| Revision as of 16:44, 3 April 2008 editTimVickers (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users58,184 edits →Comments by {{User1|Abecedare}}: edit reply← Previous edit | Revision as of 16:25, 4 April 2008 edit undoTheNautilus (talk | contribs)1,377 editsm →highly UNDUE wt on minor indirect reference in lede: trivial, indirect coverage. About two phrases to 3 paragraphs in 17 pagesNext edit → | ||
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| :::::Well, perhaps, but aren't pretty much all American doctors AMA members by default? I mean, if we're talking about them being high-ranking AMA members able to set policy, that's one thing, but I think you're presuming professional bodies have more control over their members than is reasonable if simply having membership in an organisation which almost every American in the medical profession gets membership in by default is your evidence of bias. Also Tim Vickers, who along with you is the main editor here in the last couple weeks, is Scottish, and the ''American'' Medical Assosciation is not generally considered to have power outside of America. ] (]) 14:49, 3 April 2008 (UTC) | :::::Well, perhaps, but aren't pretty much all American doctors AMA members by default? I mean, if we're talking about them being high-ranking AMA members able to set policy, that's one thing, but I think you're presuming professional bodies have more control over their members than is reasonable if simply having membership in an organisation which almost every American in the medical profession gets membership in by default is your evidence of bias. Also Tim Vickers, who along with you is the main editor here in the last couple weeks, is Scottish, and the ''American'' Medical Assosciation is not generally considered to have power outside of America. ] (]) 14:49, 3 April 2008 (UTC) | ||
| ::::::My note is mostly cautionary. The doctors are in and out. Many editors I do have to invest substantial effort in education about orthomed items to carry a conversation. Tim's interests appear to me to be antithetical to most basic orthomed claims.--] (]) 15:27, 3 April 2008 (UTC) | ::::::My note is mostly cautionary. The doctors are in and out. Many editors I do have to invest substantial effort in education about orthomed items to carry a conversation. Tim's interests appear to me to be antithetical to most basic orthomed claims.--] (]) 15:27, 3 April 2008 (UTC) | ||
| :::::::Reportedly, 15–20% of practicing physicians are AMA members. While the actual number is a bit nebulous, it's almost certainly a minority. I'm not a member, though they keep sending me enticements. The AMA looms large as a bad guy in the alternative-medical world for largely historical reasons. I doubt there are editors who are here to push a "pro-AMA" POV, though I suppose it's possible. I think it's more likely that many editors simply regard the AMA's statement as a notable and reliable source describing one element of mainstream medical opinion. Familiarity with the in-universe aspects of orthomolecular medicine isn't a requirement to edit the article. ''']''' <sup>]</sup> 16:15, 3 April 2008 (UTC) | :::::::Reportedly, 15–20% of practicing physicians are AMA members. While the actual number is a bit nebulous, it's almost certainly a minority. I'm not a member, though they keep sending me enticements. The AMA looms large as a bad guy in the alternative-medical world for largely historical reasons. I doubt there are editors who are here to push a "pro-AMA" POV, though I suppose it's possible. I think it's more likely that many editors simply regard the AMA's statement as a notable and reliable source describing one element of mainstream medical opinion. Familiarity with the in-universe aspects of orthomolecular medicine isn't a requirement to edit the article. ''']''' <sup>]</sup> 16:15, 3 April 2008 (UTC) | ||
| ==highly UNDUE wt on minor indirect reference in lede== | |||
| Move relevant part even remotely supported by quotes to body, "Guackery" not quoted. The '''17''' page 1983 paper, whose brief *criticism of Pauling and Bronson Pharmaceutical*, mentions "orthomolecularism" and "]" once each in passing while criticizing Pauling's book and Bronson Pharmaceuticals (Pauling's supplier). Note: This (un)"scientific" criticism rests on precisely zero (0) (none remotely close to orthomed's & ) of even Pauling's lowest , still after 37 years, no relevant mainstream work published, at all! | |||
| Jarvis: ''"Food faddism meets a persistent human desire. As Maple (54) says, "In the face of the great leveller, Death, we are all children listening fearfully for the footsteps of doom, and relieved only by the whisperings of hope. This is suggested in the opening of Nobel Laureate Linus Pauling’s book, ''Vitamin C and the Common Cold'', a significant force in promoting "orthomolecularism" and widespread excessive vitamin C supplementation. Pauling states:'' | |||
| :''" The idea that I should write this book developed gradually in my mind during the last five years. In April 1966 I received a letter from Dr. Irwin Stone, a biochemist whom I had met at the Carl Neuberg Medal Award dinner the previous month. He mentioned in his letter that I had expressed a desire to live for the next fifteen or twenty years. He said he would like to see me remain in good health for the nextfi3’i-y years, and that he was accordingly sending me a description of his high-level ascorbic-acid regimen.'' and <br> | |||
| ''"Bronson Pharmaceuticals makes books available at discount prices to medical doctors that promote scientifically questionable theories on megavitamin therapy, orthomolecular psychiatry, and the use of vitamins to prevent colds, flu, cancer, allergies, and so forth. Of the 25 rifles listed by Bronson in their 4-81 "Special Book Offer," not one appears on the list of nutrition references recommended by a respected professional association (10), while several appear on its "not recommended" list. Bronson may be..."'' | |||
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Archive
