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Military history: Baltic states / European / Polish / World War II Start‑class

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Old talk

For some old discussions, see Talk:Dubingiai.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 01:03, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Irrelevant image

Image:Armia Krajowa killings 2.jpg is not relevant. Not only is the source dubious, but the image simply has nothing to to with Dubingiai massacre. Caption states: "Killed Lithuanians by Armia Krajowa" - this could have happened anywhere. A much better picture would be a monument in the village; is there a one? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 01:03, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Image is completely relevant. Image shows killed civilians, who there killed by Armia Krajowa in 23 June, 1944 in Molėtai district (there Dubingiai is).Article covers this time and area and specific subject. I also should note that you failed to produce any academic sources, which denounce specific facts, which supports your speculation about "dubious source". M.K. (talk) 08:52, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Anything written by Garšva is as reliable as works of Irving, as the relevant articles (Vilnija) demonstrate. Please provide a reference to your claim that the image shows what it you claim it shows.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 20:07, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

If you have undisputed facts that presented photo is falsification - present the these sources and facts. Currently you failed to produce any academic facts, which would contradict photo material presented in article. Reference of photo you will find and in presented cource. WP:IDONTLIKEIT is not and argument to delete and other information. M.K. (talk) 10:39, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Removal of the info is supported by WP:RS and WP:FRINGE, among others. In other words, Vilnija claims are not encyclopedic.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:13, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

You failed to a) produce any academic source, which support your view that this image is not relevant here b) personal speculations is not an argument, especially proclaiming something as FRINGE. Therefore image is restored. M.K. (talk) 15:02, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

And you have failed to present a source that states the photo represents people killed in Dubingiai.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 16:15, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Really? Pic taken from particular source is quite clear, there slaughter took place. Some more "new" excuses why picture should be removed? M.K. (talk) 12:35, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

70-100?

Please provide quotations and translations for the 70-100 victims range. Please provide those particularly for Rimantas Zizas Arūnas Bubnys; I am sure that KG and Vilnija make such claims - but they are hardly reliable. Also, please provide the quotation for Kozłowski's claim about Joniškis.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 21:22, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Update: I am glad to see that the ref to KG was removed without much fuss. Now, if we can get exact citations for those other claims? Do note that the issue is primarily the confusion between casualties in Dubingai; I have sources that in that period there were indeed other actions of AK that resulted in casualties among the civilian bystanders, so this is not disputed (although it would be good to have exact citations for exact numbers - who wrote 70, who wrote a 100...).--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 22:08, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Citations provided, there are more facts provided. As a gesture of I do insist that you' remove antisemitic references of yours and your friend in other articles, would you?--Lokyz (talk) 22:34, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. If you can show any article where antisemitic sources are used to make antisemitic claims, I will remove them ASAP.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 22:36, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Just a hint:Holocaust deniers are generally considered unreliable sources in Western civilization.--Lokyz (talk) 22:54, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Łupaszko or Rakoczy

Can we have a ref for Łupaszko being the commander of the unit that carried out the massacre? I have a ref in front of me that notes that the company of AK 5th Brigade that carried out the executions in Dubniki was commanded by lt. "Rakoczy" (Jan Wiktor Wiącek). For the record, Zygmunt Szendzielarz "Łupaszko" was the commander of the 5th Brigade. It is likely that some sources erroneously attribute the event to him as the unit commander, even through he was not on spot and it was "Rakoczy" who was in fact the commander on spot. PS. To clarify: can we have a ref for his direct involvement? Being a commander of a unit whose subunit does something without order and not in a presence of its superior officer should not portrayed as "a unit under the command of a superior officer did this and that".--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 21:38, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Mass murder or executions?

Please provide the ref (with original and translation if necessary) for the term "mass murder"; the ref I have in front of me (which I will soon use to expand this article) refers to the event as "executions" (pl. "rozstrzelanie").--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 21:41, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Civilians

I do not intend to go into edit warring and violate WP:3RR, you're trying to force me into. Just let me provide translation of the citation (presented on the main page) for antoher time: "Translation=Especially brutally were murdered Dubingiai inhabitants on the end of June 1944. According to a non final data Polish partisants did kill here around 70 peacefull people, including old men and underage kids." Please explain, what word exactly describes killed people as"non civil", "military", "agressors", "collaborant" and any other. I do understand, that someone might find, that "old men" and "underage children" is not enough to be "civil" population, but the source say just that.--Lokyz (talk) 23:10, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

The translation suffers from poor grammar and ambiguity. First of all, it suggest that - contrary to all other sources - in Dubingaiai itself 70, not 27, people were killed. Second, "peacefull people" is very unclear. I am not disputing that some innocent bystanders were killed, but how many? Were all 70 innocent bystanders? Polish sources note that there were such casualties, but also note that the victims included members of Nazi-Lithuanian police forces and administration, as well as the fact that many executed civilians were either informants of the police/Nazis or fought against the Poles. The story is quite different when the "old men" become "informants" and "underage kids" - "child soldiers" (many partisans, Polish and presumably Lithuanian, were underage - being 13 or 14 years old did not prevent over 2000 of children to take part in Warsaw Uprising, for example). PS. For the record, I don't consider you edit warring on this article, replacing tags with citations - or adding tags with explanations to a new place - is not edit warring; only repeating removal (or addition) of the same information or tag in the same place would qualify. I think we are making nice progress here improving this article.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 23:20, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

No wonder indeed, if you kill someone in retaliation just for having a Lithuanian prayer book (why did this referenced information was removed?), you need some reasons to state for public.

