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Military history: Baltic states / European / Polish / World War II Start‑class

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Old talk

For some old discussions, see Talk:Dubingiai.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 01:03, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Irrelevant image

Image:Armia Krajowa killings 2.jpg is not relevant. Not only is the source dubious, but the image simply has nothing to to with Dubingiai massacre. Caption states: "Killed Lithuanians by Armia Krajowa" - this could have happened anywhere. A much better picture would be a monument in the village; is there a one? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 01:03, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Image is completely relevant. Image shows killed civilians, who there killed by Armia Krajowa in 23 June, 1944 in Molėtai district (there Dubingiai is).Article covers this time and area and specific subject. I also should note that you failed to produce any academic sources, which denounce specific facts, which supports your speculation about "dubious source". M.K. (talk) 08:52, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Anything written by Garšva is as reliable as works of Irving, as the relevant articles (Vilnija) demonstrate. Please provide a reference to your claim that the image shows what it you claim it shows.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 20:07, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

If you have undisputed facts that presented photo is falsification - present the these sources and facts. Currently you failed to produce any academic facts, which would contradict photo material presented in article. Reference of photo you will find and in presented cource. WP:IDONTLIKEIT is not and argument to delete and other information. M.K. (talk) 10:39, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Removal of the info is supported by WP:RS and WP:FRINGE, among others. In other words, Vilnija claims are not encyclopedic.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:13, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

You failed to a) produce any academic source, which support your view that this image is not relevant here b) personal speculations is not an argument, especially proclaiming something as FRINGE. Therefore image is restored. M.K. (talk) 15:02, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

And you have failed to present a source that states the photo represents people killed in Dubingiai.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 16:15, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

70-100?

Please provide quotations and translations for the 70-100 victims range. Please provide those particularly for Rimantas Zizas Arūnas Bubnys; I am sure that KG and Vilnija make such claims - but they are hardly reliable. Also, please provide the quotation for Kozłowski's claim about Joniškis.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 21:22, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Update: I am glad to see that the ref to KG was removed without much fuss. Now, if we can get exact citations for those other claims? Do note that the issue is primarily the confusion between casualties in Dubingai; I have sources that in that period there were indeed other actions of AK that resulted in casualties among the civilian bystanders, so this is not disputed (although it would be good to have exact citations for exact numbers - who wrote 70, who wrote a 100...).--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 22:08, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Citations provided, there are more facts provided. As a gesture of I do insist that you' remove antisemitic references of yours and your friend in other articles, would you?--Lokyz (talk) 22:34, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. If you can show any article where antisemitic sources are used to make antisemitic claims, I will remove them ASAP.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 22:36, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Just a hint:Holocaust deniers are generally considered unreliable sources in Western civilization.--Lokyz (talk) 22:54, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Łupaszko or Rakoczy

Can we have a ref for Łupaszko being the commander of the unit that carried out the massacre? I have a ref in front of me that notes that the company of AK 5th Brigade that carried out the executions in Dubniki was commanded by lt. "Rakoczy" (Jan Wiktor Wiącek). For the record, Zygmunt Szendzielarz "Łupaszko" was the commander of the 5th Brigade. It is likely that some sources erroneously attribute the event to him as the unit commander, even through he was not on spot and it was "Rakoczy" who was in fact the commander on spot. PS. To clarify: can we have a ref for his direct involvement? Being a commander of a unit whose subunit does something without order and not in a presence of its superior officer should not portrayed as "a unit under the command of a superior officer did this and that".--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 21:38, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Mass murder or executions?

Please provide the ref (with original and translation if necessary) for the term "mass murder"; the ref I have in front of me (which I will soon use to expand this article) refers to the event as "executions" (pl. "rozstrzelanie").--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 21:41, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Civilians

I do not intend to go into edit warring and violate WP:3RR, you're trying to force me into. Just let me provide translation of the citation (presented on the main page) for antoher time: "Translation=Especially brutally were murdered Dubingiai inhabitants on the end of June 1944. According to a non final data Polish partisants did kill here around 70 peacefull people, including old men and underage kids." Please explain, what word exactly describes killed people as"non civil", "military", "agressors", "collaborant" and any other. I do understand, that someone might find, that "old men" and "underage children" is not enough to be "civil" population, but the source say just that.--Lokyz (talk) 23:10, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

