Misplaced Pages

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Katha - The Art Of Story Telling In India should be renamed

Moved to Talk:Katha - The Art Of Story Telling In India

Official Election Notice

The 2008 Board election committee announces the 2008 election process. Wikimedians will have the opportunity to elect one candidate from the Wikimedia community to serve as a representative on the Board of Trustees. The successful candidate will serve a one-year term, ending in July 2009.

Candidates may nominate themselves for election between May 8 and May 22, and the voting will occur between 1 June and 21 June. For more information on the voting and candidate requirements, see <http://meta.wikimedia.org/Board_elections/2008>.

The voting system to be used in this election has not yet been confirmed, however voting will be by secret ballot, and confidentiality will be strictly maintained.

Votes will again be cast and counted on a server owned by an independent, neutral third party, Software in the Public Interest (SPI). SPI will hold cryptographic keys and be responsible for tallying the votes and providing final vote counts to the Election Committee. SPI provided excellent help during the 2007 elections.

Further information can be found at <http://meta.wikimedia.org/Board_elections/2008/en>. Questions may be directed to the Election Committee at <http://meta.wikimedia.org/Talk:Board_elections/2008/en>. If you are interested in translating official election pages into your own language, please see <http://meta.wikimedia.org/Board_elections/2008/Translation>.

For the election committee,
Philippe Beaudette

Some Comments to be heard

I do not want to sound rude, but I have some opinions to share with Misplaced Pages itself. I don't want to start any war or anything. I don't want to get banned I just want to express some concerns that I have. In my opinion I think Misplaced Pages is edited by hypocrites.

I do not like some of the policies that are around. In Wikicommons you are suppose to give a picture credit for the original author (for example a picture like Mona Lisa and we said the author was Me that would be incorrect because it was painted by Leonardo Da Vinci.) But in anime articles though, in Misplaced Pages, they say the romanticized English name is the official and the correct name, but that isn't true. The English didn't create the anime or manga you should leave the names the way the original author had attended them, not the English licensed and the way the English intended them.(I know its an English Misplaced Pages, but you're not giving credit to the write author.) It goes back to the Mona Lisa you are saying the English created the names when they didn't.

In certain articles such as the buttocks article they are using photoshopped images of a womans butt and a mans butt. Those aren't what butts look like. And on the discussion page they say that the womans hair is disgusting and it wouldn't look right. People are people they do have hair. Its all right to show a hairy butt of zebra all natural, but not a humans butt we have to photo shop those images. They have normal human private parts such as the vagina and the penis, but a butt isn't okay.

This one is all cleared up, but it still makes a point another valid point. Recently in the human feces article people were saying a picture of human poo was gross and made them sick. That is why they removed the first image. But in the animal feces article it showed a nice picture of horse crap piled up high. Its okay to show animals poo, but not human poo. This has been cleared up now with many complaints of there not being a picture, but still its kinda hypocritical to have pictures of animals poo and not humans poo.

Well I hope you heard this and read this. I hope you understand my opinions and my concerns. I don't want to disrespect anyone. I just want people to realize the silliness going on and the problems that people might see.

Thank You

Always

Cardinal Raven

Cardinal Raven (talk) 21:52, 30 April 2008 (UTC)Cardinal Raven

I agree that the article on human feces ought to display a photograph of human feces. It's clearly on-topic and appropriate in that particular article.

As for using Romanized names, it's conventional to use standardized or official English-language versions of names on English Misplaced Pages, because that's the name our readers know these subjects by; it's not an issue of credit but of familiarity. The same applies to many world cities. We still list the native name as well. Dcoetzee 17:29, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I still think the native name should be the official name not the romanticized no matter the fact that this is English Misplaced Pages. Since I watch anime in the Japanese format the native names are correct. But other then that at least thank you for replying to this.

But what about the photo bucket pictures of the human buttocks? You never gave me an answer on that one. Cardinal Raven (talk) 04:41, 2 May 2008 (UTC)Cardinal Raven

I felt free to give my opinion on the human feces talk page, I think removing the picture would be a ridiculous act if it is for such reasons that "we all know what it looks like". I will most likely be participating in discussions that take place there. Regards, Zouavman Le Zouave 13:08, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. The picture of human feces is unnecessary and inappropriate People should be able to read about it with out seeing a picture. The least that can be done is to put the picture on a separete page or hidden in a drop down menu fashion. The picture of animal feces is less repulsive and shown in manure form. We don't have photos of people having oral sex or penile vaginal intercourse but we have drawings instead. We do have photos of animals having sex though. Do you want to see pictures on wikipedia of a man jackhammering his penis into a woman's vagina? We don't have photographs of beastiality but we to have drawings of it. Do you want to see pictures that are legal in some states and countries but not others on wikipedia? We'd have to move wikipedia's servers from florida to texas or california if pictures like that on here. Where do we draw the line? I think it is only a matter of time before someone argues for the inclusion of picture of virtual child porn on here (after all the supreme court says it is legal). Maybe a non photographic picture of human feces would suffice. --209.104.244.164 (talk) 01:17, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

And I disagree with you 209. We have picture of real men's penis have you read the article. We have real pictures of woman's vagina. I also disagree because its silly to say that an animal shit is not as repulsive as human shit. They are bough just as repulsive, but at the same time there are necessary.71.142.208.226 (talk) 06:42, 3 May 2008 (UTC)Cardinal Raven

I see no evidence that either photo in buttocks has been modified beyond perhaps removing the background. In any case, it's irrelevant until and unless someone can produce a better picture. Nil Einne (talk) 11:00, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

The womans butt is normal now. But I have a question have you looked at the man's buttock in that article? It doesn't look real. Its textured smooth and it looks like a 3D image or something. Its not real. I can tell its not real.71.142.208.226 (talk) 07:04, 9 May 2008 (UTC)Cardinal Raven

Removal of metric units at St. Stephen's Episcopal School (Austin, Texas)

Can people take a look at the removal of metric units at St. Stephen's Episcopal School (Austin, Texas).

I added a metric conversion in parentheses. An editor removed them with weird summary 'remove unsupported claim' plus a 'warning' on my talk page that I need to cite sources. I just assumed that the editor was just confusing the unit conversion with some other editor's copyedit. I note that the editor has less than 250 contributions, 19 of which relate to that article . I added the conversion again but it was reverted again with a similar summary and 'warning'.

Can anyone else shed any light on this? Lightmouse (talk) 22:15, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Two different editors have now attempted to add metric units to that article. Both editors have been reverted by the owner of the article. Does anybody else want to try? Lightmouse (talk) 19:51, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Messages, messages everywhere

We've got a {{cmbox}} and {{imbox}} message at the top of the watchlist, we've got a Wikimania 2008 message at the top of every page, and I just noticed a message asking me to donate that disappeared when I logged in. Are we going message mad? They're everywhere! And they're breeding like rabbits. I don't nessecarily wnat them to be prohibited, just controlled and restricted to important messages. We receive no notification of interface changes outside of very select circles, yet we get a message telling us about a new template that's not even been finalised yet and some Africa-central event...... Dendodge.Talk 11:31, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Please define "important" for everybody. That way we'll know where to start.—RJH (talk) 21:04, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, the watchlist message can be hidden, and you can only access a watchlist if you're logged in... Spencer 01:46, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

By important, I mean interface changes, policy changes etc. I just noticed another one telling me how to navigate, and that one looks really ugly on my school's IE6! I know you can hide the watchlist one - but that's not the only one visible when lgged in - I think we'd get more unregistered users liking the site if we don't constantly spam them with adverts. Maybe a little notice about donating, a 'How to navigate' link in the sidebar and messages about important changes instead of the stupin watchlist or Wikimania ones...... Dendodge..Talk 10:10, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

NEED BASIC DEFINITIONS/ASSISTANCE!

I have just joined Misplaced Pages and edited many articles to a fair quality already. Under my 'My contributions page', some of the articles I have edited say (top) next to them. What does this mean?