And your assumptions about child soldiers do not hold water either. The books has many more facts - including Polish killings of Lithuanian teachers and foresters, and also clear statement that AK in this region did evade direct actions against Nazi, focusing their efforts only to Soviet partisants and local Lithuanian administration.--Lokyz (talk) 08:31, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

The prayer book information makes little sense and is contradictory to other sources. Can you provide a larger - let's say, paragraph - quotation, translation and another source that confirms that possession of the prayer book was the main reason for being killed? I have plenty of sources that describe AK fights with the Germans, although due to such high level of Lithuanian collaboration Germans were indeed able to significantly lessen their presence near Vilna, hence by simple numbers and odds most of AK anti-Nazi operations encountered Lithuanian opposition, not German. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 16:46, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

As for now you haven't provided a SINGLE translated WORD to support you allegations, although you insist Polish point of view is "reliable" (installing Polish newspaper scrap, and removing Lithuanian newspaper as not reliable - well, because it is newspaper). Remember, this is still English Misplaced Pages, not Polish.

Please note, we are talking about documented killings by Polish side, and note, that I did show good will removing reference to a person, you did attack personally violating WP:LIVING, and also I did provide citations you requested. And please note, you did interpret and twist them them without any supporting evidence. So I do not consider your evidence worth a dime, unless you provide translated citations, and I do reserve my right to interpret them, the way you did mine. Furthermore - what you did in this article, is a justification of mass murder of civilian people (including children). Think about it, and think how other people would think about you after such statement.

FYI - there is evidence, that there were 4 children killed in their cradles (including three months old child), and one 10 years girl raped and killed. Were those also "children soldiers"? And killed whole families holding rosaries and prayer books were also enemies?.--Lokyz (talk) 23:32, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't intend to continue the discussion if you will misinterpret my statements into such lies. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 04:22, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

So you step down from your statement "The story is quite different when the "old men" become "informants" and "underage kids" - "child soldiers""? I'm rather interested what part of your statement did I misinterpreted? As for German collaborators - I do have evidence, that AK soldiers killed Lithuanians who were volunteers in Lithuanian Wars of Independence, and had nothing to do with Nazi government. yes thay did kill family of one Policemen, and one Policemen - but killing family with little children is not the same as kill collaborator, don't you think? But well, I might be overreacting, as I've read the Lithuanian commission material and it is quite difficult to remain calm after reading how, for example, AK did shoot a teacher in the school, holding her two years child in her hands, or stabbed a child lying in a cradle with a bayonet and held him in the air until he stopped moving, and many more facts of "punishing collaborators". BTW, I do have full statement of this commission, and it clearly states that AK did commit manslaughter and crimes against humanity. It's official document, not some newspaper interpretation.

Another thing - please would you explain, how so you forgot to mention in the edit summary, that you are removing perfectly valid references to professional historians, both of whom are specialists on the subject here, and evaded requested citation from Polish newspaper (how so is Polish newspaper good, ad Lithuanian is not?)--Lokyz (talk) 08:44, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Building emotional straw man is not a game I intend to play, so I will not go into details on how Lithuanians killed a three-year old in Glinciszki who was trying to crawl away from the bodies of her parents, or how they mutilated the dead bodies with barbed wire. Sufficient to say that all reliable sources, including certain historian Bubnys, agree that the tragedy in Dubingia was an exception to the rule - while for Lithuanian collaborators, Glinciszki was just one of many similar incidents. No matter how unpleasant, you will find it hard to challenge this fact.

What commission document? Could you reference it? Is there a Polish or English translation?

The refs were removed because you have failed to provide citations that most victims of the larger action were civilians. Some, I don't dispute that. PS. If Rimantas Zizas is such an expert, could you create a stub on him? Thanks, --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 12:05, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I do not intend to create any more stubs on people you seem not to like. You might look for Zizas in Google search, he's Lithuanian Institute of History scientific associate.

As a matter of fact,it is the only one act, that Poles do acknowledge. The documents and statements of survivors speak about many many more robbings of Lithuanian villages and killings of innocent people. As a matter of fact Bubnys mentions not only this one incident, and says that tehre were several hundred Lithuanians killed by AK. Many of survivors evidences were presented in the before Lithuanian commission. I do not recall Bubnys stating that this was an isolated incident.

It would be really cooperational of you, to restore removed valid references (including those of Bubnys and Zizas). you still have failed to evaluate why did you remove them? i suspect it is WP:IDONTLIKE case. The reference is perfectly valid, as it does speak about "peacefull" people. If you insist, i can build a list of victims. As far i do remember there were 4 children shot/stabed with bayonets lying in cradles, 2 year old kid shot lying in a bed with his mother, raped and shot 10 years old girl (after death she was inscribed K word on her body with a knife), another 10 year old boy and 13 years old girl, an 83 years old grandma shot in a head and left alive for another 8 hours to die. Should I continue the list of supposedly collaborators?

