Revision as of 21:21, 27 March 2008

Click here to add a new enforcement request
For appeals: create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}
See also: Logged AE sanctions

Important informationShortcuts WP:AE WP:ARE Please use this page only to: request administrative action against editors violating a remedy (not merely a principle) or an injunction in an Arbitration Committee decision, or a contentious topic restriction imposed by an administrator, request contentious topic restrictions against previously alerted editors who engage in misconduct in a topic area designated as a contentious topic, request page restrictions (e.g. revert restrictions) on pages that are being disrupted in topic areas designated as contentious topics, or appeal arbitration enforcement actions (including contentious topic restrictions) to uninvolved administrators. For all other problems, including content disagreements or the enforcement of community-imposed sanctions, please use the other fora described in the dispute resolution process. To appeal Arbitration Committee decisions, please use the clarification and amendment noticeboard. Only autoconfirmed users may file enforcement requests here; requests filed by IPs or accounts less than four days old or with less than 10 edits will be removed. All users are welcome to comment on requests except where doing so would violate an active restriction (such as an extended-confirmed restriction). If you make an enforcement request or comment on a request, your own conduct may be examined as well, and you may be sanctioned for it. Enforcement requests and statements in response to them may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator. (Word Count Tool) Statements must be made in separate sections. Non-compliant contributions may be removed or shortened by administrators. Disruptive contributions such as personal attacks, or groundless or vexatious complaints, may result in blocks or other sanctions. To make an enforcement request, click on the link above this box and supply all required information. Incomplete requests may be ignored. Requests reporting diffs older than one week may be declined as stale. To appeal a contentious topic restriction or other enforcement decision, please create a new section and use the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}. Appeals and administrator modifications of contentious topics restrictions The Arbitration Committee procedures relating to modifications of contentious topic restrictions state the following: All contentious topic restrictions (and logged warnings) may be appealed. Only the restricted editor may appeal an editor restriction. Any editor may appeal a page restriction. The appeal process has three possible stages. An editor appealing a restriction may: ask the administrator who first made the contentious topic restrictions (the "enforcing administrator") to reconsider their original decision; request review at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") or at the administrators' noticeboard ("AN"); and submit a request for amendment ("ARCA"). If the editor is blocked, the appeal may be made by email. Appeals submitted at AE or AN must be submitted using the applicable template. A rough consensus of administrators at AE or editors at AN may specify a period of up to one year during which no appeals (other than an appeal to ARCA) may be submitted. Changing or revoking a contentious topic restriction An administrator may only modify or revoke a contentious topic restriction if a formal appeal is successful or if one of the following exceptions applies: The administrator who originally imposed the contentious topic restriction (the "enforcing administrator") affirmatively consents to the change, or is no longer an administrator; or The contentious topic restriction was imposed (or last renewed) more than a year ago and: the restriction was imposed by a single administrator, or the restriction was an indefinite block. A formal appeal is successful only if one of the following agrees with revoking or changing the contentious topic restriction: a clear consensus of uninvolved administrators at AE, a clear consensus of uninvolved editors at AN, a majority of the Arbitration Committee, acting through a motion at ARCA. Any administrator who revokes or changes a contentious topic restriction out of process (i.e. without the above conditions being met) may, at the discretion of the Arbitration Committee, be desysopped. Standard of review On community review Uninvolved administrators at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") and uninvolved editors at the administrators' noticeboard ("AN") should revoke or modify a contentious topic restriction on appeal if: the action was inconsistent with the contentious topics procedure or applicable policy (i.e. the action was out of process), the action was not reasonably necessary to prevent damage or disruption when first imposed, or the action is no longer reasonably necessary to prevent damage or disruption. On Arbitration Committee review Arbitrators hearing an appeal at a request for amendment ("ARCA") will generally overturn a contentious topic restriction only if: the action was inconsistent with the contentious topics procedure or applicable policy (i.e. the action was out of process), the action represents an unreasonable exercise of administrative enforcement discretion, or compelling circumstances warrant the full Committee's action. The administrator may indicate consent at any time before, during, or after imposition of the restriction. This criterion does not apply if the original action was imposed as a result of rough consensus at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard, as there would be no single enforcing administrator. Appeals and administrator modifications of non-contentious topics sanctions The Arbitration Committee procedures relating to modifications and appeals state: Appeals by sanctioned editors Appeals may be made only by the editor under sanction and only for a currently active sanction. Requests for modification of page restrictions may be made by any editor. The process has three possible stages (see "Important notes" below). The editor may: ask the enforcing administrator to reconsider their original decision; request review at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard ("AE") or at the administrators’ noticeboard ("AN"); and submit a request for amendment at the amendment requests page ("ARCA"). If the editor is blocked, the appeal may be made by email through Special:EmailUser/Arbitration Committee (or, if email access is revoked, to arbcom-enwikimedia.org). Modifications by administrators No administrator may modify or remove a sanction placed by another administrator without: the explicit prior affirmative consent of the enforcing administrator; or prior affirmative agreement for the modification at (a) AE or (b) AN or (c) ARCA (see "Important notes" below). Administrators modifying sanctions out of process may at the discretion of the committee be desysopped. Nothing in this section prevents an administrator from replacing an existing sanction issued by another administrator with a new sanction if fresh misconduct has taken place after the existing sanction was applied. Administrators are free to modify sanctions placed by former administrators – that is, editors who do not have the administrator permission enabled (due to a temporary or permanent relinquishment or desysop) – without regard to the requirements of this section. If an administrator modifies a sanction placed by a former administrator, the administrator who made the modification becomes the "enforcing administrator". If a former administrator regains the tools, the provisions of this section again apply to their unmodified enforcement actions. Important notes: For a request to succeed, either (i) the clear and substantial consensus of (a) uninvolved administrators at AE or (b) uninvolved editors at AN or (ii) a passing motion of arbitrators at ARCA is required. If consensus at AE or AN is unclear, the status quo prevails. While asking the enforcing administrator and seeking reviews at AN or AE are not mandatory prior to seeking a decision from the committee, once the committee has reviewed a request, further substantive review at any forum is barred. The sole exception is editors under an active sanction who may still request an easing or removal of the sanction on the grounds that said sanction is no longer needed, but such requests may only be made once every six months, or whatever longer period the committee may specify. These provisions apply only to contentious topic restrictions placed by administrators and to blocks placed by administrators to enforce arbitration case decisions. They do not apply to sanctions directly authorized by the committee, and enacted either by arbitrators or by arbitration clerks, or to special functionary blocks of whatever nature. All actions designated as arbitration enforcement actions, including those alleged to be out of process or against existing policy, must first be appealed following arbitration enforcement procedures to establish if such enforcement is inappropriate before the action may be reversed or formally discussed at another venue. Information for administrators processing requests Thank you for participating in this area. AE works best if there are a variety of admins bringing their expertise to each case. There is no expectation to comment on every case, and the Arbitration Committee (ArbCom) thanks all admins for whatever time they can give. A couple of reminders: Before commenting, please familiarise yourself with the referenced ArbCom case. Please also read all the evidence (including diffs) presented in the AE request. When a request widens to include editors beyond the initial request, these editors must be notified and the notifications recorded in the same way as for the initial editor against whom sanctions were requested. Where some part of the outcome is clear, a partial close may be implemented and noted as "Result concerning X". Enforcement measures in arbitration cases should be construed liberally to protect Misplaced Pages and keep it running efficiently. Some of the behaviour described in an enforcement request might not be restricted by ArbCom. However, it may violate other Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines; you may use administrative discretion to resolve it. More than one side in a dispute may have ArbCom conduct rulings applicable to them. Please ensure these are investigated. Closing a thread: Once an issue is resolved, enclose it between {{hat}} and {{hab}} tags. A bot should archive it in 7 days. Please consider referring the case to ARCA if the outcome is a recommendation to do so or the issue regards administrator conduct. You can use the templates {{uw-aeblock}} (for blocks) or {{AE sanction}} (for other contentious topic restrictions) to give notice of sanctions on user talk pages. Please log sanctions in the Arbitration enforcement log. Thanks again for helping. If you have any questions, please post on the talk page.

Edit this section for new requests

Lokyz

Lokyz (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is subject since mid-December to a general civility "don't create a battleground" sanction (the "Digwuren sanction"). The user has been rather inactive till mid-March, when he became more active and since than he has posted many inflammatory posts. Having recently posted accusations of "antisemitism, polnish revanshism, making idiot of people" and most recently of "justifying of mass murder of civilian people (including children)" - which I believe qualify as being "uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith" - I think it is high time that the above sanction is enforced and civility restored to related discussions. Please see below for the list of offensive diffs. PS. Please consider whether one diff from March 13 may need to be erased via oversight per WP:LIVING. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:15, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

• March 13: edit summary of a revert: "wikipedia is not a place for antisemitic propaganda, even if it is disguised as polnish revanshism"
• March 13: edit summary: "Lossowski is known to be blind on obviuos non-patriotic facts" - this may fall under WP:BIO as the edit summary is highly offensive to a respected Polish historian, Piotr Łossowski
• March 15: "instead of dealing false occusations could you please visit nearest library and read material on the subject?" ... "request - would you please try to act more like Encyclopedist, not a prosecutor or, as sometimes seems persecutor for the articles you seem not to like."
• March 15: "Please stop disrupting humanitarian sciences as a whole, making idiot of people"
• March 18: I've read some really disgusting "patriotic" thoughts by the author we're discussing now. But well, if such tone of the articles fits you - de gustibus non disputandum, i do not intend to violate WP:LIVING and create an article to destroy image of author you do not know, and do not have a clue about.
• March 18: . I'm once again surprised what "reliable" sources Halibutt and Piotrus are using, no less i'm surpised that such rubbish is considered a WP:RS, and I'm raher sad, that such porpaganda is allowed in Poland (as .pl domain suggest)
• March 24: Is this a P. civilization downfall? (P. presumably for Polish)
• March 25: accuse others of adding antisemitic references
• March 25: next, of using holocaust denial sources
• March 26: "installing Polish newspaper scrap"... "Remember, this is still English Misplaced Pages, not Polish."... "you did interpret and twist them them without any supporting evidence"... "what you did in this article, is a justification of mass murder of civilian people (including children). Think about it, and think how other people would think about you after such statement"

Note: Piotrus maintains a black book on multiple contibutors off-line, something he refused to stop when asked as late as a week ago. The aim of this is to "win" content arguments through achieving the sanctions of the opposite side. Also a disclosure that may matter. As far as I am aware, Piotrus, unhappy with the lack of quick action he was seeking shopped for a friendly closure at #admins today. Hope this helps. I hope this will not end up by rewarding the side in the argument that is simply more devious. --Irpen 21:21, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Anon IPs

There's a bunch of anonymous IPs who have been engaged in disruptive acitivity for quite some time now. The recent ones are 70.21.139.214 (talk · contribs), 149.68.31.146 (talk · contribs) and 69.125.221.82 (talk · contribs). All 3 have been attacking Azerbaijan related images in wikipedia (check their contribs) and commons: acting as a tag team. The IPs in 149 range appear to be related with banned Azerbaboon (talk · contribs), see this CU where they are listed: Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/Azerbaboon. One of the IPs in that range uses the same ethnic slur as used by the banned user: In addition, these IPs might be related with User:Erkusukes, who according to cu on Azerbaboon edits from open proxies and "has a few edits from a business in the same vicinity". The IPs have been reverting the article Caucasian Albania in support of Erkusukes. This coordinated activity deserves investigation, and I filed a CU here: Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/Erkusukes. However, the activity of IPs deserves the attention of the admins right now, as they continue edit warring on various articles and bait users restricted by arbcom parole. Here's the latest revert by anon IP without any discussion on talk, which resulted in removal of a large chunk of information from the article: --Grandmaster (talk) 07:20, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

User:Darwinek

• Arbitration: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Darwinek
• Darwinek (talk · contribs) had been placed on parole for a year, and was de-sysopped. He was re-sysopped after some months, something which is very hard to understand.

On Talk:Duchy of Teschen, he had accused my of using sockpuppets and that he will be glad to revert (Matthead) again and again. Now he is confident that his civility parole ends in ten days and that the "alleged sockpuppetry can be easily checked by WP:CHECKUSER". I suggest to check whether his parole should be extended or not, and granting him the CU on me and that IP.

Please be also aware of

• Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive254#User:Darwinek_-_Block_review_needed
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/Arbitration_enforcement/Archive11#Darwinek_and_breach_of_standard_civility_parole

Sorry, for not having time to prepare diffs. It's holidays, after all, and some have to work tomorrow today (it's Tuesday over here).-- Matthead  Discuß   23:21, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Nice to hear from you again, especially that you refer to edits two months old ... After all, you don't have to worry, only some users have checkuser rights and I do not belong to them, I can however file checkuser request on you, the same way you can request it on me etc. No issue here. It is also sad to hear complaints about civility issues from man who (among others) created a template with Nazi flag on it some time ago (it was deleted afterwards). - Darwinek (talk) 00:17, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I edited several templates (and created the deleted Template:Sudetenland, nominated by you as "Extremely divisive and non-NPOV template created for unkown purposes", see Misplaced Pages:Templates for deletion/Log/2007 December 27) and articles with the "Nazi flag" on them, simply because it belongs to them. Besides, I'm convinced you again violated Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Digwuren#Editors_warned: "All editors are warned that future attempts to use Misplaced Pages as a battleground—in particular, by making generalized accusations that persons of a particular national or ethnic group are engaged in Holocaust denial or harbor Nazi sympathies—may result in the imposition of summary bans when the matter is reported to the Committee." Please refrain from using "Nazi this" and "Nazi that" - you probably have grown up in a Communist country, but I do not mention "Commie" on any other occasion. -- Matthead  Discuß   02:36, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Darwinek doesn't use "Nazi this" and "Nazi that", you created a template and you put a Nazi flag into the heading of this template. And you know very well that it would appear in a 1/3 of Czech cities and villages, so as a "side-effect" those villages and cities articles would have a shiny Nazi flag waving in the bottom part. If this is not a highly controversial, disruptive and whatever then what is? And you call him explicitly a "Commie" that is a clear blatant personal attack violating a parole you have been placed on! ≈Tulkolahten≈ 08:24, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Darwinek is a good solid editor and you have not provided any diffs so there really is no case. In the two that you provided, the only thing wrong is that accusing someone of sockpuppetry is harsh, but not against policy, a user can express suspicion anytime he/she wishes and if you're willing to submit to CHECKUSER, prove him wrong, I'm sure Darwinek would be happy to apologise if he is proven wrong. The Dominator (talk) 00:36, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

There is no case if no diffs are provided? Sorry, but Darwinek was placed under parole by admins, not by me, and admins should keep an eye on him, not regular users who encounter him. How come you defend both Tulkolathen and Darwinek, anyway, and make comments like "someone of sockpuppetry is harsh, but not against policy, a user can express suspicion anytime"? Do we now have a policy of "assume bad faith"? Are you willing to prove you are neither Tulkolathen nor Darwinek nor any other editor or IP accordingly? If someone makes accusations of sockpuppetry, then some evidence should be provided in advance, rather than an apology in hindsight. -- Matthead  Discuß   02:36, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I asked Dominator, as he is a well established trustworthy editor, to provide a verification of my translation below, where you accused me that I put a totally unsourced claim. ≈Tulkolahten≈ 08:38, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, if you don't provide diffs then nothing can be done really, at least nothing can be conveniently done. I did not defend Tulkolahten, I said that his edit summaries are inappropriate and that you should both discuss the matter in a civil manner. Why I commented on both of them?