Can anyone tell me please? Thanks in advance! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Domiy (talk • contribs) 04:25, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

That means that your edit is the most recent to the page (and so "top" of the history). Confusing Manifestation(Say hi!) 05:22, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

No, it means you have edited the unnamed top section of the article. Phlegm Rooster (talk) 05:33, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

No it doesn't. Confusing Manifestation's definition is correct; as soon as someone else edits a page, the "(top)" text disappears. EVula // talk // ☯ // 05:35, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Porn for prudes

Chelsea Schilling, Is Misplaced Pages wicked porn?, WorldNetDaily, May 6, 2008 is a perfect example of what my late friend Sharma Oliver used to call "porn for prudes": "Oh, tut tut, isn't that salacious! Look here, isn't that awful! And here!"

God forbid that the article penis should show a penis. Or that an encyclopedia should attempt to cover pornography. Or that a list of sex positions contains illustrations (if anyone can get off on that particular set of images, better not let them near an art gallery. Or an anatomy textbook). She also seems particularly outraged that we are not outraged by homosexuality. - Jmabel | Talk 18:25, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

OK, but what exactly is encyclopedic about a list of human sexual positions? There are many extraneous articles in Misplaced Pages; and even more extraneous multimedia. The lack of centralized editing is both Misplaced Pages's strength and weakness. Let's not pretend that Misplaced Pages is perfect. DeeKenn (talk) 19:36, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Why would that not be encyclopedic? It's the subject of some very, very old books. That said, anyone who takes WorldNetDaily seriously is pretty far gone anyway. That group is rather distant from reality. -- Kesh (talk) 21:03, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Crimeny, the book itself is noteworthy for its literary value, not its age. So, in your case, an article completely unrelated to it (as I'm sure you know the Kama Sutra is not primarily about sexual positions) is without basis. It is these uncontrollable and nonsensical tangents that retard Misplaced Pages's academic acceptance.

As to what is encyclopedic? I'll put a twist on Potter Stewart's line: "I don't know what is encyclopedic, but I know what isn't." DeeKenn (talk) 21:43, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

"Crimeny"? Who uses that word anymore? ;) In case you can't tell, my comment was mostly tongue-in-cheek.

That said, a pure list probably isn't encyclopedic, but I don't see why (an) article(s) about commonly noted sexual positions wouldn't be. As for "I'll know it when I see it," I've never found that to be a particularly useful measure. -- Kesh (talk) 03:46, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

What exactly is not encyclopedic about a list of sexual positions? It's discussed in encyclopedias about sex and is basic material about one of the most important human acts.--Prosfilaes (talk) 14:09, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Have you seen the content of commons:Category:Peter Klashorst? You sure prudes only?Geni 23:44, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Cum splattered bums; how could they be encyclopedic? Do we have an article devoted to where ejaculation may land after intercourse? DeeKenn (talk) 14:07, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Pearl necklace (sexuality), for one. Powers 14:42, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

A good example of a nonsense article. A dictionary should track and catalog slang, not an encyclopedia. 14:51, 8 May 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by DeeKenn (talk • contribs)

I tend to agree, but most of my efforts to have dictionary-ish articles deleted fail. Powers 14:55, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Added to Misplaced Pages:Press coverage. Bovlb (talk) 21:14, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

There are quite a few subjects that get special treatment on Misplaced Pages. If you try to remove something sexual, people scream censorship, even though this particular thing might not be encyclopedic. A list of sexual positions is one of those things, in my opinion, and the fact that Kama Sutra is notable is completely irrelevant. If the "list of sexual positions" article had nothing to do with sex, I think it would already be gone. Equazcion •✗/C • 00:09, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

(Edit conflict)

Here we go again. Anyone want to take bets on how long it takes for someone to yell "not censored not censored not censored not censored..." The problem is that the lack of finesse to the four-word policy "Misplaced Pages is not censored" may prevent us from taking steps to preserve the "encyclopedic" nature of Misplaced Pages. The fact is, Misplaced Pages is censored -- we edit out unsupported assertions, personal attacks, trivial or non-notable content and lots of other stuff we don't feel appropriate for the encyclopedia. We need a policy along the lines of "No topic is 'too sensitive' for Misplaced Pages, but all material must be presented in a manner appropriate for an encyclopedia." That means anatomy-textbook-type pictures of human breasts are OK, but hardcore pornography isn't.

Why should we bother? Well, I don't want to look at a picture of men engaged in anal sex, if, as the WND article describes, I visit the fluffer article. I may hear the word "fluffer" somewhere and log on to Misplaced Pages to find out what it is. What if I'm at work or school and innocently visit that page? Don't laugh -- I was reading the Oscar Wilde article at work and clicked on buggery, since I didn't know what the term referred to (it's not commonly used in the US). I was shocked to be redirected to the page on anal sex. Fortunately, there was no picture on the top of the page, or I may have wound up fired! Even if I know what a fluffer is, I still should be able to visit the page without seeing hardcore gay porn. I'm sorry if this makes me a bigot, but gay sex makes me sick -- heck, I don't want to see hardcore hetero sex, either. I should be able to read encyclopedic content about the pornography industry without actually seeing porn.

I have on several occasions recommended a partial solution to this issue -- require that pages with "not safe for work" content be labeled at the top (similar to a "spoiler warning"); that NSFW content be placed "below the fold" on landscape monitors; and that users be given the opportunity to click and view the page without the NSFW content. In addition, editors should be cautioned to make sure the NSFW content is really necessary. This is not censorship; this is just saving people from getting shocked sick, fired or suspended from school. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 00:15, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

An NSFW is a useless distinction for students/younger people. Something a little more clear would be better: This topic may be too graphic OR This topic contains elements of an adult nature and may be offensive OR may be inappropriate for minors. Straight-forward, no censorship; it seems like common sense. DeeKenn (talk) 14:07, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Should this discussion be at the Policy page? -- Mwalcoff (talk) 00:20, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages takes place in an alternate universe, where work doesn't actually exist. I mean, don't get me wrong, I like it. But it does tend to have a kind of socialist/hippy/rose-tinted-shades-view of the world. It's a new political agenda, where adults are completely open and honest with each other and even children about sex, people aren't uncomfortable with nudity, even in professional environments, etc. etc. It's a nice thought but not realistically compatible with the current world. I'll enjoy it til it dies though, which might have to happen eventually. Equazcion •✗/C • 00:27, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Socialist, thats another label to add to my list, its a first lol. Realist ('Come Speak To Me') 00:49, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

• I'm sorry, but the word "fluffer" makes a great case for this, but almost ALL of our objectionable content is found on articles where nobody at work who is concerned should be visiting them - such as hardcore pornography or penis. Additionally, most work filters are going to pick up on key terms, not images. So, regardless of whether you are at school or work and curious about "Fluffer" you will be at risk photo or no photo. But most of Mwalcoff's arguments I disagree with - but since it is mostly my photography on the pornography articles, that is to be expected. --David Shankbone 00:53, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
  • (ec)Yeah, I think we've all seen this argument before. But really, this isn't just any encyclopedia. At the office, if you open up a book, it's pretty hard to end up on the penis page unless that was the reason you opened the book in the first place. Misplaced Pages is website where half the words in every article are links, and it's made for people to browse around randomly. I remember one specific time when I accidentally clicked on the link for analingus, and was treated to a particularly, shall we say explicit photo. The argument that "if you don't want to see porn, don't search for things related to it" doesn't work quite as well online, even within this site alone. It's just too easy to find even when you're not actually looking for it. Again I'm not exactly complaining, just stating once again an incompatibility of Misplaced Pages with the real world. Equazcion •✗/C • 01:08, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
    • How about "if you don't want to see porn, don't use Misplaced Pages"? Powers 13:14, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
      • I don't think that sentiment is what we're aiming for. For one thing, if that were a guiding principle here, we would be a strictly over-18 site, but we're not. Equazcion •✗/C • 13:17, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
        • Well certainly "Be very very careful using Misplaced Pages if you don't want to see porn," then? That's basically what the disclaimer says, isn't it? Powers 13:24, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
          • What about "Don't go to an article if you don't want to see the subject of the article"? Expect to see a Zebra at Zebra. Expect to see hats at hat. Expect to see examples of pornography at pornography.... --David Shankbone 14:06, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
            • Uh, that's been addressed a couple of times -- people sometimes visit articles at which they don't know what to expect, either because the word is unfamiliar (e.g., fluffer) or because a piped link or redirect was misleading. Powers 14:41, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
              • What about rape, David? -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:14, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
                • Don't be stupid - nobody has advocated graphic depictions of illegal acts, such as rape and murder. You are only making yourself sound extreme by asking such bone-headed questions. --David Shankbone 01:22, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
                  • I was only pointing out the inherent absurdity in your idea that one should not go to an article without seeing the subject matter in image form. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 04:23, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

