services director by email. The ball is now in their court, but in absence of any positive response I will look at each link myself and see what I might present to the County Commission. The non alcoholic or drug abuser homeless are more than willing to accept a fast food restaurant gift certificate. County Services at the urging of the County Commission might be able to provide them with food vouchers if the existing Catch-22 can be dropped. Currently residency must be proven to qualify for help from the County and proof of address is not possible for the homeless. 71.100.10.177 (talk) 03:11, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Yesterday I watched on DVD the 1936 film My Man Godfrey which has a theme of homelesness in the US - "the Forgotten Men" - so things havnt changed much. In Britain a magazine called The Big Issue is sold by homeless people on the street, as a way of getting them back into regular employment. I think the founder tried to start the same thing in the US, but as far as I recall it was not a success. I believe that here in the UK local governments have a legal responsibility to house the homeless, and there are also temporary Salvation Army hostels and night shelters for the homeless. They are probably first in line for council housing which is effectively free housing if you have no income. I would like to think that nobody in the UK who does not want to be homeless has to be (leaving just the insane and the addicted homeless) but I'm not certain if that is true. Recently a formerly very-well paid television journalist Ed Mitchell has been the subject of a tv documentary and numberous newspaper articles. He used to have a luxury house but spent all his money on alcohol and gambling and ended up sleeping rough. Although in my experience begging is a rarity here, I believe the policy by homeless charities is that you should not give them money as they spend it on alcohol or drugs, and the free food given out by some charities in central London, such as the buddists, may be misguided as it also disencourages people to get off the streets. 80.0.102.40 (talk) 11:06, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

update

Okay, since my original post I have learned that all of the major fast food chains now offer gift cards that you can put money on in the same way as cards used for copy machines. Cards can be traded for booze or drugs but not as easily as cash so handing a homeless person a gift card instead of cash may avoid the dilemma of providing hard core alcoholic or drug abuser more drugs or alcohol.

The other thing I have learned is the best thing property owners and government can do for the homeless is to eliminate places where they can sleep illegally. This means tearing down abandoned buildings and clearing overgrown areas. What this does is force the homeless to seek help from the government so correspondingly the government has to be ready to help. In the case here its a matter of overcoming the Catch-22 that an address is required as a prerequisite for obtaining government help. 71.100.10.177 (talk) 08:09, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Divorce and women in the Middle Ages

I've been reading the Wife of Bath's tale from Chaucer. Clearly a woman of the world! This got me thinking of the position of independent minded women in the middle ages. The catholic church allowed divorce for non consumation of marriage. Are there any records of women taking action along these lines and, if so, how did the case proceed?Alisoun of Bath (talk) 13:34, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Not quite what you are looking for, but you still might be interested to read about Eleanor of Aquitaine, who was quite insistent about getting an annulment from her first husband. It was granted in 1152. But it wasn't for nonconsummation; they had two daughters and had been married 15 years. It was for consanguinity (they were distant cousins). (That was a far more common reason for annulment, btw).

Another feisty woman was Ingeborg of Denmark – her husband tried to annul their marriage in 1193 citing nonconsummation but she fought back, insisting on her rights. Unfortunately, her husband then locked her up for 14 years.

It may be hard to find what you want because nonconsummation seems to have been usually only invoked in cases of child marriage. See page 299 in this book. WikiJedits (talk) 14:37, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, in the Carolingian church (according to Frances and Joseph Gies. Marriage and the Family in the Middle Ages. ISBN 0060914688.) valid grounds for divorce were: adultery, servile status, leprosy, lack of consent, impotence, one's partner becoming a monk or a nun. Not failure to produce children, much to Lothair II's annoyance when he tried to divorce Theutberga. He created this complicated story of incest, sodomy, witchcraft and abortion (he had to explain why he had acknowledged her virginity with a morgengabe and went a little overboard it seems). She insisted on a trial by ordeal, which her champion won, clearing her name. That didn't stop Lothair from continuing to try on different grounds for eight years until Theutberga was ready for an end and entered a convent.

The Anglo-Saxons were perhaps more equitable than others; under Aethelbert a woman was entitled to half the family's goods if she decided to leave with her children, and a share even if her husband kept them. But it seems Anglo-Saxon kings could dismiss their wives without any church interference.

Anyways, our article doesn't mention it, but the Fourth Lateran Council reduced the consanguinity ban from seventh to fourth degree to prevent more situations like Eleanor of Aquitaine's, where the couple sought annulment after years of marriage, claiming their weren't aware of the relation. Was never really a problem for peasants who didn't keep track of family trees. Bigamy was the more common grounds for divorce it seems. (Doesn't surprise me since you could be considered married simply by saying, "I will have you as my wife," rather than "I will take you as my wife.")

So far on how a case proceeded, divorce based on non-consummation meant checking the wife's virginity. Apparently in 15th century England there were provisions for checking the husband's impotence as well (interestingly, my book mentions that in some places this was done by appointing "seven honest women" to test him). — Laura Scudder ☎ 21:19, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I can give you, Alisoun, some words that might appeal to the Wife of Bath herself! Here they are;

"The...witness exposed her bared breasts and with her hands, warmed at the fire, she held and rubbed John's penis and testicles, embracing and frequently kissing him. And she stirred him up to demonstrate his virility and potency then and there."

"She says the whole time the said penis was scarcely three inches long... remaining without any increase."

Did I make these statements up? No, of course not! They can be found in the records of the Bishops' Court of York for 1433! Clio the Muse (talk) 02:54, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Medieval marriage, and therefore annulment, was quite different to our modern institution. You might be interested to read this earlier discussion, which was about consanguinity, but I got distracted and talked about marriage and annulment more generally. Gwinva (talk) 19:51, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Medieval crime and punishment

I have another question about life in the middle ages, if I may. We think of the period as one of savage violence, both in crime and in punishment. Was crime peceived to be out of control and is that why punishments were so severe?Alisoun of Bath (talk) 13:32, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm guessing that most medieval punishments were based on the principle of retributive justice rather than rehabilitation. --Bowlhover (talk) 22:22, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

...or restitution. —Tamfang (talk) 19:47, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

And there's the also the perspective of the times to consider. They would probably consider our current forms of enlightened punishment, in the main, to be incomprehensibly and stupidly lenient. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:54, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, the question is somewhat flawed. It was not a period of savage violence; sometimes, in some places throughout the thousand years of medieval history, there was of course savage violence, but is this any different from anywhere else at any other time? Crime was sometimes out of control; sometimes there wasn't much crime at all, the same as now. Punishments were sometimes severe, sometimes not. I think punishments were surprisingly lenient sometimes! Actions that would lead to a criminal trial today were often dealt with under common law in the middle ages; assault, for example, was almost always punished by a fine, and the size of the fine depended on the social status of the assaulted and the assaulter. But on the other hand, there could be severe corporal punishment for crimes that would today carry a relatively lenient punishment (repeat offenses, like a third case of robbery, could be punished by chopping off a limb or two). My two favourite medieval laws/punishments, from Jerusalem (with which I am most familiar, although there are parallels in other societies) are that a man can kill his wife and/or her lover if he catches them in bed together, but he is not allowed to kill both of them; and if a man sexually assaults another man's Muslim slave, his testicles will be cut off. These are certainly nothing like any laws we have now! But as I said, laws and punishments are so varied across time and space that you can't have one set that applies everywhere at the same time. The only constant I can think of is that there were no prisons, which I suppose is because prisons require a stronger central administration and bureaucracy that was usually lacking in the middle ages. The counter-example to that is the Byzantine Empire, which did have prisons. So, I hope this answer has not been too vague or rambling; medieval crime and punishment is a very complex topic, and I could give you pages and pages of more examples, none of which would apply to all of Europe at any one time! Adam Bishop (talk) 01:04, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

(Hmm, I should clarify that there were universal laws and punishments, namely canon law, which applies to the previous question about marriage, and Roman law, which carried over into the middle ages in the Corpus Iuris Civilis. But still, there was no single law code that would have covered all crimes for, say, someone in Spain in 500 and someone in Poland in 1500.) Adam Bishop (talk) 01:48, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

In considering the kind of issues raised by this question, Alisoun, you might begin with Johan Huizinga's classic study, The Waning of the Middle Ages, where he says that crime was "...a menace to order and society, as well as an insult to divine majesty. Thus it was natural that the late Middle Ages should become the special period of judicial cruelty."

One has to consider punishment in this context, not so much as retribution but as spectacle more than anything else. It should not be assumed, moreover, that this was simply a top-down process, a way of 'educating' the community in the severity of the law. There was also a considerable amount of popular pressure for criminals to receive forms of punishment that were both harsh and terrifying. In 1389 in England Popular pressure persuaded Parliament to petition the king for the limiting of pardons granted for violent crimes.

The Middle Ages were violent for one reason or another. Legitimate and public violence was considered to be the only way of dealing with illegitimate and private violence. There was no prison, so all punishment had to carry some deterrent purpose; either the absolute deterrence of execution, or relative forms of deterrence implied in mutilation of one kind or other, which required the wrongdoer to live forever in the community carrying the stigma of his or her error. In A Distant Mirror: The Calamitous Fourteenth Century, Barbara Tuchman writes;

The torture and punishments of civil justice customarily cut of hands and ears, racked, burned, flayed, and pulled apart people's bodies. In everyday life, passers-by saw some criminal flogged with a knotted rope or chained upright in an iron collar. They passed corpses hanging on the gibbet and decapitated heads and quartered bodies impaled on stakes on the city walls.

Yes, it was terror; but it was also about forms of reassurance: that justice was being served and society protected: the more extreme the crime, the more extreme the punishment. Even 'clemency', when it was exercised, was, if anything, even more barbarous. In England in 1221 one Thomas of Eldersfield was reprieved from hanging at the last moment. In a show of ‘mercy’ he was blinded and castrated instead! Robert Bartlett described the scene that followed, "...the eyes were thrown to the ground and the testicles used as footballs, the local lads kicking them playfully at the girls." It was all part of the salutary spectacle.

It would be wrong to assume, though, that the didactic purpose of punishment ended with the Middle Ages. In Discipline and Punish, Michael Foucault describes the gothic intensity with which Robert-François Damiens was done to death in 1757 for the attempted assassination of Louis XV. It was the apotheosis, it might be said, of execution as public display; of natural and divinely-ordained retribution. Clio the Muse (talk) 02:30, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

In addition to the books Clio mentioned, you may also be interested in Roman Law in European History by Peter Stein, Medieval Canon Law by James Brundage, and Trial by Fire and Water by the aforementioned Robert Bartlett. There are also numerous editions of actual legal codes that are fun to read, like the Germanic ones edited by Katharine Fischer Drew. I notice there is also a book called "Medieval justice: Cases and laws in France, England, and Germany, 500-1500" by Hunt Janin, which fits this topic and discussion perfectly, but unfortunately I am not familiar with it (Clio? Anyone?). Adam Bishop (talk) 07:39, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

North and South

Do the themes explored in Elizabeth Gaskell's novel North and South indicate that she was opposed to the political economy of the day?

From above: "Do your own homework. The reference desk will not give you answers for your homework, although we will try to help you out if there is a specific part of your homework you do not understand. Make an effort to show that you have tried solving it first." Marskell (talk) 15:20, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Have you read it? AllenHansen (talk) 16:10, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, have you read North and South? If you really want to know what Elizabeth Gaskell's view of political economy I would draw your particular attention to the passage where John Hale, the factory owner, gives Nicholas Higgins a book to correct his 'sad mistakes' about wages. In this poor benighted Higgins will discover that “wages find their own level, and that the most successful strike can only force them up for a moment, to sink in far greater proportion afterwards, in consequence of that very strike." Margaret Hales' vision of harmony between capital and labour is essentially that of John Bright, who argued that employers should always follow the road of 'enlightened self-interest' when dealing with their employees. There is no reason to suppose that Gaskell thought any differently. Clio the Muse (talk) 01:37, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I've been working on the mini series article all day. Such an awesome serial, go rent it!--Yamanbaiia 18:30, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Is the Swiss Franc still immune from inflation?