1. Tulkolahten left a comment on my talk page asking me to verify his translation so I left a comment as well.
2. I know them both from the Czech Republic Wikiproject and know they're quality contributors.
3. It's practically the same case, same user etc.

And yes, Darwinek hadn't assumed good faith when he accused you of sockpuppetry, but you were both guilty of not assuming good faith. As for whether I'm Tulkolahten and/or Darwinek, WTF? WP:POINT, that you and an IP are sockpuppets is plausible (not saying it's true or not true), but accusing a group of editors that have thousands of edits and date back to years before of sockpuppetry? Of course, you are entitled to think so and if somebody shares your concern, I'll submit to CHECKUSER, why not? The Dominator (talk) 02:47, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Are we discussing Tulkolahten or Darwinek? As Dominik said, Darwinek was somewhat harsh, but discussion of sockpuppetry is acceptable, he has the full right to request the checkuser, and if his theory is not proven correct, that's the end of the story. If he continues to bring the accusations after the check, it will be another story, until then there is nothing for the AE to review. I'd also note that you, Matthead, are on a relatively thin ice, with being on general sanction on EE topics (Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Digwuren#Log_of_blocks_and_bans) - and your behavior in the article you mention not being perfectly stellar. So I suggest you both call it quits, and try to reach a peaceful compromise instead of escalating the matter.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 07:06, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

• Comment:

I think that there are several Matthead's breach of the Digwuren parole where Matthed has been placed on .

Here is Darwinek explicitly called a Commie by Matthead. And here is Darwinek's parole used to thrust down his arguments and invalidate him in the further discussion.

≈Tulkolahten≈ 21:52, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Restriction violation (?) and insults

This user seems to have broken this restriction , here . Two reverts in one day. I've reported here . The moderator suggest me to write here.

I just wrote to tell: 1) If I try to give a small contribute (right or wrong) in a respectful way, there is no reason to call me "frustrate" or "insignificant". 2) It's on you to judge if one user broke a restriction and if both users are members of a sort nationalistic wikipedian-club, as claimed by some people (just read around!!!). Regards. --217.202.86.126 (talk) 20:02, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

To make things easier on those looking into this: Demonstrating the first and second revert to his own version of Julian March. — the Sidhekin (talk) 20:08, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

• Thatcher has previously said that "there are at least 5 edit warring editors on Dalmatia issues, they appear to work in groups, and only two of them are currently under Arbcom sanction." The original report here was made by an IP editor that has (based on NYBrad's talkpage) been getting different IPs at different times. Thatcher, can you tell if this is Giovanni Giove who has been community banned? I don't know this dispute area to even begin to answer that question. I think we should evaluate DIREKTOR's behavior independently of the answer to that question, but I don't think we should disregard it. I do see a violation of the 1RR limit, which occurred 3 days ago. I also see use of the talk page. I see no prior entries in the case log for this editor. So I'm inclined to think a short block is appropriate. GRBerry 20:30, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

• I did revert twice in one day (my first violation in six months), but I perceived it as a revert of obvious vandalism by the sock IP. The very fact that this person knows of my restriction should indicate that he/she may very well be a sock of one of the blocked editors from the "Italian side" of the dispute, but this is irrelevant to the matter I suppose. There is a very large number of IPs vandalizing "fringe articles" such as Julian March and Serbs of Croatia on a daily basis, I merely reverted the stuff out of course. The edits were pretty radical, and that article is balanced and has been peaceful for quite a while. Considering the "club", I'll repeat that I am NOT part of any nor do I want to be. The fact of the matter is simply that I live in Dalmatia, and that other users that happen to come from around here are equally offended by these edits. (For example, the widespread use of Italian in stead of English names for Croatian/Slovenian coastal cities and regions.) --DIREKTOR 16:15, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

• I've reviewed the history of the article, and the contribs of DIREKTOR since the last block. I dont consider the changes by the anons to be "vandalism", and think DIREKTOR should be more careful when reverting, but this revert is out of character, and occurred while there was an edit war on the article Julian March. Those wishing to make radical changes should discuss the matter respectfully on the talk page if they wish to be taken seriously. John Vandenberg (talk) 13:29, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

• DIREKTOR, meanwhile, did a further violation (revert) here.
  • The article was not "vandalized" as he claims, but it had really few minor (and not "radical") edits.
  • I did not edit wars, because I have discussed my edits (see talk page). I did a research about the problem of the name; the results are IMHO evident. But DIREKTOR and Viator Slovenicus refuse to face the evidence: they want to impose their own version.
  • I've reviewed the history of DIR., he has a imposed his version in several articles, and he has changed several names without discussion.
  • DIREKTOR claims to be the victim of Serbian and Italian groups, on the other side he denyes the esistence of a Croatian group.
  • Even if DIREKTOR *deleted* his restriction from his talk page, it was quite easy to find it.--217.202.2.44 (talk) 13:45, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
    • I have seen the talk page, and you do not have consensus for your changes, so repeating those changes is considered to be edit warring. If you want more people to comment on a topic, notify a related noticeboards, see Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Italy, Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Slovenia and Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Croatia. Do not continue to edit war. John Vandenberg (talk) 14:00, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

• The anon 217.202 IP, who seems to be trying to get DIREKTOR punished somehow for some perceived breach of Wiki rule or guideline, has been openly canvassing to influence the outcome of this discussion. -- AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 16:54, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

• I told the IP in the talkpage to discuss these kind of edits first. One cannot just pop by and remove references to a Julian March in the Julian March article before at least achieving some kind of consensus (indeed, that seemed to me so silly that I considered it vandalism). I did not claim to be a victim of any Serbian and/or Italian group, I merely stated that "fringe" articles are often radically altered by IP weekend editors that do not really care about discussion. And, once again, there is no organized "club" here. In this case this is particularly obvious: I do not even know User:Viator Slovenicus, I vaguely remember him making some edits on Slovenia-related articles but that's all. Two editors objecting to edits can hardly be called a "club". (I didn't delete my restriction from my userpage, I was simply notified of it via message and eventually archived that message, that's all.) --DIREKTOR 17:57, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

User:Tulkolahten

• Arbitration: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Digwuren, namely Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Digwuren#List_of_editors_placed_under_editing_restriction
• Tulkolahten (talk · contribs)

He accuses me of vandalism by reverting my recent edits (which were no reverts) with comments like "rvv" and the like, e.g.

• rv of unexplained revert, please discuss it (followed by an apparent comment on his prior revert simple reverting without any reason is a vandalism)
• rv, not far from vandalism,
• and about 10 reverts marked simply as "rvv", see his recent contribs

or as "nonsense"

• nonsense
• nonsense.

or as revert of "POV"

• rv POV

Tulkolathen reinstates (invalid category removal) two Czech categories for an 19th Century person explicitly described as Austrian in the only reference given , thus exposing his Czech nationalist POV - or at least anti-Matthead POV. As collateral damage in his revert spree against me, he also reintroduced an inexplicable "Czech composer" category for a Slovene, again with his trademark rvv.

Regarding the German noble laureate Peter Grünberg, it was also Tulkolathen who introduced an totally unsourced statement (which since showed up in Wiki mirrors) into the article. And it was also Tulkolathen who removed the fact that Grünberg's father died in Czech imprisonment and was in buried in a Czech mass grave .

I'm tired of having my work blindly negated by a stalker who e.g. shows up at articles soon after I have created them . Please include him at least in the list of editors placed under editing restriction, too. Thanks in advance! -- Matthead  Discuß   20:34, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Comment: I reverted these changes , , , , , , , , as far as I see in Matthead's edits a complex form of vandalism where he tries to find a plenty of Czech (or Bohemian) people and institutions and at least deletes mentions about them being bohemians. Like for example here . He behaves similarly in the articles about Poles, he was warned by the administrator Ioeth for his disruptive behavior . The revert , he worked in Bohemia and Moravia also and thus that category is perfectly valid, the reason I reverted it was your addition of Holy Roman Empire, why? Administrator Antandrus agreed that mentioning Holy Roman Empire is redundant and a base for claims he was Austrian (another Matthead's attempt) ≈Tulkolahten≈ 20:49, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

User:Antandrus, whose edits had also been "rvv-ed", made two entries at User talk:Tulkolahten you accuse me of vandalism? This is good and Slovene: yes. It's hard to imagine that "Administrator Antandrus agreed that mentioning Holy Roman Empire is redundant" with these comments, Tulkolahten surely refers to something else. -- Matthead  Discuß   21:15, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

We did discuss it with Antandrus that I didn't revert his edits. You are not saying whole truth, you know that, you just pick what you need! You also didn't mention that administrator Antandrus offered us a third point of view, which I accepted, but you probably rejected (evidence: ) ≈Tulkolahten≈ 21:18, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I probably rejected? Is that your way of assuming good faith? -- Matthead  Discuß   21:45, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Comment: My addition to Peter Grunberg is sourced (info.plzen-city.cz/attach/1002670080314124444.doc):

Nejrozšířenější (seriózní) německé noviny, deník Süddeutsche Zeitung, označují Petera Grünberga za „rodilého Čecha“. K tomuto závěru je zřejmě přivedl fakt, že fyzikův otec, dipl. ing. Fjodor Grinberg, původně carský důstojník a uprchlík před bolševiky, získal v roce 1936 československé občanství. V roce 1940 se však přihlásil k německé národnosti (jeho druhá manželka Anna Petrmannová patřila k sudetoněmecké menšině) a získal občanství říšské. Tehdy si také změnil příjmení.

Translation:

German newspapers, Suddeutsche Zeitung, marks PEter Grunberg as born Czech, but they were lead to this statement probably by the fact, that physics father Fjodor Grinberd, originally russian officer and refugee from the bolcheviks, gained in 1936 Czechoslovakian citizenship. In 1940 he became German (his second wife Anna Petrmann came to Sudeten Germans) and gained German citizenship. He also changed his surname.

Any member of the WikiProject Czech Republic can confirm this source and provide verification or better translation. ≈Tulkolahten≈ 21:08, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm a completely uninvolved user who speaks Czech. Here is a more contextual translation: "The most widely distributed reputable German news daily, Sueddeutsche Zeitung, identify Peter Gruenberg as 'born as a Czech'. They apparently conclude this based on the fact that the physicist's father, Fjodor Grinberg, originally a czarist military officer and a refugee from the bolsheviks, gained Czech citizenship in 1936. In 1940, however, he claimed German nationality (his second wife Anna Petrmannova belonged to the German sudetenlander minority) and thereby obtained Reich citizenship. At that point he also changed his last name." Hope this helps, I am ignorant of the issues in this case and will not get involved further. Martinp (talk) 15:37, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

A document about an event in March 2008 can reference an edit made in October 2007? The CV provided at info.plzen-city.cz includes "Rodiče: Dipl.-Ing. Feodor A. Grünberg a Anna Grünberg", which apparently was translated from P. Grünberg's official CV. Its also funny that they add a comment discussing names, citizenships, and the Süddeutsche Zeitung, but forget to mention the fact that father Grünberg died in a Czech prison and lies buried in Pilsen, while the future Nobel Laureat was expelled. -- Matthead  Discuß   21:45, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Some sources, especially printed ones, precedes online, this is the online material I've found ... ≈Tulkolahten≈ 21:50, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to confirm Tulkolahten's translation, this is really complex! I think that most of his edits were in fact justified but Tulkolahten should refrain from calling the edits vandalism or nonsense. Even if they were deliberate bad faith edits, they shouldn't be called vandalism unless they are blatantly obvious. The source does in fact identify this individual as Czech-born and I would call it a reliable source, but the tone of the paragraph also suggests that he wasn't officially Czech, but Czech born should be enough for the Czech related categories to stay in the article. The Dominator (talk) 21:56, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I did not bother to compile a list with wrong-doings (other apparently do so), but a quick look in the history of User talk:Tulkolahten shows rv personal attack, a summary with which Tulkolahten removed a comment with many diffs from his talk page, critizing his edit summary habits. -- Matthead  Discuß   22:07, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

It was a Scurinae's reaction that I got a barnstar by the administraotr Ioeth, that I assumed as a personal attack and I removed it from my talk page. And yes, among the 6,000 edits you may find some that are problematic ... But I always offer a friendly cup of coffee to discuss, and you got it too . ≈Tulkolahten≈ 22:12, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Tulkolahten, you just accused my of being very uncivil -- Matthead  Discuß   22:36, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes I did and I will sign it again, as I explained it here and I still assume it as uncivil. You pulled out one year old arbcom case in the discussion about old maps for no obvious reason? Why did you do that? ≈Tulkolahten≈ 22:39, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

These things can all be avoided by simple discussion. I'm not going to bother to get involved because even if I learned the entire situation, there isn't much I can do as I'm not an admin. I don't know who started reverting, but I think that after one revert, discussion should start, because if the next person reverts, we have an edit war. I think you two should go on a talk page and talk things out. Tulkolahten does indeed need to watch his edit summaries, but all I see from both of you are good faith edits. The Dominator (talk) 22:25, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, Dominator, for your input, I appreciate it. ≈Tulkolahten≈ 22:30, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I also think neither of you are editing in bad faith; you are, however, edit-warring, and have gotten angry at each other. I answered at greater length on my talk page. Compromise here is not only possible, it is desirable, and seems to be within reach. Antandrus (talk) 02:13, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

As I have noted above, Matthead has been put on general sanction w/ regard to EE topics, please see Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Digwuren#Log_of_blocks_and_bans. This should be considered. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 07:07, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Classic content dispute, no issue here. Also I don't know why this complaint was posted on arbitration enforcement noticeboard. - Darwinek (talk) 08:21, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I offered him a cup of coffee a few days ago but he didn't react. Instead of that he continues to wipe out all mentions about Czechs and Poles on the Misplaced Pages and attempts to proof that every important person in the history of the Eastern Europe was German or no-nationality. ≈Tulkolahten≈ 08:48, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

User:AhmadinV

Copied for User talk:Thatcher

I suspect that this is a newly created sockpuppet of user:The Dragon of Bosnia see first edit to Bosnian mujahideen‎ with the comment "again" and compare it with the last edit of user:The Dragon of Bosnia to the same page. As I had just made some minor edits to that page, it would probably be better if you were to look into it. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 00:07, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Checkuser evidence is inconclusive. The IP is in a different country but probably a proxy. You can post an enforcement request at WP:AE. Thatcher 02:48, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

As I wrote above, I suspect that AhmadinV (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) is a newly created sockpuppet of user:Grandy Grandy/user:The Dragon of Bosnia see first edit to Bosnian mujahideen‎ with the comment "again" and compare it with the last edit of user:The Dragon of Bosnia to the same page. user:The Dragon of Bosnia/user:Grandy Grandy has been banned from editing see Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Macedonia#March 2008 - May 2008. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 13:22, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

False accusation. I write my suggestion in talk. I write "again" because I forgot to sign in first time and after that, Clue Bot immidiately revert my edit: , so I created account to save my edit again:. Ahmadin.