(Xxec) As an avid reader, which nowadays makes me "non-visually-literate", I would prefer to investigate any particular topic of choice, where the wording has been extensively gone over and debated, without being confronted with the images that a relatively smaller number of contributors have decided are necessary to describe the subject. Wording can be extensively debated, images are much more subject to the not-censored argument and the outlook of some few people. Franamax (talk) 01:40, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

The only real solution there is to browse with images turned off in your browser Preferences. -- Kesh (talk) 03:44, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

• One should never assume that a reader is expecting NSFW content. As I described above, a reader could very easily happen across an article like fluffer unaware of its meaning. And even if the reader is aware what the term means, he still might not be expecting NSFW images, especially above the fold. It's a cop out to say that people just shouldn't visit articles like penis or hardcore pornography at work or school. What if I'm in a church group or the PTA and am researching pornography to report on its dangers or lack thereof? I should be able to get unbiased, "encyclopedic," scientific information on pornography without actually seeing it. NSFW content, like all Misplaced Pages content, should only be included if it makes a meaningful addition to the article. If NSFW content has to be there, the reader should be warned and given an easy way to see the page without it. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 02:12, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

• What about our readers from say Saudi Arabia? Should we provide a warning for all images showing the female face because these are NSFW images? I agree we should only put images when they add something to the article, but this isn't censorship. I disagree that we should try and add warnings by letting editors decide when some image may be NSFW because ultimately, it's going to mean 90% of our images are probably NSFW because it's going to be NSFW somewhere. And really, if you are researching pornography, I would say it's ridiculous to not expect to see some pornography by accident during your research or it will be incredible poor research Nil Einne (talk) 11:15, 8 May 2008 (UTC) Edit: In case anyone is going to argue that wikipedia is already blocked in SA, which it probably is, then I should point out that it was only an example and perhaps it's blocked because we don't provide sufficient warning/tagging to make it easy for them to block NSFSA content like what I've already mentioned and articles on Human rights in Saudi Arabia. Heck isn't it more important that Saudi Arabians (a large country with 27 million people) et al are at least able to use some of our content then the poor long suffering PTA researcher 20:23, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
• The only way to make such disclaimers remotely effective would be to put them on the links themselves. By the time you get to the article, its too late, your browser has already loaded all the images and text. If you have a high-resolution monitor, you would probably need a massive disclaimer (something like this) to avoid seeing any of the images without having to scroll down. The pointless nature of them is one of the reasons that we don't currently use disclaimers in articles. Mr.Z-man 15:28, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
• Couldn't disagree with you more. Anyone who read the relevant content before using the site and performed due diligence would know that we have a disclaimer already, and it covers everything in the encyclopedia so we don't need individual disclaimers. The content of this is available at Misplaced Pages:Content Disclaimer. Celarnor 09:51, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Images are highly effective at conveying information about these topics - including information that is difficult to convey in words such as colors, shape, and relative position and orientation - and therefore deserve inclusion. We can't possibly decide which images ought to be "hidden" without taking up the position of some moral standard specific to a particular location - even the idea of what's "NSFW" is the result of corporations converging on enforcement of some particular local moral standard (generally to avoid offending sensitive employees or creating negative PR). Images that are not useful or informative should be removed; images that offend certain people or groups should not be, solely for that reason. Dcoetzee 05:26, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

And here comes the reductio ad absurdum argument again. Let me turn the argument around: Is there anything you wouldn't allow on Misplaced Pages? Images of bestiality (legal in Holland, or so I've heard)? Gruesome pictures of car-crash victims with a guy's eyeball hanging out? Japanese kiddie porn? Yes, any line we draw will be somewhat arbitrary, but no solution is perfect. As far as I can tell, the lone negative to adopting a policy on NSFW content is that the criteria will be contentious. On the other hand, there are several negatives to not adopting an policy on NSFW content and pornography:

• People getting fired from work
• People getting suspended from school
• People unexpectedly being confronted with images (such as gay sex pictures) that make them sick
• People abandoning Misplaced Pages (the inevitable result of the belief that "If you don't want to see porn, don't use Misplaced Pages")
• People feeling unable to use Misplaced Pages at work or school -- which is where Misplaced Pages is most useful
• Misplaced Pages falling subject to the Child Protection and Obscenity Enforcement Act, the law governing pornographic media. Jimbo Wales has deleted at least one pornographic image on Misplaced Pages because it would trigger the law's record-keeping requirements. (see WP:Pornography)
• Misplaced Pages getting dragged in front of Congressional or legislative hearings to be lambasted for having porn on a site widely used by kids
• Wikimedia Foundation having to use all of its money on legal defense instead of keeping the sites running smoothly
• Misplaced Pages being forced to become an "adults-only" site

As far as I'm concerned, the NSFW issue is the closest thing Misplaced Pages has to an existential threat. You might laugh at those right-wing groups making a fuss over porn in Misplaced Pages, but those groups have a lot of sway with certain politicians. People need to drop their inflexibility and compromise to save Misplaced Pages from a legal nightmare. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:14, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

There is no "legal nightmare". Your examples went from reasonable to way off in left-field rather quickly. I'm sure you can imagine all sorts of nightmares, but there's really no precedent for assuming that the presence of images some people find objectionable* are going to kill Misplaced Pages. (*And as pointed above, "objectionable" is going to vary from region to region, not to mention person to person.) -- Kesh (talk) 23:54, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't think this issue is going to kill Misplaced Pages. I have faith that the Misplaced Pages users who have created this wonderful site will be able to work something out. I do think it's the biggest threat Misplaced Pages faces at the moment, because knowing American politics, I think Misplaced Pages will serve as a perfect target for vote-hungry politicians going into election season. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 00:13, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Just a thought, but if the site is brought up in Congressional hearings, couldn't we just ask the Congressmen themselves why they didn't just go fix it. I mean, nothing's stopping them. Like I said, just a thought. --lifebaka (Talk - Contribs) 00:29, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

In short, no, there is nothing I consider inappropriate for Misplaced Pages, as long as it is informative, the production of the content does not exploit or harm any person or animal, and the image does not clearly violate the laws of the jurisdictions in which the servers are operated. If an outside source raises legitimate legal questions to our office team, they will take appropriate action. Meanwhile, it's inappropriate for us to attempt to predict, with our limited legal knowledge, what content will cause legal problems. Dcoetzee 00:49, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I think it's a good idea to adopt a precautionary principle on legal matters, just as we do with copyright; libel; and medical and legal questions on the reference desks. We are extraordinary cautious about copyright, and for good reason. It doesn't make sense to have an "anything goes" attitude toward pornography when we have very different attitudes toward several other forms of potentially problematic content. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 04:28, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

The difference with pornography is that it's firmly attached to local moral standards, and there isn't nearly enough consistency between regions (or time periods) for an international project to find effective common ground. And our attitude towards copyright and libel is anything but paranoid; if you upload an image with a PD-self tag, it's likely to stick around as long as no one has a strong reason to believe you didn't create it yourself. Likewise you could add a libellous claim with an invented source, and it would take people a while to notice. At the end of the day, we trust our editors to make good editing decisions, and let the office deal reactively with any serious fallout. Dcoetzee 08:03, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

