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This noticeboard is for discussing the application of the biographies of living people (BLP) policy to article content. Please seek to resolve issues on the article talk page first, and only post here if that discussion requires additional input.

Do not copy and paste defamatory material here; instead, link to a diff showing the problem.

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• Edits by the subject of an article may be welcome in some cases.
• For general content disputes regarding biographical articles, try Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Biographies instead.
• Editors are encouraged to assist editors regarding the reports below. Administrators may impose contentious topic restrictions to enforce policies.

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Individual articles

What about this case?

• Desi Arnaz (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

(Note - this is reposted from BLP page.) Wanderer57 (talk) 02:47, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm posting this here because, though the subject of the article is no longer alive, I believe his children are.

This diff has just been posted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Desi_Arnaz&diff=198326795&oldid=197729277

I don't have the reference material at hand tonight but I am 'assuming' for the moment that the information in the edit is true.

Question one - how does one decide if the episode described is 'important enough' to be included in the article?

Question two - should the information be left in or taken out of the article in the interim?

I would appreciate feedback on this. Wanderer57 (talk) 02:28, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Ok, first this should be at the BLP noticeboard, not here. See WP:BLPN. That said, I don't see any serious concern since the children are mentioned only in passing in this context. I'm not sure that the incident justifies mention at all though. JoshuaZ (talk) 02:36, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't believe this is a BLP concern. Presuming it is merely a content dispute, the first place to discuss whether the detail merits inclusions is probably at Talk:Desi Arnaz. I'd request feedback there, and if there are no objections remove it after several days. If wider opinions are sought, you might look for one of the other dispute resolution avenues, like WP:3O. Since it is not a BLP concern and it is sourced, I would not remove it until consensus to do so is reached (or until it is obvious that there are no objections.) --Moonriddengirl 13:49, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

I think with celebrities there is a tendency for editors to take an "if it's negative, include it" approach. Is this just me being "negative" or do others here find the same tendency? Thanks, Wanderer57 (talk) 13:57, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Yup, that seems to be the way of things - "if it's negative, include it". To my mind, this is tabloid material, unworthy of inclusion in an encyclopedia. The incident received no publicity, that I can find, and is not a notable event in Arnaz' career. Its inclusion seems to serve no other purpose but to paint Arnaz in a negative light. The vieled implications regarding his living daughter strike me as an invasion of her personal privacy. I've removed it. Misplaced Pages is not a tabloid. Let the editor who inserted it defend its relevance and importance to the article. Cleo123 (talk) 07:32, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Jon Courtney (closed)

Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008#Media coverage of Obama's religious background

• Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

we are having a problem with proper use of the word Muslim here. I already requested a 3-O a few weeks ago- the 3-O editor was in over his head and consensus was achieved separate from his efforts. This was mostly due to me not having understood the full BLP policy yet. The more I read it the more I find the text does not meet the standards of: "conservatively with respect for privacy." We use language that leaves open the implication that Obama is currently a muslim. This is done while in the context of explaining how and why Obama is not currently a muslim. Sounds confusing huh? Basically we are using the language from a non-RS source, but not actually citing the source. This is due to the text in question going through an extreme level of edit churn- and one editor who rv-s me every time I attempt a fix. This editor will not accept any text unless it uses the actual word Muslim- any "conservative" edit which uses less-inflammatory language such as "heritage" or even "raised a muslim" is instantly rv-ed. So I feel there is no factual basis for this statement, and even if there was it would violate the "conservative" edit clause of BLP. here are some more reasons or arguments from me:

• the non-RS source was later picked up on by normal RS-sources, which is why we are even bothering with a non-RS source in the first place.
• the non-RS says Obama is a Muslim BECAUSE of heritage and childhood- it makes no claim towards his present life, save the use of the actual term "obama is a muslim..." twice in the entire text
• the RS does not use language as direct as that, in its reporting of the original source.
• even the quote from the non-RS, cited anyways, in an attempt to appease the other editor, was considered unacceptable "Obama had sought to misrepresent his heritage."

so anyways now that I understand BLP better, I removed the word Muslim (citing the BLP policy) and created a new section on talk. The editor rv-ed me without even a descriptive edit summary and has not yet posted on talk. This editor is accused by others (and me) of tendentious editing practices, on several different pages.

By rv-ing without comment the editor violated the BLP policy: "Administrators must obtain consensus before undeleting material that has been deleted citing this policy, and wherever possible, disputed deletions should be discussed with the administrator who deleted the article."

(sorry these are red, I don't know what is wrong. those are the right numbers though) Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008&diff=198378172&oldid=198375146 offending edit

Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008&diff=198141225&oldid=198134793 my BLP edit

Talk:Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008#First sentence.2C Muslim allegations section; Talk:Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008#edit warring; Talk:Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008#Martin Text

outside examples (from pages I don't edit as much) Talk:Barack Obama#NYT article by Jodi Kantor; Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 12#Requested full protection; Talk:Insight (magazine)/Archive 2; Talk:United States journalism scandals#Important change required during page protection

as you can see must of these are on similar subjects (not that different from my edit history lol)

so anyways for all these reasons I don't think the word belongs. 72.0.180.2 (talk) 01:36, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Comment: the problem with the red links is that they're not real diffs.

See Help:Diff for how to clear that up. — Athaenara ✉ 07:51, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

• I think and are the diffs meant. — Athaenara ✉ 22:07, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

OK, this is the diff we're arguing over. Now, saying Martin said Obama is a Muslim is not "use language that leaves open the implication that Obama is currently a muslim." We say Obama is a Christian, we say Martin is "falsely alleging", etc., etc. and MORE etc. Belt, suspenders and duct tape. Now, as 72.0.180.2 concedes, Martin said "Obama is a Muslim" twice. Martin also alleged that Obama was currently "hiding" his Muslim Kenyan relatives, etc. We don't have to mention Martin at all, but if we do accept the Nation 's thesis that he is important we can't misreport what he wrote! 72etc (or maybe it was WNDL42) sought a third opinion on whether we can report accurately what Martin said, and the 3rdO was indeed that we should say what he actually said. 72.0.180.2 says the 3rdO was "over his head". I say 72.0.180.2 is just forum-shopping. Andyvphil (talk) 22:08, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

so if you thought the 3o was so helpful, then how come you left this text as consensus for weeks before starting to rv again? also from WP:words to avoid

"It's often a good idea to avoid terms that appear biased or may be perceived so by some notable group, even if technically they aren't. A more neutral wording is preferable and can be found by careful thought. Often an easy way to do this is to describe rather than label"

considering WP won't use martin because its not RS, and the nation doesn't use that word, its "poorly sourced" which is BLP vio. 72.0.180.2 (talk) 22:23, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

As I wrote in the edit comment on the first diff Athaenara has supplied, "I see the weasel snuck back in." You keep sneaking the weasel version back in, then claim "consensus" if nobody notices and it sticks for awhile. But the last time this was discussed on the talk page was here and the only editors who weighed in apart from you and I were Amatulić, who responded to the request for a third opinion by saying "But a more neutral way to say it is 'An allegation that Obama is a Muslim was made by columnist Andy Martin in a press release in 2004.'" and "If you are going to quote someone, you shouldn't change the quotation. Martin didn't say Obama was a Muslim; he said Obama is a Muslim." johnpseudo weighed in with "I'd go with Andyvphil's version, because it's more straight-forward about the claim that was made. Using vague terms like 'public claims concerning Barack Obama's religion' when Martin really just came out and said he was Muslim is just poor form." And Justmeherenow said "...at the moment, I'm too lazy to try to align text in the article to this standard. Sorry, Andyvphil.", which isn't to clear on the point at issue, but sure doesn't sound like he's endorsing your version. And the editors endorsing your version were... no one. Nada. Zip. Your claim that it is the consensus version is just bogus.

As to the claim that we can't say what Martin said because he said it on a site which is not a RS, I already disposed of that. "Nor is there any question that on Misplaced Pages you can, when a primary source is referred to by a secondary RS consult a primary source for its content:

To the extent that part of an article relies on a primary source, it should:

• only make descriptive claims about the information found in the primary source, the accuracy and applicability of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge, and
• make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims about the information found in the primary source.

Any any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge can see that Martin says Obama is a Muslim. Confirming that he says it doesn't require any analysis, synthesis, interpretation, explanation or evaluation. "Fact: Obama is a Muslim..."-Andy Martin. Doesn't require much education either. All that's left is "reasonable". You're not being reasonable. --Andyvphil, 09:33, 25 February 2008 (UTC)(, again) Andyvphil (talk) 10:53, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Response needed asap

there have been several edit wars and 3rr blocks handed about because of disagreement on this subject. It would be very helpful if you guys could come up with a decision on this topic, or even "wash your hands" of it, simply so the regular editors of that fast-moving page would know where they stand. 72.0.180.2 (talk) 21:12, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

It's a content dispute. The 3rdO you asked for told you you should, if you quote Martin at all, quote Martin accurately, rather than obfuscate. The Admin who blocked you told you that the sentence is question is not a BLP vio. Here, nobody is taking your claims any more seriously. Want a fourth venue? Try an RfC. But the answer is unlikely to change. BLP gives you no extra powers to impose your obfuscatory and, as I've pointed out to you again,, POV-advancing text. Andyvphil (talk) 23:08, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

wow andy, I didn't realize you were a BLP admin, but hey thanks for the help... 72.0.180.2 (talk) 05:18, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Michael Ratner bio--repeated insertion of material below that editor has removed

• Michael Ratner (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

the material under controversy had been removed quite a while ago---despite the editor it keeps going back in--here was one of editors earlier comments

Preceding paragraph reformatted to fit page. Cheers, Lindsay 16:29, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

comment removed:

Controversy

Michael's Brother, Bruce Ratner, heads Forest City Ratner a company which has been accused of having undue influence in New York politicians which has resulted in controversial building projects in Brooklyn, and of eminent Domain Abuse. Critics have accused Michael Ratner of making contributions to politicians that help his brother, to the extent where his offices are used for meetings and as 'drop offs' for campaign contributions including one to Roger Green who was indicted. In short, critics accuse Michael's concern for human rights ends where Ratner family interests begin:

Michael Ratner and his wife, Karen Ranucci, both Greenwich Village residents, have recently made campaign contributions using Forest City Ratner's Brooklyn building as a return address. Ranucci has matched many of her husband's contributions. And Bruce Ratner's girlfriend, Pamela Lipkin, as well as other Ratner family members, have made contributions engineered by an FCR lobbying firm.

"For Bruce and Michael, however, business in Brooklyn comes first. That's why Bruce's company has required gag orders of those selling property for the Atlantic Yards project, thus clamping down on criticism and even requiring sellers to say that Forest City Ratner treated them honorably.

That's why, even though Bruce and Forest City Ratner (FCR) stopped giving political contributions years ago - apparently to dispel suspicion that the donations helped win projects - Michael and his wife Karen Ranucci, the development director of left-wing radio show "Democracy Now," stepped in to fill the breach. Though residents of Greenwich Village, they reliably wrote checks to Brooklyn candidates from the county Democratic machine. Some contributions, according to state records, even had the return address of Forest City Ratner headquarters in Brooklyn. Michael, who apparently has an office there, owns a piece of the Nets, the sports team his brother wants to bring to Brooklyn. The extended Ratner family controls FCR's parent company, Cleveland-based Forest City Enterprises." [http://www.brooklyndowntownstar.com/StoryDisplay.asp?PID=4&NewsStoryID=7470 The Ratner campaign money trail leads to... Michael (& his wife)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Shawhigh (talk • contribs) 16 March 2008 (UTC)

• Hello, Shawhigh. I've tweaked the formatting of your note a bit to make it easier to understand for other editors. I hope you don't mind. A quick glance tells me that the editor who is re-inserting this information claims that circumstances have changed since the above note and that the source now meets the reliability standards. I'm looking a bit more deeply now. --Moonriddengirl 17:12, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

• I agree that this insertion, in spite of its citation now to a newspaper, is inappropriate as it stands per WP:BLP. Among other problems, the title of the reference is inaccurate (the newspaper article is called "Democracy Now? Ratner Plays Hardball When It Counts" not "The Ratner campaign money trail leads to... Michael (& his wife)") and inflammatory. The extensiveness of the material is problematic with regards to Misplaced Pages:BLP#Criticism, which indicates that we are to "e careful not to give a disproportionate amount of space to critics, to avoid the effect of representing a minority view as if it were the majority one" and also notes that "If the criticism represents the views of a tiny minority, it has no place in the article." This particular newspaper article seems to be an editorial. If there are critics (as the insertion claims), rather than "critic", surely there are more reliable sources that can be cited than this editorial? It may be that the viewpoint of this critic (and we see only one) should be represented within the article, but it will definitely have to be pruned and appropriately presented as what it is: the so-far-as-we-know unsubstantiated allegations of one man. Before making that choice, however, we also need to consider the section of WP:V that is titled "Exceptional claims require exceptional sources". Newspapers typically do meet WP:RS requirements. Editorials that do not cite the sources of their allegations? Any other thoughts? --Moonriddengirl 17:30, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Moonriddengirl, you claim a. the allegations are unsubstantiated - this is false - the evidence is clearly supported and verfiable (campaign contributions are easily available via the NYState donor database, where the reporter first found them) - and are referenced on the reporter's blog. the article is not an editorial, it is a, I suppose a side issue a very controversial developer (Michael's brother, Bruce) and his tactics, which have raised red flags with a lot of newspapers and editorial boards in the areas where he operates. the basic facts of the article could be put back into the biography - they are easily verfiable: Michael Ratner and his wife live in Greenwhich village - (manhattan) but make campaign contributions to local politicians in Brooklyn (another borough) where his brother is involved in highly controversial development projects. Further since his wife runs "Democracy Now" - many activists and opponents feel this shield Bruce Ratner from further scrutiny 141.157.248.209 (talk) 13:25, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Hello, 141.157.248.209, and thanks for weighing in. If this individual's tactics have raised red flags with a lot of newspapers, then it seems it should be easy enough to find multiple reliable sources to verify this. If multiple reliable sources are commenting on the same issues, then there will no longer be any question of whether this one source meets WP:V or is problematic with regards to WP:BLP in terms of reliability or weight. --Moonriddengirl 02:55, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Don Murphy

• Don Murphy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• user Runabrat (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• user Curiosity Inc. (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

I recently overhauled the article for Don Murphy, and the work has been undone by at least two editors. One editor says in his edit summary, "Page reverted back to the Misplaced Pages and Don Murphy approved version." Can people who are more familiar with WP:BLP please review the article and see if the expansions I made are unacceptable? RTFA (talk) 00:24, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Comment: Runabrat has been blocked. — Athaenara ✉ 08:14, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Curiosity Inc. has also been blocked. — Athaenara ✉ 08:25, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Banning SPA RTFA from Don Murphy. Thanks, SqueakBox 22:44, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Mark D. Siljander

• Mark D. Siljander (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Bradley Schlozman (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

This article seems to have been getting somewhat unbalanced after Siljander's indictment in January about his connection to fund-raising for an Islamic charitable organization that was also allegedly a front to raise money for terrorism. Some recent edits seem to be going out of the way to defend Siljander and make defamatory statements about the US Attorney responsible for the indictment, Bradley Schlozman. I'd appreciate some editors more adept at this to lend a hand. older ≠ wiser 02:10, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I understand your point and I am responsible for some of the edits. The original edits were done from articles based on statements later withdrawn.