Regardless of whether or not this user is a sockpuppet, he engages in edit warring. --Blanchardb--timed 14:02, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

User:AhmadinV, as I had neglected to place any information about this section on your talk page how did you find out about it? You seem very familiar with the workings of Misplaced Pages both at how to edit a page and with Misplaced Pages procedures. How long and have been editing Misplaced Pages and have you used any other accounts? --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 15:12, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I read Misplaced Pages a long time ago. I am not stupid, I look at your contribution, by the way I am programmer in PHP/C/C++. I was administrator in a PHPBB2 forum, I need some practice in communicating and writing in English. I am interested in Arabs articles, because of my origin. Ahmadin.

See also Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets/AhmadinV. --Blanchardb--timed 15:26, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

• AhmadinV put on notice for WP:ARBMAC. . I see that the SSP case regarding a differnet user as a sockpuppet of this one has been withdrawn by the filer. Evaluating The Dragon of Bosnia sockpuppetry, I would say it is likely but not (yet?) confirmed. Suspected - absolutely. GRBerry 21:24, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

A day and a half later

I apologize for not being fully aware of the best way to show that I have offered to not only watch for possible incivilities but also provided the article's own archives as evidence of my actions. The entire thread above was in reference to Durova's stated concern about WP:COPYRIGHT problems yet they even concede that the material should be sourced to the original publisher rather than Youtube which I readily agree with, again. I also wonder why this route was taken rather than just working with other editors to fix the issue, instead of fixing the reference Durova told me to shop the idea at Reliable Sources Board which I think is inappropriate, if they knew the original sources should have been utilized then they could work with others to fix the problem. I don't believe the topic ban has been given fair consideration and being extremely new to this venue would like some uninvolved admins to consider offering opinions and advice as I feel Durova may have a COI being not only involved with the military project but also mentoring Sanchez is some fashion. Durova's offer to filter my insights on the article are interesting at best and I think it's fair to say would effectively silence my involvement altogether as I now feel little good would come of engaging that talk page, at least for a while. I fully support wikipedia's policies and have stated that above. I also don't appreciate the assertion that I want to compromise on article quality either. As for the anon IP vandal, the timing is interesting but is also simply par from the course with Sanchez and I'm well used to these attacks and the anon IP's contributions seemed to match that of Sanchez or a meatpuppet of some sort, sometimes we only have a gut feeling, i can't help that this anon feels to me exactly like a Sanchez sock of some sort, regardless of where the IP is located. I've asked nicely for that to be added to the Log of blocks and bans. Benjiboi 20:27, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I consider the anon IP actions on your talk page to be an irritating red herring. Ultimately, they are irrelevant to the decision as to whether you should be topic banned.

I would not have closed the report above had I not concurred with JzG's action in topic banning. This board is a very low traffic board; for a more thorough review I suggest you first 1) discuss with Guy and 2) if and only if that discussion has occurred and failed take it to a more public forum. I concurred with his topic ban because my review of the article talk page led me to believe that it was more likely than not that the process of reaching a policy compliant consensus on the article would be aided by the topic ban. GRBerry 21:36, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Agree with the IP assessment. I appreciate your response but am still puzzled. The issue was removing content because the sourcing was faulty, if the sourcing was addressed to the original source rather than a secondary source and had been clearly presented as "we need to change to the original sourcing" I would have readily agreed. Instead I'm being painted simply as someone who's trying to disrupt which I'm not. Many of the improvements to that article have been my work. This ban will effectively end my wikipedia career as I don't feel that I should edit anywhere if I'm not suitable to edit. I will take your suggestion to discuss with Guy and appreciate your input even if we disagree. Benjiboi 21:57, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Benjiboi, the copyright issue was separate from the reliable sources issue and concerned different citations. Maybe you got confused because Eleemosynary insisted on copy/pasting an unrelated discussion into the thread about copyright. Either way, if you don't want to work with me you're welcome to use the option JzG provided. And as several people have discovered (including Matt Sanchez), when I support a ban it's a policy matter with no prejudice toward the individual. I've given barnstars to people who were banned. So go ahead and use the noticeboard instead. All I intended to do was give you another option where your concerns could get swifter attention than a low traffic board, and firsthand interaction would ensure that if the concerns that led to the page ban stopped being an issue I'd be on the ball about getting that restriction lifted as swiftly as possible. I juggle a lot of things and the Matt Sanchez article isn't a top priority. The door remains open if you choose to suppose I can be taken at face value. Best wishes, Durova 22:28, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Please just find another article to edit. Your presence on that article is offensive and inflammatory to the subject. Guy (Help!) 22:32, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Durova I appreciate that clarity as I never supported adding material about the subject's "adult entertainment" that wasn't quite RS'd as I knew it would simply be removed anyway. My concern was the copyright issue being used to remove content and felt that we should instead simply used the original source which would indeed be an improvement.

Guy, Sanchez has found every LGBT editor and those who he thought were LGBT and those he perceived to be in some way against him on the talk pages "offensive and inflammatory". I'm happy to follow policies but banning editors based on what the subject of an article wishes? That seems peculiar. Benjiboi 22:54, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Any attempt to stop just LGBT editors from touching his articles would be absolutely out of line--the day BLP subjects get control, or even implied control of such a thing on their articles is the day that anyone trying to enforce such wishes would be on a fast track to losing their sysop bits for trying to enforce them, and the WMF wouldn't even dare to do such a thing. I think it's your history there on your own that Sanchez sees as inflammatory. Guy can correct me if I'm wrong, but if it's just because you're gay: if that is Sanchez's claimed reason, then Sanchez's reasons can be discarded as rubbish. Lawrence § t/e 23:00, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

My point was that Sanchez has targeted myself along with all others he perceived to be LGBT or otherwise against him. And even if Sanchez does find me in some way offensive or inflammatory that still doesn't seem to support a ban. Benjiboi 23:27, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Sanchez' objection is down to the tone of your edits and comments. He doesn't seem to have a problem dealing with other editors who I know are gay. Guy (Help!) 08:53, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) I agree that Sanchez's editor preferences are immaterial. Anyone who acts as a neutral Wikipedian is welcome there as far as I'm concerned whether their tastes are for men, women, or barnyard animals. ;) Seriously, I did not inform Matt Sanchez about the AE thread until after Benjiboi articulated suspicions that the trolling might have originated with Matt. Durova 23:34, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

The anon has stopped for now. Here is the last talk page postings as all the unresolved topics were archived. I have been painted as "filling up the talk page AE thread with irrelevant comments" and ignoring policies which sounds really bad. I hardly claim to be an expert but neither was I saying we must violate our policies to include _____. Instead I have continued to try to improve the article by raising what I saw as POV problems (many of which others agreed with) and pretty much remained civil and on-point with few exceptions. I also worked hard to clean up the talk page and archives to help keep the discussion constructive. Benjiboi 00:41, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Just find another article to edit, please. Guy (Help!) 08:53, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

With respect, I have found lots of other articles to edit but feel a ban against me was unneeded so would like it reversed. I believe I have shown respect not only for the subject who attacked me directly and indirectly, repeatedly, but also tried to show respect for policies and protocols, at least when I was aware of them. I have even tried to show respect for this process. I was never warned, although technically that may not be required, nor was I notified of this thread involving me until I was banned and came here to seek it being reversed. I am still looking for that. Benjiboi 09:29, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Your editing of this article causes distress to the subject, please just leave it alone. It should be no big deal. Guy (Help!) 09:46, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Again, with respect, all sorts of editors who didn't ascribe to his wishes and views cause(d) him distress, I just happen to be one of the current ones. As noted above it doesn't seem like we ban editors from articles because it causes the subject distress. And it's a very big deal to me to be banned just as I consider it a big deal to work at getting any other editor banned from editing wikipedia in part or whole. I have in the past advocated for Sanchez in various ways and still think he could return as a good editor. Benjiboi 10:07, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Regardless of the subject's prejudices (such as they might be), any reasonable person would be distressed by an editor who strongly defends using negative material referenced to third party blogs and other problematic sources. To be clear, he has not expressed a specific complaint about you to me, and to the best of my knowledge he was not aware that a page ban would be proposed against you. Matt has not been pulling the strings to get you banned, and all I asked for when I started this thread was the removal of some contributory copyright infringements. Matt wasn't even aware that I'd be posting here. Durova 17:19, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Benjiboi, I suggest you accept it at face value: the subject has stated that he finds the content of your edits and the tone of your comments distressing, and those of us who have looked into it have concluded that your input is causing more pain than gain on that article. You seem unprepared to walk away without a formal topic ban, so I'm afraid that's what we have had to do. There are over two million more articles out there, so honestly I don't see why this should be such a problem for you. There are plenty of eyes on the article and looking to ensure it remains properly comprehensive and neutral. Allegations of "proxing" and the like are unhelpful, as are assertions that you feel you have been properly respectful to the subject - he doesn't, and that's what matters. It really isn't the kind of thing worth fighting over, I would say, but if you absolutely insist on appealing the ban, which I hope you will not, then you'll need to request it at WP:RFAR because I'm afraid I'm not budging on this at this point. Guy (Help!) 17:57, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Durova, I accept what you state, period. Although my instinct is that something may have been amiss I'm willing to assume good faith as I actually doubt Matt would have been foolish enough to try to engineer these proceedings, I don't think I suggested that but if I did I apologize. Regular comments from Guy have suggested that Matt has mentioned me specifically so that plus the anon homophobic vandal is possibly where I was connecting those dots. The third-party blog in question was a posting of Sanchez's own video and I would have readily agreed to sourcing it to the original publisher had that been suggested, it doesn't seem to have been and instead I sensed you were telling me to forum-shop when we had a handful of admins there who knew better. Knowing what I do now i would have suggested that we simply amend to the original publisher as that would seem to have resolved the issue. Similar for the YouTube sources that started this whole thread, you didn't suggest sourcing them to the original broadcasters until almost the same moment you started this entire process. Had you started with "we need to convert those sources to the original publishers per WP:RS" I think everyone would have agreed, including myself. Instead that seems like it was the last consideration.

Guy, you may be confusing me with Eleemosynary, I didn't suggest this process was rigged, they did; I also shouldn't have assumed that Durova's mentoring Matt elsewhere was a sign of ulterior motives and that was a leap of bad faith. It shouldn't have happened and i was out of line. I don't think I was called on it and I should have remained civil even if no one mentioned it until now. This remedy seems to be more punishing than resolving and the sourcing issues all could have been resolved by working towards correctly sourcing to the original publishers, which now seems to be the focus on the talk page. As I see it talk pages are to discuss improvements to an article and I have continuously advocated for letting the reliably sourced words of the subject speak for themself. I'm unaware that we ban editors from articles based on the subject's wishes, if so a warning months ago would have corrected my path. I'm sorry you won't budge on this but I feel my future involvement at Misplaced Pages hinges on others treating me with good faith and having trust in me as an editor. I see no reason why they should trust me on all other articles but _____. I will have to consider my options as what next steps are appropriate. Here again I ask that this topic ban be lifted as I feel all the concerns have been addressed and I'm more than willing follow policies including assuming good faith. If there are any outstanding issues that haven't been addressed i welcome the opportunity to resolve them. Banjiboi 00:00, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, that sounds reasonable enough to me. I'll leave it up to the admins how to take it from here. Durova 03:31, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

IMO, Benjiboi has been a little tenacious at times, and too quick to assume bad faith of the administration of this article, but his contributions to the article have been acceptable, for the most part, based on my recollections of monitoring the article as of the time the arbcom case started. While I would not entertain the idea of Eleemosynary ever being permitted to edit this article again, the above statement by Benjiboi demonstrates that he is willing to start AGF and so I think that this restriction can be lifted, especially as the article is protected at this stage, so he will have ample time to demonstrate good behaviour on the talk page before the protection is lifted. John Vandenberg (talk) 14:11, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Resolved notices

Xenovatis

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

Withdrawn by nominator and closed. Xenovatis has now been commendably positive in working to resolve this issue, so there is no further need for enforcement action. -- ChrisO (talk) 19:54, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

• Arbitration: Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Macedonia
• Xenovatis (talk · contribs)
• Macedonia naming dispute (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Persistent POV-pushing and deletion of references from Macedonia naming dispute. User has a personal disagreement with the author of a book published by a major US publishing house concerning the Greece-Macedonia dispute. After posting a vitriolic message about the author () he deleted the article's reference to that book, using a highly misleading edit summary (). I have notified him of this arbitration and WP:CENSOR, but he has deleted this notification from his talk page (). He has since repeatedly added highly POV comments concerning the author to the article in an obvious attempt at poisoning the well/discrediting the source (, ). The user's comments on my talk page () do not lead me to believe that he is likely to respect either the arbitration's requirements or Misplaced Pages's general policy standards. -- ChrisO (talk) 23:36, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I was not aware of the seriousness of the situation with Macedonian related issues until ChrisO warned me, and I'll try to be as constructive and as civil as possible in the future. I thought I was doing something beneficial for the article, because I have sources to support my argument (John Shea is in Newcastle,Only person name John Shea in Newcastle}. In any case, reverting twice (which would otherwise borderline normal editing), is understandably not acceptable in such contentious articles. I have also modified my comments to ChrisO's talkpage, to address the issue at hand, and not to personalize our quarrel.Please note that my last comment in ChrisO's talk page as well as in the relevant article's talk were both sometime before this arbenf was posted.Thanks. Xenovatis (talk) 00:00, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the update/feedback, this is a bit more constructive. I have to go to bed now but I'll pick this up tomorrow. In the meantime, I'd be grateful if this request for enforcement could be put on hold. -- ChrisO (talk) 00:36, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I mentioned Macedonia naming dispute to Xenovatis on his/her talk page at 12:45, 22 March 2008.

I would point you to this ARBCOM ruling Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Macedonia. While this article does not fall directly under that remit -- because it is outside the Area of conflict -- it highlights the problems of that passionate nationalist feelings cause.

Luckily I saw the reference to this page that was on Xenovatis's talk page by ChrisO's before Xenovatis removed it,, so it was lucky that I am able to comment here and put the record strait. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 14:00, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

User:Philip Baird Shearer and myself are involved in a long running debate here (also see here , here and here).WP:COI could be relevant to the above comment by PBS.Thanks.Xenovatis (talk) 14:15, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Which comment above? That I had already notified you of the ARBCOM ruling before you edited the "Macedonia naming dispute" article, or that it was lucky that I noticed the link to this page on your talk page before you deleted it? --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 14:36, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

In response to the above I was reffering to PBS's commenting here in the first place possibly falling under the remit of WP:COI since we are involved in a long-standing debate (,,,). Further PBS's comment on my talk page did not indicate there was a 1 revert rule on Macedonia articles (and I didn't follow the link to WP:ARBMAC) while the contested article's talk page did not idicate there was a 1 revert rule either (as it does in some other subjects). For further clarification please see my response to User:ChrisO above. Let me just reiterate however that I am now cognizant of WP:ARBMAC having read it thoroughly and I intend to be taking it very seriously in the future. Thanks.Xenovatis (talk) 14:44, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

User:DreamGuy

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

No action taken. --Akhilleus (talk) 20:33, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

DreamGuy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) has previously been placed on ArbCom behavioral restriction for civility etc. as per Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/DreamGuy 2

"DreamGuy is subject to a behavioral editing restriction. If he makes any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith, he may be blocked for the duration specified in the enforcement ruling below."

He was blocked for gaming and anon-sockpuppeting (to avoid ArbCom restrictions) on January 11, 2008 (discussion here), and his restrictions then amended/extended on February 18 to prevent further such behavior.

Despite these precautions, DreamGuy has again been disruptive by edit-warring (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9).