The translation suffers from poor grammar and ambiguity. First of all, it suggest that - contrary to all other sources - in Dubingaiai itself 70, not 27, people were killed. Second, "peacefull people" is very unclear. I am not disputing that some innocent bystanders were killed, but how many? Were all 70 innocent bystanders? Polish sources note that there were such casualties, but also note that the victims included members of Nazi-Lithuanian police forces and administration, as well as the fact that many executed civilians were either informants of the police/Nazis or fought against the Poles. The story is quite different when the "old men" become "informants" and "underage kids" - "child soldiers" (many partisans, Polish and presumably Lithuanian, were underage - being 13 or 14 years old did not prevent over 2000 of children to take part in Warsaw Uprising, for example). PS. For the record, I don't consider you edit warring on this article, replacing tags with citations - or adding tags with explanations to a new place - is not edit warring; only repeating removal (or addition) of the same information or tag in the same place would qualify. I think we are making nice progress here improving this article.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 23:20, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

No wonder indeed, if you kill someone in retaliation just for having a Lithuanian prayer book (why did this referenced information was removed?), you need some reasons to state for public.

And your assumptions about child soldiers do not hold water either. The books has many more facts - including Polish killings of Lithuanian teachers and foresters, and also clear statement that AK in this region did evade direct actions against Nazi, focusing their efforts only to Soviet partisants and local Lithuanian administration.--Lokyz (talk) 08:31, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

The prayer book information makes little sense and is contradictory to other sources. Can you provide a larger - let's say, paragraph - quotation, translation and another source that confirms that possession of the prayer book was the main reason for being killed? I have plenty of sources that describe AK fights with the Germans, although due to such high level of Lithuanian collaboration Germans were indeed able to significantly lessen their presence near Vilna, hence by simple numbers and odds most of AK anti-Nazi operations encountered Lithuanian opposition, not German. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 16:46, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

As for now you haven't provided a SINGLE translated WORD to support you allegations, although you insist Polish point of view is "reliable" (installing Polish newspaper scrap, and removing Lithuanian newspaper as not reliable - well, because it is newspaper). Remember, this is still English Misplaced Pages, not Polish.

Please note, we are talking about documented killings by Polish side, and note, that I did show good will removing reference to a person, you did attack personally violating WP:LIVING, and also I did provide citations you requested. And please note, you did interpret and twist them them without any supporting evidence. So I do not conbsider your evidence worth a dime, unless you provide translated citations, and I do reserve my right to interpret them, the way you did. Furthermore - what you did in this article, is a justification of mass murder of civilian people (including children). Think about it, and think how other people would think about you after such statement.

FYI - there is evidnece, that there were 4 children killed in their cradles (including three months old child), and one 10 years girl raped and killed. Were those also "children soldiers"? And killed whole families holding rosaries and prayer books were also enemies?.--Lokyz (talk) 23:32, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't intend to continue the discussion if you will misinterpret my statements into such lies. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 04:22, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Dubious claims

Apart from non encyclopedic language which was employed in this article, I would like to request that proper citations should be provided to identify who proclaimed "Lithuanian units" as "guilty". there was any trial? Or this is routine AK's terror excuse by non existing proclamation of guilt. Second I refuse to believe that Polish sources actually notes that killing civilian population was "success" as relevant article parts implies, exact citations and translations are requested. M.K. (talk) 15:08, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

The guilty were determined by the AK Special Tribunal (akin to military tribunal). Translation - Piskunowicz, p.57: "Only the drastic methods, which unintentionally affected the Lithuanian population on the pre-war territory of the Lithuanian state, made the Lithuanian political elites realize that further repressions aganst the Poles will not be tolerated and will result in immediate Polish reprisal. Lithuanians did not use any reprisals . The AK Vilna Region HQ had no intention of fighting with the Lithuanian civilians. However once again it was shown that even a planned reprisal limited to members of police formation and administration involved in repressions could escalate and result in tragedies of uninvolved, innocent people. It should be noted that was the only reprisal action of such type ever carried out by AK during the Nazi occupation as a result of an order from any AK regional HQ." --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 16:53, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

As long as we talk about dubious claims, the issue of 200 victims, sourced to some rather unknown Lithuanian newspaper, was discussed here. Per WP:RS and WP:V: "exceptional claims require exceptional sources". Doubling the range of victims requires something more than one newspaper.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 04:28, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

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