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Revision as of 06:23, 15 July 2008

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Hello, Bdell555, and welcome to Misplaced Pages! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

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Potsdam Declaration

Here some quotation from the "Official Gazette of the control council for Germany" (Documents relating to the establishment of the Allied Control Authority) - published by the "Allied Secretariat" in Berlin, Elssholzstrase 32.

Under item VI (Statement by the Governments of the United Kingdom, the United States of America and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republic and the Provisional Government of the French Republic on the zones of occupation in Germany) they write:

"1. Germany, within her frontiers as they were on 31st December, 1937, will, for purposes of occupation, be divided into four zones, one to be alloted to each Power as follows ..."

Under item VIII (Report on the Tripartite Conference of Berlin) and there Article IX concerning the western frontier of Poland they write:

"The three Heads of Government reaffirm their opinion that the final delimitation of the western frontier of Poland should await the peace settlement."

Until this peace conference the disputed territories "shall be under the administration of the Polish State and for such purposes should not be considered as part of the Soviet Zone of occupation in Germany."

So keeping in mind this facts sincerely it´s obvious that the (West-) Allies didn´t order any transfer of Germans out of their ancestral homelands because by doing this they would have created a fait accompli.

Actually Russia and Poland created such accomplished facts by expelling most of that Germans - even quite long before the Potsdam Declaration.

(Comment: Any forced transfer of population is a crime against humanity; and this it was already at times of 1945 - Nazi-Germany was trialed exactly for such crimes, too.)

-- Wikiferdi 13:14, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

There isn't much point in examining this much further as long as Witkacy is still out there reversing both our edits automatically.Bdell555 02:33, 25 August 2005 (UTC)

Hello Bdell555,

how does it work "reverting automatically"? I think it´s against the rules of Misplaced Pages, isn´t it?

--Wikiferdi 09:58, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

ihr reversion

In reading the discussion at Talk:Holocaust denial#Description of reversion policy needed, regarding the reversion of ihr material, the discussion you may have been referring to probably took place here, User talk:Willmcw/archive6#Harry Dexter White, and not on the White page. nobs 19:12, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Image Tagging Image:Bdell555.jpg

This media may be deleted.

Thanks for uploading Image:Bdell555.jpg. I notice the 'image' page currently doesn't specify who created the content, so the copyright status is therefore unclear. If you have not created this media yourself then you need to argue that we have the right to use the media on Misplaced Pages (see copyright tagging below). If you have not created the media yourself then you should also specify where you found it, i.e., in most cases link to the website where you got it, and the terms of use for content from that page.

If the media also doesn't have a copyright tag then you must also add one. If you created/took the picture, audio, or video then you can use {{GFDL}} to release it under the GFDL. If you believe the media qualifies as fair use, please read fair use, and then use a tag such as {{Non-free fair use in|article name}} or one of the other tags listed at Misplaced Pages:Image copyright tags#Fair_use. See Misplaced Pages:Image copyright tags for the full list of copyright tags that you can use.

If you have uploaded other media, please check that you have specified their source and copyright tagged them, too. You can find a list of 'image' pages you have edited by clicking on the "my contributions" link (it is located at the very top of any Misplaced Pages page when you are logged in), and then selecting "Image" from the dropdown box. Note that any unsourced and untagged images will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. -- Longhair 13:02, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

I should think it would be obvious that I created the image. Would I post the image of someone else to this page, after writing BDELL555 right on the image? If I can't be trusted to not pass off the image of someone else as my own, how can you be satisfied with my claims to copyright? I suppose I could just create it again, at which time the rules may just change again without regard for common sense...Bdell555 21:12, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Redlinks

Hi there! A redlink, where the subject of the redlink is significantly related to and helps understand the context of the article it's in, and where the subject of the redlink also merits an article of its own, is not only allowable but encouraged on Misplaced Pages - where the great majority of useful articles started out as redlinks, and many endured as redlinks for a long time before a volunteer took on writing them up.

Telling another editor to go create an article, on the other hand, is generally discouraged; we're all volunteers here, and subject to not doing anything to lower the quality of Misplaced Pages, railroad reasonable consensus, add fuel to fires, etc., we should all try to trust each other to contribute on the noteworthy subjects that interest us, in the ways that interest us, at the times and paces of our choosing. As it happens, I'll start something up on Mary Jo Leddy right now; it's just something to keep in mind going forward.