Further examples of incivility:

• "I say we utterly disregard those editors, like yourself, who knowingly pretend no specifics were given to try to justify their own bad behavior" (1)
• (edit summary)"removing bit from person who still can't coun t and is only posting to be harassing" (2)
• (edit summary)"removing false accusation from person who can't count, apparently" (3
• "And you should know by now that Colin is one of the worst people to ask these sorts of things... well, at least you would if you knew enough about the topic to know his lack of knowledge on the topic" (4)
• "He has real ownership problems on the article, which is especially bad because he admits to knowing nothing about the case and thinking that anyone who has studied it at all shouldn't be allowed to post there. I encourage you to go back and remove the paragraph you took out, and I will support the action. Maybe eventually the guy will get the hint" (5)
• "If you'd bothered to look at the talk page of the article in question, or my talk page where I already directly answered your question the last time you asked, you would already know." (6), which prompted the user's withdrawal from the article
• "removing harassing comments from longterm problem editor who uses threats and false accusations instead of good faith" 7
• "removing whole section...don't need someone knowingly putting up false license tags lecturing me" 8
• "Considering your long history of wikistalking...you know you shouldn't be getting involved here. But then you never seem to care."9
• "comment (#9, cited immediately prior to this) was perfectly civil, and these ever-expanding blocks for supposed incivility are just ridiculous... even the news media knows about it happening all the time" 10

Another example of a violation of his restrictions - and an excellent view into how he perceives his ArbCom restrictions and recent blocks - can be seen right at the top of his usertalk page, in bold letters, added February 27, 2008, where he says:

• "If you have a demonstrated history of personal harassment, your posts are not welcome here. (This includes certain "admins" who only got their position through sucking up.') 7

DreamGuy's recent behavior would be unacceptable from any Wikipedian, but is of special concern, since he is in clear violation of already-specified, clearly-noted restrictions designed to improve his behavior. To show that the Misplaced Pages community will no longer tolerate this kind of antagonistic and recalcitrant behavior, I am requesting that the sanctions be enforced. - Arcayne () 06:52, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

• If I can add my bit to the discussion, I come here to help write an encyclopedia. When I contribute to any article related to Jack the Ripper (and I have personally started nine of them), I dread the comeback that I know will follow from DreamGuy. On several occasions I've felt the hassle isn't worth it and have considered leaving Wiki. I try to avoid contributing to 'Ripper' related articles as I am unhappy about the negative attention I will inevitably receive from DG. I'm not doubting that he knows the subject incredibly well, but he uses that knowledge like a weapon. Jack1956 (talk) 18:41, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

• I get constant, monotonous, bad-mouthing from Dreamguy due to my temerity in editing the Jack the Ripper article. It's been a drip-drip-drip of calculated black propaganda going on for over a year now. But its not just me. All those who oppose his edits in that article get the same treatment. According to Dreamguy we are part of some great Conspiracy against him. I think he hopes that if he insults us enough we will go away and leave the article as his personal property. He has been through several wikipedia disciplinary hearings in the past 4 years but is always saved by the same admins who seemingly cannot see any wrong in him and even launch counter accusations and bitter personal attacks against those who have the audacity to bring the matter up. My guess is that they will intervene once again to save Dreamguy's bacon. Colin4C (talk) 19:12, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

• For that reason an independent admin is required who has not been prevously involved with DG. Jack1956 (talk) 20:24, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

• Note that has already been blocked once for violating this, looks like a second block may be in order. Since I participated in the case I can't do it. Wizardman 21:48, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

• Just to record the strange experience of editing with Dreamguy. He is routinely abusive to any editor who does not agree with him and will not abide by any concensus or make the smallest concession on anything. Every edit he makes seems to be sacrosanct, whether it is an addition or (more often) a deletion. To restore his edits he is prepared to engage in revert wars for weeks or even months and to blind revert several intervening edits. He has a dual pronged strategy of relentless reversion combined with continual abuse. Apart from the one or two admins who, suspiciously, always turn up here to defend him (they will be here soon) Dreamguy will abuse any admin who looks into his case, making them party to the dispute. Once he has goaded them into antagonism he then claims they are part of the vast Conspiracy against him. But as I said these disciplinary proceedings are always scuppered by the same one or two admins whom I presume he contacts by personal e-mail to save him from the most flagrant abuse of the wikipedia I have ever seen. Colin4C (talk) 16:16, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

• Though I am an admin, I too have history with DreamGuy and cannot use my tools involving him. But I agree that he seems to be in clear violation of his ArbCom sanctions regarding civility, and would support a block. Looking at the duration of previous blocks, I would say that a duration of one week seems appropriate at this time. --Elonka 17:47, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Frankly, the fact that a group on known problem editors have learned that they can whine and complain, make false accusations, totally ignore policies and try to get me blocked instead of making a good faith effort to resolve complaints shows that the problem here is not one editor's behavior... Arcayne and Colin4C have systematically blind reverted all of my edits to the Jack the Ripper article every time I make any -- for them to try to use my frustration (while bending over backwards to remain polite to them) as proof of "uncivil behavior" while they are being extremely uncivil and not demonstrating good faith in the slightest is just nonsense. They know that they come complain here and they can drudge up an admin from years back who was cyberstalking me (and got banned for it at the time) and similar other people violating policy (Jack1956 has repreatedly also blind reverted my edits, including a delete tag on a copyright-violating image he uploaded with knowingly false license on it) and pretend I am a bad guy. It's just wikilawyering and gaming the system. Editors who make dgood faith efforts to improve the encyclopedia and follow policies don't have issues with me, it's just people who know they don't have to and then can run off and say their feeling were hurt when I edited out something they wanted. DreamGuy (talk) 21:46, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

The accusations leveled against you are not false. The diffs listed above more than show that your behavior has violated the ArbCom sanctions. Furthermore, Arcayne and I both requested that you participate in the discussion at Jack the Ripper to reach a compromise. Your response to me was certainly not what I'd call polite. You did make an appearance at the article talk page, which was a start, but your most recent edits have gone undiscussed, which is a big problem. --clpo13_(talk) 21:53, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

• So far as DGs accusation against me goes, I told him repeatedly that he was wrong concerning UK copyright law, but he reverted my edits on two pages more than three times! He just kept cancelling my explanations and comments. See here and here Jack1956 (talk) 22:08, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I notice that image has now been deleted, which would appear to confirm that Dreamguy was correct to nominate it. Furthermore, according to Dreamguy's edit summaries, you uploaded an image under a different name which had previously been deleted, which suggests it is you rather than Dreamguy who is disregarding policy. Gatoclass (talk) 07:45, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

My impression is that Dreamguy has made a considerable effort to improve in regards to civility. The complainants here appear to be a group with whom Dreamguy has clashed many times in the past, and with whom there is already a long established acrimonious relationship, so perhaps expecting impeccable manners in this context is a little unrealistic.

Furthermore, I note that user Arcayne is restoring ludicrous "references" like this one, which demonstrates either remarkably poor judgement on his part about what constitutes a reliable source, or else a deliberate attempt to aggravate Dreamguy in hopes perhaps of getting him blocked or banned. If this is a typical example of the way Arcayne and others are responding to Dreamguy's edits, then it suggests to me that there is a campaign of harassment going on here. Gatoclass (talk) 07:17, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

• Actually, the Openshaw image has not been deleted (except by DG - wrongly - see the attached copyright tag), and it was previously deleted at my own request rather than get into a revert war with DG. See the article's talk page. I don't believe he even looked at my edit summaries - just kept blind reverting. I didn't even know DG existed until I added something to a JTR article- then I found out very quickly, and how! There is no campaign going on here - we just want to be able to edit in peace without fear of harassment. Jack1956 (talk) 07:54, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

• I don't know where you got that copyright tag from, but it isn't listed on the "All image copyright tags" page and it appears to contradict some other tags. So I would question its validity. But even if it is correct, you haven't provided a source for where you got the image, so there's no way of knowing where you got it from. Gatoclass (talk) 08:24, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Some complainants have clashed with Dreamguy in the past and some are new. Editors do not sign up with wikipedia hoping to join in a Conspiracy against Dreamguy. What happens is that they get sucked into the havoc he creates. Due to his efforts a lot leave the wikipedia. That is his aim. By relentless reversion and badmouthing he wants to drive out the editors who disagree with him out. If you take a look at his editing history you will see countless examples of editors who have left the wikipedia rather than be abused by him. Dreamguy was being disciplined by the wikipedia years before I arrived. His behaviour is the common factor, not some ludicrous Agatha Christie type Conspiracy against him. The wikipedia is losing a lot of good editors - often experts in their field - due to his behaviour in making sure that certain articles are 'no-go' areas for other editors. For instance with regard to the various articles connected with Jack the Ripper he acts like a Dog in the manger or slum landlord, not improving them himself, at the same time as forbidding other editors, by dint of continual blind reverts and abuse, from improving them. Thus a lot of these articles remain in a very shoddy state. As for Dreamguy's 'improved behavior' when did that happen? Is his accusation of editor Elonka wikistalking him: "Considering your long history of wikistalking me, Elonka, you know you shouldn't be getting involved here. But then you never seem to care." at 21:47, 22 March 2008 (yesterday) evidence that his behaviour has improved? Or are you saying that anything is permitted and is even 'understandable', no matter how outrageous the allegations, if you get into a dispute with another editor on the content of wikipedia articles? Colin4C (talk) 12:03, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I've had a chance to go through the article history page and the talk page and the short version is that it just strengthens my initial impression that this is a case of two or three editors trying to goad an editor they dislike into some intemperate comments so they can drag him before AE and get rid of him. Seems to me that Dreamguy is editing in good faith and certain editors are restoring junk and other material that clearly violates policy just to spite him. I really can't imagine, for example, why anyone with the most rudimentary grasp of policy would want to restore this Polly Wolly Doodle nonsense unless they were doing it to frustrate the user trying to remove it.

I note that on the talk page Dreamguy's attempts to reason have been ignored while his protagonists have assaulted him with a continuous barrage of taunts, patronizing comments and personal attacks. Perhaps Dreamguy may have been badly behaved in the past, I don't know, but I know who comes off worse in the exchanges on this talk page and it isn't Dreamguy. I think maybe it's time for some of these editors to get a grip on themselves, stop responding with such hostility and maybe give Dreamguy some credit for actually trying to improve the article. Gatoclass (talk) 14:43, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

With respect, you seem to be throwing around a fair lack of good faith for someone who isn't a member of ArbCom, or even an admin. Forgive me if I fail to give your (incorrect) assertions and evaluations the weight you wish them to have.

Your assertions that I allowed "ludicrous edits" in is incorrect, Gatoclass. In fact, I would suggest that you actually read the edit summaries for any of my edits, which essentially reiterated the necessity of DG discussing his edits, which he simply refused to do, instead insisting that 'it had been stated before' with nor hint as to when if ever it had appeared. The edit wasn't the problem; the failure to discuss the edit was. The insistence that discussion was somehow beneath him was unacceptable.

With respect, I am not sure you are reading the same discussion page (or ArbCom complaint, or multiple RfCs) that a half-dozen other, more experienced editors are reading. No one has "assaulted him with a continuous barrage of personal attacks, etc.". However, if you feel there are some, I would welcome you to take a moment to perhaps cite some of that "barrage". I am guessing that you aren't going to be able to provide any recent occurrences, because there simply isn't any. He has been treated fairly (I myself gave him multiple opportunities to grow beyond the incivility), but his behavior over the past two years has been unremittingly rude, unprofessional and confrontational.

I say unremittingly on purpose because this complaint is but one in a long list of complaints. Had his behavior improved over time (as you propose, which seems an odd sort of statement, as your account is less than a month old), the complaints would have tapered off or ended. That these complaints have not is not an indication of some grand cabal to have DreamGuy removed (much as he would like to think so, as it lifts the onus of responsibility for his actions from his shoulders, making it always someone else's fault) but instead that an ever-widening gyre of people are finding him to be a deleterious influence in Misplaced Pages. Many of the editors commenting in this ArbCom complaint have never commented before in a complaint against DreamGuy and were not invited to comment here. With the exception of El_C and Elonka (who advised me that this was the proper place to file the complaint), I have told no one else of this complaint. So that whole conspiracy argument is pretty much ludicrous on its face.

Being brand-spanking new to this problem user, you might be looking at DreamGuy and thinking, 'okay, so he's a little abrupt and maybe a bit uncivil; what's the big deal?' Being new to this problem, you probably haven't read the ArbCom restrictions that have been applied to DreamGuy (and extended, after he began sock-puppeting to avoid them). He is enjoined to act more civilly. He hasn't. His behavior in two years has not changed at all. He is aware that he can be blocked for it now, but as his base editorial view is confrontational, the stick (and not the carrot) is turning out to be the better tool by which to protect the Project. Too many people refuse to edit anywhere he is present, and at least one has withdrawn from the Project because of him. In itself, that is cause for extreme concern. - Arcayne () 15:39, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't know how you figured my account is "a month old" since I've been editing for two years and have 10,000 edits and over 200 articles to my name, as my user page clearly shows. But that's a side issue.

No one has "assaulted him with a continuous barrage of personal attacks, etc.". However, if you feel there are some, I would welcome you to take a moment to perhaps cite some of that "barrage".

You must have been reading a different talk page to me, because this is your very first response to him on the talk page in question (my comments in square brackets).

Sorry, I just got here. I was out blind-reverting lotsa articles and misinterpreting Wiki policy to a bunch of reporters while running over a busload of nuns and cute little puppies. Gosh, destroying Misplaced Pages single-handedly is hard work. :P

I have no problem with DG editing in this article, so long as he somehow learns the value and rules of seeking consensus with his edits. Deleting information with but a speculative edit summary does not constitute discussion. . Deleting precisely the same information after it has been restored less than two weeks later is another example of seeming contempt for his editors (or admins, if his User Talk page is to be considered a true viewing of his unhappiness). In short, it is unreasonable to expect editors to tolerate edits from someone who has all the social graces of someone raised by wolves. . Therefore, discussion is key. It doesn't matter if he is the DaVinci of the subject, his weight of contribution is going to always be weighed against his ability to work well with others. Its a community; if he wants to be a luminary, he needs to seek another venue. .

The Jack-the-Ripper.org site is not a spam site. DG's seeming disallowance of this particular site seems less than genuine, especially when one considers that he admins a JTR site, and we neither have no way to know if the site in question takes away visitors to his site nor do we know if he personally endorses hs own site. In fact, we do not know what site he admns for; that said, it would seem prudent for him to recuse himself on matters concerning external JTR links, unless he is willing and prepared to disclose what site he actually admins on. He doesn't have to do it here. As Kbthompson is in fact an admn, he needs only disclose it to him, and Kbt can evaluate the legitimacy of DG's contention with the contested site. .

I note also that you completely failed to address any of the concerns raised by Dreamguy in the previous post. In effect this entire post of yours is nothing more than a tirade against Dreamguy and an attack on his character. The fact that Dreamguy resisted the temptation to respond to you in kind showed a remarkable degree of forbearance in my view, particularly since you continue in this tone for the entire length of the page.