I heard that the Swiss Frank is immune from inflation, but the swiss franc article says

So...is it still immune from inflation, or is that a relic of the past, over as of 2000?

No currency is immune from inflation. Even when a gold standard existed, inflation could and did occur, for example in countries with trade surpluses. Prices in Switzerland are higher today than they were 30 or 40 years ago. Switzerland has a lower rate of inflation than most other countries, but it has inflation. Marco polo (talk) 15:37, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

when you talk about prices being higher, that could mean in real terms too, though. For example, prices in a small community in America could triple over a one-year period, but that doesn't mean the value of a dollar in real terms is reduced! So, if I am interested in using Franks as a medium to store value, against inflation that could strike dollar-denominated alternatives, I don't care about prices in Switzerland.....

Switzerland is small country with a population of 7.5 Mio.

One of the main industries is banking.

The country has a system of bank secrecy which would be impossible to maintain in the EU (or almost elsewhere, as far as I know).

If the banking system was forced to become transparent, massive amounts of investments would flow out of the country. After that, it would be easily confused with Swaziland.

The inflation rate in Switzerland is 0.6%, in Swaziland it is 6%. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 00:21, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Cockatoo is no doubt right that Switzerland benefits from its unique banking sector. However, bank secrecy is not the country's only asset. The banking sector has an unusual level of expertise in international finance for a small country that would allow it to retain international clients even without secrecy. Moreover, Switzerland has a much more developed infrastructure than Swaziland, which makes its real economy (outside the financial sector) much more efficient than that of Swaziland. Also, Switzerland has an internationally competitive precision instrument manufacturing sector (whose products are not limited to its famous watches), a strong food processing sector, a strong pharmaceutical industry and perhaps Europe's strongest biotech sector, and, due to its scenery and proximity to many other affluent nations, a strong tourism sector. I don't think that Switzerland is in any danger of resembling Swaziland in our lifetimes. Marco polo (talk) 01:14, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I neglected to add that while the Swiss franc has done well against the dollar in recent years, future movements of currencies are very hard to predict. At a certain point, Switzerland's real economy will start to be hurt by the high value of the franc, which makes its exports less affordable. Its central bankers will then be under pressure to ease interest rates to help cheapen the franc. Also, the current strength of the franc is a function of foreign investors' risk aversion. At a certain point, the appetite for risk will return, and therer will be a sell-off and a sharp drop in the relative value of the franc. So, if you decide to invest in francs, you may need to be nimble. Marco polo (talk) 01:19, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

A picture of Wilhelm Liebknecht, Karl Marx and three of their comrades

Once ı saw a picture of Wilhelm Liebknecht, Karl Marx and three of their comrades on wikipedia. I can't find it. Can you provide it? Thanks in advance.

This image from commons fits your description, but it doesn't seem to be in use on the English wikipedia. DAVID ŠENEK 18:04, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

The other three comrades are August Bebel, Carl Wilhelm Tölcke (redlink! but there is de:Carl Wilhelm Tölcke), and Ferdinand Lassalle.  --Lambiam 19:33, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

It looks like someone took the initiative to create the redlink. bibliomaniac15 Midway upon life's journey... 22:06, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

It amuses me to read that Lassalle and Marx were 'comrades'! They had enjoyed a reasonably cordial epistolary relationship, though this changed after Marx spent a month in Berlin in 1861 as the guest of Lassalle and the Countess Sophie von Hartzfeld. It was all far too bourgeois for the great prophet of revolution, and Lassalle himself altogether too vain, self-important and pompous. In correspondence with Friedrich Engels Marx began to refer to his 'comrade' as 'Lazarus', 'Baron Izzy', or, more distastefully, as 'the Jewish nigger', a comment on his dark complexion. "It is now quite plain to me," he told Engels, "as the shape of his head and the way his hair grows also testify, that he is descended from the Negros who accompanied Moses’ flight from Egypt (unless his mother or paternal grandfather interbred with a nigger)." The heavy-handed humour of the day, one supposes. Clio the Muse (talk) 01:22, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

agriculture,writing

There is a link is there not between the introduction of human agriculture (eg seed crops - wheat etc) , and the development of writing - or at least written records.

Q. Who have put forward this idea of a link, and who were the first? (to notice the connection)83.100.183.180 (talk) 18:26, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

As to why this might come about: agriculture means that grain and other crops can be grown beyond immediate needs, with the surplus being stored or traded, and a consequent need to keep records. Some early "writing" systems used little molded clay token to represent a jar of grain or such, eventually followed by impressions of a peice of clay in lieu of molded tokens. Agriculture engendered accounting, by this notion. Of course hunting could have similarly produced a need for record keeping, if pelts were traded. Animal husbandry produced a need to track sheep ownership. Mining and smelting could similarly produce a need for record keeping. Edison (talk) 18:56, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

(after edit conflict) Agriculture was developed at least 10,000 years ago, but the history of writing does not nearly go back that far. The oldest written forms of symbolic communication ("proto-writing") emerged in the 7th millennium BCE, with true writing (recorded human language) dating from the late 4th millennium BCE. With a gap of several millenia between the two innovations, any causal link can hardly be direct and strong. This is not to say there is no connection at all. Generally speaking, the development of writing can only flourish in a sedentary culture with enough division of labour to sustain a class of scribes, and that kind of culture is only possible when agriculture is sufficiently advanced. This equally applies to other professions, such as blacksmithing or architecture.  --Lambiam 18:59, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, you've given me some extra things to think about - metalworking is especially interesting, I need to explore more any link between transmutation or ore to metal, and the change in human behaviour (to a sedentary lifestyle as mentioned above) have a direct connect eg our muscles become weak but the iron becomes stronger - does correllation imply causation. Thanks again.83.100.183.180 (talk) 20:57, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Frederick the Great and religious belief

Was he a sceptic or not?

That is somewhat hard to answer also for lack of a precise definition of the notion of sceptic. Being a sceptic is not absolute; most people are sceptic about some things (like supporters of creationism are sceptical about evolution theory), and most self-identifying sceptics hold to some tenets (like the power of reason). According to our article on the man, his father was raised a devout Calvinist and feared he was not one of the elect. To avoid the possibility of his heir Frederick having the same fear, the king ordered that he not be taught about predestination. Although he was largely irreligious, Frederick adopted this tenet of Calvinism, despite his father's efforts. This paragraph in the article concludes: It is unknown if the crown prince did this to spite his father, or out of genuine religious belief. Adopting the predestination tenet of Calvinism does not quite jibe with being a wool-died sceptic, so if he was known to be a sceptic, historians would have concluded that he did not do this "out of genuine religious belief".

Frederick the Great had a long-lasting friendship and correspondence with Voltaire, who is often considered a sceptic. It appears, however, that Voltaire, although a free-thinker for the period in which he lived and critical of the Catholic Church and in fact all establishment, was likely not an atheist. Apparently, he even had a chapel erected on his estate at Ferney.  --Lambiam 20:48, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Frederick had a somewhat instrumental view of the social and political function of religion. His own personal views are, I think, better described as agnostic, rather than sceptical. He also had a tendency to see elements of good and bad in all religions. It was only atheism that he condemned outright, because it served to undermine the function of religion in securing social solidarity and cohesion. Above all, in Frederick's scheme of things, religion was necessary to secure obedience among the governed. Adherence to strict religious principles was not necessary for a ruler, though, and Frederick feely confesses that his ancestors became Lutherans, not out of any great religious conviction, but in order to acquire church property. They later became Calvinist for the same instrumental reason: to maintain better relations with the Dutch, and thus facilitate the acquisition of Cleves. Of all the eighteenth century rulers Frederick was the most tolerant, extending his protection to all religions and sects, even to the Jesuits. The sole exception to this general policy of toleration was the Jews, whom he condemned as practitioners of usury. Clio the Muse (talk) 00:53, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I've always thought that Frederick was somewhat suspicious of the Jews extensive ties all over the world. AllenHansen (talk) 18:46, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Heroes of their time

Is it possible to draw any comparison at all between Lermontov's Pechorin and Goncharov's Oblomov, or are they simply opposite extremes? Yermolov (talk) 20:37, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

What do you think? Try listing similarities and differences. AllenHansen (talk) 21:40, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Yermolov, in the very first detailed analysis of Mikhail Lermontov's A Hero of Our Time, Vissarion Belinsky, one of the leading Russian critics of the day, said that figures like Grigory Aleksandrovich Pechorin were inevitable in that period of history, the Russia of Nicholas I-"That is how the hero of our time must be. He will be characterized either by determined inactivity or else by futile activity." He will be characterised, in other words by passive conformity or pointless personal rebellion. If Pechorin represents the one pole-that of futile activity-then the eponymous hero of Ivan Goncharov's Oblomov surely represents the other, in all its passive indolence. They may illustrate opposite extremes; but for all that they are complimentary extremes, distinct symptoms of the Russia of Tsarist absolutism. Clio the Muse (talk) 00:31, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Case study on Anonymous

Before Anonymous (group) attacked Scientology I could do a google search for Anonymous and get what I want, but now I'm having trouble.

There was a satirical paper I read on the net, and it was an investigation on "Who is Anonymous?" Anonymous is responsible for many great literary works in history, and must have been one great mind! That's how I remember it. I need to find it again. 22:33, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

In Google, use the "-" operator to disclude any pages containing that word. Eg, "anonymous -scientology" --76.192.189.206 (talk) 14:30, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

University Applications

One of my acquintences claim that most Universities use computers to process applications, does this apply to a lot of universities, if any at all?

I'd be extremely surprised if the vast majority of unis don't use computers to process applications. But I don't know that as a fact. And I guess it depends on what you mean by "process". -- JackofOz (talk) 23:49, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry about the identical wording, but a near miss edit conflict with JackofOz.

I would be surprised if there is a single tertiary institution which does not use database systems for the entire logistics of their operations.

I can´t give you a proper reference, but I have just checked about a dozen universities in the EU and in Australia and all of them seem to have student admin systems (not accessible to random browsers, but clearly there).

Out of curiosity, what makes you think this is odd ? Every government agency, every bank, every hospital and virtually every dime store at the next corner uses IT. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 23:56, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

One large public university in the midwestern US used a point system several decades ago for grad school admission. A regression formula assigned points for the GRE score, the undergraduate GPA, the quality of the undergrad school (determined somehow) the quality of the references (scored by a reader), and extra points simply fro being from certain racial minority groups. Extra points were added for publications and assistantships. The number thus calculated screened out the clear rejects. Naturally, offspring of large donors or politically prominent families got special consideration, regardless. The ones who were likely to get admitted got additional screening by a committee to make sure nothing dodgy jumped out, and the marginal ones got extra examination to choose the more promising ones, or to fill particular needs of the faculty. Books in the last five years or so about admission to selective undergrad programs in the U.S. said that the applications all got read, but some were clear rejects (excepting the connected or athletic) based on grades, test scores, and the quality of the high school, and some were clear admits, with the committee spending most time on the marginal cases. It would be irresponsible for a college charging an application fee not to track each application on a computer too follow its process, so as to make sure none were lost and to know how the class was filling up. Human scorers doubtless read the essays. Edison (talk) 00:05, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

It would be more common in larger universities than smaller ones. But you'd be surprised how much is read by a human as well. My wife worked as an admissions officer at a number of universities and she says they read just a ton of applications and essays and really put a lot of thought into it. While I don't think a system of the magnitude of the University of California can do something quite as comparable, these weren't the smallest schools, either. --Captain Ref Desk (talk) 01:51, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

At least the University of Michigan must (have?) use(d?) a point system as this university was sued for its affirmative action program, which assigned extra points for being from a racial minority (compare what Edison wrote), see Gratz v. Bollinger; anyways, the use of points for affirmative action seems to be discontinued (read last paragraph of intro of University of Michigan... another sad example against grassroots democracy). BTW, the point system itself was never challenged in court, and I'd bet that this is what most schools with hundreds and thousands of applicants use.