Anyway, all small issues. I appreciate your work to help make Gerard Kennedy and other articles accurate, referenced and well-written. Thank you! And cheers. Samaritan 00:48, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, well someone actually said “It's usually better to resist linking these items until you get around to writing an article on each one” in the Wiki guidelines, so I would suggest you also correct that person for attempting to tell other Wiki editors what to do, just to stay consistent. Not that I find the Wiki guidelines necessarily infallible, since the guideline that linking policy should be governed by a consideration for what helps “readers to understand the current article more fully” (a policy I fully appreciate) is directly contradicted by the notion that links to nowhere help reader understanding. In my own case, the request for an article was conditional, with the condition being that somebody somewhere actually wants an article, as opposed to just a link. The fact an article has now been created is satisfactory proof that somebody somewhere wants more than just a link.Bdell555 15:53, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for photos!

Thanks for photos of various places in North China that you've uploaded recently to en.wikipedia.org! Would you however consider uploading your photos in the future not to en.wikipedia.org, but to Misplaced Pages Commons (commons.wikipedia.org)? This way they will be immediately usable not only in English Misplaced Pages, but also in all other Misplaced Pages projects, with the same syntax. Vmenkov 22:24, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

3-revert-rule violation

You have violated the three-revert rule on Alger Hiss. Any administrator may now choose to block your account. In the future, please make an effort to discuss your changes further, instead of edit warring.

I have chosen not to report you at this point, because you did not receive a warning during your spree of unsupported reverts against the clear consensus of involved editors. But understand, you inarguably violated the very clear and straightforward three-revert rule with the following four reverts in the span of less than eleven hours: , , , and . I will note that in violating the three-revert rule, you reverted not one, not two, but three other Misplaced Pages editors. If you violate the rule again, you will be reported and you will be blocked.—DCGeist 07:57, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

1) re the above exhortation to "made an effort to discuss changes further", I have literally written THOUSANDS of words with respect to my changes. And that's just today. Words that you have greated with silence.

2) A common sense definition of a reversion is an edit which makes no changes other than back to the previous version. I have NOT done that 4 times within 24 hours. For example, I accomodated the Redspruce's request to drop "in any case" in one of those edits, which makes for a rather bizarre "edit war", does it not? Seriously, I think you have quite confused who is contributing and who is reverting here.

3) My remarks in the section above concerning "Reversion policy" would apply here. I advance some proposals there for minimizing edit warring and working collaboratively to build up an article that have received no response from you.

4) Why don't you report yourself for violating the Wiki policy that calls for a "common reference text" cite for summary conclusions about an issue while you are it. That's the very same policy you called up and demanded I adhere to earlier. Or do the rules only apply to me and not you?Bdell555 09:11, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Alger Hiss article

Bdell555, thanks for making a better edit. Well done. Call on me for back up on other articlce. Jtpaladin 12:16, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

I think they've more or less given up contesting the issue on the Talk page, so it will probably just go to an edit war. I think fair-minded people will support our edit so we just need to get more people involved.Bdell555 20:23, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Nobs was blocked for a time, but then something else happened, so I am not sure. Sorry. --Cberlet 18:33, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

3RR

You may be aware that a report has been made about you at WP:3RR. While the report is not yet complete, I have looked at some of your editing and would like to politely remind you that threatening to start an edit war by numbers is really not a good idea at all, and may see you blocked. ELIMINATORJR 14:56, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

• Please note that I wasn't actually accusing you of anything - I was merely suggesting that such an edit-war would be completely counter-productive. You will notice that I closed RedSpruce's 3RR notification as closed without any sanctions. Please do not feel that this means you cannot edit the article in question, only that edit-warring over it is not a good idea. Thanks, ELIMINATORJR 20:22, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
  • Apologies if it seemed like that. I usually copy one previous quote into the new page so that new users can see where the discussion starts, and yours was a bit long :) However, as you say it is a bit unfair, and so I'll start afresh with a blank page. It genuinely wasn't an attempt to show you in a bad light. ELIMINATORJR 21:05, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
    • You are clearly quite reasonable and fair. My only reservation is your advice to Redspruce to "don't hesitate to take it to 3RR (if applicable), or WP:RFPP," when just in the past few days Redspruce ran to WP:RFPP to block a user, now registered as Reargunner, for removing the word "apparently" from the article and today Redspruce is in an extensive argument with not just Reargunner but with others as well over the word. The matter should have been left to the Talk pages from square one, IMO, with everyone retaining equal rights to edit.Bdell555 21:29, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

nobs

Nobs is perma banned by order of the Committee (Nobs03 and others) Dagomar 19:45, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

