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Mass speedy deletion of Fellows of the Royal Society

Sean Whitton (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) has been mass deleting articles on scientists (and then removing links to them), unfortunately I am not considered trustworthy enough to actually see what he has deleted. I do note however that they appear to be articles on Fellows of the Royal Society, and that Fellowship of the Royal Society is probably the best indicator of a British or Commonwealth scientist's notability. Please could some admins have a look and reconsider these deletions? I shall inform Sean of this thread. Thank you. DuncanHill (talk) 11:47, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I recently started articles for all living female Fellows of the Royal Society who did not already have pages. I believe I added about 60 new pages. Which seem to have all been deleted.Domminico (talk) 11:56, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

See here for a list of all living female fellows if this is helpful for restoration.Domminico (talk) 12:02, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Given that all the articles that I checked are of the form, for example, '"Patricia Clarke, FRS, is/was a distinguished British scientist", they are not establishing their notability. WP is not a directory of every Fellow of the Royal Society. --Stephen 12:24, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually, the FRS bit does establish notability (or at least it would if Misplaced Pages had any pretence to serious coverage of the sciences). DuncanHill (talk) 12:25, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Absolutely, it's true that all the articles were stubs, but they are exactly stubs that would be interesting if they were expanded. Except for Hon. Fellows (e.g. Margaret Thatcher) every FRS is a distinguished scientist who will have performed notable work. Obviously Misplaced Pages is not a directory for every fellow that's why the articles were stubs - my hope was that people would expand them. Domminico (talk) 12:32, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Notability for people can be established by a notable award. From a quick review, Jean Thomas (scientist) is notable, and the stub should have been expanded rather than deleted. I've restored the page and added a BBC reference, as well as asking Sean reconsider other pages deleted. . . dave souza, talk 12:34, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Fellowship of the Royal Society is a notable award. It's about as distinguished as you can get for a British or Commonwealth scientist bar winning a Nobel Prize/Fields medal.Domminico (talk) 12:36, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

It would help to establish notablity if a reference is given to each page, establishing award of the FRS. . . dave souza, talk 12:40, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough, for every page I added this page establishes FRS. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Domminico (talk • contribs) 12:42, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I have to agree that speedying the lot of them with no discussion was hasty. Shall we just undelete them all now? Consensus, folks? Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 14:17, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I'd undelete them and add a maintenance tag, then if they've not been touched in a month review them. It's false to say that every single FRS is inherently notable - there is no such thing as inherently notable, especially when you consider our policies on WP:V and WP:RS, if there are no non-trivial documents about them then it doesn't matter what level of academic distinction they may have gained, but it's unlikely that any modern FRS will be so obscure as to lack any non-trivial independent sources. Guy (Help!) 15:02, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

No one said they were "inherently notable" they are notable _because_ they are FRS. It is this that qualifies them since they must satisfy at the very least 2 3 and 6 of guidelines to be considered for election in the first place.82.69.91.165 (talk) 15:12, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

(ec) Er... what? FRS's being "inherently notable" means they're notable because of being FRS's. Please see "inherent" in Wictionary. And I agree that they shouldn't have been mass deleted. Please undelete right now, then we can discuss which if any of them should be deleted. It was hasty all right. Bishonen | talk 16:06, 20 July 2008 (UTC).

Being a fellow of the Royal Society does not mean there will be sources and independent analysis we can use. Notability in Misplaced Pages terms means that there are sufficient sources to work from. No sources, no article. Your statement makes no sense: you say they are not inherently notable, they are notable because they are FRS; that is, as I said, an assertion that an FRS is inherently notable. I dispute that. Guy (Help!) 15:48, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Greetings. I would concur with JzG here: I can accept that the scientists may well have been notable (I can't comment either way because I don't know much about this area), but without sources for each one of them their articles then they don't meet Misplaced Pages's version of notability, which is, as said, sufficient sources to write an article from. —Sean Whitton / 16:26, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

They are pretty poor articles but they make an assertion of importance (being an FRS) so should not be speedy deleted. Any which cannot meet the notability guidelines can then be deleted by AFD. Davewild (talk) 16:32, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

When articles do not meet Misplaced Pages's standards, there are two ways of fixing them. One is to fix their deficiencies; a second is to leave them for someone else to fix. Deletion should only be used when the subject is non-notable -- not when the article is poor. And if one does not know much about an area, one is not in a good position to decide whether a subject is non-notable, so option two should be used. These articles should be undeleted so that someone who actually knows about the subjects can decide whether they are notable or not according to WP's standards. -- Derek Ross | Talk 16:44, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Non-of my articles were good. They were close to as bad as it's possible for a WP article to be but nevertheless they were robust to AFD. They were stubs: all are good candidates for informative articles. I'm willing to bet no FRS will get through WP:AFD. If they come to AFD I'm quite sure they'll be improved and found robust. I disagree with Guy that FRS is not sufficient criterion for notability, read WP:Notability (academics).Domminico (talk) 16:53, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Of course they're inherently notable; they must satisfy at least one of the criteria in WP:PROF to be elected. Some will satisfy all six criteria. --Rodhullandemu 17:06, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Dave here. If you start discussing notability and sources it is most likely already not a speedy candidate. Speedy deletion is reserved for articles not asserting any importance and imo being a FRS does that. Whether individual admins think they are notable or not, they all deserve in doubt a discussion and all speedies need to be undone.--Tikiwont (talk) 17:10, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Seems to me that some people need to go back and read the WP:PROF guideline and the WP:N guideline a bit more carefully. Notability is about the existence of adequate sourcing, and Misplaced Pages not being a directory. Of anything, including FRSs. If something is encyclopaedically notable, then there will be multiple non-trivial independent sources. If there aren't, then it isn't. Falling into class X, Y or Z does not make the case even if it is a strong or even universal indicator. Sources, that's what matters. And of course for most of these there will be plenty, so no problem. Guy (Help!) 18:30, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Seems to me that some people need to go back and read the CSD policy. The point isn't about the notability guidelines but about the A7 criterion according to which the article has been deleted which is distinct from questions of verifiability and reliability of sources, and is a lower standard than notability. Besides, I'd proceed as you say above, i.e. undelete, tag, and review which for me just means in case of doubt send to AfD. --Tikiwont (talk) 19:54, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Quite familiar with it, thanks. Foo is a member of bar is context-free and does not assert notability. Foo is a member of bar notable for frob is an assertion of notability. Now, as it happens, I would accept FRS as some kind of assertion of notability despite having read of some FRSs form the 17th and 18th century who are really quite obscure, but I can see how others might dispute that. Guy (Help!) 22:07, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Whether or not these people are considered notable under our policies, the award certainly constitutes an assertion of notability, which is all an article needs to avoid being speedy deleted, as occurred here. -Chunky Rice (talk) 23:19, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, I'm not an admin, but it seems to me there is a consensus for reinstating the articles at the very least for a few weeks with AFD tags. Can an admin do that?Domminico (talk) 19:15, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

As a practical matter, if Domminico is the person who created those articles in the first place, it would be better for him to restore a small number of them and begin work on adding sources to them himself, before restoring all 60. Otherwise he is just dumping a big bunch of work on his fellow editors. There is no point of a mass AfD on 60 articles which are nothing more than directory entries to begin with. EdJohnston (talk) 19:24, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I just restored 30:

• Anne Dell
• Anne O'Garra
• Anne Warner (scientist)
• Athene Donald
• Brigid Hogan
• Brigitte Askonas
• Carol Robinson
• Caroline Dean
• Cheryll Tickle
• Daniela Rhodes
• Elizabeth Warrington
• Enid MacRobbie
• Fiona Watt
• Gillian Bates
• Helen Saibil
• Jan Anderson (scientist)
• Janet Rossant
• Jean Beggs
• Judith Howard
• Linda Partridge
• Mariann Bienz
• Naomi Datta
• Ottoline Leyser
• Patricia Clarke
• Patricia Simpson
• Ruth Lynden-Bell
• Susan Rees
• Trudy Mackay
• Ulrike Tillman
• Veronica Van Heyningen

Did I miss any?

--A. B. 23:16, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Spot-checking a few:

• Anne Dell Google News archive search: 26 hits
• Anne O'Garra Google News archive search: 6 hits
• Athene Donald Google News archive search: 4 hits
• Brigid Hogan Google News archive search: 90 hits
• Brigitte Askonas Google News archive search: 1 hit
• Cheryll Tickle Google News archive search: 16 hits
• Daniela Rhodes Google News archive search: 1 hit
• Elizabeth Warrington Google News archive search: 5 hits

Note that Google Scholar is probably a better measure; nevertheless, if Royal Society Fellowship does not make them notable you're going to find out they all became notable in the course of doing whatever they did to get selected. --A. B. 23:30, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

These deletions should never have occurred.

It took me about a minute to do each of those searches -- isn't the deleting admin supposed to do a 30-second check of notability before deleting? I know I do. Also, I saw no notifications to Domminico, the author. That's not just a courtesy but it also gives feedback to the author, documents for non-admins that this person has a problem with article creations, and, in the event of an admin mistake, shortens the loop in fixing an erroneous deletion. Something else I do is look at the author's contribution log and talk page -- if I see several hundred good, positive edits, then I assume there's a greater chance the author is not making a mistake and I investigate more thoroughly before deleting. --A. B. 23:44, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

There is nothing that requires the deleting admin to check the notability of the article. If the article does not assert notability then it can be deleted. If the article on bread just said "Bread is a food" (assuming the admin hadn't heard of bread and there wasn't an article history to revert to) it could be deleted under A7. The criteria does not specify whether or not the article is notable, only whether it asserts its subject's notability. Thus no google search is required although in cases I'm not sure of I tend to check anyway. James086 10:13, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

An assertion of notability does not need to mean an explicit sentence of the form "Foo is notable for...": it can be a statement about foo that prima facie indicates that foo is likely to be notable. "Fellow of the Royal Society" is a very clear assertion of notability of this type. If the deleting admin is too ignorant to know the implications of being a fellow, and too lazy to find out by doing a brief search, he shouldn't be deleting these kinds of articles. "Speedy" doesn't mean that the deleting admin should take as few seconds as possible to make the decision, it merely means we're avoiding a week-long decision. And by the way, your example betrays another fundamental misunderstanding of A7 deletion: bread is not a person, organization, or web content, and is therefore ineligible. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:14, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Indeed bread is an incorrect example, I should have chosen something like Einstein or Google. I happen to know of the Royal Society so I wouldn't have deleted them without investigating further but to call someone who doesn't know of the RS "ignorant" is a bit of a stretch; I would not expect everyone to be familiar with the various honours within academia. Misplaced Pages:Notability (academics) criteria 6 says that if they have received a notable honour (Fellowship would fall under this) then they are definitely notable. Also these articles are not covered by CSD G4 so they can be freely recreated without discussion. However I stand by my point that it is not the responsibility of the admin to do a 30 second check for notability, only to check for an assertion. James086 12:25, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

• Is it just my impression that we have people just blundering about deleting things they don't fully understand these days? When I was on WP:NPW long ago I'd at least Google if I was unsure. Have we really become that lazy these days? And what happened to WP:SOFIXIT? That I learned from working the Wikification project. --Rodhullandemu 23:56, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

The chance that the Royal Society would grant fellowship to someone who was not notable in the Misplaced Pages sense is approximately zero. (Granted, finding multiple reliable sources on a fellow whose main activity was before the Internet might require a visit to a *gasp* research library.) Also, as mentioned above, all those articles contained a claim to notability (fellow in the Royal Society) and had at least one reliable source (the list of fellows of the Royal Society) just a few mouse clicks away. As far as I know, "kill it before it grows" is not a Misplaced Pages policy. So I suggest restoring all those articles, and waiting for someone to flesh them out.. Cardamon (talk) 00:37, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Great Cheers I'll try and do some fleshing between writing up my thesis... Domminico (talk) 13:25, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

As far as I can read here, it seems there is a strong consensus to undelete all ~60 articles, tag em, and AFD them if sources can't be found after a reasonable time to verify the asserted notability. Have all 60 been undeleted Domminico? I also very much agree with Guy here, we definitely need sources, going forward for these 60, perhaps numerous others, for the articles to remain for any length of time. I'm inclined towards a mild troutslap for the deleting admin for at the very least, not attempting to talk to the article's creator (would have been very easy seeing as they were all created by the same person, not 60 separate talkpage posts). AN could've and should've been avoided. Keeper ǀ 76 22:46, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