Personally, if a point or grading system is used (and I'm not sure there's a better way to make dozens or sometimes even thousands of applications, read by different readers, comparable), I don't find any odds in having computers do the scoring for obvious calls, such as points awarded for certain test scores (which stink anyways), grades depending on school, etc. I would guess the only reason that many schools don't do this is that it might not pay off programming so many options and exceptions (e.g., the number of international schools, weighted with quality or whatever...). --Ibn Battuta (talk) 14:32, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Is it possible that the OP meant "process applications" in the sense of using OCR software to read them? That might make it a more reasonable question. Daniel (‽) 17:43, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Daring medical rescue

Nearly a decade ago, I saw this thing on TV. It was about a medical rescue by Navy SEALs. A man was with his family on a pleasure yacht. He somehow got injured or sick. The affected area was turning gangrenous. Someone radioed for help. The Navy sent their SEALs to rescue the man and his family. Eventually, the man got the medical help he needed. Does anybody know what I may be referring to?72.229.136.18 (talk) 23:10, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

March 21

Economies of the Home Countries

It has often been said that if California would be a country of its own, it would have the fifth economy in the world. How about the four Home Countries? If England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland would become independent, how would their economies compare to the economies of existing countries? Aecis 00:14, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

This took some calculation and extrapolation from existing statistics. The most recent statistics on GDP for subunits of the UK seem to be these numbers from 1998. Unfortunately, the subunits covered here do not correspond directly to the Home Counties as our article defines them. These numbers include Bedfordshire, Oxfordshire, and Sussex as well as the Home Counties more narrowly defined. Using this source, I found GDP in sterling for the UK as a whole in 2007. Then I estimated the 2007 values of GDP for the UK subunits assuming that they were in the same proportion to national GDP as in 1998. I know that this assumption isn't accurate, as I seem to recall seeing that the Southeast has grown faster than the UK as a whole, while Wales has grown more slowly, but this was the best that I could do to come up with numbers that would allow comparisons to our table of 2007 GDP for countries of the world. Comparing the UK and its subunits to this list, I found that the UK has the world's 6th largest economy. England alone would have the 9th largest (between those of Brazil and Russia, both of which have much larger populations). The Home Counties (including Bedfordshire, Oxfordshire, and Sussex) would have the 33rd largest economy, between those of Belgium and Bangladesh. Scotland would have the 53rd largest, between Nigeria (with over 100 million people) and Morocco. Wales would have the 64th, between Belarus and Ethiopia; and Northern Ireland would have the 71st, between Oman and Lithuania. As I have said, these comparisons probably understate the size of the economy of England and the Home Counties (whose economy is probably really larger than that of Belgium if the three outer counties are included) and overstate the size of the economy of Wales. Marco polo (talk) 02:26, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Don't think he intended to ask about "home counties" (i.e. southeast of England separarate from the rest of England) at all... AnonMoos (talk) 06:03, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your calculations and work, Marco polo, but I'm afraid my question was about the Home Countries, the four constituent parts of the United Kingdom, not about the Home Counties. Your answer did provide me with a lot of information though. I'm baffled why Scotland, with its massive oil and gas reserves, would only be equivalent to Morocco and Nigeria (with all due respect to those countries, obviously) and why Wales and Northern Ireland would rank so low. If I interpret these figures correctly, this would make the latter two the poorest areas of Europe. Aecis 11:24, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I've lived in Britain all my long life, yet I've never heard of the expression "home countries" before. I think it is a mistake, unless perhaps it is an expression used in say the 19th. century during the days of empire. The Home counties are those counties that border on London. London or South-east England would, if taken sperately, have a large GDP greater than many countries. 80.2.192.179 (talk) 13:00, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

List of countries by GDP (PPP) per capita is more relevant than overall GDP, or alternatively limit the GDP comparisons to countries of similar size and in the same region. For Scotland that would mean Denmark, Finland, Ireland and Norway. The statistics place Scotland last among the five, and a long way behind Norway, but that does not seem unreasonable.

The figures shown in Wales and Northern Ireland, on the other hand, seem improbably low, in the same range as the Baltic States or even Poland. I don't believe that these can be at all accurate. As for England, it is such a large part of the United Kingdom that removing Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales would make relatively little different to the GDP or GDP per capita. It might be that England would be one or two places lower on the List of countries by GDP (PPP) than the UK, but it might also creep up the per capita list. Angus McLellan (Talk) 13:39, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

On a per capita basis, England would show a number slightly higher than the UK as a whole, close to Germany. Wales would have a higher per capita number than the Baltic States or Poland. The per capita number for Wales would be comparable to that for New Zealand. Northern Ireland's per capita number would actually be slightly higher than that for New Zealand and a bit below that for the Republic of Ireland. Marco polo (talk) 16:09, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

That isn't what the Wales & NI articles say: Wales 19,546 USD; NI 19,603 USD. I don't doubt you're nearer the truth than those are, but if you can find a reference it would be worth fixing those articles. Angus McLellan (Talk) 19:44, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Paul Scofield and Sir Thomas More

The sad passing of Paul Scofield prompts this question. What exactly does it mean when the title "Sir" is given to someone (for example, Sir Thomas More)? And where exactly does it come from? Also, am I correct to assume it is not a part of the person's legal name ... but, rather, a title no different than Mister or Doctor or Senator or the like? If so, why are these individuals referred to (for example, in Misplaced Pages articles) as "Sir". That is, why do we always refer to More as Sir Thomas More when we don't necessarily refer to George Bush as President George Bush? Thanks. PS: Rest in Peace, Paul Scofield. (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 00:16, 21 March 2008 (UTC))

"Sir" means the person has been given a knighthood. I think that it is a title and does not form part of the person's name from a legal perspective. But from a cultural perspective, it may as well be part of their name. More would have been addressed as "Sir Thomas" (not Sir More, btw), and any references to him that weren't confined to his surname would be as "Sir Thomas More". Former U.S. presidents are called "President <name>", but that's more a courtesy title. -- JackofOz (talk) 00:42, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

"Sir" also applies in the case of a baronetcy, which can be thought of as an hereditary knighthood, although it's not a knighthood as such. Incumbent U.S. presidents are entitled to be called "President <name>" in formal settings, but we tend to drop the title when talking about them between ourselves or in the media, because it's cumbersome and it's clear who we're talking about. But we much less often refer to Queen Elizabeth II as simply "Elizabeth". -- JackofOz (talk) 00:50, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Interestingly enough, though, the wife of a knight or baronet is Lady <last name> rather than paralleling the male styling. — Laura Scudder ☎ 01:09, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

So, how do you know when someone "takes on" the new name ... how do you know when he becomes knighted? For example, let's hypothetically say that Thomas More was knighted on January 1, 2000. So, prior to that date (up until December 31, 1999), he would be simply "Thomas More". And, on January 1, 2000 (and thereafter), he would be correctly known as "Sir Thomas More". How would we know when the correct date (and accompanying name change) occurs? Thanks. (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 08:42, 21 March 2008 (UTC))

"Honours Lists" in UK are published by the London Gazette - a UK registered as a newspaper published by Authority and established on 1665. If you want a list please visit this website. Probably this answers your question. -- FayssalF - 09:15, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

And what I am really getting at is this. In the film A Man for All Seasons, is Paul Scofield playing a character / role by the name of Thomas More or of Sir Thomas More? That is, if More was knighted prior to his death, Scofield's character / role is "Sir Thomas More". If More was knighted after his death, Scofield's character / role is only "Thomas More". Am I correct? And how would I know which? Thanks. (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 08:45, 21 March 2008 (UTC))

He was knighted in 1521, long before his death. Adam Bishop (talk) 08:57, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Posthumous knighthood is currently impossible (as several petitions have discovered) and, as far as I know, always has been. Algebraist 10:48, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

You might compare it with the title "Dr" in some ways. Before his doctorate is awarded, John Smith is just John Smith. Afterwards he is Dr John Smith. SaundersW (talk) 13:30, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, there's been no case of a posthumous knighthood I've ever heard of. There was a bit of a campaign to get George Harrison one such gong, but it went nowhere; his fans simply left their run too late. The media sometimes erroneously reports a "posthumous knighthood", where a person accepted the honour but died before it was publicly announced. Sir Henry Cotton is a well-known case. In such cases, the date of effect is made retrospective to a date no later than the date of their death, whereas every other new knighthood is with effect from the date the Honours List is promulgated. These awards are always communicated privately first, to see if the person actually wants to accept it, and if they do they have to keep their trap shut in the meantime (if they don't want it, they're supposed to never reveal the award was ever even offered). Paul Scofield himself declined a knighthood three times. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:39, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for all of the input. So, in the UK ... the honor is bestowed by the Queen ... to whom? Whoever she sees fit? Thanks. (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 05:36, 22 March 2008 (UTC))

This article has some useful information. In short, the process varies by the order of knighthood to be conferred. Carom (talk) 05:44, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

But to answer your specific question, there are certain awards said to be "in the monarch's personal gift", such as the Royal Victorian Order. She can, of her own volition and without consulting anyone at all, decide that Joe Bloggs is a nice man and deserves to become Sir Joseph Bloggs KCVO. But the ones not in her personal gift are decided by committees, governments and such like, and she more-or-less rubber stamps the awards. -- JackofOz (talk) 00:54, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Percentage of scientists

Apporximately what percentage of the world's population is actively involved in scientific research? Also, what percentage of fresh workers commit themselves to scientific research? Thanks ahead. 99.226.39.245 (talk) 00:54, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, narrowing the question down to something more manageable — just physics in the US — I can say that there were roughly 12,000 physics PhDs awarded in 2005 in the US . They spent on average six years getting their degrees, probably doing research about five years out of the six . Add to that the 54,000 full time faculty with PhDs , which might lump some lecturers in, but we're not bothering to count the private lab researchers anyways so hopefully it'll all even out, and you something like 65k people in physics in the US doing scientific research, or roughly 0.02% of our population. So I'd guess around 0.1% are in science in general. Less for the world as a whole. — Laura Scudder ☎ 01:51, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

What would "THE" original battle of iwo jima flag raising photo be worth?

The first copy of the first picture taken of the original raising of the flag. How much would that go for?NewAtThis (talk) 01:06, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

However much someone would pay for it. It's the sort of thing that would be auctioned. (And would need to be authenticated, of course.) It doesn't have a pre-set pricetag. A trained appraiser could probably estimate how much it might be worth, but in the end people will pay for it what they will pay for it. --Captain Ref Desk (talk) 01:49, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

well what's the going rate for historical photos like this one...like on ebay or that PBS show?70.1.91.172 (talk) 08:51, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I'd be quite surprised if any photo of the same caliber were on that show. We're not just talking about a posed picture of some general that was passed down through family members from generation to generation but one that is known to millions (billions?) of people the world over. One could even argue that the picture itself made the battle more historically significant, not due to the battle itself, but due to the coverage that it received from the media and the interest of people who wanted to know more about "that photo with the guys raising the flag". It's sort of akin to asking how much the Mona Lisa would be worth. Paintings of that much renown aren't sold often enough to gauge a very accurate estimate by the lay person that we most likely have here. Some expert appraiser who knows that market may be able to put a ball park guess on it but then they know the market and the potential bidders. Dismas| 11:28, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

The original negative is in a file at a photo bureau. Countless prints were made from it. How would one be authenticated as the "first" as opposed to the 97th print? The very first print was probably a test print which went in the trash, to be followed by a better exposed print, or perhaps one with different cropping, dodging or burning to improve the appearance. Prints from the original negative might be distinguishable from prints made from a duplicate negative, to avoid wearing out the original. A print with a notation on the back by the photographer would be more desirable, as would be one with a special provenance, such as having been presented to some notable General by the photographer. Edison (talk) 16:44, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Communication technology and economics

I was thinking about expanding my article on history of communication with information about how it impacted our society. One of the first parts I am thinking about would be how changes in our communication technologies impacted business/economics. Any ideas and in particular referenced works would be highly appreciated.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 01:15, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Update: Elizabeth L. Eisenstein, The Printing Press as an Agent of Change is a good source on printing press, but does not exhaust the subject.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 02:49, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Theorist/essayist Walter Benjamin had something predictive to say about reproductive technology (ie print) and its effects on society, culture and the value of art objectsThe Work of Art in the Age of Its Technological Reproducibility, and Other Writings on Media, Harvard University Press, ISBN 0-674-02445-1. Julia Rossi (talk) 23:38, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Israel and ISM

Are detained ISM volunteers barred from entering Israel again at a future time? --S.dedalus (talk) 06:30, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Parliaments of the English Protectorate

Did they achieve anything at all and did politics operate in any normal sense during the protectorate of Oliver Cromwell?

