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Discussion on Jimbos page

I am awake and waiting for your counterarguments. Prandr 11:09 CEST, 14 May 2007

Super datatool!!!

http://de.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Hauptautoren. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Eloquence (talk • contribs)

Misplaced Pages has a second Carlos admin

My dear Wikipedian Kim Bruning,
Thank you for your participation in my RFA, which closed successfully with 29 supports, 1 opposed, and 3 neutral. No matter if you !voted support, oppose, neutral, or even if you just stopped by to make a comment, I thank you for taking the time to drop by. Since I am a new admin, if you have any suggestions or concerns, feel free to inform me of them. Special thanks to Carlossuarez46 for encourage me and nomination. Thank you and good day.

Re: returning fire

I'd be perfectly happy to discuss things with you publicly. My (ongoing) travel has unfortunately limited my ability to respond to your points in the current discussion in detail, for which I must apologize.

But, to briefly answer your question: I would say that I hold such an opinion because I am an arbitrator—because, in other words, I spend much of my time dealing with the most odious examples of Wikipedian behavior, and because I tend to deal with practical policy enforcement rather than theoretical policy writing. With all due respect, I think you don't have enough exposure to the reprehensible activity that regularly occurs on Misplaced Pages.

It is all very well to argue about whether policy should, in general, be descriptive or prescriptive, and so forth. But the fact of the matter is that a significant number of key policies function indistinguishably from normative ones in practice, even if they are not necessarily written that way. "Thou shalt not, or else" is a fundamental principle that pervades administrative actions, dispute resolution mechanisms, and so forth. It's not that editors don't do X; it's that they do do X, and get banned for it.

More generally, it's my firm belief that some policy is much easier to understand for the average editor if it's written in an normative manner. "Don't proclaim that your fellow editors are vile sub-humans deserving extermination" is more obvious than some vaguely-worded non-normative variant thereof. ("Editors that proclaim that other editors are vile sub-humans are generally banned from the project"? But even that is merely a fig-leaf over a what is very much a prescriptive underlying policy.)

And once we have such essentially normative policy—deviation from which results in Unpleasant Consequences—it becomes necessary that we have some reasonable way of modifying it other than deviating from it unilaterally. Kirill 18:04, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Kim, help me out regarding a recent non-vote on TOR accounts

I've got this vague memory reading through WP:VPP a month or two ago that a "vote" passed 1-0 to allow TOR accounts to register. True? One of them just got indef blocked after causing some trouble in our WT:MOSNUM discussions. None of us are particularly happy having to deal with this. Has there been any subsequent discussion that you know of? - Dan Dank55 (talk)(mistakes) 03:17, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Heh no. The Wikipedia_talk:IP_block_exemption (which was VERY adequately advertised , very much ahead of time! ), is about something else.

There's this corner case where you have a valid, unblocked account, and yet your ip-address is banned for whatever reason (this can happen if you're trying to use an anonymizing service, or if you are an editor in good standing editing from a particularly obstreperous school, for instance). Editors in good standing can request for the wiki to still allow them to log in, in that case. It wouldn't even visibly hurt if the wiki behaved that way by default, so it's rather uncontroversial.

In conclusion, if you've got one of them familiar trolls tooling around trying to avoid blocks via tor, ZAP 'EM! Have fun! ;-)

--Kim Bruning (talk) 15:16, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I read the links from that page, I'm a little more clued in now ... a little :) Thanks. - Dan Dank55 (talk)(mistakes) 16:24, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Governance question

Would you object to any system that made it impossible for any minority to kill a change in policy development? That made all the individual personalities that currently dominate various policy areas completely irrelevant, as individuals? Why, or why not, if I can ask? Lawrence Cohen § t/e 22:11, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

The question confuses me. How do you think that policy is currently "made"? --Kim Bruning (talk) 22:25, 28 April 2008 (UTC) I'm worried about the steamrolling the minority part there though ...

You and I are already in agreement in this, remember from last year? :) Policy is either someone writing down a practice that is already done, describing it, and the community supports both of those; or policy is a bright new idea someone pencils down, that the community supports it, and it becomes the law of the land as well.