Much stronger statements of prosecutorial misconduct could be made but not adequately supported. As acceptable sources are only statements from goverment prosecutors, even those facing investigations themselves, as in this case, Misplaced Pages is used as a tool of propaganda and improperly influencing the justice system.

This site: http://www.truthinjustice.org/p-pmisconduct.htm is a good indication of the type of things we are dealing with. Misplaced Pages is used, due to its popularity, as a way of "getting the word out", even if that word is unsupportable.

In this case, how can a former congressman be indicted for "terrorism" and still receive support from, not only the SG/UN but former Secretary of State Baker and Attorney General Ed Meese, all very conservative?

If you don't detect a serious smell, then perhaps Misplaced Pages is totally open to misuse as a form of propaganda. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gpduf (talk • contribs) 20:46, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Rob Grill

• Rob Grill (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

We have a dispute in a short bio for 70s musician Rob Grill, who in 2007 was arrested for illegally obtaining prescription painkillers, eventually going into drug treatment possibly to avoid jail time. This is sourced to two Orlando Sentinel articles that are only partially available online.

• Hudak, Stephen (2007-06-05). "Singer arrested on drug charges" (fee required). Orlando Sentinel. Orlando, Florida: Tribune Company. incomplete
  • Hudak, Stephen. "Rob Grill - 'Grass Roots' singer arrested on drug charges". Marty Angelo Ministries. Retrieved 2008-02-23. Full text of Orlando Sentinel article, on website of Grill's former manager.
• Comas, Martin E. (2007-07-31). "Drug program may save singer from jail" (fee required). Orlando Sentinel. topix. Excerpt from article not available online. Not used in the article.
  • Comas, Martin E. "Drug program may save 'Grass Roots' singer from jail". Marty Angelo Ministries. Retrieved 2008-03-17. Full text.

The plea agreement is not used in the article since sourcing is was sub-optimal, and to keep this part of the bio short. Leaving it out also helps minimize humiliation of the subject, tho this reference does demonstrate the non-trivial nature of the charge, and that the drug problem is being treated (one way or another) as a serious issue.

Concerns are raised about undue weight, and humiliation of the subject. A pair of anon editors (apparently the same editor as both are SPAs from Naples, FL using similar edit summaries) edit warred to keep this information out (grounds: "defamatory", "inappropriate"). A third editor now argues that WP:BLP recommends it be left out for reasons of "doubt", which is established by the edit war; this editor removes this information accordingly. WP:3O passes this dispute on to this noticeboard.

Some arguments for and against including this information can be found on Talk:Rob Grill. An anon editor was blocked for 24 hours for 3RR violation, but it can be guessed that this editor will resume deleting this information from the article if it is there when their block expires. It would be helpful to establish whether this information is worth including, less it be automatically removed, with windy procedural discussions repeating at each iteration.

I am concerned that the current rationale on Talk:Rob Grill for omitting this information on "doubt" means that anyone can have a BLP sanitized by aggressively deleting unwanted information, edit warring as needed to keep it out, thus establishing a precedent of "doubt" requiring unwanted information to be declared "better left out". / edg ☺ ☭ 13:48, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Feedback request

Re the issue represented by this diff:

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Rob_Grill&diff=next&oldid=198764025

I removed the information from the article as I thought it was not sufficiently important to include.

There was discussion between editor edg and myself, which got into procedural issues as well as the substance of the matter (discussion is at Talk:Rob Grill).

A third opinion was requested; the opinion given was to raise the issue on this page.

It was raised here in the above section on 17 March 2008 but to date there has been no feedback. Please can we have some feedback from people experienced in BLP issues. Thanks. Wanderer57 (talk) 18:43, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps this article should be simply deleted as not sufficiently important, a fan/promo page squatting on Misplaced Pages's servers but not worth maintaining. Would anyone recommend WP:AFD for this article? / edg ☺ ☭ 22:53, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

The subject's notability is probably too great for AfD to be a productive forum for dealing with this dispute. — Athaenara ✉ 08:39, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I think edg is really out of line here. A cursory review of the sources provided indicates that this matter directly relates to a medical condition. Medical records fall under Misplaced Pages's presumption in favor of privacy. This individual appears to have left public life long ago. Details regarding his injury and medical records should be treated with the utmost discretion and sensitivity.

I'm even more concerned that when edg doesn't get the answer he wants, his next suggestion is to have the article deleted "as not sufficiently important, a fan/promo page squatting on Misplaced Pages's servers but not worth maintaining." Seems to me that this user may have a COI of some sort regarding the article's subject. I think his or her contributions warrant monitoring. Cleo123 (talk) 08:24, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for replying. This is very helpful. / edg ☺ ☭ 08:49, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Geoffrey Edelsten

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Geoffrey Edelsten (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - an article about a medical practitioner who, among other things, served time for ordering an assault. An apparent single purpose account is trying to remove some negative material from the article - it could be the person in question. Some of the negative material cites material that might be more primary than third-party sources. Also, I'm concerned about the person's notability. Andjam (talk) 11:32, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Horror show, deleted and stubbed - please watchlist for further trouble.--Doc 10:34, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

OH, FGS. Do a google search before that sort of thing, please. Mentioning the case wasn't nearly as problematic as all that, the man's highly notable for the assault conviction, one of the most major cases in Australia in the 1980s. Some of the article was sourced to court records, but the vast majority of it was sourced to his own website. Sheesh. Relata refero (talk) 10:46, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

The deletion led to the loss of one of the few reliable secondary sources there, an article from the Sydney Morning Herald mentioning the legal issues (). I'll restore the ref. MastCell  22:13, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Was a valid deletion, though, for all that. An overwhelmingly negative and very poorly sourced article. Interesting guy, by the sound of it. Guy (Help!) 20:01, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

There are Two entries about Edelsten currently on this noticeboard. To avoid confusion, please add any further comments to the Edelsten entry below. EdJohnston (talk) 17:26, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Andrea Spinks

→ See also: Misplaced Pages:Redirects for discussion/Log/2008 March 20#Andrea Spinks → Pixie (porn star).

This was a page that redirected to an article on a particular porn star's stage name, and is supposedly her real name. We now have an editor, claiming to be the original author of both pages, seeking to remove the references to the actress's real name, including blanking the redirect. Claims are that the actress wants privacy and does not want the links between the two names to reamin floating around the net. So definite BLP concerns on the redirect and the stage-name page.

I have placed the redirect up for a procedural RFD. I have not !voted myself on the removal because I really do not know what is the proper path forward. Any additional opinions in either direction from people better versed in BLP matters would be greatly appreciated. - TexasAndroid (talk) 12:53, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

• There are 10,500 Web pages (including some purporting to be her "home page") that identify "Pixie" and Andrea Sparks to be one and the same. This is not analogous to a person who uses a stage name and tries to hide his/her real name - both were used to promote a product. Let's consider the motivation here: she has decided to walk away from her very public past and wants to erase it somehow. So, how is the redirect a violation of her privacy? It would be used only as a search term by someone who already knew her real name in the first place. Now, if someone wishes to try to expunge her from Misplaced Pages, I'd urge AfD for the Pixie article, but with solid Misplaced Pages grounds as "privacy" is not valid as she gave it up years ago. The disclosure of her home or current work address, telephone, etc., for example, would be a valid BLP concern, but not a redirect to an article to her past, public, life. B.Wind (talk) 23:23, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

TMZ.com

Could I get a quick read on the reliability of TMZ.com as a source for BLPs? A user has edit-warred to remove it from an article, calling it a "gossip rag". The site is owned by AOL/Time Warner and according to this article in USA Today, it's editorially vetted and researched for accuracy. It's presently used as a source in hundreds of Misplaced Pages articles. Nesodak (talk) 01:22, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Nope, that article says the owner of TMZ claims its vetted, etc. We specifically try and avoid tabloid sources for anything in the least contentious, so in this case I'm afraid the user in question has policy squarely on his side. Relata refero (talk) 11:32, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

See also profiles in Time and Newsweek. Nesodak (talk) 15:33, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

TMZ may be tabloidy but so are other media. Reliability of a source is tied to the content being sourced - "exceptional claims require exceptional sources". If the content is not terribly controversial it may not be an issue; if someone is crying foul on it based on it being TMZ alone that seems wonky but if they deem that the source isn't good enough for a particular claim a secondary source would be wise. Benjiboi 11:26, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Thomas Moorcroft (closed)

Dr. E. Fuller Torrey

The article contains quotes attributed to "MindFreedom". If you go to that site, you will see that they are anti Dr. Torrey, and that is reflected in their quotes and their edits. MindFreedom is the citation for the individual who runs the anti Torrey site. The fact they said it on their site, doesn't mean it should become part of the wikipedia record. thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.201.151.119 (talk • contribs) 04:31, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Michael Alig

• Michael Alig (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - Fascinating person who likely earned a lot of scorn from those he wronged in the nightclub scene and perhaps was generally obnoxious - which helped build his career. He was even immortalized in a book which begat a documentary which begat a feature film (see Party Monster). However tabloidy items have been multiplying in the article with less than stellar sources, IMHO, and someone with a good broom would be not only entertained but appreciated for helping clean out some of the worst items. // Benjiboi 11:17, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Sun Myung Moon

Could someone check out this article? About half of it is taken up by a "Criticism and controversy" section. For instance in the first part of the article it says he founded the Washington Times, and then in the criticism section it says he was criticised for founding the Washington Times. Redddogg (talk) 16:02, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Silvia Lancome & McTools

There is a user, User:McTools that has some sort of agenda trying to repeatedly post Silvia Lancome's "birthname" and citing it to IMDB. The page is currently locked due to the edit war but he keeps on posting her "real name" in the discussion page of the article in order to prove that Ms. Lancome is not Afghan despite multiple warnings and removals. As IMDB biographies are not reliable and being named as a porn star is potentially both libelous and may violate the presumption of privacy per WP:BLP, what can be done? He's also been accused of being a sockpuppet during the edit war but I haven't been able to evaluate that accusation. Vinh1313 (talk) 19:59, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Sean Hannity & Hal Turner

• Sean Hannity (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Hal Turner (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Could someone with BLP expertise take a look at the recent history on the above two articles? I originally noticed the traffic on these articles when they came up high on Wikirage...once I checked them out, it looks like campaign is going on in the two articles to link Hannity, a prominent media figure, to Turner, an avowed white supremacist. I don't know that much about the background, and some sources are being given, but I'm not sure how well the sources can be trusted. I think caution is warranted here given Hannity's apparent high profile in television and radio media in the U.S. Nesodak (talk) 22:33, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I have Turner's article on watchlist. I'm RWIing. Sceptre 22:35, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

OK, I did my best to reword the Sean Hannity claims in a neutral way, included the statements from the other side, and integrated into the main article (as opposed to being in a stand-alone "Controversy" section). Would appreciate any BLP-savvy folks to check my work. Nesodak (talk) 16:49, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

The Hannity article seems to be undergoing a major dispute. One person wants to quote critics in the first paragraph, seemingly to protect impressionable WP readers from this dangerous right-wing guy. Steve Dufour (talk) 12:43, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, the brief truce at Sean Hannity has fallen apart and people are back to edit-warring. I'm wondering if protection is going to be required. Nesodak (talk) 14:58, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Comment from uninvolved user Bear in mind that the outcome doesn't have to be the same in these 2 casec. If Hal Turner has claimed he had a good relationship with Sean Hannity (from what I can tell he has) then that may be noteable enough to include in the Hal Turner article, particularly if the claim has received sufficient prominence that Sean Hannity has responded to the claims. However there is probably no justification to include the claims in the Sean Hannity article if it was only a relatively minor issue in relation to Seah Hannity, which it may be if the claims only received coverage in 2 relatively lesser known sources Nil Einne (talk) 15:05, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

My involvement started as "an uninvolved user" also...I totally agree with you that a case can certainly made for that. I just wish people would discuss on the talk page rather than revert warring. The whole thing is now officially annoying so far as I am concerned, think I'll wash my hands of it. Anyone else want an at-bat? Nesodak (talk) 15:12, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Prabir Ghosh

