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:::In meanwhile 3rdAlcove, please, instead of getting anoyed of these facts, find some older references in the Greek newspapers for example from the 1950s of Macedonians (Greek: Μακεδόνες) doing something in Salonica. It will really stregthen the fact of the regional identity of the Greeks. (] (]) 17:12, 25 June 2008 (UTC))
:::In meanwhile 3rdAlcove, please, instead of getting anoyed of these facts, find some older references in the Greek newspapers for example from the 1950s of Macedonians (Greek: Μακεδόνες) doing something in Salonica. It will really stregthen the fact of the regional identity of the Greeks. (] (]) 17:12, 25 June 2008 (UTC))
::::I think I'm done talking to you altogether. Obviously you're here to disrupt (or well...). Cheers. ] (]) 17:31, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
::::I think I'm done talking to you altogether. Obviously you're here to disrupt (or insult our intelligence, or even worse, yours). Cheers. ] (]) 17:31, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
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These are useful to understand geopolitics and international perceptions, and the reasons and change of these perceptions through time. Perhaps a corresponding section should be created in these articles.
"The United States government holds, that any discussion of a Macedonian nation, Macedonian homeland, or Macedonian national identity, to be demagoguery, that does not hold ethnic or political reality, but expansionary attitudes towards Greece."
- Edward Stettinius, U.S. Secretary of State, December 26, 1944
Your really going to use the Cold War in this? C'mon man, Democracies took other Democracies sides no matter the issue when it comes to Cold War era. Maktruth (talk) 00:53, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Dear Fukutu, please familiarise yourself with the Macedonian conflict by reading the featured article Macedonia (terminology). Most Greeks in Macedonia do not self-identify as Macedonian Greeks, but as Macedonian period. Therefore their land, is not identified as Macedonia, Greece, but as Macedonia period as well. That will be a tough one, and I suggest we keep it as it is to avoid unnecessary conflicts. •NikoSilver•10:07, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
I'm not saying that people from this region in Greece, do or don't consider themselves Greek. They can consider themselves anything they want to. I'm just saying that Macedonia is a region in Greece, so I think having ", Greece" over "(Greece)" is an improvement. So I 'm asking, what makes "(Greece)" better than ", Greece"?--Fukutu11:36, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Let me first clear out that I am not trying to defend one or the other title. Presumably, "(Greece)", allows for the help:pipe trick, which produces "]" if you just type "]", saving you from a few keystrokes. Secondly, most related articles are of this form, like Macedonia (region), Macedonia (terminology), Macedonians (Greek), Macedonians (ethnic group) and soon Macedonia (ancient state) (see Talk:Macedon). When something works and prevents edit-wars, as apparently this has done for years in this controversial article, the worst thing to do is damage the equilibrium that has been reached through extensive talks. That ofcourse, doesn't prevent anyone from discussing it, or being bold, but generally, these are sensitive articles and bold attempts create more tension than good. Next, I'll expect a fellow Greek editor just go ahead and move Macedonians (ethnic group) to Macedonians, Slav, Macedon to Macedonia, ancient Greece, or a Macedonian Slav editor go ahead and move Macedonians (Greek) to Macedonians, Aegean and so on. Finally, what I told you before: many Greeks resent the implication that "Macedonia" needs being disambiguated by any addition, since many Greeks believe that "Macedonia is one and only and it is Greek". The parentheses (especially combined with the pipe trick) signify that better, so I suspect that it is a matter of self-identification. The same applies to our Slav friends in their related articles, like in the Gdanskprecedent (see Talk:Gdansk/Vote). •NikoSilver•13:01, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, but I was using geographical commas. Slav isn't a country so "Macedonians, Slav" would be a bit sus. While Macedonia period would be good, since a Country decided to name itself Macedonia that’s not going to happen. But I respect the brackets I really do.--Fukutu03:55, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Niko, isn't it a bit historically incorrect that Greeks state "Macedonia is one and only and it is Greek" considering from the 6th century until 1913 is was heavily Slavisized? Even today, Greek Macedonia has a heavy influence of Slavic peoples. Using the term "Macedonia (Greece)" allows Greek Macedonians to continue to call their Macedonia "the true Macedonia" and continue to allow racist slurs towards the Macedonian Republic and ethnic Macedonians. It is rare that I find a person call themselves just Spartan, or just Athenian, or just Thessalonian, or just Thracian, it seems only Greek Macedonian calls themselves only Macedonian, and if that is the case then the Hellenic branch should be broken down into Greek and Macedonian (two different ethnicities) just like Slavic is broken into many branches (one of them being Macedonian). Maktruth (talk) 23:46, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Not commenting on the rest, but it simply isn't true that Greeks don't call themselves by other regional identifiers. If anything, other regional identifiers are used more frequently than "Macedonian" is; for example, Epirotes (from Epirus) strongly self-identify as such. --Delirium (talk) 23:56, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Well, this is from individual experience that comes from an ethnic Macedonian living in a part of America with a heavy Greek population. Maybe the regional identity only is between Greeks, because whenever I speak to Greeks, they always include "Greek" when they identify themselves to me. Maktruth (talk) 00:51, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Star of Vergina
"It originated from the vergina tombs on a golden casket from the tomb of Philip, father of Alexander The Great. But this archaeological find had already long been a part of Greek identity - causing a massive diplomatic row"
"Similar abuses occurred during the Balkans conflicts following Yugoslavia's break-up - not just in Macedonia, but throughout the region, argued Stasa Babic of Belgrade University"
Fourth: your article also states "Archaeology can't be neutral. We have to be aware of it and we have to admit it." Be aware of that Maktruth (talk) 00:42, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
The article talks about how Greece disputes FYROM's claims to the name Macedonia, becuase of its northen region.
