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:That was not a comment. Let's stick to discussing the article, not the editors. -Willmcw 22:37, August 20, 2005 (UTC) :That was not a comment. Let's stick to discussing the article, not the editors. -Willmcw 22:37, August 20, 2005 (UTC)
::I disagree. The complaints about the inability of this editor to participate are relevant to this conversation. --] ] 23:01, 20 August 2005 (UTC) ::I disagree. The complaints about the inability of this editor to participate are relevant to this conversation. --] ] 23:01, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

:::Maybe just move it to ] and add a summary of these here, but do not delete. --] ] 23:02, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

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Talk:Sathya Sai Baba/archive1


moved comment

Moved from article by Willmcw 00:23, Jun 26, 2005 (UTC), who did not write it.

  • Steel, Brian "An interesting and serious attempt to present a balanced picture of SSB. However, this long article is a good illustration of the strengths and weaknesses of Wiki digests and of its philosophy of Free Content (allowing use by anyone and editing by anyone) since, although both 'sides' are represented in this case , some sections of the Wiki essay are in a constant state of flux as supporters and critics of SSB vie for supremacy for their point of view, with occasional injections of propaganda and malice."

saisathyasai.com

I added some relevant, additional links, and they were removed. I am the webmaster to SaiSathyaSai.com and considering that most of the Anti-Sai Sites listed are duplicates of each other (for example SaiGuru.net and the Hetnet.ExBaba sites) and considering that Brian Steel and Robert Priddy's sites are listed on these two sites (qualifying them as multiple links), I think I am perfectly entitled to provide a link specific section that discusses each these sites in depth. Why isn't this allowed?

- Joe Moreno 15 July 2005


You are referring to these two links:
I removed them for two reasons. First, we already have a link to http://www.saisathyasai.com/. On the home page of that link are links to the pages you added. There is no need to add more links to the same site. Second, they seemed to be deceptively labelled. -Willmcw 05:33, July 16, 2005 (UTC)

Willmcw, WHY then do you allow the "hetnet.exbaba" site and the "saiguru.net" site when they are mirror sites to each other? The "hetnet.exbaba" site has duplicated all of Brian Steel and Robert Priddy's articles on their site. So why do you allow these sites when one link would suffice to the "hetnet.exbaba" site? "chello.no" (Priddy's site), "saiguru.net" and "hetnet.exbaba" all list multiple links under "Websites of critical former followers, skeptics and other critics" and "Media Articles". Why are they allowed to do this when one link would suffice?

It is clear that some sort of bias is going on. Am I allowed to post multiple links from my one site on other categories as well? Or is that reserved for Anti-Sai sites only? I think we would all like to clearly know what the policy is for posting links on this site.

Sincerely,

- Joe Moreno

I'll take a look at the links you mention. If they truly mirror each other then there is no reason to have both. Our policy is here: wikipedia:external links. Note that this article already has more links than most, so adding more is not attractive. Cheers, -Willmcw 06:16, July 16, 2005 (UTC)
Do you mean these two sites?
I don't see any resemblance between them. -Willmcw 07:32, July 16, 2005 (UTC)

Willmcw, all the content on saiguru.net/english/ is duplicate of content on hetnet.ne/~exbaba/ When I say duplicate, the CONTENT is the same; the layout of each site is different. You are admitting (perhaps unknowingly) duplicate linkage and thus duplication of the same material. Chspnll 09:00, August 15, 2005 (UTC)

Willmcw, yes, those are the two sites I am talking about. If you look at my SaiGuru.net Deception page, I provide a complete list to ALL of SaiGuru.net's links. 98% of them are an EXACT duplicate from ExBaba.com. The remaining 2% are outdated articles or were cut and pasted from a newspaper, etc. Click the "articles", "news", "media", "experiences", "sai org" and "conclusions" links, in the menu, to view the comparisons. Robert Priddy has several sites: http://home.chello.no/~reirob/ and http://home.no.net/anir/Sai/.

Thanks,

-Joe

Joe, I think there are several reason why your website deserves only one link, if it deserve to be listed at all. I doubt if it deserves to be listed here because of your intellectual dishonesty, your shameless defamation, libel and ad hominem attacks on the critics of SSB. The reasons why it deserves only one link are as follows.
  1. There are already many external links than recommended for Misplaced Pages.
  2. Your website was only writtenb by one author, i.e. Gerald Joe Moreno
  3. Other website like exbaba.com and saiguru.net consists of articles of many different authors, not only by critical former members but also other sources. Some of the articles on exbaba are of scholarly quality e.g. by Steel, Dadlani, Nagel, and Priddy. Some of Nagel's work was published in the official magazin of the Free University of Amsterdam about New religious movements, i.e. her 1994 article Sai Paradox. The exbaba website is huge but has only one link, so I think it is totally inappropriate and unfair to give your website more space than exbaba
  4. Your website shows great intellectual dishonesty and lack of reasonableness
  5. Your website contains ad hominem attacks on the critics of SSB.
Andries 16:45, 16 July 2005 (UTC)

Andries, I think anyone with any semblence of fairness can see that my articles are not any of the things that you ascribe to them. I can back up ALL of my points of contention with screen captures, links and caches. I think anyone who views my Affidavits page can see, first-hand, the kind of person you are and the kind of bias you have. And I will note that in the 9 months my site has been online, you have not come forward with even ONE single article that factually discredits ANY of my articles. So if you want to talk about ad hominem attacks, look in the mirror. And the proof that this site is biased is clearly shown when Reinier is allowed to post his site TWICE (you providing a link to his lamentable attacks against me) but I am NOT allowed to post my link in reply. So if you want to talk about dishonesty and deceit, this site reeks of it. Why is Reinier allowed to post his site and a second link about me, but I am NOT allowed to post my site and a second link about him? I think everyone can see what kind of people run this site and I honestly don't expect these comments to be allowed to stay here. Again, I have nothing to fear and I have nothing to suppress. Apparently, you do.

-Joe Moreno

Can you please post the specific links that you are referring to? It's hard to know which ones you mean. Thanks, -Willmcw 21:02, July 17, 2005 (UTC)
Joe, I may overlook something, but I see only one link, not two, to Reinier's reply to you. Andries 21:33, 17 July 2005 (UTC)

Under: "Websites of critical former followers, skeptics and other critics", there is a Main Link to Reiniers hetnet site.

Andries posted a Second Link (from the hetnet site) under: "Rebuttals and Surrebuttals of criticisms" named: "Reinier van der Sandt answers Gerald Joe Moreno".

My Main Link is posted under: "Rebuttals and Surrebuttals of criticisms".

In response to Reiniers page against me, I posted my Second Link and it was deleted. Now if Reinier's site can post a Main Link to his site and a Second Link to his page about me, why can't I post my Main Link and a Second Link about Reinier?

Furthermore, there are multiple links from the hetnet domain (Reinier's site) also posted under "Media Articles". However, when it comes to me, "all of sudden", only ONE link is allowed. If you want to set the standard, it should be applied equally.

So if I cannot post more than one link to my site, then the same should be applied to the hetnet site. Fair is fair.

-Joe Moreno

Okay, here is the list of links that clearly shows the bias FOR Anti-Sai Sites (Pro-Sai sites are ONLY allowed to post ONE link, while Anti-Sai sites are allowed to post multiple links:

BRIAN STEEL: 4 LINKS:

REINIER VAN DER SANDT: 4 LINKS:

ROBERT PRIDDY: 3 LINKS:

SAIGURU.NET: MIRROR SITE TO EXBABA SITE: 4 LINKS:

SAISATHYASAI: MY SITE: 1 LINK:

LINK DELETED: Gerald Joe Moreno Answers Reineir Van Der Sandt

Any Questions?

-Joe Moreno

Links to 3rd party articles, like reprints of New York Times articles, are in a special category. You say that SAIGURU.NET is a mirror of EXBABA, and before you said it was a mirror of HETNET, but I didn't see the duplications. Can you provide the links which show them to be mirrors? Thanks, -Willmcw 19:10, July 18, 2005 (UTC)

Willmcw, then how do you explain Brian Steel's links? They are NOT referenced to "third party articles".

And you have not answered why I am NOT allowed to post my rebuttal to Reinier's article (his article against me is not a "third party article".