So really, I think maybe it's time you stopped blaming Dreamguy for all the problems, stepped back and took an objective look at your own behaviour. Then perhaps you will be able to acknowledge at the very least that the unhelpful attitude is by no means all on the one side. Gatoclass (talk) 16:15, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, here we are again: "Alice Through the Looking Glass" by Franz Kafka Junior. I give up. Colin4C (talk) 19:52, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

With respect, Gatoclass, even if a cursory examination of the issue reveals less-than-productive edits by the editors complaining about DreamGuy, that doesn't rule out a civility problem (especially since you appear to be looking solely at the patronizing and sarcastic comments made by editors other than DreamGuy). DreamGuy is a good editor, however, he has a major attitude problem, as many editors can tell you. If there is a long-standing feud between DreamGuy and a cabal of editors, that's because his behavior has not changed. At any rate, I think everyone here would appreciate it if a uninvolved member of the ArbCom would take a look at the matter. --clpo13_(talk) 21:21, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I disagree that his behaviour has not changed. It seems to me that for the most part he is bending over backwards to remain civil on the talk page, in the face of considerable provocation.

It's easy to take a few diffs out of context and try to make a case out of them, and unfortunately it's something that occurs a great deal on this project. But I don't think a user's behaviour can be judged in isolation from that of other involved parties, AE sanctions or not. I think it's unrealistic and unfair to expect exemplary behaviour from one party whilst the other gets off scot free from scrutiny. All parties are obligated to play by the rules, not just one, and users seeking sanction against one party should not be allowed to take advantage of AE sanctions imposed on that party when their own behaviour has failed to meet appropriate standards. Gatoclass (talk) 05:05, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I hate to sound pessimistic, but if he sounds more civil now, it's because of the ArbCom sanctions against him. At any rate, it is unrealistic to expect one uncivil party to go unpunished while another uncivil party suffers penalties, but the fact still remains that multiple editors have--both in the past and currently--judged DreamGuy's behavior to be less than civil. And even if DreamGuy is being goaded, he still has a duty to be civil. Being attacked does not give anyone the right to attack back. While I do think that DreamGuy is being more civil than he has in the past, I still think his behavior now leaves much to be desired. Take, for instance, his against-consensus reversions at Jack the Ripper. While he has participated in the discussion on that page, he mostly expresses the sentiment that discussion is unnecessary, since he has already given reasons why his edits are correct (the reasons he gives, however, are merely links to policies, but I cannot find any reasoning as to why and how those policies apply). Also take a look at the recent section started by myself at his talk page, where his first response is a case study in assumption of bad faith: "Can't really compromise with a group of people who violate policy and gang revert things for no reason."

In my defense, I may have gotten off on the wrong foot with DreamGuy, but I have tried to make amends. From his exchanges with me, I get the feeling DreamGuy thinks I'm still out to get him, though I can truly say I'm not. --clpo13_(talk) 06:27, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Gatoclass, just curious, as you seem to be arguing pretty vehemently in DreamGuy's defense, and accusing everyone else of "goading" him to rudeness, what is your opinion of DreamGuy's comment on my talkpage here. Could you please supply, with a diff, some recent edit of mine which you felt merited that type of reaction from him? Also, could you please explain why you feel that DreamGuy is justified to have that all bolded message at the top of his talkpage? Is it your opinion that that message lends to a positive atmosphere, in a spirit of civility and good faith? Because my feeling is that it is uncivil, antagonistic, confrontational, and a violation of his ArbCom sanctions all by itself. If DreamGuy genuinely wants to turn over a new leaf and show that he's able to get along with other editors, I'd see it as a positive step if he made that banner go away. --Elonka 07:20, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

A glance at DG's talk page indicates that you two have a long history of antagonism, "recent edits" or not. But that's a side issue.

There were basically only two points I wanted to make here. One is that I happen to think that DG's recent edits on the JTR page that are the current subject of dispute, are valid, and that there is little or no justification for reverting at least some of this material as some users have done. The second is that if DG's attitude on the talk page may at times have been less than exemplary, the same can be said for some of his accusers. DG has also given his reasons for removing said material and got very little constructive response.

These points taken together indicated to me a possible attempt to deliberately antagonize DG into making some intemperate comments which might then be used against him at AE. I have simply sought to draw attention to that possibility. I am not making any judgement about DG's behaviour in general, which I am not in a position to do, I am just trying to put this particular incident into context, so that DG's behaviour is not judged in isolation.

At this point then, I think I have said essentially what I wanted to say, and so I think perhaps it's time for me to step aside and let others have their say. Gatoclass (talk) 10:07, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I will have to agree with Gatoclass here. Although I agree that some of DreamGuy's comments may indeed be strong-worded, I doubt they are "incivil" enough to warrant a block. It is normal that an embattled user will sometimes resort to stronger words, but I think proponents here are exagerrating the level of incivility involved, apparently to try to placate him by any means possible.

The solution is not to threaten or try to humiliate a user through Arbitration enforcement to get him to soften his language. Most of the time, discussion and warnings should be enough. Most of all, treating a user fairly and generously should be the key. Regarding his message that some Admins " only got their position through sucking up", why not simply ask him politely and with some respect to remove the statement? We are a community of benevolent contributors, there is no need to behave like a Political Police trying to corner a targetted user basically for anything he might utter.

Regarding Elonka's claim of incivility, this is an obvious misrepresentation. What is so incivil about DreamGuy calling Elonka a "Wikistalker" when she is indeed well-known to relentlessly attack users she dislikes? (I have a long experience of such occurences, and she has been blocked in the past for such behaviour).

Regards to all. PHG (talk) 12:22, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Calling an editor a 'wikistalker' is abuse and you know it. Your personal attack on editor Elonka here is utterly despicable and (to quote Gatoclass) 'a clear violation of wikipedia policies'. Colin4C (talk) 12:34, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Could you kindly cool down, dear Colin4C? Saying that Elonka "relentlessly attacks users she dislikes" is just a fact, and I am a living proof of that. And she indeed has been blocked for harassment in the past. Best regards PHG (talk) 13:32, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

(unindent)First of all, from noticing the situation in an MfD, I've been following PHG and noticing Elonka's behavior with respect to him. Without any comment on the history (perhaps PHG was truly a monster, or whatever), Elonka has indeed been taking it upon herself to closely monitor PHG's behavior and, it certainly appears, to attack him and it, exaggerating the ArbComm decision regarding PHG as if it were a weapon rather than an attempt to cool things down. Both parties have been what I would define as uncivil, but Misplaced Pages often has a looser definition than I. Absolutely, using a word like "wikistalking" is inflammatory; however, it is criticism of a user's alleged behavior and not a personal attack as such. From what I've seen over the last months, the number one problem on Misplaced Pages is incivility and AGF failure. It's infectious. There is a reason for the AGF policy; failure to follow it can create enormous disruption. When one user is incivil to another, we respect an ability of the target to restrain himself or herself, and we respect it precisely because we know it is difficult. AGF failure breeds more AGF failure as, then, others jump in to defend what they see as an unfairly attacked editor. And positions harden. At some point it has to stop. I'm not at all familiar with the DreamGuy situation, but I see incivility aplenty on just about all sides, above. I'm a parent with five grown children and two small ones, and it is common for sibilings to fight. When I come upon a "situation," it can be very easy to pin the blame on one of them, as being the one who, at the moment of discovery, was reacting (or attacking). But the roots of these spats go deep into past slights and offenses, and as a parent, I have to start with "Stop!" And I can be, even, severe, with those who will not stop. And then, "Now, what's happening?" And then I hear both of them, and in that process, they *are* allowed to complain about the behavior of the other, and, to the extent I can manage it, they are also required to listen to the other. "Can you understand how she felt when you said that? Yes, you are not actually a "poopy-head," but, after all, she is younger than you and hasn't yet learned how to direct say what she needs to say." I might say to one of them. When they can understand each other, they can also, sometimes, sympathize, and they can then begin to find out how they can cooperate, toward mutual goals, even when they don't always like each other.

From what I've seen, taking a situation to AN/I or AN/AE can be somewhat like tossing gas on a smoldering fire. It is not a stage in dispute resolution. It is, rather, more like calling the police. AN is the 911 of Misplaced Pages, and should properly be reserved for true, immediate emergencies. It encourages snap judgments, just like the police must make snap judgments. But we train police how to do that, how to avoid prejudice and personal involvement. In a situation I saw recently, a user was warned by an adminstrator to cease an activity. The user was rude in response, while, at the same time, clearly indicating that he would not continue. Very rude. The administrator blocked him. Was that proper? ArbComm has ruled, pretty clearly, not. An insult like that is incivility, not personal attack (unless explicitly so). (The incivility was placing an image of an upraised finger, which is a gesture that means "You cannot control me," it is almost never a precursor to violence in the real world *unless* the "target" responds violently. I.e., responds to incivility, one offense, with a personal attack, a more serious offense.) With the warning, the administrator was doing his job. Part of that job is to interrupt people from doing what they want to do. This is guaranteed to raise some anger, often. When people get angry, even when they are normally civil, they may be the opposite, they express their anger. But how they express it is crucial. For the administrator I mentioned to become angry at the rude image was understandable and no offense at all. But for him to block is quite equivalent to a police officer arresting a person because the person "gives him the finger." Do you know what happens to a police officer who does that, if there was no reasonable fear of a violation of law? (And it is not against the law, in the U.S., to be rude to a police officer in that manner, if not associated with violence or actual threat.) The officer would be reprimanded and could lose his job, if those facts could be shown.

The problem with AN/I and AN/AE is that admins tend to try to figure out who is "wrong" and stop that person; ostensibly this is the most efficient solution, but only short-term. In standard dispute resolution, however, a trained arbiter would ask them *all* to stop, not just the "bad guy." And then would either refer them to a proper venue for the dispute or other means of resolution. (A police officer would restrain and/or arrest any party who did not stop, not just the original offender.) ArbComm frequently places users on some sort of short leash with regard to incivility. When others are not on the same leash, it can create an imbalanced situation, where a user who has been uncivil in the past is essentially expected to rise above it all and be more restrained than average, and such users can be blocked for offenses that would hardly raise eyebrows when another commits them. I see loads of incivility above. From experience, folks, how likely is it that the parties other than DreamGuy and PHG will receive even a warning, much less a block, for it? This is why, in fact, these disputes often end in community bans. An impossible situation is created, requiring someone who is not a saint to act like more like one than most of us can manage. Addressing this problem is not easy, and it is not simple. But it would start with, at least, recognizing the problem. And, folks, including especially DreamGuy and PHG, my advice is to act like saints. In fact, we are required to assume good faith and only abandon it upon conclusive proof of other than that, and this is policy, not mere guideline. If we do so, we are, in fact, acting like saints, even if we feel like killing the )#$&Y)%, and maybe the world, including this corner of it, will start to function a little more smoothly. Or a lot more smoothly.--Abd (talk) 14:01, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

There are those among us who would love to see a restriction end in a ban. These are the true enemies of our community, and we need to be very, very careful about these people, or, more accurately, about these tendencies among us. Take a look at Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets/Fredrick day and then at the edits of those IP addresses. Then notice how few objected to those edits, popping up in community discussions. A segment of users were angry with a particular user, and, hey, we really think the guy is a jerk, and so what if this IP editor pops in expressing what we feel? "Hehe, I like that!" was one user comment, or similar. Those IP edits were, essentially, lies intended to defame and inflame, and when we find ourselves agreeing with such, it is really time to hold up a mirror, we are in serious danger. This is destroying this community, one user at a time. --Abd (talk) 14:01, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I am continually puzzled about how these hearings go. When proof positive is given of breach of the wikipedia rules we are treated to bizarre Conspiracy theories and then suggestions that in certain circumstances breaking the rules is 'understandable': "you threw a brick through his window, but that is totally understandable considering how he broke the rules of the rotary club by speaking out of turn. I think you have shown incredible restraint in the circumstances. In your place I would have fire-bombed the place and knocked the inhabitants on the head with a mallet as they fled the building" . Colin4C (talk) 14:27, 24 March 2008 (UTC

I read the charges at the beginning of this notice, and what I saw did not stick in my mind as clear violations of policy (I did not review the diffs, however, I'm writing about the civility issues.) However, I just looked at them again, and I have changed my mind, it was actually pretty bad. For example, "I say we utterly disregard those editors, like yourself, who knowingly pretend no specifics were given to try to justify their own bad behavior"." "Knowingly pretend" is a charge of bad faith, essentially lying. Looking at this edit in context, it was gratuitous. And there were others like that. So why did I not see this at first? Well, I was distracted by some of the personal attack against DreamGuy which followed, for various reasons that is what I saw first; further, when I did look, there were some of the quotations that were marginal and which might even have been specifically acceptable if circumstances warranted them. I've seen so much like that which evaporated when the context is known that, apparently, I'm starting to discount it. The original notice here was not uncivil at all, it did not make gratuitous imputations of motive or unnecessary charges of deception, etc. It was straight-on, and, we must note, it takes a lot of work to put together a document like that. It does not have to be perfect. My comments about the etiology of these problems remain. There is uncivil commentary here about and against DreamGuy, behavior that, were the writers under civility restrictions, would also likely get them blocked. DreamGuy responds in kind, which almost certainly will result in a block, I'd predict, and he may certainly, then, feel that it is unfair. How come they can attack him like that and if he "simply defends himself," which he might see it as, "standing up for his rights," he is the one blocked? Which situation started first? As I wrote, for starters, it does not matter. It has to stop, and one uses the remedies at hand.--Abd (talk) 20:50, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Since there seems to be plenty of incivility on both sides of this dispute (and possibly actually even more on the side which is attacking DreamGuy here), this looks more like a pugilate then the asymetrical situation you are depicting Colin4C. Both sides should probably just hold the blows, take a deep breath, and start to try outdoing each other in politeness. Best regards to all. PHG (talk) 15:16, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

DreamGuy - arbitrary break

With respect, let's cut out the middlemen here and stop the blame shifting, please. It isn't about Elonka, or PHG, and I haven't the foggiest why Gatoclass decided to involve himself in the matter (and honestly, it doesn't really matter). It isn't as if the latter two are really being neutral in the matter, and them telling us to essentially cowboy up and ride out DG's behavior is not what the Project is about. It doesn't address the complaint, which is pretty c.f.b.

The initial complaint is about DreamGuy. Take an extended moment and look beyond all the subsequent responses and focus on the AE complaint. The problem - as I see it - is that users like PHG and Gatoclass are looking at DreamGuy as if he were some defenseless little kitten being ganged up upon by us loose cannon editors; this is simply not the case.

Were this complaint submitted on PHG or Gatoclass, it would likely only result in a warning or a very short block, and for one reason alone - neither one of these two users is under behavioral restriction to be more civil. DreamGuy is on something ery much like parole: when a felon is released from prison early, he has to follow a certain number of rules that those of us who are not felons do not have to follow. If they fail to follow them, the recourse determined for them is substantially more severe than it is for the person who isn't a felon. This is not to say that DreamGuy is a felon - far from it. The example is given to illustrate that DreamGuy is required by unanimous ArbCom decision to be more polite, and if he fails to do so, there are significant penalties for even minor infractions. As the complainant, I did not set the rules that ArbCom did, any more than I can "goad" DreamGuy into incivility, especially when he knows the penalty for displaying his own pattern of incivility. Indeed, had he truly felt that others had been uncivil, he was eminently free to submit a complaint in AN/I against any editor he felt was being uncivil to him. Yet, he did not do so. The truth is, others weren't being uncivil to him, and DreamGuy chose to lash out at anyone who opposed his edit-warring.

