Revision as of 16:39, 26 May 2008

This is a page for working on Arbitration decisions. The Arbitrators, parties to the case, and other editors may draft proposals and post them to this page for review and comments. Proposals may include proposed general principles, findings of fact, remedies, and enforcement provisions—the same format as is used in Arbitration Committee decisions. The bottom of the page may be used for overall analysis of the /Evidence and for general discussion of the case.

Any user may edit this workshop page. Please sign all suggestions and comments. Arbitrators will place proposed items they believe should be part of the final decision on the /Proposed decision page, which only Arbitrators may edit, for voting.

Motions and requests by the parties

Previous ArbCom discussion?

1) On her blog last year, ex-arb Kelly Martin remarked about the current arbs that, "rumor has it that they've traded over 600 emails to date on their internal mailing list discussing what to do about SlimVirgin and Jayjg, without coming to any decision or conclusion." . If so, this might be relevant for this case. I guess the easiest way to confirm whether Kelly's statement is true or not is simply to ask directly. I'll phrase it as a yes or no question. Has the ArbCom, within the past year or so, held any discussions addressing concerns about SlimVirgin's and/or Jayjg's editing or administrative actions in Misplaced Pages or other Wikimedia project? Cla68 (talk) 04:33, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

JP, you can't even say yes or no, even if it might pertain to this case? Cla68 (talk) 20:09, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

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Discussions on the list are and will remain private. --jpgordon 18:50, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

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my view is that it would be inappropriate for jpgordon to comment further. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 04:45, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Oversighted SlimVirgin userspace page?

2) Request confirmation from an arbitrator on if this page from SlimVirgin's userspace has been oversighted User:SlimVirgin/GNT . Cla68 (talk) 21:27, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Rephrase question for the arbs, if the quote below is accurate, was the page oversighted from SV's userspace because it was, in fact, being used as described by Gnetwerker? Cla68 (talk) 03:47, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

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If the page was just used to draft some changes for her userpage then why was it oversighted? If it was used to draft content for a BLP, content that was later determined to be in violation of the BLP policy, then I can understand it being oversighted. If an arbitrator could clear up the issue here, if any, that would put this question to rest. Cla68 (talk) 23:14, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I can't read your link, was it admin deleted? If so, could you post the diff content below? Cla68 (talk) 01:00, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Here is what I understand to be the admin-deleted statement from the editor mentioned by Kwsn complaining to SV about the oversighted page in question:

Cla68 (talk) 03:47, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

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I'm not an arb, but the lack of any revisions seems to me like it has been. My question now is why? Kwsn (Ni!) 22:24, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Concur, but what does this have to do with the case? Nobody involved in this case has oversight permission, so if oversight policy were violated (I don't see how it could have been, but if it were) it's outside the scope of this case. --B (talk) 22:47, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Never mind, I googled it and found http://wikipediareview.com/index.php?showtopic=9671&st=0&p=34156&#entry34156 - this falls into the "who cares" category unless there's something more here. --B (talk) 22:52, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Looking at that thread, it's basically SV using a subpage to track someone else, something she cuts down Cla68 for in the evidence section. I'm curious now as to what the actual contents are, and why it had to be oversighted if it was just a page with evidence of wrong doings. Kwsn (Ni!) 23:59, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

The scope of this case should not be considered limited to the initially named parties, and any actions by checkusers and oversighters that relates to the named parties would certainly fall within the scope of this case. John Vandenberg 00:14, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Un-indent: I did some digging... and found something interesting. The user in question asked SV to leave him alone, obviously she didn't stop. Kwsn (Ni!) 00:49, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't look like the deleted revisions of Special:Undelete/User_talk:SlimVirgin/temp were deleted for any privacy reason or anything like that. Rather, ElinorD (talk · contribs) was splitting SlimVirgin's talk page archives into separate pages for her and it looks like she stopped before finishing. I don't see any reason not to make these revisions available for evidence gathering, though presumably that decision should be left to a clerk. Jayvdb, do you feel it would be appropriate to restore this page? --B (talk) 04:04, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I cant answer that on the spot, but I'll start looking through these deleted revisions. John Vandenberg 06:58, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

That isn't the contents of the /GNT page that Cla mentions above though - which has almost certainly been oversighted. No deleted edits. Nothing in the move log. Just multiple deletions int eh deletion log indicating there was somethign there at some point. Viridae 07:05, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Sure; you will need to ask arbcom about that page. John Vandenberg 07:09, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

JzG is added as a party

3) Per arb's comments, JzG is added as a party to the case. Following the close of the case, it is renamed to C68-FM-JzG-SV.

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Just want to make it official Kwsn (Ni!) 22:41, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

This case is complicated enough without that addition. Viridae 23:50, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

This is a proposal, not a statement of something that has already happened, right? This is a really bad idea. Other than some of the same people being involved, there is zero overlap. I really wish the arbs would reverse themselves on this one. --B (talk) 01:28, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't really matter - the principles are essentially the same. Ncmvocalist (talk) 01:35, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

B is absolutely correct. The arbs need to take the JzG case separately. — Rlevse • Talk • 01:51, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

The JzG case is about JzG's behaviour; there is very little confluence, and I would hope the arbitrators treat and consider it separately. Neıl 龱 07:58, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Neil and B, JzG's issues while similar are not related to FM, SV, and Cla's issues. And shouldn't be the same hearing. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 15:15, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I can't for the life of me see how turning this into the Omnibus Editor and Administrator Misconduct Act helps to detangle an already complicated situation. Raymond Arritt (talk) 16:00, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Moving Forward: Well, it appears that Chris has cast the 4th net !vote to merge, so it seems that it will be merged anyway. I will note that we now have over 750 links on the evidence page and for what it is worth I concur with Raymond. --Dragon695 (talk) 18:53, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Neil and others, the two are separate and should be treated as such. DuncanHill (talk) 21:42, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

More Oversighted SlimVirgin edits?

4) In this this thread at ANI, some of the links to SlimVirgin's and another editor's edits don't work, including . Since I'm not receiving the "this page was deleted" or "you're not authorized" screens, I assume those diffs were oversighted. Looking at the ANI discussion, I don't see why they should have been oversighted, if they were. Would the arbitrators look at them, determine if they were oversighted or oversighted properly, and, if not, restore them and provide the name of the oversighter and the date(s) that the oversighting was done? Thank you. Cla68 (talk) 02:22, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

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Proposed temporary injunctions

Motion to close without prejudice

It's my view that we need to accept that this process has derailed, and has very little chance to provide a net benefit, and is almost certain to harm the project. I strongly believe in blanking these pages without prejudice, and forcing at least a week's breathing space. It may well be the best course of action to pretend that this application for an arb case never happened. If you agree, please help by supporting this motion.

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• Support - Privatemusings (talk) 01:13, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
• Support - Maybe inviting the parties to WP:NTWW (or a private conference call) to talk it out face-to-face would be more fruitful than proving the other guilty? Merzul (talk) 02:14, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
• Hmph. It's obvious that this process is not going to be a net benefit to the encyclopedia, whatever its outcome. On the other hand, the festering issues which underly it are not going to magically disappear if we blank the pages. Dunno. MastCell  02:26, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose, the worst outcome would be to ignore the issues at hand. This is clearly a huge issue streaming through more of the encyclopedia then we're seeing here so far. We have an opportunity in this RFAR to at least try to fix the many, many wrongdoings present. Dismissing this case would harm Misplaced Pages's reputation. Are both parties completely right in what they've done? Dismissing implies a yes to that answer, which I shudder at. Wizardman 02:37, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose because the outcome I see by making this go away is that it will come back about half a year down the road with new, even more vindictive rhetoric. This needs to be dealt with, because while the decision will probably hurt the encyclopedia, putting it off will DEFINITELY hurt the encyclopedia, and to a larger extent. Dr. eXtreme 02:39, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

There are some major issues here, which is why both were accepted (and merged presumably due to the direction this case is going in) - there's no basis for this request, particularly where you are not a party to this case. Reject. Ncmvocalist (talk) 03:08, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

The basis for the request is that Privatemusing cares deeply about the Wiki. Rationally speaking, the opposes here are irrefutable, and yet I feel Privatemusing is absolutely right. Of course the underlying issues need to be resolved, and I trust the committee will rule wisely on this, but the question is if maybe something outside the box would be more effective and graceful. Best wishes, Merzul (talk) 03:21, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

The case would not have been accepted if no other attempts (even outside of the box) had been made to resolve this issue. It is now in the final step of the dispute resolution process due to the failure to resolve the dispute in earlier steps (which includes any other means). Therefore, while the user who requested this may be concerned, there still is no basis for the request, particularly from a non-party. Ncmvocalist (talk) 03:41, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose I respect PM's desire to bring harmony to the wiki, but these are long-standing issues that must be resolved. This case is one which has potential to strike at the heart of the double standard that some editors feel exist. --Dragon695 (talk) 12:24, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

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Questions to the parties

Question from FT2

One question that seems important to check with all parties and anyone else:

It might be helpful to give some (simple) wiki-historic background on these matters (so to speak) and "how it reached where it is now", in addition to the usual discussion of the parties' conduct (how they have acted and its impact).