Iranian Minority

Which part of Iran, meaning which provinces do minority Sunnis mostly live and which provinces do minority Christians live? Do Iranian Christians follow Roman Catholic or not? If not, which article should I read about which sect of Christianity do they follow?

See Islam in Iran and Christianity in Iran. The Sunnis are mostly in various border regions. The christians are mostly members of the Armenian Apostolic Church, who apparently mostly live in New Julfa and Tehran. Algebraist 15:46, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Arab Christians

Which Arab nations has the significant population of Christians? I believe Lebanon has the most - maybe a third? Everywhere else is 1-5%. --76.192.189.206 (talk) 14:28, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Yep. Wrad (talk) 15:28, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Some sources give the Christian share of the Palestinian Arab population as 6%. Coptic Christians number at least 4 million people, or 6% of the population of Egypt. The Copts of Egypt are actually the largest Christian minority in the Arab world in numbers, even though they make up a smaller percentage of the total population than do Christians in Lebanon. Marco polo (talk) 15:50, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Punjabi-speaking Pakistani scholars

Is there any Pakistani scholars who do tafsir quran and give lectures and speeches in Punjabi?

There is Ameer Muhammad Akram Awan. His writings are in Urdu or English, but you will find videos online of him speaking in Punjabi. There may well be other Punjabi-speaking mufassirun in Pakistan. Marco polo (talk) 19:30, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Indian bengalis

Do Indian Muslims in West Bengal and Tripura speak Bengali or not? Because I want to know if there are any Muslim scholars who give lectures in Bengali?

Yes, most people (including Muslims) in West Bengal and Tripura speak Bengali, and according to those articles Bengali is (with English) the main language of education. I can't find anything on Bengali lectures; it might be that university education is mainly in English. Algebraist 15:35, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Fall of the Directory

Would it be true to say that the fall of the Directory owed as much if not more to its own inefficiency and corruption than to the ambition of Napoleon? If so in what way was this inefficiency undermining the French war effort? Is there any way that French government could have been reformed from within without the necessity of military dictatorship? Thank you. 81.129.85.240 (talk) 15:06, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

current events-British Columbia-Canada

I am looking for the context of the quote made by MLA Dennis Mackay reguarding his statement that some (Aboriginal) people have benefitted from attending residential school.

Proving residency in a State

According to the Real ID Act one must prove a residency to a particular State. What if you were a vagabond and had no 'fixed' State of residency. In other words, what if a person was a fulltimer RVer and never settled in any one place for very long. Then when located in a place there is no utility bills, since it is automatically in the rent of the place where you are staying (since it is just temporary). Many resort places in the Southern United States rent condos to snowbirds for 90 - 180 days and the rent is all inclusive (all utilities included). In this case, there is no utility bills in your name. One can then be in one of these condos temporarly for 5 - 6 months and then be traveling the remainder of the time in a recreational vehicle. Say each winter one stays first in one of these all inclusive condos in Texas, then travels for the summer, then a condo in Florida for the winter, then travels for 6 months, then a condo in Myrtle Beach for the winter, then travels for 6 months, etc. What State does this person have residency in? My understanding is that there is something like a million fulltimer RVers. What about them?--Doug 20:17, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

A person only has to be a resident in a given state long enough to get ID from that state. ID from one state will be accepted in another. The rental contract (lease) for a person's winter lodgings would probably suffice as proof of residence. If not, then the phone or cable bill at that place of residence would work. Often, even a credit card bill can constitute proof of address. If the person secures winter lodgings on, say, December 1, that person can then go and apply for a state picture ID (e.g. a driver's license) in the first week of December. If the person stays at that address even through the end of January, he or she will receive his or her ID from that state and can then pack up the RV and move on to another state. Marco polo (talk) 20:37, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Is this any different than the residency requirements needed to get a driver's license in the first place, much less keep your vehicle registration up to date? You just need an address of some sort and proof that you receive mail at it, if I recall. --Captain Ref Desk (talk) 20:42, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Interesting about the lease agreement. So happens the condo complex I stay at in the South has no lease agreement. Also no Deposit. You just pay the monthly rental fee each month - which includes all utilities, hence no utility bills. Stay there 5 or 6 months a year, then travel in an RV the remaining time, staying at campgrounds, State and National Parks. Mail is "General Delivery" in the city I am at in the winter time. All other mail is by e-mail. Banking is by the internet and through Banks that have multiple Branches in many States. Which would be consider the State of my residency?--Doug 20:58, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Would that be the State that issued your driver's licence or your vehicle reg? Would a signed statutory declaration cover your winter residence? Julia Rossi (talk) 22:19, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

It really seems as if you have gone out of your way to eliminate any proof of residence from your life! I have rented dozens of apartments in my life in 4 different states and 2 different countries, and I have never once lived in one that did not require my signature on some kind of rental agreement. If you are concerned about establishing residency in some state, then I would find a condo that provides some kind of rental agreement and an address for delivery of mail. Short of that, I would write your address on your rent check and the following note in the lower left corner of the rent check: For <month name> <year> rent at the above address. When you receive the canceled check or its facsimile from your bank, you have your proof of residence. It really isn't a problem if your state of residence changes every year, but if you need proof of residence, you might choose situations that make it easier for you to establish it. Marco polo (talk) 00:46, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I like the check idea. Thanks for the hints and answers. Appreciate it.--Doug 14:00, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Francis Fowke and George Fowke

So, I've just written an article on George Henry Fowke, a senior officer of the Royal Engineers, b. 1864. There was a prominent engineer by the name of Francis Fowke, who died in 1865 aged 42; the DNB just says he had three children who survived infancy but doesn't give details. His wife was born in 1822, so would have been in her early forties in 1864.

"Fowke" is a fairly uncommon surname, and it seems possible to me that one is the son of the other - sons following in father's footsteps and all that - but none of the (albeit sketchy) biographies of GH Fowke that I can find make any mention of his father. Anyone any idea how to follow up this hunch? Shimgray | talk | 22:16, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

If you are prepared to invest a little money in the search, you could try to locate and track them through the UK Census. SaundersW (talk) 10:44, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Smoking Law In UK

Obviously it is illegal to purchase smoking products if you are under 18 in the UK. But is this the minimum age to smoke or just to purchase ? What is the minimum smoking age ? How can a minor legally acquire smoking products ?

That's the minimum age to buy or sell. I don't believe there is a minimum age to smoke, but I can't find a source. Legally acquiring tobacco as a minor might be difficult, since it is also illegal to buy tobacco for a minor. Doing so illegally is generally very easy, however. Algebraist 22:43, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Just as growing marijuana for your own use is okay, so growing tobacco for your own use would, I imagine, be okay for a 16-year-old. (caveant: jurisdiction specific). --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 02:58, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Where is okay to grow marijuana for your own use? It is probably quite difficult to discover who is doing it, but I don't know if there is a right to do so. Mr.K. (talk) 14:24, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't know of any jurisdiction where it's legal. It certainly isn't in the UK. Algebraist 14:36, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

March 22

Cult Definition

Why isn't Christ and his disciples considered a cult?

Max Weinreich famously said (on the difference between a dialect and a language) that "a language is a dialect with an army and a navy". I think the same is true for cults versus religions. I'm sure that after 1000 years of recruiting the cult of Xenu will seem as respectable as the cult of the zombie that's given me the day off today. --Sean

A famous saying goes, "The difference between a cult and a church is how many members it has." -- Kesh (talk) 00:15, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Alternatively, one could define cult a little narrower, to not mean so much "unpopular/fringe religious sect" but rather religious sects that require extremely high degrees of investment (cut of all ties to your family, divert all resources to the group, pressured or coerced to conform to group expectations, not allowed to leave the group). I'm not sure if the original relationship between Christ and his disciplines would fit into such a definition, at least by the New Testament account—participation seems to me to have been pretty much voluntary, and if anything Christ was a little contemptuous of his disciples deciding to follow him around, if I recall correctly. Perhaps someone who has read the book of Matthew more recently than I (it has been about ten years for this agnostic) could share with us their perceptions on how well this definition fits or does not. --Captain Ref Desk (talk) 00:23, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Christ was not at all contemptuous of being followed. He told many of his disciples personally: "Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men". He asked them to follow him. Wrad (talk) 00:36, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I seem to recall—and it has been awhile—him occasionally making disparaging remarks about how irritatingly dense they were at times. There were some times he seemed positively pissy. But again, it's been awhile. --Captain Ref Desk (talk) 03:18, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I once saw an episode of a well-respected TV quiz show where the question was something about which religion some famous person belonged to, and the answer was supposed to be "Christianity". The answer given by the contestant was "He was a Roman Catholic", which he was. To the contestant's anguish and the viewers' amazement, it was marked wrong, and the explanation was that the religion is considered to be Christianity, but Catholicism and all the other varieties of Christianity are considered separate cults of the overall religion, and they weren't asking about the person's cult but their religion. Not sure how many complaints they had about that one. -- JackofOz (talk) 00:31, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Wow. Muslims would say he was Muslim. Wrad (talk) 00:37, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Since Jesus went to synagogue, his group was probably a sect in those days, with teachers commonly being accompanied by followers. Julia Rossi (talk) 02:51, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

A functional definition of cult is not based on the success of a cult, but on information control, use of fear, emotional manipulation, isolation from outside influences, power structuring, etc. Any gestures towards such definitions are routinely reverted at Misplaced Pages, a symptom of cult information manipulation in itself. --Wetman (talk) 09:29, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Christianity was originally considered a cult (by the romans), and persecuted. See Christianity#Early_Church_and_Christological_Councils87.102.16.238 (talk) 12:42, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Moral philosophy of evolution

Is there a moral philosophy which posits evolution as the source and answer to ethics questions? If so how would this philosophy answer the following paradox? (Is there a name for this paradox btw?)

An old lady and the Mona Lisa (or some great work of art) are in a burning art museum. You have time to save only one. Which do you choose?

Thanks, --S.dedalus (talk) 05:50, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

You could take a look at bioethicist Peter Singer especially this section to do with evolutionary biology. Singer is an evolutionary atheist by the way. Now I hope to push the little old lady out of the way of the crowd rushing towards the mOna Lisa. Julia Rossi (talk) 06:54, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

PS I like your conundrum about the two little old ladies. The value placed on either of these is fraught. JR

I can not speculate on the legislation in other countries, but in the EU you would be charged with "gross negligence leading to the death" of Ms X, if you were to have saved Ms Mona Lisa. I think the US term is "criminally negligent homicide". --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 13:50, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

In most places in the U.S., criminally negligent homicide wouldn't apply, as there is no legal duty to put your own life at risk to rescue others, and as neither Ms. Mona nor Ms. Biddy are in your care. - Nunh-huh 14:09, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Altruism is considered to be a mechanism which has affected evolution (or the other way round). Sorry if this is Weasel-speak, but I can´t find the reference I have stumbled across some weeks ago.

If my memory serves me right, these scientists (anthropologists ?) argued that altruistic behaviour may have been instrumental in the survival of tribe X whilst a less community oriented and selfish humanoid clan, tribe Y, may not have survived.