This is a solution begging for a problem. If you're afraid that your workplace is so hostile that they're going to fire you over the content of a Misplaced Pages article, then you have a few possible outcomes, all of which allow Misplaced Pages to maintain being an uncensored encyclopedia and allow you to not fail at your life/job. These are all great solutions and don't require Misplaced Pages to shoot itself in the foot for those offended by the human body's reproductive functionality. Celarnor 09:44, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

a) Don't browse Misplaced Pages at work. You're probably there to do work anyway. Misplaced Pages has a content disclaimer that specifically says that Misplaced Pages isn't censored, so wherever you go, you run the risk of encountering inappropriate content. If you choose to take that risk anyway and chug along reading fluffer and the like, that's your problem, and if something happens, its your fault. Next time, RTFM. Celarnor 09:44, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

b) Search sites that are censored to find out what the topic is about before going to Misplaced Pages, to scope out any potential sexual meanings that you hadn't anticipated before. Google exists and has an option to censor images. Use it. Celarnor 09:44, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

c) If you're concerned about images and are too lazy to do either of the above, you can set your browser to ignore images from the Misplaced Pages domain, or you can use text-based browser like Lynx that doesn't show images. Celarnor 09:44, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

I disagree very strongly with the view that, "If you don't want to look at porn, don't use Misplaced Pages (or view it text-only)." I find that to be absurd. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a porn site. It is selfish and arrogant, I believe, for the millions of people who want to use Misplaced Pages without seeing porn to have to yield because the tiny portion of editors uploading NSFW content don't want to take simple, non-censorious precautions to prevent people from seeing things they don't want to see, just as we use do for plot spoilers, or used to do for plot spoilers and still should do for plot spoilers. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 01:00, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

I find the notion absurd that a non-censored encyclopedia should censor itself for those offended by pornography. That is a burden the user should take. Another solution could involve Category:Bad images. An enterprising user could write and use a script on their account that would read the categories of the images involved, and not load any with that category. These "steps" you think of already exist. If you don't want to see it, there are lots of things that users can do / could be doing to censor the pages as they're downloaded onto their computer. Celarnor 03:41, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Give me a break. What percentage of people out there do you think know how to write scripts? One in a hundred? The burden should be on the editors to make Misplaced Pages friendly to the users. If you find it "absurd" that Misplaced Pages should have no pornography, you should write to all of the other encyclopedias that have ever been written, since as far as I know, none of them include pornography. (Except, of course, the Encyclopedia of Pornography) -- Mwalcoff (talk) 05:43, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

I am commenting on this thread- solely to support Celarnor arguments, and try to assist him in explaining to Mwalcoff that while his deeply felt POVs are respected- they should not be forced on users in different cultures with less restrictive mores. It is time to move on. The thread started with an article on internet new sheet that looks to me to be written by a pressure group. Anything with he title 'The World thingymajig' flags up something written by two men and their dog with a localised focus. ClemRutter (talk) 08:18, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

They don't have to write scripts. They can take one of the other avenues presented, which are all perfectly doable by anyone. I was just making the suggestion that out of the (apparently) large number of people who find pornography offensive, there has to be a few that know PHP and will understand the MediaWiki documentation. One of them could write said script. Hell, I'll help them write it if it'll help keep the "Lets censor Misplaced Pages" arguments out of here. Celarnor 20:01, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages is already friendly to users. We provide users with all the information we have. Doing the opposite, providing only some of the information we have, is unfriendly. To do that would be to impose the mores and morals of a smaller group on everyone. How they deal with the information given to the users is up to them, not up to us. If they don't want to take the effort to fork Misplaced Pages for their group, there are other avenues that they can take that don't ruin the encyclopedia for the rest of the users. Celarnor 20:01, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Even in providing information on how to script for the environment, Misplaced Pages is friendly to the users. The database (MySQL), the scripting environment (PHP), and the software itself MediaWiki are all entirely open and free to anybody to use. Anyone can open them up to see how they work. Anyone can "apt-get install mysql-server-5.0 apache2 php php-mysql", install mediawiki, and get going on said script, completely free of charge. Celarnor 20:01, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

I stand with Celarnor here as well. What often gets lost on this whole discussion is that there are images depicting the making of pornography and examples of pornography on the pornography pages. The image at the top of Pornographic film is not also found on the article about Love. The argument that we need to save all the PTA parents and children who are coming to Misplaced Pages to learn about pornography the problems of seeing exactly what it is they are seeking to learn about, makes no sense. If they are here to learn about pornography, let's educate them. Nobody is putting the image found on Fluffer into the Webkinz article, or any other mainstream article. Lastly, using arguments that Funk & Wagnalls or Encyclopedia Brittanica were never as comprehensive as Misplaced Pages can be shown to be the same reasons why those institutions have failed or are failing. --David Shankbone 20:30, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, it's not like we have a "Teh free pr0nz" category that people can browse and fap to. We have examples of pornography on pornography pages, just like we have examples of equations on equations, and have examples of vegetables on vegetables. This is exactly the function of an encyclopedia. Should we censor Misplaced Pages for people that are offended by equations and vegetables? Celarnor 21:49, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

And once again, the pro-pornography argument reverts to reductio ad absurdum. Look, we all have lines that we draw somewhere. I'm sure, or at least I hope, you don't want to see snuff porn, beastiality or gang rape on Misplaced Pages. The difference between pornography and vegetables is that there are no legal implications of displaying vegetables, no one gets fired for looking at vegetables and nobody in the real world has an aversion to looking at vegetables. I think that considering the legal and political implications of having pornography on Misplaced Pages, the cost of having porn outweighs the benefits by orders of magnitude. You may forget that while Misplaced Pages may be virtual, we all live in the real world of judges, prosecutors and zealous politicians. Why not just link to porn sites for a particular type of porn. For example, if we have an article on gay porn, we can link to a top gay porn site (with a NSFW warning) rather than actually include a picture here. That way, we don't wind up in the legal quandary of being a porn site, and people who want to see the porn can still do so. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 01:51, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

You still don't quite seem to get it. If you're going to pretend this is a legal problem. you also seriously need to review relevant case law (particularly Miller v. California, but pay attention to the later state discussions as well) or if you aren't able to read the abstracts, ask someone who can, because you're simply wrong there. The idea behind classifying something like you're thinking is basically "One with intent to distribute pornographic material for the purpose of arousing the viewer, lacking scientific value in the work as a whole". That's not what Misplaced Pages is, has been, or ever will be, unless some really weird things happen here. Like a textbook for a high school health class, we have examples. We don't have porn. We don't have anything here presented with the purpose of arousing our viewers. We have pictures of vaginas for Vagina. We have pictures of penises for Penis. We have a video of ejaculation at Ejaculation. We have pictures of sexual positions at Missionary position. Celarnor 03:22, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

A picture of anal sex isn't porn? A picture of ejaculation onto buttocks isn't porn? Look, I'm not a lawyer, but I know my politics, and I can tell you that a website widely used by kids that includes pornography is an extremely inviting target for a politician seeking to make a name for himself as a "friend to parents." Or a DA who hopes to get elected judge someday. And, as I explained above, there are plenty of reasons other than the potential legal liability why we should take precautions regarding porn and NSFW content. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 02:51, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to ask you again to review the relevant case law. To answer your question, no. A picture of anal sex is not porn in the context of a collection of academic articles about anal sex. It is an illustration. Of course, that definition is open to challenging and all the way back to the Supreme Court (again), but that's true of a great many things that we do here. If something happens or looks like it will happen that would legally force some kind of censorship, then an OFFICE action would be taken. Celarnor 03:02, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Arbitrary "Oh no, Teh Pr0nz!" break

(Outdent, moved out of thread for readability and coherence.)There are two issues here. One is with pornography -- picture of people engaged in sexual activity. A website that has porn is subject to certain legal obligations in the United States. It would be dangerous for Misplaced Pages to fall into that category. That's why Jimbo Wales, who knows a thing or two about pornographic web pages, has deleted pornographic pictures in the past. The other issue is with non-pornographic NSFW content, like the naked picture of a man at man. I have nothing against such material provided that it's appropriate for the article. But because most people out there -- who are used to Britannica and World Book -- don't expect to see pictures of naked people or other NSFW content in their encyclopedia, we should not shock them by having NSFW content without warning. IMO, we should warn people about NSFW content and give them the opportunity to a page, such as man, without it. To say, "We've got a content disclaimer, so that covers it" is a cop out. Misplaced Pages exists to serve its readers, and we're not doing that if we're refusing to take simple precautions to improve their user experience and keep them from getting in trouble. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 01:51, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