By that I mean, without setting out a fishing net or any kind of wild conspiracy-building, it might be useful to have a couple of comments on the extent to which this is about the conduct of specific individuals, and the extent (if any) to which the problematic conduct(s) are also driven by the playing out of some kind of underlying issue, dispute or division, such as groups, cliques, historic conflicts, or opposing agendas/viewpoints (if any).

I ask since this might be an important factor in assessing the conduct of the parties, in a fair and informed way, and against an appropriate context. Or it might not.

Comments (if any) on the evidence page please. FT2  11:40, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Further thought: Where possible I'd encourage those giving evidence (on either "side") to ensure they also give consideration to good faith explanations, as necessary. Whilst we're ultimately looking at users' conduct and its impact here, not every problematic action will have been undertaken for a disruptive or hostile reason. Up-front request for a good quality, reasoned discussion. FT2  12:06, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Proposed final decision

Proposals by User:Ncmvocalist

tbn = to be numbered.

Proposed principles

Purpose of Misplaced Pages

1) The purpose of Misplaced Pages is to create a high-quality, free-content encyclopedia in an atmosphere of camaraderie and mutual respect among contributors. Use of the site for other purposes, such as advocacy or propaganda, furtherance of outside conflicts, publishing or promoting original research, and political or ideological struggle, is prohibited.

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Standard. Ncmvocalist (talk) 14:29, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Administrators

2) Administrators are trusted members of the community and are expected to follow Misplaced Pages policies. They are expected to pursue their duties to the best of their abilities. Occasional mistakes are entirely compatible with this; administrators are not expected to be perfect. However, consistently or egregiously poor judgment may result in the removal of administrator status.

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Standard. Ncmvocalist (talk) 12:10, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Editorial process

3) Misplaced Pages works by building consensus. This is done through the use of polite discussion—involving the wider community, if necessary—and dispute resolution, rather than through disruptive editing, or unseemly conduct. Editors are each responsible for noticing when a debate is escalating into an edit war, and for helping the debate move to better approaches by discussing their differences rationally. Edit-warring, whether by reversion or otherwise, is prohibited; this is so even when the disputed content is clearly problematic, with only a few exceptions. Revert rules should not be construed as an entitlement or inalienable right to revert, nor do they endorse reverts as an editing technique.

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Proposed - standard, but slightly modified. Ncmvocalist (talk) 05:43, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Use of administrative tools in a dispute

4) Administrative tools may not be used to further the administrator's own position in a dispute.

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Standard. Ncmvocalist (talk) 12:21, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Decorum

5) Misplaced Pages users are expected to behave reasonably, calmly, and courteously in their interactions with other users; to approach even difficult situations in a dignified fashion and with a constructive and collaborative outlook; and to avoid acting in a manner that brings the project into disrepute. Unseemly conduct, such as personal attacks, incivility, assumptions of bad faith, trolling, harassment, disruptive point-making, and gaming the system, is prohibited.

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Standard. Ncmvocalist (talk) 14:29, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Threats

6) The making of express or implied threats against another editor is a form of harassment and is prohibited.

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Standard. Ncmvocalist (talk) 11:53, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Administrators expected to lead by example

7) Administrators are expected to lead by example, and act as role models for users in the community. To a greater extent than other editors, administrators are expected to observe the principles of Wikiquette by behaving in a respectful, civil manner in their interactions with others. Sustained or serious disruption of Misplaced Pages is incompatible with the status of administrator. Even if no misuse of administrative tools took place, administrators whose actions are inappropriate and disruptive risk being desysopped by the Arbitration Committee.

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From 2 previous cases - combined both. Ncmvocalist (talk) 12:11, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

• Support, as worded. dorftrottel (talk) 17:11, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
• Support. It's not hypocrisy to hold leaders to a higher standard. Dr. eXtreme 18:16, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
• Comment Needs the other "admins aren't expected to be perfect" boilerplate arbcom finding to be useful in context of an arbcom case. This isn't paper so no need to combine previous rulings. Linking "Sustained or serious disruption of Misplaced Pages" with an expectation of Wikiquette, is a large leap. The large gaping chasm between the two is why they are separate principle because in general, Wikiquette violations don't constitute anything close to "Sustained or serious disruptions" nor should they be inferred by overly broad and vindictive interpretation. --DHeyward (talk) 14:52, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Know yourself

8) It is important for all users, but especially administrators, to be aware of their own agendas, feelings and passions, and to deal with them appropriately, avoiding both biased editing and ill-considered administrative actions.

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Standard, I think. Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:07, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

MeatBall:DefendEachOther

9) An administrator is expected to refrain from issuing blocks (or threatening to issue blocks) in response to personal attacks or incivility directed at themselves.

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Modified slightly from Tango case. Ncmvocalist (talk) 12:10, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Conduct outside Misplaced Pages

10) A user's conduct outside of Misplaced Pages is generally not subject to Misplaced Pages policies or sanctions. This includes actions such as sending private e-mails or commenting on Misplaced Pages and its users in other forums. However, in truly extraordinary circumstances, a user who engages in egregiously disruptive off-wiki conduct endangering the project and its participants may be subject to sanction. An example is a user whose off-wiki activities directly threaten to damage another user's real-world life or employment in retaliation for his or her editing.

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From a previous case. Ncmvocalist (talk) 12:22, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Kwsn (Ni!) 00:00, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Guilt by association

11) Mere membership by an editor in some external website that has members who have been involved in violations of policy is not actionable without evidence that the editor has some personal involvement in said violations.

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From a recent proposed decision. Ncmvocalist (talk) 03:40, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Compliance

12) All editors are expected to comply with the rulings of the Arbitration Committee.

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Standard. Ncmvocalist (talk) 18:14, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

maybe but kinda dicely in a volenteer community. Not oppose or even not activly oppose would be closer.Geni 10:58, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

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Proposed findings of fact

Previous ArbCom rulings involving FeloniousMonk

1) FeloniousMonk (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) has been subject to several remedies from previous rulings by the arbitration committee. In the case of WebEx and Min Zhu, he was admonished not to use his administrative tools or give warnings in content disputes in which he is involved. He was warned in the case of Agapetos angel and was instructed to seek dispute resolution rather than edit warring when involved with content disputes. In the case of ScienceApologist, he was counseled to consult with other administrators with respect to disruptive users and to cooperate with them in a collegial way.

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Straight-forward. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:53, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

What is the point of bringing up two-year old issues? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:30, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

They demonstrate a continuing, long-term pattern of inappropriate behaviour. This indicates that FeloniousMonk's recent actions are not an aberrance from the norm which could be put down to circumstance, rather that his behaviour has always been this way. Neıl 龱 08:36, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

FeloniousMonk

2) FeloniousMonk has repeatedly shown poor judgement since becoming an administrator, both in using his administrative tools () (); and engaged in a variety of disruptive and unseemly conduct, including threats (); personal attacks, incivility and assumptions of bad faith (). He is also unwilling to acknowledge criticism from his peers of his administrative actions when it is given (example).

2.1) FeloniousMonk has repeatedly shown poor judgement since becoming an administrator, both in using his administrative tools () (); and engaged in a variety of disruptive and unseemly conduct, including threats (); personal attacks, incivility and assumptions of bad faith (), and has made meritless accusations against other editors on several occasions (). He is also unwilling to acknowledge criticism from his peers of his administrative actions when it is given (example).

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Proposed. Open to suggestions for further tweaking. Ncmvocalist (talk) 15:49, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Your example of "unwilling to accept criticism" for "adminsitrative action" is a bit weak. His "action" was a warning, not a block or even a page protection. And he goes on to say in the same thread fruther down "I take your point". You seem to have a cherry picked one response and it should be stricken. This was the only evidence I checked since it was the only one direct linked but if the rest of it is just as poor, it should be deleted. --DHeyward (talk) 14:01, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Threatening to use your admin actions is close enough as it can have a chilling effect, like a block. (It might've made more sense if you read the principles (as one should) before jumping to a finding, let alone selectively cherrypicking one part of it.) As for failing to accept criticism, I wasn't convinced that he did get the point if he says "The road runs both ways, good acts beget good acts. That wasn't his first CIVIL warning" before saying "but I take your point". It is a fundamental flaw in his administrative abilities to think that an editors misconduct legitimizes his poor-judgement as an admin. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:33, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

I read the principles and found none that corresponded to this finding. Warning a user to cease a particular behavior or risk being blcoked is not a threat. This is obvious giving the standard warning templates (And why they aren't called "threat" templates). Nor is a warning that "you will be blocked" a use of admin tools as any editor can leave a warning that says the same thing. The "admin tool" part is only in play if the block is executed. Secondly, you seem to be trying to stretch his reaction to an editor as being unable to accept criticism from his peers. FM expressing displeasure at an editors behavior while at the same time acknowledging that another admins criticism is esesntially a valid viewpoint runs contrary to your proposed fact. In fact, it seems to be the exact opposite in this case. He acknowledeges the criticism of his peers despite an editors misconduct. --DHeyward (talk) 07:33, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps you didn't look hard enough then. Administrators are expected to observe, to a greater extent than editors, the relevant Wikiquette principles. They also should not use (or threaten to use) their tools in a dispute, or where incivility is directed at themselves. There is a massive difference between a warning (or even a good faith warning template) and how and what he actually said at that talk page - he effectively inflamed the dispute and made no apology for it. His philosophy that only "good acts beget good acts" (demonstrated through the pattern of his poor judgement) shows that his conduct is incompatible with what is expected of an admin of 3-4 years. Ncmvocalist (talk) 08:31, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps you need to read wat FM wrote. His philosophy isn't only "good acts beget good acts". He stated a what is a truism. He is basically saying "1 Equals 1" and you are interpreting that as he only believes "1 Equals 1" so he doesn't believe "2 equals 2". He basically said "If the other editor hadn't been incivil, I wouldn't have been incivil, but I understand your point that my being incivil was not appropriate." That's a pretty good acknowledgement and doesn't support your facts. The "threats" that you cite as principles and the "threats" of administrative action are not in the same ballpark. Threatening to use the tools to undelete a page so that it can further WP:BIO violations is a "threat" the way the policy was intended. --DHeyward (talk) 14:44, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Previous ArbCom rulings involving SlimVirgin

3) SlimVirgin (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) has been subject to findings and remedies in previous rulings by the arbitration committee. In the case of Lyndon LaRouche 2, the Committee made a finding that she engaged in personal attacks, and she was cautioned not to make any personal attacks, even under severe perceived provocation. In the case of Israeli apartheid, she was admonished not to use her administrative tools without prior discussion and consensus, and to avoid using them so as to continue an editing dispute. She was also reminded in that case to use mediation and other dispute resolution procedures sooner when conflicts occur.