"Already angry at the use of the name Macedonia, which is also one of Greece's northern provinces, Athens insisted the flag be changed"
I added the anthem
why are you deleting the anthem?
Protected
I have protected this page from editing for a day because of the ongoing edit war in the "Demographics" section. Please discuss this matter here rather than edit warring. If the edit warring continues after the protection expires, I'm going to be pretty liberal about handing out blocks. So discuss, come to a compromise, and stop edit warring. --Akhilleus (talk) 17:19, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
This map is wrong..Ancient macedon was around the thermaic gulf and chakidiki.The expanded state was bigger and was good at the previous map state.Megistias (talk) 16:03, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
Ancient Macedon's regions and towns, prior to the 4th century BC this is the extent of ancient macedon prior to expansion to thracians territories.What is this?
It all comes down to which period of ancient Greece (and Macedon) one refers to. To give the issue some rest, here are various maps, curtsey of the Macedonian and women in antiquity expert, acclaimed writer (), and inspiring Professor of Ancient History in Clemson University, Dr. Elizabeth Carney. Her brilliant academic webpage.
I repeatedly see the word “FYROM” used as an abbreviation to the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia. In the manual for Macedonia related articles Misplaced Pages rules specify the correct use of the reference which is, again, “former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia” and not FYROM. Using FYROM to abbreviate the inconveniently long reference is not a correct way of doing so and it is offensive. Nobody uses HR to refer to the Hellenic Republic, FRG to refer to Federal Republic of Germany, etc. The UN resolution clearly states that the Republic of Macedonia will be referred to as “the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia” and not FYROM or F.Y.R.O.M. (note the use of the lower case letters for “the” and “former”)
If your intentions, as an information portal, are to be politically correct I ask you not to be subjective in your intentions. When you are using the reference, you use it as intended without modifying or abbreviating it, meaning "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia". If you intentions are to be politically incorrect, then it should be clearly implied that you are using the right to be politically incorrect. Please correct this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Noompsy (talk • contribs) 21:59, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
There was only one use of "FYROM" in the article, which I've reworded to avoid it. I agree we should probably avoid it, if only because it's a kind of strange acronym that the average reader probably isn't familiar with. --Delirium (talk) 07:19, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Genetics section
Is it particularly necessary?