First, about your legal obligations, you are both incorrect and correct. You're correct about regulations on pornographic websites (US Section 18, Part 1, Section 110 would be the relevant material, available here.) Again, before pulling out the legal card, please review relevant case law, particularly Miller v. California and the assorted state quibbles. An academic work is generally not subject to such things. Miller v. California gives that the work "lack serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value for minors." Later cases (although none have reached SCOTUS) have upheld time and again that academic works aren't pornographic, so there isn't much of a threat there. If there was, OFFICE action would be taken. Celarnor 02:31, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Also... again, we DO warn people about NSFW content. See Misplaced Pages:Content disclaimer, which contains the following:

It's pretty clear. Celarnor 02:24, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

To rely on the content disclaimer alone and take no further precautions regarding porn and NSFW content is to say, "If you don't want to use porn, don't use Misplaced Pages at all." I think that's a tremendously selfish and irresponsible attitude, and if it becomes the predominant attitude on Misplaced Pages, it's only a matter of time before opportunistic politicians make Misplaced Pages their next target -- just as they've gone after violent video games, "indecent" TV and profane rap music. You and the tiny minority of Wikipedians who feel compelled to upload pornographic content are playing a very dangerous game that could jeopardize the entire project. All because you refuse to compromise at all and take extremely reasonable and easy-to-implement precautions. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 02:51, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

That already is the predominant view on Misplaced Pages. See NOT#CENSORED, which requires massive support from the community to make policy. I'm not a tiny majority. It's actually a supermajority in the case of official policy, upwards of 70% or 80%, depending on when it was made official. It has been this way for, um, ever. And for the record, I haven't uploaded any sexual content. I mostly sit here and help clear up things like this. There's nothing we can do about the politicians of which you speak. To the really bad ones, it doesn't matter whether we have individual disclaimers or not, they'll still go after Misplaced Pages for whatever they can find. In that case, whether we censor explicit material or not is the least of our problems. For everyone else, who actually has any idea about the legal requirements involved, a content disclaimer does everything needed. For those users who don't want to see pictures of anal sex (but are looking at Anal sex for some reason), then they can disable images somehow. I don't see how that doesn't solve the problem. Celarnor 03:09, 12 May 2008 (UTC)\

There is something very easy we can do to head off the politicians -- get rid of the hardcore pornography and replace the images with links to appropriate porn sites elsewhere on the Web. This would take nothing away from the encyclopedia, since people would still be able to see the porn if they wanted to, and it would tell the concerned citizens out there that we're being responsible. As for non-pornographic NSFW content, we can allow them to disable the NSFW images, as you suggest, with a simple technological workaround -- "This page contains an image of {{1}}; to see the page without the image, click here." Everyone happy.

Whatever you seem to think, people aren't coming here to look at porn. People are coming here to look at articles, maybe one ABOUT PORN. The main problem with your proposal is that it simply wouldn't work. Linking to an outside site is generally discouraged anyway. That aside, you'd have to hotlink to a specific image. If you want a picture of a clitoris, then you need to find an open porn gallery that allows hotlinking, which probably doesn't happen very often. That aside, you have to find an image that doesn't move very often. I imagine that most porn sites rotate what images a visitor can get for free. It just doesn't seem very possible. Why not disable NSFW images with a technical workaround from the client? Write a script that doesn't allow images from the bad image categories that replaces them all with "You have chosen not to see this image" or something, then distribute it. That seems like a much more logical solution to me, since the people that care about this seem to be in the large minority. Celarnor 03:41, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Incidentally, the original policy was "Misplaced Pages is not censored for the benefit of minors." As I remember, that meant "indecent" material like body parts was OK. After the Muhammad cartoons controversy, the policy was shortened to its first four words. This was silly, because Misplaced Pages clearly is censored for many things, including accuracy, notability, libel, etc. But when that change was made, I don't believe it was to be a signal that anything goes, including hardcore porn. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 03:30, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Even if you don't think NOT#CENSORED applies, this is a proposal that comes up quite often, and always gets shot down with the reasons that "Misplaced Pages isn't censored" and "No disclaimers in articles per the No disclaimers in articles guideline. Celarnor 03:41, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I have a better suggestion so that people don't get into trouble at work: don't do your pornography research on-the-job! How about that common-sense idea? --David Shankbone 02:37, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

This was addressed above, David. There are plenty of people out there who want to research pornography without seeing it, and there are many situations in which someone may inadvertently wind up at a page with an NSFW or pornographic image. The burden for making Misplaced Pages reader-friendly should fall on the editors, not on the readers. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 03:06, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

It is obvious we need more porn on here, not less. Like the articles I had written on various porn starlets were speedy deleted -- those were good f*n articles, man!! JeanLatore (talk) 19:27, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

I believe it would not be too difficult for someone to create a "shell" site, allowing one to read or even edit Misplaced Pages articles, with the only change that images are default-disabled for articles in sexuality categories. Such a shell was created for http://wikidashboard.parc.com/ (for a quite different purpose).--Pharos (talk) 02:45, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Unrelated quibbling

If we are going to start removing pictures from articles (as Equazcion just did), wouldnt it be better to bring up a consensus on the relevant talk page? Realist ('Come Speak To Me') 01:05, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

That removal has nothing to do with this discussion whatsoever. See the edit summary. Equazcion •✗/C • 01:08, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

That's BS Equazcion - you clearly haven't actually read the article, including the second paragraph (which I did not write). Now you are edit warring to remove content because of censorship. --David Shankbone 01:13, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I love how people are so quick to cry censorship. What was I trying to censor, then? A guy handing another guy a towel? The photo wasn't explicit at all. You're right about one thing, I didn't notice the alternate definition of the word, so I won't remove the photo again. But ironically, if the photo had been more explicit, I wouldn't have seen the need to remove it. You should really assume good faith rather than calling my edit summary BS. I was not trying to censor anything, and my edit summary was completely honest. My ulterior motive is your own invention. Equazcion •✗/C • 01:19, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

It's a little hard to assume good faith when you aren't going to do the courtesy of actually, you know, reading the article while stating in an edit summary it doesn't illustrate the text. --David Shankbone 01:28, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I've already admitted to making a mistake in that I missed the alternate definition. I'm not sure what else you're looking for. I'm sorry assuming good faith is so difficult for you, but that's really not my problem. Equazcion •✗/C • 01:31, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Please all, lets just get along, lol ive messed up 854 times already, lets move on. Realist ('Come Speak To Me') 01:35, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Encyclopedia Dramatica

Hi! I'm just curious as to why Misplaced Pages seems hell-bent for leather on sanitizing itself completely of any reference whatsoever to Encyclopedia Dramatica. Why are the articles always deleted? Where can I go to learn about the whole controversy between Misplaced Pages and Encyclopedia Dramatica in an objective way? Normally I'd go to Misplaced Pages first, to find a fair and balanced article, but it seems that Misplaced Pages itself is averse to even mentioning this issue! I don't really have an opinion either way, but I find it distressing that I can't really find any information about it, except on Encyclopedia Dramatica itself. ATD (talk) 03:54, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

ED has failed multiple attempts at recreation, usually because of lack of notability, though this may change at some time in the future. The "controversy" between WP and ED is not likely to be notable soon as most of it would probably be self-referenced. Mr.Z-man 05:20, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

See also Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/MONGO. Hut 8.5 06:42, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I swear, I don't know what will happen when we get enough sources for notability to be clearly established. One entire piece in a major source entirely devoted to ED came out just today. People had better get used to the probability that there will be an article on this at some point. --Relata refero (disp.) 15:20, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