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There is no ArbCom finding that SlimVirgin misused the admin tools during the Israeli Apartheid situation. The only remedy that mentions her name in that case and orders a specific action is, "Humus sapiens, ChrisO, Kim van der Linde, SlimVirgin, and Jayjg are reminded to use mediation and other dispute resolution procedures sooner when conflicts occur." Cla68 (talk) 01:54, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

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Straight-forward. Ncmvocalist (talk) 00:49, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

The remedy in question reads as "All involved administrators are admonished not use their administrative tools without prior discussion and consensus, and to avoid using them so as to continue an editing dispute. Humus sapiens, ChrisO, Kim van der Linde, SlimVirgin, and Jayjg are reminded to use mediation and other dispute resolution procedures sooner when conflicts occur." - I'm not familiar with the case, but it appears that SV is included among "all involved administrators". As far as I can tell, SV did not at any time protect or unprotect the page or move the page while it was under move protection. Some clarification would be helpful. --Random832 (contribs) 16:25, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

She became an involved admin when she moved the page (at 22:12 on 4 July 2006). She was therefore subject to the whole remedy. Ncmvocalist (talk) 18:02, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

But saying she was admonished in regards to her use of the administrative tools is disingenuous if there was no allegation that she, personally, had misused the tools in that case. --B (talk) 18:17, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

She was an involved administrator, so she was admonished - it is irrelevant that others were admonished too. Her name was also specified in the second line (like the others involved). Ncmvocalist (talk) 18:28, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

But if there was no finding or even an allegation that she did anything wrong, saying she was admonished is silly. It's kinda like when our secretary reminds the whole company to submit their timecards at the end of the pay period. Yes, I, like everyone else, got the reminder. But my boss isn't going to lord it over me on my performance review that the secretary had to admonish me about my timecard. Or, at least, if he does, then my name is Dilbert. This isn't a meaningful finding of fact unless she had actually done something to deserve the warning. My big issue here is that there are legitimate concerns about FM's use of the tools and, according to your claims which I am not yet prepared to offer an opinion on one way or the other, SV's conduct. If those legitimate concerns get lost amongst grandstanding over minor things, then the arbitration committee is less likely to arrive at an appropriate decision. This isn't a legal pleading or a contract negotiation where you might throw a ton of paint on the wall planning to negotiate away a lot of it and hoping that the little bit you care about is going to stick. If any of it has the appearance of a personal grudge or a smear campaign, the arbiters might decide to ignore the lot of it. --B (talk) 18:37, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

You are entitled to your own opinion (whatever it is) - but it will not change the clear fact that she was among 5 administrators admonished for poor judgement - she should not have got involved. If you feel there is some error in the case, then like every other editor, you would need to request for an amendment or clarification, but I doubt the arbitrators are going to find any differently on this point. Ncmvocalist (talk) 18:57, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

SlimVirgin

4) SlimVirgin has repeatedly shown poor judgement since becoming an administrator by engaging in a variety of disruptive and unseemly conduct, including edit-warring (); threats, personal attacks, incivility and assumptions of bad faith ().

4.1) SlimVirgin has repeatedly shown poor judgement since becoming an administrator, both in using her administrative tools , and by engaging in a variety of disruptive and unseemly conduct, including edit-warring (); threats, personal attacks, incivility and assumptions of bad faith ().

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Proposed. Open to suggestions for further tweaking. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:19, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

"Repeated" poor judgment with respect to the administrative tools is not currently demonstrated in the evidence. Of your two examples, the WP:V protection warring is inappropriate, but somewhat stale if (and only if) it was an isolated incident. (It happened in July 2007, but if there are other similar incidents, it is obviously an issue.) As for the Category talk:Animal rights activists thing, I'm scratching my head on that one. She moved the discussion of Category talk:Animal rights activists to Category talk:Animal rights movement (list), then deleted the latter. She copied and pasted the content to Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Animal rights so the discussion was able to continue. There's an obvious reason for centralizing the discussion on a project page rather than having it potentially on multiple cat talk pages, so I have no problem with her intentions there. Moving/deleting the page was a rather bad idea for GFDL reasons - the better alternative would have been to copy/paste it with an edit summary crediting the authors, then blank the original discussion. But this is more an incorrect use from a technical standpoint than it is an intentional abuse. It's important to differentiate between someone abusing the tools and making an incorrect decision because they don't have an engineering or law degree. --B (talk) 17:42, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

But the finding is about her (SV's) judgement as an administrator (with respect to being subject to a previous remedy, continuing with incivility and most importantly - principle 7) - it may need to be worded better though. I haven't gone into her use of admin tools like for FM, due to the current lack of evidence on it. Ncmvocalist (talk) 19:01, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

JzG

5) JzG (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) has repeatedly shown poor judgement since becoming an administrator, both in using his administrative tools () and by engaging in a variety of disruptive and unseemly conduct, including threats, personal attacks, incivility and assumptions of bad faith () ().

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Proposed; I'm assuming he's a party of this case until/unless ArbCom specify otherwise. Ncmvocalist (talk) 01:43, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

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6) {text of proposed finding of fact}

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Proposed remedies

Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.

FeloniousMonk desysopped

1) FeloniousMonk (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) administrative privileges are revoked. He may reapply at any time via the usual means or by appeal to the Committee, upon demonstrating that he can follow policy and community practice to a sufficient level that continued remedies will not be necessary.

1.1) FeloniousMonk (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) administrative privileges are revoked indefinitely.

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Proposed; prefer 1.1 Ncmvocalist (talk) 12:42, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Support either The use of admin tools in dispute isn't a good thing to start with, but continuing to do so after being told by arbcom not to? Come on here. Kwsn (Ni!) 18:20, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Ridiculous.--MONGO 23:51, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Not Supported by principles, evidence or finding of fact. --DHeyward (talk) 07:37, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

FeloniousMonk placed on civility parole

2) FeloniousMonk is subject to an editing restriction for one year. Should he make any edits which are judged by an uninvolved administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith, he may be blocked from editing for the periods of time specified in the enforcement section.

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Proposed. Ncmvocalist (talk) 12:42, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Please, God, no. Civiltity parole may be theoretically appealing, but in practice it. Does. Not. Work. The only thing it accomplishes is turning WP:AE into a giant mudpit. MastCell  17:06, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Agreed with Mast sadly. A lot of times it's next to impossible to enforce as well. Kwsn (Ni!) 17:18, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. CP has never worked, in my experience, and causes incredible amounts of work and drama at WP:AE. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:00, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Not a fan of civility parole in general. More a fan of folks moderating their own behavior. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 18:11, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

What Rocksanddirt said is my exact opinion. Dunno if it'll help, and the whole concept has always seemed kinda odd to me. Wizardman 00:42, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

See Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_arbitration/C68-FM-SV/Workshop#Civility_remedy. Ncmvocalist (talk) 11:05, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Not Supported by principles, evidence or finding of fact. --DHeyward (talk) 07:38, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

SlimVirgin desysopped

3) SlimVirgin (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) administrative privileges are revoked. She may reapply via the usual means or by appeal to the Committee, but must demonstrate that she can follow policy and community practice to a sufficient level that continued remedies will not be necessary.

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Proposed. Ncmvocalist (talk) 12:42, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Support The evidence provided by Mackan79 and the attacks on Shii were completely uncalled for. Kwsn (Ni!) 18:18, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Ridiculous.--MONGO 02:58, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Why? Neıl 龱 07:59, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Saying it's ridiculous and providing no reason for saying such just sounds pointy and makes your opinion sound worse. that's how I'm seeing it anyway. Wizardman 00:19, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Don't support this I agree with lots of the evidence against SlimVirgin, and provided more myself. Little of the evidence seems to be about sysop tools. Remedies should be relevant to the principles and findings of fact, which should be related to the evidence. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

I think you missed principle 7 in forming that comment - it is one of the most important principles in relation to this case. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:06, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Oppose per SchmuckyTheCat. Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 14:17, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Not Supported by principles, evidence or finding of fact. --DHeyward (talk) 07:40, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

SlimVirgin placed on civility parole

4) SlimVirgin is subject to an editing restriction for six months to one year. Should she make any edits which are judged by an uninvolved administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith, she may be blocked from editing for the periods of time specified in the enforcement section.