Obviously, you have not researched ExBaba.com. http://www.exbaba.com/ is a frame site that opens up the http://home.hetnet.nl/~ex-baba/ site. They are exactly the same. Just view the source code for ExBaba.com. So when I refer to either one of these sites, they refer to the same thing.

I already provided you with the link that conclusively shows that SaiGuru.net is a mirror site to ExBaba.com (or, if you prefer, hetnet.nl/~ex-baba). Once again, Click Here to view the main page. Or, Click Here for the "Articles" category. I provide the link on SaiGuru.net and the duplicate link. Cut and paste them to compare.

-Joe Moreno

We don't have a link to ExBaba.com, so what does it matter if http://home.hetnet.nl/~ex-baba/ is a mirror of it? The http://www.saisathyasai.com may carry some of the same articles as http://home.hetnet.nl/~ex-baba/, but that does not make them mirrors unless all of the content is the same. I am sure that many of the "pro-Baba" sites carry the same articles. http://www.saiguru.net/english/ doesn't look like the other sites either. "Mirror" means exact copy. You haven't proven anything. -Willmcw 21:44, July 18, 2005 (UTC)


Okay Willmcw. Thank you for saying that. I am sure that since this is the case (with SaiGuru.net), I can post my articles on another domain and post a link to them. I'll just make sure the layout is different and add a few articles. That should level the playing field :)

Also, you did not respond about Brian Steel's articles. Why is he allowed to post all those links? I think we all would like to know. One link per site. Remember?

-Joe Moreno

Yes, once your articles are printed in the New York Times. Regarding Steel, I agree. I'll remove the extra links. -Willmcw 22:30, July 18, 2005 (UTC)
PS - both Steel and a pro-Baba site called Saibabalinks.org have additional links up in the "Books" section because they have bibliographies. -Willmcw 22:36, July 18, 2005 (UTC)

Thanks Willcmw. But Brian's first bibliography page contained links to the other two pages. So all three links were not necessary. Also, Saibabalinks.org does not index their links like Misplaced Pages. People can (and have) posted multiple links on their site.

Sincerely,

Joe Moreno

Right, so I cut the three bibliograohy links down to one. I'm not sure I follow your point about Saibabalinks.org. Are you saying we should remove it? It seems to have substantive information. -Willmcw 23:09, July 18, 2005 (UTC)

No, I am not saying to remove it. I am saying on their site, they list links differently than Misplaced Pages. I am also uncertain why my link refuting Reinier's attacks keep disappearing. I cleared out my cache and refreshed my page and my link disappears. If this page is about Sathya Sai Baba, I think we need to maintain the focus and remove personal attacks that have nothing to do with Sathya Sai Baba. Reinier's attacks against me should not be placed on this page. I do not feel that my page should be placed here either. However, if Reinier's page about me is allowed to be placed on this site, I think mine should be allowed too. So something needs to be done about this. What are your thoughts, Willmcw?

-Joe Moreno

I still don't know what Saibabalinks.org has to so with this discussion. Are you saying it should stay or go, and why? If you want my overall opinion I think the entire "rebuttal and surrebuttal" section should be deleted. This page already has too many links. 20 is a large number, this page has more than 45. -Willmcw 04:07, July 19, 2005 (UTC)

~

Joe, you started making personal attacks on a variety of SSB critics on your website. This alone makes it highly questionable whether your website deserves to be listed here. As a response one of those critics (Reinier) made a website refuting your personal attacks on him. Listing the one without the other is unacceptable. Andries 04:55, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Willmcw, I was referring to your post-script when you said, "PS - both Steel and a pro-Baba site called Saibabalinks.org have additional links up in the 'Books' section because they have bibliographies". Maybe I misunderstood your post. I feel the link should STAY. It is one of the largest online resources for Sathya Sai Baba.

The section you referred to should be renamed "Rebuttals". Because Ram Das Awle, The Sai Critic and my site, SaiSathyaSai.com, are all unique sites with unique views that are specific to "Rebuttals". Both Anti and Pro Sai Sites tend to repeat the same information over and over. Consequently, I feel that these three sites are unique in content and perspective and should be kept. My site is the ONLY systematized site that addresses the "other side" to the Sathya Sai Baba Debate. It would be unfair to remove it.

There are two links to the RadioSai site. The main RadioSai link should replace the other 2 links: The two RadioSai Links are:

And should, in my opinion, be replaced by:

The other Sathya Sai Baba links are relevant.

There are several links that are included in Anti-Sai sites that are referenced under different sites. For example, on the hetnet.nl/~exbaba site Located Here, is a duplicate to Guru, Miracle Worker, Religious Founder: Sathya Sai Baba long article by Dr. Reinhart Hummel. This link, in my view, should be removed.

It seems to me that only main domain sites, or main links to main index pages should be allowed. Otherwise, things will degenerate into innumerable links.

This is my opinion and I think it is the only fair way for everyone to have their fair share in expressing their viewpoints. After all, I have links to refute just about every Anti-Sai link listed here. If you allow it with other sites, you are going to have to allow it with mine. If I am ONLY allowed to post my main index domain, which contains innumerable links, to innumerable topics and authors, the SAME standard must be applied to ALL sites. No exceptions.

Andries: Once again, it is clear you have not properly informed yourself about the "personal attacks" between me and Reinier. First of all, Reinier started attacking me 4 and half months BEFORE I even wrote one word about him. So get some facts right. Secondly, ALL of my pages about Anti-Sai Activists are backed up with screen captures, links, emails and caches. Consequently, your perception of "personal attacks" is biased. If you feel that Reinier is allowed to post his pages against me, I am entitled to post mine. It appears you have an agenda of suppression. If my "personal attacks" are unsubstantiated, you should allow the general public to make up their own minds, instead of YOU trying to make it up for them by trying to have my site removed. Enough said.

~Joe Moreno

The well written article by Hummel http://www.dci.dk/?artikel=572&emne=Sai%20Baba Guru, Miracle Worker, Religious Founder: SSB] is written indepdently of what ex-devotees did on a different website. I did not remove your website, only I oppose that your website gets more space than other websites. Andries 05:09, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

And I oppose that Anti-Sai Sites get more space than other websites. And my Reinier Pages are now linked from another domain. So what is the problem now?

~Joe Moreno

Joe, thanks for explaining your point about Saibabalinks.org. But you're not going to negotiate a second link to your website. I am inclined to remove the entire section, so don't push your luck. As I mentioned before, this page alreay has too many link. I'd far sooner see more deleted than added. How about ten each, pro and con? -Willmcw 05:17, July 19, 2005 (UTC)

Willmcw, it is not a second link to my http://www.saisathyasai.com website. It is my personal response listed on vishvarupa.com. If Reinier can do it, so can I. Or are you taking sides?

Reinier is the webmaster to the hetnet.nl/~exbaba site and listed a SECOND link from home.hetnet.nl/~r.v.d.sandt/

Since you ALLOW this, then you MUST allow me to post my saisathyasai.com and a SECOND link from vishvarupa.com/~r.v.d.sandt/ site.

And if my site is removed. I will take this issue to someone above you.

If you remove the section, my link needs to be put into another section. Otherwise, this site will be clearly shown to be dominated by Anti-Sai Activists who have an agenda of suppression. One way or another, the truth of this matter will be made known.

~Joe Moreno

exbaba is not Reinier's website: it is the website of the Dutch former followers, incl. me. He has not the final authority about the contents. His website in which he answers you is his website. Andries 06:30, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Another evaluation of this article for the interested reader

Apart from the evaluation by Brian Steel hereabove, there is another evaluation of this article

"This article is licensed under the GNU Free Documentation License. It uses material from the Misplaced Pages article "Sathya Sai Baba". This entry is from Misplaced Pages, the leading user-contributed encyclopedia. It may not have been reviewed by professional editors (see full disclaimer). This article has been edited due to Anti-SSB Activists who refuse to allow editing to the Original Misplaced Pages article for Sathya Sai Baba."
from saisathyasai.com/baba/Ex-Baba.com/sathya-sai.html Please do not link to this article because it contains slanderous ad hominem attacks on the critics of SSB.