• Prabir Ghosh (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Can some editors take a look at this article, which has been a target of edit-warring between IPs and SPAs for months, and repeated addition of poorly sourced/unsourced allegations of fraud, sexual harrasment etc against the subject ? The latest allegations (diff) are sourced to emails about the subject on the Mukto Mona website (an organization that bills itself as an "internet congregation of free=thinkers") and a yahoo group . Seven month back similar allegations and their refutation were sourced to the talk page of the article itself ! (see links deleted in this diff and problematic version of talk page) Both the article page history and the talk page history evidence long term and persistent BLP violations.
More eyes on the article, and page semi-protection would be appreciated. Some SPAs may need to be warned/blocked/banned too. Abecedare (talk) 05:51, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Aga Khan IV

User Venkyhyundai keeps inserting completely unsourced and libellous info on the subject under Criticism and Some Critics Say

Homosexuality

Otto4711 (talk · contribs) has been repeatedly reverting my removal of an actor's sexual orientation from Peter Stickles. I have been contacted directly by the subject of this article via unblock-en-l@lists.wikimedia.org asking that this information be removed. There's no debate as to the factual accuracy of the information but there is significant debate as to the relevance of the information. I do not believe this relevance has been established and so I removed it as per WP:RS, WP:V, WP:NOT (not trivia) and WP:BLP (privacy). Despite my request that this information not be readded, Otto4711 has continued to readd this information. I have expressed on Talk:Peter Stickles that I would support readding the information if and only if we have a reliable source indicating that this is anything other than trivia. No such has been provided. Although I am an admin, I would like at least a second opinion on whether a person's sexual orientation should be included in an article given that the subject of the article does not wish it to be there. It is a fact that the subject has disclosed his sexual orientation and it is a fact that he has expressed a desire to have this removed from his article. It is a matter of opinion whether or not Otto4711 has established the notability of this information, though I firmly believe he has not. --Yamla (talk) 19:42, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

• The section needs to be reworded - "openly gay" is loaded and unnecessary. But he has talked about his sexuality in a public interview, and if it relates to the content and selection of the films he's participated in, I would find it hard to argue that it's inappropriate to include. I mean, he's a professional actor starring in a gay-themed television series that is produced and aired on a network specifically targeting gay and lesbian audiences. If that doesn't make his sexuality relevant, what would? FCYTravis (talk) 19:47, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
• "Openly gay" is pretty standard language when discussing people who are, well, openly gay. As for relevance, consider this section of the interview that was used as a source for the section:

AfterElton: Do you have concerns about being typecast as an out gay actor? Peter Stickles: Of course I have — absolutely. The producers of The Lair took me aside and we had a meeting about whether or not I was going to be an "out" gay actor and whether they were going to be able to market me. But they wanted me to take it very seriously, because it's a very big decision and I had to stop and think about it. Because even though it sucks, and it shouldn't matter, it does matter. So yeah, I had to really think about it — not so much in terms of being a horror movie actor, because if I could do horror movies for the rest of my life I'd die a happy man. But being pigeonholed as a gay film actor is kind of weird for me.

Along with the quote from another interview which is linked on the article's talk page:

"A lot of times, it's not good, and it hurts," Stickles says of his decision not to remain in the closet in order to build a mainstream career. "A lot of time, people can't watch a gay guy playing a straight role. I was reading an article about Rupert Everett, about how his career is not happening, that won't hire him for the lead because he's gay. It's unfortunate, and I do understand how people can have a problem with that, but in the same respect, I just want to be publicly out anyway, because in ten years it will all be different. "It's nice to have a little bit of success with a very small group of people. I live in Chelsea, which is the gayest neighborhood in the world, and people recognize me, but there will have to be a time when I can show that I can be more versatile."

This clearly establishes the relevance of the information. Otto4711 (talk) 19:58, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to think we're past the point when we have to say "openly." Just say gay. FCYTravis (talk) 20:07, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

• That's fine, I don't really care whether it says "gay" or "openly gay." Otto4711 (talk) 20:26, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

It is not at all clear to me that an actor's sexuality is relevant to the roles they choose. Many straight actors have taken roles where their characters are homosexual and vice versa. Anyway, the key point here is that the subject of the article requested the removal of this content as he personally did not think it relevant. He could be wrong and if the consensus here is that the information should be added, I would be happy to revert my removal and unprotect the page. Note that the subject of the article has claimed he has been misquoted in the interviews but this does not meet our requirements under WP:RS. Once again, if people believe this actor's sexuality is relevant under WP:NOT and WP:BLP then it should be there. My concerns are that it does not meet the criteria outlined by those policies. --Yamla (talk) 19:53, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't quite know what WP:NOT has to do with it. A person's sexuality is definitely not "trivia."

He has chosen to take roles in a gay-themed TV show on a gay-themed network, and do an interview with an entertainment news site run by a different gay-themed network, in which he discusses his sexuality.

But there is definitely a problem in that having a whole long paragraph about it is undue weight on that aspect of his life, given that the rest of the article is two sentences about his roles. FCYTravis (talk) 20:04, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I think it is relevant and should be there. On the other hand, we removed (after much debate) all mention of Jay Brannan's sexuality from his article, because of his preference. Aleta 20:09, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

• First, I don't believe for a second that the person claiming to be Peter Stickles really is Peter Stickles. Email me a jpg of his drivers license and maybe then I will. Second, this claim that he's been misquoted is ludicrous. He was asked by AfterElton "Are you gay yourself?" and his one-word answer was "Yes." What, he really said "no" and the reporter wrote it down wrong? Pfft. Third, even if we are to believe that not only did the AfterElton interviewer somehow "misquote" his one-word answer or the two paragraphs about his decision to come out, and if we are to believe that the other interview quoted here is somehow fabricated or "misquoted," that still leaves the question of the podcast (episode 91) recorded in his own voice in which he speaks extensively of being gay. Is he suggesting that the voice recording is being "misquoted" too? Not to mention that his sexuality was part of why he was cast in the part that he was in Shortbus. I'm sorry if Peter Stickles, if it is Peter Stickles, is having some second thoughts about deciding to come out. I'm sorry if he feels bad about having his sexuality mentioned in his Misplaced Pages aricle. I wrote the article and it certainly was not and is not my intention to cause him distress by writing it. But the information on his sexuality is factual, verifiable and relevant and his personal wishes should not dictate the content of the article. Otto4711 (talk) 20:39, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I, through unblock-en-l, have confirmed that this was indeed Peter Stickles. --Yamla (talk) 21:07, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Outside view: I think his sexuality is relevant exactly for the reasons he cites in the interview, viz., it may influence the roles he is offered and how the audience views him. Therefore, it should be mentioned in the article, but we have to careful how we phrase it. Starting the article with " Peter Sticles is a gay American actor from New York" is clearly unacceptable; adding a whole paragraph on the issue would be undue too. Perhaps we can add a sentence along the lines, "Sticles has expressed concern that his being gay may lead to him being pigeonholed as a gay actor." (may need rephrasing), which not only says that he is gay but also explains how it affects him professionally. Abecedare (talk) 20:49, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

The same discussion has taken place in relation to Simon Amstell. Read the 'Personal Life' to see an example of how this could be worded. I don't like articles that say "John Doe is gay" but mentioning why it's notable is a good idea if a person's orientation is included. IMHO, it seems notable for the subject we're discussing. AgnosticPreachersKid (talk) 20:56, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree completely with User:Abecedare, and think that a small discussion of it would be more than appropriate. I do understand where the subject of the bio is coming from, and I sympathise, and we need to present information in an acceptable manner, but we shouldn't leave out something if it seems relevant to the roles he's being offered or choosing. Relata refero (talk) 10:37, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Abecedare's idea seems to be pointing the way forward, in my view. Orderinchaos 19:52, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

• Is it snowing yet? Otto4711 (talk) 12:41, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it is indeed. I will immediately unprotect the page. Thank you, Otto4711, for keeping your cool and working within Misplaced Pages's framework for resolving this matter. I am not going to revert my removal of your content because the consensus seems to me to be that it was too long in the context of the article, but I will not revert your readdition of the information on his sexuality, appropriately cited (as your additions generally were) and I apologise for making you jump through these hoops. I hope you understand that I felt I needed to err on the side of caution. --Yamla (talk) 15:10, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Section "Entertainers with Crip affiliation" on the article Crips

• Crips (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
  

I'm concerned about it if we really need to have this section. I don't see no relevance to the article, the section is cited with mostly no-reliable sources. I removed it but some user claims it should be included because "it has been since 2006" diff.
A category "clasifiying" these people was also deleted. See CfD. Tasc0 04:16, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Some help would be appreciated. Tasc0 22:10, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

That's a horrible section, chock-full of BLP violations. We've got gang affiliations being sourced to Tripod sites, freely-editable sites like IMDB, and so forth. I've removed it and if anyone puts it back I will take it out again. *** Crotalus *** 13:16, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the support. I also removed the "same" section in the article Bloods. You may want to have it on your watchlist. Tasc0 21:25, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Daniel Brandt (redirect only) on DRV

See Misplaced Pages:Deletion review/Log/2008 March 24. -- Ned Scott 06:49, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

There's no need to create another section. A simple update would be sufficient, even unnecessary, as those originally interested and monitoring this noticeboard will have followed the links to the DRV themselves. Relata refero (talk) 10:34, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Geoffrey Edelsten - Serious BLP, Libel, Coatrack Issues.

There has been heated discussion on the article of Geoffrey Edelsten.

The article has the following serious policy issues. WP:COAT - Coatrack, WP:LIBEL - Defamation, WP:BLP - Biographies of Living Persons, WP:NOT - What Misplaced Pages is Not, WP:HARM - Avoiding Harm.

Negative comments have been removed consistently and then added back by aggressive users. The administrator Doc glasgow has already deleted the comments in question but as mentioned, they continually come back by this selection of users.

Please block users who are performing vandalism and protect this article. It is probably best for deletion. --Wikifactsright (talk) 13:38, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Stop forum shopping. It's at WP:ANI#Serious and Continuous Misplaced Pages Policy Breach of BLP and Other Policy Amounting to Vandalism and on the talk page of a user and at talk:Geoffrey Edelsten. You aren't receiving the answers you wanted elsewhere, and I highly doubt that continued pestering of others and edit warring will do much good. seicer | talk | contribs 13:50, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

All statements at Geoffrey Edelsten are appropriately referenced from independent, third-party sources. Wikifactsright wants to totally bias the article so that it is just a rosy, feel-good story. WWGB (talk) 14:14, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree that editors in the ANI thread have made a pretty good case for the current form of the article, and have shown that the negative information is in proportion. EdJohnston (talk) 14:19, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

The information seems to be in proportion. The user who reported it here has been blocked for 3RR over the article and appears to be a single-purpose account. Orderinchaos 19:50, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Ben Stevens again

The editor claiming to be Ben Stevens is back removing stuff from his article. Stephens is apparently a Alaska state politician under an FBI investigation. Previously I reported this here a month or so back, and the article was stubbed for careful rebuilding. This time User:Bostonb5 has removed an unsourced section about Stevens' personal life, a link to Stevens' web page (with the edit description of the link as being out of date), and most importantly, an apparently well sourced section that had been restored about the FBI probe. This last section needs close scrutiny before it is re-added. but if the sources do hold up, then IMHO it should remain, reguardless of the wishes of the article's subject. But I'm not a great judge of sourcing and BLP, so here I am asking for assistance in dealing with this situation. - TexasAndroid (talk) 14:33, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I've reviewed the "Alaska fishing rights" section and it is validly sourced. I have removed the section listing the names of his wife and children as it is not clear they are public figures. If Mr. Stevens has further concerns I think he needs to take them up with the WMF. Jfire (talk) 23:19, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

User:Bostonb5 has left a comment on my talk page. Jfire (talk) 23:23, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Erik Prince

There is a potentially defamatory statement in the article, sourced to John Edwards. See http://en.wikipedia.org/Erik_Prince#Philanthropy_and_political_donations The offending material was removed from the Erik Prince article by someone else, but it has since been reverted by another user.--Davidwiz (talk) 18:39, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't see the problem here. This is a noteworthy criticism by a major U.S. political figure. In fact, Edwards is far better known than Prince himself is. If we were citing bloggers or random local opinion columnists, then there would be a problem. But as long as this statement is properly attributed and doesn't overwhelm the rest of the article (per WP:UNDUE), then it should be fine. *** Crotalus *** 00:58, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Daniel Pipes - coatrack issues

The article on Daniel Pipes is dominated by two subjects: Pipes' views on various issues ("Views and positions" section) and other people's views on Pipes ("Praise, criticism and controversy" section). Both these sections comprise the bulk of the article, each of them easily outweighing the section with biographical information, so that right now the article is not biography, but a collection of quotes, either from Pipes or about Pipes. One section ("Campus Watch") is not even about Pipes, but about a certain project started by a think tank that Pipes runs. The article thus suffers from serious WP:COAT problems, which probably put it in violation of WP:BLP as well. The easiest solution would be to: 1. Cut sections "Views and positions" and "Praise, criticism and controversy" to only those views held by Pipes and comments about Pipes that clearly add to his notability. 2. Remove section on Campus Watch as irrelevant to Pipes' biography.