• Good deletions, giving people the possibility to feel good about starting an article from scratch by filling a redlink, which is more satisfying than expanding a mostly-worthless substub. Kusma (talk) 08:03, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
• These should not have been deleted; they didn't meet the speedy criteria, because they had an assertion of notability. A mass AfD would have been more appropriate if the articles were thought to be useless. -- SCZenz (talk) 08:11, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
  • It was a good faith deletion of stub articles which lacked sources and were close to being content free, equally stubs aren't discouraged as such. Notifying the author and a mass AfD would have been better, in retrospect, but time constraints make that sort of clearing out difficult enough already. Domminico had a source asserting the notability of the list of names, and if that had been cited in each stub at the outset the stubs would have been referenced, rather than just asserting membeship of a society. From glancing at a couple of examples, that's still to be done. . . dave souza, talk 10:04, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

• • I do assume good faith in this deletion. I however consider it a remarkable example of recklessness. At the very least anyone placing speedy tags should know the basic speedy deletion criteria, including that non-notable A7 means no indication of notability, not lack of references to prove notability, and that stubs are acceptable at Misplaced Pages. Furthermore, anyone even nominating for deletion should be aware of the applicable notability criteria, and this includes that for academics a very notable awards is sufficient evidence of notability. It is, I suppose possible, that the deletor was not aware of the meaning of FRS--but that's why we have an encyclopedia. The reason I consider this worthy of serious attention, is the actions of the admin above -- who actually removed the backlinks from the articles to Royal Society, and other notable awards. This is a clear indication that it was not just an oversight but either carelessness or lack of understanding. I am aware that he is a very experienced admin, and someone with a technical background, so i totally do not understand. Further, he choose to delete in a single motion of his own accord without anyone previously having placed a speedy tag in at least many of the cases--I have not checked all. This once more provides reason why, except for BLP and copyvio and outright vandalism, no admin should be permitted to have that power. I see two responses of his, the first to Domenico, to the effect that "I've ... speedily deleted all of your articles on scientists ... because there was no assertion as to why the scientists are sufficiently notable to warrant articles. I'm no expert in the field, but the articles really were too short to justify their notability so I decided to remove them from the encyclopedia" To delete -- let alone delete single handed, instead of just placing tags-- in an area one admits one does not understand, because the articles were "too short", and in the presence of the indications of notability provided by the backlinks, seems more than careless. It shows the failure to understand SCD A7, that there merely has to be an indication of importance, not a "sufficient" proof that the articles justify inclusion. I see his comment above that "without sources for each one of them their articles then they don't meet Misplaced Pages's version of notability, which is, as said, sufficient sources to write an article from" This shows the failure to understand deletion policy, that importance does not have to be proven to prevent speedy. At the very least it would seem appropriate to expect a full apology to the editor involved and a clearly stated recognition of what the speedy deletion criteria actually are. And in any case, it's time to remove the power for admins to delete single-handed except in the cases I mentioned above--it's too dangerous to the encyclopedia. DGG (talk) 02:18, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I can't believe I didn't see topic this before...deleting these articles was a bad move. Membership in the Royal Society is quite prestigious. An "elected member of the RS" is a de facto assertion of notability on par or greater than just about anything here. DGG is spot on that this is complete misuse, and misunderstanding, of WP:CSD#A7 which only requires a reasonable assertion of notability. {{stub}} tags, maintenance tags, and AfD nominations (if necessary) were the correct course of action. — Scientizzle 02:49, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm lost. Don't all of these meet WP:PROF #6 and therefor are notable? Why is there even a debate? Are we arguing that WP:PROF doesn't play a role here or are we arguing the membership doesn't meet number 6 or something else? It looks like an argument that WP:N trumps WP:PROF even though WP:PROF says otherwise. That seems a bit odd.... Hobit (talk) 03:45, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

There's been a lot of hand waving here to prove that membership in the Royal Society means notability. Does membership in the comparable national sciientific society of every country prove notability, or is the UK "special?" What would be the comparable U.S society affording automatic notability with membership. How about the Romanian Academy of Science when it was headed by Elena Ceauşescu , wife of the dictator? Should there be some forum for deciding which scientific societies afford automatic notability for their members, beyond indignant foot stomping when some members of one are speedily deleted (should have been AFD)? How about other politicized Soviet bloc scientific honorary organizatins? How about Third World national scientific bodies? Edison (talk) 22:38, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

For the States, the United States National Academy of Sciences, and yes, elected members would be notable. Defunct soviet academies? Dunno - none of them have ever had the position or prestige of the Royal Society. Third World academies? Likewise. It's not a matter of the nationality of the academy, rather a matter of the academy's standing in the scientific world, and the requirements for membership. DuncanHill (talk) 22:44, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

The aforesaid Mrs. Ceauşescu was elected an honorary member of the Royal Society of Chemistry (UK) and, according to the Misplaced Pages article Elena Ceauşescu, "She allegedly obtained these awards with money, instead of merit." Maggie Thatcher was also elected a member of the Royal Society (not an "honorary member") as were Churchill, Disraeli, and Attlee. These politicians may be notable in that sphere, but their scientific prowess is doubtful. How many menmberships went to the merely wealthy? Are we to take these politicians and others as automatically notable scientists because they could put FRS after their names? The article on the Royal Society that before the 1820's the members were "gentlemen and amateurs." Would these have automatic notability enough for unquestioned stub Misplaced Pages articles? If there is any automatic presumption of being a notable scientist or mathematician due to RS membership, it would have to be restricted to very recent years. Edison (talk) 22:52, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Royal Society of Chemistry is not the Royal Society. Were Dizzy, Churchill or Attlee ever referred to as FRS? Of course, although not notable for their scientific achievements, they were elected as a result of their highly notable endeavours in other areas - so I do think that the fact of fellowship does indicate notability. Prior to the 1820s, science was largely an activity for gentleman amateurs - one can make a good case for Tom Huxley being the first "professional scientist". DuncanHill (talk) 23:02, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I also think you will find that Dizzy, Churchill, Attlee, and Thatcher were all elected as Fellows - (check on the Society's website) - Honorary Fellowship not having been invented then. DuncanHill (talk) 23:06, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Have just checked - they are all listed as "Fellows" (not honorary members) and their election is listed as being under the former Rule 12. DuncanHill (talk) 23:17, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Duncan. the Royal Society is among the most selective and recognizable academies, as is the US NAS. Other societes don't necessarily have the cache or international impact of these two. Those selected have gained substantial recognition within his/her respective field, therefore, in general, it is an argument of encyclopedic notability to meet WP:BIO/WP:PROF; it's certainly beyond CSD#A7 material. That said, if one of these bios is brought to AfD and there is no substantial sourced information available beyond election to the RS, I would view deletion as a potentially reasonable course of action. — Scientizzle 23:16, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Since my last post, I have created an article about a random name in the U.S. NAS membership list, Albert C. Smith. It is better referenced than the mass-created stubs of RS members, such as Cheryll Tickle, but I could find no clear proof the man would really be considered "notable" under WP:PROF. Not much in Google Books , and no biography at NAS. Is he automatically a "distinguished botanist" as Ms. Tickle is automatically "distinguished" by virtue of the membership?Edison (talk) 23:25, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Given that there is a journal Biographical Memoirs of Fellows of the Royal Society specifically devoted to providing exactly the sort of sources we need for our articles, it seems unlikely that any non-newly-elected now-dead FRS would lack sources. (I previously wrote non-newly-elected but I see from our own article on the journal that it actually publishes obituaries.) Regarding Albert C. Smith, I see no less than five claims of notability in a three-line stub (museum director, society chair, NAS, distinguished for a research specialty, and the "standard author abbreviation" about which I've seen arguments in other AfDs that it confers automatic notability). —David Eppstein (talk) 00:39, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

as there is for NAS. (in both cases, only for deceased members). The one for A C Smith seems not available yet--but I'm going to check further. However, a list of 36 published works is available Worldcat at . There may be more, as it does not include most journal articles. That's enough to indicate notability, as well as to write content about the subject field in which he did he did his research. And that's even without visiting a library. It is inconceivable that anyone would be a member of either society and not be notable. How far this extends to other academies is debatable, but w do tend to avoid national bias. (For the main Soviet academy the relevant group is the full members (academicians), not the candidate members, and I would be prepared to argue that those in the physical sciences and mathematics at least were all notable.) Further, for almost all national academies, the foreign members (however called) are even more noted than the regular members, for such an election is an exceptional honor. DGG (talk) 01:05, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Some of the refs are for a different Albert C. Smith (maybe a son or unrelated person who got a PhD in 1951?)Edison (talk) 02:35, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

This sort of quibbling about whether there may be a few exceptional non-notable FRS's is appropriate for an AfD. It is not appropriate for a speedy deletion decision. If a statement in an article probably indicates notability, but may have some exceptions (and I am not convinced that the examples above really are exceptions to FRS indicating notability, as they are all notable people anyway) then the appropriate step is to take it to an AfD, not to speedy delete it. If you're not sure about some area, don't do speedy deletions in that area. For instance, I rarely handle a7 speedy deletion requests for bands, because I'm not sure I understand the distinction between major and minor label releases; similarly, it is no shame for the deleting admin to be ignorant of the implications of an FRS, but he should have used that ignorance as a reason to let someone else handle the decisions for these articles. —David Eppstein (talk) 23:21, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

It seems clear that many who have been members of the Royal Society do not qualify as "distinguished scientists," including the politicians and the pre-1821 amateurs. Thus each article should cite references to show the person is notable as a scientist, rather than being a mirroring of the membership list. If the article creator does not have a few minutes to do a minimal search for references, such as DGG did above, he should not create the article, and an A7 speedy deletion of unreferenced articles seems appropriate. Edison (talk) 02:31, 24 July 2008 (UTC)(in full pedant mode)

If you were really in full pedant mode, you might have noticed that A7 speedy criteria explicitly state that references are not needed, only an assertion of notability. —David Eppstein (talk) 16:21, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Posting people's uncompleted sandbox into mainspace: okay?

I came across a dispute between Kare Kare (talk · contribs) and AdultSwim (talk · contribs). It comes down to AS having nabbed a very incomplete article draft from KK'S sandbox and posting it in mainspace. KK is (understandably, as the article was not only very incomplete, but an entire section had not been corrected that had been written for a different article), and AS's reaction is not exactly, to say the least, Gracious. I find it at best impolite, at worst dickish, and have told AS so on his talk page. I think it'd be a shame for KK to get disheartened over behavior no sane editor would condone.