Andries 22:10, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

Rebuttals and Surrebuttals of criticisms

I've deleted the section of the external links labelled "Rebuttals and Surrebuttals of criticisms". They are just websites conducting sometimes-ad hominem attacks on each other that do not help readers understand Sathya Sai Baba, the topic of our article. Given the very large number of links already in this article, whoever would like to add these or others needs to make a compelling arguement. -Willmcw 22:56, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

Willmcw, first of all, it is clear you did not read my site. My site addresses ALL of the articles dispersed against Sathya Sai Baba. There are a few pages devoted to the character (or lack thereof) of Anti-Sai Activists, which the general public is perfectly entitled to know about. This information is factual and referenced.

The very same thing is done on the hetnet.nl/~exbaba site (look in their letters section). It is clear you are biased and you can be certain that I will be creating a new page about this bias on the Misplaced Pages article for Sathya Sai Baba. The overwhelming majority of my site has nothing to do with "ad hominem" attacks. It is clear that you have a bias against those directly challenge Anti-SSB activists. I wonder why?

Whose permission did you get to delete that section? It appears that you were thinking of deleting the section, but no one came to any consensus. You acted without having any sort of open discussion. You deleted a relevant section that applies to Sathya Sai Baba. Are you talking to someone "behind the scenes"? The Rebuttals section should have stayed. It was Andries to changed that section by putting an irrelevant link there and changing the category title. Since my site is specific to the claims made by Anti-Sai Activists, for whom this site has devoted an entire section, I am entitled to post my site that gives pertinent information about their claims.

I am going to request arbitration.

~Joe Moreno

We can put one link to one of your pages among the "pro"-sites section we already have. Which link do you prefer? Probably a home page would be best. Thanks, -Willmcw 06:43, July 21, 2005 (UTC)

My Arbitration Request:

I have a kind request. There is a problem on the Misplaced Pages Article For Sathya Sai Baba (SSB).

This article has links to both Pro and Anti SSB articles. However, my link is NOT being allowed. There was a section entitled "Rebuttals" that had only three links, including my site (SaiSathyaSai.com).

My site is the ONLY systematized site that specifically addresses (in my opinion) unsubstantiated and serious claims made on Anti-SSB sites. Since an entire section is devoted to Anti-SSB Sites, there should also be a Rebuttals section that provides information that happens to be 100% relevant to Sathya Sai Baba. Willmcw has gone to great extents to promote Anti-SSB sites and to remove sites that counter their claims. This is unfair and biased. It shouldn't be allowed. He removed the "Rebuttals" section without any open discussion. You can view the discussion here.

The current article for Sathya Sai Baba is, by no means, indicative of the majority opinion regarding SSB. The entire article is mottled with Anti-SSB remarks and links.

I believe that the Rebuttals section is relevant and the following three links should be reposted:

1) http://www.geocities.com/the_sai_critic/

2) http://www.saisathyasai.com/

3) http://www.saibaba-aclearview.com/

It is important to point out that NONE of the Pro-SSB links cited, provide any rebuttals to the Anti-SSB remarks and links. These three links are the ONLY ones that do.

Please tell me what I must do to have this situation resolved amicably and fairly.

Thank you.

Sincerely,

SSS108 04:40, 21 July 2005 (UTC) Joe Moreno


I'd like to add my complaint to Joe's. The link to my yahoogroup was removed without ANY discussion or consultation and I'm wondering WHY Willmcw is catering to the anti-Sai crowd who not only engage in ad hominem attacks on their sites but also quash rebuttals and free speech at EVERY turn and this site is a PERFECT example of it. In all actuality, the LAW is on OUR side in this issue. I'm wondering WHY you are showing preference to and allowing links to sites which spout totally unsubstantiated legal accusations with OBVIOUS ad hominem attacks and PROVEN lies (like exbaba.com) yet are totally biased in posting links to sites which dispute the allegations and additionally show LEGAL DOCUMENTATION which proves that some of the people leading the anti-Sai crusade have criminal or dubious backgrounds? In otherwords Willmcw, why is it perfectly ok for this group to disparage a highly revered spiritual leader and throw mud at him while not allowing any rebuttal or pertinent background info.? I'd like to know what planet you live on that unsubstantiated and HIGHLY suspicious legal allegations take precedence over documented LEGAL info? There have been numerous complaints on this board as to how the anti-Sais are deleting any postive background info. about Sai Baba. When I first came onto this board many months ago I complained about the way Andries controls the board like he thinks he owns it and now I see you have even deleted Joe Moreno's link too! When does this obvious anti-Sai Baba bias and disregard for First Amendment rights end, Willmcw? What you ought to do is rein in some of the people who have been monopolizing and obsessing over this board for way too long and give someone else a chance for once. We have all the documentation to show how dubious these allegations are and have ALWAYS provided links to the sites making the accusations. Now it's high time for you to do the same.

Lisa De Witt owner Persecutors_of_sathya_sai_baba Legal analysis and response to the allegations http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Persecutors_of_Sathya_Sai_Baba/?yguid=87369175

The First Amendment affects U.S. government bodies, not Misplaced Pages. I don't think that the Yahoogroups site is a good one for our readers because it is not publicly accessible. There is no compunction for us to proivide a perfectly fair assortment of weblinks. Our focus is on making our articles good and fair. This list of weblinks is already too long, we can toss them all if it brings editing peace. If there is something about the article itself that you'd like to discuss then I'm interested. -Willmcw 04:44, July 22, 2005 (UTC)


The advice I was given was to go ahead and edit the page and add my main link. Since I have not edited this page more than 3-4 times, I have re-added my link under "Other Articles And Websites". I also corrected the pearls link as it had a comma instead of a period in the URL. Since Willmcw's focus is on "fairness", I do not expect any further problems with my site listing.

Sincerely,

Joe Moreno

Misplaced Pages:no personal attacks. Continued personal attacks are grounds for banning. I previously suggested that you add one link. You're not being persecuted - we treat all external links as a secondary matter. -Willmcw 07:49, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

When you as a public entity discriminate against a person or group it does become a First Amendment issue, sir. You are allowing a certain group to dominate this site while censoring others who are attempting to give a certain viewpoint. My link was removed WITHOUT consultation or discussion. It is the only thing I have been able to get put on this site in a year as Andries rules the site like he owns it. I have been dealing with this group outside of[REDACTED] for three years and it is the same story. They will censor and delete any information which is inconvenient to their cause and they will harass anyone who dares to tell the truth. My yahoogroup is audited because people in Andries group continued to harass and had to be booted. Anyone who can act like an adult can join my group.

There are documented wanted criminals in this group. For example, you have a link to apologeticsindex.org in this article. The owner of that site, Anton Hein, is wanted in California. He served six months in jail for lewd act upon a child and then absconded to the Netherlands. There is a warrant for his arrest on the San Diego County Sheriff's Dept. website. Apparently, a wanted felon is allowed to post his link but I am not.

As far as personal attacks, why is it ok for Andries to accuse Joe Moreno of ad hominem attacks when the anti-Sai sites are full of them? This personal attack against Joe Moreno seems to go totally unnoticed. Andries Dagneaux who is totally biased has no right to judge whether Moreno's site should be included in this section. The exbaba group blocked Joe's site from being able to access them just because he started refuting the allegations and they couldn't stand the competition. Andries is not the owner of[REDACTED] but apparently he thinks he is. When are you going to rein him in and quit enabling his very biased and obnoxious behavior toward those he disagrees with? Many people have complained about this and NOTHING has been done about it since I was here last year.

That's all I have to say for now.

Lisa De Witt


It isn't up to us to evaluate criminal complaints against webmasters, much less whatver cross allegations are going back and forth between you. We are here to write articles for an encyclopedia. External links don't add anything directly to our articles. See wikipedia:external links. -Willmcw 16:51, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

Willmcw, can you tell me why Reinier's site is being allowed to be listed again? What is its relevance to Sathya Sai Baba? 98% of my site has nothing to do with Reinier. Since his site has nothing to do with Sathya Sai Baba, but is specifically his attacks against me, why it it being allowed on this site? If this link is allowed, I will have no choice but to post my rebuttal page at: http://www.vishvarupa.com/~r.v.d.sandt/reinier-van-der-sandt.html Funny how Andries has deleted several links due to "relevance", but includes this one that is totally irrelevant.