These are the facts:

• DreamGuy is under behavioral restriction. He is required to be more civil or be blocked. To whit:

"If he makes 'any' edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith, he may be blocked for the duration specified in the enforcement ruling below"

• As the DIFFs above from the initial complaint clearly indicate, this was a restriction he chose not to heed.
• As per his ArbCom restrictions, any incivility on his part is to be met with blocks. Note that there is no wiggle room for "somewhat" uncivil remarks, or "kinda" personal attacks, or "somewhat" assumptions of bad faith. ANY violations are subject to block. Please feel free to point out the utter and complete absence of any incivility whatsoever. Failing that, a block is required.
• As Elonka pointed out, the block length should be in excess of three days (the period of his last block for this identical infraction).

DreamGuy willfully violated his restrictions for the third time, and the DIFFs indicate that clearly. While it is commendable to wish the best for DreamGuy intentions, AGF does not excuse bad behavior. - Arcayne () 18:54, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

If it isn't too much trouble, would it be too much trouble for ArbCom members to weigh in, instead of editors who are trying to come across as arbiters? With respect for those coming to share their unpleasant experiences with DreamGuy (as well as those jumping to defend his actions without full awareness of his past), none of the folk weighing thus far have any ArbCom ability to resolve this matter. This complaint contains three parts: the initial complaint, the response from the subject of the complaint, and the ruling by ArbCom. - Arcayne () 19:01, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I can tell you this much - you shouldn't expect to see Arbcomm members here. What you should be asking for is uninvolved admins, who are the volunteers that actually tackle the task of enforcing ArbComm restrictions when appropriate. GRBerry 19:48, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Closure

I'm closing this with no action. I largely agree with User:Gatoclass' evaluation of the matter--some users are attempting to provoke DreamGuy into bad behavior so that he can be removed from the scene. A particularly telling diff is , as is . The ArbCom decision is not a magical license to poke DreamGuy with a stick until he's impolite, then try to get him blocked; that's gaming the system, and I have no sympathy for it.

As for the specific diffs listed in the original complaint, I don't find that they contravene our highly variable and inconsistently applied standards for civility. I would note, though, that civility is a policy that is supposed to apply to all editors, not just those with ArbCom decisions against them, and that if DreamGuy's edits listed above are uncivil, it would not be that difficult to go to Talk:Jack the Ripper and find edits by other editors that are equally so. If DreamGuy is to be blocked for his edits, I would have no trouble saying that some other editors in this situation ought to be as well. I strongly recommend that the editors involved in the dispute at Jack the Ripper find a way to work together, or seek mediation; trying to get DG blocked is not a constructive way of addressing the problems here.

In the spirit of full disclosure, I'll note that I've interacted with DG before at Tiamat, but I don't consider myself even remotely involved in this dispute. --Akhilleus (talk) 20:33, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Giano II

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

While there were some concerns expressed, there is clear consensus that Giano breached his civility requirement and the block is correct and should stand. — Coren  01:38, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Giano II (talk · contribs · logs · block log) is under a civility ruling that reads:

Giano II is subject to an editing restriction for one year. Should Giano make any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith, Giano may be blocked for the duration specified in the enforcement ruling below." (Remedy 2.2)

and a second remedy:

"All parties in this case are strongly cautioned to pursue disputes in a civil manner..." (Remedy 13)

and rather specifically a third remedy about exactly this topic:

"All the involved editors ... are ... instructed to use civil discussion to resolve all issues with respect to the 'admin' IRC channel." (Remedy 15)

Giano has been uncivil to FloNight before on March 6, in exactly the same context, and on the same page, since the above decision. At that time it was hoped the old behavior would end. It evidently has not. I take that as an aggravating factor since it seems to signify that Giano felt able to be uncivil, be ignored, which in turn has encouraged the belief that this incivility (which is more direct) will also be ignored. Several users presented evidence to this effect during the case.

Giano was also uncivil here on March 18.

At 19:05 March 25, Giano II engaged FloNight on her talk page about the admin IRC channel. In the course of that, Giano II made the following two posts, which I judge uncivil yet again: this and this.

The enforcement provision for the case reads:

"Should any user subject to an editing restriction in this case violate that restriction, that user may be briefly blocked, up to a week in the event of repeated violations." (Enforcement 1)

I have therefore blocked Giano II for 31 hours. The IRC case conclusion was overwhelmingly and repeatedly "be civil", and events since then show that Giano is back to his old habit of uncivil (and possibly in the eyes of some, snarky or bad faith) comments, and on more than one occasion.

FT2  01:51, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Disclosure: I posted in the capacity of providing outside information and links which FloNight was likely unable to do. She had already told Giano that she was unfamiliar with the details , and Giano had expressed scorn or some similar view in reply . As a result when Giano a second time addressed similar questions to her, and FloNight's comment that he should instead ask me for information was rebuffed, I stepped in to make two posts, both outside information on where Giano might find the answers to his questions, and other relevant information. One corrected Giano's misperception of FloNight, which I judged was leading him to accuse her of evasiveness on information she did not in fact have and provided links and resources to work with, and the other when Giano persisted in pressing FloNight for this despite the above, expanded on it. WP:ADMIN states that:

"An administrator who has interacted with a user or article in an administrative role (ie in order to address a dispute, ... administrative assistance, outside advice/opinion, ... and the like) ... is usually not considered prevented from acting on the article, user, or dispute. This is because one of the roles of administrators is precisely to deal with such matters and if necessary, continue dealing with them."

I am posting this at AE, in anticipation of discussion which is best held in the AE venue for a matter related to Arbitration Enforcement.

I support the block. I have reviewed Giano's interactions over the last month, and though his insight is often good, he does not appear to be respecting the ArbCom requirement that he be civil in how he presents his thoughts. Based on the diffs provided by FT2, as well as the diffs provided in the last AE request (WP:AE#Giano II 2, closed without action by Thatcher just a couple days ago), a block is appropriate to enforce sanctions. Hopefully upon his return, Giano will work harder to control his temper, and will set a better example of civility in his interactions with other Wikipedians. --Elonka 02:34, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I wish to note that I filed a request for arbitration enforcement with respect to Giano II on 23 March 2008 which referenced at least one of the same diffs as the report above. After I filed this report, Giano II made the following edits on my talk page . Furthermore, Doc glasgow, currently an administrator, implied that my account would be blocked if I filed any future reports with respect to Giano II . John254 02:37, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid that my leniency of 2 days ago has only encouraged Giano to be even ruder. In the earlier complaint, he was poked on his own talk page by Damifb (talk · contribs) (since indef blocked for trolling) and responded by slagging off on Arbcom in general terms. Here, he (and to a lesser extent Irpen) have decided to make FloNight the focus of their complaints about IRC governance, even though Flo has made it clear on multiple occasions that she has not been involved in the relevant discussions and has repeatedly referred Giano to others more knowledgeable. Three people (including me) provided him with a link to the information he requested and he continued to pick on Flo. His comments are not directed at Arbcom in general and not restricted to his own talk page, but are directed at a specific user, and the final comments exceed even the generous bounds Giano has been allowed. Especially given the previous ball-chewing comment also directed against Flo, I support the block, and I can't help but wonder why Giano, who is so chivalrous toward female editors he likes, would continue to act in this manner toward the only female member of Arbcom. Thatcher 02:43, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

FT2 has the right to make his block but I doubt it is helpful. Giano has just left his grouching mode and started to write articles. Maybe we really should not distract him. Especially since he promised to greatly rewrite the Winter Palace article (Saint Petersburg is my home city). Oh well, it seems like the subordination is taking precedence over the content creation nowadays. Alex Bakharev (talk) 04:11, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

(Replied on the user's talk page - philosophy of Misplaced Pages is useful to discuss but not central to AE hence that's a better location.) FT2  04:42, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

FT2, I am concerned that you have several conflicts of interest in making this block yourself. Not only were you directly involved in the discussion with Giano, but you sit on the committee responsible for reviewing blocks under this remedy. You have also been very involved in the reported IRC cleanup and are a chanop there. An administrator with three apparent conflicts of interest is normally encouraged to consult with peers, and I think you should have divorced yourself from action in this situation. We do have over a thousand administrators on this project, after all, and Giano should not be the only one expected to serve as a good example.

Giano had every reason to ask FloNight for this information: she had posted right in the IRC proposed decision talk page about her plans to address the IRC issue and none of the sitting arbitrators contradicted her about this plan. Indeed, the Arbitration Committee had stated, as a remedy to this very case, that it would address the issues. The Arbitration Committee, however, has given no indication that it has addressed the questions surrounding IRC. I note that you have done a lot of work involving IRC recently, but it is unclear if that is because you are an IRC chanop or if it is because you are a member of the Arbitration Committee. That it was being done exclusively within IRC, and without discussion or consultation of the broader community of concerned Misplaced Pages editors (including Giano, and several who volunteered to participate) suggests the former.

Our blocking policy states that it is recommended to post controversial or potentially controversial blocks to the Administrator's Noticeboard. I believe it would be appropriate to post a notice with a link to this block review. Please note that this is not an apologia for Giano; he's responsible for his own behaviour. I am simply pointing out that I expected you, FT2, to have acted in the same way we would expect any other involved party to act, and to post your request for sanction here on the AE board for disinterested and uninvolved users to assess the situation and, if indicated, to have made the block. Risker (talk) 04:41, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I considered these carefully. The conclusion was in fact none formed a conflict of interest. I spoke with Giano, but I had no "argument" with him or "debate". I gave him information which the person he was asking, had asked me to give, since she did not have it and knew I did. That was the limit of that interaction. That's far from a COI. Your second concern: As an arbitrator, I take part in decisions on many cases. A bit like an administrator does. An uninvolved administrator who takes a view that a user has acted wrongly, and says so, or even warns the user that they will be blocked if they do it again, is never, ever considered to acquire a conflict of interest by doing so. That would defeat commonsense. My role as an arbitrator was to hear a case, and decide upon evidence what measures and warnings might be needed to protect the project. Its a glorified admin role, and in principle identical to any warning any admin might give upon reviewing conduct of party/ies at someone elses request. Your third point is, being involved in formulating an internal channel code on IRC does not put me in conflict with someone critical of that code. We have never discussed that code, nor argued it, nor interacted in relation to it. many admins collaborated to work on that code, which Giano has not seen fit to raise as a personal issue with me, or I with him -- it simply has not come up. My work on IRC was exactly the same reason as any other work I do -- it needs doing, it crossed my desk, I felt I could beneficially do it, so I did it. Giano has never argued with me on that.

What Giano has done is been uncivil to FloNight and others in breach of an arbitration ruling, in a fairly unambiguous manner hard. He has the option to speak to anyone, to criticize, to do all these things. He does not have the right to do so uncivilly or in a bad faith, "snarky", or "personal attack" manner. This by any standard is not controversial, or potentially controversial, except in one way only -- the blocked user is one who many admins have stated is in practical terms hard to block and where it seems the user cannot (or will not) be blocked and sit out his term if he persists in incivility. That is the only controversial aspect of the matter - that he has not had this happen before, when others would have. This block, for these edits, are not controversial in the context, as others have opined above.

What you want to look for as an example on COI is my actions with PHG, and the care I take in to disclose if anything needs disclosure. There, I warned him, and was on the arbcom case related to him. I likewise issued his first block (48 hrs) ..... to which I note no objection whatsoever, but I then left the second one for others to consider... and that was deliberate, so that it would be clear if it was just one person's view, or a communal perception. If the block were fair, and the user problematic, others would have blocked, it would not necessarily need "the same person to". And indeed, others did, they discussed, and I did not involve myself in that, to avoid risk of bias or over-involvement. Now that a second block has confirmed the views on the user, I would not feel my future involvement would risk seeming to be "one person only", although I may choose to let others handle him from here on.

COI is an important issue, and if you look at arb cases (Mantanmoreland, IRC) I have considered carefully, and in those two cases disclosed scrupulously. I did so in this case too - witness the inclusion of the relevant policy issue - and in fact was not in dispute with Giano. I had acted in an administrative capacity in deciding he needed to be civil in future, in a case brought by others at communal request. FT2  05:01, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

• Those comments are obviously beyond the pale. Giano is clearly breaking the remedy, as he has many times before. Blocking is not controversial, and FT2 has taken care even in his initial report to be clear and have thought it through. John Vandenberg (talk) 05:50, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
  • (ec) Risker, I understand what you're saying about a conflict of interest, but I have no trouble with a sitting arbitrator enforcing an agreed ArbCom remedy. Because of the high-profile cases that Giano has been involved with, it does become harder and harder to find a completely uninvolved admin. I feel that I'm fairly uninvolved with Giano myself, though if someone went digging, I'm sure that they could find a few pages where both Giano and I posted in the same discussion. I still support FT2's block. Arbitrators are a special class of editors on Misplaced Pages. They've gone through an extensive review and voting process, and are the most trusted members of our community. Further, no one here seems to be saying it's a bad block. Everyone agrees that Giano was uncivil, everyone agrees that he was under sanctions, everyone is aware that Giano just ignores them. If ArbCom remedies are not consistently enforced, they have no power. If someone as high profile as Giano ignores his sanctions, it undermines the process, and weakens everyone else's sanctions. And if anything, ArbCom is often criticized for being powerless, not for being too authoritarian. I say it's about time that we gave civility sanctions some teeth. --Elonka 06:02, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

FT2, the most important aspect of conflict of interest is that the person with the conflict of interest rarely perceives that he or she has one. You are a member of the committee appointed to be the last step in dispute resolution. Your actions, whether as an administrator or an arbitrator, reflect on the Arbitration Committee — a committee that already needs to rehabilitate its reputation with the community, after the leaked emails and the fallout from the Mantanmoreland case. Whether you perceive yourself to be just an admin who sits on Arbcom, the community — and the Foundation — sees things differently. Indeed, it seems that #en-admins sees things differently too, as Arbcom members regularly active in the channel have higher access levels than the overwhelming majority of IRC members. I am not trying to justify Giano's behaviour; he is responsible for his own actions. I simply cannot accept your justification of your actions. Elonka points out that Giano is "high profile" and thus must be made an example. If you do not perceive yourself as having a responsibility to act as an example to the community, to follow both the spirit and the word of our policies, then perhaps there are bigger concerns than just this block.

I really do question how you can feel that you were not in dispute with Giano. Giano asked FloNight a question, and she asked you for assistance in responding. Instead of answering the question being asked (how many non-admins have access to #admins IRC channel), you kept providing him with answers to questions he didn't ask. It's clear now that you did not (and probably still don't) know the answer to his question; it's unclear to me why you didn't just say so. Most people find that kind of non-response response to be quite provocative; this provocation, followed by your use of the power imbalance between you and Giano to sanction him for a situation that you had opportunity to prevent is what is most troubling. A dispute does not require raised voices on both sides of the table to be a dispute.