Maybe somebody else knows what hypothesis I am referring to ? --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 19:11, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I think you are referring to group selection as the proposed mechanism of the evolution of altruism. - Nunh-huh 19:59, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Personally I'd be very skeptical of any attempts to base a moral philosophy on some independent foundation, and in particular one from the natural sciences. There have been adherents of the theory of Social Darwinism who viewed this theory not as a descriptive, but as a prescriptive theory, legitimizing the elimination of "social misfits". I have no idea, though, how such people would have solved your conundrum.  --Lambiam 20:22, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

You could also look at Porphyry (philosopher) arguably Springer's forbear. Julia Rossi (talk) 03:30, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

There is an entire field known as evolutionary ethics. Unfortunately such attempts often fall into the naturalistic fallacy at best, and a projection onto nature at worst. Every ten years or so we have a totally different idea about what sorts of conclusions we should draw from our evolutionary lineage (were our predecessors more like the carnivorous chimpanzee, the noble gorilla, or the sex-crazed bonobo?), and science has, in my opinion, proven itself quite unsuited to the normative, or prescriptive, task when it comes to ethics. It tries to base it in nature, but nature doesn't boil down to simple answers or maxims—nobody looks more out-of-date than the ideas of a scientist who has proclaimed ten years previous that they understood how nature says human behavior should regulated. --Captain Ref Desk (talk) 04:46, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Sdedalus for subjecting cleverly us to the false dilemma otherwise known as "the lesser of two weevils". Not the fastest bull in the arena, I learned a lot.  ; )Julia Rossi (talk) 07:48, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I would save the old lady, since I don't much like the mona lisa. What about everything else in the museum. surely it would be much better to just put the fire out?HS7 (talk) 20:51, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Ahh, evolutionary ethics is exactly what I was looking for. Thanks! As for the “dilemma” I believe it’s actually intended to be a Value theory question. It considers the value of art over life, but in this context it is made more complicated by the fact that the woman is over the age of reproduction. (Sorry, that’s a pertinent factor when considering evolutionary value.) Thanks for the help folks, -S.dedalus (talk) 21:51, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Based on my limited understanding of his work, I think the "biological ethic" of Herbert Spencer might also apply. User:Jwrosenzweig, not logged in 03:41, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Burma, Laos, Cambodia, and Thailand: Indosphere or Sinosphere?

Our Indosphere article places those countries in that orbit. Is this clear cut?

Lotsofissues 06:45, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Countries often fall into numerous spheres of influence - some of the countries you mention also fall into a 'sino-sphere' of influence.87.102.16.238 (talk) 12:40, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

All four countries currently use a writing system derived from Indian alphabets (as opposed to Vietnam, which used a writing system based on Chinese characters before going over to the Latin alphabet in the late 19th-century). However, active ongoing cultural influence from India may not have been too significant in recent centuries... AnonMoos (talk) 20:05, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Princess Anastasia

I saw a cartoon on tv yesterday about Anastasia. My mum says she thinks it was about a real russian princess. She dosent know any more. She says I should ask here. What happened to the real Anastasia. What happened to her family. Yours sincerely, Julia Mackenzie (aged 8)

The cartoon was probably Anastasia, which is based on stories told about Grand Duchess Anastasia, the daughter of the last reigning Tsar of Russia. The Tsar and all his family were killed in the Russian Revolution, but many people hoped that somehow Anastasia had survived, and many women later claimed to have been the long-lost Anastasia. Unfortunately, the stories were false, and the women, like Anna Anderson, Eugenia Smith, and Nadezhda Vasilyeva, were impostors: Anastasia had died in the Revolution with the rest of her family. -Nunh-huh 08:26, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

My great-aunt, who died not so long ago, happened to be a playmate of Anastasia when she was about the same age as Julia. Small world.John Z (talk) 09:07, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Does the Christian celebration of easter have its origins in the Hindu Bahagavad Gita ?

If so, what is the relationship?

Easter festival was originally a pagan festival - search for "easter pagan" for more details.

See eostre for more details.

I don't know if the link goes back further - do hindus have an 'easter festival'?87.102.16.238 (talk) 12:38, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

This page gives a little more info http://hindugenius.blogspot.com/2007/06/pagan-origin-of-easter-festival.html I can't find a direct link though.87.102.16.238 (talk) 13:20, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

The answer is "no". And "Eostre" only gives the name of Easter in English -- the actual religious observance of Easter goes back to the Jewish passover (the word for Easter is usually a variant of "Pascha" in most European-derived language). AnonMoos (talk) 19:32, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Philosophers Wealth

How did the great philosophers throughout human history- Plato, Aristotle, Descartes- earn a living and become considerably wealthy ? Surely all they had to offer were opinions and ideas about the nature of the world and time, where is the money in that ?

Descartes inherited sufficient wealth that he never had to work for a living. I believe Plato and Aristotle were in the same boat. Algebraist 15:49, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

As to antiquity: A significant number were, in modern terms, teachers of patricians. Have a look at our article on Academia which has a section on Plato, Plato´s Academy and Ancient times. One of his students, Aristotle, later took on a pupil by the name of Alexander, who presumably paid hefty fees before embarking on a spot of empire-building.

--Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 18:38, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

There are basically four ways to make money with philosophy: 1. already have it, 2. teach, 3. find a beneficent donor, 4. go to law school and become a lawyer! ;-) --Captain Ref Desk (talk) 18:48, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Some of them were poor homeless bums, like Diogenes. Adam Bishop (talk) 22:43, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Diogenes of Sinope, in (simplified and loaded) modern terms, was an anti-social anarchist drop out.

Societies, then and now, protect themselves from those who dare to question the dogma. The methods vary (legal prosecution / mental institutions / public ridicule et al).

Those who misunderstand the meaning of the much maligned term cynic may still wish to read it up. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 01:27, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Does that make professional philosophy a leisure pursuit? Looks like Socrates brought it down to earth a little without leaving his name to a syndrome. Julia Rossi (talk) 07:55, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Population

How can any organisation be even close when estimating the human population of this planet ? Surely as people are constantly dying and being born at only roughly equal rates, one can never be certain of the population. There must be no way of ever knowing how many of us there are, or if anybody's estimations are anywhere near the truth. Misplaced Pages states that on January 25th, 2006 the estimation was at 6.5 billion, but what is the margin of error ?

This website has information on methodology. Carom (talk) 19:03, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Population counting itself is not a unique statistical problem—statisticians have been dealing with exactly these sorts of issues since the dawn of statistics as a discipline (it was, at the name implies, the science of the state, that is, the science which tells you about the nation-state itself, about how many people are in it, who they are, how they are doing, etc.—what might today be more specifically called demography). In anything where you are tallying people you have to make certain assumptions about how reliable your models are, who you are missing, how much you can extrapolate from a small sample size.

The silliness comes in when places like the US Census make it look like their estimates are valid all the way down to the individual person. This is a display of false precision. I wish I could tell you the margin of error in such things but it is likely that the last four—and probably even more—digits given are just false precision, statistical junk that nobody has bothered to filter out. --Captain Ref Desk (talk) 19:45, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

(after edit conflict) Demography and population statistics are specialized fields. If you count all people in a given area during a certain period, say a single day (as is done in some countries when census is taken) the effect of the difference between the birth rate and the death rate will be small. If the annual growth rate is 1.18%, the growth rate per day is only 0.0032%. The main error is then in not counting people who are away (or possibly hiding) when the census taker comes. Given the growth rate, which usually will not suddenly change dramatically, such numbers can be projected to dates like January 1. By counting some parts more precisely, it can be estimated what the undercount is in general. Using standard statistical methods, the variance can be estimated, and can further be checked with differences between projected and counted results. When summing estimates of different areas to obtain a global estimate, just add up the respective variances as well. The main issue for global estimates is that problems such as civil war may make it impossible to take the census of some countries. Such disturbing aspects are much larger than uncertainties related to the constant going on of births and deaths.  --Lambiam 19:58, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Art Work

What is the difference between G/P and S/N on a Thomas Kinkade painting?

I can't find a GP. The prints listed for sale on the Thomas Kinkade website are marked "S/N' and "A/P". S/N stands for "Standard Number" which places it in the Kinkade inventory somewhere; it is also the number written on a brass plaque that accompanies the print. "A/P" stands for "artist's proof" which seems to mean, in this case only, that is is slightly larger than the rest of the print run and is basically just another shorter run of the same "S/N" print. The "A/P" costs more than the "S/N". Please note that Kinkade print runs tend to number in the thousands, and even if an "A/P" is a shorter run, it still may be longer by far than the full run of most other artists' numbered print. (I once attended at a framing lecture given by Kinsler where she said that any print run longer than 250 copies was not "limited" in any realistic sense." ៛ Bielle (talk) 02:19, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Stalin's father

I read that there may be some doubt over the exact parentage of Joseph Stalin, not shown in your article. Is any more known? Rigsby's Cat (talk)

Only the doubt that seems to spring up about the parentage of many famous figures.... AllenHansen (talk) 11:05, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

See Nikolai_Przhevalsky#Przhevalsky_and_Stalin; our article calls it an urban legend. BrainyBabe (talk) 14:03, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

What do interest rate cuts have to do with inflation?

I'm trying to understand the US Economic policy, with its interest cuts and Economic Stimulus Package. I heard a few arguments on why interest cuts would increase inflation. Is this because more money will be able through credit? I thought the fed did a good job controlling inflation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Legolas52 (talk • contribs)

This is an involved topic. Here are some articles for you to peruse to get an overview: money supply#Link with inflation, inflation#Controlling inflation, monetary policy. –Outriggr § 00:20, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

The Devils

How, and to what extent, does Dostoyevsky's novel reveal an understanding of the inner workings and philosophy of The People's Will? Yermolov (talk) 21:06, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Do you mean the Volonté generale? ... AnonMoos (talk) 22:16, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

No, sorry. I mean Narodnaya Volya, a political movement in tsarist Russia. Yermolov (talk) 23:13, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Is there no answer? Yermolov (talk) 17:34, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

According to our article on The Possessed, another name for The Devils, the novel is from 1872, while the terrorist activities of Narodnaya Volya's seem to date from 1879 onwards only. So perhaps Dostoyevsky had a general intuition of the mindset of extremist revolutionaries of his day and age that also was valid for N.V. (Or, an interesting hypothesis, they may have been inspired by his novel.) However, I don't know anything about "the inner workings and philosophy" of N.V., and I'm not qualified to comment on the degree of similarity. You can read something of what a mixed bunch it was here.  --Lambiam 01:33, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

ebooks

Hi, im looking for books on 'how can i know/understand myself better', 'how to study people's behavior', 'how to deal/behave with people'..etc. Could anyone suggest me some good online library along with the titles of the books, where i can find my need. Thank you in advance.

For a starting point or guide, have you seen our list of Self-help books? Please sign your posts with four of these ~ to avoid confusion. Thanks, Julia Rossi (talk) 07:59, 23 March 2008 (UTC) Oops, fixed the link so you can try again, cheers. JR

Depression in students

In universities, are students majoring in arts more likely to have depression than those majoring in sciences? NeonMerlin 23:55, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Statistically, whether they are students or not, arts-persons are more likely to suffer from depression that science-persons. Wrad (talk) 00:00, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps it is the other way round: depressed people tend more to like art than not depressed people. If the correlation is true at all, of course. Mr.K. (talk) 01:40, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

This 2008 article in the New York Times science section about the work of neuroscientist Dr. Jack Pettigrew is worth a look. Julia Rossi (talk) 08:05, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

March 23

About a photograph

I found this strange photo in a gallery with the name "Amazing photos throughout our history", and I was wondering - since it's been placed in such a category - if it has got some kind of story to go along. It seems to be a portrait of either a inbreed family or a freakshow. Any suggestion what it is?

Here it is: --Petteroes (talk) 00:00, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Hard to say without any information as to who it is a photo of, where taken, and when taken. Could be a Photoshop project, could be a family some of whom have unusual appearance, could be a 19th century institution. Edison (talk) 18:08, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Huang Yong, Chinese serial killer

Hi friends, some users (or the same) are vandalizing this guy's article. What can we do? Maru-Spanish (talk) 02:46, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Try these guys, Misplaced Pages:Counter-Vandalism Unit/Task Force. Julia Rossi (talk) 09:35, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Do Jews believe in hell and the devil?

Do Jews believe in hell and the devil?