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Proposed. Ncmvocalist (talk) 12:42, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Any blocks made on SlimVirgin will no doubt be swiftly undone by one or another of her colleagues, leading to potential wheel-warring and further dramatics. Something different needs to be put in place to prevent the "uninvolved administrator" being pilloried by a minority. I would suggest some form of system where if a questionable edit is made, an arbitrator determines whether the restriction has been broached. It's not something that has been done before, but a standard approach to editing restrictions will lead to greater work for Arbcom in the longer term due to the strong likelihood of SlimVirgin being unblocked against consensus. Additionally, I would suggest her sysop rights be removed and only restored following a successful RFA - administrators must have the confidence of the community. Neıl 龱 12:00, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I haven't gone over SlimVirgin diffs yet beyond my comments above, so I'm not endorsing anything here ... but I would point out that since the committee can always reverse itself on an appeal, administrative privileges can ALWAYS be restored by appeal to the committee whether that is spelled out in the remedy or not. --B (talk) 12:04, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure why I excluded "the usual means" but I'll add it in. Re: wheelwarring etc., the usual sort of rules apply - I've spelled them out in the enforcement section. Ncmvocalist (talk) 13:06, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

See above. As far as I can tell, civility parole does not work, but is counterproductive. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:01, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

No basis for this unless of course one combs through 60,000+ edits and finds that one out of every thousand(!) and uses these outrageously few "examples" of incivility to then impose some sort of sanction on someone who (as if anyone is after they deal with so many time wasters and edit sometimes difficult subject material) is not absolutely perfect in every way.--MONGO 23:58, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Mistakes are fine, as long as you (show that you) are willing and able to learn from them, and avoid making them again. There was no explanation, apology, acknowledgement or any other sign/evidence to support the fact that she has or will. Where a consistent pattern of poor judgement emerges, particularly for an editor/admin of 4 or so years, signals the need for a remedy with the same intended effect as civility parole. Ncmvocalist (talk) 12:01, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Needle in a haystack based remedies are remedies of nothing since no problem exists in a manner which is big enough to warrant any such remedy.--MONGO 14:43, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Several people (including myself) disagree. Ncmvocalist (talk) 15:12, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Again...I am of the thinking that, no admin is ever expected to be perfect...that Slim, FM and JzG have been admins for a long time, that they are very active admins and that they all oftentimes edit controvery ridden subject matter and deal with some pretty bad policy violators in the process. This is a different situation than Tango, whose percentage of misaplication of tools and position were far greater by a long shot. Before I was desysoped long ago, I had done over 4,000 administrative functions...and my "mistake" or misapplication percentage was extremely low. We can't desysop/sanction people who err in such a low percentage...to do so would be to tell them that they aren't allowed to be human. Furthermore, I simply do not see Slim being anything other than strong in her stance on certain issues. That some might feel she has been incivil is a bit of overkill and hypersensitivity in my opinion.--MONGO 15:29, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

In looking over the evidence presented by Cla68 of Slim's alledged incivilities, many of those examples are pretty regular responses by any editor to certain matters...in fact, I see few real examples at all that would indicate any inciviity issue. These diffs are far less than the one in a thousand (out of her 60,000+ edits) that I alluded to above. We can't sanction anyone for incivility if there are so few examples spread out over such a long time frame and when the contributor has dealt with so many timewasters in so many controversial areas. Based on such miniscule percentages and what are very arguably not very good examples of any gross incivility at all, if we were to sanction SlimVirgin, we might as well sanction almost every editor out there with more than a few hundred edits.--MONGO 16:20, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

If she cannot comply with policy as a result of the number of her edits or what she has to deal with, or cannot handle the self-imposed pressure then it emphasizes the need for her to step down as an administrator. The community and/or the Committee, do not look at things based on percentage - and you should've understood that at the conclusion of your case. And I think you fail to understand the importance placed on the admin role, and the expectations that come with it. A few mistakes are compatible, but this is not merely mistakes. It's a consistent pattern (failing to live up to these expectations). Civility is not optional, as principle 7 emphasizes. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:33, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

JzG desysopped

5) JzG (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) administrative privileges are revoked. He may reapply at any time via the usual means or by appeal to the Committee, upon demonstrating that he can follow policy and community practice to a sufficient level that continued remedies will not be necessary.

5.1) JzG (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) administrative privileges are revoked indefinitely.

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Proposed; no preference until diffs added to my findings. I'm assuming he's a party of this case until/unless ArbCom specify otherwise. Ncmvocalist (talk) 01:46, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Both 5 and 5.1 are ridiculous.--MONGO 02:57, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Why is that? Sean William @ 16:48, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

This remedy should be expanded to include all admins who are willing to take on tough cases. Eventually they're bound to irritate someone, and we just can't have that. Raymond Arritt (talk) 17:11, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Then lets desysop people who aren't parties then. The RFC brought up very hard evidence of JzG being abusive in some way or another. Kwsn (Ni!) 17:16, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Why? a/improper use, and b/persistent rudeness inappropriate for the role DGG (talk) 05:22, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Oppose. Rudeness, yes. Improper use? Show me diffs- everything I've seen him do was justified. Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 14:18, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

This is a perfect example of why principle 7 should probably be principle 1 in this case. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:39, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Not Supported by principles, evidence or finding of fact. --DHeyward (talk) 07:47, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely a bad idea. JzG is a net benefit to the project by a long shot. Rouge admins are always in the spotlight, that doesn't mean they (we?) are out of order. Stifle (talk) 09:57, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm afraid if an admin repeatedly fails to comply with basic policy, then it does mean there is no net benefit to the project. Ncmvocalist (talk) 15:06, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

JzG placed on civility parole

6) JzG is subject to an editing restriction for one year. Should he make any edits which are judged by an uninvolved administrator to be uncivil, personal attacks, or assumptions of bad faith, he may be blocked from editing for the periods of time specified in the enforcement section.

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Proposed. I'm assuming he's a party of this case until/unless ArbCom specify otherwise. Ncmvocalist (talk) 01:46, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

See above. As far as I can tell, civility parole does not work, but is counterproductive. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:01, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Not Supported by principles, evidence or finding of fact. --DHeyward (talk) 07:47, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

You need to understand the core principles before understanding and commenting on the remainder - you clearly do not, and that makes the reasoning behind your comments much clearer. Ncmvocalist (talk) 08:44, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Few people commenting on the RfC agree with THAT little gem. Viridae 09:02, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Pot/kettle, Viridae...the instances of your incivility and misapplication of tools and position are, certainly based on percentages, far greater than any other active admin I can think of. It amuses me that you you are here trying to get JzG sanctioned when your atrocious admin history is so obvious.--MONGO 15:44, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

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7) {text of proposed remedy}

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Proposed enforcement

Enforcement by block

1) Should any user subject to an editing restriction in this case violate that restriction, that user may be briefly blocked, up to a week in the event of repeated violations. After 5 blocks, the maximum block shall increase to a year. All blocks are to be logged at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/C68-FM-SV#Log of blocks and bans. However, administrators are cautioned not to reverse or modify such actions without the Committee’s explicit approval, unless there is community consensus at the noticeboard to do so. The Committee will consider appropriate remedies including suspension or revocation of adminship in the event of violations.

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Proposed - needed so administrators do not wheel-war (block duration per previous case involving admin. and incivility). Ncmvocalist (talk) 12:49, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I see what you're aiming for, but this seems unwieldy. The Committee is 15 (or so) people. By the time they get together to "approve" or overturn a block, the block will have expired. The idea that "community consensus" can be achieved on a noticeboard one way or the other to block or unblock editors as controversial as those mentioned here is unrealistic. The practical effect of this enforcement proposal would be that once a sanction was imposed by an individual admin, it would be effectively impossible to review or overturn. This, combined with the natural inconsistency of having different admins reviewing reports of subjective infractions of "civility parole" on WP:AE, is a recipe for disaster. MastCell  17:10, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

See talk page. Ncmvocalist (talk) 12:08, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

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2) {text of proposed enforcement}

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Proposals by User:Jossi

Proposed principles

Misplaced Pages is a community-generated encyclopedia

1) Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia that exists because of the community that creates it and maintains it. Because the community generates the majority of the encyclopedia's content, disagreements between editors occur. The respectful airing and resolution of disagreements is normal and indeed desirable in any such community-led project.

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Proposed. I can be said better, I am sure, but it is key to this case. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:53, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Support. Friendly amendment is to replace the second sentence with "The respectful airing and resolution of disagreements is normal and indeed desirable in any such community project." (or similar wording). Raymond Arritt (talk) 00:34, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Amended. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:33, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Support as well. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:04, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Proposals by IP:80.65.250.135

Proposed principles

Communications outside of Misplaced Pages

1) Although Misplaced Pages is NOT a free speech zone, it also is NOT some kind of regime / cult aimed at repressing free speech outside of the project. Editors are free to discuss their thoughts, feelings and perspectives with members of the press. Being on first name terms with journalists is likewise entirely acceptable. Even ones that criticise Misplaced Pages.