The documents are available in Lithuanian, as the commission was Lithuanian.--Lokyz (talk) 15:48, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree that labeling 0,5-7 year old children as "child soldiers" is completely unacceptable. M.K. (talk) 12:35, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

You may want to ponder on the difference between justification and explanation. Or did I justify Nazi starvation of Poles and Russians in Hunger Plan? Hmmm? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 20:07, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Dubious claims

Apart from non encyclopedic language which was employed in this article, I would like to request that proper citations should be provided to identify who proclaimed "Lithuanian units" as "guilty". there was any trial? Or this is routine AK's terror excuse by non existing proclamation of guilt. Second I refuse to believe that Polish sources actually notes that killing civilian population was "success" as relevant article parts implies, exact citations and translations are requested. M.K. (talk) 15:08, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

The guilty were determined by the AK Special Tribunal (akin to military tribunal). Translation - Piskunowicz, p.57: "Only the drastic methods, which unintentionally affected the Lithuanian population on the pre-war territory of the Lithuanian state, made the Lithuanian political elites realize that further repressions aganst the Poles will not be tolerated and will result in immediate Polish reprisal. Lithuanians did not use any reprisals . The AK Vilna Region HQ had no intention of fighting with the Lithuanian civilians. However once again it was shown that even a planned reprisal limited to members of police formation and administration involved in repressions could escalate and result in tragedies of uninvolved, innocent people. It should be noted that was the only reprisal action of such type ever carried out by AK during the Nazi occupation as a result of an order from any AK regional HQ." --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 16:53, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

First AK have no legal authority, therefore these assertions of "guilty" is dubious. M.K. (talk) 12:35, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

As long as we talk about dubious claims, the issue of 200 victims, sourced to some rather unknown Lithuanian newspaper, was discussed here. Per WP:RS and WP:V: "exceptional claims require exceptional sources". Doubling the range of victims requires something more than one newspaper.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 04:28, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

a) this is not the newspaper b) you removed it not only from referencing numbers c) it seems that it is only you who disputes this nobody supports your view. M.K. (talk) 12:35, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

If it is not a newspaper, what is it? Who is the author of that claim, and what are his/her academic credentials? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 16:43, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Removed info

Since we seem to have some unhelpful edit war, let me explain why I think certain recent additions are unhelpful:

• info on Zygmunt Szendzielarz being posthumously awarded a medal is not relevant as it had nothing to do with Dubinki; we could just as well discuss the controversy over a similar reward to Nazi collaborator Povilas Plechavičius. This is done elsewhere, and this is not a place for such discussions. Even the fact that Szendzielarz was executed (which I have added) is of dubious relevance, as I don't have a source that clearly connects his fate with the massacre.
• accusations of AK collaborations with the Germans are discussed elsewhere and have nothing at all to do with this article
• several sources note that the policemen responsible for Glnciszki masaacre and their families were in Dubinki, and that this was the reason this village was chosen; there is nothing "alleged" about this
• please don't restore claim that most of the victims of June 23-27 were civilians until you provide a source that states so; the current sources are unclear on percentage of civilians among the victims; we have included a note that there were civilians victims - please don't add ORish speculation that they were a majority
• the Panorama 200 claim should be discussed above

Thank you,--_{[[User:Piotrus|Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul}

Absolutely concur. The article in its current form is NPOV IMO. No one tries to whitewash the fact that AK murdered those Lithuanians. - Darwinek (talk) 17:52, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Piotrus]]| talk 16:43, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

a) from this it is quite clear who started this edit war. b) Zygmunt Szendzielarz being posthumously awarded a medal is completely relevant as he was the person who organized the raid, and yes Lithuanian sources clearly connects massacre and awarding. c) presenting one side as collaborators, and stressing this in any possible location, while being silent on AK collaboration, (which was established before this slaughter)is not NPOV. I will add additional sources for this claim. d) Alleged is necessary , if want to avoid it proper attribution to original claim should be made; more so called AK "courts" judgments are dubious,at best. e) Is it surprise to learn that panorama is not newspaper? form this edit it seem that was clear conversance over the source...in other hand I ready temporary to drop 200 victim claim until find another book. f) variuos other issues - like over linking, WP:UNDUE attributions, removal of other referenced academic statements, removal of variuos other expansions are not "more neutral version" M.K. (talk) 00:59, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

If you can provide a ref that connects Szelendziarz award with controversy, we can add it - but it's undue weight to the lead.

Since all Lithuanian units were collaborators, it's not really 'presenting one side as such'. As almost none of Polish units were - and probably none of those involved in this incident (after all they were fighting Nazis and their collaborators), this is quite obviously off topic.

The sentence about L. guards is clearly attributed via footnotes.

Feel free to discuss those various issues in more detail, it is more helpful than just reverting.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 07:47, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

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