They believe in Sheol and Satan. AnonMoos (talk) 03:27, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

But nothing like Christian concepts of the two. See Jewish eschatology and this page on Judaism and HaSatan (the adversary). -- Mwalcoff (talk) 04:45, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Supply and demand in the labor market

For jobs paying minimal wages is clear that there is much more supply than demand. For jobs paying some hundred dollars/hour the contrary is the case.

But, how can we calculate all these cases in the middle?

If I know that a job pays $15/hours, how is the ratio of supply and demand?

Where is the point where there is as much supply as demand?

Mr.K. (talk) 03:30, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

must religious stereotypes be bigotted???

religion MEANS its adherents will have certain ideas, so how is it bigotted on its face to attribute it to the members of that religion? It's just a question of true or false, isn't it, since either the adherents will or won't have the thoughts you ascribe to them.... can someone explain why religion should be treated as though it didn't involve BEING certain ways, as though it were just being a circumstnace of someone's birth?

It depends on whether the stereotype is hateful or not, and whether one is compressing a great deal of variance into a simple statement. It's one thing to talk about beliefs that are very widely held by groups, it's another to start ascribing other attributes to them. On the whole, it is not bigoted to say that Mormons are anti-gay, that Catholics are anti-abortion, and Jews and Muslims aren't supposed to eat pork. But in all of those there will be variance as well—it's not a question of true or false, some Catholics aren't anti-abortion, some Mormons aren't anti-homosexual, some Jews and Muslims doubtless think God has bigger things to worry about than their lunch. --Captain Ref Desk (talk) 04:42, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Like his own lunch. How many calories a day does an omnipresent being need, anyway? It must be an awful lot. -88.109.94.132 (talk) 09:00, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Could God make a sandwich so big he wouldn't have room for dessert afterwards? Important theological question. --Captain Ref Desk (talk) 19:25, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

What does "anti-homosexual" mean? The reason I ask is that mormons don't think that God hates guys, they just believe the lifestyle is morally wrong. Wrad (talk) 20:10, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

They're against people being homosexual. Claiming that something which is clearly a form of identity is a "lifestyle" and therefore suppressible is, I think, grounds to consider someone being against the thing itself. In any case, I don't think one has to believe that God Himself hates gays to be anti-homosexual. They are against people identifying as homosexual and acting in a homosexual manner. That's about all you need to be anti-homosexual, in my book. --Captain Ref Desk (talk) 21:42, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

"They're against people being homosexual." That's absolutely correct. I just think that "anti-homosexual" is a bit ambiguous. There's a big difference between the "God hates fags lets go kill some" crowd and the "love the person not the act" crowd. Anyway, yes, you're right, Mormons are against the homosexual lifestyle, though they are not part of the decidely more extreme and hateful anti-gay crowd. Wrad (talk) 04:02, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Does that mean that as far as Mormons are concerned, it's ok to be homosexual in nature as long as you keep your sexual activities secret, you never tell anyone, and you never openly live as one? That may be a less extreme position than killing fags, but it still sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. -- JackofOz (talk) 04:33, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

No, we (speaking as a whole) don't consider it 'ok', lived secretly or openly, but it's a matter between the person and God, who'll deal with it in his own time, in his own way. We don't teach hatred against homosexuals. I have a homosexual realtive and a homosexual friend and I love them, but it doesn't mean that I agree with the choices they've made. There are restrictions, such as not partaking of the sacrament, going to the temple, or, for none members, being baptised, but those restrictions apply equaly to, say, adulterers. AllenHansen (talk) 08:18, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

You speak of "the choices they've made" as if it's simply a matter of choice. I'd love to know why a person would willingly choose to expose themselves to the possibility of ridicule, hatred, vilification, discrimination, imprisonment, execution, religious persecution, religious restrictions, and murder. That's the attitudinal record against homosexuals down the ages, and much of it still goes on. Why would anyone ever choose to put their head into such a lion's mouth? Most straight males have a visceral reaction to the concept of 2 males having sex, which varies from mild displeasure to outright repulsion. So who are these people who go against their own nature to choose to enter into what they themselves consider to be repulsive sexual arrangements? What could possibly explain such utterly bizarre behaviour? Insanity? Extreme rebelliousness? And how does it go from being repulsive to being attractive, desirable and sexually arousing? Oh, I know, maybe they were always attracted to such things. Is that just barely possible? And wouldn't this mean they never chose this "lifestyle", just as they never chose to be left- or right-handed, never chose to be born in whatever country they were born in, never chose to be male or female, never chose to be short or tall, never chose to be a musical genius or tone-deaf, never chose to have parents who were Mormons, witches, Breatharians or whatever. I hope you see my point. The only choice homosexuals have is whether to acknowledge their nature and live their lives in accordance with it (not that it defines them or their life's purpose any more than being heterosexual does), or not. There are many reasons why many don't do so, and it's not hard to see why given the immense challenges they would often face. -- JackofOz (talk) 12:58, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Who is the earliest known person?

I've tried to locate the earliest historically known person, which I think should be some time in the 4th millennium BC or perhaps even earlier, prior to Sargon of Akkad of the Sumerians/Akkadians and Iry-Hor of the Egyptians. I've found many mythical names who supposedly existed before recorded history, but I'm looking for a real historical person. My guess is that it would be the name of a ruler, or perhaps a scribe who signed his (surviving) works. — Loadmaster (talk) 04:08, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Scorpion I? If the scorpion symbol associated with him is his name. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 04:40, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Apparently, we had an article on this topic but it got deleted due to lack of sources. — Kieff | Talk 05:04, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Ötzi the Iceman? Not historically attested I suppose...but he was a real person. Adam Bishop (talk) 09:10, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Well if you allow Ötzi, you'll have to allow Lucy.--Shantavira| 09:43, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

See also a related question from December 2006: "Who is the first recorded human by name?". ---Sluzzelin talk 10:45, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Mitochondrial Eve (140 kY ago), whilst not documented by her contemporaries, indubitably existed. Indeed, you may argue she still exists.

Y-chromosomal Adam, by comparision, is a spring chicken, aged 60 kY. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 13:16, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

The list of Kings of Sumer extends back a long way. The lengths of reigns are obviously inaccurate, but according to the theory I first read, Enmerkar ruled at roughly the same time as the first known egyptian pharohs Tiu and the Scorpion, around 3050BC, but the lists here seems to suggest instead that Ngushur ruled at their time, which was apparently 3200BC. Names before that are increasingly unlikely to have been real people, but I doubt there's any point where we can say, 'none on the list before this king were real'. Or maybe there is no first person and all our history is circular. HS7 (talk) 20:39, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

In case anyone says "Adam", "Chap One" preceeds him in most Bibles. --Dweller (talk) 20:36, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

does the California State Military Reserve allow gays

?

I don´t know if this is applicable to the question, but under the link http://www.calguard.ca.gov/ig/Pages/Homosexual.aspx the subsequent statements are made:

• Applicants for enlistment will not be asked nor be required to reveal their sexual orientation
• Applicants for enlistment will not be asked if they have engaged in homosexual conduct
• While on active duty, soldiers will not be asked about their sexual orientation or conduct unless there is credible information of homosexual conduct

--Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 17:51, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Don't ask, don't tell --hello, i'm a member | talk to me! 22:16, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

The Date Of The New Moon Visible In Jerusalem Nearest The Spring Equinox 2008?

Please can someone help me with the date of the new moon visible in Jerusalem nearest the Spring equinox this year 2008? Grateful thanks.NZGail (talk) 07:32, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Apparently it should be April 7. See here for example. Adam Bishop (talk) 07:52, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Unless you use an optical aid; then it could be April 6. And are you sure the new moon preceding the equinox is not closer?  --Lambiam 01:55, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

The council of Nicea formula was the first Sunday after the first full moon after the vernal equinox, by the way... AnonMoos (talk) 11:45, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Where the vernal equinox is defined to be on the 21st of March – which is way off if you follow the Julian calendar.  --Lambiam 01:55, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Lord Jim and Imperialism

Could Conrad's novel Lord Jim stand as a metaphor for the late imperial experience? What does it reveal about the values and attitudes of Victorian England?Jessie George (talk) 08:13, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

When you've gone into it more, come back to us with things you find tricky (as per the intro box about homework above), Julia Rossi (talk) 08:57, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I have gone into it, thank you very much, Julia Rossi. I was looking for opinions to compare with my own. I did not come here to be patronized. If you have nothing to say might I suggest that you confine yourself to saying nothing.Jessie George (talk) 17:50, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Jessie, your bitchy reply to Julia (a valued contributor to this Desk) is sad and unnecessary. The people who reply to questions like yours are not paid nor is this their regular job. So have a thought for Julia's feelings. Your question certainly sounds like homework and Julia was quite correct to ask for more information - Adrian Pingstone (talk) 19:46, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

It seems I came here, first, to be patronized and then lectured and insulted for my bitchy response. I do not need any silly little homilies from you, Adrian Pingstone. I know how the reference desk works. I asked my question because I was impressed by the expertise some people here have shown in dealing with literature and its historical context. Not, seemingly, in this case. My question was placed in good faith. The responses I have had have been shallow and stupid. I've done with Misplaced Pages and I have done with the reference desk. So long. Jessie George (talk) 08:00, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Why don't you present your opinions so we can compare all the better? AllenHansen (talk) 07:55, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Aklavik

Do exist a city called Aklavik in Alaska? Or is only in the Northwest territories? In an atlant of 1967 there are monthly temperature of "Aklavik (Alaska)" (9 mt of altitude): January: -27,8°, February -26,9°, March -22,5°, April -13,1°, May -0,6°, June 9,4°, July 13,6°, August 10°, September 3,3° October -6,7°, November -19,4°, December -26,7°. Is only a confusion? Francesco.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/Aklavik,_Northwest_Territories for the settlement in Canada.

There are a few references via Google to an Aklavik in Alaska, but but none of them give any useful details. Maybe contacting the relevant authority in Juneau would give a precise answer. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 13:08, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I can find no indication that such a place exists. Like Cockatoo, I tried a Google search of "Aklavik Alaska" (With quotes around it). The only result that remotely suggested an actual place was a description of a photo from a museum's archives: "Notes: Aerial photograph of Aklavik, Alaska taken by the Royal Canadian Air Force." I don't know what the Canadian Air Force would be doing photographing Alaska; smells like a mistake to me.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 13:12, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi. A Google Maps search only shows "Aklavik Circle, Sterling, Alaska" which looks like the name of a street rather than a town. Thanks. ~AH1 02:03, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Demonology trivia

Who fits the following description: "the lion-headed, eagle-footed Assyrian-Babylonian demon of disease and evil?" He is believed to wield a "mace of wounding" and a "dagger of killing." I need the name of this creature so that I may worship him.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 13:02, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Gozer? Adam Bishop (talk) 13:08, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

No Ghostbusters jokes please. This is a serious question (although a separate question of interest might be whether the fictional monsters Gozer and Zuul were based on actual Sumerian demons--but let's attend to my primary question first).--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 13:15, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Heh, sorry, I couldn't resist. But if I am looking at the same book as you on Google Books, then it apparently doesn't have a name. Adam Bishop (talk) 13:16, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

It is an irritating and somewhat uninformative book; however, I believe he does have a name and very possibly a Misplaced Pages article. I am of the opinion that learning this entity's name will allow me to animate a host of undead warriors from the bowels of the Earth. Any Wikipedian who helps me discover this name may be permitted to rule at our side.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 13:33, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Possibly Asag. It's how he is depicted in Hordes of the Things, for example. See here. ---Sluzzelin talk 13:50, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm restoring your first comment (hope you don't mind). I think this actually helpful, and I love that picture! If I had to guess, I would think that "the Hordes of the Things" designer probably used this as inspiration (see figure 2). scratch that. on closer inspection, the miniaturist said he constructed his creature from a griffin with the head of a temple dog. However, I can't find evidence that Asag was described this way in ancient poems.--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 14:04, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Zu or Anzu. ---Sluzzelin talk 13:55, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't think so.... Anzu looks like an actual bird--and not a particularly anthropomorphic one. I think my demon is more of a half man-half beast kind of a deal. Also bear in mind that the demon I wish to worship is "Assyrian-Babylonian," not "Sumerian." Can someone tell me whether these cultures had discrete mythologies, or whether they overlapped or derived from one another......--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 14:04, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Mesopotamian religious practices "overlapped" greatly: the succesive waves of new immigrants tended to incorporate -and deeply respect- the religious traditions of the peoples and "older civilizations" they found already established in the region, and syncretism run rampant. As a clear example, long after Akkadian had replaced Sumerian as the spoken language of Lower Mesopotamia, Sumerian made its last stand as a venerated religious language in which certain rites continued to be performed. - Ev (talk) 15:57, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

rofl I just saw the picture at Google Books :-) This kind of demon is generically known as an ugallu, but I'm not aware of any instance of one being individualized and given a proper name. Its depiction in the walls of Assyrian palaces was intended to protect the place from supernatural beings and evil spirits, much like a lamassu or the Roman Lares. - Best regards, Ev (talk) 14:20, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. Ugallu = Gallu? Or is that a different type of Mesopotamian demon?--The Fat Man Who Never Came Back (talk) 14:24, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/16653/16653-h/16653-h.htm " Gallu was applied in the sense of "foreign devil" to human and superhuman adversaries of certain monarchs."

