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:The past and present editing cabal wants to conceal what's really significant: It is the first case in the U.S. where a dispute over substituted judgment ended with a court order to remove nutrition and hydration from a human being and directly cause her death, not otherwise at risk of death. ] 21:41, 8 August 2005 (UTC) :The past and present editing cabal wants to conceal what's really significant: It is the first case in the U.S. where a dispute over substituted judgment ended with a court order to remove nutrition and hydration from a human being and directly cause her death, not otherwise at risk of death. ] 21:41, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

While I certainly don't agree with Neutrality's POV, the fact is that on Misplaced Pages, anyone who isn't a vandal is entitled to make changes, regardless of invisible instructions, regardless of consensus, regardless of past votes. I don't endorse Neutrality's changes, but this is a wiki, and he does not need to obtain majority approval before he edits. It may be wise and courteous to do so, but it's not a requirement. If an edit goes against general consensus, it will probably be reverted pretty soon.

If I remember correctly, Neutrality was one of the ones who kept ''taking out'' the reference to euthanasia. People may argue that this wasn't euthanasia under Florida law - although it was certainly a violation of the official teaching of Terri's religion concerning euthansia - but I don't see how they can possible argue that the case did not cause a huge debate over euthanasia, among other things.

By the way, since there are doubts over the bulimia theory, I'm wondering do we really need all that stuff about her eating habits and dieting in the "Early Life" section? How reliable is the Miami Herald? (I read the article a few months ago, but you have to register now.) A few interviews with friends? (I can think of a few interviews with friends that would meet with strong opposition if a Schindler supporter tried to insert them!) Can we make the article shorter, not longer? ] ] 22:17, 8 August 2005 (UTC)


==33 affidavits== ==33 affidavits==

Revision as of 22:17, 8 August 2005

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"End of life"

It was debated earlier but seems to have returned: inaccurate terminology with respect to "end of life". Usage of this term presumes that in some sense Terri was at "end of life" in 1990 or prior to 2005. The more accurate (and frankly more neutral) terms to use here are "medical choices for the incapacitated" or "health care proxy". patsw 20:30, 2 August 2005 (UTC)


First paragraph of the court order says:
"The court has carefully reviewed its notes, the transcribed testimony of those non-parties who testified to conversations with Terri Schiavo regarding end of life declaraions, the report of Guardian Ad Litem..."
So, "end of life" seems to be grounded in legal documents. FuelWagon 22:09, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
That's interesting. I'll see if there's a document or analysis disputing the Greer's application of the label "end of life" or at least show that it's usage applied to the Schiavo case to be controversial. A great deal of the order refers to the Browning precedent which applies to medical decisions for the incompetent/incapacitated. patsw 22:48, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

sic

The use of "sic" to describe a spelling transcription error in oral testimony is not appropriate, both in a legal and a journalistic sense. The testimony did not include the misspelling, and, as such, "thus" is not an appropriate term to describe it.Hipocrite 19:07, 4 August 2005 (UTC) (late sig)

You refer to this 17:54, 4 August 2005 Hipocrite (sic removed) diff.
Hello, Hipocrite - you did not sign, so here is your signature from the history: 18:09, 4 August 2005 Hipocrite (sic)
First, I think it is appropriate, because we're not quoting the testimony, but, instead, quoting the page in question (which, parenthetically, but not importantly, quotes the testimony).
However, I was about to change your problem, and put the "" back in -and put a space between the sic and the word described, but I found a LARGER problem: When I went to the purple kangaroo link and did an "Edit-->Find on this page" search, I could NOT find the phrase, that is, the exact quote -there were lots of things, but no exact quote.
So, I issue this Red Alert "Heads Up."--GordonWattsDotCom 18:52, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Apologies on the failure to sign. The phrase is, in fact, in the transcript. The quote, however, is not from the transcript - in fact, it is attributed to "When asked why, he explained." Said explanation was given orally, and, as such, could not be mispelled. The error was not in the source, which is what "sic" - "thus" means. What is the reason to leave a transcription error in an verbal quote? Hipocrite 19:07, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
No problemo - apology accepted. I see you also changed the title back. Maybe I should tone down to a Yellow Alert, huh? OK, I see you say the phrase is in the transcript, but I could not find it -spelled either way; What line is it? If you cite a line, I shall hope to scroll down to said line and look for it by exact location. NOW, on the error question, if you say the original transcript has no error, then why no cite this version, and link to it? Is the link unavailable? CAVEAT: I ask a bunch of questions here; please don't forget one for the sake of the other; if you're able, I'd appreciate answers on all my points. Thx,--GordonWattsDotCom 19:41, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
  • Here is where you can piece together the quote: pg 28 ln 1 "Because I enjoy it and I want to learn more how" pg 28 ln 2 "to take care of Terry."...
pg 28 ln6 "I see myself hopefully finishing school and taking" ln 7 "care of my wife."
pg 28 ln9 "I want to bring my wife home."
pg 29 ln1 "I" ln 2 "married my wife because I love her and I want to spend the" ln 3 "rest of my life with her. I'm going to do that."
  • I am not commenting on the transcript, which is clearly in error - it uses Terry throughout. If we were talking about the transcript then I would want it littered with "sic." We are not, however, talking about the transcript - rather, we're talking about what he said, and he said teari(Brooklyn) or teerrye(Irish), or teahrii(English), or tereuh(Georgia). However, when we quote people, we correct their spellings, because you can't tell the spelling