Anybody got further comments? Circeus (talk) 18:23, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

GFDL requires attribution. Probably should be speedy deleted as a copyright violation. Just because something is posted on Misplaced Pages doesn't mean it can be copied willy-nilly wherever. --- RockMFR 19:53, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree with RockMFR. Should be deleted per G6 or G11, so that the writer can receive proper attribution. –xeno (talk) 20:00, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I deleted it as an A7, with a link to this discussion. Since the primary author was the one who was irate, A7 is appropriate in this case. Horologium (talk) 20:07, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Clearly you meant G7, and that is what you wrote in the deletion, but then you restored it? –xeno (talk) 20:10, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

He probably meant G7, which is appropriate here, although I could see a case for G11 working as well. Typically, such drafts usually have only one author, so if the author took the material into the mainspace, then it's fine by GFDL concerns, but if multiple people worked on it, a history merge is probably necessary. Sephiroth BCR 20:14, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

(after E/C) Yes G7, and it's been re-deleted. For a moment, I thought I had deleted the wrong article. I verified that it was the correct article and redeleted it. Considering the work that Kare Kare has put into a series of fish articles (witness all of the DYK's on his talk page), it is only right that he receive credit for his work. Horologium (talk)

CSD:G0, "generally doing the right and obvious thing". Guy (Help!) 21:15, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

AS has gotten more and more confrontational ("Being an admin for 1 month and 16 days does not make you the all knowing authority on all issues.") and appears to completely miss the point of GFDL violations. I've given him a 24 hours block. Circeus (talk) 23:00, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Wait, what? Bad block. AS should learn from things like these threads, not through spankingblocking. -- Ned Scott 23:55, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I understand the situation, and I don't really disagree with what happened (the speedy deletion), but it does say on every editing window "If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly or redistributed for profit by others, do not submit it."... All AS would have had to do would have been to mention KK in the edit summary to satisfy the GFDL issues. -- Ned Scott 23:53, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

In theory this could satisfy GFDL attribution requirements, however, rather than listening to people's concerns (not just about the attribution, but about the lack of courtesy involved in making someone else's work "live" before it is ready and without consulting them) he instead tried to justify his actions through wikilawyering, and when that didn't work, resorted to incivility and personal attacks. –xeno (talk) 00:00, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Which certainly wasn't very nice of him at all. -- Ned Scott 00:03, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

To clarify, the block was based on the discussion on AS talkpage: User talk:AdultSwim#Stout whiting. --Amalthea (talk) 23:59, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Which still makes it a bad block. Heated discussion should be defused, not hit with a baseball bat. -- Ned Scott 00:00, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Which is difficult when someone refuses to admit that they may have made a mistake and instead decides to lash out with incivility. –xeno (talk) 00:03, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

He was blunt, cold, and uncaring in responding to KK, but nothing blockable. It wasn't until other people started to pop up and say "we think you should feel bad about this" that he started to get agitated. -- Ned Scott 00:06, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure why that gives him free reign to violate the WP:NPA policy. The original act and his response to it was bad enough; refusing to even consider the fact that maybe he should not have done it and attacking those trying to explain why, even worse. –xeno (talk) 00:10, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Maybe he just doesn't give a fuck. He was cold, he was detached, but he didn't actually do anything wrong. The GFDL argument was just an excuse to delete the page, because we can all think of many ways to fix it without actual deletion. Keep in mind that I agree with the deletion, and I don't think he was right to be rude like he was, but come on people. I sure would be annoyed as hell if you guys came on my talk page and started lawyering about, rather than just saying "hey, that was rude, try to consider thinking about how this person felt" and leaving it at that. You all had good intentions, but that was a bad way to handle the situation. -- Ned Scott 00:20, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

KK tried that. Anyways, I was willing to let the PA's slide, which is why I took my leave of his page, but not the GFDL violations and his treatment of KK, which is why I went there. By the way, from that essay you cited: Using apathy as rationalization for a dickish action is a patent abuse of the live-and-let-live ethos of Don't-give-a-fuckism. seems rather appropriate. –xeno (talk) 00:23, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to make it clear that I'm not defending his actions, I'm trying to put them into a reasonable context. Lets help the situation instead of making it worse. -- Ned Scott 00:29, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

The deletion seems appropriate; unless talking back to admins became a blockable offense somewhere along the line, I don't see anything that calls for a block at this time. Shouldn't you folks have thicker skins than that? – Luna Santin (talk) 00:30, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

eh, like I said, I didn't care about insults. I'd support unblocking if he agreed not to harvest other people's sandboxes. –xeno (talk) 00:31, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not even sure that in itself is an actual issue here. There doesn't even seem to be any lingering issue between AS and KK. KK's last post to AS's talk page was:

"Again i quite realise that it is not "mine", however, i believe that other editors, such as ryan who i have worked with in the past, would rather they posted the words they wrote as opposed to someone else. I do realise after editing here for around a year now that blanking a page does not get rid of it, but there was no information of any quality on them anyway. I very rarely venture into the admin and non article generating side of wikipedia, and couldn't care less about it most of the time. I understand your point of view; it was there on the sandbox, so why shouldn't it be used? I just thought common courtesy existed on wikipedia. I wish to put an end to this discussion, again i know you have done absolutely nothing wrong in terms of policy, i just thought you might use a bit of courtesy. I apologise that i came over quite strongly in my first statements, i am sorry if i was uncivil towards you. Thanks Kare Kare (talk) 04:54, 20 July 2008 (UTC)"

I'm not sure what else we're waiting for. -- Ned Scott 01:10, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I have no problems or issues with AdultSwim, i had intended to chalk this incident up as a lesson learned and presumed it a dead issue. I am heartened to see Circeus picked up on the issue and the article was deleted, but i am done with the whole incident. Thanks to all the admins who looked into the problem. The full stout whiting article should appear in the next day or two, i'm just finishing the article now. Cheers Kare Kare (talk) 01:22, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I'll have the Template:The Trout Barnstar for you when the article is posted. --AdultSwim (talk) 02:39, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

3 comments:

• I detect a faint, if not unanimous, consensus that the block should be overturned. As a completely uninvolved admin, anyone have any serious problem if I unblock early? As a cool-down measure? (for a refreshing change, let's ask about cool-down unblocks at the next RFA)
• If "policy" allows someone to take someone else's work and post it as their own, we should change policy. However, I don't believe it does; I think this did, in fact, violate policy.
• Based on the last two responses above, I propose an immediate IAR sysoping of KK, without the need for an RFA. We need more of that here.

--barneca (talk) 01:41, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Sounds about right to me. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 02:00, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I could be wrong, but my impression is that we're mostly waiting for someone to go ahead and do it, at this point... so I went ahead and did it. AS is unblocked. Should consensus determine I acted in error, take action as needed (I'll be heading offline for a bit, soon, myself). – Luna Santin (talk) 02:24, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I've never been clear what we were supposed to do when faced with personal attacks if block "should never be punitive". In any case, should anybody wish to revert the bock, I won't throw a fit. At least there seems to be constructive discussion on the deeper issues. Circeus (talk) 02:28, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

- Stretch - Now that my talk page has tripled in length, let me state the above comment concerns me. Admins that are unsure of what to do, should probably call in others before blocking. Why thats exactly what the blocking policy states to do when the Admin is involved in the dispute. Look how handy it is, it covers both 'no cool downs' and 'disputes'. Gosh those policy guys were smart. What will they come up with next? Some kind of way to address these issues on a noticeboard? Misplaced Pages:Wikiquette alerts perhaps? Perhaps they may even come up with a Misplaced Pages:New admin schoolfor new and 'unsure' admins. --AdultSwim (talk) 02:34, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi AdultSwim. Please, please let this drop. You did two uncool things. The block may have been an over-reaction to that, although one could reasonably disagree with that. You are now unblocked. I really don't see how being snide is going to help. --barneca (talk) 02:41, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I would, but somewhere down the road some other admin (or even perhaps the same one) who has a dispute with .0001% of my edits will look at my talk page and block log and in spite of policies against such things, will use it as a record to justify another no-warn, cool down, dispute block. Since there can be no vindication of an unblock and wikipedia has no further review of either unblocks or expired blocks, my only requiem is to fully log the issue here for future reference.--AdultSwim (talk) 02:48, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Is there any chance at all that you might have caused this problem, AdultSwim? Hesperian 02:53, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps, but with lesser power comes lesser responsibility. However in the interest of making unnecessary promises beyond the general polices and guidelines that effectively govern and protect us all equally, simply to place the community at ease, let me vow the following:

1. "From now on I will not write off as 'trolling' random comments that call me 'dickish' and then go on to complain of a general lack of 'Graciousness' (Grace v. Dick perhaps?) instead responding to them here with great haste in spite of what ever else I may feel is more important, productive, or less contentious and regardless of how old the issue at hand is or weather it has already been cleared up with the user in question.
2. I will be less knowing of wikipedia policies and suck up what ever comments are posted at my talk page without question.
3. I will click the move button instead of satisfying GFDL requirements through the traditional method, so help me Jimbo" --AdultSwim (talk) 03:06, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Last I checked, the move button was the traditional way of satisfying the GFDL. Mr.Z-man 03:12, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

AS, don't worry about your block log. A lot of us have quite a rap sheet, some deserved, some undeserved. It happens. Rumor has it that if you get more than twenty entries you get a free sandwich at SubWay. -- Ned Scott 03:03, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Take that Jarod. --AdultSwim (talk) 03:08, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

A block is only a big a deal as you want to make it. From what I've seen in the past in threads like this, requesting further review of blocks after they expire, and especially after they are manually undone tends to make things worse, not better. Continuing to complain about a block that was overturned by consensus tends to reflect more poorly on the complainer than the blocker. Mr.Z-man 03:10, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

And what about all the users that don't complain, that don't know how to appeal, that don't know the policies, that don't know how to defend themselves. What do they do? They leave the project, sock, or turn to vandals. And wikipedia is worse off because of it. --AdultSwim (talk) 03:16, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

They're not going to read AN. You are accomplishing nothing for the oppressed masses. Horologium (talk) 03:26, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

That seems like a horrible and ugly block. Quite petty. It was rather punitive and served no preventative purpose. I would urge the admin to apologize. Admins don't realize what a huge consequence their blocks have. As recently happened to me, it's quite discouraging. Beam 03:35, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

It is a good idea to understand the GFDL before you make arrogant pronouncements about it. Here's a primer:

1. Your contributions to Misplaced Pages remain your personal intellectual property. If someone claims you don't own your contributions, they don't know what they are talking about.
2. Your contributions to Misplaced Pages have not been transferred to Misplaced Pages or the Wikimedia Foundation. If someone claims that Misplaced Pages owns your contributions, they don't know what they are talking about.
3. By licensing your contributions under the GFDL, you have neither given up your intellectual property rights, nor transferred them to another party. All you have done is specify a set of conditions under which others are free to use, copy and modify your contributions; one such condition is that your authorship must always be attributed. Anyone who copies your contributions without acknowledging your authorship, or otherwise without complying with the GFDL, has stolen from you in both a legal and moral sense. If someone claims the right to do whatever they want with your contributions, just because you have posted them on Misplaced Pages, they don't know what they are talking about.

Hesperian 03:28, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Well said Hesp. Where were you 12 hours ago? =) –xeno (talk) 05:50, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

He was in Perth,the capital and largest city of the Australian state of Western Australia, and the fourth-largest city in Australia, with a population of 1,554,769 (2007 estimate), shouted Misplaced Pages Brown for no reason. --AdultSwim (talk) 05:59, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh good for you, you know where I live. Which means you probably know who I am too. And you know how to tell me so without breaking the letter of policy. And now I'm supposed to be scared of you and say "Hey everyone, AdultSwim was right after all when he tried to defend his rudeness by hiding behind a license he doesn't understand", right? Bah. Hesperian 06:14, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Calm down, things could be worse. You could have been from Nigger Head, Queensland. Most uncomfortable userbox ever. --AdultSwim (talk) 06:19, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

AdultSwim section break (revised issue)

The more I think about it, the more uncomfortable I am with AdultSwim's Perth comments above, and (yes, I know, groan) I don't think this thread should close yet. I don't know where the info came from, I don't know whether it is common knowledge, but no matter what, I can't think of a legitimate reason to bring it up. I can, however, think of an illegitimate reason to do so; it appears to be some kind of ill-conceived attempt at intimidation. AdultSwim, please show me I'm wrong and give me a different, harmless, believeable reason for doing so. If you can't, then at the risk of further inflaming a situation that many of us wish would go away, I'll have to make you give me the "scary ghost hands" too, and say that further instances of attempts at intimidation will result in another block. I know you feel mistreated by the block, but this is a truly unacceptable way to lash out. -barneca (talk) 12:36, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, just to play the devils advocate, when I read it, I took it as a kind of "lighten the mood" comment rather than a "I know what major metropolitan centre you're from so watch out" idle threat. At least I hope this is how he meant it, even if it wasn't well-received. The person he mentioned it about is in the Australian wikiproject so it's possible the information was found in the project pages somewhere. –xeno (talk) 12:43, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