Elsewhere they are described as 'demon bulls'

Caution. Don't these creatures usually make unreasonable demands in return for their proper name eg Your soul, years supply of snickers bars, gold subscription to XBOX Live etc...87.102.16.238 (talk) 14:44, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Different types. Mesopotamian languages are full of homonyms: gallu or gallû itself can also mean "soldier" or an equivalent to our "policeman". - Ev (talk) 15:57, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

State first to throw a million men into war?

Lotsofissues 13:09, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

The Achaemenid Empire, if you believe Herodotus...but no one does. Adam Bishop (talk) 13:13, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

The Roman Empire probably could have. Or India. Or, if it doesn't matter if they were all on the same side, maybe China. The Maurya empire had 50 million people at it's peak, the roman empire between 70 and 100 million 400 years later. A large part of the roman army seems to have been used for defence of it's huge borders, which might count as a war. at the time of the Maurya empire, the chinese Zhou empire was ending in a civil war. I don't know any exact numbers though, but I suspect it must be one of these three.HS7 (talk) 20:05, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

The Qin Empire of China (221-206BC) (which emerged the winner after the centuries of civil war that ended the Zhou Dynasty) had an army of over a million. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 03:09, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Douglas MacArthur

How popular was it to name a child after Douglas MacArthur during World War II? What references show this?--Doug 13:22, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, I doubt many people changed their child’s last name, so probably not that popular. --S.dedalus (talk) 21:43, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Good point! I will reword the question: Were there an unusual number of new born sons named Douglas during the time of WWII because of the popularity of Douglas MacArthur? Sources that say this?--Doug 21:54, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I went here and calculated the numbers of Douglases per decade as a crudely rounded percentage of the total through the twentieth century. I'm not going to even try to cobble together an ASCII graph of the results, but here they are in tabular form:

1900–09—.06

1910–19—.09

1920–29—.1

1930–39—.2

1940–49—.5

1950–59—.7

1960–69—.7

1970–79—.4

1980–89—.2

1990–99—.1

As crude as they might be, these numbers show a marked spike, more in the post–WWII years. Remember that his fame extended into the fifties with the Korean War. --Milkbreath (talk) 22:43, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Interesting. These suggest, but of course do not prove, that it had something to do with MacArthur. Some of the Douglases may have been so named purely because it had become a popular name for baby boys (which in turn may have been because of MacArthur's prominence). The popularity of individual names rises and falls for all sorts of complex reasons, and maybe it would have happened anyway. Then again, maybe MacArthur wasn't kidding when he said "I will return" (he never specified in which form he'd return).  :) -- JackofOz (talk) 04:26, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Not that this will prove the matter, either, I went back and did "Dwight", a rarer name (This is all US data, by the way.):

1900–09—.04

1910–19—.04

1920–29—.04

1930–39—.04

1940–49—.07

1950–59—.1

1960–69—.07

1970–79—.04

1980–89—.02

1990–99—.02

The frequency of the most popular name (Robert, Michael, etc.) stayed in the range 3 to 8 percent throughout. --Milkbreath (talk) 11:15, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

What were Sazonov's Thirteen Points ?

I read that foreign minister of Russian Empire, Sergey Sazonov declared a famous Thirteen Points during First World War that established war aims of Russia. However I was not able to found the exact text of those points or their exact composition. Does anybody now if there is an online text with his points, and what were they ?--Molobo (talk) 15:30, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

The first google hit for 'Sazonov thirteen points' is an article that claims to list them. In case you can't access JSTOR, here they are:

1. The three allied powers have as their primary goal the destruction of German power and the German desire for military domination;
2. Territorial modifications must be determined by the principle of nationality;
3. Russia will annex the lower course of the Niemen River and the eastern portion of Galicia; it will also annex to the kingdom of Poland eastern Posen, southern Silesia, and the western portion of Galicia;
4. France will regain Alsace-Lorraine, and, if it so desires, a portion of the Prussian Rhineland and of the Palatinate;
5. Belgium will receive a significant territorial increase in the vicinity of Aix-la-Chapelle;
6. Denmark will regain Schleswig-Holstein;
7. The kingdom of Hanover will be restored;
8. Austria will be divided into a tripartite monarchy, comprised of the empire of Austria, the kingdom of Bohemia, and the kingdom of Hungary; the Austrian empire will include only its hereditary provinces, the kingdom of Bohemia will be comprised of present-day Bohemia as well as Slovakia, and the Hungarian kingdom will have to reach an understanding with Romania concerning Transylvania;
9. Serbia will annex Bosnia, Herzegovina, Dalmatia, and the northern portion of Albania;
10. Bulgaria will receive from Serbia territorial compensation in Macedonia;
11. Greece will annex the southern portion of Albania, with the exception of Valona, which will fall to Italy;
12. Britain, France, and Japan will divide the German colonies; and
13. Germany and Austria will pay war reparations .

That's (a reconstruction of) the version sent to Paris by the French ambassador to Russia after talks with Sazonov. It should be noted that the thesis of that article is that the points are just Paléologue's write-up of an informal discussion, and never constituted official Russian policy. Algebraist 17:31, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Could these go in the article? Julia Rossi (talk) 01:29, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

why dont citizens of other countries get to vote in U.S. elections

why don't citizens of, say, France, get to vote in U.S. elections, given that they're just as much affected by the results as Americans are...?

Because it would be anarchy. Governments are a group of people who hold a monopoly on the legitimate use of force in a given territory, therefore it makes sense that those within that territory should be the ones to chose that government. Foreign citizens are not bound to the land they are living in and could therefore vote with a shorter time perspective, or with other interests pertinent to his/her country of origin. Besides, voting is a right and rights bring with them certain constraints and obligations that foreign citizens might not want to have.--Yamanbaiia 18:53, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Anarchy is a lack of government, not expanding the suffrage to include non-citizens. The reason citizens of France don't get to vote in US elections is because the US has made voting a right that comes with citizenship—it's as simple as that. You could imagine a situation in which a country allowed non-citizens to vote (say, non-documented immigrants, or people with work visas, etc., or citizens of territories, etc.). It would be unusual to say the least but I don't think it destroys the idea of government itself, anymore than the idea that citizens can vote even if they are not residents of a territory (e.g. by absentee ballot) would. Thousands of Americans vote from other countries, they are not necessarily any more "bound to the land" than, say, a French national living in New York. --Captain Ref Desk (talk) 19:21, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

The "unusual situation" wasn't soo unusual in the US until the 1830s or so; white male non-citizens, immigrants residing in the US could and did vote in some places. Too lazy to dig up a cite. Should be somewhere here. John Z (talk) 21:32, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

In Australia, voting is both a right and a responsibility (as long as you're registered to vote, which is also a responsibility). It's no longer the case, but there were times in our not too distant past where certain persons (eg. British subjects) who were not Australian citizens but resided here could register to vote, and having registered, were then required to vote. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:51, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

The number of supra-national elections is very limited. The two that come to mind are:

• Papal elections, where 80-odd cardinals of various national bishoprics elect the Pope in the papal conclave. Clearly, this is not a sample of universal suffrage.
• Elections for the European parliament, where some 350 Mio Europeans vote for this legislative council by general and trans-national suffrage within the 27 member states.

Bear in mind that trans-national elections are a massive logistic problem. They also pose significant problems in the allocation of seats. Compare this to the US senate, where every state, regardless of the size holds two seats. Also consider that the electoral system of voting varies. In the US, the president is elected indirectly, in some countries you have a proportional system, in others a majoritarian system.

There are stacks of other complicated issues. In many European countries a parliament can dissolve and call for new elections. In the US there is no such option (at least in my understanding). All these conflicting issues have to be tackled and solved before a trans-national election makes any sense and can be implemented. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 22:23, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Italy has seats in its parliament reserved for representation of Italians living abroad. A man who had migrated to Australia many years ago, and who I assume has dual Italian-Australian citizenship, won one of these seats and became an Italian Senator a couple of years ago, but his primary residence is still in Australia. If my assumption about his dual citizenship is correct, he also not only gets to vote in Australian elections, he is required to do so; whereas he's not required to vote in Italian elections. -- JackofOz (talk) 04:18, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Preposterous. By the same token, why don't US citizens get to vote in French elections? No man is an island, after all. AllenHansen (talk) 07:52, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

what's the MOST number of people that could be hidden and unaccounted for without anyone realizing it?

n/t

6.5 billion. Absolutely no one would be able to know where has everybody gone to.--Yamanbaiia 19:10, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't want to be nit-picky but who are "anyone" in this case? Obviously the people being hidden would know they were being hidden, obviously the people hiding them would know. Are we talking about an organization of hiders and an organization of the hidden? Are the hidden being hidden by choice? Why are they being hidden? Does "realizing it" mean knowing the specific reason people are disappearing or just being aware of the disappearances at all?* Does it matter who is being hidden? (The most could be only one if it's the wrong person -- if you hid my wife, I'd know pretty quick!) It's a somewhat silly and unanswerable question if you don't define the parameters a little more carefully. --Captain Ref Desk (talk) 19:16, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

*Just as an example of this: the Manhattan Project was only "secret" in the sense that many people outside the project and even many inside the project did not know it was a project specifically to build an atomic bomb, but there were thousands of people both inside and outside the project that knew there was some sort of secret project. So we say the Manhattan Project was a massive secret, but what we mean is very few people outside the project knew it was made to develop specifically an atomic bomb rather than nobody knew that there was a project at all. Vice-President Truman famously did not know the purpose of the Manhattan Project—but he did know that there was a $2 billion dollar research venture going on in Tennessee, Washington, and New Mexico (and had in fact started to investigate the spending before he was called off it by FDR). --Captain Ref Desk (talk) 19:16, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

If 100% (all) were to disappear, nobody would be left to notice that they are gone.

If 0% (none) were to disappear, nobody would have left to be noticed that they are gone.

Anything in between would be noticed, at least in a reasonably "safe" society, sooner or later.

Bear in mind that societies have existed and still exist where hundreds, thousands, even millions disappear before the "outside world" realises.

--Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 19:34, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Cookatoo! All this time I've been living in one big safe-house and didn't know it! Well, there ya go – that secret's outta tha bag. Julia Rossi (talk) 23:12, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Oops! I am an agent (the name is Smith, James Smith) of the almighty Xenu, he who has whisked you all away to the terrestrial loony bin without anybody realising it.