I've archived the enormous talk page, using the "move page" method to preserve the edit history. Let's start over, with a clean slate. Maybe we could discuss something simple, like whether #Orthomolecular doctors and #Orthomolecular scientists could be merged, before getting back to the complications of writing a perfect lead. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:32, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Notable
- "Notable OM Drs & Scientists" would be okay with me. I prefer the previous 3-4 column format, too.--TheNautilus (talk) 12:09, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
- What do you think about "Notable supporters"? The word "doctor" makes me itch, because it can legitimately include PhDs, but is usually received as "licensed physicians." WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:30, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
- Ooooh, outed my cultural assumptions. "Notable OM Physicians & Scientists"? AFAIK, most, or at least the notable non-PhD/DSc "doctors" are MDs and foreign versions.--TheNautilus (talk) 18:50, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
- I can support that. On further reflection, it has the added advantage of keeping the size of the list under control. "Supporters" could have been interpreted as "anyone with a website or quoted in a magazine article." Would you like to merge the two sections? Perhaps we could alphabetize the names, and use {{div col}} or some such template to make the information more compact? WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:47, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Lead
I also agree that leaving the lead alone for a while in the form approved by the RfC is an excellent idea. Tim Vickers (talk) 17:08, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks for your prompt attention, I said 2 days off. I thought we should try a more neutral, less injurious version on for size, we could still talk. The "faddism" and "quackery" are not acceptable lede material, they are poisonous attacks given WP:UNDUE weight often based on highly flawed allegations & distortions, even trivially obvious in the scientific senses. Because of the historical facts on major OMM areas, although I will agree that vitriolic critics are notable in the general sense, their inflammatory misrepresentions & coverage promoting distortions & scientific misconduct that scientifically & commercially interferes & unfairly deprecates others' legitimate results should be discussed where there is space for balancing quotes, references and reader's (yawn) voluntary continued interest.--TheNautilus (talk) 17:44, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, there are some concerns with the lead, but let's give it a rest for a while. Perhaps over the weekend, we can start a fresh subpage to edit the lead -- edited just like it was the real article, until we can get a reasonable compromise that we can then paste into the article.
- One suggestion in the meantime: If there's something that you want to eventually be included in the lead, would you please make sure that it's present in the main body of the article? The guidelines state that the "lead section should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article," and I'm inclined to enforce the covered in the article bit fairly strictly. So if you want any particular point in the lead, please make sure that it's appropriately represented in the article. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:40, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
- At the moment the first paragraph summarizes "basics" and "method" (those have to go first, so the reader can grasp the subject) the second paragraph deals with the material in "history" and "criticism". The section on "popularity" isn't covered in the lead, that could go as part of a new second paragraph with the "history" summary. Tim Vickers (talk) 18:53, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
- Link offensive text dif and moved text to subpage. That last sentence has never been agreed on and as far as I am concerned, has all the lede legitmacy of a KKK scholar's published scholarly opinion ca 1915-1924 on various ethnicities. That kind of last sentence is material that needs to be discussed, not the default article.--TheNautilus (talk) 19:11, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
- Indeed it was discussed in the RFC, with 3/4 uninvolved editors preferring this over your version. Just because you disagree with this consensus is no reason to pretend this hasn't been discussed. I've unarchived the RfC, since this was still listed as active. Perhaps more uninvolved editors will comment. Tim Vickers (talk) 19:22, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
- For poorly founded, inflammatory material, it was not clearly agreed in the manner & time I have learned to expect, where less troubled, more neutrally worded versions are available. Also there are in essence three versions. I appreciate the input but I will consider facts and policies as best as I know how. Strict numbers aren't the basis of good editing on RfCs or consensus, either, especially in partisan & conflict of interest situations. I also think that the RfC proposition was too narrow and has changed.--TheNautilus (talk) 19:29, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Request for comment on the attribution of criticism in the lead
Which version do people prefer, in light of the NPOV policy? Tim Vickers (talk) 17:22, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
- Version 1
Some therapies that meet the criteria Linus Pauling established to define orthomolecular medical therapies, such as the use of vitamins and nutrients to treat dyslipidemia, are also used in mainstream medicine. However, the scientific and medical consensus is that the broad claims of efficacy advanced by advocates of orthomolecular medicine are not adequately tested as drug therapies, where oppononents and partisans have even described it as a form of food faddism and quackery. Proponents of this approach to medicine note that some research investigating the therapeutic use of nutrients have been published in mainstream sources, and that vitamins are used in conventional medicine as treatments for some diseases.