It doesn't strike you as an extremely creepy kind of humor, then? Even if that info was taken directly from H's user page or something, I don't see how that could be construed as humor. AS had to actually go looking for this information. If everyone else thinks I'm over-reacting, I'll grudgingly drop it, but with at least a caution to not use that kind of "humor" anymore. But calling it humor strikes me as similar to the "my evil twin brother was using my computer" excuse you sometimes hear; it can't be completely disproved, but it smells wrong enough that I don't feel compelled to take it at face value. --barneca (talk) 12:56, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it's appropriate, no. Neither do I think his follow up was. –xeno (talk) 12:58, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Dedent, Oh for the love of Jimbo's Beard. H is a member of Wikipedians of western Australia, 80% of the population lives in or around Perth as its the only major city in the region. Simple statistics state thats where he was or at least associates himself with (as was the question). The response plays to an actual answer to a rhetorical question. (Perhaps the youtube video helps carry the humor inspite of your lack of an ability to laugh.) The second response plays to the old userboxes and the fact that Australia has some really weird geographic locations that no one could imagine having in a place like the United States ('Nigger Head High School?' Home of the fighting ...? ) As far as intimidation by outing let me see what else I can do with statistics, he is a white male, 20 to 30 years old, some college education, owns a computer, spends a lot of time on the internet (most of it at wikipedia), drives a toyota less than 7 years old, complains about the price of petrol, opposed AU involvement in Iraq, watches soccer... ScaryGhostHands:Now everyone put your hands up to chest level, palms out, shake them and say oooooooooooooooooo. As far as 'lashing out', Do I really have to justify my self on every edit on this manufactured issue or are you just digging and needling till you find something blockable? --AdultSwim (talk) 13:37, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Now that I am at a computer where I can see the YouTube video, I'm willing to assume good faith and accept that this wasn't a clumsy intimidation attempt, so while I still think it was somewhat inappropriate, I retract all the talk of blocking, etc, above. I would point out that I was in favor of unblocking AS earlier, so the talk of "just digging and needling till you find something blockable" seems odd. --barneca (talk) 12:38, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Arabic Misplaced Pages

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

please protect this page, A user (his name is Stayfi and was banned several times in ar wikipedia) puts his ideas and thoughts about ar wikipedia in this article thinking that wikipedia is like a blog where anyone can put his thoughts and feelings. thanks --Osm agha (talk) 00:39, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I have deleted the offending (unsourced) material and left a warning for this editor. I don't feel protection is warranted, but if there's any repetition, other steps may become necessary. --Rodhullandemu 03:00, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

...however, I've now fully protected the article while we empty the sock drawer. --Rodhullandemu 05:09, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Thank you --Osm agha (talk) 06:50, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

• Please, any other admin to consider the removing of protection from this article, i'm fully writing it, with evidences to be put today, about its content, but users from the Ar wiki, r here but to prevent facts on it, Mr Rodhullandemu averted me to do so.

Then any admin, can judge my references, Regards. --Stayfi (talk) 13:24, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't feel inclined to unprotect Arabic Misplaced Pages at present due the the flood of apparent sockuppets adding this information, and, who, incidentally, I am about to block. Put your references on the article's Talk page please, and let them be judged for reliability. Thanks. --Rodhullandemu 14:45, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

• hi Rodhull, it's done, nd i hope u'll help it, and refine. regards --Stayfi (talk) 17:24, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

• Hello, I ask, some of the admins here, to remove the protection for the article, Arabic wikipedia, i want to add facts, but we didn't reach a solution with r rodhull, since he isn't able to read arabic, my references are simple, please do take a look at the talk page. Regards. --Stayfi (talk) 19:14, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Nothing to do with my lack of language skills, it's a matter for other editors of Arabic Misplaced Pages to evaluate your sources. Assessing content is not something for admins to do as admins. The page will be unprotected once consensus is reached. --Rodhullandemu 19:22, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

• Eh, which consensus ur talking about, rodhull? the guys (editors in the sunni wikipedia, are telling me, u, that there's no censorship (never been), nd i'm simply replying to them, that, beside restricting its content, about caliphs, nd islamic subjects, even, a biased view toward Israel nd its history, beside this all, i'm telling them, u, that they banned the images of vagina, nd mohamed, just because they r not muslim! but sunnis also (see the persian wiki, wich is more free than the arabic one) so let me add just those facts, nd we'll wait, for a major english study, to be put here, as a reference.

Closing this as no further Admin involvement is necessary. Further discussion should be taken to article's talk page. --Rodhullandemu 20:31, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Sockpuppet Warning

There are two editors ], ] which have already aroused some discomfort amongst the other editors because of their nature of grouping, backing eachother in order to defend a particulat ideology]. They heavily involve in articles about masons ], ], even they edit an opposive natured article ], ] which seems that they create misinformation. And the way they post to me personally not very acceptable ]. I may not know the wikipedian rules profoundly yet I know that this is not a personal forum site and no article page is closed to general criticism and brainstorming]. So they (Blueboar, MSJapan) are suspected sockpuppets and the articles about Freemasonary should be observed more closely. (cantikadam (talk) 09:57, 21 July 2008 (UTC))

(Hey look, he saved me the trouble of having to inform him). Cantikadam is in need of a block. He has made zero main space edits and is clearly here to do nothing more than trolling. See User talk:Cantikadam#AN/I and Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive449#Longterm nonconstructive editor... for warnings, etc. —Wknight94 (talk) 11:47, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Blocked for 24 hours for personal attacks and harassment. This means that I will be declared part of a Masonic conspiracy faster than you can say Jahbulon... LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:49, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Um, no chance that Blueboar and MSJapan are sockpuppets, I'm afraid. As for LessHeard being a part of one of the ubiquitous global Masonic conspiracies, well, duh. He has several barnstars, which are of course architectural symbols, which means he associates himself with building, which is what Freemasons do, and it is his way of covertly communicating his status as a Mason to the almond-eyed greys on the mothership so that they don't mistakenly pick him up for an intrusive physical by one of their unlicensed physicians. How obvious can you be? John Carter (talk) 15:01, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Clearly you are trying to intimidate LessHeard by outing very personal details about him on this page. Your insults of greys who as we all know have olive colored eyes is unacceptable and should be withdrawn. The use of the phrase 'intrusive physical' espouses a dark views and to claim it is humor or satire is reminiscent of <file 'feigning outrage by mentioning random unrelated scenario 47.txt' not found> and is defamatory against both people who perform physicals and those who like intrusive medical procedures by persons who may or may not be medically inclined. Now turn your head and cough. --AdultSwim (talk) 15:10, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I've been set up! The barnstars were awarded to me by other lizards... people, I mean, people! LessHeard vanU (talk) 15:47, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

For those of you keeping count, since the thread on cantik I started here on July 16, he's made fifteen edits: two went here, and the rest were talk and userpage edits (as well as an attempted reversion on my talk page). I realize that the 24 hour block is supposed to be a punitive measure, but so was the earlier warning. Exactly how many unconstructive edits are we going to allow from a given user before an indef for a total lack of contribution to WP?

On an unrelated note, I noticed Beam didn't complain publicly here that cantikadam didn't notify either myself or Blueboar there was a thread about us here on ANI (as he did on the last two threads I posted here). If there's going to be public lambasting, can we at least not have a double standard? MSJapan (talk) 16:08, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, I missed it. My apologies. Beam 16:54, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Can't address why Beam didn't notify you, but Blueboar has been notified now. I also note that as per here Cantikadam doesn't seem to have a single mainspace edit yet, only a comparatively few talk edits that aren't dubious, and a lot of userspace edits. If someone were to propose a community ban on that editor, which anyone can do, I think there's a reasonable chance others might agree to it. John Carter (talk) 16:52, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I would ask, then, that a relatively uninvolved party make the recommendation. MSJapan (talk) 18:22, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Editor in question has been blocked for 24 hours, with notice that if he continues in similar fashion when the block expires, he can expect to be blocked indefinitely. John Carter (talk) 21:28, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Goodness... you leave Misplaced Pages for one day, and suddenly you find yourself accused of being a sockpuppet! Thanks to those who have taken care of this matter. Blueboar (talk) 15:06, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Notification looks like a fine task for a bot. Perhaps even one that can update links for reference after the issue gets archived. I'll look into it over the weekend. --AdultSwim (talk) 16:36, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

User:Guido den Broeder

This user was blocked a couple of weeks ago for legal threats -- importing a dispute with Oscar from the Dutch Misplaced Pages. As far as I am concerned, the block was correct -- people are not allowed to use the English Misplaced Pages to get involved in legal disputes. If they do, they leave until the block is no longer necessary.

I have, however, recently contacted Guido to see if the block is still necessary. He gives a commitment not to refer to or continue in any fashion the dispute with Oscar. I feel this makes the block no longer necessary and am happy to unblock.

Any comments?

Sam Korn 13:32, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

• With such a chequered history as Guido's is there any real chance this last chance could be of worth? Rudget (logs) 13:38, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
  • An indefinite block for violations of WP:NLT becomes a permanent ban? There's been no suggestion that a ban is warranted for anything else. I don't see this as "last chance" but as "situation resolved". Sam Korn 13:42, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
    • Apologies, I didn't mean to write last. Rudget (logs) 13:44, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
• I endorse this, just keep an eye on him/her for a bit, obviously. Tan ǀ 39 13:50, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
• I think he has to officially withdraw the legal threat, no? –xeno (talk) 13:53, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I thought as long as they resolve not to make further threats or discuss... well honestly he didn't really make a clear threat here I thought. I remember reading the original story about the dutch beef coming here, I need a refresher prior to further comment. Beam 14:05, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

He needs to "genuinely and credibly withdraw" the threat. I would gather in some kind of on-wiki fashion. But I could be wrong, I'm just reading from the NLT policy. –xeno (talk) 14:06, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Well I think than Sam Korn needs to be specific on what was said. Beam 14:13, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

With all due respect to Sam Korn, I think it really needs to come on-wiki directly from the blockee. –xeno (talk) 14:17, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

• My position (as the blocking admin, incidentally, but I really have no personal stakes in this) is that a promise not to talk about the legal conflict any further really isn't enough. NLT means not just that we don't talk about legal conflicts, it means that we don't engage in them, while editing. Guido needs to clarify whether he in fact has initiated legal proceedings or whether he still considers doing so; if either of the two is true and he's not prepared to call it all off, he should remain blocked. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:47, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
  • What NLT means is that we don't try to resolve on-wiki disputes through legal means. The point is that this isn't an enwiki conflict -- it's an nlwiki conflict. We don't block for the mere presence of a legal threat to another editor. We block to ensure that the situation is resolved on-wiki. This dispute has nothing to do with enwiki provided that Guido doesn't continue the dispute here. I don't see how continuing the block has any positive effect on the English Misplaced Pages (in fact, I don't see how it has any positive impact for anyone). Sam Korn 16:16, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
    • Let me quote: "If you must take legal action, we cannot prevent you from doing so. However, we require that you do not edit Misplaced Pages until the legal matter has been resolved to ensure that all legal processes happen via proper legal channels." This has been in WP:NLT basically from day one. Now, in principle I might agree to an unblock if Guido promises not to edit Misplaced Pages at all until the legal matter is resolved, but that really seems like splitting hairs. Mangojuice 01:20, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I can roll jive with that reading of it. Make it happen Sam Korn, if Guido wants to that is. Beam 14:50, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

• He should do two things, withdraw the threat, and do so on wiki since this spilled over into en.wiki. — Rlevse • Talk • 16:04, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

• Endorse if the user does withdraw these threats. If they do, then the issue will be resolved. PeterSymonds (talk) 16:11, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

  I think you mean endorse if the user does withdraw the threats...? –xeno (talk) 18:07, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Oops, fixed. Thanks, PeterSymonds (talk) 18:11, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

• Per Fut.Perf, I oppose this unless the legal action has actually come to a complete stop. Promising to keep this off of Misplaced Pages now is a little late. I remember hearing that the WMF legal people had been contacted... I'd like to hear something from them before we unblock. Mangojuice 18:36, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
• Oppose unless all legal threats are fully and officially retracted. This requirement in WP:NLT is very clean, and is there for a reason. MaxSem 19:09, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Clean, yes, but irrelevant. There appears to be no thought to question why the policy exists. This block is achieving precisely nothing and is therefore harmful. "Because policy says so" is an unsatisfactory reason to shoot oneself in the foot. Sam Korn 19:20, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

• Per WP:NLT oppose unblock until Guido den Broeder unequivocally and unreservedly retracts all legal threats, and confirms that no legal proceeding are currently ongoing.  Sandstein  19:23, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