I dont know what the infraction was, but given the fact there are other users, such as Amalekite, who was banned not because of anything he ever did on or to Misplaced Pages, but because of political associations outside of Misplaced Pages, I can't help but wonder if politics had anything to do with it. I remember Nobs' editing of and Talk commentary on articles like Harry Dexter White and thought that, subject to some reservations, he was a generally a calm, reasonable, and, most importantly, well informed editor.Bdell555 21:49, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Continuation of McCarthy discussion from Flanders page

Dear Bdell,

I offered to bring the discussion across from Talk:Ralph Flanders to Talk:Joseph McCarthy on the summary statement that you felt needed improvement, but I see a presence there from you, already. Unless you expect more from me, I'll hope that you and those interested in the Joseph McCarthy page can find a mutually satisfactory solution to the issues that you raise. You're welcome to alert me, when you feel that has happened.

Sincerely, HopsonRoad (talk) 23:50, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Dear Bdell,

I noted your last post on the Talk:McCarthy page. I tried to send you an e-mail about it. My suggestion is that we "assume good faith," but call the editor to account if we see a violation of that good faith. I recognize that you feel that there's been a violation before. When the violation is made is when to address it. There are plenty of people watching to note any such a violation in this case. My concern is that your post continues to whack the hornet's nest of an acrimonious discussion after the hornets have gone to bed. My feeling is that it would be more politic to delete your post and be watchful.

Sincerely, User:HopsonRoad 17:42, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

My reading of Redspruce's comments about reverting a "consensus" is that he wouldn't view it as a "violation" of anything; it would simply be making the article better (http://en.wikipedia.org/User_talk:RedSpruce#Alger_Hiss_summary arguably supports this as well). I think we should "assume good faith" accordingly. In other words, I think you are begging the question to assume it would be a violation of good faith. Indeed, I simply asked whether he would revert in the future, regardless of whether he, or anyone else, would see that as some sort of violation. In any case, I had made the mistake of assuming that "the hornets had gone to bed" before and see little point in others repeating that mistake. How bout if I decline to ever post again to that McCarthy Talk page thread? Redspruce or DCGeist could then get the last word and it would be impossible to continue any debate there, whether "acrimonious" or otherwise, no? I also think our primary responsibility is to ensure that Wiki articles are not inaccurate, as opposed to ensuring that any related discussion is not "acrimonious". All of your observations about being welcoming, being polite, not engaging in personal attacks, etc. all continue to apply, of course. My primary concern is that bad edits persist in Misplaced Pages when editors are intimidated into not challenging them because the discussion would quickly turn "acrimonious". I think we need to speak clearly, logically, and as politely as possible without detracting from "clearly" and "logically". When the other side engages in personal attacks, we should try to be magnanimous and ignore them, as opposed to getting away from the text of the article by making an issue out of them. I totally recognize your point about how distateful it all is and I am no fan of confrontation. I made the comment I did in the hope that we could avoid repeating the whole acrimonious process again in the future. In any case, if you want to delete my comment, I have no objections, since it would simply be too much for me to start an argument with YOU.Bdell555 03:19, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Dear Bdell,

For my part, I feel that your participation in the discussion of the McCarthy and Flanders pages resulted in an improvement of both articles. So, I would hope that you would stay in the game. It appears to me that the topic "neighborhood," pertaining to the whole Red Scare era, is a rough one where civility seems to be an exception, rather than the rule.

So, it seems that the approach that you suggest above is appropriate. You might want to look over the page that I was looking for the other day at Misplaced Pages:Dispute resolution. I found the advice to be very useful for when one is operating in a tough neighborhood.

As to deleting the comment that I alluded to above, that seems moot to me now, given the FYI posting below.