SSS108 20:48, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

I'll tell you what I think. I think we should remove all of the links except for one official link to http://www.sathyasai.org/. All of this squabbing over weblinks is counterproductive. The article is too long already. The links section is much too long and adds nothing to the article. Unless folks can give me a persuasive reason to keep them, I'm cutting out the whole list. -Willmcw 21:02, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

Willmcw, if you simply focused on relevant links, we would not have this problem. Funny how you allow Andries to post irrelevant links. Reinier's page is about me. Not Sathya Sai Baba. 98% of my site has nothing to do with Reinier. It is not a Reinier site. My site is about Sathya Sai Baba and the ongoing public debate. If you were truly impartial, you would cut out irrelevant links. I can only wonder why you would rather cut out all links instead of cut out ones that are not pertinent to this article. If you cut out all links, the focus would shift to content. And then there would be wars about justifying allegations and trying to back them up or reference them.

Remove Reiniers link or my rebuttal link is going up.

SSS108 21:22, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

Any material that is needed to provide a comprehensive picture of Sathya Sai Baba should be in this article or another one on Misplaced Pages. Rebuttals and counter-rebuttals are of interest only to highly-engaged partisans. As I said before, I am inclined to remove all of the links, as they seem to only cause discord and linkspam. They are all available through Google searchs. -Willmcw 21:32, July 22, 2005 (UTC)

I added my rebuttal link. If you allow Reiniers, then mine should be allowed as well. Fair is fair. You should tell Andries that posting rebuttals and counter rebuttals is of interest to "highly-egaged partisans". He is the one who started it. I'm still amazed how you refuse to remove his irrelevant link and correct him. Kind of makes one wonder.

SSS108 04:27, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

I see what is going on here. You remove the links, but you allow other links to Brian Steels site and the hetnet.nl/~exbaba site by trying to put them under "books" and other such categories. Once again showing the clear bias for Anti-Sai Sites that governs this site. This just confirmed it.

SSS108 04:33, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

I've removed all of the links at the end. No information is lost, this is the same article we had yesterday. Now please stop complaining. -Willmcw 05:04, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

Willmcw, that does not solve the problem. If you allow Anti-Sai links, and allow Anti-Sai references, you should allow my site that addresses these Anti-Sai references. After all, I am entitled to post my link (I read the[REDACTED] link policy and it is applicable). This article LINKS TO Anti-Sai Sites (saiguru.net, hetnet.nl/~exbaba and brian steel's site) and discusses criminal allegations against Sathya Sai Baba. Since these serious allegations are not countered, I am entitled to provide a link that responds to these allegations. The only question is: Where does my link go now?

SSS108 06:05, 23 July 2005 (UTC)


I have removed all of the links from the bottom of the article. If there are any that I missed please give me the exact place in the article so I can find them. If you have something to add to this article, please write some text, not a weblink. You are not entitled to a link, no one is "entitled" to a link. Your actual contributions to this encyclopedia are welcome. Please read Misplaced Pages:five pillars and wikipedia:external links.


"On articles with multiple Points of View, a link to sites dedicated to each, with a detailed explanation of each link. The number of links dedicated to one POV should not overwhelm the number dedicated to any other. One should attempt to add comments to these links informing the reader of what their POV is."

WHERE is the link dedicated to the point of view that discusses the problems with criminal allegations made against Sathya Sai Baba by Anti-SSB Activists? My link is 100% relevant to the various points of views discussed in this article.

Now Willmcw, where is my link going to be placed?

SSS108 06:26, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

It was deleted becasue the editors couldn't agreee. If you would like to add content to the article please feel free. -Willmcw 16:38, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

I removed this text because it does not add anything tot he article, it's just a link.

If you would like to add a discussion of the various allegations then we can work with that. But no more links please. -Willmcw 17:03, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

Willmcw. Okay. So I am allowed to write a section under a sub-category of "Alternative Viewpoints" with no links? I would like to get this clear before I make my contribution so that there will no disagreements later.

There is another link that needs to be changed. Under "Media and Governments", "Ref 1" is a link to the SaiGuru.net site: 1. This link should be directed to original article located HERE

Thanks.

SSS108 17:56, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Add the content that you want and then we can discuss it, or post it here in case you want to discuss it first. Please make sure that you are familiar with our key policies, wikipedia:five pillars. Please note that the topic of this article is Sathya Sai Baba, so material that is not related to that topic is likely to be removed. (PS, I'll change the link). -Willmcw 18:19, July 23, 2005 (UTC)

Willmcw, here is my article. Of course, the references will be left out, but I am adding them here for others to independently verify. Many of the alternative viewpoints I make, are in response to the critical viewpoints made against SSB on this main article. So if their points are relevant and can be included, I don't see why mine can't. Please leave my syntax in tact. Thanks.

+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_

Serious allegations of sexual abuse, fraud and murder have surfaced against Sathya Sai Baba, on the internet, through various sites from skeptics and former devotees.

Contradictory testimonies, withheld information about alleged victims & ex-devotees and embellished theories about the June 6th 1993 police shootings are just a few of the main points of contention regarding the Sathya Sai Baba debate.

Although there is much debate regarding materializations, even former devotees continue to attest to Sathya Sai Baba's paranormal powers, including Robert Priddy who believes that Sai Baba has "extraordinary and positive powers", can materialize "apports" and is "extremely psychically sensitive" to his devotees.

ref 1 "extremely psychically sensitive"

ref 2 "extraordinary and positive powers"

ref 3 "apports"

Various arguments have been made against Sathya Sai Baba's translated discourses. It is argued, on one hand, that the discoursees are so heavily edited, they do not represent the Guru's actual words. On the other hand, however, when it comes to inconsistencies or factual errors, these same translations are cited as accurate and literal references to Sathya Sai Baba's fallibility.

ref Brian Steel

In the past 5 years, since these allegations have been made public, there have been no new reports of alleged sexual abuse, court cases or complaints (from alleged victims), fraud, murder, or anything else for that matter, filed against Sathya Sai Baba in an Indian Court of Law. Despite former devotees offering "world class legal resources" to alleged victims, not even one victim has come forward (in 5 years) to utilize these resources. This lends credence to the idea that the "amassed evidence", against Sathya Sai Baba, is either lacking or has being misrepresented.

ref 4 "world class legal resources"

SSS108 22:09, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for writing this. I notice you say, "here is my article." Please read the article that we already have. It already includes most of the things you have written. Thanks, -Willmcw 22:36, July 23, 2005 (UTC)
It is not true that there have been no new cases in the last 5 years. Mark Roche (name?) who appeared in the BBC documentary Secret Swami was new and even I testify of new cases, among others Edwin R. Andries 22:44, 23 July 2005 (UTC)
And also please do not insert the most extraordinary claims that some critical former followers make and then start to refute these extraordinary claims. This is a dishonest way of treating a subject that should not be used in Misplaced Pages. Andries 22:57, 23 July 2005 (UTC)

Mark Roche's alleged abuse occurred many, many years ago. It did not happen in 2004. Get it right already, Andries. And Mark Roche has NEVER filed any court case against Sathya Sai Baba either. I said that no one has filed a court case for alleged sexual abuse in the last 5 years, despite be given the promise of "world class legal services". Andries, if you do not want people to refute the claims made on this article (and of course you don't) then you should remove them ;-)

Willmcw. Tell me where my points of contention have already included in this article? Perhaps the first paragraph, but what about the rest?

SSS108


If you REALLY want to be honest, you should NOT be including any criminal allegations that have NOT been vetted through a COURT of LAW. Otherwise, Willmcw is contradicting his statement that he dsoes NOT make legal judgements. His partisan actions on this board speak much to the contrary. There is absolutely NO proof that there are ANY affidavits. I have been asking for proof for THREE years now and have gotten nothing but the run around. I have seen absolutely NO proof Hari Sampath EVER had a supreme court case. It is NOT listed on the supreme court site of India and I can find NOT one CREDIBLE witness who has seen the paperwork. Michelle Goldberg NEVER saw any paperwork, she took the "word" of another journalist and can't even remember his name! I turned info over to Illinois police in Jan or Feb of 2003 that Hari Sampath was wanted in India. Shortly after that he disappeared from sight and his site went down. Considering that Hari Sampath was a main muckraker I think we are owed some proof as to his whereabouts.