Greek Macedonia
Should the article "Macedonia (Greece)" be renamed to "Greek Macedonia"? Here are the positives:
1)The term would help distinguish the Macedonia in Greece from the Republic of Macedonia
2)The term would familiarize nationalistic Greeks that their Macedonia is a part of the regional Macedonia, hence allow them to get over there "Macedonia is only one and its in Greece" obsession
3)The term would allow new readers to comprehend there is also a Greek Macedonia, instead of being confused into believing that Macedonia and Greece have the same meaning Maktruth (talk) 23:58, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Since two of your three points appear designed to push a nationalist point of view, I don't really consider this a constructive suggestion. As for the first one, is there a serious confusion? How would somebody looking for the Republic of Macedonia page ever end up at this article? They would have to go through Macedonia, which clearly distinguishes (and even lists the Republic of Macedonia article first). --Delirium (talk) 00:00, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
The issue is not whether or not it goes through the Macedonia disambiguous page. The person could goto the "Macedonia (Greece)" page by typing in "Makedonia" on accident instead of "Macedonia", which I myself have done many times. A new reader could confuse Macedonia and Greece being synonyms by the way the title is worded. Maktruth (talk) 00:46, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
How can I explain for you to understand, I meant to type "Macedonia" but I wrote "Makedonia" because of a typo on the "c". What I am trying to state is "Macedonia (Greece)" may give unknown audiences that Macedonia and Greece are synonyms, does this make sense? Maktruth (talk) 05:16, 22 April 2008 (UTC)
The title is fine as is. "Ambiguous term (disambiguator)" is the common format for such article titles. But shouldn't the article have a dablink on top, like For other uses, see Macedonia (disambiguation) or something? Fut.Perf.☼12:11, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
I've brought the dablink back. It was there for ages and was taken out by a vandal a couple of weeks ago and apparently forgotten when tidying up the vandalism . Fut.Perf.☼12:16, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
I believe that even the parenthesis is enough. Macedonia is a word of greek origin (μακεδνός) but ok let's say this is out... Saying "Greek Macedonia" means (you carefully haven't stated that) that the only "real" macedonia is the one of the republic. No thanks I prefer the parenthesis, more NPOV and it's fair enough as a compromise. Perhaps the RoM must have a disambiguation that says "Slav" or declares that it's got nothing to do with the macedonia in Greece and it's history. I think that would be a far better solution/compromise wouldn't it? Plus saying Greek Macedonia, what the hell, don't people (not the extremists or the victims of propaganda) know enough about it? Isn't it clear that in an article that reads "Macedonia (Greece)" it means that it refers to the Greek province which by the way includes the history of Ancient Macedonia? I think it is. End of story.87.202.12.231 (talk) 13:41, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
Makednoi - a Dorian tribe?
It is written here that : "According to Herodotus, the Makednoí were a tribe of the Dorians."
Actually this is wrong... What Herodotus says is that the Makednoi migrated both to the south and to the north. Those who went south to Peloponnesus were CALLED Dorians. Thus, the Dorians are (according to Herodotus) a Macedonian tribe and not the other way around.
I here present the text in question :
“Although the one nation nowhere yet went out, the Lacedaemonian was very much wandering. For, in the time of King Deucalion, it was settled in the land of Phthia, and in the time of Dorus, the son of Hellen, in the country under Ossa and Olympus, the so-called Histiaean. From the Histiaean, after it had been expelled by the Cadmeians, it was settled in Pindus called Macedonian. Thence again it changed its place to the Dryopian land, and from the Dryopian thus it came to Peloponnesus, and was called Doric.” (Herodot, Book I, 56.3)
So according to Herodotus this Greek tribe was first called Macedonians and THEN called Dorians..
Thus I propose that this text be changed to "According to Herodotus, the Dorians were a tribe of the Makednoi that migrated south to Peloponnesus."
You're quite right; I've changed it to "both the Dorians and Macedonians descended from the Makednoi tribe". How's that? ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 04:03, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Still not good...
According to Herodot (always) the Dorians were a Macedonian tribe. Of course Macedonians and Makednoi is the same thing. He said that first they were called Macedonians then they migrated into Peloponnesus and afterwards they were called Dorians. This is actually another proof (according to Herodot) that the Macedonians were Greeks since according to him even the Spartans are Macedonians (this is the actual reason for this text, to comment on the Spartan descendance..) If you are afraid that it will be misunderstood add the Lacaedemonians as Herodot does. Nobody thinks that the Spartans were not Greeks??!!
I always thought Μακεδόνες was just a later form of Μακεδνοί, referring to the Macedonians after the Dorians split off and headed south. Were the Macedonians still referred to by the older name after the establishment of the kingdom of Macedon? ·ΚΕΚΡΩΨ· (talk) 10:07, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
This region was apart of today's Republic of Macedonia before it was divided to Serbia, Bulgaria and Greece, not the Ottoman Empire. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.162.63.204 (talk) 16:45, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Please verify the anthem and the flag and about the tendencies in writing of the article
I will ask for the editors to verify the sources for the the anthem and the flag of Macedonia (Greece). Who enacted the the anthem and the flag and when? I can not find an anthem and a flag on the website for the perifery Macedonia and Thrace.
The second objection is about the tendencies in this article. This article is being heavily Macedonized during these two years and the neutrality can be at risk. There is only censual facts about Greek people in Macedonia (Greece), but in Misplaced Pages these Greek people are forwarded as separate ethnic group that is slowly Macedonized (attributed with Macedonian) in the edits. In the old revision of the article Macedonia (Greece) from 12 May 2007 says: "The inhabitants are overwhelmingly ethnic Greeks (Greek Macedonians)...". In the old revision of the page 22 November 2007 says "... Greek Macedonians have developed a strong regional identity..." (no mention of Macedonians (Μακεδόνες)). And today is written: "Macedonians (Greek: Μακεδόνες, Makedónes) is the term by which ethnic Greeks originating from Macedonia, particularly the Greek region of Macedonia, are known. The Macedonians have a strong regional identity..."