You have penetrated the Inner Darkness and will be cast into the slavery of the evil Diskus Wikipaedos (that is just a rotund version of the one-way boomerang, by the way). --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 01:33, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Paintings of the Popes in the Vatican

Is there an article on the Vatican's paintings of the Popes in St. Peter's Basilica? The artwork is a line of circular portraits of each Pope. Alientraveller (talk) 18:21, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I assume you are referring to the Basilica of Saint Paul Outside the Walls where numerous holders of the papacy are depicted in a frieze. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 19:57, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

That's the one! Thanks! Alientraveller (talk) 20:13, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

You are welcome. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 21:14, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Gay Nazi Officer

Who was gay in the Nazi Germany? Was Himmler? 190.49.110.46 (talk) 20:07, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

The obvious ones are Ernst Röhm and his deputy Edmund Heines, who were purged in 1934. Himmler wasn't gay. Algebraist 20:07, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

The largest resistance in the WWII

I am working on article on Armia Krajowa, the Polish resistance (now A-class and future FAC). Many sources state it was the largest resistance force in WWII but a few give it the second place after the Yugoslavian partisans (see Armia_Krajowa#endnote_anone). The Yugoslavian partisans article is in pretty bad shape, and I was only able to find information that they numbered about 800,000 in 1945. I am looking for some more numbers, particularly for 1944, when AK numbered about 400,000. In 1945 AK has grew smaller due to hostility from the Soviet Union, while it would appear Yugoslavian partisans grew larger (since they were communist allied; with the coming of the Eastern Front Polish communists - Armia Ludowa grew from ~5,000 in 1943 to 10,000 in early 1944 and 30,000 in mid 1944). Hence I would like to verify if possible the numbers for Yugoslavian partisans in 1944, and also whether there was one of several organizations of them (perhaps the confusion stems from the fact that AK was the largest organization worldwide, but the Yugoslavian partisans refer to the total number of several organizations)? Also, I do wonder what were the numbers for Soviet, Chinese and Soviet partisans... --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 20:10, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Depends on what you define as the "resistance". The Chinese Red Army had 900,000 members in World War II. However, they were re-formed as the Eighth Route Army of the National Revolutionary Army of the Republic of China in 1937 (full scale war broke out slightly earlier in the same year), so was nominally part of the "official" army of China. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 01:00, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

2010 quarter

What will the United States quarter coin look like in 2010, after the 50 State Quarters program has ended? Presumably the obverse will be kept, but what will happen to the eagle on the reverse? --hello, i'm a member | talk to me! 22:12, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Different strokes for different fokes

I have not heard this comment used in any other way than to defend deviation from norm. It does raise the possibility that fokes are different and the reason for the difference is that they follow different rules. For instance, when someone spits on the sidewalk an immediate line is drawn between them and me. I do not spit on the sidewalk because it is disgusting to feel one's shoe slide a little instead of taking firm hold of the concrete and looking down to see where someone has thoughtlessly eliminate their mucus. I consider that the rules I follow and the rules the person who did this follows are irreconcilably different and that like divorce merits separation. Divorce is one way in which irreconcilable differences in the rules that people follow are ultimately and decisively handled. Are there any other ways in which irreconcilable differences in the rules that people follow are ultimately and decisively handled? ${\displaystyle {\aleph _{0}}^{\aleph _{0}}}$ _{(talk) (email)} 23:25, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

For sake of discussion, there's a difference between laws (legality) and rules (customs). Something such as spitting on sidewalks is illegal in the US, Beijing, Singapore and discouraged by consensus in other places – usually for public health reasons. Possibly how people respond to this is "different strokes for different folks", meaning they can choose a way to deal with the prohibition (such as not spitting, spitting into a tissue etc). DSFDF is more to do with choices within legal parameters. In the divorce example for dealing with irreconcilable differences, there may be ways of carrying it out, such as the friendly way (amicably and co-operatively), the angry way (with hostility and endless litigation), between the parties (through mediation say) or in the courts. Or are you looking at other avenues of handling irreconcilable differences (such as in civil disputes, talking it through, moving away, aggression etc)? Not all different strokes are legal and not all have to be laws since there's an area where people are expected to be reasonable. Julia Rossi (talk) 23:58, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

As to degree all rules are made up of variables and in terms of human endeavor variables can have multiple states. What is not often realized is simply the order in which variables are arranged may represent a difference in the rule that the variables combine to make. In other words the most significant variable for me might be not spewing mucus on the sidewalk which for others it may be whether I say "Hello." Usually the violation of another's rule can be overcome by an apology unless the violation happens too much. This is what I expect you mean by "reasonable." However, I am referring to cases in which no apology is offered and no change is made in the rule, making the difference permanently irreconcilable. ${\displaystyle {\aleph _{0}}^{\aleph _{0}}}$ _{(talk) (email)} 00:17, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

That seems to bring in a third option sometimes called, cutting your losses. Someone told me an anecdote possibly from the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying (but it wasn't my find, so I can't verify it) about a man walking down a street with a hole in it and repeatedly falling into that hole, until he decided to take a different street. Julia Rossi (talk) 00:42, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

hummm... are you possibly saying one way irreconcilable differences might become reconciled is if the rule which an individual upholds results in undesirable consequences promoting him to change that rule? ${\displaystyle {\aleph _{0}}^{\aleph _{0}}}$ _{(talk) (email)} 00:59, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I feel the individual need not change that personal rule if it's a valid one, but change it's application and timing. The subject is just reconciling himself to an irreconcilable difference. He just takes another street, not another world. Julia Rossi (talk) 01:13, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

In logic it may only take a change in state of one variable or a change in significance (order) of a set of variables to make a difference reconcilable. Taking an alternate route makes the problem reconcilable. Now if two people are walking home and one wants to use the scenic route and the other the quickest route then unless one yields to the other as to the rule that they will follow an irreconcilable difference occurs that requires separation. 71.100.175.66 (talk) 01:52, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

March 24

Hitler's "compassion"

Inspired by the Gay Nazi section above I saw this in the Rohm article: "as a last act of compassion,

Its the admission of being wrong in one's belief that homosexuality is an acceptable sexual orientation so as to show one's support for and harmony with the Nazi state (ideal of heterosexual orientation) despite being sentenced to death for being a homosexual contrary to the ideal. ${\displaystyle {\aleph _{0}}^{\aleph _{0}}}$ _{(talk) (email)} 00:25, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

In some cultures, the Japanese culture comes to mind, of course, suicide has been regarded as an honorary method to conclude one´s life, whilst an execution was shameful.

Consider that virtually all of the top Nazis (Hitler, Himmler, Goebbels, Goering, Bormann) comitted suicide. Adolf Eichmann is the only major official who did not follow this path.

It does, fortunately, sound entirely alien and sick to us, but granting to somebody the right to suicide was a privilege in the twisted Aryan "Blood and Honour" mythos of the Third Reich. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 00:27, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Is this what explains the many suicides of the youthful and radical followers of Islam? 71.100.1.14 (talk) 00:31, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Martyrdom is entirely different from Seppuku or its German equivalent. --S.dedalus (talk) 00:49, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Would you describe the act of Jesus Christ as somewhere in between? 71.100.175.66 (talk) 01:21, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Would you describe yourself as a troll? :) --S.dedalus (talk) 03:45, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

No, as a Jew. However, your post fits the act of a troll very well. 71.100.175.66 (talk) 08:17, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I will ignore the above posting, as it is logically unrelated to Julia´s query.

On seconds thoughts, if you were on death row, you may prefer suicide to the degrading spectacle of being strapped to some contraption and know that 20 witnesses watch your death throes.

Consider also, that some of the executions in the Third Reich were gruesomely slow executions where victims struggled for half an hour against impending death. The offer of a gun may have been almost a sign of human compassion. As you know, Ernst Röhm refused this offer. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 00:45, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Ah, thanks all – I was wondering about the cultural meaning of even being given the choice. Maybe Röhm had something else at stake. Julia Rossi (talk) 00:49, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

By "else" i mean something in his own mind, to his own way of thinking. Julia Rossi (talk) 00:51, 24 March 2008 (UTC) ...spiritual reconciliation with the ideals of the Nazi State, perhaps for the benefit of his family or friends is what I think is implied by the response above. 71.100.175.66 (talk) 01:40, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm guessing but - family and war pension - being shot as a traitor leaves the family in an awkwards position. Commiting suicide lets them avoid the court martial and firing squad - leaving them with a 'clean slate' - did that make sense.?87.102.16.238 (talk) 10:30, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

American economic history

Is the following objectively correct?: In the 20th Century, lasting/major conflicts have had a positive effect on the American economy: WW1, WW2 and the Vietnam war all gave an good boost to the US economy, primarily through industrial production and employment: but the current Iraq war, although a lasting conflict, has not stimulated the economy, as top-level technology has not significantly increased industrial production nor employment. Thanks for help and information, --AlexSuricata (talk) 01:05, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Nationally I'm unsure, but following internet bubble, and post 9/11 has greatly helped to expand the Northern Virginia area according to this Time article which referred to Fairfax County, Virginia as ""one of the great economic success stories of our time." (albeit because of our so-called "Rich Uncle.) Essentially, government, and government contract jobs makes Fairfax County, Virginia have a unemployement rate of 1.9% incomparison of the national rate of 4.9%. The main reason is that is geographically extremely close to the Nation's Capital, and that many private and public companies and Fortune Five Hundred companies are located within the county's borders. Most of said companies deal with the Military-industrial complex, intelligence gathering, technology/IT/technical for government and companies, lobbying, or just white collar/professional employement. Besides that, Fairfax County, and next door neighbor Loudoun County have the first and second highest medium incomes in the nation respectively, for the same reasons. The Northern Virginia/DC Capital Area is just booming due to the influx of federal spending. As an aside, mine own father works as a Computer program developer and tester for the CIA (I think; he legally can't tell me anything. Kinda cool huh?). I hope this helped to answer at least part of your question. Zidel333 (talk) 01:31, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

It may be that the post-9/11 military spending has helped the DC Metro Area and perhaps other regions dependent on military spending, but nationally it is hard to find a positive effect. Instead, spending on the Iraq war and other military activity has increased the budget deficit and contributed to the U.S. current account deficit, to the detriment of the overall economy. Also, the pouring of resources into essentially unproductive uses instead of into productive infrastructure or other capital weakens the U.S. economy in the long run. In fact, while the Vietnam War stimulated the economy in the short run, in the somewhat longer run, it undermined the dollar by forcing the collapse of the Bretton Woods system and led to the harmful stagflation of the 1970s. I think that if you look closely at the supposed positive economic effects of wars, they amount to no more than short-term stimulus that does the economy more harm than good long-term. While a long-term boom followed World War II, after a late-40s recession, this can be better explained by structural factors that favored the U.S. economy in the aftermath of the war than by the warmaking itself. No war since has placed the United States in a such a favorable global position, and arguably every war since the Korean War has weakened the position of the United States in the global economy. Marco polo (talk) 02:16, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Break-up of the Soviet Union

How strongly did the Soviet Union in the period 1981-1991 fear a possible coming civil war? Thanks, --AlexSuricata (talk) 01:16, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

What broke the State occurred at the top and not the middle or the bottom. 71.100.175.66 (talk) 01:25, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Very strongly, although 71.100.175.66 is essentially correct. --hello, i'm a member | talk to me! 01:29, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Erm is that true? Did anyone in the soviet union say in 1985 even vaguely fear civil war. This is news to me. References please etc??87.102.16.238 (talk) 11:15, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Post 1985, but: There was the August coup (1991) against Gorbachev, there was his resignation and the dissolution of the Supreme Soviet. Under Yeltsin there was widespread corruption, economic collapse and the 1993 Russian constitutional crisis when the parliament was shelled by tanks.

If you imagine similar events: President X steps down, Congress and Senate dissolve, California and the newly formed Confederate States cede from the Union. The role of the armed forces is not necessarily clear cut as tanks are rolling towards Washington. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 13:46, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Nazi justice and foreign workers

First, my belated thanks to the person who gave such a wonderful response to my last set of questions on the Nazi state. I would like to build on this by asking one more. Germany had a huge number of foreign workers from 1940 onwards, some forced and some voluntary. I would like to know precisely how crimes, misdemeanours and the like committed by these people were treated by the normal apparatus of law and justice? Some were treated worse than others, I know, but precisely how? Tee Pot (talk) 13:26, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Attitude towards disabled people in Buddhism

I have heard and sometimes read that certain elements of Buddhism discriminate people born with disabilities as they believe it to be punishment for former life. I would be greateful for more information on that subject.--Molobo (talk) 14:41, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

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