I agree with Hipocrite. Michael Schiavo did not misspell his wife's name in the oral testimony. So, if we're quoting Michael's spoken words, and just acknowledging the transcript as the source of information, we should say, "Michael said . . . Terri". If we're quoting the court transcript, we should say, "According to the court transcript, Michael said . . . Terry " The article, as it currently stands, is quoting Michael ("Michael explained", rather than, "According to the court transcript, Michael explained".) Ann Heneghan 22:16, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

We have come a long way if the thing we're arguing about is whether or not the word "sic" should be in the article. If we're voting, put me down for "whatever gets the fewest reverts". I'll support either one as long as it means we can drop it as an issue. FuelWagon 00:45, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Thank you, Hipocrite: The reason I couldn't initially find the quotes on the page was due to my searching for a phrase which had been fragmented or broken up by the mandatory line breaks; If I had searched for a smaller section of the phrase, I would have avoided that problem. I generally agree with FuelWagon that this is a minor problem, and don't see it is damaging the article; however, to be actually correct, we look at the textbook definition of "sic", and we find that it is plain and strait forward: If the source is misspelling the word, then we use it. If you want to avoid using it, you might then list the actual source as the real transcript -and either list it's online source as a link to a webpage -or, if not available online, note that it is unavailable online, and cite the second source as having quoted the first source.--GordonWattsDotCom 14:36, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Definition: sic1 (sĭk) adv.

Thus; so. Used to indicate that a quoted passage, especially one containing an error or unconventional spelling, has been retained in its original form or written intentionally.

(Please note that the actual definition does not give any exceptions, such as the one you and Ann suggest, but I think and hope both of my alternatives fit within the meaning of this grammatical rule.) As Mr. Spock might say, "That's what logic would lead us to conclude."--GordonWattsDotCom 14:36, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

The source in this case is the oral testimony of an individual. He did not mispell anything. I have not suggested any exceptions. Can I repeat a question that hasn't been answered yet - "What is the reason to leave a transcription error in an verbal quote?" Can you tell me what is motivating you to contest this? Hipocrite 15:01, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
"Can you tell me what is motivating you to contest this?" Yes: Your method (supported by Ann) implies that the transcript on the GeoCities.com site spells the name correctly. This is incorrect. I offered two alternatives (see above), as I recall, and they appear more accurate than your suggestion. While this is not a major issue, I think it's right to say that "it's the principle of the thing -and principles matter," because this is a template or example/role model for future actions and a discipline of the mind. Does that answer your question?--GordonWattsDotCom 16:22, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
To be clear, your alternatives fail because the intial transcript, and all copies there of, mispelled the name. The individual giving the testimony, however, mispelled nothing, as he did not spell anything. In this case, the source is listed as "Michael testified," not "A transcript reads." Hipocrite 17:03, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Query: Do you mean the original transcript -the one done by the court reporter -misspelled Terri's name. Or, instead, do you mean that the original one got it right and the GeoCities.com web page misspelled or otherwise garbled the spellings? Thanks.--GordonWattsDotCom 17:14, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
To be as clear as I can, there is no official transcript of the hearing in question that does not have Terri mispelled as Terry. The original transcript, the copy on the geocities cite, and all others, unless corrected by a third party, contain the word "Terry" numerous times, and the word "Terri" not once.Hipocrite 17:24, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
"...there is no official transcript of the hearing in question that does not have Terri misspelled as Terry." It seems you're saying the original transcripts misspell it. I know how the court reporters can misspell words, because they type them as fast as we speak -in real time, and probably don't correct them later. So, I guess that it's accurate to say "Michael Schiavo said" and then spell it right, however, I would personally be happier if you could find a link to an official copy of the transcript and report it as "The original transcript reads" and then include "" to show the misspelling. GeoCities is cool, but it is not an official transcript page, unless it is run by some person in authority, yet it is better than nothing. If an "official" source is not available, then we must use the GeoCities page. If you insist on using the "Michael said" method, I will concede that this is technically right. I'm sure Fuel Wagon will be very happy now that this is settled with my preferences above and my acceptance reluctantly here.--GordonWattsDotCom 17:43, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
So, no one ever answred my paramount question: Is an "official" copy of the transcript available somewhere online, and, if so, what's the link? (If you can find it, use BOTH links.)--GordonWattsDotCom 17:43, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Well, if the choice is to say
(1)Michael said "blah Terri"
or
(2)the court transcripts quote Michael as saying "blah Terry "
Then I'd have to vote for (1). FuelWagon 17:48, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Heads up; Neutrality made major changes in intro