Sincerely, User:HopsonRoad 20:04, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

fyi

WP:STALK If "following another user around" is accompanied by tendentiousness, personal attacks, or other disruptive behavior, it may become a very serious matter. RedSpruce 17:27, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

The one difference between your vandalism (to one article in particular) and that of most other vandals is that I think you would stop if you were ever compelled to apply the principles you demand of others to yourself, Redspruce. Hence the value of noting those occasions. And there seems to be no interest in resolving the issue where it is occuring, hence the necessity of noting those occasions. Trying to bring a resolution to an edit war (for the second time, I might add) is not "disruptive". I am interested not in some sort of childish one-up-manship but in what you believe since consistency across your beliefs would resolve our biggest disputes.Bdell555 03:19, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

McCarthy FAQ

Thank you for your edit, Bdell. I feel that you're right to defuse the language there, even if it was probably technically correct. Sincerely,--User:HopsonRoad 14:54, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

GA Review?

Dear Bdell: Would you consider performing a GA review of Ralph Flanders? You have commented on the article with respect to his relationship to Joseph McCarthy. He was also notable as an industrialist and an advisor on economic policy. The article has received a peer review.

You appear to be committed to Misplaced Pages standards and have the judgment to assess articles therein. I should note that I did reinstate "sensational," after it was restored at Joseph McCarthy, following my policy to let that article hold precedence on terminology. I did, however, post my proposed change in Talk:Ralph Flanders and waited for comments, so that it would not appear that I "sneaked" it back in.

For my part, I try to do at least one GA Review for every one that I request. So, I've agreed to do one on Dick Cheney. If you would consider doing the review, please check out the Misplaced Pages:Good article nominations page and see what's entailed. Sincerely,--User:HopsonRoad 14:01, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for your review, Bdell. It was critical in the best sense of the word. N-J Seigel expressed similar concerns. Perhaps I'll try paring down the article to a minimalist version and looking at what's essential. it would be most helpful if another editor with a fresh eye had the expertise and interest to get involved. However, there doesn't seem to be such out there.

I've found the Time article and will look for the Vermont Encyclopedia. It's ironical that you appear to be off yonder "across the pond" and have access to the VE and I'm in Vermont and didn't know that it existed! My assessment of Flanders is that, apart from the McCarthy episode, he was undistinguished in politics; so, the less "fluff," the better. I'll post specific replies to your review after I've had a chance to look over the sources. Sincerely,--User:HopsonRoad 14:16, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

I've posted my replies to your review here. I've also made some changes to the article, including three new citations (two at your suggestion), plus a new link (reflecting your suggestion).

Having just done a GA review of Dick Cheney, I know that it's a daunting task. However, if you would consider doing it for Ralph Flanders, I believe that it would strengthen the article further. Sincerely,--User:HopsonRoad 17:40, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Bill Ayers article

• Warning - for ongoing incivility and edit warring in an attempt to introduce point-of-view material derogatory to a living person. The material you keep adding in an attempt to discredit and cast doubts on the veracity of the subject's statement is improper, among other reasons because it is argumentative and introduces analysis. I am removing it yet again. You are at WP:3RR on this today. Please stop, or you may be temporarily blocked from further editing the encyclopedia. Wikidemo (talk) 18:28, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Guys...both of you should take this to Talk. Kaisershatner (talk) 18:31, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Agreed with Kaistershatner.Bdell555 (talk) 18:41, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

• Second warning - for this edit. Incivility getting close to wikistalking. Please do not make further comments like that on my talk page.Wikidemo (talk) 20:13, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Who was the first one to make a comment on a Talk page, again? I'm just poking some fun at your logical consistency there, buddy. I'd say "please do not make further comments like" THIS on MY Talk page, but frankly, you, and everyone else, can pretty much say whatever you want!Bdell555 (talk) 20:28, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Trying to figure this out. You agree with the label terrorist yes? I wholeheartedly agree and think the term, which is merely a factual label, should be included in the entry. The use of the term "radical" seems to be okay, but radical in what sense? Radical in the sense that he set bombs to coerce the government into doing something he wanted them to do...which is the dictionary defintion of terrorism. I was going to make the edit, because the article starts with him being a professor then on the side mentioning he was a radical, but it's deceptive in that form. I will wait before I make any edits or argue any points on the talk page.216.135.32.226 (talk) 16:21, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