When Encyclopedia Dramatica is notable, we'll have an article about it. I don't think anyone has a problem with that or needs to "get used to" the idea. But we don't base decisions on someone's predictions of future notability; Misplaced Pages is not a crystal ball. And we're not a newspaper, and we don't care if some other source "scoops" us. Dpbsmith (talk) 16:32, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I know of several people who say "there will never be an article on ED". I don't see the relevance of the rest of your post. --Relata refero (disp.) 18:14, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Your crystal ball says it will notable in the near future and we should get used to it. I say that becomes notable we'll need an article about it, and I think the Wikipedian community will agree with that. If your "several people..." are saying their crystal ball says it will never be notable, because if so it would indeed follow that we'll never have an article about it. If these people are saying that we will never have an article about it even if it becomes notable, then they're wrong and the Wikipedian community will overrule them. But none of this is worth discussing until Encyclopedia Dramatica does become notable. Dpbsmith (talk) 01:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Unsolicited opinion: Speaking as somebody who has never heard of it before - and who, after a short perusal, finds it tedious and predictable (oooooh, it makes fun of things and uses bad words! how original!) I nonetheless think it is notable enough to deserve a wikipedia article. It appears to have at least as much online presence as skads of other online sites that are topics of articles. - DavidWBrooks (talk) 20:21, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

The problem I believe, is coverage in reliable source Nil Einne (talk) 20:25, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

The problem isn't really reliable sources, for that it has plenty. The problem is significant coverage. IIRC, the draft in the last DRV had more sources than sentences, mainly because most of the references couldn't source more than a single sentence, if that. Mr.Z-man 20:29, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

For the most part, I think it's a personal thing. At this point, there's far than enough more sources available to write an article about ED than there are a lot of other things we have articles on. ED's articles, while satirical in nature, illustrate a number of the problems that Misplaced Pages has in its policies, its implementations of those policies, and its users. (The articles on JzG and Sceptre are particularly ... interesting). While I always assume good faith, there are some things you just can't ignore. Celarnor 09:17, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Longest article = Best article

The title of the section is basically the thesis of this paper:

Blumenstock, Joshua E. (April 2008). "Automatically Assessing the Quality of Misplaced Pages Articles" (pdf). School of Information, UC Berkeley. Retrieved 2008-05-09. {{cite journal}}: Cite journal requires |journal= (help)

It says they were able to, with 97% accuracy, determine if a given article is featured article or not by only looking at the word count of the article. If it is right, then that means we'd better spend time lengthening articles than debating the quality of featured article candidates or revising them so that they can be featured. Very disturbing finding. But it is hard to believe, though, since I know of many long articles that are of poor quality because of lack of reliable sources or prose by non-English speakers, etc. -- Taku (talk) 23:50, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

This is a gross oversimplification. This paper uses a sophisticated statistical model that incorporates length as one of many factors, and correlation does not imply causation. Dcoetzee 00:37, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't think so because the point is its simplicity. You can read as well. He tested various methods, and his conclusion was that the word count of an article was the best (or close to best) indicator among ones he tested. -- Taku (talk) 00:40, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

My mistake - I was actually thinking of "Measuring Article Quality in Misplaced Pages: Models and Evaluation", which was published in a more respectable venue and describes a much more detailed and accurate model (using length as one of many factors). It should come as no surprise to any seasoned contributor that length is correlated with quality - more mature articles tend to be longer, but correlation does not imply causation and just adding random text to all our articles will not make them better. Dcoetzee 00:37, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Does the word count include references? If so, that's gotta be a huge factor, since our FAs are extremely well-referenced (much more so than any conventional academic writing).--Pharos (talk) 00:47, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

The thesis of the paper is not LongestArticle = BestArticle -- it's LongArticle => FeaturedArticle which is a rather different thing. Mind you if there really is a 97% correlation, perhaps we should just set a bot on the job of proposing/approving featured articles and concentrate on defeaturing as a manual process. -- Derek Ross | Talk 01:09, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I admit I used a little logic. First, we know it generally holds that FeaturedArticle => LongArticle. Since, according to Misplaced Pages, we also have: BestArticle = FeaturedArticle, it follows from the paper that LongestArticle = BestArticle. Anyway, Ross's point is exactly why I said "disturbing"; the finding means that the elaborate review process we have for FACs is, basically (i.e., 97%), equivalently to nothing but counting words!. About Pharos' question, I don't know the answer. The paper says "irregular content such as tables and metadata" are removed. To me, "reference" sounds like "metadata". Finally, to respond to Dcoetzee, of course, adding random text fails to increase the quality. But I think one interesting conclusion is that "wikipedia works" (if we don't know that already); it is hard to add text to an article without an overall increase in the quality. Additions to an article cannot survive if they don't increase the quality of the article at the same time, which, I guess, we might already know. Maybe the wiki model is more robust than we thought, we the wikipedia editors. Still I think this is very interesting. -- Taku (talk) 04:59, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it is very interesting. And I was only half joking about the bot. These results definitely imply that it would be more efficient to give Featured Article status upon request, to any article over a certain length, unless someone is able to make a case on other grounds that it should not have been given, since we would only have to work on the 3% which need de-Featuring. Sort of innocent until proven guilty for articles. -- Derek Ross | Talk 06:07, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

...

Are we not aloud to say anything about....god on here? It is Miscellaneous.....Right? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zero Worthe (talk • contribs) 02:28, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

From the main Misplaced Pages:Village Pump page: "This set of pages is used to discuss the technical issues, policies, and operations of Misplaced Pages". If you wanted to discuss something about the article God itself, that for whatever reason didn't belong on Talk:God, or one of the other Village Pump pages, or the help desk, then it might belong here. This is not just a forum for general chat. Confusing Manifestation(Say hi!) 05:46, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

On top of which, I prefer not to be discussed aloud. Quietly is better. But I'd rather you worked on improving Misplaced Pages. -- God —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.147.178.61 (talk) 06:11, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Neat, now I can nmap God... --Kubanczyk (talk) 22:07, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Find out what port he listens for prayers on. Celarnor 22:48, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

how to get added to wikipedia?

hi i have a site called myonitlive and i was wondering how to get it included in wikipedia?

it is a site for unsigned bands, and gets about 500,000 to 1 million hits a month and growing:)

please tell me what i have to do to be included in wikipedia..

thanks so so much joe

joe@myonit.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by Myonitlive (talk • contribs) 12:27, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't work like that. Sites will only get added, if they add significant information to an existing article. Even then, many of these are subsequently culled for the reason that Misplaced Pages is not a link farm. Being a directory of bands is not a reason. Sorry to disappoint. ClemRutter (talk) 13:06, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Check out the Open Directory Project— this is a collection of links. I often clean out external links and replace them with a single ODP link using the {{dmoz}} template. --— Gadget850 (Ed)  - 13:14, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

90.xxx.xxx.xxx vandal for Edna Parker

I would like to know about this 90.xxx.xxx.xxx. vandal for Edna Parker who removes an important HTML comment asking not to change the image from 200 to 300 pixels. Any easy way to find out. Using their talk page can't do because the IP address can change. Georgia guy (talk) 13:33, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

When there is a repeated edit / revert war going on, the first recommended step is to discuss the issue on the article's talk page. I see nothing about this at all on the talk page. Why not create a short talk page topic explaining why this is an issue (i.e. why the image must be 200 pixels), and inviting anyone with questions or comments to post a reply on that page, instead of making the changes again. The next time you do a revert, use the edit summary to tell the other editor to go to the talk page for discussion. You may not get anywhere with this, but it doesn't hurt to try. It could be that the other person is also frustrated at being unable to communicate, and will take up the offer. BTW, I notice this person is not actually changing the picture size, just removing the comment asking for it to not be changed. A recent edit summary from this person asks what authority you (or whoever) have to insert the comment. It sounds to me like this person does have a question about the process, which you can answer. Also, I would not classify this person as a vandal. He or she seems to think they are doing something constructive, and it's others who are acting improperly.--A Knight Who Says Ni (talk) 15:37, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Study the article's history for detail on this. Georgia guy (talk) 16:29, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Conservative blogs picking up porn story

It looks like conservative blogs are picking up on the porn story - I think there is a Concerned Women for America hit piece going around:

• Lonely Conservative (perhaps because she is lonely she is looking at the pornography articles?)
• Pornography on Misplaced Pages

This hysteria is a little silly. --David Shankbone 16:04, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Nyet christian newswire. Oh and morality in the media or whatever are avialible for interviews. Might almost be worth pokeing someone over at wikinews.Geni 16:38, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I've occasionally run across a wikipedia article with an image that made me want to switch to another page ASAP. It's unfortunate, but I think wikipedia has something to offend just about everybody. Maybe there is something that can be done (without imposing blanket censorship) to work voluntarily with content blockers for those who don't want to view such material? (E.g. Google's safe search filtering.) I'm not sure how that blocking technology works, however. Maybe some sort of meta-tag is applied to pages or images? <meta name="rating" content="mature">—RJH (talk) 17:39, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Um no becuase wikipedia cannot make those kind of judgments. Of course nothing to to stop a 3rd party createing a browser plugin to block certian pages.Geni 18:23, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

That already exists, and is implemented in numerous blocking solutions. Enter the world of regexen. Celarnor 18:35, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm confused -- according to the original blog post (the second one on the list above), a child searched for "fluffy" and was "re-directed" to a page about "fluffers" in the pornography industry. But "Fluffy" has consistently been a disambiguation page, and the article on fluffers is Fluffing, to which there are only two redirects, Fluffers and Fluff girl. So was there recently a history deletion, or (more likely the case) did someone simply misuse the term "re-direct", and what really happened was that the girl (innocently enough) clicked on "Fluffing" in the search list?

