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Revision as of 21:52, 10 April 2008

Estonia B‑class High‑importance

Bronze Night is part of WikiProject Estonia, a project to maintain and expand Estonia-related subjects on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.EstoniaWikipedia:WikiProject EstoniaTemplate:WikiProject EstoniaEstonia B This article has been rated as B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. High This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale. To-do list: edit history watch purge Here are some tasks awaiting attention: Article requests : WikiProject Estonia/Missing articles Assess : Rate each tagged article by quality and importance to the WikiProject if it has not been done. (See Category:Unassessed Estonia articles) Infobox : Add infoboxes to articles without it Maintain : Portal:Estonia Photo : Upload and/or add a photo to articles without it (See Category:Misplaced Pages requested photographs in Estonia) Stubs : Add info to stub-articles and check for start-class.

A pun to Crystal night

Bronze Night is clearly a pun to Crystal night originating from Estonian press due to similarities of both events (both involve certain materials and uncontrolled riots). Why not mention it then? -- Borism 12:47, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

To be honest, the very first time I heard that comparison was from your edit. Would you kindly give some sources supporting that? I am sure that when is properly sourced, no one will have any objections. -- Sander Säde 13:26, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I believe the suggestion is a WP:OR speculation, and may be a marker of a specific cultural bias easily neutralisable by pointing out the common Estonian language naming pattern for events that happened at nighttime, such as et:Pärtliöö veresaun. Διγυρεν_{Εμπροσ!} 13:47, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I was just about to say it but Sander Säde has been faster. In case this opinion is a citation from a published source I wouldn't see any problems with adding it to the article -"according to this and that". So far it seems to be a personal opinion , not even WP:OR I'm afraid--Termer 13:44, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Does this qualify? I'd be glad if there was proper etymology research with peer review of this word, although it seems there isn't. To Sander: this in no way is comparison but rather a pun, don't you agree? -- Borism 14:08, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but blogs are not reliable sources. As blog comments point out, most people don't get the similarity. Although it is a good analogy, in a way. -- Sander Säde 14:44, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Your state of denial is amazing! Is referencing every word with its' etymology required on Misplaced Pages? Frankly, it's fine by me if this is not included, as every person with at least basic knowledge of modern history can understand the pun anyway. -- Borism 08:26, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually, referencing is required, see WP:SOURCE. And since several editors here have not heard of that comparison, I would say that it needs to be referenced or removed as original research. These are core policies of Misplaced Pages, feel free to start discussion in appropriate noticeboard to remove those - good luck with that. -- Sander Säde 08:41, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Do you believe you exist or do you also need confirmation from various sources that your parents had sex? 195.50.211.107 (talk) 16:57, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Existance is no proof one's parents had sex, it could have been with the neighbour. Only a DNA test can really confirm it Martintg (talk) 19:23, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

! Maybe it wasn't a neighbour, but the milkman? 195.50.200.97 (talk) 04:08, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

IIRC this term originated from Eesti Päevaleht, and it is indeed a pun on Crystal Night. I can't find the appropriate citation though. Suva Чего? 19:44, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Edit warring

Folks, there is a silly war going on in the article regarding the description of the Kavkazcenter website. This is completely unproductive. I've requested protection of the page and am requesting that the editors resolve their issue here on the talkpage where this sort of thing is supposed to be discussed - Peripitus (Talk) 04:23, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I have better suggestion. Semi-protection. Discussion with anon IPs is counter-productive, as it only takes IP renewal (one-click operation with most ISPs) or switching to a different proxy for anon user to return and renew his/her disruptive activities, claiming to be different person, not bound by agreement, if agreement is not to his/her liking. RJ CG (talk) 13:26, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Please look at the Edit history - this is not an IP only issue. It appears that on one side of the fence (Chechen separatists propaganda) is Beatle Fab Four, yourself, ip:193.232.... and on the other side of the fence is ip:88.196....., Martintg. Calling other's part in an edit war vandalism is hardly productive. Given the past history of this article, the associated Arbcom case and the lack of any talk discussion full protection appears the only option. Perhaps you would try discussing your point of view on this talk page rather than dismissing it out of hand as counter-productive. None of the editors in this silly war have tried to reach consensus HERE which is the place for it. I'm happy to mediate through the dispute but every starts with people talking to each other - Peripitus (Talk) 23:14, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

A message for Peripitus. Excuse me, but I suspect that you're not a neutral moderator, and I also have many doubts that you are not somehow related to to that martin. Why? I brief inspection of your personal pages shows that both of you are from Australia. He is resided in Tasmania, and you have a Tasmanian barnstar. Moreover, from the history of your edits it is clear, that you never expressed interest in issues related to Russia or Estonia. Then suddenly you became worried about what's going on this very page. Exactly after an anonimous Estonian IP changed description to a "correct version". This also looks very strange. So, please withdraw.