Beit Or 21:25, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

The "think tank" in question, according to reliable sources, consists of Pipes and one other full-time researcher. Basically, the think tank and Pipes are interchangeable, and the think tank is actually only notable as a conveyor for Pipes' views. That being said, it certainly is the case that some trimming of views is possible in that article. I note, however, far from being a BLP vio, some of the more frank reviews of Pipes' work by academics are actually not in there. Relata refero (talk) 14:41, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Mary DeMoss

• Mary DeMoss (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - Apparently this individual has recently left the Church of Scientology and its intelligence agency, the Office of Special Affairs. This per a post by Mark Bunker at YouTube and a message board post at the website enturbulation.org. As this is a significant development both for Scientology and for this individual, editors should keep a close eye on this article, to make sure that new info is sourced to WP:RS/WP:V sources. Anon-IPs have already attempted to add this new info in, sourced only to the YouTube post and/or the message board post. // Cirt (talk) 22:06, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
  • The notability of this article subject is extremely questionable. Newyorkbrad (talk) 01:09, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
    • Update: After a request I put in at WP:RFPP, the article was put under semi-protect - this should address the issue of new editors/IPs adding unsourced info to the article, for the time being. (My thanks to Luna Santin (talk · contribs) for responding to my request at WP:RFPP). Cirt (talk) 07:12, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Aqsa Parvez

Aqsa Parvez (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - Blatant violations of privacy (of family, not of subject herself) added twice. Please watchlist and delete/oversight inappropriate edits if possible. Andjam (talk) 05:22, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Orl Unho

Orl Unho (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - There is no evidence that this person exists. The one "source" is a YouTube video. There is also a WikiQuote page with an unsourced quote. // ivan (talk) 06:05, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

• Prodded. No reliable sources found during a Google search, just some more blogs, mirrors, and Youtube crap. *** Crotalus *** 13:11, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Papoose (rapper)

Repeatedly reverted edits are based on either the editor's interpretation of songs or postings to internet forums that interpret the songs. In either event, the interpretations make claims about a shooting and an alleged assault. - Mdsummermsw (talk) 13:46, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Full names and birthdates?

Re Kathy Hilton#Family

Should this article include full names and birthdates of "non-notable" family members?

I don't think so but there seems to be a general tendency to put every celebrity-related thing we can find into Misplaced Pages, whether or not it is significant.

I would appreciate both an answer to my specific question, and comments on the "general tendency" I sense. Thanks, Wanderer57 (talk) 21:03, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I believe this question is addressed by Misplaced Pages:Blp#Privacy_of_personal_information. We have no articles on the sons, so I suggest including only the year of birth for them. The birthdays of the two famous daughters may already be widely included in secondary sources. If that's the case, then they may be kept, but if not, they too should be reduced to just the year of birth. EdJohnston (talk) 18:19, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I know we don't have an article on Barron Nicholas, and I'd suggest that while he's not sufficiently notable to rate an article, he is enough of a public figure due to his DUI arrest that including his birthdate, or maybe just birth year, is not particularly intrusive. 18:45, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I pulled the birthdates (leaving the year) for the two we don't have articles on, and undid the redlinks as well. A DUI arrest does not make someone a public figure. FCYTravis (talk) 03:11, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Craig Cheffins

Craig Cheffins (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) A student newspaper is being used as the sole source to spread a story about Cheffins conduct as a teacher (allegedly neglecting his teaching duties). Cheffins is notable as a politician, not a teacher, and I feel this is irrelevant, unencyclopedic, and poorly sourced. IMO, few student newspapers are reliable, particularly on matters of fellow students. --Rob (talk) 21:56, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Student newspapers are definitely reliable sources. They are generally well-written publications of record for their universities, have established policies for fact-checking and sourcing, and most importantly, take responsibility for what they publish. A lot of important journalism is done by students at college papers.

However, I think the issue here is undue weight - as you said, he's really only encyclopedic for his (brief) career as a politician, and a minor dust-up at a university does not seem to me to be relevant to his political career. FCYTravis (talk) 06:13, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Lobster Boy

• Lobster Boy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

This disturbs me a little. The tone is too weird for Misplaced Pages, and it's been tagged as inappropriate for months. I'm too busy with other stuff to do a cleanup, but I would be grateful if somebody else could at least put it on his watchlist, if not clean it up right now. --Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The 05:59, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I believe this article should be renamed/moved to Lobster Man forthwith. Another Misplaced Pages subject, Grady Stiles, has been known far and wide as "Lobster Boy" for years. Google gives us 28,600 hits for "Lobster Boy" without the word Carnegie; that would be Grady. Under the article's current name, we risk confusing young knowledge seekers. --CliffC (talk) 16:37, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Unsourced criticism of John Aravosis at Americablog

There have been several recent edits with unsourced criticisms of blog founder John Aravosis at Americablog. With multiple editors posting negative information, and interspersed less POV edits, it is hard to see how far back to revert without losing possible good edits. See , , , . This article needs someone familiar with its subject and with Aravosis to straignten out whether he is a Republican or Democrat, let alone the other BLP issues. Edison (talk) 19:36, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Did some cleanup, issues seem resolved for the time being. Edison (talk) 21:07, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Matt Sanchez

Post-arbitration BLP article is under arbitration probation and full protection. Seeking independent review for a proposed job title update.

Currently the article calls Mr. Sanchez an embedded blogger. The proposed change would be embedded journalist, to be substaniated by a citation to the Weekly Standard. Five separate sources support the proposed change, also including humanevents.com and nationalreview.com.

No editor has produced a citation opposing the change, but the proposal has not received unambiguous support. Reelm objected when the first two citations were offered and has not commented after three more citations were supplied. A brand new account called Dale720240 showed up today and argued against a different warning that had not been proposed. An odd thing is that this is the account's only post and the article talk page is semiprotected. Multiple sitebans have been implemented in connection with this article, so it is likely that a banned editor created that account and waited four days for the specific purpose of complaining.

Talk:Matt_Sanchez#Change_embedded_blogger_to_embedded_journalist

In compliance with the article probation I ask for an uninvolved editor to weigh the merits of this proposal. Yes, I'm posting this thread just to ask whether we can change one word blogger to journalist. Durova 19:39, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Response requested. Durova 02:51, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Use of property ownership records as source to support residency

A web site that provides property records in New Jersey has been used as a source to document residence of notables in a number of communities -- for Missy Elliott in Kinnelon, New Jersey and for John Madden in Montville, New Jersey -- which raises a few questions.

The first question is the validity of the source. Does the fact that there is someone named John madden who owns property in Montville satisfactorily demonstrate that this is the same person named in the article? For Missy Elliott, the circumstantial evidence is a bit stronger, with the name on the record matching her given name and the owner's address near her hometown in Virginia. Should this be used as a source on this basis?

The bigger question is the propriety of a source that provides an individual's home address, and not just their city of residence, which raises privacy concerns. While I am baffled as to why people who almost certainly have an unlisted number not doing anything to protect this information (say by using a corporation or trust to own the property), this information is in the public record. Is there a privacy issue with this information? Alansohn (talk) 20:46, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Unless the residence is very well-known, I don't see any good reason to provide residential addresses. That sounds like an appalling privacy issue to me. The sort of exception I'm thinking of might be, for example, the Neverland Ranch. I wouldn't have any problem with property records being used in that sort of article, where the property itself is well-known.TJRC (talk) 20:59, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

• I'm not happy with the use of the source, but why would this be any worse than using a phone book entry as a reference? Alansohn (talk) 21:02, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

The problem is that this is speculative synthesis. The fact that someone owns a property somewhere does not necessarily mean they live in that location. They could have bought the home as an investment, or for a friend, or for any number of other reasons. Ownership isn't equivalent to residency. FCYTravis (talk) 21:11, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

As a top rated website, we would be putting into widespread circulation information that otherwise would be a bit less prominent. We don't publish the birthdates of less notable people, and we do not publish the (listed) phone numbers or certain other information that could be found in other databases. Then, too we are extremely likely to publish as the street address of a celebrity the actual address of the celebrity's elderly relative for whom he bought a home, or the address of someone else with the same name. If the person is the target of kooks or assassins, this could lead to serious harm. Even if the address is accurate, it is unlikely to be relevant and might aid stalkers. This smacks of original research if it comes from someone's database rather than a published source. Edison (talk) 21:15, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Two words: Rebecca. Schaeffer.. TJRC (talk) 22:19, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Property records cannot be used as per BLP " Do not use, for example, public records that include personal details — such as date of birth, home value, traffic citations, vehicle registrations, and home or business addresses — or trial transcripts and other court records or public documents, unless a reliable secondary source has already cited them. ".Momento (talk) 04:14, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Dawn Wells (again)

• Dawn Wells (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Proxy User seems rather obsessed with somehow connecting a minor ex-Gilligan's Island actress with marijuana use, to the point of creating an entire section heading entitled "Marijuana incidents" and repeatedly reinserting uncorroborated, recanted claims. I have reverted to last good and protected; more eyes and a cluebat would be handy. FCYTravis (talk) 03:35, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Why use full protection, instead of a blocking the offending user (and maybe semi-protect to stop socks). No other user seems to be causing a problem in that article, so why stop others from editing. --Rob (talk) 04:45, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Avigdor Liberman

• Avigdor Liberman (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - brief explanation can be found here - related diff is the following and can be found at the bottom of the explanation also.
• p.s. editors have collaborated on tag-team reverts though Nickhh has claimed his "Pedro, your turn next if he does it again ;}"' suggestion (Pedro Gonnet responded by reverting) was meant as a joke.// Jaakobou 13:44, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

The page is protected, you've made an editprotected request, its been mentioned at WP:AE and WP:AN; how many more eyes do you want on it? Relata refero (talk) 14:35, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

AE was a 3RR report by Pedro Gonnet, I'm not aware of an AN report but I'll give it a look.

On topic, we can't have articles locked with BLP violations. Jaakobou 16:09, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Is there any noticeboard you haven't taken this to yet? Jaakobou, we really do have a policy about consensus here, and it's just as much policy as the other ones. You can't go around removing whole sections of sourced material with a frankly incomprehensible rationale, even if you do think it's based on WP:BLP. <eleland/talkedits> 16:39, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Uninvolved admins may give a look at the section and decide on their own if there's a BLP violation. Consensus, btw, involves the general active members of discussion, not the 3-man clique who joined the discussion with a preconception on how the page should look. Jaakobou 17:28, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Don Murphy (2)

Hello, I am trying to expand the article Don Murphy with verifiable information from reliable sources. This is my revision, and I was wondering if any interested editors experienced with WP:BLP would like to join discussion at Talk:Don Murphy to evaluate all aspects of my revision and determine how to best describe Don Murphy's personal life and professional career as significantly reported by published, third-party sources. RTFA (talk) 17:48, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

You are a SPA account designed to attack Don Murphy and draw the Foundation into unpleasantness. It was your sloppy revision which led to the revert war and the afd. The fact that you chose a wholesale reversion of the article after all that happened confirms it. You have only edited with this one article and your obsession with this individual alarms me greatly.TheUnknownCitizen (talk) 21:07, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

The Don Murphy article is marked with a padlock symbol. Isn't it usual for locked articles to carry a note re why they are locked? Thanks. Wanderer57 (talk) 22:36, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I have proposed a topic ban to restrict RTFA from Don Murphy. Interested parties can comment here.--Doc 22:40, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Eric Lerner

ScienceApologist is engaging in blatant WP:BLP violations on Eric Lerner (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), starting with an attempt to make a controversial claim concerning him sourced only to a political attack website , and continuing with the use of original research for the purpose of criticizing Eric Lerner's work justified only by personal attacks against myself , both in violation of Misplaced Pages:Biographies_of_living_persons#Remove_unsourced_or_poorly_sourced_contentious_material. Though WP:BLP also requires strict adherence to WP:NPOV, ScienceApologist is also engaging in blatantly imbalanced editing by removing information concerning Eric Lerner's theories sourced to peer reviewed journals, including one published by the respected Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers, while insisting that personal faculty webpages and blogs constitute good, reliable sources for criticism of Eric Lerner -- please see , which uses and as sources, as well as ScienceApologist's explanation of why blog posts are reliable sources, but peer reviewed journals published by the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers aren't . John254 21:44, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Testicular_cancer#Famous_survivors

Testicular_cancer#Famous_survivors needs better sourcing, or else the entries should be removed. Corvus cornix_talk 02:05, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Jordan Maxwell

The Misplaced Pages page on Jordan Maxwell keeps getting reverted back to a highly biased version submitted by Cohan8 where Jordan is basically accused of being a fraud/charlatan.

Here are some quotes: Many view the way he conducts his research as pseudo professional and heavily based on the sale of his own products rather than the objectivity of the "research" itself.

is a self proclaimed researcher and independent scholar in the fields of astrology, theology, religion, secret societies, the occult, and UFOlogy since 1959. He has produced numerous video lectures and documentaries on these subjects.

Also, the article repeatedly puts "believes" in scare quotes so as to demean any claims he makes.

This kind of personal bias reflects poorly on Misplaced Pages as a reputable source for information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.30.88.83 (talk) 02:46, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

In addition to the issue raised above, there are other problems here IMO. As it stands, a significant part of the article seems to me to be a copy violation of one of the references.

http://www.world-mysteries.com/doug_jmaxwell.htm

Will someone else please take a look at this

I removed the section "FBI surveillance" as it had no references at all. Wanderer57 (talk) 05:23, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Xeni Jardin

I have concerns about the amount of private information that contributors appearing to be trying to put into the article with dubious sourcing. In particularly, people appear to be trying to put her alleged real name in the article, despite the fact the only sourcing appears to be from employment records and IRS records and she has expressed a wish not to have it included. Also, her birthdate is include despite the OR used to derive it (see the footnote). Anyone else agree with me on this Nil Einne (talk) 15:23, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I protected the article because of edit warring over this. On looking into it further, I agree with your points. User:Yeago needs to be restrained here, and is now repeatedly posting a presumed name in bold on the article talk page. Note there has been contention over this article in the past over a different issue, namely an attack site concerning the subject. Ty 15:36, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I need to be restrained in what sense? I'm engaging in a discussion about the matter, just like you. I'm repeating posting a name in pursuit of my points, and I'm not sure if you're implying bad faith in my doing so, but I use bold occasionally to illustrate points. Also, please do not connect me (if you may suspect) to the 'attack site', as I had never read it before today, nor am I a reader of BoingBoing or anything else like that. I'm simply looking for Misplaced Pages standards to be extended to this article.Yeago (talk) 19:44, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Hydrino theory

• Hydrino theory (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• TStolper1W (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Michaelbusch (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

The article on Randell Mills, the inventor of this theory, was merged into this article. Tom Stolper wrote a book on Mills, his SPA is currently on 1RR (see COI Noticeboard archive). His opponent Michael Busch has just left the project.