Mark Roche claims he was sexually abused in 1976 at approx. 25 yo but remained a devotee until 1994. Suddenly, at the age of fifty-something, he appears out of "nowhere" for the documentary claiming he was molested almost thirty years ago. The statute of linmitations for sex crimes in the U.S. is 7 years. Nothing like holding someone hostage for years, eh Will? Whatever happened to the presumption of innocence? I wonder if you would treat the Pope or Jesus the same way.

Maybe we should just put "by Andries Dagneaux" under the title to the article. Then everyone will at least know who wrote it. BTW, I have the name and address to the owner of Misplaced Pages. I'm sure you can connect the dots as to how it will be used.

Lisa De Witt

I removed one paragraph by anon because it was redundant info: it has already been discussed in the article. Andries 07:47, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

Lisa De Witt said, I wonder if you would treat the Pope or Jesus the same way.
You'd be surprised. See also Roman Catholic Church sex abuse scandal or Mother Theresa for examples of allegations against other religious leaders. -Willmcw 08:42, July 24, 2005 (UTC)


Baloney, you aren't even the moderator there and I'm talking about YOU and your blatantly obvious bias. And no one in the "mainstream media" has EVER brought up the possibilty that the Pope covered up the abuse of children in the Catholic church. It pays to be white. If you claim to be so "fair" why don't you give Joe control over editing for awhile instead of letting Andries control all the Sai Baba articles? Your agenda is pretty obvious. Did they teach you this kind of discrimination at Carnegie-Mellon? Between Joe and I we have tried to make NUMEROUS additions to this site and all we've gotten is hogwash. And we are NOT the only ones who have complained. You're not even coming close to being objective. I guess this is the only "job" Andries can get...lol. He's so obsessed with trying to act like a cult expert he can't even tell the truth anymore. He's become what he abhores most. A cult-like automaton who refuses to see the truth for what it is and even lies now to cover up for his buddies. Alaya Rahm and two other accusers claimed to anti-Sais that Baba's penis "morphed" into a vagina. Yet the anti-Sais claim Sai Baba is a fraud! That's some "sound" reasoning from the "great brains" in the anti-Sai crowd (including the atheists like Premanand)! Not hard to see why SO MANY OF THESE PEOPLE HAVE documented PSYCHIATRIC HISTORIES. Tal Brooke scrubbed (in later additions) the part written in his 1976 addition of Lord of the Air about the fact that he was seeing a psychiatrist in 1964 when he dropped out of his first year of college. He also failed to inform the audience that his father was the Director of Media Content for the U.S. Information Agency (aka Propaganda Minister for CIA), appointed by Edward R. Murrow in 1961 when racism was rampant and covert activites were being used to smear and neutralize blacks who were deemed to be a threat to the white man's superiority. Not much has changed since then except the packaging. And in case you are wondering, I am a white Aryan of German descent so NO I am not colored. I am an honest person who sees discrimination for what it is and will NOT tolerate it in ANY form. If EVER there was a case that STUNK of discrimination, this is IT. You won't get away with it. I know the power of truth and I WILL use it.

Lisa De Witt

Your implied threats are not welcome. I just looked at the history and I don't see any contributions from user:SSS108 or user:Freelanceresearch. I don't know what IPs you folks have used so I can't tell what your contributions have been. I'm only familiar with the attempts to add your websites. Joe says that he added, via an IP, the text below. So far neither he nor you have shown any willingness to resolve the problem. Misplaced Pages is a collaboration. Please don't complain about it, make it better. -Willmcw 01:47, July 25, 2005 (UTC)

New text

  • 1. There are also critics who allege that he has sexual relations with young men and boys among his followers, and has done so for more than forty years. No Indian court of law has accepted any case on sexual abuse by Baba. Nor have any of the alleged victims filed charges in the appropriate district. This may be due to the perceived status of the Baba as being too powerful, with supporters throughout the High Courts and the judiciary in India. Besides there is a testimony by Jens Senthi who claimed to have been sexually abused by the Baba but who was treated as a criminal by the Puttaparthi police. Supporters of Baba say the allegations are baseless rumors created with the malicious intention of sabotaging the guru's work. (this is text which was already there)
  • 2. Those skeptical of the claims made by ex-devotees, critics and alleged victims of Sathya Sai Baba, continually ask that the "weighty evidence", "amassed proof" and "scores to hundreds of affidavits" be made public or taken to a Court of Law in India. To date, not even one alleged victim has, first-hand, filed either a complaint or a court case against the Guru in India. Despite former devotees offering "world class legal resources" to alleged victims, not even one victim has come forward to utilize these resources. This lends credence to the idea that the "amassed evidence", against Sathya Sai Baba, is either lacking or has being willfully misrepresented. (this is text that was added to a different place)

Can we consolidate these two? -Willmcw 10:47, July 24, 2005 (UTC)

Willmcw, I already know that since you and Andries are maintaining soviet-style control over this site, nothing I say is going to meet the strict standards of YOUR points of view. My point of view will never get due justice. That is 100% obvious. Which is okay, I have it all screen captured and am currently making a page about it, along with this conversation. I would like to make one more point. This page does not belong to you, nor does it belong to Andries. It is supposed to belong to the general public. I do not have to ask your permission to edit it. I only have done so because I wanted to make my submission in a more appropriate way. If this was a Christian Site, one can be certain that Anti-Christians would never be allowed to modify it. The Anti-Sai point of view, that is being propagated on this page, does NOT reflect the majority opinion regarding Sai Baba. It reflects an extreme minority.

The Anti-Sai allegations are made despite NO court cases EVER being filed, in a court of law, in India. Not even one alleged victim has utilized FREE, "world class legal resources". Not even ONE single affidavit has ever been made public. The petition signatures have NEVER been independently verified. Numerous references are made to anonymous sources or people using a first name or a pseudonym. Anti-Sai's have slandered Sathya Sai Baba in the most vile way, yet whenever anyone questions them, they are "all of a sudden" beyond reproach. It is of little wonder that no one has EVEN TRIED to file a court case, first-hand, against Sathya Sai Baba, in India. All of this points to a Cultish, Secretive, Hate-Group, that tries to mislead the general public with propaganda. This site is proof. No documents. No affidits. No court cases. No first-hand complaints filed in India. No independent agencies verifying their alleged data. No nothing!

The fact that this page is biased is clearly shown when Andries, who is the webmaster and contact for the largest Anti-Sai Site on the internet, is being allowed to add/delete/edit as HE chooses with impunity. And you, Willmcw, allow this! So you two can continue to do as you choose. This is my last post on this site. But this issue is far from over. Which will me made known, to all, very soon.

SSS108 16:14, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

No, the soviets used a totally different style to control their wikis. ;) What's the problem? You've made only one attempt to add useful text to the article, and I brought it to the talk page because it overlaps existing text. Once we resolve the overlaps then we'll have text that includes the points you think should be raised. Certainly this is not a Christian site, nor a Sathya Sai site either. We're devoted to portraying all significant points of view in a neutral manner. Yes, that includes the pro- and anti- sides. Cheers, -Willmcw 22:25, July 24, 2005 (UTC)
SSS108/Joe, as Willmcw wrote,[REDACTED] depends on compromise and you need time to get it included what you want. I really tried my best to make the SSB articles in Misplaced Pages to be balanced and tried to incorporate the view points and rebuttals of followers. If had I wanted to make Misplaced Pages an expose website then I could have listed e.g. all the many documented contradictions in SSB's teachings. Well, may be I will do it anyway. Andries 06:32, 25 July 2005 (UTC)


Baloney, you deleted Joe's WHOLE submission as soon as he put it up so stop lying. We have the screen capture of your deletion and comment for the whole world to see. You didn't even TRY to discuss it with him and you KNOW it. You've attacked ANYONE who comes in here who disagrees with you. You patronized me with your garbage about being "sincere but brainwashed". The only ones who are brainwashed are you and your cadre of fools who can't stop contradicting yourselves about Sai Baba's powers. You've become a power-hungry, obsessive control-freak who needs to grow up and get a life. You're controlling several Sai Baba articles on this site like you own them. I know how to take care of the situation and I will.