As I indicate, I am not defending Giano's behaviour, and defer to disinterested members of the community to come to their own conclusion. My questions are all about yours, FT2. I am really disappointed that you do not perceive the degree to which you had involvement in this situation. In response to Elonka, my concern is with an admin and sitting arbitrator who is involved in the situation that led to a block making the block; if it had been an uninvolved arbitrator - Sam Blacketer for example - this discussion would not be taking place. Risker (talk) 06:36, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Risker, this AE section is about Giano's actions, and several admins have all nodded approval at the block. Any one of us would have done it once enough second opinions had landed here, but FT2 has done it, presumably to ensure that nobody can doubt that this is a block to enforce an arbcom remedy. If you want to discuss whether FT2 should have been the one to do it, please take that discussion to ANI or some other noticeboard. John Vandenberg (talk) 06:49, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Let me expand on that a little to be sure that there is no misunderstanding. The issue at this noticeboard is whether Giano has "make any edits which are judged by an administrator to be uncivil". Nobody has suggested otherwise. As a result, if the block by FT2 is reversed, there are other admins that will restore the block, myself included. John Vandenberg (talk) 07:09, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that it's at all unanimous among admins that this was an appropriate block. I question whether the comments were all that incivil, (how long is it appropriate to wait for answers before your questioning gets more pointed? The original talk of councils/committees/whatevers to discuss IRC was months ago but I see little actually happening... I further question whether it was appropriate for FT2 to give it out, and I question why 31 hours was used rather than a more conventional time. (We typically use 31 hours for school children so that it's not till the end of the next school day that the block expires. Giano is not exactly a school child, so I'm sure it was an inadvertant slight rather than a deliberate one). I think Giano is being held to rather a higher standard than we hold others, or at least that's the impression given. ++Lar: t/c 12:26, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Some of these have been answered elsewhere. 1/ Block length is here. 2a/ There is no rule how long to wait until ones questions get pointed, but it is likely that 12 minutes to a first serious stab at answering them should not be hard to endure. 2b/ Whilst there may be a limit where one gets "pointed", what time limit would one suggest for deciding to gratuitously attack the person who first tried completely to help, who lacked information, and who had therefore promptly referred you on, and you are now in dialog with the people referred to. (For me, there is a huge difference between a "pointed" question and an out-and-out uncivil one.) And 3/ Giano is on this occasion being held to the same standard I would hold anyone, with this ruling, and this circumstance and conduct issue record. No more, no less, and when this block is done it's over. FT2  12:57, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I would like to put on the record that I have just received a short and undelightful email from Giano. The prior post on his talk page to the precise opposite effect compared to his emailed beliefs, seems to be ignored. FT2  09:46, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Risker -- I understand the concern you have. But your comment "the community sees things differently" seems not bourne out. Several have commented, but of those only one (yourself) sees this as a problematic decision. Your statement that it was, in fact brought comments from two commentators that they did not agree.

Similarly, your comment that Instead of answering the question being asked ... you kept providing him with answers to questions he didn't ask. It's clear now that you did not ... know the answer to his question; it's unclear to me why you didn't just say so" is also extremely inaccurate and misrepresentative. I made just two comments - it is hard to describe just two notes as "kept providing". Looking back, the first of them (asked to help by FloNight) stated exactly where information he had asked for could be found and how to get an up to date list that he could verifiably check. It also completely and without reserve answered his other main assumption about her "role as an arb". Those were visibly the exact two issues relevant to their discussion. The second when that wasn't felt helpful started by explicitly letting him know that "FloNight doesn't know a specific count, nor do I". It then answered the rest of his question with precision.

That's as far from "kept providing him with answers to questions he didnt ask" or "why didn't you say so" as it gets.

Lastly, it's not at all clear how my comments dated 25 March created Giano's cited incivilities prior to then. Further, the sequence of events of 25 March itself were that 1/ FloNight specifically told him she didn't know and to ask me. 2/ Giano ignored her words. 3/ I visited and answered as best I knew where such information could quickest be found. 4/ Giano asked me again, but snuck in an incivility to FloNight too. 5/ I clarified directly and immediately that no actual answer was known and this was how to work it out. 6/ Two other admins commented. 7/ Giano posted a second incivility/attack on FloNight in his response to the three of us, even though at that time he knew well he was talking to others and FloNight knew nothing and had bowed out of the dialog early on. That is just not a sequence that lends itself to the comments you make, that somehow he was "made" to act badly.

Giano II was in fact being attended to. He had been given full answers at that point to the best of everyone's ability. Despite this, he decided to pause to gratuitously attack an editor he knew had tried to help him, for (allegedly) having "clearly lost all mental and muscular capacity for communication". FloNight had already very calmly given her best attempt to help him (despite his prior incivility to her), she had told him she did not have answers, and had passed his questions to no less than three others who had been interacting and had themselves provided what any usual person would consider good-faith fair answers which fully aimed to help. And yet he paused in the middle of talking to them, to return to and attack her offensively again. This was not even slightly borderline incivility.

FT2  09:46, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

FT2 feels that "full answers had been given" but uses the passive to cover the fact that FT2 was the one whose answer did not serve. Instead of realizing that he had evaded what Giano was asking, and specifically that it was not his to answer, he concluded that the continued asking meant "incivility." That's personal pique. I have no doubt that FT2 was annoyed, but that is not the same thing as incivility. We do not function that way. While we say, over and over again, that Misplaced Pages is not censored, and we allow any amount of vileness in images and articles, but when Giano asks a user why she thought something was a great idea and proposed it as a reason for concluding a case one day and then (using passive voice again) abandons that idea the next, and when she does not answer but others (perhaps the others meant by "there was opposition" to the ideas) do, that's something we must not allow? That hideously myopic and obviously personalized.

Personalizing is the heart of the breaking of civil discourse, and FT2 being the block agent for Giano not being happy with his own comments is to personalize it. The question Giano asked needed and needs an answer: If the case that resulting in his "civility patrol" restrictions could conclude with the idea that 1: there had been abuses on admins.irc, 2: there had been abuses in the page describing it in such laudatory terms, 3: Giano was mean in his talk, then the whole project needs to why #1 is allowed without remedy. FloNight apparently felt so, too, because she and others reasoned that there would be reform, and she had some ideas. Giano asked her (not you) why she abandoned this idea. Her answer "was opposed" begs the further question of "by whom, and why?" On that she has remained silent and, mysteriously, people are willing to block in order to not answer.

This block is illegitimate, as it is personal involvement and there has been no demonstration of what Giano said that was "incivil" and how it was incivil. Can anyone explain why a particular comment destroys the well regulated speech community of Misplaced Pages? Can anyone explain why something Giano said is likely to reduce editing? Can anyone explain why it will result in damage to the project equivalent to the loss of edits to Winter Palace and the increasing rancor of perhaps three hundred editors? Geogre (talk) 10:53, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

What: . How are those appropriate?

Why: they are clearly incivil, and they cause an immediate breakdown in communication patterns here on Misplaced Pages because they are barbs that destroy our ability to work together peacefully. Answers to questions can take time; respect for the volunteer nature of the community means that answers should be waited upon rather than demanded and hell brought to bear on anyone who cant provide them immediately. I am surprised this needs to be explained to serious member of our community. John Vandenberg (talk) 11:38, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

The reviews above should be clear. Maybe a point by point (Q&A) analysis will help:

1. Giano asks how many non-admins have access to en-admins and what if any changes have taken place in the channel.
2. FloNight says she will relay the question to me, since I was actively involved. She tells Giano, "as noted above.. FT2 is best person to contact for information about the #admins channel".
3. Ginao ignores this, asks FloNight "What is so difficult", states she "goes there" and "is an Arb", tells her "don't be evasive" (bad faith), and urges her to be keen to resolve the irc-related matters.
4. I get and respond to FloNights message on my talk page.

   • I clarify a major misunderstanding Giano seems to have (that FloNight going there + FloNight being an arb means she is there in a formal arb role or is involved in channel management).
   • I tell Giano the exact wiki-page to look for, for a full list of all users, plus a method to create an updated list if he so wishes. I state that "most" of these can be tied back to wiki accounts allowing non-admin access to be determined.
   • I note that there is no guarantee FloNight is interested in doing the work involved, and she is not really a "manager" per se.
   • Finally for Giano's last point, I direct him to the page listing all changes, or from which changes are linked.

5. Giano ignores the information given (it seems) and asks me how many non-admins there are, being gratuitously and completely unnecessarily uncivil to FloNight in passing, even though she has said to speak to me, Giano is responding to me, and I have visited quickly and drafted and posted the above at 19:48 - within 12 minutes of Giano's post (19:36) and within 4 mins of getting FloNight's request (19:44).

   • Returning for no good reason to FloNight though (!), he asks her instead (!!) whether any non-adnins are removed or any changes made. Thus completely ignoring the above where 1/ FloNight said she felt I could better help, 2/ I told Giano FloNight was not a "manager", and 3/ I posted Giano a complete link to all changes for him to read it, already.

6. None the less I reply. I say it more plainly:

   • FloNight doesn't have a specific count, nor do I; and old users were "grandfathered" in;
   • The userlist is linked to above (said again) if he wants to identify information about non-admin access.
   • Although I have already linked to the changes I also here summarize them for him as well, and finally
   • Clarify the status of these changes.

7. Edit conflict - Thatcher tells Giano the same, about where to look up non-admin access.
8. Giano asks whether any arbcom members have implemented any changes "advocated as a sop at the end of the IRC case". When I later re-read this edit, I am completely unclear what he is asking. I have described the channel changes that have taken place, I am unaware what changes to the channel he feels were "advocated", sop or otherwise, and he himself has not explained.
9. Ryan Postlethwaite tries to answer as best he can, I think. He restates that channel guidelines now exist, and links to them again (I have alreadty done so and indirectly so has Thatcher). He states particularly that action is taken with regard to a specific concern and cites his own view on its positive effects.
11. despite all the above, despite the fact he has been discussing with myself and latterly Ryan, despite FloNights repeated non-involvement... despite half a dozen reiterations of how to find non-admin names and count and a clear definitive statement that Flo doesn't know offhand and nor do I, Giano posts this:

    "Seeing as Flo has clearly lost all mental and muscular capacity for communication will one of you please answer - how many ex or non-admins remain in the channel"

    It is a second gratuitous incivility/attack on FloNight. Again, he knows repeatedly she is not aware or involved and is letting others handle it, as he has repeatedly been told by many people, as well as being told how to find out more.

12. ]

I have tried to help Giano and show him he can both be honest about his views, without being uncivil. The offer is still there, unchanged. FT2  11:55, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

May I make a suggestion? For whatever reason, Giano listen to some people more than others. If something like this happens again, can I suggest, in all seriousness, that someone ask one of those people to have a quiet word with Giano, warn him if needed, or pour oil on troubled waters and make communication easier? That way we might actually make some progress without the hugely lengthy thread above. I know, Giano could handle himself better in the first place, but seriously, look past how he says things and actually reply to him and engage with him, and the mountain will become a molehill. There is no need to take offence at every instance of perceived incivility. Carcharoth (talk) 13:32, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Giano is well aware of the restrictions even though he does not accept them. While the idea is interesting in the abstract, I know of no other arbitration remedy where enforcement is preceded by an extra warning from a someone the offender will listen to. Armenia-Azeri, Israel-Palestine, Macedonia, Irish Troubles--in none of these cases has it been suggested that violators should receive extra warnings or counseling to back down once an enforcement request is made. In addition this would amount to giving Giano a permanent get out of jail free card, assuming he actually backed down after each reported alleged violation. Arbitration is the last step in the dispute resolution process, and enforcement of arbitration rulings is not meant to require debate, discussion, or further attempts at dispute resolution; that's why remedies say "any uninvolved admin" rather than "consensus on the noticeboard" or some such. And finally Giano has not been taken to task for "every instance of perceived incivility." See the prior report below on this very page, and my response above. In the prior case Giano was baited by a troll and he responded on his own talk page. I don't believe John254 had a legitimate reason to complain here, and I closed the report with no action. In this case Giano was repeatedly uncivil to FloNight even though he had been given the answer he was supposedly seeking by three other editors, and I still find it very strange that Giano has now repeatedly made the only female Arbitrator the target of his abuse. Thatcher 13:55, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Thatcher, do you honestly think that saying something speculative like "I still find it very strange that Giano has now repeatedly made the only female Arbitrator the target of his abuse" is really going to help? I don't often ask people to retract things, but that was probably best left unsaid. I could say a lot more, but I think less is more here. Carcharoth (talk) 14:09, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

It's good advice, and if it works then I would be glad. But the reality is, many people have tried, and the issue remains unabated. This was not the first time, nor "every instance" -- instances on March 6 and March 18 were ignored, and the net result is as Thatcher noted, is to encourage more. This of course is on top of numerous past instances over at least two years in which chances were given, unblocking for goodwill, no action to avoid upset, discussion, last chances, last-last chances, and even "last-last-last" chances (to the disgust of some). And no action was taken, people tried, and nothing happened.

The present remedies are being managed sensibly. Minor instances were ignored, not leaped upon, until it became obvious the issue was ongoing (predictably yet sadly), at which point that is not visibly proving a viable approach. A whole slew of offensive comments in January/February were overlooked. Many chances have been given. Whatever ability Giano has to listen to his confidantes, it may be that he now has to do so with rather more alacrity than has been his norm. The quid pro quo of waiver is evidence of change, and to date the deal has been that the community takes no action... and Giano makes no real change. If he does indeed listen to friends in this, and someone can explain my and others' numerous comments that he can have his views (however divergent), just express them appropriately, then that would be good, because he is a decent guy in many ways, and a good editor. FT2  13:46, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Oh, sure. But I'm trying to de-escalate things, and you and Thatcher are responding defensively and justifying your actions. I'm not asking either of you to justify your actions, just to consider other options. A reasonable request doesn't have to have two long responses like this. It should be easy to justify things with a short response. Having to say a lot sometimes shows that maybe things weren't quite so clear. But I will repeat, the aim should be to get everyone talking again and interacting civilly. If that needs other people to get involved, than call them in. Carcharoth (talk) 14:09, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough, it wasn't intended to come across that way, and my apologies. For reference, my other options are in numerous posts (want links?)... and (I think?) also emails, where I've tried to explain, help, guide and inform. I hope that Giano will look at those some day and consider them, for I will always be glad to see him seek genuinely to work with others to a decent level, if it can be done by him. I've tried on multiple occasions -- the patience and re-explanation even here is a case in point. Because I am not naive I have to accept there is a chance it will not happen, and for that reason it cannot be the only option. But I am also patient and broadly hopeful/optimistic, so it remains one option. But it is a preferable one, and taking it is open to him all the time. I hope he will choose to, tentatively, but genuinely, do so, to a sufficient level. FT2  14:25, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Those comparisons were completely inappropriate. SashaNein (talk) 15:39, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

• FT2's actions here are clearly outside the community norms. The community norms that are violated include 1) after arbitration, enforcement is left to administrators that are not arbitrators, 2) enforcement of arbitration decisions is left to uninvolved administrators, and 3) all blocks whether or not for arbitration enforcement are to be issued only by uninvolved administrators. Reviewing the history, FT2 was active in and participated in the case as an arbitrator. He also has been heavily involved in the processing of access requests for the channel, was involved in the stillborn RFC over the channel, and is a heavy user of the channel. As a clearly involved administrator, his block is a violation of the blocking policy. Apparently there are only around 500 users of the channel, so with 1500 admins there should be plenty around that are clearly uninvolved in even the broadest sense of the word and could have been called upon to use their judgment. As such, FT2 is clearly in the wrong here. As to the block, I consider this case so poorly considered and judged that there are no circumstances where I would act to enforce it myself. It is also quite frightening that when nine arbitrators pass a motion in the case making one of the remedies "Policy and procedure changes regarding Misplaced Pages IRC channels will be addressed separately by this committee." that the most we see as output is a nebulous statement that the arbitrators were unable to reach a decision and act on a particular suggestion. Giano is correct in his call for the committee to state what has occurred in this area, if not necessarilly in the manner in which that request was made. GRBerry 16:04, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, what GRBerry said. Also, it appears to me that Giano was trying to have a conversation with Flonight on her talk page and everyone but Flonight was jumping in. Flonight is an administrator and an arbitrator. She can speak for herself. There was no need for everyone else to be jumping in. And I saw nothing that Giano said to be "incivil". What a crock. Tex (talk) 16:08, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

GRBerry, maybe you could file a request for clarification? Carcharoth (talk) 16:22, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I filed a request myself. See here. Carcharoth (talk) 17:24, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I won't speak to the merits of the block (I could argue it either way) but to represent FT2 as in any way an involved administrator in this affair is incorrect. Giano has a general grouse against the arbitration committee but that doesn't mean that arbitrators are therefore involved parties. They have a mandate from the community to resolve disputes, and Giano's opinion on this doesn't dissolve that mandate.