• Endorse unblocking only after Guido den Broeder unequivocally and unreservedly retracts all legal threats, and confirms that no legal proceeding are currently ongoing. Think positive. . . dave souza, talk 21:39, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose unblock until legal threats are retracted. I really don't want to seem like I'm sticking the knife in, but GdeB has a history of tendentious editing on chronic fatigue syndrome and related articles. He also had some problems with conflict of interest on User:Guido den Broeder/ME/CVS Vereniging (now userified) and another organization he is affiliated with - see Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/ME/CVS Vereniging, Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Vereniging Basisinkomen, and Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_comment/Guido_den_Broeder. I'm not sure his return would benefit the encyclopedia, but he has to withdraw the legal threat at the very least. Skinwalker (talk) 22:05, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Comment from Guido

• I have not made a legal threat, ever, anywhere.
• WMF is not involved and will therefore not comment.
• Editing history is irrelevant to WP:NLT.
• WP:NLT does not say 'don't engage in legal action'. What is says is 'don't threaten to'.
• Blocks must have a purpose.
• Note that while en:Misplaced Pages has noticeboards, mediation, reviews, a functioning arbcom, access to designated agents and to an information team, etc., nl:Misplaced Pages has none of this. Guido den Broeder (talk) 22:36, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't know how accurate the first point is (I happen not to speak Dutch), I disagree with the fourth point, but much of the rest is valid, and the final point is, I think, irrelevant, but I don't think any of it presents a convincing reason to keep the block running. Sam Korn 23:17, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I support the unblock on the basis that Guido has clearly stated that no legal action is ongoing regarding en wiki activity, and that he won't engage in any further discussion of any aspect of any external dispute. By my reading, quite a few of the 'oppose's above are actually 'supports' in this light. It is a point of debate whether or not a legal threat was ever made here on en - indeed it might actually be subjective - but the fact that Guido has clearly and firmly committed to no mention of or activity in the legal arena related to en-wiki is great news... I'd thank him for his patience, and Sam for his work in this matter.... cheers, Privatemusings (talk) 23:33, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

• I support unblocking at this point and I basically agree with what Sam has said. The issues raised by Skinwalker probably need to go through dispute resolution but they're not a reason to keep him under a NLT block. Sarah 23:49, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

• Guido shouldn't be unblocked until he can be educated that he is quite incorrect about point #4 above. --Golbez (talk) 23:55, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

if you get the chance, Golbez - could you review my post from yesterday over here - it's my feeling that this is the heart of that particular misunderstanding - I agree it's worth clearing up... cheers, Privatemusings (talk) 00:22, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, well, I do agree that he is wrong when he says "WP:NLT does not say 'don't engage in legal action'. What is says is 'don't threaten to'." NLT says: "If you must take legal action, we cannot prevent you from doing so. However, we require that you do not edit Misplaced Pages until the legal matter has been resolved to ensure that all legal processes happen via proper legal channels." I think Guido should have another read of that and reconsider point 4. I think the policy is clear that you can take action but you can't continue to edit Misplaced Pages until it's resolved. Sarah 02:32, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose unblock unless Guido affirms he is not pursuing legal remedies. In his statement above, he doesn't reveal whether he is still pursuing legal action. His most troublesome sentence (for me) is this one:

WP:NLT does not say 'don't engage in legal action'. What is says is 'don't threaten to'.

He is misreading the plain language of WP:NLT. (How does he want to interpret do not edit Misplaced Pages until the legal matter has been resolved)? He should not be editing Misplaced Pages until he affirms that he is not pursuing legal remedies against the Foundation or against *any* editors on any of the Wikipedias. User:Oscar edits on both en.wiki and nl.wiki. If Guido is planning legal action against Oscar he is planning action against an editor in good standing of the English Misplaced Pages. EdJohnston (talk) 02:28, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

the comments of the arbs, and other users, at the recently rejected arb proceedings are relevant here... it's not clear in my view that your position is current policy. cheers, Privatemusings (talk) 02:42, 22 July 2008 (UTC)I really think that the 'point 4' argument above may be a bit of a distraction.. however it may not be too hard to clear up....

So he doesn't understand a policy... If he isn't pursuing legal action, as he claims not to be, why should that mean he shouldn't be unblocked? Sam Korn 11:10, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Because it leaves things open for him to pursue it in the future and again argue that he is not merely threatening, therefore he cannot be blocked. It's the same reason we ask people who are asking to be unblocked to say that they understand the actions under which they were blocked was wrong. --Golbez (talk) 12:22, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

And also, I don't think that's clear. I think Guido is being careful with his words and he means that he feels he never used a threat of legal action, but this doesn't mean that he never actually took legal action. My understanding is, he has initiated legal action. His inclusion of his mistaken point #4 backs up this interpretation. But we really shouldn't have to be arguing over interpretation -- if he has really done what's required he can easily make a completely clear, unequivocated statement to that fact, at least as a starting point. Mangojuice 14:37, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

• Just establish that he is not engaged in legal action arising from Misplaced Pages editing, and is not threatening to do so. No weasel words, no abstract conditionals, etc. Legal action is not compatible with one's status as a Misplaced Pages editor. Stifle (talk) 11:29, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
• Interesting talk page, especially the latest response. Oppose unblock until..see post right above mine. Garion96 (talk) 14:54, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
• The policy is quite clear to me: Editors engaged in, pursuing, or threatening legal action will be blocked until such actions are withdrawn or confirmed non-existent. No one is asking him to surrender any future right to pursue legal action. Oppose unblock. xeno (talk) 15:41, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
• Having not looked at the policy in some time, my intial response would be that as long as it is not affecting editing here, I would see no problem. My mental image was that NLT existed to ensure an editting environment free from the "T" part, that is to say it was the threatening that was the problem as it created an assymetrical environment. However, the policy is pretty clear, and appears to have widespread support... although I'm not clear on if people are supporting the idea of the current policy (which I'm not) or simply saying that we should follow it as it stands (which I am). This is probably more appropiately placed first on the talk page of NLT then perhaps the V-pump. - brenneman 07:23, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
  • The argument that while it is not acceptable to threaten legal action on Misplaced Pages against fellow Misplaced Pages editors, it is nonetheless OK to actually pursue it, shows a clear need to continue the block. I find it hard to beleive that can have been said in good faith. DGG (talk) 09:42, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

<- in the nicest possible way I think we may be suffering from some less-than-rigourous woolly thinking in places above - with conflation between discussions (and understanding) of current policy, discussions of perceived established practice, and very (very) few people actually swinging by Guido's talk page to ask the questions they feel would clear this up. In a discussion about wikipedia's problems with biographies yesterday, I mentioned that there's a troublesome tendency for folk to find the angle which closes the discussion, without demonstrating any engagement in the meat of the issue/s at hand.. and I'm afraid I sense that occurring (to a lesser degree) here. I would hope that the best thing for admin.s to do in cases like this is to ask 'is there anything I can do to try and help an editor who seems to be willing to be able to continue to contribute?' - the project loses if you don't, and some haven't. Privatemusings (talk) 23:53, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

His most recent comment seems to preclude us asking him whether he is engaged in legal action, nevertheless, per your suggestion, I left a message for him. –xeno (talk) 23:59, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

I really fail to see any reason for Guido to remain blocked. The policy has to do with legal threats. Guido has indicated that he has not made any and no one has brought forth evidence of legal threats, therefore he should be unblocked. We cannot block someone for legal action that regards nl.wp. If he becomes a dick, we can always reblock him. Geoff Plourde (talk) 06:02, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

WP:NLT states that it is required that you do not edit Misplaced Pages until the legal matter has been resolved. This edit (on en.wiki) seems to indicate that there is an unresolved legal matter. –xeno (talk) 12:17, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Wikizlle948 (talk · contribs)

Wikizlle948 (talk · contribs) repeatedly inserts copyrighted images uploaded under various accounts ( ), and has ignored multiple requests to stop, both here on English Wiki and at Commons. The user has also ignored requests to provide reliable sources with edits. --Mosmof (talk) 17:10, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

No uploads here, so we can't do anything about that. Edits, while all wrong, are not blockable offenses or anything like that so I doubt there's anything we can do. Cheers. --lifebaka (talk - contribs) 18:18, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

You may question the adequacy of the warnings (I don't), but surely repetitively mislinking images is a blockable offense. Violation of WP:IUP is blockable, even if the offense is creating a to a legitimate image from an article that isn't permitted to have it, like including a character image to illustrate an actor's biography.
Kww (talk) 18:24, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough that it's disruptive (I need to remember that is a blockable thing), but it looks like nothing short of an indef will stop the guy. It could be done, but it still seems a bit extreme. Blocking for 24 hours to prevent more abuse for right now, but next time take it to WP:ANI, which is where things like this are supposed to go technically. Cheers. --lifebaka (talk - contribs) 19:52, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, that's where I thought I posted this - I got lost on the vast interwebs. Thanks. --Mosmof (talk) 21:31, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

User:MagdelenaDiArco - 2

Despite being blocked, she seems to have immediately created one new account, User:Gianovito and to have started editing with permanently changing UK-based IP addresses (User:78.151.145.115, User:84.13.166.223, User:89.243.39.216 - identical to User:89.242.104.114, who was blocked earlier today), their common focus being the Maltese language talk page and, oddly, banned user User:Giovanni Giove and his various blocked sock puppets that seemed to be her obsession before she was blocked. She is mostly mocking us, as far as I can understand the meaning of her comments to talk pages, where she comments on her own sock puppetry. --Anonymous44 (talk) 21:22, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Per checkuser, MagdelenaDiArco (including those IPs, and User:Fone4My and his sockpuppets) is likely the return of banned user User:Iamandrewrice, and, therefore, any sockpuppets should be reverted and blocked on sight. For the record - and please take this in - Giovanni Giove does not have "various blocked sock puppets", although Magdelena et al would very much like you to think that. I can only speculate what their interest in Giove is. – Steel 23:19, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

It would be helpful if someone would clarify the Giovanni Giove situation. There was a recent checkuser which, in spite of its name, actually implicated Generalmesse rather than Giovanni Giove. The true scoop on Giovanni Giove, a supposed edit warrior in Italian/Croatian nationalist disputes, would be helpful. Both Generalmesse and Giovanni Giove are indef blocked. There are some related SSP reports that can be found via . I think the problem may be that nobody has gone around and tagged the blocked accounts that are supposed to be socks of GG. Maybe there are none? EdJohnston (talk) 19:27, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

The "true scoop" on GG is that he was a belligerent inflammatory Italian nationalist who eventually exhausted the community's patience, but despite several cases launched by well-intentioned editors, not apparently a sockpuppeteer (see last point in this post though).

Generalmesse was entirely unconnected to GG. He was running his own sock farm from somewhere in Australia. So far, there are absolutely no confirmed socks of GG, despite several false alarms since he was banned. In my view, the false alarms have all been hopelessly wide of the mark. It appears he made these remarks Special:Contributions/84.220.68.146 and then disappeared.