In any case, it's the sort of page that a competent web filter would almost certainly be able to block without having to also block non-offensive Misplaced Pages pages. (Not that I'm blaming anybody, because nobody can be expected to just go get a filter if they if they aren't already familiar with the idea.) ${\displaystyle \sim }$ Lenoxus " * " 18:31, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, my guess is that the blogger was exploring more than fluffy bunnies and wanted to add a hysterical 12 year old to the mix. I think it's made-up. --David Shankbone 18:33, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, that's what it seems like to me, too. Celarnor 18:35, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Like, why would a kid go to an encyclopedia to look up the word "fluffy" anyway? --David Shankbone 18:38, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. They go to a dictionary or Wiktionary for that. Celarnor 18:40, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Gets more hits than I realized, but not nearly as many as Fluffer. --David Shankbone 18:45, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

She probably didn't know how to spell fluffer. Just like a lot of people that go to Mother are actually looking for Smotherbox. Misplaced Pages is the place for porn info. ~ JohnnyMrNinja 18:47, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I can't stop laughing. "My 6 year old boy was looking up the word for Mother and next thing I know, he was sticking his head in a shoebox and telling me to sit on it! Help me, Concerned Women for America...." --David Shankbone 18:50, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh, god. Don't give them more ideas. Celarnor 18:58, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I imagine most of them end up going places like Hagrid's dog. But yeah, I find this whole thing pretty hilarious. Celarnor 18:57, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I am not too concerned with the blogs, but this has me worried. Captain panda 19:56, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Clarification: Just to prevent confusion, I meant that I don't care what some blogs are saying, but the possibility of the US government stepping in has me worried. Captain panda 20:04, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't worry about a one-line, uncited and unquoted statement made in an ultra-conservative newsrag that seems to be entirely dependent on advertisements to support its site, that is completely insecure and unprotected against SQL and HTML injection, and that uses a free polling system (xPoll) without attribution to the author and possibly without a license. Start worrying when you see real news pick this up. Celarnor 20:12, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

• Has anything approaching a reliable news service covered this yet? DuncanHill (talk) 19:59, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
  • A quick Google News search brought up an editorial from the Colorado Springs Gazette, but no real articles. Mr.Z-man 20:47, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
    • Which reads "OMG dirty dope-smoking foreigners and artists are destroying America" (I paraphrase slightly). DuncanHill (talk) 20:52, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages Review Part of the Porn Smear Campaign

My guess is that it's WR's resident high school music teacher, TheFieryAngel, but somebody has been engaged in trying to whip up conservative frenzy over pornography, tarring me in the process and bringing in Wikia boy scout stuff that has nothing to do with Misplaced Pages. Here are two posts on "The Lonely Conservative" website (the second clearly placed by a WR member):

• Misplaced Pages porn feedback - boy scout spanking art on Wikia
• Parent alert Misplaced Pages contains porn

So, for all you Misplaced Pages people who go on WR, if the defamation of the Deputy Director of the WMF wasn't enough, and their extortion negotiations of Newyorkbrad wasn't enough, now we have a porn smear campaign that doesn't even involve our website. --David Shankbone 20:28, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Damn it, David, how did you get to be so awesome? I want to be personally defamed by conservatives, too... In all seriousness, though... I heard about the Wikia thing before in what became a massive discussion back on the policy part of the pump. I don't really see how what other people do with free-licensed images is somehow our fault. We just used the image in question within our own encyclopedia. So did someone else. So could anyone else. That's what freely licensed means. Celarnor 20:36, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, people still have Personality rights - you can't misrepresent people's images. I don't mind being smeared by the religious right (this looks like the meme that is going around in e-mail), but for Erik his job is at stake and they have defamed him on the WR, attributing to him comments he never made. That's serious. --David Shankbone 20:40, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, of course there are other rights in question that aren't waived by accepting the GFDL, but Misplaced Pages wasn't the infringing party there. That was someone else entirely, the only connections being that we both use the license and both run MediaWiki. Also, I really like that post: " I started searching on the Internet and Shankbone is all over the place - according to this story, he was the one who was responsible for telling children that Santa Claus is not real. Children! Children see this pornography, and then he ruins their dreams! This is what Misplaced Pages is about?! This is what is so great about this website?" The ignorance of people never ceases to astonish me. "Oh noez, he released the truth about Santa! CHILDREN CHILDREN CHILDREN." Celarnor 20:54, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I know. Although my insistence of including the word "mythical" on the lead of Santa Claus and including the controversy section lost me some friends around here... I don't think we should be supporting myths, be they Muslim, Christian, Druid, Scientology... but the Christmas season does something to people. --David Shankbone 21:10, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

It's the children. Celarnor 21:18, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, I actually had one person I highly respect over at Wikinews insist that I interview Santa at Macy's (think Miracle on 34th Street) as "penance" (he used that word) - this was before he found out I was not going to be here so that I could interview the President of Israel. But, I just couldn't imagine doing the Santa story - and I was raised Catholic! --David Shankbone 21:26, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion : When Misplaced Pages and its editors are attacked on issues of pornography, morality, save-the-children, etc. let us respond with "The issue we face is what specific edits can we make to make that article a better encyclopedia article" or more broadly "The issue is what can we do to create the world's best 💕 for all humanity." The attack and its solution here, guys, lies in the framing of the issue. WAS 4.250 (talk) 22:45, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Really everyone, its just some people with strong beliefs that feel to get attention. Just deny that, move on, and don't let it disrupt us. Just tell them that we're not censored, we have these pictures because we are an encyclopedia, not a porno site. By this reasoning all encyclopedias are porno mags. CWii_{(Talk|Contribs)} 01:45, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes...ideally, I don't even think we should really discuss it, although knowing that we have a few laughs at it might not hurt. Just denying them the satisfaction of knowing they've bothered us will send the strongest message. Celarnor 02:30, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't think you folks understand the influence of the "family values" lobby. Their ranks include politicians, prosecutors and judges who can make Misplaced Pages's life miserable. I'm going to guess that 99.9% of parents and educators don't want their kids looking at hardcore pornography. You may disagree with them, but you can't pretend they don't exist or don't matter. We don't have to do everything they say, but we have to at least be responsive to their concerns. To dismiss their concerns out of hand recklessly endangers the future of Misplaced Pages.

Furthermore, even if pornography-shy people didn't have a lot of political power, they are potential users of Misplaced Pages, and therefore, their concerns should be considered as much as those of any other user. And there are a lot of porn-shy people. If you know anything about Middle America, you'll know there's a lot more of them out there than there are of people who are comfortable with, say, drawings, let alone pictures, of gay sex. There's also the millions of people who use Misplaced Pages at work or school, where NSFW images may be forbidden. Encyclopedic information should not be withheld from Misplaced Pages for their sake, but at the same time, we should try to do what we can to make Misplaced Pages a more pleasant experience for them, just as we would with any other group of people. As I have proposed several times, this can be done easily and without censorship -- Every page with an NSFW image should be topped with a warning specifying the NSFW content below, and users should be able to click on an option to see the page without the NSFW image. This would not interfere in any way with anyone's ability to read Misplaced Pages with NSFW images.