- Guyton JR (2007). "Niacin in cardiovascular prevention: mechanisms, efficacy, and safety". Curr. Opin. Lipidol. 18 (4): 415–20. doi:10.1097/MOL.0b013e3282364add. PMID 17620858.
- Stuart Aaronson et. al. "Cancer Medicine", 2003, BC Decker Inc ISBN 1–55009–213–8, Section 20, p76
- Jarvis WT (1983). "Food faddism, cultism, and quackery". Annu. Rev. Nutr. 3: 35–52. doi:10.1146/annurev.nu.03.070183.000343. PMID 6315036.
- Eat it up and be a good boy. The Economist, February 2, 2008
- Gesch CB et al, Influence of supplementary vitamins, minerals and essential fatty acids on the antisocial behaviour of young adult prisoners. Randomised, placebo-controlled trial., Br J Psych, 2002, Vol. 181, pp. 22-28 2002
- Research backs theory that vitamin C shrinks tumours. The Independent, 28 March 2006
- Version 2
Some conventional therapies use nutrients, such as using niacin to treat dyslipidemia, and some research investigating therapeutic uses of nutrients has been published in mainstream sources. However, the scientific and medical consensus is that the broad claims of efficacy advanced by advocates of orthomolecular medicine are unsupported, with the American Medical Association saying that the idea that most diseases can be prevented by nutritional interventions is a myth. Orthomolecular medicine has even been described as a form of food faddism and quackery.
- Guyton JR (2007). "Niacin in cardiovascular prevention: mechanisms, efficacy, and safety". Curr. Opin. Lipidol. 18 (4): 415–20. doi:10.1097/MOL.0b013e3282364add. PMID 17620858.
- Eat it up and be a good boy. The Economist, February 2, 2008
- Gesch CB et al, Influence of supplementary vitamins, minerals and essential fatty acids on the antisocial behaviour of young adult prisoners. Randomised, placebo-controlled trial., Br J Psych, 2002, Vol. 181, pp. 22-28 2002
- Research backs theory that vitamin C shrinks tumours. The Independent, 28 March 2006
- Stuart Aaronson et. al. "Cancer Medicine", 2003, BC Decker Inc ISBN 1–55009–213–8, Section 20, p76
- Complementary and Alternative Therapies: Orthomolecular Medicine American Cancer Society, 19 June 2007, Accessed 20 March 08
- Report 12 of the Council on Scientific Affairs: Alternative medicine American Medical Association June 1997, Accessed 21 March 2008
- Jarvis WT (1983). "Food faddism, cultism, and quackery". Annu. Rev. Nutr. 3: 35–52. doi:10.1146/annurev.nu.03.070183.000343. PMID 6315036.