As far as minorities, they get steamrolled constantly here; consensus is not intended to be all-inclusive and never will be. If a super-vocal 5 people oppose an RFA, and 80 support, does the RFA fail is the 5 can't be swayed? What if 80 support a block on a fellow, but 5 oppose? What if 80 support a modification to WP:N but 5 oppose? Does the proposed change not happen if the 5, or 10 can't be swayed? Should those 5 or 10 have the authority or ability to blockade the proposed change unless they can be swayed? We're no more an experiment in democracy than we are one in social interaction and negotiation/discussion... Lawrence Cohen § t/e 22:33, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

(ec) But all these community pages are not the bread-and-butter of wikipedia. Have you heard of these strange things called articles? :-) Though even on RFA and such pages where rough consensus is used, one or more people can turn things around, when that is warranted. Pages like WP:N , and recently when I edited on WP:NPOV, well, those pages work just like articles again, and a couple of clueful people can make a big difference. And that's a good thing! --Kim Bruning (talk) 22:59, 28 April 2008 (UTC) the strength of argument overrides numbers. From time to time people say I'm dreaming that fact... and then I have to go and prove them wrong again, when I really should be coding :-P<sigh>

Yes, they can turn things around with strong arguments, but strong arguments alone do not carry the day. I can have a strong view on a policy change for WP:N, that might be incredibly sound, and 10 people may agree with me. But if the other 70-90 don't, what then? Do I get to ram my change through? Thats the problem--consensus doesn't scale for this sort of thing, and most of these pages are unwatched by a wide variety of people. You get all the policy wonks and people that spend 85% of their time on project space only in most discussions. Putting it all in as visible a space as RFA or ANI would draw in a wide array of people with diverse views into a structured discussion to see what a "true" consensus from this site's user is. It depowers the policy wonks as they don't get to "decide" anything per se, but their views if sound can still sway all the new "voters". I think thats the point. This way, only true community consensus will fly, and no one small microcosm of editors gets power over policy in any direct way. Lawrence Cohen § t/e 23:04, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

70-90 people won't show up all at once. But say that they do. You need to convince each of these people about the merits of your idea (and get the other 10 supporters to help). If you fail, that's that. If you succeed, you win the day.

But 70-90 is a huge number, at which point any kind of wiki-activity becomes impossible (it's getting really close to Dunbar's number). Putting it all in a visible space like RFA or ANI would send you way past Dunbar's number. Dunbar's number is for people what critical mass for uranium, if you go past it without some kind of moderator ... BOOM! ;-)

So Don't Do That.

Now if you can get people to show up over time instead (as documented by WP:SILENCE), you can slowly but calmly work out your differences as per WP:CCC, in a calm, controlled way. But you don't need to foist all this work on everyone all at once in the first place. All you need is for some people to document what the actual policy already is in the community, and you're done. It only takes one person to correct a mistake, not 1000. :-) --Kim Bruning (talk) 23:18, 28 April 2008 (UTC) Note that by some lucky accident, the wiki seems to be one of the most effective moderator systems ever invented. Strange!

But this still assumes that consensus is dependent on convincing everyone to follow your lead. RFA is broken, but its format and structure are outstanding. 1) Here is my suggestion, and why you should go for it. 2) We have these questions about your suggestion. 3) Here are my answers. 4) I support this idea! 5) I oppose this idea! 6) Whats the final consensus? Done. Centralized, for Maximum Visibility. What is wrong with a wide array of people deciding on policy?

I keep asking, would you mind answering? Is there anything wrong with an idea that takes policy control away from the policy cliques that currently dominate them? Lawrence Cohen § t/e 23:24, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

RFA is broken, because the format and structure are broken. I used to give automatic support to anyone who reformatted their RFA, because it demonstrated they knew that fact. Then people began to frown upon that. Then I stopped caring about RFA.

I must have missed that question, because I've never encountered this clique you speak of... or have I.... hmmm Name names? :-) --Kim Bruning (talk) 23:29, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

We have to disagree then; I love the RFA format. Discussion for the sake of discussion is a waste of everyone's time. Discussion structured to achieve ends that benefit Misplaced Pages = good. I listed examples on the governance page. You still haven't answered my question. Let me rephrase it. Is there anything wrong with an idea that takes policy control and strictly places it in the hands of the community in a centralized location, to prevent any possible minority or small group from impeding the will of the wider community? Lawrence Cohen § t/e 23:34, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree that discussion must go somewhere, that's what mediation always tries to achieve too. You state that RFA is broken, but then don't think to blame the system? Alright... it's your logic.

There are several things wrong with your rephrased question, yes.