And a message for admin. Before protecting the article, you'd better warn this offensive anonym, who calls others "racists" for using pretty neutral word "separatism", and whose ALL article edits are reverts. Beatle Fab Four (talk) 14:48, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

The above comments are a clear indication of WHY the article should remain protected. Two editors involved in the dispute come here to comment on the dispute, but engage in no actual discussion of the article's content. In answer to User:Beatle Fab Four's assertion about neutrality. I got involved in this article way back (look - I'm the creator) at the end of the Bronze Soldier of Tallinn article battle and related Arbcom case - never ran across Martin (it's a big big country and wiki). I keep this on my watchlist as it's subject is a magnet for silly edit wars. Try playing the ball not the man - perhaps try putting your point of view on the correct wording and why here .... where it belongs ? - Peripitus (Talk) 23:03, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I want to make it crystal clear that while one side of this dispute at least demonstrated it's willingness to discuss, other side completely ignored the call. And why should they discuss anything? "Impartial" admin chimed in to apply "revert to the last edit" policy exactly the moment when article did contain sourced description of the Kavkazcenter and reverted it to suite their tastes. RJ CG (talk) 13:59, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps then you will state HERE your version and a referenced reason as to why it's correct ? Then the other parties have something to discuss ? - Peripitus (Talk) 21:54, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Why should I assume that you would pay more attention to my (exhaustively referenced) version here than you did on the main page, happily reverting it?RJ CG (talk) 14:12, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Still waiting for your rationale as to why you believe "Chechen separatist propaganda website" is more neutral than "Chechen pro-independence website". Martintg (talk) 10:07, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

"Separatist" and "pro-independence" are two sides of the same coin (France opposes Corsican separatists but French president threatend Olympic boycott over Chinese treatment of pro-Tibet independence forces and France went to war once to protect Kosovan pro-independence struggle), but "propaganda" is important. RJ CG (talk) 16:31, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Watching SF sinophobic rampage of yesterday, I thought of better example to illustrate the difference between "separatist" and "pro-independence". Harassment of Estonian embassy in Moscow after Estonian regime (which denied citizenship to 1/3 of population) engaged in grave-digging under the cover of the night had been universally condemned by all "impartial and independent" Western media as Putin's provocation. Harassment of Estonian embassy in Kiev had been completely ignored by selectively blind "impartial" media, as protests in country governed by extremely pro-Western regime are hard to blame on Putin. Harassment of Chinese representatives all over the Western world is very sympathetically covered by the very same media as a rightful protest. Nature of both events is very similar, but one was vilified and another is praised. RJ CG (talk) 12:46, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for this excellent humorous commentary, RJ CH - I haven't laughed like that quite a while. Excellent parody of Russian anti-Estonian propaganda, highly enjoyable to read. Shows very clearly how totally different things can be compared, when you distort the facts enough.

But as for Kavkazcenter issue - if we leave "propaganda" there, then we must be fair to other similar sites as well. For example, regnum.ru has been called "Kremlin proxy" , "channelled back the Kremlin line" and so forth , , . Therefore, we must reluctantly attach "propaganda" sign to Regnum.ru articles and all other sources which cite regnum.ru as the source.

88.196.139.227 (talk) 17:45, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

You are very welcome. It is always nice to witness one's progress from histerycal fits, caused by contradiction between Estonian reality (where Security Police is always ready to act on tips from purebreed Estonians to harass dissident groups) and little thingy called true freedom of speach, to attempts to discuss, however sorry those attempts are. And whoever hids behind this IP (for all I know and care, it can be dynamic), definitely progresses. However, your progress did not yet reach the stage of understanding that empty ridicule does not mean much, unless explanation of my sins is offered. All in good time, pal, all in good time. As far as kavkazcenter goes, there are two things you failed to grasp. One is that lie is not nice (and your Jamestown article did not call regnum "proxy", it reserved this word for Kadyrov & Co.) and another that there's a distinction between POV characteristic given by side in war of words (and Estonian human right organization, picking on Russia and ignoring stateless Russophones at home is nothing but opinionated combatant) and commentary given by independent source without axes to grind (and I had been very careful picking neutral sources or ones critical toward Russia).RJ CG (talk) 20:17, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

RJ CG and the Anon editor: These attacks must stop - this sort of flaming of someone else's opinion is unacceptable on an article talk page. Can you please address the matter of dispute with reliable sources. Peripitus (Talk) 21:52, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

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