After a slow edit war, Tom Stolper has now begun to change only a few things at a time , enabling reasonable discussion. I am concerned about the plagiarism comment. The accusation seems credible, and the justification added by Stolper unconvincing. But our only source for the accusation in the first place is the blog of a physicist who avoids using the word. More blunt formulations can be found in forum posts, but that seems to be all.

I am inclined to remove the accusation, but that will probably be questioned. I'd appreciate it if someone could have a look. --Hans Adler (talk) 15:24, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I have found the relevant BLP passages after all, but as it's not a biography in the strict sense I would still like to have some input, especially concerning the categorisation of a one man show theory as pseudoscience. I have removed both the plagiarism accusation and the potentially offensive categories. --Hans Adler (talk) 21:45, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

"Nazi orgies" tabloid allegation regarding Max Mosley

Before I run over 3RR regarding a person I know little about, can I please have at least one sane person look at Max Mosley's page? I believe that tabloids -- Bild, News of the World -- are not reliable sources, and the section that anons and occasional editors keep adding fails our BLP policy. Am I out of my mind? Is anything in this section acceptable? Thanks, Antandrus (talk) 16:19, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Definitely completely non-encyclopedic. FCYTravis (talk) 18:24, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Treat as vandalism, revert revert revert, if you get 3RR blocked e-mail me for an immediate unblock.--Doc 18:44, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

The page has been fully protected for a day, fyi. -- Naerii 20:41, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, in which time its now all over the Times, the Guardian and the Daily Telegraph. Sheesh. Over-reaction, anyone? Relata refero (talk) 11:28, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Magdi Allam

Magdi Allam (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) I'm involved in a dispute with a single purpose account over the article Magdi Allam. I know almost nothing about the subject of the article, but when I saw it, it seemed to me there were clear problems with it. Before this goes farther, I'd like to get some advice as to whether I'm reading the situation properly. Is this a clearly a POV article with unsourced contentious statements? Should I continue removing the unsourced statements, which the account has reinserted?

Thanks. --Bwwm (talk) 20:09, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

John McCain - John McCain presidential eligibility

→ See also: Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/John McCain presidential eligibility.

Two editors are trying to interject original research into articles relating to John McCain that he is inelligble to be president because he was not born in the United States. One of these editors User:2ndAmendment is new account (created March 19, 2008) and I suspect may be a WP:SOCK given their knowledge of WP policy and creation of this article after only 3 edits. The other editor User:Mr.grantevans2 has been trying to insert contentious material into the McCain primary article for some time. With the recent creation of this article, they appear to be performing original research to "prove" their case, and are using an unreliable (and McCain attack source) as a premise for their assertation that McCain does not qualify by this webpage's defintion of a natural born citizen. Discourse does not seem to be working at this time. Arzel (talk) 19:39, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

The sources they are using look pretty reliable to me (MSNBC and New York Times) but I AfD'd it on the basis that it's not worth of a seperate article. -- Naerii 19:45, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I reverted the insertion of the unreliable part. Look at the history. I don't have a problem with having the article in general, it is a topic of discussion, and I suspect it will become more of an issue as the election draws on. I do have a problem with editors that feel he is inelligible trying to present their research on this matter. Arzel (talk) 19:48, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Oh sorry, I was wondering where your link to WordPress was coming from. I looked at the old revision and the paragraph:

The constitution does not define "natural born Citizen". One definition, however, is "where only the natural act of one being born in a place determines the status of ones citizenship with no additional stipulations necessary to influence that status". The definition put forth by Blackstone in 1765 is "Natural-born subjects are such as are born within the dominions of the crown of England".

is almost certainly original research and/or synthesis. Talk:John_McCain#Is_McCain_a_.22Native_Born_American.22.3F is interesting, shows the POV pushers ignoring what seems (to me) to be a consensus that McCain's citizenship is not a significant issue. I'd say drop a note on their talk page about BLP but it looks like they're already experienced editors.. sigh. It looks like the fork is going to be deleted, btw. -- Naerii 19:58, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Laura Bozzo and LatinGossip.com

Laura Bozzo (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) I need some help with the Laura Bozzo article, which I believe has been a longtime troll magnet. First off, I had to clean out some dubious info about Bozzo today, sourced with the site LatinGossip.com, practically a self-published blog site that makes no proof of its claims whatsoever. ON a similar note, another BLP page is using the site. I think LatinGossip.com should be blacklisted.

And now regarding the Laura Bozzo page. IP's are continuously vandalizing it so that it's slanted towards her controversial talk show career. Take this vandal for instance. It took about 2 weeks for removal of accurate content to be restored, by me in this instance. (Here's the source documenting the claim about her "women's rights" activism/legal scholarship I restored). Things get worse as days go by. This right here is unacceptable because it fails to give proper sources to such claims. And this was the new lowlight I just had to remove on Saturday. I'm just raising concern over the Bozzo article so that administrators can help in keeping the integrity/accuracy of the article and deal with LatinGossip.com and other libel that may be added again to the Bozzo article, possibly even protect it. Thank you. --Andrewlp1991 (talk) 22:34, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

It looks OK now, and there is no enough disruption to warrant protection. I will add this article to my watchlist for a while. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:52, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I have it on my watchlist too. If libelous edits continue, I'll revert 'em. You can too. Protection may come if necessary. Also, what's Misplaced Pages gonna do with the LatinGossip.com site I just mentioned? Should'nt that site be blacklisted for being basically an unverifiable, inaccurate site? --Andrewlp1991 (talk) 05:14, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Feedback needed re Rob Grill article

Please will people with a sense of BLP issues take a look at this?

It concerns the article Rob Grill. There is discussion in Talk:Rob Grill about whether or not to include a particular news story in the article.

We requested a third opinion, which was to come to this page for an opinion. So we are here.

Thank you. Wanderer57 (talk) 23:53, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Talk:Jim Davidson (comedian)

I've cleaned up some questionable stuff from the article proper, but I'm unsure of the policy regarding talk pages. Can someone take a look and redact/excise anything that violates? Thanks. Exxolon (talk) 02:30, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Same as with the article, we don't tolerate BLP vios on talk pages either. Thanks, SqueakBox 02:38, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Carolyn Farb

• Carolyn Farb (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - repeated entry of what I feel is unsourced, questionable material. Need your feedback, please. Thanks, Postoak (talk) 05:13, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Good examples of BLP

Im looking for Rated FA-Class or better examples of poets/writers but falling under BLP. One first class rate article for a poet I found is William Butler Yeats. But he is not living... Any BLPs? User:Wikidas 10:27, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

There are none (unless you expand the set to include Bob Dylan). Seamus Heaney is the best of the lot, and you can see the state its in. Strangely, however, Modernist poetry in English is FA-class. Relata refero (talk) 12:40, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

When you say poets/writers do you mean poets or writers or someone who is a poet and writer? If you mean the former then there is J. K. Rowling, David Helvarg, Thomas Pynchon, Bruno Maddox and William Gibson, all of whom are writers of some kind from a quick look (Well I recognise most of them anyway). I don't think any of them are really poets. There are a whole bunch of FA non BLP poets, Chinese, Bengali, American and others. Check out Category:FA-Class biography (arts and entertainment) articles (which I found from Category:FA-Class biography articles which I found from Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Biography). If Misplaced Pages:Category intersection is ever implemented, then I guess we could just intersect BLP and the above category but in the mean time, you can just look thru the FA list and look for BLPs (but I looked thru the whole list and I'm pretty sure there are no poet BLPs there) Nil Einne (talk) 19:09, 31 March 2008 (UTC) Edit: may be useful Nil Einne (talk) 20:38, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Neve Gordon

• Neve Gordon (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Steven Plaut (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Misplaced Pages sockpuppets of Borisyy and Suspected Misplaced Pages sockpuppets of Borisyy

Neve Gordon has won a libel action in an Israeli court, confirmed at appeal, against Steven Plaut. Since the appeal court ruling at the beginning of this month, there have been a dozen edits to the article, repeating the substance of the original libels, by confirmed or suspected sockpuppets of Borisyy. I have requested semi-protection of this page, in order to prevent libellous edits by sockpuppets, but this has been refused. Is there any other way to prevent such libellous vandalism and abuse? RolandR (talk) 16:33, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

The Plaut article is protected, the Gordon article is not. Interesting. — Athaenara ✉ 22:40, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Indefinite semi-protection has twice been refused. The libellous attack has been repeated twice since I commented earlier. RolandR (talk) 19:06, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

• Category:Misplaced Pages sockpuppets of Truthprofessor apparently has something to do with this as well. — Athaenara ✉ 22:48, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

This appears to be all the work of the vandal known as "Runtshit"; some of us might hazard a guess as to this person's real identity. RolandR (talk) 19:09, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Analysing the BLP problem

OK, this should probably be on the talk page. But honestly, would you read it there?

I am trying to define and analyse the BLP problem. I've made a start at User:Doc_glasgow/The BLP problem. But I'd really like feedback from anyone with an interest. Thanks.--Doc 19:30, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Don Murphy (3)

• Don Murphy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

This article has been the subject of intense controversy recently and is currently fully protected following a spate of vandalism. The controversy has not abated and has every possibility of continuing for some time. It would be helpful if uninvolved editors could watchlist it to ensure that further vandalism is reverted promptly in the event of its protection being lowered (which will presumably happen at some point). -- ChrisO (talk) 21:49, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Rick Reilly

• Rick Reilly (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

In May of 2007, I noticed a certain editor (Tanninglamp (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)) had a fixation to add info in a biased manner to Rick Reilly's article (My first revert here). My recollection is that he was blocked for 3rr and for using multiple IP's and socks to edit war (An archived ANI thread I found is here). After dealing with the socks for a while and trying unsuccessfully to keep out the material which was, as far as I could find, only linked to one source (unlike the U of Colorado sex scandal, which Reilly criticized; it was subject to much media scrutiny) --I tried to keep the material and the source, but present it in a factual way (change diff). This change did not satisfy the editor as it did not properly impugn Mr. Reilly's character and successfully paint him as a hypocrite as did his earlier version. I have no idea why it is so important to this editor (appears to be the same user) for this info to be included, but s/he has occasionally popped up to re-insert the info (latest diff).

• Could a couple of editors help watch the article?
• Does anyone have an opinion as to whether the info should be included in whole or in part?

I'm thinking just throw out the info all together. My recollection from doing research on it last year is that no further news articles could be found. Also in the only reference for this info, it stated, "Prosecutors decided not to file charges because there were conflicting statements from the teenagers involved and not enough physical evidence to determine who was telling the truth." I'm not even sure if they were talking about charges against Reilly or not, as Reilly was not at his home when the alleged incident took place.

• Thanks in advance for any assistance. This appears to be a longterm campaign, and I need backup. R. Baley (talk) 21:22, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Alan Moulder

Entire article has nearly no citations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gh0570fchurch (talk • contribs) 23:44, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

There does not seem to be anything of concern from a BLP perspective here - unless you consider claiming someone worked with My Bloody Valentine is libelous. Which you should. Skomorokh 23:49, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Gabrielle Giffords

Gabrielle Giffords (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) A new user has repeatedly (>6 times) tried to add poorly-sourced OR that, among other things, alleges that the article subject's support of a certain bill shows that she has violated her Democratic values. All attempts to conform to policy and reach consensus have been met by continued reverts and personal attacks. It's a low-traffic article and I could use someone to give an outside opinion, help revert the offending content, and better-introduce the new user Bobheath (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). johnpseudo 01:29, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I notice the offending user's talkpage was a redlink as of your writing this; it might have been a more appropriate forum to escalate the discussion, per WP:DR#Discuss. Skomorokh 01:36, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Whoops! I incorrectly capitalized the name. It should be fixed now. johnpseudo 03:28, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

The page has now been fully protected. Various other opinions have been given to Bobheath on the talkpage, which will hopefully sink in.--Slp1 (talk) 13:18, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

John Lehman bio

from current text: "Because the Vietnam War was raging in 1968, many people found that they had to have connections or influence in order to gain admission to the Reserves and thereby avoid serving in jungle warfare in Vietnam."

gratuitous and irrelevant with clear intent of malignant inference. delete it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Clanranald (talk • contribs) 02:48, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, that's definitely right out, and has been removed. The clause was inserted by an anon IP back in February. Page watchlisted. FCYTravis (talk) 02:57, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Lotfi Asker Zadeh

This is not a serious BLP issue, just a minor one, as the claims made are not really controversial, but a third party opinion would be good for resolving the dispute. The dispute is related to the current citizenship of Mr. Lotfi Zade. According to Mr Lotfi Zade himself: "I am the citizen of the United States. I was born in Baku, but I was not Soviet citizen, I was an Iranian citizen. In 1944 I came to the States as an immigrant, not as a student". This clearly means that this person is currently a US citizen and he used to be a citizen of Iran in the past. However according to User:07fan, Mr Lotfi Zade has at present the Iranian citizenship as well, but the aforementioned user fails to present any source to support this claim. While I do not consider this to be a serious issue, BLP rules require that any info about the living person needs to be properly sourced and be accurate. A third party opinion on this issue would be appreciated. Grandmaster (talk) 06:55, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

User:Grandmaster is making an WP:OR assertion that that Lotfi Asker Zadeh is no longer an Iranian citizen or that he is "former Iranian citizen", sonly based on the fact that Zadeh also became an American citizen in 1994. However, User:Grandmaster is ignoring the fact that "Voluntary acquisition of a foreign citizenship does not lead to automatic loss of Iranian citizenship". . Zadeh has never said "I am a former Iranian citizen", he grew up in Iran, moved to US on an Iranian passport, and even after moving to US, lived and worked in US and traveled around the world as an Iranian for decades, and did not acquire an American citizenship until 1994, three years after he had retired, and there is no indication whatsoever that Zadeh ever renounced his Iranian citizenship. Furthermore, BBC, in a recent interview, refers to Zadeh as "an Iranian scientist" and I have even offered User:Grandmaster to contact Zadeh and ask him if he ever renounced his Iranian citizenship, but User:Grandmaster has so far refused to do so. More discussions can be found at Talk:Lotfi_Asker_Zadeh --07fan (talk) 07:24, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

The OR is to assert that a person holds a certain citizenship without any sources to support this claim. Mr Lotfi Zadeh talks about his Iranian citizenship in the past tense, and there's no other evidence to support the claim on his second citizenship. I would be glad to see any reliable source about that. Again, I do not consider this to be a big issue, but for the sake of accuracy this info should be verified. Grandmaster (talk) 12:19, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Mark Trombino

There has been some debate on the Mark Trombino page (http://en.wikipedia.org/Mark_Trombino) about including a quote from a member of a band he worked with.