• centralized locations should be avoided on wikipedia, for fear of passing dunbar's number
• The group of clueful old people on wikipedia is a rapidly shrinking group, as people leave and people join every day, you would be denying their input too. You would be denying input from groups of experts in diverse fields, those are cliques too. In fact, the wikipedia community consists entirely of small cliques, and locking out small cliques... who will be left to have a say? First_they_came...
• So who is this community that's left? Aren't you proposing placing policy control in the hands of some commission? :-)
• So you are assuming that the actions you propose would prevent the will of the wider community to be impeded. I don't think so. I think the medicine is worse than the malady here. You'd place the wider community into an absolute deadlock, and the will of the "wider community" will be unheard, and the will of the minority will be unheard.

--Kim Bruning (talk) 23:48, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Centralized discussion is key so that the policy wonks don't control all the discussion. Someone mailed me Radiant! as an example, yourself and Until 1=2 could be another. "Old hands" are not the best hands in all situations. How would this scenario possibly exclude anyone? I'm not advocating putting a "commission" in charge of anything. Read my example and please respond there. My interpretation of everyone's feedback, if I'm understanding everyone right, would basically de-power the policy wonks, and that would be the only drawback. If currently 5-10 "old people" tend to dominate control over a given policy page, this new sort of model would make them--you, Radiant, and Until, for example--just one of many. Everyone exactly equal in weight of your base voice, and base value as a contributor. Your history, my history: doesn't matter. Only the argument we present on the centralized discussion for others to digest. Kirill's proposal is actually rather clever as it's an enforced wiki-way, that would force all users to be exactly equal in policy decisions, unless they present a truly evocative and insightful commentary. Lawrence Cohen § t/e 23:54, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Centralized systems grant ultimate power to policy wonks (and giving them just 1 central place to control is handing it to them on a platter). Discussion of the canonical example might cause you to invoke Godwin's law (although IIRC Godwin says that this case would be permissible :-) ). A decentralized system is less prone to subversion. This is one of many reasons why modern governance texts support decentralized governance, and why centralized management is mostly discouraged, even in military circles, to a large extent. --Kim Bruning (talk) 00:21, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Check here. Lawrence Cohen § t/e 22:55, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Supplemental question: would it be a bad thing if the so-called old-timers had no more policy weight or authority than anyone else? I think not. My voice is entitled to as much power as yours. Or Raul's. Or Slim's. Or Risker, or Jehochman, or Ned Scott, or Until, or Sidaway, or Giano, or anyone else on any policy matter. We are all meant to be equal on policy matters. Lawrence Cohen § t/e 23:56, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't have more weight or authority than you do. But I do have some bumps experience you don't, so it might be a good idea to learn from my mistakes wisdom.

People are all equal, but their ideas can have differing merit. :-) --Kim Bruning (talk) 00:21, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Interaction between avatars and the underlying personality

• NPR, Slashdot

Does the assumed persona/avatar of a user online affect the "real" personality? Where can one draw the line? I thought you'd be interested in this. ~Kylu (u|t) 22:22, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I haven't gotten any prettier... ;-) --Kim Bruning (talk) 22:51, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Consensus

Is editing the primary method of determining consensus, or is discussion? Hiding T 11:34, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Both are important elements. :-) --Kim Bruning (talk) 14:31, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I think I covered it then. ;) Hiding T 19:25, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

\o/ --Kim Bruning (talk) 19:26, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

ZUCHT!

Ik weet het niet ]. Begin April zou je voor 7 April alles gedaan hebben. Ik heb toen in een progress report aan mijn vader en de investeerder gemeld dat je alles half april af zou hebben. Het is morgen 1 Mei. De todo list is nog niet af, er is nog niets aan gedaan. Mijn vader vraagt zich af waarom. Ik kan geen dingen zelf doen voor die lijst af is, dat hebben we in Maart al besproken. Mijn vader eist een nieuw progress report met daarin progressie van mijn kant. Ik krijg anders geen cent meer. Wat dus betekend dat als mijn laatste geld nu op is, tegen aanstaande maandag. Dan ben ik bankroet. Nu meld je in je laatste mail dat je eerst ook werk voor Berto moet doen. En vervolgens hoor ik weer niets. Maar ik zie wel alle tijd die je op wikipedia besteed. Ik weet niet meer wat ik moet zeggen of doen. Ik zit nu helemaal klem. En ik ben niet blij. Absoluut niet blij. Waerth (talk) 23:02, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia_talk:Lectures#Proposal

The above link will link you to a current event that should be addressed on the Lectures talk page. Oh and hi kim! SynergeticMaggot (talk) 02:23, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Hey, Kim

It's AnimeFreak. What's goin' on? Give me a holler at general@afreak.ca with your ICQ or something. :) -- Colin 70.71.230.173 (talk) 06:59, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Lecture

Due to an immediate personal emergency, I will not be able to make the lecture. I am so sorry for the short notice. Circumstances are completely unexpected. Vassyana (talk) 14:47, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Governance reform and AGF challenge

Hi! I've been reading through some of your comments on WT:Governance reform. I find hard rules and binding decisions as appealing as the next person, but I also find your arguments very compelling.