Involved editors comments
- I prefer version 2, since it directly cites a notable medical organisation and does not use the POV term "partisan" in describing the author of the review in Annual Reviews of Nutrition that described this form of alternative medicine as food faddism and quackery. Tim Vickers (talk) 17:22, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
- Version 1 provides a substantial summary notice that there is notable disagreement from various opponents and economic interests. Anymore detail, even with balancing quotes, overloads the lede and favors the critics by obscuring the basic coverage, description & definition of orthomolecular medicine, where so many, including its "expert" critics cannot even get orthomed's basic concepts, science, experimental/clinical evidence & history straight.--TheNautilus (talk) 17:32, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
- I find version 1 more appealing. Version 2, however, would be great if it were expanded to include the fact that Linus Pauling emphatically disagreed with the notion that his claims were unsupported. There are multiple WP:RS for this.--Alterrabe (talk) 17:54, 21 March 2008 (UTC) We could separate the debate over partisan from that about including the ACS in the lead.--Alterrabe (talk) 18:07, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
- I've added a section on the history to the lead, which explains the role of Pauling in establishing this field and tried to remove the wordiness by condensing the rest of the text. Hopefully this will make the lead more readable and summarise the article better. Tim Vickers (talk) 20:49, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
Uninvolved editors comments
- OK, well I'm a bit confused about the reference to food faddism in the lead if it's not in the body of the article. If someone could explain that to me I'd appreciate it, and I'll hold off on making a judgment between the two versions until then. Thanks, Antelan 20:15, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
- I've added an expanded definition of that term to the "Views on Safety and Efficacy" section, added a paragraph on the history of OM to the lead, and trimmed the wordiness a little. Tim Vickers (talk) 22:24, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks. I find Version 2 more useful for the following reasons: (a) it avoids the point-counterpoint argument being set up in Version 1; and (b) it points to specific, rather than general, criticisms. Antelan 23:00, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
- I've added an expanded definition of that term to the "Views on Safety and Efficacy" section, added a paragraph on the history of OM to the lead, and trimmed the wordiness a little. Tim Vickers (talk) 22:24, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
- In terms of a well-written introduction, I don't really like either of the options. They are both wordy (for example, "opponents and partisans") and assume knowledge that the first-time reader doesn't have (like why Linus Pauling's definition matters). Furthermore, the paragraph could be accurately summarized simply as "Critics think this controversial field needs more scientific research to support its claims." I dislike option two slightly less than I dislike option one. Option one promotes the wrong standard for testing the field (you test a specific compound for a specific disease in a drug trial, not the "broad claims" of all advocates). If option one is chosen, then the word "partisans" should be struck from the first option as being POV and redundant to boot. However, I think that reading WP:LEAD and starting over entirely might be the best option. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:41, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
- Your comments on one of the recent, one paragraph lede, a previously more stable version would be appreciated. To see the wordsmithing and then some (d)evolution of the lede, it appears to start about here. I have set up the subpage for editing and comparing suggestions & changes.--TheNautilus (talk) 00:26, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
- It is getting wordier and more poisonous POV pushing the lede instead of a one sentence note that there is strong disagreement to be expanded upon in the body.--TheNautilus (talk) 06:51, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
I am sort of confused since they both have criticism in the LEAD. However, I ahve to agree with Tim Vickers that I like the attribution to the AMA. I do not mind the point, counterpoint, but it might be a bit much for the LEAD. Better to save this for the body.--Filll (talk) 23:46, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
- For reliability as a source, it is necessary to mention the American Medical Association's criticism if the title includes the word "medicine". Also, consider scenarios (1) and (2): (1) an official body (AMA, FDA, etc.) does not consider the treatment scientifically tested for efficacy, and this is the general consensus in medicine (2) there is a general state of disagreement in the medical/scientific community about the efficacy. If the situation is like (1), then it has to be written differently, with no "sides of disagreement". If it's like (2), then you can have "sides" even in the lead. The reason is that there are theories rejected as unscientific in all sciences; their proponents tend to "teach the controversy", and make an impression that there is genuine disagreement within the scientific community. It is necessary for an encyclopedia to be "shielded" against attacks like these that attempt to use the site as a soapbox / for free hosting. --Vuo (talk) 16:15, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
- Summarizing, Version 2 is better, because it is shorter and doesn't introduce "proponents" and "opponents". Everyone can be a proponent or opponent. Everyone isn't a PhD in Medicine. --Vuo (talk) 19:07, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
- Can someone list the respective sources used by the two versions ? It will greatly help me (and possibly other uninvolved editors) judge whether the statements reflect, (1) what the cited sources say and (2) whether the sources are being properly weighted and characterized. Thanks. I am too lazy to read the version in edit mode! :) Abecedare (talk) 19:58, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
- This updated, shorter version (3c), with handy references, attempts to address the text and reference issues. Because of the extremely contentious nature of this area, *and the construction of the lede* it seems RS would demand a higher quality reference for such an unbalanced quote with partisan sources, where the implied imprimatur is abused at both the AMA level (for non peer reviewed references), and here, both as OR and an attack, where there peer-reviewed counterexamples, such as mainstreamed megavitamin therapies. As a source for "A controversial field deprecated by some critics..." in (3c), it would be less problematic, but strictly speaking, IMHO, WP:OR.--TheNautilus (talk) 20:57, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Comments by Abecedare (talk · contribs)
Having gone through the cited sources, I think version 2 is better in terms of accurate and NPOV representation of the material (remember, NPOV does not mean equal weight to all sides). Following are some more detailed observations:
- Problems with version 1
- The "he said-she-said" formulation is unsatisfactory since it fails to provide sufficient information to the reader in the main text, about who the opponents and proponents are that would enable him/her to form an educated opinion about the credibility and authoritativeness of the two sides. Naming AMA in the second version at least partially ameliorates this concern.