Comment by Arbitrators:

This isn't perfect and as worded could be wikilawyered or gamed, but consider something like this. It's a rough view on it...

"The primary concerns of Misplaced Pages related to editors' communications are 1/ the prevention or reduction of gross breach of integrity of the editorial process, and 2/ the prevention or reduction of social friction, or other actions, that might detract editors from congenially collaborating on the objectives of the project, or significantly impede the aims of the project. Constructive criticism and observations on all levels can be an essential part of this, and editors are not to be censured for privately held views expressed reasonably or which do not imapct the project. In exceptional cases some kinds of communication may be incompatible with the degree of cameraderie needed for collaboration. Editors are expected to bear these in mind in their communications that might impact on the project. But otherwise Misplaced Pages as a project has no involvement in user communication."

I think that's more the point. FT2  23:18, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

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Comment by others:

Proposed. Shouldn't need saying but apparently it does so let's get it over with. 80.65.250.135 (talk) 11:58, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

You missed the point. When you are on friendly terms with a journalist, citing the journalist in support of your own opinions within article space is seriously inappropriate. Guy (Help!) 17:14, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Using the card of being in good terms with a journalist as leverage in editorial disputes is inappropriate, divisive, and against the principles of this project. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:54, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the spirit, but the wording could be better. Kwsn (Ni!) 19:27, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

JzG, Jossi, that doesn't sound too good. I did a search in the evidence so far for "journalist" and "Metz" and did not find anything from either of you that actually establishes the sort of connection you refer to, do you have evidence you are planning to introduce about this? Because if not, about all that cane be said is "that's true, but what's your point?" ++Lar: t/c 03:34, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

There is evidence in the evidence page. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 04:16, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Maybe take this to the talk for that page, because I looked at the evidence already, as I said, and I don't see where there's any "leverage" ++Lar: t/c 10:34, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

fwiw, dave souza and FeloniousMonk do mention "journalist" in their evidence. John Vandenberg 12:13, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

<undent> I've only looked at the Picard affair, in which Cla68 says he was commenting on a post by Moulton. That post responded to a question if "Picard called attention to this travesty to the press", and Moulton describes trying to interest "Brian Bergstein of the Associated Press" in the story. He calls Bergstein a "reporter" and a "journalist". Cla68's post introduced the idea of editors "having their real names in the press". As Moulton is currently indefinitely blocked, the proposed wording would not apply to him, and I'm unaware of anyone else using acquaintance or friendship with reporters in a doubtful way. Bergstein had apparently been invited to take part in a Not The Misplaced Pages Weekly session by Durova, which is completely in order. So, I'm puzzled about the intention of the proposal here. . . dave souza, talk 22:08, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Proposal by User:Dragon695

Proposed principle

Guilt by association

1) Mere membership by an editor in some external website that has members who have been involved in violations of policy is not actionable without evidence that the editor has some personal involvement in said violations.

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Proposed. Based on the CAMERA lobbying Proposed decision. There is an allegation being made by some that mere participation in sites such as Misplaced Pages Review makes one responsible for actions taken by other members of said site. May need to be worded better, but this is what crossed my mind while following this case. --Dragon695 (talk) 00:46, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Support. *Dan T.* (talk) 00:57, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

support - everyone involved seems to run afoul of this sort of idea. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 07:05, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

It depends on what that external website is. This finding is obviously about Misplaced Pages Review. Ok, that's fine. But if someone were a member of, say, Stormfront, and were to make mildly objectionable comments here that might otherwise be ignored or assumed to have been unfortunately phrased, it's not unreasonable to take those comments in the context of the person's membership. --B (talk) 11:59, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

But even in that case we are only taking the actual offenses against en.wikipedia from the folks who perform them. So, while one may make assumptions about an editor who is a member of a group like stormfront, if the editor behaves themselves here, with the exception of some mild incivility (or even not so mild) it's not an issue with the group membership (even when other members of the group are actively disrupting the project). --Rocksanddirt (talk) 15:17, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps, but given how upset LaraLove was, I think it better to err on the side of AGF and fight for NPOV on more sound reasoning. Guilt by association is a common ad hominem attack used to discredit the opponents argument, primarily because it is much easier than arguing based on the facts. Emotion always is going to affect our rationality, for better or worse, so the extent to which we can refrain from gaming others' emotions makes for a better collaborative environment. I would note, however, that I thought very highly of a recently outed editor and feel that those who used his personal information to harass his workplace are terribly misguided individuals who need to re-examine their personal ethics. That being said, I do not blame those editors who participate in the forum that was established by the harassers. It is neither appeasement nor is it enabling to have dialogue with one's enemies, its only when you participate in bad behavior that you actually cross the line. --Dragon695 (talk) 16:10, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Corrected LauraLove -> LaraLove. Hope that's okay. Neıl 龱 22:40, 22 May 2008 (UTC) Support this. Having an account on Misplaced Pages Review does not mean you are guilty of the actions of some of the members, any more than if both of you had a MySpace or Facebook account. Neıl 龱 22:40, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Ah, thank you for fixing that! ^_^ --Dragon695 (talk) 00:26, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

How about when administraters go to these offsites and link back to userpage vandalism of our editors and refer to it as "funny"? How about when we have members of this project who have been granted numerous powers go to these offsite forums and participate in hounding editors they have had disagreements with? No doubt we cannot regulate and shouldn't expect to regulate what our contributors do off-wiki, but certainly I think it is a discredit to those contributors if they use these other forums to attack, harass or participate in efforts to identify and join in character assassinations of wikipedia editors.--MONGO 12:34, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

If, and I mean if, you have conclusive evidence that mis-conduct is happening, then the principle does not apply as the second half clearly states. As to your other point, well that is your opinion. I see those violations happening, but not by any respect editors here. Most of the people on that forum just vent about perceived double standards and unfairness. Others enjoy pointing out hypocrisy with a gotcha mentality. And yet others advocate for policy changes to make Misplaced Pages better. Some want to see us improve while others want to see us destroyed. Some choose to engage in unethical behavior. Others try to engage aggrieved users in an attempt to head off the kind of disruption that happens when ill will festers for too long. It's a mixed bag of nuts, you can't judge it by looking at a single one. So to cast aspersions for mere membership alone is naturally absurd. --Dragon695 (talk) 17:57, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Proposals by User:William M. Connolley

Proposed principles

Not a bureaucracy

1) Misplaced Pages is not a bureaucracy

Comment by Arbitrators:

Comment by parties:

Comment by others:

• standard William M. Connolley (talk) 21:46, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
• Support. It is important to make sure that Wikilawyering and process don't override the overall goal of building an encyclopedia. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 07:14, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Proposed remedies

JzG commended

1) JzG is commended for his many valuable contributions to the project, both as editor and adminstrator.

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Comment by others:

obvious William M. Connolley (talk) 21:46, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

yep. Guettarda (talk) 21:49, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Agreed...one of our best admins...one of the finest at seeing BS for what it is...clear headed and well intentioned.--MONGO 22:40, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Oppose Evidence does not support remedy. Chronic inability to work well with others, terribly uncivil, and unable to control his temper. --Dragon695 (talk) 00:36, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Strong oppose on three counts. First on principle, empty remedies are entirely pointless and it is unnecessary to even discuss them. Second, an RfC where consensus seemed to lean toward him having problems equates to someone who someone who shouldn't have a remedy like this. Third, i'm 99% sure ArbCom doesn't touch "commendation" remedies anyway. Wizardman 00:49, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Well they did in the CAMERA decision. But that was a clear-cut case of professionalism at its best. --Dragon695 (talk) 01:08, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Of Course. --DHeyward (talk) 07:50, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

SlimVirgin commended

2) SlimVirgin is commended for her many valuable contributions to the project, both as editor and administrator.

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Comment by others:

obvious William M. Connolley (talk) 21:46, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

agreed. Guettarda (talk) 21:49, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Has endured more wikistalking and onwiki (as well as offsite) attacks than almost any other editor and is still around...kudos for standing her ground in the face of relentless harassment.--MONGO 22:40, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Yet... she blatantly attacks other uses, therefore I don't agree with this. Kwsn (Ni!) 22:59, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Oppose Evidence does not support remedy. Clearly engages in harassment of others, while using such claims as a shield from scruitiny of her behavior. Coerced an oversighter into hiding her embarrassing edits and mis-deeds from examination. Has many ownership problems, uses a meatpuppet to gang up on editors she disagrees with, and uses a private mailing list to canvass for various !votes. Also showed a complete lack of sound judgment in the Mantemorland case, attacking anyone who even remotely tried to uncover the egregious sockpuppetry that happened there. No, she should be roundly sanctioned for her bad behavior. --Dragon695 (talk) 00:48, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

of course. --DHeyward (talk) 07:50, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

FeloniousMonk commended

2) FeloniousMonk is commended for his many valuable contributions to the project, both as editor and administrator.