The reason you don't see any contributions is because Andries deleted them all last year when I was here, Will. I know what I wrote and it was ALL deleted last year by Andries. I have a copy of the page with MY contributions to prove it. In addition, it was the exact same story where Andries does NOT discuss, he just deletes.

http://www.saisathyasai.com/baba/Ex-Baba.com/sathya-sai-baba-wikipedia-bias.html

Lisa De Witt

Please, everybody, refrain from making negative personal remarks. I know that passions are high but let's remember that this is an encyclopedia project. We should focus on the text, not each other. If information is wrong then say, "this information is wrong". Don't say, "you're a brainwashed liar" or "you're delusional", or any other comment on the other editors.
LDW - The way that the system works here is that every edit is logged into the history (see here). When I say "I can't see your edits" what I mean is that I'm not sure which edits in the history list are yours. However we can't change the past (or the edit history). I suggest that we move forward by identifying specific problems and fixing them. We started to work on merging two paragraphs about the lack of criminal charges, etc. Can we continue? -Willmcw 10:16, July 25, 2005 (UTC)


Links

Why have the links (other than to the official Sai Baba site) been removed from the page? There should be a good mix of pro- (both official and unofficial), anti- and (if there are any) neutral, links. M Alan Kazlev 05:15, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

There developed a situation where webmasters were demanding, tit for tat, links to rebuttals of each others websites. The previous list had grown to over 45 links. In general, Misplaced Pages articles should contain the beasic compreheisive information about their subject. I think this one does. If you'd like to review the discussion of the links, start at the top of the page..... -Willmcw 18:57, July 26, 2005 (UTC)
Hmm, right. Yes, this is very off-putting
I can see you had no choice but to remove all the links, because otherwise this ugliness and acrinomy would drag on and on (as i have witnessed it in my (admnittdely rather superficial) investigations of the pro- vs anti-SSB factions
However it is a shame that there isn't a link to Joe's site (if one were including some pro- and anti- links) because I have found the material on his website to be very interesting, even if i take issue with certain details of content and approach M Alan Kazlev 02:35, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Neutrality Disputed

btw Willmcw, I've been informed that Andries is the "news, webmaster and contact" for the largest Anti-Sai Baba Site on the internet, hetnet.nl/~exbaba If this is true, letting him determine or influence policy and content on a page on Sai Baba is like letting a creationist determine how a wiki page on Darwinism should read! I checked the history of the article, and have found repeated entries by Andries. This means that the neutrality of this article is seriously in doubt. I'm sure that Andries is an excellent Wikipedian in all other respects, but here we have a very clear POV conflict (i.e. can one write from an NPOV perspective about something that one feels so strongly, passionately, and onesidely a POV? ) Compare the page on Sai Baba with the wiki page on the equally controversial guru Da Free John which is much more positive towards him M Alan Kazlev 02:35, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Alan, I really tried to do my best not to make this not into an expose article and to present all sides of the story. Here is my personal story if you are interested. Andries 05:07, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
There is no standard for how positive an article is supposed to be, so long as it is NPOV. Andries does not determine policy, he's an editor like everyone else here. Just because he has edited the article does not mean that he has made biased entries. Thousands of editors with their various biases make NPOV edits every day. If you have specific issues with specific language, let's addres it. But discussion of editors do not belong on article talk pages. Thanks, -Willmcw 06:04, July 27, 2005 (UTC)
note, the following was written before i read your next paragraph Willmcw. But rather than go back and re-edit what i originally wrote, i'll just post it as is:
actually anything that might indicate bias should surely belong on the article talk pages!!!
Don't mistake me for some naive devotee. I have been investigating the whole pro- and ex- devottee isssue. And while Andries does make some powerful claims in his personal account that he gives the link for (and do i respect and honour him for telling his story, and see no reason to believe he would be lying or inventing the whole thing), I have also investigated some of the claims that Joe makes on his website, and while there is too much there for any one person to investigate (at leats too much for me to investigate), in at least some instances (quite disturbing ones) where i have followed up the links, these check out too. Now, this is not the place to discuss the details of pro- and anti- SSB factions and arguments, but clearly the situation is not as simple as either the pro- or anti- crowd make it out to be (and i win no friends from either camp by saying this). Anyway, this is why i was dissapointed that the link to Joe's site was removed; despite its somewhat obsessive quality, his research does raise some very interesting questions.
re the Sai Baba article, it has been many years since i have been involved in the movement, and so i do not feel qualified to comment on any of the edits. What i am qualified to comment on is the Sai Baba flamewar. Despite sincerity on both sides, there is also a lot of bias and each side is trying to push their own agenda, each side marshells extremely persuasive arguments, each claims (perhaps justly) to be very restrained in the face of constant attacks and provocation by the other. Willmcw what you have seen on this talk page is just a small taste of this whole ugly affair, played out in yahoo groups and elsewhere
I'm certainly not saying Andries can't or shouldn't make edits here, but only suggesting that if Andries is making more edits than, say, Joe (which would plausibly be the case because Joe doesnt even have a wiki account) then, even with the very best of intentions, the entry will still unfortunately (and through no-one's deliberate fault) aquire a certain bias. Were the position re SSB clear cut, there would be no problem. But confirmation of even a few of Joe's claims that i followed up shows that things are not quite so simple!
Like i said, compare the Sai Baba entry with the one on Da Free John; Da has likewise been accused (and no doubt (imho) been guilty of) sexual and emotional abuse of his devotees. Da, like Sai, is a strangely powerful and charismatic individual, with a lot of spiritual experiences associated with him. The links section of the Da essay gives a very good balance of pro and anti Da links (despite complaints by pro-Daists to have the anti- links removed). This is why, as i said, i would like to have seen a small selection (say half a dozen) of links here, giving both sides of the argument M Alan Kazlev 07:15, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
PS, I'm not necessarily endorsing Andries' work. I'm just saying let's focus on the work, not the editor.
sure, sorry if i was giving the impression i was attacking or criticising Andries, that is not and was not my intention!
As far as the work goes: this article does have a significant proportion devoted to negative allegations. But I also see that there is an entire category devoted to aspects of Sathya Sai Baba. I think that in balancing this article we should be aware that there are many additional articles focusing just on the "positive" aspects (and one to the "negative") of Sathya Sai Baba. Anyway, there's always room for improvement. Cheers, -Willmcw 06:33, July 27, 2005 (UTC)
hmm, Allegations against Sathya Sai Baba seems to be the place where those links can go. I might go back to the history and copy the deleted links from this page to over there. Thanks for pointing it out! :-) And i agree with you also that there should be a better balance of positivce and negative in the main Sai Baba article (not that there should be no negative, only that there should be a balance) M Alan Kazlev 07:15, 27 July 2005 (UTC)


I am in total agreement with Alan on this. The truth should be told about the allegations (because people are going to read about them if they are on the net anyway) but any accusations should also be addressed with rebuttal as would happen in a court room. For example, people should be informed that Premanand is an atheist and that David Bailey wrote a positive book on Sai Baba titled Journey to Love which was published in 1998 and he was giving positive public speeches about Sai Baba until at least 1998. Also, Bailey and Premanand's accusations are all second-hand except for their claim of witnessing sleight of hand, so people on this board may not want to include them at all unless they are FIRST-HAND accounts.user: Freelanceresearch

Lisa De Witt (I tried my user sig so we'll see if it works)

Add the material if you think it is important. Please summarize it an NPOV manner and have verifiable sources. However the extensive details should go in Allegations against Sathya Sai Baba, which is where all of that stuff is dealt with at length. Regarding first hand/second hand, that is not an issue. Misplaced Pages:reliable sources says we should try to get first hand sources (though not by practicing original research), but we settle for second, third, tenth hand reports if they come from a reliable source. (PS, thanks for getting an account. You can now sign by typing four tildes ~~~~. That will automatically add name and date.) Cheers, -Willmcw 06:17, July 28, 2005 (UTC)

Actually, the records here show I had an account as of June 23, 2004. I left because of Andries rudeness and dictatorial monopolization of the board. We'll see soon if it changes. Freelanceresearch 07:00, 4 August 2005 (UTC)