It is verifiable, but is not a particularly positive comment. I believe this is allowed by Misplaced Pages's policy on neutrality, which clearly allows for opinions if they are sourced and attributed (see specifically: http://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view#Attributing_and_substantiating_biased_statements)

Can someone please confirm this, because a user takes the quote down, almost daily. I'm completely impartial here, I just found the quote to be very interesting! Mikenosilly (talk) 00:51, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

libel and defamation on user page

• Cult free world (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (sig piped through "talk-to-me!" lately)
• User:Cult free world/Proposed Sahaj Marg India (edit | ] | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Two court cases have found the statements User:Cult Free World is making here libelous and defamatory.

The details are described here on the page's "Miscellany for Deletion" page. Thank you for reviewing the actual court case which is provided in the above post. Renee (talk) 22:39, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Miscellany for deletion/User:Cult free world/Proposed Sahaj Marg India is the current link. — Athaenara ✉ 22:20, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

It's just been moved here: Misplaced Pages talk:Miscellany for deletion/User:Cult free world/Proposed Sahaj Marg India. Thanks. Renee (talk) 22:33, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Right, two different pages: the MfD itself and its talk page. The specifics of the libel and defamation issues are addressed more specifically on the latter. — Athaenara ✉ 23:49, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

User:Cult Free World just posted yet another claim of sexual abuse as fact here, when two courts in India have found such allegations libelous and defamatory. This is a serious violation of Misplaced Pages policy. Please, can someone act? Renee (talk) 19:57, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Dorothy Tillman

Dorothy Tillman (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) unblock-en-l received a complaint about the content of this article, which does seem sketchy to my eyes. More eyes would be appreciated. WilyD 14:01, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

I have had a go at cleaning out some inappropriately sourced material, links etc from this article. I think Ms. Tillman is probably more interesting than the current article implies but that will have to wait for somebody who will do the appropriate writing and sourcing. I will keep an eye on it.--Slp1 (talk) 01:18, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I restored some of the controversy section after fixing the dead links, and kept the neutral section header. I did this before I was aware of an external complaint, and I'm happy to discuss how we can fix the article while keeping a moderate amount of this material. Tillman is very well-known locally for the incidents listed in the article, several of which contributed to her re-election loss. I think the sourcing is fine now (no blogs, everything is sourced to media with reputations for fact checking), but I would appreciate a review of the writing. Skinwalker (talk) 13:51, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Goli Ameri

Goli Ameri (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - User Mahmoudg, using his username and possibly at times when not logged in, is consistently adding negative-biased, unsubstantiated information to the Goli Ameri article // Mahmoudg (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) // Johndoe555 (talk) 16:00, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

BLP Violation needs attention

Can someone please take care of another BLP violation, described here? It derogates the living guru of this meditation system by taking liberties with translating from non-English sources. The tone of this whole article is to make Sahaj Marg sound as strange as possible when in fact it is a meditation group that is not on any English language cult list and is considered by the United Nations to be a spiritual and humanitarian non-governmental organization. Thanks!! Marathi_Mulgaa (talk) 17:42, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Sebastian Bleisch

Sebastian Bleisch is a living person and shows up in Category:Child pornography with no other real people. Could someone check this our as far a appropriateness of the categories he is listed under. Thanks! Mattisse (Talk) 00:16, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Sylvia Bourdon

Sylvia Bourdon is a living person and is listed under Category:Animal pornography, Her article has no reference ctations. Thanks! Mattisse (Talk) 00:23, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Marina Hedman

Same problem as above. How do living people become listed under Category:Animal pornography. Thanks! Mattisse (Talk) 00:26, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Ben Modo

• Ben Modo (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - Subject proposed his own article for deletion here. The entire article is sourced to only one book, and no web sources. Some of it appears to be disparaging.

I am inclined to ask for speedy deletion in order to clear the history. Article could then be recreated with proper references. Is this right?

There is an open RfC as well. —BradV 00:51, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

• Closing this as resolved since the page was speedy deleted. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • 01:45, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Patrick Carnes

Patrick Carnes, a BLP, is the only person under Category:Sexual addiction. Thanks! Mattisse (Talk) 01:26, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

• I've removed the category. Are there other concerns? —BradV 01:32, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you! No other concerns. Mattisse (Talk) 15:05, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Maxine Waters

Is there a way to semi-protect or otherwise stop the inclusion of "Rep. Waters said she's going to cast her Superdelegate vote for Candidate A but Candidate B won in her district and that goes against the will of the voters."

This is irrelevant to Maxine Waters' biography and it misrepresents the Superdelegate process. The Misplaced Pages article on Superdelegates states, "All the superdelegates are free to support any candidate for the nomination." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.162.143.161 (talk) 04:48, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

If it's been presented as a controversy, it had better have been significantly covered by reliable sources as a controversy. Otherwise, out it goes. It it's persistently re-inserted, we can evaluate what combination of blocks and protection would be best. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 07:33, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm an Obama supporter and I really don't see how it's relevant. Lots of superdelegates have endorsed candidates that didn't win their district's popular vote. George Miller endorsed Obama but Clinton won California CD-7. FCYTravis (talk) 16:49, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Well thank heavens for you! (Seriously, I'm not being sarcastic). I'm so sick of trying to explain to both sides (I happen to support Clinton although I don't work for her as the person who threatened to subpoena my IP address and alert the media said I did) that there in no official correlation to be made between a Superdelegte's district's popular vote and the candidate the Superdelegate choses to support. --Smart Ways (talk) 19:19, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Here's the "warning" I received:

Please stop your campaign to erase evidence of Superdelegates who are voting for Clinton despite their districts voting for Obama. You've done it more than once, and objectivity and relevance is clearly not your motive. If you want fairness and objectivity you would leave these entries alone and also add similar entries to Obama superdelegates who's districts voted for Clinton.

If you keep up your current shenanigans, I will act to have your IP blocked, and traced. If you happen to have made these alterations from an official computer that is in an office allied with Hillary, or Waters, or Richardson, I will be sure the media finds out. You don't want that kind of press.

Again, the way to tackle this issue with integrity and objectivity is to ensure every superdelegate's pledged vote is noted, along with whether or not the vote contradicts the vote of the superdelegate's constituents.

--Smart Ways (talk) 19:21, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Alan Haskvitz

This middle school teacher wrote this page about himself as a means of self promotion. If you go on his own website, you will find the exact same content. There are also no citations whatsoever on his page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Astroidea (talk • contribs) 07:29, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Where's the text copied from? If it's a copyright violation, we can speedily delete it. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 07:32, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Most of the information in the article is referenced, although not with in-line citations (not a requirement). I see no evidence in the history of a copyright violation. Typically when something is a copyright violation you'll see the whole thing created in one edit, and that has not happened here. Also, the article has already been nominated for speedy deletion, and was declined. If you feel strongly about it you could take it to AfD. —BradV 14:27, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Ashida Kim

• Ashida Kim (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - I don't know what to do with this article. If I deleted what I suspected was unreliable sources, I'd have to stubbify it, but when I put the article to AfD, it failed. Any advice? Andjam (talk) 09:35, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Go ahead remove all material that's not reliably sourced. The previous afd called for stubification anyway. This will eventually die in a future afd, but we're not there yet.--Doc 10:28, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

A Massachusetts District Court isn't a reliable source? I agree the article needs tidying, but I disagree with the amount of material you've removed. Thedarxide (talk) 13:28, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

The BLP concerns are addressed now. I don't think anyone would have a problem with putting reliable sourced information back in. —BradV 14:13, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

How have they been addressed? What reliable sourced information? Andjam (talk) 03:13, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

This was what the article looked like when I made that comment. I see all the unsourced POV has been added back in. —BradV 03:18, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I've reverted to that version for now. As I said before, verifiable, properly sourced information can be added back in. This is going to need attention by a number of people to ensure that unsourced information doesn't end up back in the article. —BradV 03:32, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I have removed the birth date from the article because there is no source given for it. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 20:51, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

The article is still slightly slanted towards the negative and one editor keeps on introducing a section about a move called "Monkey stealing peach" that adds nothing to the page at all. They have provided one link of a person making fun of it online, but it's not from a reliable source. Hell, I could make fun of it on a blog and the person would probably use that as well. Why is it important to note? On top of that, they continue to add that there is a "possibly unrelated" move present in other martial arts systems. That is basically original research because it can not be confirmed that this is true. I have removed that bit, but I'm sure the editor will re-add it. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 17:47, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

The lack of any comment on the talk page or at the least a link here, initially made this appear to be kim fan-boy vandalism. --Nate1481(/_c) 09:13, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

The solution is re-writing it as an article about a pen name used buy an 'unknown' author as their is no evidence that a real person called 'Ashida Kim' exists. p.s. Added an advert tag as that's all thats left. --Nate1481(/_c) 12:47, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it was a fan. By adding a link to a website ridiculing the technique, the person was pretty much saying "hey, look at what else this nut claims he can do." --Ghostexorcist (talk) 23:18, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

We're currently disagreeing about the use of court documents to expose his real name. Can someone else look at the issue please? Andjam (talk) 22:48, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I've removed the real name. There's a good rule of thumb for BLPs - if you have to go do a public records search on someone to find something out, it probably doesn't belong in their Misplaced Pages biography. Misplaced Pages is not for investigative journalism. FCYTravis (talk) 23:03, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Peter Braunstein

Peter Braunstein (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (added links. --Coppertwig (talk) 17:06, 5 April 2008 (UTC))

Peter Braunstein is a living person convicted of a sex offense. I am wondering if this article is adequately sourced for the statements made in it. Also, is it appropriate to have a "Trivia" section in BLP? Mattisse (Talk) 14:02, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

It could certainly use a few more newspaper articles as references, especially for the statements marked with {{fact}} tags. The article claims that the case received "a lot of media attention", so it should be easy for someone to find sources. —BradV 14:10, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Cynthia Payne

Cynthia Payne (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (added links. --Coppertwig (talk) 16:56, 5 April 2008 (UTC))

Cynthia Payne BLP article is unreferenced. She in in category:Sex worker and Category:People acquitted of sex crimes . She allegedly ran a brothel. Thanks, Mattisse (Talk) 16:11, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Matisse: You can fix these issues on you own... Just follow WP:BLP. As we say so fix it ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:33, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

See also Misplaced Pages:Categorization of people#Biographies_of_living_people ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:36, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Boris Berezovsky

Boris Berezovsky (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (adding links) --16:49, 5 April 2008 (UTC))

I'd guess Boris has seen this page before. He is very controversial for many reasons. My call is that the article is ok, using well documented sources, but there is a discussion going on now about BLP concerns. I don't think "compliant with BLP" is equivalent to "whitewash," but others might want to take a look and give their own reading to the situation. Smallbones (talk) 18:40, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Ulli Lommel and IMDB as a "reliable source

• Ulli Lommel (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - User:Jacques clouseau added a biography to the article for Ulli Lommel which was completely unsourced and a little bit biased as well. I removed it and left a message on the user's talk page (this user, so far, has only edited Lommel's article) explaining the rules of citing sources and POV. He reinstated his edit, citing 90% of the article with edits from IMDB. I reverted it again, saying that IMDB isn't used as a reliable source as users can submit information themselves and its not easily verifiable. So this is what Jacques wrote on the talk page.

"Well, what is Misplaced Pages then? Everybody can submit info to Misplaced Pages, IMDB updates only info from reliable updaters. Is it just that user CyberGhostface hates Lommel and doesn't want that Misplaced Pages, A DICTIONARY, would have anything about him?"