The process of Macedonization of Greeks is followed by second attribution process of Slavonizing the ethnic Macedonians in the parallel articles and in the manual (with the use Slav Macedonians, Slavic language, Slavs, etc. Here we have a term Slavic ethnic Macedonians). The people in the Rainbow party are declared as only Macedonians (Greek: Μακεδόνες, Makedónes). Check on their website one more time and transfer the information in Misplaced Pages as it is.
Also the statements "Vlachs (Aromanians and Megleno-Romanians) or Slavophones, who largely identify as Greeks and belong to the Greek Orthodox Church" sounds rather negatory to these minorities. If the people are Vlachs, they are clearly not identified with ethnic Greeks (they have only Greek citizenship). The difference in the language identifies them as ethnic Vlachs.
(Toci (talk) 22:24, 22 June 2008 (UTC))
There is no info about the flag there, only about the symbol. Says in the text with the reference that the Greek parlament passed a bill about the Greekness of the Vergina Sun symbol in 1993, not a bill about the flag of Macedonia (Greece). The flag seems is more recent invention or application of the Vergina Sun symbol, but there are no sources like origin, dates, who established it, etc. The flag is not even on the website, there is only Greek and EU flag there. (Toci (talk) 15:43, 23 June 2008 (UTC))
Greek Vlachs largely self-identify as Greeks so they're Greeks (you see, if that weren't the case, the wiki article would be calling YOU simply Bulgarians or Slavs and not Macedonians (ethnic group); no double standards ey?). "Macedonian" for Greeks is simply a(n ethno-)regional identity. End of story. You've been told all these a million times before. Stop posting your inane rants or I'll start removing them. It's getting annoying. Are you REALLY that obtuse or just playing? Not to mention comments such as "slavonizing ethnic Macedonians"...Jesus Christ almighty. 3rdAlcove (talk) 04:09, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes, in modern Greece most Vlachs would take offense at an implication that they didn't count as "real" Greeks in the national-identity sense. This is distinct from the Turkish minority, which considers itself Turkish but with Greek citizenship---the Vlach minority considers itself fully Greek. --Delirium (talk) 04:28, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes, exactly. All this talk of "respecting our self-identification" from Macedonians (Toci here has made the same point before), yet they don't seem to extend the same courtesy to others (that's not to say that -all- Vlachs, and since their first appearance on the Helladic mainland no less, have considered themselves Greek, of course). 3rdAlcove (talk) 04:34, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
3rdAlcove, I think it is wrong to remove any talk that deal with the quality (rather the neutrality) of this article. I gave a timeline how the ethnic Greeks became only Macedonians in the edits of the article in these two years. Being only Macedonian can be rather misguiding especially in regard to the ongoing Macedonia naming dispute (people can refer to this article). It is also good for the people to know that the official regional declarations of the ethnic Greeks as Macedonians are of recent date (like the Karamalis statement in 2007). Now I am also trying to discover when the flag was enacted or if it is enacted at all. Strangely I even saw a version of the current flag of Republic of Macedonia on blue background on some Greek nationalist videos. Maybe this flag can be included as well in the article as the second flag for Macedonia (Greece).
I am trying to say that it is wrong to write in the article that Vlachs are Greeks (they have unique culture and language). The Vlachs are only Greeks now because Greece does not collect data on ethnicities. It is wrong to write that someone is something that is not, that was my point, regardless if they get offended for not being as fully Greeks. They are what they are. You can write in the article: there are numbers of Vlachs who live there (by the census from X were X population) but because Greece does not collect data on ethnicities it is unkown how many Vlachs live today... And please "Since the first appearance of the Vlachs on the Helladic mainland"? What does this mean?
In meanwhile 3rdAlcove, please, instead of getting anoyed of these facts, find some older references in the Greek newspapers for example from the 1950s of Macedonians (Greek: Μακεδόνες) doing something in Salonica. It will really stregthen the fact of the regional identity of the Greeks. (Toci (talk) 17:12, 25 June 2008 (UTC))
I think I'm done talking to you altogether. Obviously you're here to disrupt (or insult our intelligence, or even worse, yours). Cheers. 3rdAlcove (talk) 17:31, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