In response to Tex, FloNight specifically told Giano that FT2 was the best person to ask and invited FT2 to respond to Giano's queries on her talk page. . Nothing there invited any untoward response from Giano. --Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The 17:11, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Without commenting on the merits of the block and the circumstances surrounding it, the idea that you can expect an ArbCom member to have to rush off and find another uninvolved admin to perform a block seems to go against the grain of what we expect ArbCom members to be. This doesn't come into the same realms of involvement as, say, an admin blocking someone who they are in dispute with. Not remotely. Black Kite 18:31, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

But really, if you are going to accord special judgement status to ArbCom members like that, what about when they forget to log their blocks at the case page. I don't see any sign that this block has been logged at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/IRC#Log of blocks and bans. A common oversight, but ironic given your statement about what we "expect" of ArbCom members. They are human, after all. Carcharoth (talk) 23:02, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

A common oversight indeed. Thanks for the nudge, Carcharoth. Now done. FT2  23:18, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

This was a cowardly block by an arbitrator with a conflict of interest. It was executed to disguise the fact that the Arbcom had performed a complete U turn on one of their own passed resolutions. It is further evidence of this flawed and failing Arbcom. Giano (talk) 14:24, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Bullshit, and off topic. You were blocked because of your approach. If you want to the thorn in the side of arbcom, by all means to so, but if you want support you need to act appropriately. John Vandenberg (talk) 14:52, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Need anyone point out the irony of swearing at someone to defend a civility block? Please temper your language. Risker (talk) 14:56, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

• The block has expired. Giano's opinion is noted. This is now a closed issue. If it is necessary to further debate the matter, Giano's talk page or WT:RFAR would be more appropriate. Thatcher 15:05, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid Thatcher the matter is far from closed, but your opinion is noted too. You will obviously be sanctioning your foul mouthed friend above, or does incivility only exist in the minds of certain Arbitrators. Thank you Giano (talk) 15:30, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

No evidence of a persistent problem, and no arbitration sanctions in place, although under the circumstance I agree with Risker that the words were poorly chosen. Thatcher 15:44, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

ScienceApologist

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

Blocked 72 hours for this mostly, secondarily for the reported diff. That one is completely beyond the pale. GRBerry 17:34, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

ScienceApologist (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is subject to a civility parole per Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Martinphi-ScienceApologist#ScienceApologist_restricted. On 14:28, 25 March 2008, ScienceApologist made an edit in violation of that restriction, after being blocked on many occasions for prior violations. I therefore request that ScienceApologist be blocked for an adequate period of time, consistent with Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Martinphi-ScienceApologist#Enforcement_by_block. John254 23:27, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

• The incivil remarks are "John254's arguments are boneheaded." and "Done and dumb." I agree they are not perfectly civil, but the SA's intent was to discuss the content rather than the contributor. Not worth a block in my opinion. John Vandenberg (talk) 06:41, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

• I don't normally comment on SA's restrictions, but I disagree with your evaluation. There are many very clear ways to state that he disagree's without comments on the editors involved. The easiest is just to say "I disagree with John254's arguments" and then state why. I mostly agree with SA's views on content matters, but will almost never support his position in an arguement due to the bad faith he shows other users. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 16:24, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Matt Sanchez

The following discussion is an archived report. Please do not modify it. Subsequent reports should be made in a new section.

You tube links removed, Eleemosynary and User:Benjiboi topic banned by JzG. Eleemosynary has also garnered a 24 hour block already at this point.GRBerry 14:37, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

This fully protected article is under probation per Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Bluemarine. 7 inline citations that go to footnotes 1, 18, and 19 reference copyvio material hosted at YouTube, in violation of WP:BIO, WP:RS and Misplaced Pages:COPYRIGHT#Linking_to_copyrighted_works. Footnote 19 is no longer even functional because the copyvio material has been removed from YouTube. Requesting that these links and the potentially defamatory claims that reference them be removed from the article. Durova 23:03, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

• Is there a reason you can't use {{edit protected}} on the talk page like any other article? Thatcher 06:32, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Yes. Two editors consistently oppose, and are filling up the talk page AE thread with irrelevant comments that give passersby the mistaken impression that this is a content dispute. But this isn't a content issue; copyright is bright line policy. I am on the verge of filing a separate AE thread against one of those editors for tendentiousness, incivility, and disruption. Would prefer to avoid taking that step if possible. Durova 06:50, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
• I propose that Benjiboi (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) be topic-banned for consistent failure to follow WP:BLP and the restrictions imposed by Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Bluemarine. Benjiboi gives an extremely strong appearance of engaging in activism, which is completely unacceptable on BLP articles and this one especially. Eleemosynary (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) is also of the opinion that insisting on rigorous sourcing is "suppression" (a red flag word in my experience) so I suspect this user, too, should be topic-banned. Guy (Help!) 11:19, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Guy above. This entire area is sensitive. Failure to understand BLP... repeatedly, unfortunately, is not acceptable I don't think. NonvocalScream (talk) 14:11, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Durova's request appears sane as well. NonvocalScream (talk) 14:15, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Both Benjiboi and Eleemosynary have refused my suggestions to seek impartial input at normal venues such as WP:RSN and WP:BLPN and have been responding sarcastically, basically stonewalling. It's very clear that their participation is highly partisan, and whether they deliberately ignore policies or not they're unwilling to pursue normal avenues to settle the issues. I cannot foresee scaling down full protection on this article while they both remain active at the page. Although I've done my best to avoid seeking remedies on either of them, I wouldn't object to an article ban. Durova 19:58, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Examples of problematic behavior:

• Benjiboi accuses me of ulterior motives Let's get a grip people, does this article really deserve such attention? This over-vigilance suggests to me some other agenda than building an article I suggest WP:RSN to settle the disagreement. Benjiboi ignores the suggestion and continues to argue (which would be pointless if I actually did have a hidden agenda). Later in the thread I suggest WP:BLPN. Benjiboi responds with sarcasm.
• After I suggest WP:BLPN for an independent review of a source, Eleemosynary refuses to seek independent review and makes an uncivil bad-faith comment accusing me of game playing. (If I actually were game playing, wouldn't third party review be the perfect way to short-circuit the problem?) Note that he also cross-posts the same link disruptively. First here, then cutting and pasting the entire post including the outdated time stamp to an unrelated thread, and continues to follow up at the unrelated thread after I ask that the discussion continue at the original location. Also note Eleemosynary's unprovoked insult to another editor Your tiresome habit of dismissing all reliable sources on Sanchez's prostitution history is an ongoing, bad faith fraud.

Both of these editors simply refuse to discuss policy issues on their merits, or to use standard site mechanisms to settle differences of opinion. In good faith I supposed I had chosen a bad day when I first raised the YouTube citation problem in February, and I waited nearly a month for things to settle down in spite of the urgent BLP and copyright infringement issues. Time hasn't solved the problem. Durova 21:26, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

• OK, I think that is sufficient. Notified, , . Guy (Help!) 21:38, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

• Note that immediately after this, Benjiboi became the target of classic homophobic attacks, exactly as Matt Sanchez did before.. Lawrence § t/e 22:47, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

• Feel free to sprotect his talk page. Guy (Help!) 23:42, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

• Actually the subject of the article is the only one who seems to need the regular enforcement of his ban from all of wikipedia so, no I do not want my talk page semi'd as I find most of the anon postings are fine. I also want to contest and have overturned my topic ban as I have quite regularly and consistently worked at improving the article despite the subject's predictable homophobic taunts and personal attacks against myself and others. If I overstepped a line then simply point it out, I have demonstrated quite consistently that I am open to constructive dialog and my track record on that article and the voluminous talk page will attest that I have made many good faith efforts to keep improvements to the article as the focus. I will state I am more than a bit disturbed by what seems to me engineering or "gaming" Misplaced Pages's structure so that the subject of the article's past "adult entertainment" career is scrubbed down. I have continued to ask tough questions, for instance the ongoing photo drama that I actually help resolve by recruiting a trusted photo contributer; and challenge what I see as dubious edits by some admins, reverting an edit before fully protecting an article which others also felt was questionable. There are no winners here as it's an unfortunate COI case of a subject whose notoriety is tied to scandal that should have been handled better months earlier. Instead it dragged on until Sanchez was banned, but now the pendulum seems to be imbalanced effectively silencing dissent. I've stuck with this process as I feel it has taught me a lot about policy and how issues are resolved which has served me elsewhere but a topic ban seems heavy-handed, premature and unneeded. Benjiboi 01:11, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I fully support the block on that IP address. Benjiboi has a substantial track record overall as an editor. If he declares a willingness to use regular processes (WP:DR, WP:BLPN, WP:RSN, etc.) and to participate in good faith then I'd have no objection to scaling down his topic ban to a warning. He's a Wikipedian, not an SPA. Durova 01:17, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I believe I have regularly shown more than a willingness to abide by Misplaced Pages's policies and this suggests that I have even encouraged others to do the same even when my gut instinct suggests that something is a bit wonky. I have regularly worked to encourage dialog and coached others through many of the challenges of editing articles and see no reason to change. I would also like to see Eleemosynary's topic-ban lifted as they have consistently added clarity and balance on an article talk page. Although they may be a bit prickly at times I believe their aims are also on target to improving articles and standing up to what, at times, has seemed like abusive behaviors. It's a credit that many of those who have been abused as a by-product of that article, including both Eleemosynary and I, remain contributing. Benjiboi 02:00, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, if you're saying you think your conduct and Eleemosynary's has been fine, and that you intend to continue more of the same, then there's a problem. The article has been seriously at variance with a number of site policies despite the arbitration ruling and has been on extended full protection. Obviously that can't go on forever. What do you propose to do to normalize this situation? Durova 02:10, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

BTW the AOL IP who trolled Benjiboi today cannot be Matt Sanchez. Matt Sanchez is not in the United States. Here's a link to a site that shows he was interviewed yesterday on French television. He's in the center column. If you don't read French you can see his photograph. Durova 02:43, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but that user's contributions are some form of puppetry and I think the duck test would seem to point back to Sanchez. Benjiboi 03:26, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I think many editor's conduct in regards to the article has been less than stellar but also feel topic-ban is heavy-handed, premature and unneeded; all the editors there seem to be making good faith efforts at raising issues and addressing concerns towards improving the article. Since Sanchez's ban that talk page has greatly improved and real concerns addressed and corrected. Setting up both Eleemosynary and myself as somehow problematic for raising real concerns and keeping the article NPOV seems quite misplaced. If I made a remark, which frankly seemed, at the time at least, appropriate to your remark, that you felt was uncivil or otherwise problematic then address that. If the article is in violation of policies then address the content, not the contributors. We have a few admins more than willing to make changes and regularly editing there, raise the concern. My strongest objections have been problematic edits without dialog and removing content that should simply be improved, for semantics or in the case of your latest effort better sourcing. You feel that a YouTube posting of a broadcast is likely a violation of copyright but correctly point out that it should be sourced appropriately. Why not simply do that? Instead all the work that had been previously vetted is unraveled for others to piece back together. Some might see that as disruptive. You and I have differing views on the uses of new media, in particular blogs (of which Sanchez is a blogger) and vlogs (Sanchez is also a vlogger). I don't expect that we will quickly resolve this issue but on almost every other article this wouldn't be a concern as the sources were not asserting anything "exceptional", at all. The blog in question was, in part, a posting of Sanchez's own vlog so in that case the subject of the article was speaking for himself, and you have removed it from the article. here I suggested "I again assert that both the video of Sanchez doing what he says he does and the content which no one seems to dispute can be used and if semantics is an issue address those concerns." To answer your question "What do you propose to do to normalize this situation?" I say I'm not sure what you mean by normalize to start with as this article is well beyond the normal category. If you want me to apologize for addressing what I see as problems on the appropriate article talk page I'll have to disappoint that expectation. For my part I'll try to uphold wikipedia's policies and will continue to extend good faith towards you despite this time-suck which has kept me from editing constructively elsewhere to effectively wikilawyer which may be my least favorite wikipedia activity. I'm sorry you felt the need to take this route rather than other options and will simply chalk this up as another lesson learned. This whole thread effectively is about better sourcing, perhaps improving the sourcing seen as problematic would have been a less pointy way toward improving the article. Benjiboi 03:26, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Your insinuation is without merit. The IP that vandalised your user page is not consistent with Sanchez' current location, and Sanchez is, tio the best of my knowledge, currently restricting himself to email for communication in respect of his article. We may not, per WP:C, link to copyright violations. No consensus can overcome policy defined by Foundation on legal advice, which this is. Guy (Help!) 13:02, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

• Comment My contributions can be seen rather clearly in the talk archives, I suggest starting with the ones January 2008 as they discussions became more coherent then. I believe this demonstrates that I am far from "these editors simply refuse to discuss policy issues on their merits, or to use standard site mechanisms to settle differences of opinion". Benjiboi 04:03, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Striking through my earlier support of Benjiboi's request. His participation at this board is tendentious and gives every indication of an intent to resume old contentions about WP:COPYRIGHT and other obvious policy issues. I do not understand why he continues to insist upon sourcing to copyvio YouTube videos instead of obtaining legitimate links or transcripts, but things need to move forward and his arguments are repetitive and have been amply rebutted.

Benjiboi has my sympathy for the trolling at his user talk today; those insults were abominable. Yet he reverses the burden of proof in continuing to attribute them to Matt Sanchez. As my link above demonstrates, Matt Sanchez is in France and unable to access AOL. Furthermore, I was lucky enough to catch him online tonight (it was the wee hours in France) and he was unaware that this noticeboard thread or the bans were taking place. If an uninvolved administrator wishes to review that chat log I will ask Matt for permission to forward it. The summary version is that he acted surprised and pleased to learn about these developments, but for the most part his attentions are elsewhere and he's moving on from the disputes at Misplaced Pages. As I stated to Benjiboi, I mentor Matt on Commons but do not proxy for him--I supported his siteban from Misplaced Pages, for instance. Benjiboi has offered no evidence to support his contention that the IP troll was a meatpuppet of Sanchez.

So this topic ban has had a fair chance at reconsideration. I have invited Benjiboi to post his concerns about the Matt Sanchez article at my user talk if he wishes, in addition to the other options already specified, and pledge to review anything he offers there neutrally. To reviewing administrators, please regard such posts as welcome and non-blockable, and if things move forward productively I will follow up at this noticeboard with a request that the page ban be lifted. Hopefully that will be soon. With respect toward all, Durova 04:49, 24 March 2008 (UTC)