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Comment by others:

obvious William M. Connolley (talk) 21:46, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

sounds reasonable to me. Guettarda (talk) 21:51, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Has done more for the project than 99% of all other editors...we support those that are here for the general good of the project.--MONGO 22:40, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Everyone with more than 10 edits has done more for the project than 99% of all other editors. That has nothing to do with whether or not his use of the admin tools has been appropriate. This comment goes for the other two as well - why even put stuff like this in here? Even if you don't believe that these users have been abusive in their use of the administrative tools (which, btw, in the case of JzG and SV, I have no dispute with their administrative actions as a whole), the arbiters are highly unlikely to use such a finding. I can't think of a time other than the "Kelly Martin thanked" ruling that such a finding was used and that was controversial. --B (talk) 23:08, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

You guys seem to have ArbCom confused with the people who hand out barnstars... the headlines of this group of proposals remind me of the newspaper headline in one of the Back to the Future movies that switched between "Doc Brown Commended" and "Doc Brown Committed" depending on how history was changed. *Dan T.* (talk) 23:53, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Oppose Evidence does not support remedy. Has severe chronic civility problems, especially in various encounters with users he disagrees with. Has engaged in wheel warring over blocks. --Dragon695 (talk) 01:03, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Support Barnstars all around. For the record, "Doc Brown Invents Time Travel" would have been the finding of fact. I prefer to be on the "Doc Brown Commended" list. --DHeyward (talk) 07:56, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the people being proposed for commendation here are more like Biff, or perhaps Mr. Strickland, than they are like Doc. *Dan T.* (talk) 16:39, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Proposals by User:SchmuckyTheCat

tbn = to be numbered.

Proposed principles

Spirit of the rules

1) The spirit of the rule trumps the letter of the rule. (taken from Misplaced Pages:What "Ignore all rules" means)

Comment by Arbitrators:

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Comment by others:

• Principle against rules lawyering. SlimVirgin (et al) always stay within the text of the rules on revert warring, but not the spirit. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
• Support (principle only, no comment on the comment), for the same reasons as the "not a bureaucracy" above. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 07:19, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Edit warring is harmful

2) Edit warring occurs when individual editors or groups of editors repeatedly revert content edits to a page or subject area. Such hostile behavior is prohibited, and considered a breach of Wikiquette. Since it is an attempt to win a content dispute through brute force, edit warring undermines the consensus-building process that underlies the ideal wiki collaborative spirit. (taken from Misplaced Pages:Edit war, bolding mine)

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Principle against serial tandem revert warring. While SlimVirgin's group revert warring may not cross the bright line of 3RR for an individual, the policy is clear that all edit warring is harmful, including groups. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

Don't meatpuppet, don't canvas

3) Meatpuppet is a Misplaced Pages term of art meaning one who edits on behalf of or as proxy for another editor. (taken from Misplaced Pages:TEAMWORK) Meatpuppeting includes groups of established editors acting in tandem. bolded sentence is my addition

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Our policy page only describes new user recruitment of puppets; however, the first sentence describes the tandem revert warring and discussion canvassing done by those in association with SlimVirgin extremely well. Arbcom should endorse this second sentence to acknowledge tandem editing by groups of closely aligned editors who organize their behavior. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

Too broad. It only includes groups of established editors that edit in a very narrow area. If that were not the case, even this arbcom (and the committee itself would be simply a collection of meatpuppets). Some editors may argue that this is the case but that makes it a totally unworkable definition as it has no practical application. --DHeyward (talk) 08:02, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Take time off to cool off

4) If you find yourself warring with other contributors over deletions, reversions, and so on, why not take some time off from the editing process? (taken from Misplaced Pages:Ownership of articles)

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Wise advice. Some may need others to tell them when. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

When topic bans are a good idea

5) partial bans are sometimes used when a user's disruptive activities are limited to a specific page or subject matter. (taken from Misplaced Pages:Banning policy)

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The subject matter of animal rights seems to stir up the disruptive tactics by SlimVirgin. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

Another focus of trouble are articles related to Israel and Judaism. Consider such articles as New antisemitism, Battle of Jenin, Martin Luther (the issue there was the reception history of his antijudaistic/antisemitic writings) and the whole "Allegations of Apartheid" saga. To her credit, she has stepped back from editing on the subject, but who can guarantee there won't be problems should she decide to put her foot in again? 129.170.22.239 (talk) 19:38, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Proposed findings of fact

Rules lawyering

1) SlimVirgin has engaged in rules lawyering.

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Specifically pertinent to discussions around whether serial tandem revert warring is actionable and to the archives on Talk:ALF. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

Group edit warring

2) SlimVirgin has engaged in harmful revert warring together with groups of aligned editors. This group activity is likely organized by off-wiki communications.

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This is undeniable by any look at the contributions claiming it. The ANI discussion contains recognition of this as well known. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

Meatpuppeting

3) SlimVirgin communicates off-wiki with groups of aligned editors for the purpose of supporting each other in revert wars.

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The number of incidences of Crum375, et al, quickly coming to the aid Of SlimVirgin during her revert wars is too high to be coincidence. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

Topical POV

4) The subject matter of animal rights seems to stir up the disruptive tactics by SlimVirgin.

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Simple acknowledgement. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

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Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.

Please don't wikilawyer

1) The ArbCom stronly encourages SlimVirgin not to belabor the fine points of policy pages in discussions, and not to look for loopholes justifying inappropriate actions.

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Nothing negative here, encourage self-help. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

SlimVirgin 1RR

2) For edit warring, SlimVirgin is placed on 1RR.

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• A veteran administrator should not be gaming 3RR and using 3 reverts as an entitlement. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
• Oppose, the comment makes it clear that this is not preventive. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 07:22, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Serial tandem edit warring probation

3) Those who edit closely aligned to SlimVirgin are on notice that group edit warring will not be tolerated.

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See enforcement below on practical effect. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

Topical bans may be useful, probationary period

4) SlimVirgin is warned that repeated edit warring over the same subject matter may be subject to topical bans. This warning period lasts for one year.

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May be useful since the subject matter is what causes the edit warring. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

Proposed enforcement

Rule lawyering enforcement

1) In accordance with the banning policy for any user, administrators may ban, by time or topic, SlimVirgin for taking inappropriate action justified by wikilawyering. Administrators should use discretion, but not excuses.

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This is not onerous and is 100% avoidable. This simply says SlimVirgin plays by the same rules as anyone else. Too often reporting SlimVirgin results in excuses instead of reprobation. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

1RR encforcement

2) Administrators should follow a 1RR probation for SlimVirgin. A log of blocks should be kept at the bottom of the decision page.

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A veteran administrator should not be gaming 3RR and using 3 reverts as an entitlement. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

Serial tandem edit warring enforcement

3) Editors who are aware of the serial tandem edit warring probation around SlimVirgin may be blocked for performing reverts with or otherwise acting as a proxy for SlimVirgin. A log of users who have been put on notice will be kept at the bottom of the Final Decision. Crum375, Jayjg, Jossi, and JzG are put on notice with the decision and the closing clerk will copy this restriction to these users talk page.

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A workable mechanism to enforce meatpuppetry claims. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

I like this and the one above. Hopefully will prevent revert warring. Kwsn-pub 04:46, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I also think MONGO should be included as well. Kwsn-pub 06:38, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Huh...based on what? I don't edit the same things as any of these folks.--MONGO 12:44, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I know you're quick to defend her, but usually on project space pages and rarely on main. Retracted. Kwsn-pub 18:19, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Not hard to defend someone when they are being constantly sniped at over much to do about nothing and when so much of this sniping has been originating from offsite venues.--MONGO 16:02, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Topical bans, enforcement

4) Adminstrators may impose on SlimVirgin article bans on individual pages or wide subject matter bans with evidence of disruptive editing. Disruptive editing includes, but is not limited to, rules lawyering, edit warring, and serial tandem edit warring. Page and subject matter notices should be placed on relevant articles, and bans noted at the bottom of the decision page.

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Not particularly onerous if SlimVirgin doesn't edit disruptively. Can be avoided entirely by playing by the rules everyone else does. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

Proposals by John254

Proposed findings of fact

JzG

1) JzG has engaged in extensive incivility, abuse of administrative privileges, and other disruption.

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Proposed, per Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/C68-FM-SV/Evidence#Evidence_presented_by_John254. John254 15:41, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

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Note: All remedies that refer to a period of time, for example to a ban of X months or a revert parole of Y months, are to run concurrently unless otherwise stated.

JzG desysopped

1) JzG's administrative privileges are revoked indefinitely, and may not be restored except by the Arbitration Committee.

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Proposed, per the "JzG" proposed finding of fact. John254 15:51, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Vendetta.--MONGO 14:37, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

JzG banned for one month

2) JzG's editing privileges are revoked for a period of one month.