Until yesterday, that is, when User:Marco Pagot showed up, the subject of Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets/Giovanni Giove (5th). Marco Pagot, in my very firm view, is GG. How it relates to the other fun and games seen yesterday and previously regarding User:MagdelenaDiArco and others I am unsure. My best guess is a bit of well co-ordinated merrymaking at our expense from a group of users that share the same strong Italian nationalistic POV, namely Andrew Rice in England, Brunodam in the US and GG in Italy. The results of the SSP and the ongoing investigation into the MagdelenaDiArco shenanigans will indeed be interesting. AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 19:45, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Yep, nothing to add to that. Alasdair is spot on. – Steel 20:47, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) Keep an eye out please folks. This incursion of trollishness seems not to have ended just yet. Our magnificent (and, if I may say so, rather fetching in their new uniforms) firefighters seem to have the current blaze under control, but, while the main action was yesterday, we've had this flare up Special:Contributions/Tlilita very recently. Move forward onto your toes, girls and boys, pounce position, that's it, bit of "grrrrr" also helpful.AlasdairGreen27 (talk) 23:23, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Could someone...

please point me to the correct page to report vandalism on other language Wikipedias? (Im guessing somewhere at meta). Thanks. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk ♦ contribs) @ 06:33, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

For reference, the vandalism is on-going here. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk ♦ contribs) @ 06:37, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Are you looking for this? Gary King (talk) 06:58, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Yep! Thanks a lot Gary, its been an interesting day... « Gonzo fan2007 (talk ♦ contribs) @ 07:16, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Australian MPs

http://andrewlanderyou.blogspot.com/2008/07/exclusive-federal-mp-tutored-in-art-of.html

More or less self-explanatory, but the biggest problem is that some bio articles are being replaced with copyrighted articles from the Aussie parliament website. Just a heads-up. Stifle (talk) 13:02, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Largely, situation is, the Australian politics editors are handling it reasonably well, and all edits to date are we believe accounted for, but some articles may not be on our watchlists and may evade detection. If you see an editor making an edit like this or this, or making a seemingly unnecessary page protection request at RFPP, you now know the background situation as to why it may be happening. If you see anything you think we should know about, drop a note at WT:AUSPOL or WP:AWNB where most Australian editors regularly read. Orderinchaos 13:43, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Something to consider is that some of the edits may be valid and by valid editors. Looking through a few of the talk pages, there seems to be a couple of overzealous editors jumping all over the newbies (any of them) and given them a good nibble. This really should stop. Shot info (talk) 01:32, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Discussion on giving accountcreators override-antispoof right

There's a discussion ongoing at WT:ACC regarding giving account creators the ability to override the anti-spoof block during account creation. As far as I can see from a search of the archives, it's never been noted here, so I am leaving this notice. –xeno (talk) 14:32, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

BMD-2 created from content of BMD-1 without following Misplaced Pages:SPLIT#Procedure

Part of the content of BMD-1 article has been split off into BMD-2, but the new edit history never included a GFDL attribution notice. How to fix this? —Michael Z. 2008-07-23 16:09 z

Doesn't look like a split the way it's defined at WP:SPLIT, but the proper action would probably be a null edit with the summary "Split from BMD-1" or "Created from BMD-1". I'll go do that now. --lifebaka (talk - contribs) 16:14, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks very much. —Michael Z. 2008-07-23 16:54 z

"Anvil Media Inc" and its advertising tactics

Just a heads up: Anvil Media Inc (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is a now-blocked role account of an advertising company. In their unblock request, they helpfully pointed me to this article describing how one should advertise one's company and boost site traffic, etc. by writing spam articles so that they resemble real Misplaced Pages articles as closely as possible. Several of their œuvres have already been speedied (not by me), and I think we should watch out for more articles of this type being posted in the next days by people following that article's advice.  Sandstein  21:25, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

It seems this is already being discussed at Misplaced Pages:ANI#User:Anvil Media Inc.  Sandstein  22:04, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Credible author

Hello. A credible authors' reference is being "overrided" by edit-warring. I recently tried to add to the telescope article but this editor seems to think that his opinion overrides a VERY credible author in Mr. Richard Powers. I've been blocked before for edit-warring recently, so I don't want this to be another incident on my record.

Anyway, the other editor seemed to have asked his friend-type editors to form a consensus so I did the same, but another editor said to ask an administrator instead. Al-Haytham, by the clause of Richard Powers, was FUNDAMENTAL to the telescope and the FATHER of optics. By definition, the summary can include him since the radio and electro-magnetic telescopes are derogatory to the average person looking at the article; I wanted to add it to the history section since it looked cleaner. For your information, the other editors' arguement is in respect to "UNDUE" weight or more laughable: that Richard Powers isn't credible enough to constitute a reliable source. Can you help your fellow InternetHero??InternetHero (talk) 21:02, 23 July 2008 (UTC)Can you help your fellow InternetHero??

I think I've got a workable compromise on Telescope done. Try to work it out on the talk page. Any further edit waring, by you or the other parties, will result in me protecting the article and possibly blocking those involved. Cheers. --lifebaka (talk - contribs) 22:27, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Possible admin collusion and conflict of interest?

Greeks and Macedonians? Check. Arguing over a map? Check. Content dispute? Check. —Kurykh 04:09, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

First a disclaimer. I have a very strong POV on a certain politically charged issue discussed on Misplaced Pages. I have no regrets about it and 100% believe I still have the integrity to be factual in my reporting and accept accurate reporting provided by the "other side" (even if I don't like it). I think it is intellectually honest to admit this upfront.

The issue

I feel their might be admin collusion going on with certain articles but because I am relatively new to Misplaced Pages I'm not going to say the article and admins in question. I don't wish to ruin people's reputations on unfounded charges but I think it is important to lodge a record that this would said (in case this isn't my imagination and the problem continues). Any feedback would be appreciated. (incidentally I'm not being blocked... I'm just using this IP to keep the parties in question confidential)

Sequence of events

1. I added several distinct edits over several days to a highly charged political issue... which user 'A' decided to undo in one fell swoop. All the edits I did I believe were factual information related to the article so when they undid the edits.... I also undid them back. I very politely requesting in the edit description for justification for undoing so many edits at once and to review them one-by-one.

2.I then went to user 'A' talk page to politely discuss their revisions. Instead of discussing the points in detail... they deleted me from their talk page.... and user 'A' reported me to admin X... and admin X did the revert back.

3. I am a programmer who could find plenty of ways to proxy my way back but I respected the revert because it was an admin doing so. However, I made a (polite) formal request for admin x for point by point justification for the revision (on their talk page).. which they did not reply back. (been over a week and they've replied to subsequent requests from others)

4. After logging my request with admin X... I when went back to user "a" USER page where I had noticed some material I thought was offensive (a link to a page that showed my country half occupied by their country) and a links to several articles with sensationalist titles that were both factually inaccurate and focuses solely on puttin my ethnic group in a bad light. I didn't remove anything but I asked him (politely) to remove the link to the page that showed my country occupied by his (or I would take it up with admins for arbitration). Instead he apparently made someback channel request to another admin (admin 'Y').. and admin Y accussed my "harassment and trolling".

5. I then went to admin Y talkpage... and to be blunt... accused him back of unfairly harassing me at the whimn of some user without gathering any facts first. I then pointed out (politely) my issues with user X and asked him for a written review of my concerns. Instead this is admin Ys exact reply.

Every sane person with normal adult intelligence can see that your allegations against B.F. are nonsensical. If you can't see that yourself, it's probably no use me trying to explain it to you. I will simply block you if you continue with this topic, for being either a malicious troll or too clueless for rational discussion

Conclusion

I spoke politely to all three... (other than rebutting any rude accusations in like)... I made honest factual edits... I was willing to work with rewordings or discussions as to why someone might feel they were wrong.....and yet I had my edits removed... I was threatened with blocking... my concerns were ignored....and I was even cursed at by an admin?

Now is this just me or is naming calling completely inappropriate for ANY admin of Misplaced Pages? And don't admins also have an obligation to review the complaints of all sides before applying threats of blocking or doing reverts?

To complicate matters further... I've done a little superficial investigation and noticed that both admin x and admin y seem to be focusing on harassing people from my particular ethnic group and have made edits themselves to several articles related to the thorny issue in question (the one's I've seen so far have always been towards the other side). They both also seem to have an ongoing relationship with user A (who shows a much clearer documented agenda against my ethnic group)

So... what am I supposed to think here? I realize I am new here so the kneejerk reaction by other admins might be to protect one's own (and the admins in question might be reading this)... but am not a newbie to the Internet nor do I believe name calling from an admin is appropriate. And when you compound it with everything else I really believe it is possible some admins are abusing their power. What would people advise I do? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.161.239.132 (talk) 01:17, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

The first thing you need to do is to be more specific. What exactly are you talking about? Link to an article? Links to the postings you're quoting from? --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 01:26, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) My first piece of advice would be to stop being coy, and identify yourself and the other editors, so someone can see whether you're yanking our chain, or if you have a legitimate complaint here. Otherwise, I doubt you're going to get anything useful here. If this is theoretical only, we have other things to do. If it isn't theoretical, give names and diffs and article names. --barneca (talk) 01:27, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

This anon (apparently User:Crossthets), is an apparent POV Pusher, evidence below

THIS is what he's talking about. We explained about the "provocative map" to him. I called him a troll because, as I explained, it seemed like trolling and harassment. But it was feigned ignorance. So me and BalkanFucker took the time to explain the map, which should have alleviated all of this anon's concern. But he continued to complain which leads me to believe he is a troll. Please review that talk page section and the "Provocative" map. After I realized that he, at least, didn't think he was trolling we explained it. He still continued to harass. I would like a block if he continues to try to get BF in trouble, it's bullshit. I think it's obvious he's trying to push a POV and was stopped by good editors. Beam 01:41, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

That's the provocative map??? Someone with a high tolerance for irony should explain the purpose of that map to him. --barneca (talk) 01:53, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Please read THIS where I thought he was trolling, fell for it and explained it to him (as did BF), and then he still continued to troll us. Beam 01:57, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

p.s. I assume your little nickname for BalkanFever is an in joke, and isn't incredibly rude... --barneca (talk) 01:55, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Right. Beam 01:57, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Btw, this is the map in context (click the good example at the bottom) that he is trolling and harassing BalkanFucker, and me over. He also, apparently, is claiming that my sexy self, and FutPer are conspiring against him. Beam 01:57, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Okay, and the purpose of this post is...? Any immediate administrator action needed? If not, can we mark this as resolved? The OP made no mention of the article and the post was generally vague and winded. seicer | talk | contribs 02:15, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Sigh... I explained exactly what he was talking about. The user is trolling, and trolling hard apparently. And, as you see below, he won't stop. Something has to be done, about him. Beam 02:34, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

I noticed Beam is already on the defensive is already trying to get me blocked here without even giving me a chance to speak (even though I didn't even bring him up). I would like to note that he too has an ongoing long relationship with balkanfever. (there is currently even an award from balkanfever on Beams user page that says.

I, BalkanFever, award you the Barnstar of Good Humor, for your constant hilarity on my talk page. Keep it up! BalkanFever 11:55, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I also noticed after I posted my intial anon query to this page... this threat was just added to my talkpage by Fut.Per. (the admin who had previously cursed me)

If you engage in further inappropriate behaviour in this area, you may be placed under sanctions including blocks, a revert limitation or an article ban. Thank you. Fut.Per

Considering Futper obviously knows he is one of the parties in question I think his threat was highly inappropriate and does lend credibility to my argument that there is a potential of conflict of interest in this instance. I therefore request that admins that have no history with either Futper and Beam (nor the controversial articles in question) do the arbitrating.

I'm accusing two admins (and possible even someone else) of very very bad behavior and I'm a newb here. I know this will be an uphill battle. I'm going to take the advice of the first two admins to respond to me and provide a precise report. It will take me a few days to write up something more exacting with precise links. It's going to be pretty long. Should I post it here or somewhere else?--Crossthets (talk) 02:26, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

No, because I'm not seeing any issue here. You are blowing this entirely out of context and proportion, and for the amount of legwork you are doing here, it is pretty needless because no administrator will take action. As several have stated above, the issue seems to be over the "provocative map" which was explained to you in detail.

I don't understand this, "I noticed Beam is already on the defensive is already trying to get me blocked here without even giving me a chance to speak." You began the thread with an anonymous post, and then get all hasty when he actually replies? seicer | talk | contribs 02:42, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

As I say on his talk page, if you're going to make a report than do it. Stop trolling BF and others trying to get them "punished." If you actually aren't trolling, please review what has been said on that talk page regarding the map. There is nothing provocative and you constantly misrepresent what BF and I have said, to the point of trolling. Beam 02:36, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

-I will do it but as I said it will take me a few days. I don't want to get tit-for-tat into this right now but to address your points.

A. I have not "trolled" (aka talked) with BF since the incident with Futper.

B. Even though I was anon... I admitted right up front with my initial disclaimer on this page that I have a strong POV on the issues. I don't believe this is a problem as long as I remain factually accurate.

C. The map that you suggest is harmless shows half of Greece occupied by something called "Greater Macedonia". As mentioned....Greece has currently accused FYROM of acts of irredentism.