You have previously shown an interest in the Barack Obama article. Please state on the Talk page of the Barack Obama article whether you Support or Oppose Scjessey's version.

http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Barack_Obama#Let.27s_see_whether_you_really_have_a_.22new_consensus.22_.28version_2.29

Kossack4Truth (talk) 02:28, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Political positions of Barack Obama

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war. Note that the three-revert rule prohibits making more than three reversions on a single page within a 24 hour period. Additionally, users who perform a large number of reversions in content disputes may be blocked for edit warring, even if they do not technically violate the three-revert rule. If you continue, you may be blocked from editing. Please do not repeatedly revert edits, but use the talk page to work towards wording and content that gains a consensus among editors. If necessary, pursue dispute resolution. Oren0 (talk) 02:27, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

I'll respond to this on your user page.Bdell555 (talk) 02:29, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

I know you're aware of this rule and I know you're trying to do what's best for the article (for what it's worth, I actually agree with your position) but edit warring isn't the answer. Oren0 (talk) 02:31, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

(reply to your message on my talk page) I just used a predefined template for that warning. I'm aware that you've tried to use the talk page and that you're doing what you think is right but talk space is for making and building consensus without disturbing the article unnecessarily. Regardless of what you put on the talk page 3RR still applies (and a glance at this page indicates you're well aware of that rule). Try to build agreement and try not to break policy; I'd hate to see you get blocked for making edits I think are more or less correct. Oren0 (talk) 02:40, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm aware of the need to build agreement. Indeed, that's just common sense, whatever the formal policy. That means use of the Talk page AND trying different editing approaches in the face of opposition instead of two or more parties just banging their heads against the wall. In essence that's why I objected to your use of a "template" to deal with the matter: tailored solutions that acknowledge what's happening in the particular are more appropriate in my mind. But that doesn't mean I don't recognize that 3RR applies: according to the policy, "a revert means undoing the actions of another editor". When I added the "other than his own", that was an addition (or a reversion of a revert from days ago, if you prefer). Likewise, adding "nonetheless" did not undo anyone else's actions.Bdell555 (talk) 02:56, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

You're right, I shouldn't have used a template, I am aware of WP:DTTR. I'm not saying you are or aren't violating 3RR (I counted two reversions) but there's no question you're edit warring and edit wars are still disruptive to article space. Given your previous talk page warnings, you probably know this better than most. Oren0 (talk) 03:28, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, I disagree. I don't believe I'm edit warring / "disrupting the artice space"(?), or if I am, it's under a technical definition that misses the larger and more important question of whether I'm responding to the other party with words and actions that reflect acknowledgement of their views as opposed to the "head bashing" I mention above. If your conclusion from my warnings is that I'm a problem editor, I'd remind you that it's just as possible the party warning me is the problem editor. I'd avoid jumping to conclusions without investigating the circumstances. If you never have confrontations with problem editors, good for you, but someone will likely confront them and that may even be desirable. If you have still have a problem with my editing, feel free to take it up with a third party.Bdell555 (talk) 03:41, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

• Hi Bdell555. I just placed a compromise on Talk:Political positions of Barack Obama. Please take a look at it when you have a chance. Thanks --Floridianed (talk) 16:38, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Your past experiences with User:RedSpruce

I saw your recent post to Misplaced Pages talk:Requests for arbitration/Footnoted quotes/Proposed decision. While I certainly appreciate the additional information, I am disappointed that it was not available to Arbcom while the evidence-gathering process was still going on. Unfortunately, Arbcom took the case but refused to deal with the title issue of the arbitration. This has left RedSpruce still making a number of blanket reverts, though he has offered vague glimmers of hope for a peaceful resolution on his part. I will review your experiences more carefully as a guide for dealing with my ongoing issues. Alansohn (talk) 14:44, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Re: Questions concerning Arbcom case

I originally drafted a number of BLP-related provisions on the case workshop because a significant portion of the evidence submitted in the case involved BLP matters; the proposals in the final decision were taken straight from that. Kirill 01:09, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

RSN?