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Proposed, per the "JzG" proposed finding of fact. John254 15:54, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

If you're looking to inflame the situation further, this is a great way to do it. Raymond Arritt (talk) 15:57, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Way too harsh. Nwwaew (Talk Page) (Contribs) (E-mail me) 14:15, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

It seems like it serves no purpose other than punishment, and like Raymond said, would only inflame things further. Dr. eXtreme 19:23, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Hell even I think this is over the top - but I also think that John is covering all bases. Viridae 08:25, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

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Analysis of evidence

Place here items of evidence (with diffs) and detailed analysis

Supposed attack subpage (was mentioned by SV)

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Uh... I read here that keeping tabs on other users was completely acceptable, and one user even specifically mentions that they're used in preparation for arbcom or RfC's. I fail how to see how it's an attack page. Kwsn (Ni!) 00:35, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

My impolitic-original-research thought is that when you see the univers as us v. them, everything discussing your actions is an attack. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 02:10, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to now state my agreement with Kwsn here. Cla has manipulated a perfectly acceptable means of preparing "evidence", as it were, for a future RfC. -- Anonymous Dissident 06:42, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm confused. are you saying it is or is not an attack page? and is or is not an acceptable way to prepare Rfc's or arbcomm evidence sections? --Rocksanddirt (talk) 04:33, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

JzG's evidence

(moved from Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for arbitration/C68-FM-SV/Evidence)The diffs JzG provides in his evidence are annotated with my blue italicised comments, as follows:

• apparent Wikistalking - snide comment, but not stalking, not sure spiteful is right
• Snide and unhelpful attack, combined with dismissal of the issue of harassment of editors - sarcasm
• on the matter of antisocialmedia - not sure why this is even here, seems to be Cla68 helping to build a better article - how is this spiteful?
• links to a piece by Cade Metz (who Cla68 knows, Metz having been his outlet in the "secret"! mailing list story) to further his campaign against Jossi (incidentally, the article is characteristically inaccurate, failing to spot that Jossi !voted keep on the criticism fork afd). The irony! Cla689 creating a section on "conflict of interest" while pursuing an apparent conflict of interest... - raising Jossi's COI on Prem Rawat (something Arbcom itself subsequently became aware of, and Jossi himself agreed to refrain from editing Prem Rawat and related articles - how is this evidence of Cla68 being spiteful?
• champions Piperdown - Piperdown was unblocked - how is arguing for a user to be unblocked being spiteful, particularly considering the user WAS unblocked?
• , More Wikistalking - first diff is Cla68 (correctly) removing weasel words, second is thanbking someone for showing patience (how are these evidence of Cla68 being spiteful?)
• part of a brief edit war to try to drag Jayjg into a contentious arbitration case, reverted by people including clerks and arbitrators numerous times. - a trawl of the history of that time - , shows no such reversions by Cla68.
• a dig at Jimbo and an indication that he is on first-name terms with Metz, a long-standing sniper at Misplaced Pages - asking Jimbo a question? Calling someone by their first name? How is this spiteful?
• a sockpuppet promotes Cla68's false allegations published in the Register - nothing to to with Cla68 - irrelevant
• trolling re Swalwell, Alberta, a part of the SV = LM meme - agree here, Cla68's comment was not needed
• , once again citing Metz. - what? Providing a reference is spiteful?

To summarise, JzG's "evidence" appears to be a collation of smears. Not one of the diffs JzG gives to back up his description of Cla68 as "spiteful" give much weight to that claim, when viewed either in isolation or as a group. At worst, there are perhaps two examples of sarcasm within the 11 bulletpoints JzG uses. Neıl 龱 08:54, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

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I'm very disappointed in the seeming misuse of diffs in the evidence section (this group specifically, and others more generally). A little more good faith reading of folks comments goes a long way towards not thinking they are attacking you. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 04:37, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Cla68

Momentarily, I can't see any sufficient evidence presented to suggest that a finding or remedy be made against this party, mainly due to the lack of policy violations. If there is any new evidence added concerning this party's conduct, I'd appreciate it if a note/link is left here.

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Ncmvocalist (talk) 15:47, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

The only thing I've seen that might be worth a finding is that cla sometimes has a hard time letting go of an issue. But it's pretty weak. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 19:40, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

When I initially commented on the case at Cla68's RFC (rather cheekily as Academy Leader here) it seemed to me then, and still does now, that Cla initiated the RFC process to try to understand, from a community perspective, how his engagement in the Weiss article affected the outcome of his RFA. It seemed to me then that Cla was in the right regarding the various problems pertaining to that subject, and that he was essentially browbeaten for taking a policy-compliant approach to resolving the issues with the article. However, and this fact continually strikes me, he could have easily initiated this drive in a more sensitive manner relying on his credibility as an editor entirely without referencing or linking to WR or ASM. The day after he "violated 3rr on his own RFA," as Denny Colt put it, to link to ASM, BADSITES was inspired, which various editors adamantly tried to cram down WP's collective throat as policy over the next year.

Despite everything that happened since then that would seem to evidence the contrary, especially the Mantanmoreland ArbCom case, Cla's persistence in the use of RFC and community sanctioned processes to resolve conflicts indicates to me that he still has tremendous faith in the system. I don't believe he is or ever was acting out of spite or desire for revenge in pursuing above board DR processes. The fact that he pursues DR in areas where he himself has no prior involvement, frequently in opposition to other prominent members of the community, indicates to me that his faith in Misplaced Pages is in the system and its consensus-based processes rather than with its biggest would-be proponents. His interests, as far as I can tell, apart from article writing, are in seeing policy evenly applied everywhere, even and especially among those with tens of thousands of edits who make and enforce policy on a regular basis. DR is the only internal system by which any editor can be made accountable, and no editor can be exempt. As Cla earnestly pursues DR processes to develop consensus on and resolve community conflicts, he has my full support. Amerique 20:17, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Meh...evidence now submitted indicates that this is no longer the case.--MONGO 15:53, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Which evidence would that be? --NE2 16:13, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Administrative Activities Question

In various users evidence sections, there are descriptions of what appear to be inappropriate uses of admin tools by FM and SV. Does anyone have an idea what percentage of thier administrative tool use are these kinds of problematic actions? It looks like FM has made 47 administrator actions since March 17, 2007 (just over a year), and that sv has made 50 administrator actions since February 20, 2008 (three months).

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by Rocksanddirt (talk) 15:56, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

It's not the percentage that has any bearing. Administrators are expected to abide by policy. Occasional mistakes are ok, but when it becomes a pattern, then that's where the line is drawn (and remedies are considered). Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:11, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

In my section on FM, I identified 12 of his 40 total logged actions since May 1, 2007 (30%) that I believed to be errant. It's important to keep several things in mind, though. 10 or so of his logged actions were protecting user pages of IP addresses of Jinxmchue (talk · contribs), a chronically annoying, though not banned, user. The two were basically in a tif where Jinxmchue decided to quit using his account and just edit via whatever dynamic IP address his ISP assigned him. FM decided that this needed to be documented on the user pages of these IP address (for example, see User:67.135.49.147) and when Jinxmchue objected, FM protected the pages. While this isn't thrilling conduct, it isn't really abusive either, but the point is, 10 of FM's 40 logged actions were protecting these IP user pages. So the 12 actions I identified were really closer to half of his total incidents of using the admin tools. Sheer numbers really don't mean anything. The second thing to keep in mind is that there is a difference between misuse and abuse. Someone may misuse the tools without intending to be abusive. For example, indef blocking an IP (other than an open proxy) is a misuse because IPs change over time. That isn't done to be abusive. There was no malice or anything like that - it's just a bad idea and in one case, while preparing evidence, I found a dynamic or shared IP that he had indeffed and I removed the block because it was clearly someone else trying to use it and the person he was trying to block was long gone from it. This is not intentional abuse - it's just incorrect use - a training issue and a solvable problem. I contend that 8 of the admin actions I documented from FM constituted abuse of the admin tools and 4 were incorrect, though not abusive, use. --B (talk) 17:49, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

See my assessment, and examine all these assertions with care. .. dave souza, talk 18:01, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Obviously, wrt Ferrylodge, I meant "previous" to this arbcom request, not that the arbitration committee had predicted that FM would in the future block Ferrylodge and that such a block would be inappropriate. WRT to Rosalind Picard and James Tour, you are right that I missed that user and I have updated my presentation from "not a single" to "a single". Thank you for pointing him out, but it changes nothing I said. S-protecting an article to stop a user who is neither blocked nor banned at the time of the s-protection from editing an article is inappropriate. If FM had known that this was the reincarnation of a banned user, blocking him would have been fine, but s-protecting the article to stop someone from editing an article while they would be otherwise to edit (not blocked) is probably not a correct use of the tools. WRT to the IP indefblocks, I don't question the block, just the indefinite portion of it. IPs can change. That's not an abuse - it's an incorrect use, as I stated above. As for Schlafly, we will have to agree to disagree. I contend that he should have allowed an uninvolved administrator to handle it. --B (talk) 18:19, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

thanks for the responses! This is exactly the sort of evaluation i hoped to provoke. I fully agree that the percentage is not really the issue, but the patterns. However it is often easier to find the patterns when you start from the whole picture. (imo) --Rocksanddirt (talk) 15:22, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Analysis of Evidence of Threats, presented by User:Filll, et al.

I'm primarily responding to these allegations by Filll which have been repeated by other parties in this case, hopefully to dispel the myth that Cla68 made any threats against anyone - since this seems to be being repeated endlessly in the hope that it will become true. Verifiability, not Wikiality or mud slinging, should be our guiding principle here.

Cla68 has gone to the press at least twice in the last 6 months about Misplaced Pages issues. The first time was in connection with the Durova situation, and the second time was to discourage people from donating funds to the Wikimedia Foundation (further details available on request).

— User:Filll, here.

I would request further details of this to verify. Preferably with diffs. Unsupported accusations aren't helpful, especially since "evidence on demand" means the statement becomes impossible to verify.

The current disturbing situation arose from a longtime campaign conducted by a community-banned/indefinitely blocked editor, User: Moulton, on Misplaced Pages Review. Cla68 responded by making what appeared to be a threat to out members of the ID Wikiproject to the press.