It's a matter of simple courtesy. Saying "If you don't want to look at porn, don't use Misplaced Pages (or turn images off in your browser)" is an example of what I call the cardinal sin of Misplaced Pages: Doing what makes you happy rather than what makes the potential reader happy. That is, selfishness. Misplaced Pages exists to serve the readers, not to serve us. -- -- Mwalcoff (talk) 02:45, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

That's what this debate always boils down to. Consensus is (and always has been, in every examination) that we serve readers by providing them all information we, free of the POV of any individual values group and free of disclaimers for "special" topics, and conversely that we don't serve readers by self-censoring or by cluttering pages with extra disclaimers, and that those concerned about inappropriate material can take steps to prevent it. I don't know how to make this any clearer to you, but I've certainly tried. At this point, you're just bringing up the same point over and over again. Maybe you should start an RfC or make a straw poll to invite other users to say "yes" or "no" to your idea so you could see just how against it the majority of Misplaced Pages is? Celarnor 04:20, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the problem comes when determining where to stop. If we remove images that offend the "family values" people, then every other group has a precedent for getting changes made based on things that offend them. As I said above, putting the disclaimer on the article is pointless - by then its too late. Your browser has already loaded all the images text and if there is a filter to trip, its been tripped. For any sort of disclaimer to be remotely effective it would have to be on the links to the page or as an interstitial before the page load. I imagine many people would be just as offended by the text as they would the pictures. Mr.Z-man 04:51, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Right. Pampering the "Middle America" values group creates a number of problems aside from the obvious disclaimer and censorship issues. If we give into them, why not give into the Muslims who don't want to see images of Muhammed and want them to get similar treatment? Why not give into people who think video games are evil and want those articles screened/censored? What about people who think divorce is a sin and don't want their children to hear about it on Misplaced Pages? Where do we draw the line? The answer is that we can't. We can't say "Well, this ejaculation video has to go, but the images of Muhammed can stay". That would be giving into one values group's POV, and Misplaced Pages maintains a neutral point of view at all times. We can't give into all of them, so we don't give into any. Celarnor 04:57, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Like i've said before, its a touchy situation. But face it, porn is a real (and arguably significant) of english-speaking culture. Its would be different in discussing the inclusion of porn on other language wikis (like arabic, for instance, or Anglo-Saxon). JeanLatore (talk) 04:31, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Once shunned by academics, Misplaced Pages now a teaching tool

FYI. Bstone (talk) 23:50, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

This is somewhat misleading. Student editing experiments for classes have been going on since the dawn of Misplaced Pages. This article advances the viewpoint that the overall opinion of Misplaced Pages in academia is improving, which whether true or not is a claim it fails to support adequately. Dcoetzee 00:57, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Jimbo has spoken

I asked User:Jimbo Wales for his comments on the matter of pornography on Misplaced Pages, not just because of his personal involvement in Misplaced Pages but because of his personal knowledge of the laws governing "adult content" on the Web.

This is what he said on his talk page:

I take a very strong stand against having sexually explicit images (those that would trigger USC 2257, especially, but ignoring the pre-1990 versus post-1990 distinctions to err on the side of sanity) of any kind on Misplaced Pages. Most of the hysteria that happens in this area ignores the fact that mere nudity, or appropriate educational illustrations, does not constitute the problem, and even highly conservative critics are likely to appreciate the need for, and appropriateness of, such illustrations.

Illustrations in this area, as in all areas, should be tasteful, encyclopedic, and directly to the point. We have to understand that a lot of really juvenile people want to tweak us about this by uploading whatever they can "at the fringes". And that there is a lot of kneejerk, "oh yeah, you can't censor Misplaced Pages!!!!" The issue is not censorship, the issue is the creation of a great encyclopedia.

Jimbo's opinion seems similar to mine. For legal reasons, hardcore pornography should not be on Misplaced Pages. Non-pornographic nudity is acceptable provided that it meets the same kind of demands we make for other content on Misplaced Pages. However, the "not censored" policy be abused by people who upload content that does not improve the encyclopedia.

Jimbo is not the be-all and end-all, but he know what he's talking about when it comes to porn -- and he's the one likely to be dragged before a congressional committee to explain why we're "pandering porn to children," or whatever they'll say. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 03:26, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, and? Corvus cornix_talk 04:43, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

What Jimbo's comment overlooks is the diversity of Misplaced Pages. The article penis or vagina has no need to show photos of hardcore pornography; an illustrative photo of a particular method of hardcore sex, on the other hand, would be difficult to imagine without such an image. Brittanica doesn't need such images because it doesn't cover the breadth of topics that Misplaced Pages does. The important thing is that images should be appropriate to the article and be straightforwardly informative on that specific topic. Dcoetzee 06:57, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

The real question: What is pornography?

I specifically uploaded images of the making of an adult film that I think demystify the process of what goes into the filming of the genre. The photos were taken at the studio of a major adult film company, with major adult film stars, directed by a major adult film director. There are a couple of users in the minority who label these photos 'hard core gay pornography' (take your pick of prejudicial term), but they are not. I would like to point readers to the Stanford University encyclopedia of philosophy to help guide the discussion. The definition of pornography they eventually arrive at is "pornography is sexually explicit material designed to produce sexual arousal in consumers that is bad in a certain way." I don't think the photographs on Pornographic film, Fluffer, Pornography, Gay pornography or any other image actively used on our articles qualify by this standard. They are clearly not meant to illicit sexual arousal, and indeed the presence of so many people in most of the photos removes for most people the ability to fantasize about the scenario. The focus in the photographs is on the ulterior actors, not the sexual acts. In this regard, the photographs are educational and don't appeal to the prurient interest, but seek to demystify and expose the process of adult film making. --David Shankbone 04:40, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Relative naivieté

Jimbo is naive if he thinks that all "highly conservative critics are likely to appreciate the need for, and appropriateness of, such illustrations." One of the key post that set off the current esisode specifically objected to illustrations of human anatomical parts, (among other things); and also objected to the non-pornographic presentation of material about pornography.

On the other hand, there will be some topics which can not be illustrated with direct visual illustrations--we are, for example, not going to be able to have a representative sample to ilustrate the article on child pornography. DGG (talk) 14:11, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

We are being watched

In a wacky 21st century turn of events, the blog people keep talking about is talking about this conversation. How self-referential. It's like looking into a mirror looking into a mirror. BTW, this isn't quite a "blog".

The guy at the other blog at least seems to be rather level-headed for a right-wing blogger.

"If there is any hope for the progress of civil rights and the human struggle in the 21st century, it’s almost assuredly going to come from the proliferation of uncensored information to people who never have otherwise been exposed to it. No two people are going to draw the thin line between appropriate and inappropriate at exactly the same place, so we have to create very basic guidelines about protecting the lives and well being of the innocent (including children) and just learn to accept that we have to take the good along with the bad."

As for the Lonely Conservative, if you are reading this, you needn't worry about being lonely anymore. Do you like picnics? ~ JohnnyMrNinja 07:24, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

I was half-hoping to see myself get quoted, but alas. Maybe I made too much sense. If you don't like picnics, do you like massages? I know the owner of this great spa in town... Celarnor 08:22, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

The Lonely Conservative is illustrative of the problems in American political discourse. In her description she talks about how she feels she is the last conservative left in her area, and that she gets angry because some of her left-leaning friends are "stupid". But in her original post, she admits she hasn't looked at any of the material on Misplaced Pages that she has criticized. She relies simply upon sources that support her wworldview, instead of going straight to the horse's mouth. She then states that I'm the "#1 at Misplaced Pages" and that Erik Moller had written a book about child pornography (she had to correct herself, so you only see this in the comments now). She then warns parents against material she hasn't seen--out of fear, I suppose--and information that was incorrect. And her left-leaning friends are stupid? Or do they simply challenge her comfortable world-view, which she can't bear to have challenged so she'd prefer to stick her head into the sand (perhaps still looking for WMDs)? The problem she illustrates, though, happens on both sides of the political aisle in America: we discount each other as "stupid" and we make up our minds about each other without even looking at and considering information and ideas. --David Shankbone 12:10, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

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