I pointed out that Misplaced Pages ISN'T considered a reliable source, and Misplaced Pages will NEVER cite itself in an article, and that IMDB has posted false information tons of times. (I remember one time they listed Saw IV as starring Jessica Alba and featuring Jigsaw's baby). He hasn't responded yet, but if someone can just back me on this if I'm correct before it escalates any further, that'd be great. // CyberGhostface (talk) 20:56, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Nathaniel Bar-Jonah

Nathaniel Bar-Jonah is a living person but I can not tell from the references what is true and what is not. Is about.com considered a reliable source? I thought it was a mirror site of wikipendia but now it is owned by the New York Times. Mattisse (Talk) 22:52, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I'll take a look. He has appeared on Most evil a psychology Discovery Channel show, which is a much more reliable source than about.com. Thanks, SqueakBox 23:49, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I have edited it and removed about.com as a ref. see here, I'll try to get some more sources later. Thanks, SqueakBox 00:02, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Could you be thinking of answers.com (which mirrors wikipedia), rather than about.com? Andjam (talk) 04:28, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Neither are reliable, just look where your about.com link takes us. Thanks, SqueakBox 07:01, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I did a web search and listed some links to news articles on the article talk page. --Coppertwig (talk) 16:32, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Plagiarism

Plagiarism (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - User:Verklempt, in violation of WP:UNDUEWEIGHT, is tendentiously making edits to restore material on alleged plagiarism by Alan Dershowitz. Groupthink (talk) 06:26, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Verklempt is restoring impeccably sourced edits, about a topic that is already the subject of an entire Misplaced Pages article: Dershowitz-Finkelstein_affair.Verklempt (talk) 20:56, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

It certainly seems as notable as any of the other examples in there. (Though frankly I haven't the vaguest idea why there's a list of examples in there at all.) --Relata refero (disp.) 18:49, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Runhardt Sander

Runhardt Sander (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - Biographical article of a "German lawyer and political functionary" linked to far-right political parties, including placement in the neo-nazi category (now reverted). There are absolutely no references given in this article, the "official" website for this individual is now reportedly "hacked", and interestingly there is no parallel article for this person in the German Misplaced Pages. Would appreciate suggestions on how best to proceed. Risker (talk) 07:06, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Just my suggestion: you could try to find references, and if you don't find sufficient, then nominate the article for deletion. Note that the corresponding German article was deleted on 21:20, 9. Okt. 2007 by Michael Sander (same surname), apparently after a deletion discussion. (I'm assuming "gelöscht" must mean "deleted".) In the deletion discussion, they talk about sources (Quellen), relevance, "Original Research", etc., and then Michael Sander posts a message when deleting the page. Eep, I see that I was the one who marked the page as patrolled. Sorry about that. --Coppertwig (talk) 16:00, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

this website mentions that the German page had been deleted and gives the text of two deleted pages, that one and Reichsbürger-Union. --Coppertwig (talk) 17:03, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Salt Lake City School District

Salt Lake City School District (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - User Dylandude89 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) editwars to add pejorative unsourced information about a school basketball coach and principal, continuing after being warned on 22:20, 4 April 2008 (UTC). Please note also this comment posted at AN/3RR about the ongoing real-life consequences. --Coppertwig (talk) 12:16, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I've left a warning message explaining our policies on his talk page; while I think he's acting in good faith, unfortunately he's making unsourced allegations. If he persists, we'll just have to block, unfortunately. FCYTravis (talk) 18:55, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I've explained things to the user on my talk page, and the user seems to have stopped reverting. There were sources, but not proper ones—e.g. a student newspaper, I think. --Coppertwig (talk) 10:18, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Student newspapers are reliable sources. Unfortunately, he was linking not to a newspaper, but to his assertion that he was a reporter for the high school student newspaper, and that his reporting was censored by the administration (unfortunately possible at the high school level.) As a student journalist myself, I sympathise, but obviously we can't allow unpublished assertions. FCYTravis (talk) 17:57, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

The user again posted similar negative information, this time with the only "source" given being a broken link. I'm not convinced that student newspapers are a reliable source for this type of thing: I'd have to see your arguments or a reference to a guideline or something. For this type of allegation, very high quality sources are needed IMO. I don't think student newspapers qualify. Even small local newspapers may not qualify. Besides verifiability, the information probably isn't sufficiently notable or relevant, either. --Coppertwig (talk) 12:13, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

The Deseret News isn't a student newspaper in any event - it is the second largest newspaper in Utah, a competitor to the Salt Lake Tribune. The source for that issue is certainly impeccable - but whether that minor incident is really encyclopedic in the broader context of a school district's encyclopedia article, is questionable at best. FCYTravis (talk) 22:56, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Alberto Lugo

Alberto Lugo is a living person. The article is unsourced. There is one external link to an informal article at a boxing website. Mattisse (Talk) 14:09, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I've nominated it for deletion with prod, after doing a couple of web searches and not finding any sources. --Coppertwig (talk) 16:03, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. –Mattisse (Talk) 18:51, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

You're welcome; I'm happy to be able to help. Actually, it seems that someone has already speedy-deleted the article; I had also considered speedy-tagging it. By the way, the reason I'm here is that I was helping at the 3RR noticeboard and noticed that a page reported there, Salt Lake City School District, had a BLP problem so I came here to report it. I then decided to look around on this noticeboard and now I think I'll start helping here regularly, too. --Coppertwig (talk) 09:47, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Request for assistance

DataTreasury (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (Adding links --Coppertwig (talk) 09:40, 6 April 2008 (UTC))

Some lobbying efforts on a patent reform law have turned nasty in connection with a company called DataTreasury and there are lots of accusations flying around about the history and current conduct of the officers of this company. Some of these accusations have found their way onto Misplaced Pages.

I think the article is currently OK, as I've removed the unsourced info and have toned down the sourced info in an effort to present both sides in a balanced way. However, there is an onging discussion on the talk page which might get problematic. Issues of COI have also arisen, but I think have been dealt with.

I don't get inolved in Bio issues often, and would appreciate a more experienced editor taking a look and making sure that the relevant guidelines are being complied with. Thanks. GDallimore (Talk) 17:30, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Based on an edit I just reverted, this appears to be an ongoing issue. Additional eyes are welcome. --ElKevbo (talk) 23:35, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Zakir Naik

• Zakir Naik (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) is frequently a target by vandals or editors who believe the article is a dumping ground for any or every view espoused by Naik.

• ISKapoor (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and an associate of his, Vikramsingh (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), keep inserting tendentious material aimed to reflect negatively on Naik by focusing unduly on one or two particular opinions of his (~3kb of content in a 9kb article, much of which is already about controversy/criticism). This consists primarily of lengthy quotes derived from youtube websites or interviews. There was a consensus developed some time ago that the article would not become an unencyclopedic coatrack for every opinion he held, either to promote or defame him. It's not relevant to his notability in any way, and I believe it's inappropriate to continue inserting these lengthy passages about what Naik thinks about Muslims or non-Muslims or whatever. I have advised ISKapoor about BLP policy several times on the talk page, but he refuses to get the message. I'd appreciate some assistance. ITAQALLAH 00:07, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Gerald Grosvenor, 6th Duke of Westminster

Gerald Grosvenor, 6th Duke of Westminster (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (Adding links to article) --Coppertwig (talk) 09:38, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Regarding last month's prostitution scandal, the Daily Mail reported that the Duke was a patron of the Emperors Club VIP as Client No. 6. Several other sources also did a story on the allegations. However, the Daily Mail has since removed the article from its site, though I am not aware of a retraction notice having been printed. The Times revised its article to remove mention of the Duke, and many other papers' stories of the Duke's ties to the Emperors Club have been removed or edited down.

Is it acceptable to have those allegations in the article if the main sources have retracted them? Do we have a general rule about how to deal with sources that have been retracted after being cited? Dforest (talk) 09:12, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Hi. I'm not personally familiar with any policy on handling later retractions. It seems to me that the handling of such would be case-by-case. I see that the article doesn't allege that the Duke was Client #6, but rather neutrally reports that the Daily Mail said so (a modest assertion, since it seems that a number of other sources said so as well). It also reports on his lawyers' denial of the claim. I should personally think that rather than removing the mention, the section should be expanded to describe the evolution of the situation, with the alteration of reporting, as set out here. The allegations seem to have garnered some widespread notability, looking at google and googlenews. Withdrawing all reference seems inappropriate to me. Keeping it strictly neutral and factual should not be problematic per BLP. --Moonriddengirl 12:46, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. I think the article should say that certain things were reported and that the newspapers later retracted them, etc. If there are a lot of sources like the link Moonriddengirl gives, talking about how the stories were edited down, then it would not be undue weight to talk about it here too. If things are relatively quiet, it might be appropriate to tone it down a bit in the article: shift it to later in the article or shorten it or something, since the fact that the material was retracted could suggest that maybe it wasn't true and that therefore we shouldn't emphasize such allegations too much. Remembering that Misplaced Pages is not censored, though. Just my opinion. :-) --Coppertwig (talk) 15:49, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

What Moonriddengirl suggested about expanding the section to describe the evolution of the situation, in particular the apparent retractions of the articles, is what I was leaning towards. But I also agree that we shouldn't give undue weight to a scandal if the main sources have pulled their stories. One problem I see is that many of the articles online seem to have simply disappeared online, and others seem to have removed certain statements such as mention of "Client No. 6" or linking the Duke to that label. I believe there's a big verifiability issue if we can't cite the original versions of the articles. Unfortunately with web-based news there is no 'history' function like with wiki. Huffington Post, which is already cited, seems to have the best coverage of the retractions. Probably we should cite the Daily Mail's removal of the article from their website and the Times removing mention of the Duke from their article. Does that sound acceptable? Dforest (talk) 16:55, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

It sounds like a good approach to me. --Moonriddengirl 18:05, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Mary-Kate Olsen

Re Mary-Kate Olsen (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). (Converted to La template --Coppertwig (talk) 15:33, 6 April 2008 (UTC))

The ref given in the first paragraph of this article is to a 4 year old story about an eating disorder. The paragraph is not about that at all.

The photo of Olsen is quite unflattering, IMO. Should we use such a photo of someone of whom there are thousands of good photos? I know we can't just pick a good photo and use it. My point is that if this is the best photo we have, we should not use any photo.

IMO article is off-policy in both regards. Opinion please. Wanderer57 (talk) 15:25, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Just my opinion: the photo looks OK to me. She's smiling. It's an ordinary photo, not a studio posed photo, that's all. (Maybe I'm missing something.) If it can be replaced with a better one, fine, but I wouldn't just remove it.

Re eating disorder: I think the article is being used to verify the statement that they're twins. It does that. So I think that's OK too, although it would be better to replace it with a different source because it could draw undue attention to the eating disorder. --Coppertwig (talk) 15:42, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't think the photo is particularly unflattering; it's just a candid shot from a rather odd angle. Is there a better picture of her that is not copyrighted? -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 20:11, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Darwin's Black Box

It has been claimed that a review of this book that states, in part, "...an exposition of the Frontiers of Ignorance and that within it systems were labelled 'irreducibly complex' if Behe was not able to envision a simpler system that still worked" constitutes a violation of BLP. What do you think?--Filll (talk) 15:43, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

That's not in the least a violation of BLP. It's a statement of opinion in a book review. FCYTravis (talk) 17:50, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Or, a shade more accurately, its a rather petty extract of a one-liner from a devastatingly critical but otherwise scholarly review in a self-published source that makes rather direct implication's about the book's author. Please. --Relata refero (disp.) 18:47, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

No, I'm sorry, this isn't a BLP issue. It's calling the book "an exposition of the Frontiers of Ignorance." That's called criticism. Whether or not you think it's "rather petty" is immaterial. FCYTravis (talk) 19:40, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Indeed? "His book is an exploration of the frontiers of ignorance...a system is labeled "irreducibly complex" if _he_ cannot postulate a workable simpler form for the system" does not say something about the person rather than the book to you? The pronoun is even in italics....

Quibbling. It's supposed to refer to the book, but actually is being used to make a comment about the person. (In a manner not representative of the original very critical usenet posting, I might add.) --Relata refero (disp.) 19:55, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

You are stretching this beyond comprehension. My head is spinning. An author who writes a book on such a controversial (and discredited) postulation as intelligent design, can expect to receive criticism from academic sources. The review is criticizing Behe's well-known defense of the irreducible complexity fallacy.

There is nothing in BLP which says we exclude any and all criticism of someone. This is a controversial book and it's going to receive critical reviews. The review is written by an academic expert, published in a reliable source and doesn't constitute undue weight. It is not vulgar, defamatory or otherwise inappropriate. It's not a BLP issue. FCYTravis (talk) 20:05, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

(ecx2)I'm carrying out this argument on two fronts, so am spinning as well.. have you seen the response on the article talkpage? Its not an academic source, its an archived modified usenet post by a grad student. As I say on the page, part of our mission is to provide trenchant, relevant criticism from academic sources. You are yet to say how the above phrase addresses encyclopaedic criticism of the book (note that vast majority of the post discusses aspects of genetic sequences that Behe misrepresents or elides over); how suggesting the replacement of one critical review from an SPS by any of a hundred others from definite RSes would make "nothing in BLP which says we exclude any and all criticism of someone" even vaguely relevant; and above all, how the phrase chosen from the article avoids commenting on the author rather than on the myriad flaws of his book. In fact you haven't actually dealt with my specific objection, merely saying its 'silly'. Entirely possible. Humour me, why don't you, by actually addressing it, instead of repeating things we already agree on, such as that a lot of criticism is expected, and should be in the article per NPOV? Silly how? Relata refero (disp.) 20:17, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

How many hours are you demanding of other editor's time to answer this ridiculous series of complaints? How many wasted kilobytes of discussion? It staggers the imagination. Are you really requesting that we waste 10, 20, 30, 50, 100, 200 or more manhours on this silly issue? Surely this is a joke.--Filll (talk) 20:42, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually, if you had focused on my objection narrowly, rather than in my opinion over-reacting, kilobytes of discussion wouldn't have been needed. --Relata refero (disp.) 13:47, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