I'm not weighing in as of yet, but I wanted to give everybody a heads up: Neutrality has made a lot of changes without discussion or consensus recently. Most appear minor or otherwise innocuous, but one was a major rewrite of the intro. The paragraphs didn't line up, so it's hard to see what the exact changes were, and he doesn't tell us -and I wanted to make a note of it. One of the more notable changes he made was addition of this section:

The judicial and legislative battles over the removal of her feeding tube spawned considerable media coverage during the last few weeks of her life and sparked a fierce debate over bioethics, legal guardianship, federalism, and civil rights.

He ominously omits mention of euthanasia, even though this was the most preeminent issue over which debate was sparked. It smacks of POV pushing, when we take into account his similar edit in the past on this issue, but I'm merely like FOX News: I report; You decide.--GordonWattsDotCom 18:25, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

FYI,

From the CHINESE Wiki, we find this quote: "夏沃丈夫坚持移除其zh:生命支持系统的行为导致了一系列关于zh:生物伦理学，zh:安乐死，zh:监护人制度，zh:联邦制以及zh:民权的严重争论," which is to say:

"...persisted 移除 its life support program behavior has caused a series of about the biological ethics, the euthanasia, the guardian system, the federal system as well as the civil rights serious argument."

From the Hispanic Wiki, we find this: "Theresa Marie Schiavo (3 de diciembre 1963 – † 31 de marzo 2005), más conocida como Terri Schiavo era una mujer estadounidense en estado vegetativo irreversible que abrió un acalorado debate sobre temas como la eutanasia, la bioética, tutela legal, federalismo, y los derechos civiles en su país."

From http://Google.com we can find that the points from the debate were more about euthanasia than any of the other terss, or so I found at last looking:

--GordonWattsDotCom 18:44, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Wagon, here above are my arguments regarding the slight modifications I made on neutrality's version; I make no specific arguments on his original version other than these two:

1) He supported it, and i do, so that is a little bit of consensus; 2) His version is superior to the version that was before, and I tweaked it to make it even better. Additionally, (#3), you may evaluate my changes here in talk at no major risk. --GordonWattsDotCom 20:41, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Heads up. You won't be putting "euthenasia" into the intro. That was one battle already resolved. The version that was stable prior to User:Neutrality's recent edit didn't list any laundry list about whatever topics of dispute may have been raised by the Terri Schiavo case. That you and he support it is not "consensus" by any stretch of the imagination, nor is it an excuse to blow away a version of the intro that's been stable since mediation settled down. FuelWagon 21:18, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
At lot of material, for which there has been a long process of establishing consensus and neutrality, has been swept away by these frequent solo efforts at reorganization. There's too much bad faith editing by pro-Michael POV pushers.
The past and present editing cabal wants to conceal what's really significant: It is the first case in the U.S. where a dispute over substituted judgment ended with a court order to remove nutrition and hydration from a human being and directly cause her death, not otherwise at risk of death. patsw 21:41, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

While I certainly don't agree with Neutrality's POV, the fact is that on Misplaced Pages, anyone who isn't a vandal is entitled to make changes, regardless of invisible instructions, regardless of consensus, regardless of past votes. I don't endorse Neutrality's changes, but this is a wiki, and he does not need to obtain majority approval before he edits. It may be wise and courteous to do so, but it's not a requirement. If an edit goes against general consensus, it will probably be reverted pretty soon.

If I remember correctly, Neutrality was one of the ones who kept taking out the reference to euthanasia. People may argue that this wasn't euthanasia under Florida law - although it was certainly a violation of the official teaching of Terri's religion concerning euthansia - but I don't see how they can possible argue that the case did not cause a huge debate over euthanasia, among other things.

By the way, since there are doubts over the bulimia theory, I'm wondering do we really need all that stuff about her eating habits and dieting in the "Early Life" section? How reliable is the Miami Herald? (I read the article a few months ago, but you have to register now.) A few interviews with friends? (I can think of a few interviews with friends that would meet with strong opposition if a Schindler supporter tried to insert them!) Can we make the article shorter, not longer? Ann Heneghan 22:17, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

33 affidavits

The "diagnosis dispute" section mentions 33 affidavits. I just found a decent link here that explains that these 33 affidavits include Iyer and Hammersfar over the course of a couple of years. Some of these 33 affidavits are already covered in other sections of the article. In other words, 33 misrepresents the number of affidavits that disputed the diagnosis, because it reads as if they were additional affidavits, when then were actually part of some of the already mentioned affidavits. Apparently 17 of the affidavits were submitted Mar 5, just before Terri died according to this. I want to move these 28 into chronological order, and I would like a link to the court's response. Anyone got anything? FuelWagon 21:23, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

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