  • Freelanceresearch, I reverted most of your edits because they were
  1. ad hominem attack on the critics of SSB
  2. too detailed for this article e.g. SSB warning devotees against Idi Amin, besides they were unsourced.
Andries 08:36, 4 August 2005 (UTC)


Just stop lying Andries. MOST of the info I put in the article was FACTUAL background info about Hari Sampath and the FACT I turned info over to police regarding a "testimonial" he was WANTED in India. After that the alleged con artist disappeared and his site went down and ALL of you have remained totally MUM on his whereabouts. I also added info about Tal Brooke's father being a part of the US propaganda apparatus which is documented not only on the Spanish version of saiguru.net but ALSO the archives of the Kennedy Library with a link to it on the US State Dept. website. ALL of it was sourced, con artist. NONE of it is ad hominem you lying fool. Now grow up and act like a man for once. You know ALL this info and YOU refuse to let anyone else have their say. You also deleted Joe's info because you are a con artist on a mission. And now I see Reinier removed Joe's link to his site. When does your hate group's cult-like behavior END bozo? If I edit something you keep your slimey hands OFF of it. Keep up your slimey behavior and a report WILL go to the owner of Misplaced Pages about your hate group's censorship (the list of abuses is growing LONGER), capische? I'm NOT putting up with it anymore. Go find someone else to bully, bully.Freelanceresearch 05:36, 5 August 2005 (UTC)

Freelanceresearch, I do not understand how this background information , about some of the criticsof SSB (Hari Sampath & Tal Brooke) is relevant for this article, regardless whether it is factual or sourced. It does not seriously say something about their (lack of) reliability of their testimonies about SSB. That is why I classified them as ad hominem attacks. Andries 16:31, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
There is no owner of Misplaced Pages but there are procedures for dispute resolution, among others wikipedia:request for comment Andries 16:31, 5 August 2005 (UTC)


You're really a work of art Andries, the supposed "credibility" of YOUR sources has EVERYTHING to do with this article. And I AM the FIRSTHAND source for the information bozo or are you too dumb to get it? In short, YOUR sources lack credibility. Can you understand that, Andries? I sent a report to the Illinos police about Hari and he dissappeared and now YOU are covering up for him and I am a first hand source of THOSE facts. Can you understand that Andries? The public has a RIGHT to know what happened to your supposedly "credible" source. Can you understand that, Andries?

And once again you LIE. there IS an owner of Misplaced Pages and his name is JIM and I have his address Andries. I'm a researcher, Andries. And there WILL be a complaint filed about your fascist tactics on this site, Andries. Like I said, keep your slimey hands OFF my editing. In fact please don't talk to me anymore because I don't want to hear anymore of your sorry lies, ok Andries? The only way to deal with emotional abusers like you is to cut you off. And THAT is what I am doing. Freelanceresearch 21:55, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Personal attacks, such as "Bozo" or "you are too dumb", will not be tolerated. -Willmcw 22:20, August 8, 2005 (UTC)
Will - while your effort at curtailing personal attacks here is commendable, I was recently informed by an administrator that "Discussing editor's behavior should be done on a user talk page, not in an article." This same administrator also labelled an attempt of this sort to curtail another editor's personal attacks as "provocation." While I cannot vouch for whether he made these suggestions in accordance with Misplaced Pages policy or not, I thought you should at least be aware of them in light of your statement above. Thanks - Rangerdude 23:45, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Huh? If you want to inject yourself into this matter then go right ahead. We need more editors working on this article. -Willmcw 23:54, August 8, 2005 (UTC)


Please do not add forums to the external links, especially not when they deal with Shirdi Sai Baba or are otherwise only remotely related to Sathya Sai Baba. I am trying to cut down the nr. of external links without offending people to make it following Misplaced Pages's policy. Please help. Thanks. Andries 15:54, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

Vandalism Report:

Reinier Van Der Sandt Deletions & Vandalism Update: August 4th 2005: It was decided (by who knows whom) to put the external links back up on the main Misplaced Pages article for Sathya Sai Baba, on July 28th 2005. My site-link was included with these external links. On July 31st 2005, my site-link was removed by a person whose IP was 145.53.1.234. This IP happens to be Reinier Van Der Sandt's IP (he even admitted it was his IP). Click Here to verify that this IP is the exact same IP that belongs to Reinier Van Der Sandt. Click Here to view the Misplaced Pages record that shows that Reinier, using the IP 145.53.1.234, deleted my link. Click Here to view a screen capture. Don't expect Andries (aka Mr. Neutrality) to restore my link. He has not done so. Once again, this goes to show how Anti-Sai Activists operate on the premise of suppression in order further their one-way agenda of hate and disinformation against Sathya Sai Baba. Update: August 6th 2005: Yesterday, Alan Kazlev put my link back on the main article for Sathya Sai Baba and Reinier Van Der Sandt deleted it again. Click Here to see how Reinier, using the IP 145.53.1.234, deleted my site-link a second time. The link was restored by Alabamaboy. Let us see if Reinier will try to remove my site-link a third time. Update: August 8th 2005: Reinier Van Der Sandt (RVDS) is now changing the description to my site by trying to misrepresent it and is also trying to promote his Anti-Sai Site, hetnet.nl/~exbaba. Click Here see how RVDS changed the description to my site and called me a "Sai Baba Devotee devotee" (although I have stated several times I am not a devotee). Click Here to see how RVDS changed the description to my site again, saying "A website with many failures". Click Here to see how RVDS changed the description to his Anti-Sai Site and said "Most important and extensive website that contains important studies and videos of allleged materializations". As the saying goes, "Actions speak louder than words". This type of Anti-Sai activity speaks volumes about Anti-SSB Activists and their inability to speak or act honestly. http://www.saisathyasai.com/baba/Ex-Baba.com/sathya-sai-baba-wikipedia-bias.html Freelanceresearch 21:55, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

addendum on Misplaced Pages article by Brian Steel

Complaints against User:Andries and User:Willmcw

About Andries Krugers Dagneaux

I have known, for a long time now, that the Misplaced Pages article for Sathya Sai Baba had been under the control of Anti-Sai Activists, particularly Andries Krugers Dagneaux (who happens to be the "news, webmaster and contact" for the largest Anti-Sai Site on the internet, hetnet.nl/~exbaba: Ref. 1).

It is undeniable that Andries formed and controlled the Misplaced Pages article since January 2004. The first article that was posted on Misplaced Pages, for Sathya Sai Baba (on November 5th 2003), said, "Sathya Sai Baba is an incarnation of this Kali Age. He is worshipped by his devotees as the Ultimate Godhead. He is worshipped by people of all faiths from all around the globe." That's it.

The article remained fairly inactive until January 2004 when Andries tried soliciting a Public Petition (against Sathya Sai Baba) on January 18th 2004. The very next day (19th), Andries began editing the article (which was recorded under his "chello.nl" IP: Ref. 2) and began using his first name (instead of the IP) on January 24th 2004 (Ref. 3). Since that time, Andries has maintainted soviet-style control over the article, which continues to this day. Andries, in collaboration with the current moderator User:Willmcw, has been allowed full editorial control over the site and is allowed to remove links or content that he feels are irrelevant or inappropriate! This from an Anti-Sai Activist! It is also abundantly clear that User:Willmcw has gone to great lengths to suppress my viewpoint but allows Andries to post and edit as he pleases.

Just recently (July 2005), I noticed that the article was allowing links to Pro-SSB sites. I thought the article was under better moderation. I was wrong. I posted my link on the Sathya Sai Baba Misplaced Pages Article and it was removed. After much debate, User:Willmcw decided to remove all external links, except for the SathyaSai.Org website. Click Here to view the submissions I made that were subsequently deleted. The new policy (we shall see how long it lasts) is not to allow external links on the main article. Click Here to see my final submission to this article, which was subsequently deleted by Andries. Click Here to verify that this deletion was indeed done by Andries. I decided I will no longer try to make any more submissions to this article.