(one of many many examples) http://history-of-macedonia.com/wordpress/category/fyrom-news/

The US Congress last year even passed a resolution condemning FYROM for failing to meet their UN obligation. Among other things it specifically accused it of (verbatim)

1. "hostile activities or propaganda" against Greece.

2. Whereas the aforementioned acts constitute a breach of FYROM's international obligations deriving from the spirit of the United Nations Interim Accord, which provide that FYROM should abstain from any form of `propaganda' against Greece's historical or cultural heritage;

3. "whereas a television report in recent years showed students in a state-run school in FYROM still being taught that parts of Greece, including Greek Macedonia, are rightfully part of FYROM;

Whereas some textbooks, including the Military Academy textbook published in 2004 by the Military Academy `General Mihailo Apostolski' in the FYROM capital city, contain maps showing that a `Greater Macedonia' extends many miles south into Greece to Mount Olympus and miles east to Mount Pirin in Bulgaria; and (one of my edits that were initially removed incidentally)

(Full text: add colon ':' to end of address bar if link doesn't work) http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c110:S.Res.300:

Considering the third resolution... images like Balkanfever linked to are clearly highly provocative and not in the spirit of the above resolution meant to encourage better relations. When you compound this with his long history of anti-Greek sentiment and current tensions between FYROM and Greece... it hardly seems innocent and appropriate as you suggest. At the very least it was worth a serious discussion.... and certainly not threats of blocking me or futper name calling me insane for bringing the issue up.

As previously mentioned because of the potential conflict of interest (and admins that may be friends with those I am accusing may be possibly biased against Greece.... breaking Misplaced Pages NPOV guidelines) I request this issue be handed to someone with no prior relationship with either Futper and Beam and no relationship to articles related to Macedonia. I thank you for taking the time to review my concerns. --Crossthets (talk) 03:13, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Please stop. You continue to claim that map as something it isn't. It's been explained to you multiple times now. Good luck with your report, but please accept that the map isn't against any particular group of people, as explained to you repeatedly and clearly. Beam 03:17, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

That may very well be your personal interpretation but I can assure you millions of ethic Greek Macedonians would reject your assertions. Users will often have strong POVs but I thought Misplaced Pages admins were supposed to be respectful to all sides and focus on maintaining a polite NPOV? (regardles friendships and personal politics)

I would say your continued brushing off of this issue (even after showing you a US resolution condemning maps showing Greece occupied by FYROM... and my repeated complaints and escalating of this issue) clearly shows you have little interest in respecting the ethnic-Greek Macedonians side here. --Crossthets (talk) 03:37, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

No. You haven't read the explanation, or you're trolling. Beam 03:40, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Crossthets, you have been made aware of possible sanctions against disruptive editors regarding to anything Balkans-related. Your harassment of other users and the witchhunt that has ensued is, quite frankly, getting annoying. Unless you have something that is actionable and within reason -- this coming from an uninvolved administrator -- then nothing can be done. I'll mark this as resolved, and I'll be leaving you a notice to move on -- unless you are willing to bring forth your detailed summary which may take "days." In that case, feel free to reopen it at that time. seicer | talk | contribs 03:41, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Seicer, you claim you are an "uninvolved administrator". Straight question then. Do you have any prior dealings with either Futper or Beam that you have not disclosed to me?

I say this because you are suggesting marking an issue "resolved" have used the words "witchhunt", "harassment;" and "annoying" to describe me.... after TWO prior admins requested me for more details but BEFORE I've had a chance to give them that report? (which I've already said would take a few days).

All I asked for was a fair hearing by someone that doesn't know them or have anything to do with Macedonia article. And if you did know either Futper and Beam and didn't disclose it.... I would like to add you to that list. --Crossthets (talk) 03:59, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Really, that's enough. I asked you to give real names and pages so we could see whether you were yanking our chain or not. You are. You need to drop this issue now. The map does not show what you are claiming, and it is simply not possible that you don't understand this by now. Please feel free to make one, last bitter comment about my unfairness, I will let you have the last word (I'm going to bed now anyway), then I recommend someone block this user if they continue after their one freebie. --barneca (talk) 04:03, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Outside of general communications amongst other editors and administrators on this noticeboard and elsewhere, no, I do not have any direct dealings. So I ask you (for the third time) -- present your case when you are ready -- not days from now. This isn't a noticeboard for inaction or for comments that are not actionable. Bring something more concrete, but this is being marked as resolved until that has happened. seicer | talk | contribs 04:06, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Barneca, you've been very fair till now. It was Seicer who claimed to be uninvolved, called it a "witchhunt", called me "annoying", and wanted to close the issue. I asked him if he had prior undisclosed dealings with Beam and Futper. (to which he has now answered yes) The point being... how can I be expected to get a fair hearing if admins have the appearance of backscratching each other? Have I been rude to anyone? Didn't I originally come at this as an anon?

I feel like the guy reporting their may be a bad cop at the policeman's ball. :(

As I mentioned... the map is only one element in this issue of what I feel might be a case of non-NPOV admins related to Macedonian issue. Hell maybe I'm too sensitive but I can assure you I know far more about Macedonia issues than any admin here. Again, all I want is a fair shot to discuss my beefs with someone uninvolved with the parties and articles in question. I don't think this is unreasonable request given the nature of the problem I am suggesting. If you recall, I did original state I wanted to keep this low key rather than cause a ruckus (in case its me being overly sensitive) but I was specifically requested to provide further details.

I haven't even been given the opportunity to provide that requested report and some are suggesting the discussion should be closed and still others that I should be blocked?

As I said... is it possible just to assign me an uninvolved admin which I can send that report with PRECISE links and references as requested within a few days. I would give it to you this second but it will take hours to prepare and I have other things to do besides Misplaced Pages edits. I promise I won't make a peep about the issue after my report about the issue after has been reviewed and will stick to my edits. (at least now that this is out in the open now and logged... it should be a little incentive to keep everyone honest). Heck.. I'll even apologize to the admins in question if the arbitrator can convince me I'm being too sensitive.

I'm not trying to be unfair here. I just want to be heard and be treated fairly myself --Crossthets (talk) 04:51, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Backlog at...well...everywhere

Hey y'all
Is it just me or are the backlogs right now far worse than usual? There's 151 AfDs needing closing, 34 requested moves in the backlog area, 53 Suspected Sock Puppets, including 35 from over a week ago and 4 from June, a couple dozen Templates for Deletion over a week old, and 92 possible copyright violations. Where is everybody? And more specifically, can at least the stuff from June at WP:SSP be cleaned up? I'd do it myself but, of course, I'm not so equipped...
Thanks much everyone!--CastAStone/ 02:52, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/CastAStone 2 ? ;> (I'll see what I can do about dem backloggen)... –xeno (talk) 02:56, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

If you wait for 8-12 months, I'll help with this backlog. Beam 03:18, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to try to do a few RM's each night to help out; my time has been a bit restricted. CastAStone does have a good point the backlogs which require an experienced eye have been overlooked. Old timers' need to help out, and new admins need to get their feet wet. Keegan 04:14, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

I performed a RM but then I realized that all the links needed to be fixed so, I had to get my bot approved for that and then...well, now it's time for bed =) I'll attack some more moves tommorow. –xeno (talk) 04:17, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

A bot approval for What links here fixes? Good grief :) Keegan 06:03, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Blocked user is editing... how?

Hi, fellow admins. Can anyone explain this?

I thought that I indefinitely blocked User:As1960 here: . He was then able to remove the template from his user page here: . How did he do that? My intention is to block the username.

Incidentally, I believe that the blocked individual has returned as one of the editors of the article Andrew Shulman. - Richard Cavell (talk) 05:56, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Users can edit their own talk pages when blocked. --Golbez (talk) 05:59, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Cold fusion

See also WP:COIN. The long and the short of it is, Pcarbonn (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has written an article in a fringe journal, New Energy Times, openly admitting that he has been pursuing a years-long agenda to skew the article Cold fusion (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) to be more favourable to the fringe views proomoted by that journal, and especially . Example:

"I'm pleased to report that the revised page, resulting from the mediation process, presents the topic as a continuing controversy, not as an example of pathological science. This is a major step forward in the recognition of the new field of condensed matter nuclear science and low-energy nuclear reaction research ... I now have a lot of respect for all paradigm-shifting scientists, like Copernicus, Galileo, Fleischmann and Pons, and the other courageous cold fusion pioneers".

Note:

Few media outlets are paying attention to the subject, and many of the prominent individuals known to New Energy Times who are observing the field are keeping mum though a few observers such as Ron Marshall and Pierre Carbonnelle have tried their best to participate.

Per WP:NPOV, if "few media outlets are paying attention to the subject, and many of the prominent individuals known to New Energy Times who are observing the field are keeping mum" then Misplaced Pages should be right there with them. Not working to fix that problem, as Pierre Carbonelle and Ron Marshall have tried. And try they most assuredly have.

This is a wholly inappropriate use of Misplaced Pages. We are not here to resurrect the reputations of pariah fields, we are here to document them. Pcarbonn and other members of this fringe group have been the major editors of that article for a very long time, and caused it to be demoted from FA status due to POV-pushing.

I have reverted, again, to the FA version. This is reasonably free of the subtle and destructive bias of this group. A friend of mine who was a grad student in one of the labs in which the original Fleischmann-Pons experiments were conducted, and who is still active in academia as a full professor in bio and electrochemistry at an English university, read through the FA version and said he considers it a fair representation of the field. I trust his judgment in a way I don't trust that of Pcarbonn.

This incident is a perfect example of a problem I have pointed out many times: those who seek to promote a fringe view are attracted to Misplaced Pages by its profile. It is massively more important to them to get their POV reflected on Misplaced Pages, tan it is to almost any Wikipedian to stop them. Long-term polite POV-pushing, driving off all those who seek to maintain neutrality, has in this case resulted in an article with which the POV-pushers are very happy, reflecting as it does their fringe view.

As I say, I reverted to the FA version which has the benefit of not having been subject to years of insidious POV-pushing. I also suggest an indefinitet topic ban for Pcarbonn. I do not recall his ever having declared his conflict of interest during the protracted mediation in which he was the main, almost sole at times, participant. He has abused the project, abused the good faith of Seicer and others, and committed a gross violation of WP:NPOV in the service of an off-wiki agenda, using Misplaced Pages to change reality rather than document it. Enough. Guy (Help!) 07:03, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Before I consider your suggestion further, could you provide the link between the author of that piece and the account in question? Sarcasticidealist (talk) 07:09, 24 July 2008 (UTC) Oops, confusion - the link you provided above goes to the wrong article. The user links to the right one from his user page. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 07:12, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

I'd also note that his statement "I have won the battle for cold fusion) (note where "the battle" links to" is completely inappropriate and is about the mostl explicit, if not the most severe, violation of WP:NOTBATTLEGROUND I've ever seen. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 07:23, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

To be clear here, I do not care at all - not even slightly - if they are right or wrong about the field itself, the problem here is the egregious use of Misplaced Pages to try to shape rather than reflect public opinion. Public opinion, as reflected in journals such as Physics Today, is that cold fusion is essentially a joke, and where it is not a joke, the Pons-Fleishmann debacle is sufficiently powerful in the memory that people are very wary indeed of going anywhere near it. Again, Misplaced Pages is not here to fix problems in the real world, and that is what these guys have been trying to do.