- The phrase "opponents and partisans" is clearly POV.
- "Proponents of this approach to medicine note ..." See words to avoid
- Aranson's "There is no evidence ..." is better characterized by the word "unsupported" in Version 2, than the "not adequately tested" in Version 1. (Minor point: The sentence in version 1 is grammatically incorrect, since it implies that the claims are "not adequately tested as drug therapies").
- I am not sure that the two sources on behavioral benefits from nutrient supplements are relevant to the sentence they are used to support, since as far as I see this is not "research investigating the therapeutic use of nutrients." Note that neither of the two sources talk about "therapy".
- The role of Linus Pauling as a "significant force in promoting 'orthomolecularism'" (Jarvis, 1983) should be mentioned somewhere in the lede, though not necessarily in this paragraph.
Abecedare (talk) 21:07, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks. Your first 3 points are an interesting guide development of the future text. The 4th point is a discussion (later).
- Your 5th point has two answers. One on the BJP & Economist references, version 1 above, this OMM article used to explicitly include OMM and "optimum nutrition", not just "OM medicine". "Optimum nutrition" has tended to get lost in the scuffles over the lede. Second, is that the referenced supplements are more like OMM "optimum nutrition" in five components: GLA, DHA, EPA, chromium, and molybdenum. The multivitamins and other minerals are relatively ordinary but still more than the standard "diet alone" nutrition views.
- Your sixth point about Pauling's role is fine, however other references already make the point about Pauling's effect probably better. Jarvis was a frequent contributor to (tiny, WP technically unreliable) NCAHF extremism, where WP article improvement is reference improvement for more mainstream views that are in the mainstream of science writing. I hope that you will consider Menolascino's (1988) criticism as a much more scientifically informed and balanced mainstream medical reference.--TheNautilus (talk) 23:31, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
- A quick response about my Linus Pauling comment: I didn't mean to suggest the exact wording for the inclusion or that Jarvis should be used to reference this fact. I only meant to indicate that the "LP-othomolecular medicine "association seems significant enough to be mentioned in the lede somewhere. Sorry for not being clearer. Abecedare (talk) 23:57, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
- This is mentioned in the current version of the lead, this RfC is only considering the final and controversial paragraph of the lead. Tim Vickers (talk) 00:35, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
- A quick response about my Linus Pauling comment: I didn't mean to suggest the exact wording for the inclusion or that Jarvis should be used to reference this fact. I only meant to indicate that the "LP-othomolecular medicine "association seems significant enough to be mentioned in the lede somewhere. Sorry for not being clearer. Abecedare (talk) 23:57, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
- Your sixth point about Pauling's role is fine, however other references already make the point about Pauling's effect probably better. Jarvis was a frequent contributor to (tiny, WP technically unreliable) NCAHF extremism, where WP article improvement is reference improvement for more mainstream views that are in the mainstream of science writing. I hope that you will consider Menolascino's (1988) criticism as a much more scientifically informed and balanced mainstream medical reference.--TheNautilus (talk) 23:31, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
AMA discussion
In response to your concerns about the inclusion of this source, I have posted a question at the RS noticeboard so people can discuss the issue. Tim Vickers (talk) 17:16, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
- I think that RS/N is premature, as I said before , since, after naming its targets, the AMA doesn't even state "orthomolecular" anywhere - that makes it Original research or offtopic. Also many editors *are* AMA members or unfamiliar with the underlying issues that especially concern orthomolecular medicine.--TheNautilus (talk) 17:44, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
- ...Um... do you have any evidence that editors are AMA members? Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 11:25, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, but presenting that would get me in trouble and be improper for several reasons. See also Doctorfinder. I think that it is easier to confirm that they routinely claim here to be physicians and often have similar views. Also note the "or" part, which is largely my OR, but the Talk pages here (and elsewhere) are my evidence.--TheNautilus (talk) 14:33, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