— User:Filll, here.

It appears that in the actual posting, here, Moulton is commenting on the fact that the referenced editors are close to being outed. In this context it is sufficient to note, as Cla68 has done, that his post was in reference to the preceding posts so as to clear this allegation of making threats. Everything which follows from this point is moot, since no threat was made and Cla68 has posted his regret at what appear to be poorly worded remarks. It appears that the only way this could be mistaken is if it were taken out of context by people determined to ignore WP:AGF.

It is telling that this sort of misinterpretation (which seems to be based on confirmation bias) is extended to other statements made:

"It's unfortunate that group of editors' behavior related to Intelligent Design articles has become such a problem that uninvolved editors and admins like me have noticed the problem and gotten involved to varying degrees. I hope that the editors in question are willing and able to correct their behavior on their own. Cla68 (talk) 00:39, 9 May 2008 (UTC)"

— User:Filll, here, emphasis his.

If we were assuming good faith, perhaps the more obvious interpretation of this statement would have been parsed as such: "that (uninvolved editors and admins) like me".

Outing Wikipedians in the press can have a number of negative consequences. It can make it harder to recruit more editors, and make it harder to retain the editors we have. It goes against several Misplaced Pages policies. Even the threat to do so is a bannable offense: . It can lead to harassment, embarassment, stalking, damage to professional and private lives of editors, identity theft, death threats and worse. Clearly, this sort of threat in an attempt to blackmail other editors should not be allowed, and should not be encouraged. If this sort of behavior is allowed to continue, more will adopt it and the threats will escalate.

— User:Filll, here.

Whilst the principles of this statement are valid, the application of it to this case appears to be little more than scaremongering. The rest of Filll's statement appears to consist of much the same scaremongering, appealing to fear in order to push for sanctions based on nothing more than a (seemingly either intentional or rooted in confirmation bias) misinterpretation of statements. Further, adding emphasis to statements in order to distort meaning is disingenuous in the extreme and I suggest that said statements as primary evidence should be examined on their own merit without commentary.

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I hope this helps. 129.67.162.133 (talk) 21:03, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Cla68 clearly made threats. Even when he later backpedaled and tried to blame it on Moulton (who actually was only describing his unsuccessful attempts to interest a journalist in this matter), Cla68 continued to say that, unless we did what he wanted, he would be forced to take action. In other words, he continued to make the threats. More importantly, they were not threats devoid of conditions - they were threats intended to coerce behaviour. I, for one, took them very seriously.

In addition, of course, Cla68 has only apologised for not choosing his words more carefully. In other words, an apology for getting caught. It isn't a rejection of the tactics underlying his threat...which, of course, he would have a hard time distancing himself from, since he has already used those tactics in the past.

It's pretty funny really, to see the casual dismissal of Filll's analysis as "scaremongering" from someone who is unwilling to log in. Guettarda (talk) 21:25, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:31, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I don't have a user account. I'm an exopedian, merely stepping in to defend a fellow article creator (as much as it pains me to involve myself in wikipolitics). I would also look up the meaning of the word scaremongering, if I were you, since you apparently don't know what it means.

You're claiming that he clearly made threats. This is demonstrably wrong, since there appears to be room for interpretation here, and thus the statement and its interpretation is not clear in either the sense of non-obfuscated nor of obviously true. Again, I'd exhort you to Assume Good Faith, an excellent guideline which, if it had been followed, would have rendered this entire argument moot. If you are so adamant that you are correct, perhaps you should attempt to prove conclusively that there is no room for error. --129.67.162.133 (talk) 22:14, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Well stated in my view by the anon. Due to recent interaction with Filll I also find the analysis particularly questionable; see for instance here and here, both fairly over-the-top threats, not to mention a habit of threatening all types of editors with "userification" and/or blocking. Filll has apologized for the first of these, but I think a serious credibility problem with his interpretation of Cla's comments remains. Mackan79 (talk) 00:16, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

OK, so the only post by Cla68 being referred to is , right? (I see that it was edited, but only right after being posted; note to self: "joined" date is not "posted" date!) Going back a page in the thread, I see one previous post by Cla68 reporting on the state of the article, some speculation by others about whether Rosalind Picard has contacted the press, and related discussion about whether it would end up there. Cla68's second post to the thread was the disputed one, in which he comments, in a slightly mocking tone, that the "other side" probably isn't aware of this. I don't see any implication that Cla68 would be the one to contact the press, and don't see why the post caused such an explosion. Do any of the other posters that talked about the press edit Misplaced Pages? If not, that would explain why Cla68 was targeted, but not why the response was so disproportionate. --NE2 10:48, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Clearly, Filll has expressed disdain for our policy of WP:AGF on numerous occasions, so of course he isn't going to assume good faith. The point the anon user makes is quite apt. The only way for this to be taken as a threat is to take it out of context. Clearly this is one of those instances where the irony mark would be appropriate, if it existed. If you read the entire thread, he is being rhetorical in his analysis of the other comments. He is clearly wondering if the walled garden of the ID project is even aware that their pointy behavior is souring the subject to the point that they or their colleagues might go to the press. That's it, Cla68's statement can not possibly be construed as a threat if we applied Occam's Razor to the entire context of the discussion. No more than someone saying: "if you continue to smoke 10 packs of cigarettes a day, you'll get cancer" or "if you continue to lie about it you'll get caught one day." It is an observation, laced with irony, not a subtle attempt at threatening others. --Dragon695 (talk) 17:12, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Ashton1983's evidence

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First, this seems to be mostly a duplicate of some of Felonious Monk's evidence, as they clearly used the same diffs and concluded that Cla68 somehow enjoyed it. I'll assume good faith and take it as a coincidence, but the fact that the same evidence is presented twice should not give it undue weight. Second, I think it is rather dangerous to psychoanalyze emotional states based off of one or two word edit summaries. It could be that Cla68 is enjoying it or it could be that he is truly shocked. It is important to note that some people genuinely feel like SV had a blind eye turned to her inappropriate behavior for many years. Being flabbergasted at the extent to which one finds that this happened is not a crime itself. Indeed, it is shocking because if it were any other editor, they would have been indef blocked by now. Arbcom should not try to divine what Cla68 was feeling when he discovered the evidence. --Dragon695 (talk) 18:38, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm certain ArbCom will not try to; and will not give undue weight to repeat-evidence here. But other than that, it's a good point to raise in analysis of evidence. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:46, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Response to Tony Sidaway

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As I read TS he seems to be saying that Misplaced Pages needs to fight fire with fire, that incidental damage is to be expected, and that anything which gets in the way of this needs to be quashed. With respect for Tony’s greater experience to mine, this is in my view exactly what has gotten Misplaced Pages into some trouble in the last couple of years. Misplaced Pages is an academic undertaking, remains extremely appreciated and well-liked by the public, and in my view does much more to foster that good will (and indeed to undermine critics) by acting as a charity or a university would than as an entrenched political campaign. This also means, among other things, that we need a reasonable environment in which to edit, which incidentally seems to be all that Cla68 and some others of us are seeking. Mackan79 (talk) 15:40, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

His "evidence" is not worthy of much notice, given that it fails to include any actual evidence at all, just his own unsupported opinions. About all he's doing is spreading the meme to the effect that any ideas he dislikes can be discredited by claiming that they originated on the hated BADSITES. *Dan T.* (talk) 15:49, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I think I agree with both Mackan and Dan here. Everyone involved in this has done a huge amount more for the project than I have, but seem to have lost sight of the forest for the trees. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 19:12, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Tony's evidence is not evidence at all; it is opinion and conjecture. Neıl 龱 10:03, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

In communications with Tony about this, he indicated that (in my interpretation of his words) he feels it's evidence, because it's evidence of his opinion, regardless of the lack of any factual material (diffs, quotes and the like). I'm not sure I agree with that view. I think it's OK to let some opinion leak in to one's evidentiary statements, within reason, but that pure opinion doesn't belong in the evidence section, regardless of whose opinion it is. I'd say it was better placed in the workshop's principles or findings sections. I would urge ArbCom to disregard this "evidence" (quotes placed for pejorative effect) entirely. ++Lar: t/c 13:29, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Is his opinion important enough to be evidence? I can only see that being true if he's a party, which he isn't...but he just added himself for some reason. I guess now we can use the fact that he contributes non-evidence as evidence as evidence of his failure to provide evidence... --NE2 14:21, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

His adding himself as a party strikes me as spurious, a clerk should address that matter... ++Lar: t/c 15:27, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Looks like the kind of evidence that doesn't need diffs...seems to me to be simply a summary of what should be well known as facts.--MONGO 14:36, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Except that they are not facts in the sense of being universally agreed to "ground truths" (to turn a phrase I heard somewhere :) ), they are in dispute. ++Lar: t/c 15:27, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

"A man may go through life, systematically keeping out of view all that might cause a change in his opinions, and if he only succeeds... I do not see what can be said against his doing so. It would be an egotistical impertinence to object that his procedure is irrational, for that only amounts to saying that his method of settling belief is not ours. He does not propose to himself to be rational, and, indeed, will often talk with scorn of man's weak and illusive reason. So let him think as he pleases." -Charles Peirce, On the Fixation of Belief. Amerique 15:50, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

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