I saw the argument you were having at Holocaust denial - and jpgordon's page, but not having the background, can't make head or tail of it. But it seems like the place you want to go might be WP:RS/N - the more details about what source you want to use and for what purpose, in what article, the better.John Z (talk) 08:56, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

I appreciate the link. I don't plan on trying that route right now since I think any superficial consideration would lead one to simply say, what? course not... never, and a deep consideration gets rather involved.Bdell555 (talk) 04:03, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Dresden

Friedrich Kellner

Thank you for your help with this article. You were right to ask for a source regarding Fred William, and I also agree with the changes you made, based on your reading of the source. Rskellner (talk) 03:30, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

It kinda seemed like there was some possibility Fred William might have some Nazi sympathies, but singing the Horst Wessel Song might not mean that much in Germany at the time for a young, anti-establishment guy (as opposed to that happening today), and joining the German American Bund doesn't really either, because I'd almost be more surprised if he didn't join, having just arrived in the US as an adult from Germany. I think he joined the US Army as opposed to being drafted, so any Naziism is more plausibly just a bit of opportunism, more revealing of a lack of enthusiasm for other codes of conduct than of a positive enthusiasm for Naziism (it seems he abandoned his wife and children in America, amongst other things). That's what my limited German suggested to me from the article, at any rate. I am in Stockholm now and plan to head to the Synagogue here in the hopes of seeing the diary.Bdell555 (talk) 04:00, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

The exhibit in The Great Synogogue in Stockholm was for the month of October 2007, and it closed on November 1. But Lars Raij, the Director of the Library (the exhibit was in the library downstairs in the synagogue), might still have some of the material available. Regarding Fred William, I'm afraid his sympathies were very certainly pro-Nazi, as evidenced by the 20 page F.B.I. dossier that I have on him. In fact, it was the F.B.I. investigation in New York in 1943 that made him join the U.S. Army. But because the article is about his father rather than about him, all of this information is not pertinent to the article, so I will not add it. Too bad we weren't in touch earlier. I was in Calgary a few months ago when the Calgary Jewish Film Festival showed the documentary, "My Opposition - The Diaries of Friedrich Kellner," and you might have enjoyed seeing it (it was produced in Toronto). I believe it will air on Global Television again (it was shown on Global in prime time last June). Again, thanks for your help with this. I greatly appreciate it. Rskellner (talk) 04:55, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Obama

You make a good point on that talk page of Obama. I would agree with you there, but it's protected. Pop6 (talk) 19:12, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, well I find it somewhat ironic that my edit is supposedly neither notable nor relevant (and should therefore be reverted) yet it attracts so much attention.Bdell555 (talk) 00:31, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Acorn

It's difficult to use opinion pieces as sources, although if John Fund gets something factually wrong in The Wall Street Journal he's going to get in trouble. The Pittsburgh source is also opinion. If we can, it's better to source to news reports. In fact, there are very few news articles that touch on this. So we've got potential WP:RS problems, potential WP:WEIGHT problems, and if we do too much conclusion-drawing, we start to have WP:OR problems. It seems to me we have some problems with a sentence saying not so much that Obama worked for ACORN, which ties us up in technicalities over how much Project Vote is controlled by ACORN. I think it's better to say that Obama worked with ACORN, something I think we already have sourcing for. It's been a while since I looked over the proposed language. I need to get to bed now. I'll try to take a look at it in the morning. I think just being able to tell readers that Obama worked with Acorn in some way would be helpful, and interested readers could then follow the link to the Acorn article. I'd forgotten about that "Early life" article. It's very short and there's so much information out there ... Noroton (talk) 05:14, 13 July 2008 (UTC) (((fixed typo Noroton (talk) 05:16, 13 July 2008 (UTC))))

Let's see what Rick Block, Wikidemo and some other editors have to say in the face of the evidence. I haven't seen a direct response to either my suggested language or the fact that this is a fact and is important in an ongoing way in his life for years and years. I'm a little tired of doing what I'm supposed to do and knocking myself out getting sources just to be ignored or told I'm talking too much. I've got to get away from the computer for a while. More fun tomorrow. Noroton (talk) 00:56, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Encyclopedia not editorial/tabloid

I'm quite distressed by your recent edits to ACORN. It appears that you are inserting and/or restoring highly POV material of no encyclopedic value, for purposes of editorializing against the organization. I'm not really sure if an article RFC or a user RFC would be a better approach; I suppose I'll wait a bit before either. But in any case, this pattern is alarming. LotLE×talk 06:23, 15 July 2008 (UTC)