If it's not an academic or reliable source but a blog or something, then delete it. However, I agree that it's essentially criticizing the ideas in the book, which is fine. Even criticizing the author himself is fine, if properly sourced. This sort of quote sounds to me like perfectly normal book review critique and fine to use if from a published book review. Not really a BLP issue, IMO. --Coppertwig (talk) 12:20, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Criticising the author would be fine if its not a SPS. If it is an SPS, it comes down to whether the quote is chosen to indirectly discuss the author's intellect or not. Since I believe its an SPS, if enough people think that the quote, selected from a long review which otherwise focuses on criticism of Behe's argument, does not do that, the question is moot. So far, FCY and Coppertwig have both disagreed with me on this (as have various people who are regular editors of those articles.) Anyone else - preferably uninvolved - feels the same way? It might help if people read the whole review and then the excerpt. --Relata refero (disp.) 13:47, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Ian Blair

Ian Blair (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), head of the Metropolitan Police, currently about as popular as a fart in a space suit but the article might just as well be titled "list of things the Daily Mail uses to attack Ian Blair". I removed the crap and left a strongly worded note on Talk about the need for WP:NPOV, but a pound says that it will be back in all its venom unless we watch the article. Guy (Help!) 20:13, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Watchlisted. FCYTravis (talk) 20:16, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Far too much, definitely. Not to say that some of it isn't notable, especially the Menezes bit, but putting in a random remark about the Second World War? Bit much. --Relata refero (disp.) 20:21, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

You should watch your edit titles. Removing half the article with an edit title of "Disgusting" rather than any mention of BLP, NPOV etc. was an invitation for a reversion as vandalism.--Peter cohen (talk) 21:35, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Something needed to be done, I agree, but at the moment the article does not mention Jean Charles de Menezes, and that is completely unacceptable. I left a note on Guy's talk page about this, and I hope he will take the initiative and start to re-add material. If he does not, then he is breaching WP:NPOV. Guy, would you wade into Jean Charles de Menezes and Ken Livingstone and other articles, and cut huge swathes out of those ones (and no, please don't go and do that - raise your concerns on the talk page first). Carcharoth (talk) 10:35, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Things were not helped by the previous criticism of this article on the talk page featuring posts such as when press and political criticism came from more directions than the mainstream right of British politics. Hopefully we'll get something much stronger out of Carcharoth's rewrite.--Peter cohen (talk) 12:18, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Seal

I'm blocked but even so, check out the seal article - it's FULL of unsourced claims and quotes to individuals with no sources - one editor reverted back in a claim that he worked for prostitutes and was arrested for such in his zeal to prevent me doing a BLP clean-up! hello Mr. Lawsuit! Forget my edits, someone just take a read of the Personal life section. --87.112.86.10 (talk) 20:20, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

The one contentious sentence has been removed by another user, yet this self-confessed banned person has continued to remove vast tracts of information which are not contentious (such as mention of the singer's two most famous songs). They seem to be applying the last resort 'remove content' option where the article simply needs improvement. --BrucePodger (talk) 20:47, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

the whole section relies on lengthy unsourced quotes attributed to living individuals. I removed the whole section and suggested on the talkpage that editors read the history and re-add material that can be sourced and does not rely on unsourced quotes from living individuals. I am not saying "this can never be added or is all wrong", I am saying it needs a good read and factcheck and that material that seems ok should be re-added section by section. Or are we just going to say that BLP is now too hard to do properly and we should just leave in unsourced quotes to living individuals until somebody can be bothered to do something about it? is that really what it's come to? --87.112.86.10 (talk) 20:51, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I'll say it again. the BLP policy says "Remove unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material". You're removing large amounts of non-contentious material. Your actions are, despite your claims, not in accordance with the BLP policy. --BrucePodger (talk) 20:54, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

It's irrelevant as the whole section has been identified by another editor as a copyvio.--87.114.13.4 (talk) 21:09, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I just found that myself looking for sources. I guess even the non-contentious bits need a re-write, just not for the reasons they were originally removed. --BrucePodger (talk) 21:10, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Reverting in unsourced material to BLP articles

Let's play a game, we can call it "let's revert in unsourced statements". Let me begin, I get ten points for every unsourced statement that someone has reverted into a single article about a living figure.

Self-promotion was something of an obsession with James's father.

Once he faded from the public eye, James was employed in a series of low paid jobs but by his own admission usually didn't last very long before being fired or quitting.

Initially he thought himself to be gay and tried the gay lifestyle but didn't fit in.

Allen discovered that many of the qualifications had been purchased on the internet and that Harries' own mother had overseen Harries' counselling on the psychological aspects of gender reassignment. A number of other aspects of the family's life did not bear scrutiny.

Since Harries' childhood the family, who live in Cardiff, Wales, have been persecuted by neighbours who take exception to Harries' "transvestitism" and the perceived snobbery of the family. Cabbages are often thrown at the windows of their house.

All in the article on living figure Lauren Harries.

Shall we play another game? it's called Tabloids are now considered a reliable source and even if a whole section is based upon tabloids and the blog of a tabloid, then we should take no notice of policy because, hey it's best to have some poorly sourced material than nothing at all, you can see it being played in this edit.

I guess bruce is pissed that the Seal material (see section above) was removed, however that's not an excuse to reinsert unsourced or poorly sourced material about living figures. --87.114.13.4 (talk) 21:25, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Lets play another game instead. Lets see how much we can delete from wikipedia as a banned user by bending the BLP rules for contentious material to stuff that should just have a fact tag. Score extra points if we happen to take out sourced material in the process. --BrucePodger (talk) 21:29, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

I invite people to check the edits I made, they speak for themselves. --87.114.13.4 (talk) 21:30, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, when you were blocked, you lost the right to make any edits at all, even good ones. I have blocked this IP for you; if you want to be unblocked, request it using your original account. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 21:32, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

That's actually not the case, please see the difference between blocking and banning. ⇒SWATJester 13:51, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

And if we weren't having to devote resources to your game of "Let's see how much trouble I can cause even after I've been blocked" (banned? You mentioned earlier you had been banned, if it's the same person as earlier), we'd have more resources to look at the articles instead of cleaning up the messy trail of edits-after-block. —C.Fred (talk) 22:05, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Simple trolling, revert his wikipedia space contributions, block, ignore but do make sure to go and check out his claims about BLP after you've reverted his self-satisfied game playing. Don't revert genuine BLP edits in the mainspace though, please. -- Naerii 23:53, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Who is the blocked/banned user? I keep seeing all the reversions here. Can someone provide a link to the ban? Was it ArbCom? We usually revert the contributions of banned users, but not blocked users. The constant reverting here is causing more drama, please stop. Kelly 00:20, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

It'll take me a while to dig through ANI archives, but here is the sockpuppet report Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets/Fredrick day. Check the talk page for a list of more IPs he's used. I edited my original comment to clarify; I don't see anything wrong with people reverting his Misplaced Pages space contributions. -- Naerii 00:23, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't know anything about the case, but the reverting is disruptive. Please either get a checkuser and block the IPs, or just block them if it's obviously him evading his block. But does it really hurt anything to let him have his say here if the comments don't violate any policy? There's no need for anyone to even answer if his points are baseless, and definitely no need to "win" by erasing everything he writes. If this is a real problem then follow the community procedure for a ban, please. Kelly 00:29, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

You can't checkuser the IPs as he keeps logging off and changing them. For more evidence of his disruption 12 (someone notes in that one that a rangeblock is unworkable) and then today he admitted he's doing it to wind Abd up. -- Naerii 00:32, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Then please follow the community procedure for banning, this sounds like maybe a viable candidate for that. But until you do, please stop the constant reverting here, it disrupts things for those of us attempting to follow this noticeboard. Thank you! Kelly 00:35, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

A ban is already in place. No administrator is willing to unblock. But I'll stop reverting. -- Naerii 00:37, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Seems like the ban policy has changed since I last looked at it. I will make a post at AN now. -- Naerii 00:37, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks...yes, I do not see User:Fredrick day at Misplaced Pages:List of banned users. Kelly 01:05, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

WP:BU is manually updated and perpetually out-of-date; not being listed there is certainly not proof that an editor isn't banned. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 18:06, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I've unblocked the IP. It's entirely inappropriate that he was blocked for removing BLP violations. As well, FisherQueen's block of the IP was inappropriate, as he was not banned, merely blocked. We do not simply remove all good contributions from an account because it is blocked. That's the difference between a block and a ban. It is unacceptable that an admin would let their zeal get in the way of BLP, which is non-negotiable. BLP violating edits MUST be removed, no matter by whom.⇒SWATJester 13:55, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

He's not blocked for "removing BLP violations." He's blocked for vandalism, gross incivility, and extensive sock puppetry for block evasion. He's now using remote IPs from all over the world. What is missed here is that any legitimate user may bring his contributions back in. So ... if you think one of this insanely pushy blocked editor's edits is good, just bring it back in, taking responsibility for it. He's trolling here for exactly what Swatjester did, trying to get Wikipedians to fight with each other. Please, take a look at Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets/Fredrick day and, for recent activity, Misplaced Pages talk:Suspected sock puppets/Fredrick day. Just as has been the case with other blocked editors, all identified edits from this user are being routinely reverted, by several editors and several administrators, and this has *nothing* to do with content. If he finds some good edits to do, anyone who cares to take responsibility may restore his work, and that is a lot easier than wheel-warring over an IP block, which was a legitimate block, I'm sure. He refers to it from another IP, he is totally cock-sure that he can ignore his block and get away with it. He is, in fact, banned. Don't think so? Well, just undo the block for User:Fredrick day and take responsibility for it. If I were you, though, I'd duck. Incoming! (This guy is an expert at making complaints about other editors that can sound good, getting people fired up. Don't fall for it, and I don't wonder that sometimes some of us do fall for it. He's done quite a bit of damage in the past.)--Abd (talk) 17:20, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

If this is the case, then just follow the procedure for a community ban. Or, if he is already banned, just provide a link to where this was decided. Simple. Kelly 17:24, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I tried, at first, removing this editor's material, to review the material to see if it was useful. However, not being familiar with so many of the article subjects, I found it impossibly tedious. So I started simply reverting. Sometimes I make mention of the revert in Talk, inviting editors to review his contribution, where it seems there might be some reason (such as BLP). But someone who would like to take responsibility for reviewing this editor's contributions could certainly do so by following block logs and other sources (such as my edits). In undoing his edits, now, I don't even review them. Quite simply, it is too much work. And it is better that those who specialize in the various areas take a look. It's a few seconds to bring one of his edits back in. But what takes time is reviewing each edit to see that it is worthwhile. This editor has openly claimed that he can work better and more freely as a blocked IP editor than legitimately, and he is trying to prove that, to exhaust the community. (And he is continuing vandalism and lying about what is going on, you can see it above.) If we fight with each other over this, he might turn out to be right. If we function as a community, operating by consensus, he will be wrong. --Abd (talk) 17:29, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Who's fighting? If you want community consensus for a ban, then make a post requesting a community ban at WP:AN. Why argue about it here at this noticeboard where no result will be achieve?. Geez. Kelly 17:37, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Notice who started this report. It was the blocked user, doing what he's done before, trying to stir up trouble. I'm not requesting anything here, except calm. The result I'm happy with here is the very "no result" Kelly has suggested. I don't care if the user is blocked or banned, so why should I go to WP:AN? My understanding is that blocked users can be reverted on sight, and that the one doing the revert need not consider content. If content must be considered, it can become impractical to revert a blocked user. But anyone may take that content (or removal of improper content) and fix it. It's not about content, it is about the right of a blocked user to make edits without review. Which is no right at all, whether they are good edits or not.--Abd (talk) 18:48, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Please read WP:BAN - "When reverting edits, care should be taken not to reinstate material that may be in violation of core policies such as Neutrality, Verifiability, and Biographies of Living Persons". One Night In Hackney₃₀₃ 18:52, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Adb, you are mixing up blocked/banned users. The contribs of banned users are removed (if made after they were banned), but the contribs of blocked users are not automatically removed. Kelly 18:58, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Looking for second opinions at Eric Red

This article was brought to my attention when someone requested protection of the page due to repeated removal of sourced content. I would guess that the user removing the content is either the subject themselves or someone who knows the subject, and is removing any reference to a car accident they caused, resulting in 2 deaths. Some of the edit summary reasons for removal were that the situation was "grossly misrepresented" and that the source was untrue, which is one of the issues that should probably be looked in to (I briefly looked at the source and deemed it to be reliable, or I would have removed the content myself, but a second opinion would be nice). It also appears there was a discussion on the talk page about undue weight being placed on the car accident section, and an editor had cut down the section to a reasonable size. During the recent course of mass reversion, the apparent older version was restored, which i reverted back to its pared-down version. I was immediately reverted and would like a second opinion as to which version is more appropriate. Thanks, VegaDark (talk) 23:50, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

The version you restored seems to be more in keeping with WP:UNDUE than the one that others are reverting into place. It looks to me that ThoughUnlessUntilWhether, a 4-day-old account that seems quite experienced, is now over the 3RR. I see you have already blocked 76.172.72.71 (talk · contribs) for 3RR, and that seems correct. This was the IP that was trying to whitewash the article. EdJohnston (talk) 00:53, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I've reverted and protected on the VegaDark version. Disputes on a BLP can be hashed out on a talk page. FCYTravis (talk) 04:51, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Tamara Davies

An almost totally unsourced article (only IMDB) about a minor, though IMHO likely notable US actress. Add to this the likelyhood that the article was originally created by a known false-information vandal, and you have a bad situation. User:David from Downunder has, for months now, been apparently working to fix things there, and has given up and is repeatedly hatchet-stubbing the article. Given the BLP situation and lack of good sourcing, I don't really blame him, but the hatchet-stubbing has been going of for a while now with no progress toward a true good article. I'm not a great researcher of good sourcing, but I think that David really needs some assistance here in building a brand new, properly sourced, article from the ground up.

Update. While I was typing this, the article was A7 speedy deleted. I do think she is likely notable, and will drop a note on the deleting admin's talk page, but whether deleted or not, IMHO anything placed there really should be from scratch. - TexasAndroid (talk) 18:02, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

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