- Well, perhaps, but aren't pretty much all American doctors AMA members by default? I mean, if we're talking about them being high-ranking AMA members able to set policy, that's one thing, but I think you're presuming professional bodies have more control over their members than is reasonable if simply having membership in an organisation which almost every American in the medical profession gets membership in by default is your evidence of bias. Also Tim Vickers, who along with you is the main editor here in the last couple weeks, is Scottish, and the American Medical Assosciation is not generally considered to have power outside of America. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 14:49, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
- My note is mostly cautionary. The doctors are in and out. Many editors I do have to invest substantial effort in education about orthomed items to carry a conversation. Tim's interests appear to me to be antithetical to most basic orthomed claims.--TheNautilus (talk) 15:27, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
- Well, perhaps, but aren't pretty much all American doctors AMA members by default? I mean, if we're talking about them being high-ranking AMA members able to set policy, that's one thing, but I think you're presuming professional bodies have more control over their members than is reasonable if simply having membership in an organisation which almost every American in the medical profession gets membership in by default is your evidence of bias. Also Tim Vickers, who along with you is the main editor here in the last couple weeks, is Scottish, and the American Medical Assosciation is not generally considered to have power outside of America. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 14:49, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, but presenting that would get me in trouble and be improper for several reasons. See also Doctorfinder. I think that it is easier to confirm that they routinely claim here to be physicians and often have similar views. Also note the "or" part, which is largely my OR, but the Talk pages here (and elsewhere) are my evidence.--TheNautilus (talk) 14:33, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
- ...Um... do you have any evidence that editors are AMA members? Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 11:25, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
- Reportedly, 15–20% of practicing physicians are AMA members. While the actual number is a bit nebulous, it's almost certainly a minority. I'm not a member, though they keep sending me enticements. The AMA looms large as a bad guy in the alternative-medical world for largely historical reasons. I doubt there are editors who are here to push a "pro-AMA" POV, though I suppose it's possible. I think it's more likely that many editors simply regard the AMA's statement as a notable and reliable source describing one element of mainstream medical opinion. Familiarity with the in-universe aspects of orthomolecular medicine isn't a requirement to edit the article. MastCell 16:15, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
highly UNDUE wt on minor indirect reference in lede
Move relevant part even remotely supported by quotes to body, "Guackery" not quoted. The 17 page 1983 paper, whose brief *criticism of Pauling and Bronson Pharmaceutical*, mentions "orthomolecularism" and "orthomolecular psychiatry" once each in passing while criticizing Pauling's book and Bronson Pharmaceuticals (Pauling's supplier). Note: This (un)"scientific" criticism rests on precisely zero (0) relevant tests (none remotely close to orthomed's dosage & frequency) of even Pauling's lowest , still after 37 years, no relevant mainstream work published, at all! Jarvis: "Food faddism meets a persistent human desire. As Maple (54) says, "In the face of the great leveller, Death, we are all children listening fearfully for the footsteps of doom, and relieved only by the whisperings of hope. This is suggested in the opening of Nobel Laureate Linus Pauling’s book, Vitamin C and the Common Cold, a significant force in promoting "orthomolecularism" and widespread excessive vitamin C supplementation. Pauling states:
- " The idea that I should write this book developed gradually in my mind during the last five years. In April 1966 I received a letter from Dr. Irwin Stone, a biochemist whom I had met at the Carl Neuberg Medal Award dinner the previous month. He mentioned in his letter that I had expressed a desire to live for the next fifteen or twenty years. He said he would like to see me remain in good health for the nextfi3’i-y years, and that he was accordingly sending me a description of his high-level ascorbic-acid regimen. and
"Bronson Pharmaceuticals makes books available at discount prices to medical doctors that promote scientifically questionable theories on megavitamin therapy, orthomolecular psychiatry, and the use of vitamins to prevent colds, flu, cancer, allergies, and so forth. Of the 25 rifles listed by Bronson in their 4-81 "Special Book Offer," not one appears on the list of nutrition references recommended by a respected professional association (10), while several appear on its "not recommended" list. Bronson may be..."
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