Working within a corporate hierarchy, I see first-hand the tension between being bold to get things done, and waiting for the formal decision-making process to complete. When I do employee performance reviews there are usually questions on the form about display of management skills. Non-manager employees almost always skip these questions on the grounds that they simply have zero opportunity to exercise management skills. I tell them that the true test of management skills is exercising influence over others when you don't have a manager title, or when they don't report to you. I guess this corresponds to building consensus.

I followed the link to WP:Lectures, and I'm sorry to find that I missed the session on Fill's AGF challenge. I'm sure that you're really busy, but I'd appreciate any feedback you might have on my answers. Cheers, Bovlb (talk)

Rosalind Picard

Your name came up there as someone who has contacted the subject of the BLP article. I hate to keep asking you to look at things, but if you're already involved, any consensus-finding skills you can donate would be very helpful there. — Carl (CBM · talk) 15:54, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Pssst

. I reverted your change to BLP earlier. :) Lawrence Cohen § t/e 16:29, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

That's fine. I'll give folks 24 hours to come up with evidence that this practice is indeed helpful and not harmful. That should be pretty easy, if they do use it as often as they say. (I've just never observed it working so far, but that could easily be just me, right? :-) ) --Kim Bruning (talk) 17:17, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't know what you consider "working," but 3RR or no 3RR, I will never allow a revert that I believe to be libelous, defamatory, privacy-invading, insinuating or inherently unfair to stay on this encyclopedia. If that means they pry the admin bit from my cold, deadminned fingers... then that's the day Misplaced Pages dies for me. The day "civility" and "fair play" outweigh the idea that our biographical subjects are entitled to fair and accurate treatment is the day this project jumps the shark. JMO. FCYTravis (talk) 17:22, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I've seen at least one case in very recent history, where this 3RR exemption actually reduced the accuracy of a BLP, and I was biting my nails because people who have been in the news were actually invited to look over email, while the entire edit war was ongoing.

So, your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to show that the practice works to indeed ensure that BLPs are accurate (or failing to show this, cease the practice). If you are certain that it does, show me. Alright? --Kim Bruning (talk) 17:29, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Mea culpa

I am interested in your feedback and possibly collaboration on an essay I am working on. For some reason I think your special unusual creative way of thinking will be productive on this page: User:Until(1 == 2)/Mea culpa _(1 == 2) 19:11, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Delay

This probably pushed things back considerably and will keep it locked for a bit longer. Maybe I am mistaken, but my impression was that things were well on their way to consensus, which was broken by that edit. Oh dear ... Well it will just have to progress along its natural path. Interesting to watch however.--Filll (talk) 22:01, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Could be, could not be, it's hard to tell. (And I'm not always after consensus at any price anyway.) It was worth a shot. We'll see what happens. <crosses fingers> --Kim Bruning (talk) 22:08, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

FYI

Lawrence Cohen § t/e 15:52, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Can we talk?

On Irc that is. I'll be in wikipedia-en if you have time. SynergeticMaggot (talk) 16:09, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

What's up?

Haven't said hello in a while, so I thought I'd just say hi! ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 03:25, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Updated IPEXEMPT

Over to you. FT2  11:32, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages talk:IP block exemption/log

Hi Kim. Thanks for setting this page up. Can, I ask, though -- what does this mean? Thanks! Sam Korn 21:13, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

You had mail

Hi, Kim. Did my e-mail of May 6 get mislaid, or are you snowed under with them? Or ignoring me? Bishonen | talk 21:45, 10 May 2008 (UTC).

Is this already a statement in policy?

"Don’t close discussions that you participated in. This applies especially in community discussions that lead to administrative actions."

Is this already written down? Perhaps is has been too obvious (but apparently not!). --SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:44, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

CFD got fat

Thought you might find this interesting. --Anticipation of a New Lover's Arrival, The 14:08, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Biographies of living persons

Caution, you are edit warring. 3RR is a bright line, not an entitlement. This (second) revert is not a good idea, in my view. You may find yourself blocked if you revert the reversion of your removal again. ++Lar: t/c 01:18, 12 May 2008 (UTC)