Articles created and controlled by Andries Krugers Dagneaux, "news, webmaster and contact" for the largest Anti-Sai Site

Andries K.D. also created other Sathya Sai Articles (trying to present himself as being "neutral"), on Misplaced Pages, in an attempt to promote his Anti-Sai Agenda (it appears he started these topics so he could post links to Anti-Sai Sites). These articles include the following: "Prema Sai Baba"; "Sathya Sai Organization"; "Allegations against Sathya Sai Baba"; "Beliefs and practices in the Sathya Sai Organisation" and History and origins of the Sathya Sai Baba movement". References follow:

  1. Prema Sai Baba

Click Here see how Andries started and controls this article.

  1. Sathya Sai Organization

Click Here see how Andries started and controls this article.

  1. Allegations against Sathya Sai Baba

Click Here see how Andries started and controls this article.

  1. Beliefs and practices in the Sathya Sai Organisation

Click Here see how Andries started and controls this article.

  1. History and origins of the Sathya Sai Baba movement

Click Here see how Andries started and controls this article.

Consequently most of the content for the Sathya Sai Baba Misplaced Pages articles were created, and are being supervised, by the "news, webmaster and contact" for the largest Anti-Sai Site on the world-wide web, hetnet.nl/~exbaba. This type of content does not reflect the majority opinion regarding SSB. It is as if Anti-Christians are controlling and supervising the content to a Christian site! Although I feel that Anti-SSB Activists are perfectly entitled to post their views, it is clear they are not "just posting their views", they are dominating and determining the content to these articles.

Ad hominem attacks

Since SSB allegedly displays amazing psychic abilities (that ex-devotees still attest to, like Robert Priddy), the Misplaced Pages article states, "Some ex-followers believe in the truth of the allegations but at the same time refuse to retract the stories of miracles that they claim to have experienced directly, for example answers to prayers which they attribute to him or clairvoyance during an interview. Hence quite a lot of ex-followers believe that while he has siddhis (psychic abilities) it is only because he is a powerful rakshasa or demon"! Others are allowed to express their opinion that SSB is a "false prophet", the "Anti-Christ", a "charlatan ", a "cult leader" and a "cheat". However, say one word against Anti-SSB Activists and, all of a sudden, you are a "slanderer" and resorting to "ad hominem" attacks!

Andries accused me of "slandering", "libel" and resorting to "ad hominem" tactics, against ex-devotees, and that is why he thought my site should not be listed. Of course, don't expect Andries to take any issue with many of his Anti-Sai Banditeers who have resorted to vile "slander" and vicious "ad hominem" attacks against me first, long before I even wrote about them! Furthermore, I can (and have) backed up all of my opinions and comments with screen captures, caches and links. In the 9 months my site has been online, no one has pointed out any factual errors in my commentaries (although Reinier Van Der Sandt tried and failed). If anyone can show me where I said something that was factually incorrect, I will correct it immediately. It is also amusing to point out that Anti-Sai Activists have resorted to "slander" and "ad hominem" attacks against Sathya Sai Baba, Goldstein, Tigrett, Indulal Shah, Giovanni, Sathya Sai Trust members, Center Leaders and many others. I guess Anti-Sai Activists see themselves as being "special" (cultish) and miserably fail to follow the same standards they demand of others.

Maneuvering against Misplaced Pages's own gudielines

Click Here to view the discussion to see the evasive maneuvering and shameless justifications used (by User:Andries and User:Willmcw) to prevent me from posting my relevant content on this article. One will notice how, after much disussion, I finally was able to get my 2 links listed. Right after that, the entire section (where my links were listed) was deleted by User:Willmcw, without any discussion or arriving at a consensus. He acted on his own after "thinking" about removing the section. One will also notice how User:Willmcw allowed Andries to post an irrelevant link to Reinier's attack page against me. This link had nothing to do with SSB. Yet when I tried to post my rebuttal link, that was not allowed! User:Willmcw kept giving me suggestions and when I acted on them, nothing I said or did could be included in the article. All of this proves that this article is run by Anti-Sai Activists and Sympathizers.

From January 18th 2004 - July 24th 2005, Andries has made no less than Four Hundred Thirty corrections, additions, deletions and reverts only for the Main Article on Sathya Sai Baba (this number can very well be higher).

Self-admissions by User:Andries

  • Click Here to view a screen capture where Andries describes himself as a "complete skeptic" due to an experience he had with Sathya Sai Baba. This is the same man who now claims that he is "neutral" and tries to be fair and balanced when it comes to his comments and opinions regarding Sathya Sai Baba!
  • Click Here to view a forum where Andries has made over 400 posts], most of them whining and sniveling about Misplaced Pages and how he needs to take "anger management classes" (Ref. 4) because he feels that others are not entitled to express their views as strongly as he feels he is entitled to do. Oddly enough, on this same forum, Andries named one of his posts "Better to make such a website than waste ur time on Misplaced Pages" (Ref. 5). Good advice Andries. As you can see, I took your advice . Andries' Misplaced Pages fetish has rightly earned him the title of "Wikipediaphile".

Other

  • Click Here to read a very disturbing post from "Soren Lardegard", who claimed that Andries sexually abused Sai devotees. Personally, I do not believe this account. "John Bright" was an anonymous name used on Craig Hamilton-Parker's forum (which has since been deleted). Also, "Soren Lardegard's" email does not work. The only reason why I am posting this article is because Andries believes that anonymous claims of sexual abuse, against SSB, are just and valid. Consequently, Andries should have no problem with others making anonymous claims of sexual abuse against him. If Andries wants to set the standard, he should be more than willing to be subjected to the same standard he applies to others.

--Culver 21:02, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

Culver, thanks for getting a username. It makes communication much easier. Now then, this is not the place to file a complaint. The Misplaced Pages:Resolving disputes policy describes the procedure to follow. Continued complaints to this page are very likely to result in all of the links being deleted again. -Willmcw 07:52, August 20, 2005 (UTC)
Culver, I fully recognized when I started editing Misplaced Pages that it is not http://www.exbaba.com or any other anti-SSB website and I have followed the policies to my best abilities. I think you should try to discuss contents of this article, not the person (me). I wil remove the neutrality warning unless you state what is wrong with the contents. And I find your argument that anonymous attacks on me are okay because some of the attacks on SSB are anyomous too an inappropriate comparison. First of all, there are several people who complained about sexual abuse by SSB using their real names (incl. me) and there is no person who complained about me using their real name. Secondly, I am, unlike SSB, hardly a public person and I never claimed to be pure, desireless and acquired followers on this basis of these claims. Andries 08:15, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
I just came across this dispute, and I see parallels with your editing activities on other articles. I must say that in reading this page, I begin to understand your motivations much better, and it ain't pretty. It seems that your only interest is to validate your own apostasy, and you do not care much about how to accomplish that. I have warned you many times about the mistake you are making by using Misplaced Pages to resolve a deep personal problem like the one you have stated in numerous ocassions. Misplaced Pages is just an encyclopedia, Andries! Whatever these articles say or not say it will not change anything! I am also surprised and disappointed at Willmcw's attitude against anons as presented in this page. I would expect a much higher level of restrain, and a more amicable, community-building attitude from an Admin than that. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 15:47, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
Zappaz, stop making comments on me here as a person, but instead write what is wrong with the article. Andries 16:15, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
Joe Moreno, though previously unregistered, is far from an "anon". Tell me what you are specifically referring to. I have exhibited restraint in the face of some extreme behavior. If you can do a better job, please, become involved. Sniping from the sidelines is fun, but doesn't help. Thanks, -Willmcw 15:55, August 20, 2005 (UTC)
Will, I read this page in its entirity and you come across not very nicely, I must say. Maybe is time to ask another editor to help with this article, and restrain Andries a bit. I do not have the time, neither the inclination to submit myself to that tedious proposition. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 15:58, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Deleting comments by users

Please do not delete comments by users. You are welcome to delete (and mark) any personal attacks only as per WP policy. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 17:26, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

That was not a comment. Let's stick to discussing the article, not the editors. -Willmcw 22:37, August 20, 2005 (UTC)
I disagree. The complaints about the inability of this editor to participate are relevant to this conversation. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 23:01, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
Maybe just move it to Talk:Sathya Sai Baba/Complaints and add a summary of these here, but do not delete. --ZappaZ File:Yin yang.png 23:02, 20 August 2005 (UTC)
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