More to the point, he "won" by virtue of persistence, because (as usual in such cases) it really matters to him to win, whereas most of the rest have other "battles" to fight and other articles to police. This is a perennial and growing problem. The ones with the itme, energy and determination are the ones with an agenda to promote. Guy (Help!) 07:31, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Where the hell are you getting this from? I read both articles he wrote, and I see no issue here. Someone believes something different from you, so you want to ban them from editing? -- Ned Scott 07:54, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

JzG, why are you bring up a content dispute on AN? This editor believes that they are acting in good faith, and that they are upholding NPOV and are using reliable sources. They might be right or wrong in that belief, but they haven't broken any rule or behavioral guideline. -- Ned Scott 07:47, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Because (if you read it) I am suggesting a sanction. Guy (Help!) 10:21, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

OMG this editor believes that X is accurate, has nothing to personally gain by X being true, but honestly believes it is backed by reliable sources. Now that son of a bitch has the balls to write about it in a journal of like-minded peers. How dare he! -- Ned Scott 08:10, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, we do have a classic case of a single purpose account here. I can't find more than 10 edits by Pcarbonn to any article other than cold fusion, and in the most recent version, I don't see the word pseudoscience at all (last I heard about cold fusion it was in a class dedicated to the identification and investigation of pseudoscientific theories ). And Pcarbonn's writings at New Energy Times, the second of which contains the statement "I hope that the revised Misplaced Pages article will help put a stop to the epidemic of pathological disbelief and that it will help raise the interest of scientists so that prominent scientific journals won't be able to reject articles on the topic "because it does not interest our readers." Certainly, Pcarbonn has been involved in this revision process, which he holds his own views on.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 08:48, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

If you have not found more than 10 edits by me to any article other than cold fusion, you have not looked. No editors have been able to find a post-2000 sources saying that cold fusion is pseudoscience, and a recent RfC on the subject concluded that cold fusion is not pseudoscience. This is a content dispute, nothing else. I have no financial interest, in one form or another, related to cold fusion. I have followed all wikipedia rules, and even have written for the enemy. Pcarbonn (talk) 09:18, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

My goal of "presents the topic as a continuing controversy, not as an example of pathological science" is fully supported by the most notable, reliable review of the field: the 2004 DOE panel. Anybody who wants to present cold fusion as pseudoscience has a hidden agenda (one editor presented himself as the representative of the "average scientific lab" and defended their view, at least as he saw it). The only thing is, this agenda is not supported by reliable secondary sources of the same level as the 2004 DOE (see parity of sources). All this is explained in the paper I wrote for NET, if anybody would care to read it. Pcarbonn (talk) 09:24, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

This is because fringe topics are not published, generally, in main stream scientific journals. This is something I also learned from the course that I took. And I went back through about 2000 of your contributions, and out of the articles, most were related to cold fusion, if not cold fusion itself. A simple Google search shows the differing ideas. A search of the last 20 years of articles in the Journal of Physics gives 24 papers (I did not read them, but they were few). And, also, you mention "the enemy." There shouldn't be talk of enemy and ally on Misplaced Pages unless it's an article about a war, and the RFC. I'm not saying someone's right and someone is wrong here, but a bulk of your contributions (and by bulk I mean well over 90%) are dedicated to cold fusion and related pages.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 09:47, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

And there's nothing wrong with that.. -- Ned Scott 09:49, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

However, it is wrong that this article went from featured to just "good" because of its current content.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 09:52, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

It was promoted in 2004 and demoted in 2006, and there were multiple issues cited at its delisting. It's unfortunate that the article lost it's FA status, but that's a content dispute. Pcarbonn doesn't have a COI here, he just believes there's some truth to cold fusion. It doesn't appear that he's ever tried to hide that fact. Suddenly Guy finds out he wrote an article about the situation and proposes that Pcarbonn be banned from the article. WTF? -- Ned Scott 10:08, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Ryulong, you say "fringe topics are not published, generally, in main stream scientific journals". This statement applies to pseudoscience, not to fringe science topics. They have been several papers on cold fusion in peer-reviewed scientific journals, another proof that it is not pseudoscience. If I'm not mistaken, the google search you propose only provides self-published, unreliable sources, and certainly not at the level of reliability and notability as the 2004 DOE review.

Here is what the ArbComm unanimously said about significant alternative to scientific orthodoxies : "Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view, a fundamental policy, requires fair representation of significant alternatives to scientific orthodoxy. Significant alternatives, in this case, refers to legitimate scientific disagreement, as opposed to pseudoscience." That is what I have defended, only that, and I'll continue to do it. Pcarbonn (talk) 10:26, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Cold fusion appeared well and fairly documented last time I read it, probably thanks largely to Pcarbonn. Now when I glance at it I see a lead with zero citations and zero footnotes. Jzg has blanked the page. See blanking on the types of vandalism. Blanking pages wholesale is not the way Misplaced Pages works. Point out citations that you find questionable, discuss, proceed with dispute resolution if necessary. Don't come here. Don't edit war. Don't blank verifiable research including evidence from the Osaka University, Dep't of Navy, Indian gov't, DOE review, and others.

Some of the concerns raised by Ryulong are difficult to understand "Pcarbonn has been involved in this revision process, which he holds his own views on" -- we all hold our own views on subjects. The people with the strongest views are generally attracted to editing the articles. I fail to see the relevance, and I think there's a major conflation of vested interest with conflict of interest here. Also, the POV pusher thing goes both ways. All of the evidence in favor of cold fusion clearly should be documented: If you can point to specific areas where Pcarbonn has pushed highly questionable references and content, you should be addressing those on the article page, or going to dispute resolution. This sounds like a whole lotta noise and rhetoric. JzG's blanking the page should be reverted as vandalism, if he continues he should be blocked. Since this isn't the place to be discussing the article content, I propose we close this, and it can be continued on the article itself, as it should be -- although perhaps it should be continued, since there's some highly questionable behavior from JzG here.

The FA article is categorized as pseudoscience. There was recently a RfC which overwhelmingly concluded that although cold fusion is fringe science, it is not pseudoscience. So there's no consensus for these actions.

If JzG wishes to proceed with blanking the page, he should try a RfC first. A lot of people have done a lot of work on the page that existed, and most seemed to think it was pretty good. II | (t - c) 10:53, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Is it accurate to say that transitioning Misplaced Pages's article from describing cold fusion in terms of 'fringe pseudo-science' to a 'scientific controversy' was a laborious and sometimes heated process? If so, then I can see no 'rule violation' in saying so. Misplaced Pages is not SUPPOSED to be a battlefield. But, can anyone really say that Cold Fusion wasn't? In 1989 (first DOE review) it would have been perfectly reasonable for Misplaced Pages to describe cold fusion as fringe pseudo-science, but that became less and less true over time and by 2004 about a third of the second DOE review members were saying that they found the evidence for cold fusion convincing or compelling. In 1989 US government funding into cold fusion research was barred because the DOE thought there was nothing to it, but since 2004 it has been allowed... because the DOE now isn't sure whether there is anything to it. Kudos to Pcarbonn (and doubtless others) on successfully updating the encyclopedia to be in line with the current status of the issue. Five years from now we may be rewriting the article again to explain what was really behind the anomalies which caused researchers to think that cold fusion was happening... or the details of how cold fusion was confirmed. Surprise, NPOV isn't a static unchanging animal... and sometimes getting people to accept that things have changed IS a 'battle'. --CBD 11:14, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Well the policy of NPOV is a very static sexy animal. However an actual neutral point of view can change day by day (MINUTE BY MINUTE!) on specific topics. And everyone who saw the Saint stop the evil Russians knows Cold Fusion is real. Beam 11:22, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

The July 2008 version (with 64k of material -- JzG cut it down to a 2004 version with 24k material) doesn't even describe it as a scientific controversy per se. It's pretty neutral; the phenomenon is described more like a strange anomalous curiosity which mainstream physics mainly ignores and can't explain. It's sort of an example of incommensurability between research programmes a la Lakatos – not that "new physics" is really scientific in my mind, but as a layman I have no way of knowing. There seems to be more interest it in abroad, but since we're English, we can't really discuss that as well, only mention it. Of course where there is interest should be mentioned, as it is in the well-referenced version, which is rather careful. In some cases it language could be shifted; for example, in the criticism section on lack of reproducibility, it might be best to start with the 2004 DOE panel's claim that the effects are not replicable rather than the the researchers' claim that there is replicability "at will". Then again, considering the 2 recent positive reviews and reports in peer-reviewed journals, maybe not. What is surprising is that there are very few recent negative reviews in the article. This might be because many of the anti-fringe POV pushers prefer to blank than to do research. If JzG gave the thing a careful read and attempted some research of his own, he could fix these problems; instead he seems intent upon pushing a futile edit-war with no talk page support to make some kind of emotional point. His actions are amazingly irrational and starkly in violation of Misplaced Pages policies for dispute resolution; surely he realizes that 40k of content worked up over 4 years are not going to disappear on his personal whim. II | (t - c) 11:43, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

The July 2008 version is perfect if you are a True Believer, less so if you subscribe to the majority POV. When you say anti-fringe POV pushers, do you mean WP:NPOV-pushers like me and SA, or do you mean those who oppose Pcarbonn and the other fringe POV-pushers? I don't do WP:OR, myself, but thanks for the suggestion.Guy (Help!) 12:08, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

• CBD, what the 2004 DoE review said, and what those who supported cold fusion in some respect said, was that there is some unknown effect but that without getting the basic science right it is pointless to keep repeating the same sometimes-reproducible experiments. The cold fusion mob like to interpret this as "DoE supports cold fusion research", but actually it's "DoE says go away and do the basic science". They have had 18 years to do it, and have not yet come up with a credible mechanism. The scientific community is still waiting, and the general reaction to cold fusion in the scientific community is highly sceptical, which is one reason the cold fusion mob did a Windscale and changed the name to LENR. But the problem remains: those who have the enrgy and determination, are those with a vested interest in the fringe view. That was the problem during dispute resolution, it is the problem now. The New Energy Times mob have successfully rewritten Misplaced Pages to reflect the world as they wish it to e, but the world is not as they wish it to be. Guy (Help!) 12:23, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
  • Guy has related this to a genuine problem, of persistent and polite pov pushing producing misleading articles. This version (not Guy's preferred older version) includes references which are difficult to substantiate, but appear to indicate something which is clearly fringe science. Whether it's pseudoscience is more debatable, and to that extent the older lead appears doubtful to me, but at present the lead section bends over backwards to give credibility to what seems to be a minor unexplained anomaly which is only just detectable. Its proponents still seem to be making wild claims about the potential of this unexplained process for future energy generation. The request for mediation resulted in a draft being introduced for further discussion, and evidently the recent version was considerably watered down from that draft to give more credence to "cold fusion". Not easy to overcome such persistence, unless editors show equal persistence in giving due weight to mainstream views. . . dave souza, talk 12:51, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

• Yes, exactly. For example, the lead describes two literature searches by interested parties in minor journals, thus placing them on a par with Fleischmann and Pons' paper in Nature, one of the highest impact journals in the world, and leading to one of the largest scientific controversies of my lifetime. Sure, Pcarbonn sincerely believes that the tiny group of pro-CF researchers are onto something. Problem is, most of the mainstream not only doesn't believe this, they don't even know they exist. Guy (Help!) 13:50, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not involved with the editing of this article. It seems to me that whether the material inserted by the POV pusher is correct (or rather, plausible) is beside the point. Rather, we have a startling admission of bad faith in editing and unclean hands. It seems to me that in the face of that, the proper steps are:

• 1. Revert the article to the pre-bad-faith version (the FAC version seems like a good starting point.)
• 2. Begin dispute resolution at whatever level is appropriate (RFC, RFArb), and optionally...
• 3. Discuss in this space whether a community (or topic) ban is appropriate

Dithering over the details of the edits is appropriate for a content dispute. This is not a content dispute. This is an editor who has figured out how to game our system, who has done so to great effect, and who is now encouraging others to do so. This is an extraordinary situation, and in my opinion, calls for extraordinary remedies. Nandesuka (talk) 14:32, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

• I agree with Nandesuka. This is not about the topic being fringe science or not, this is about violations of our conflict of interest standards and about treating Misplaced Pages as a battleground. I could well imagine that a topic ban might be an appropriate remedy.  Sandstein  14:46, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
• A revert to the accepted mediation version, which includes most of the content from the Featured Article, is what I suggested on Guy's talk page. seicer | talk | contribs 14:50, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

• Problem: "accepted mediation version" here equates to Pcarbonn's preferred version, since he was responsible for about 90% of the lobbying in the mediation - I was rather busy burying my father at the time, and Pcarbonn somehow forgot to mention that he was setting out to use Misplaced Pages to blaze the trail in rehabilitating the reputation of this fringe field. I'm sure it just slipped his mind. You'll find if you look at that mediation that virtually everybody supporting the more sympathetic view which prevailed, is a single-purpose or agenda account, and they are the ones with all the determination because it is vitally important to them to get their way. Guy (Help!) 15:21, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Further comments should be made cold fusion talk page. This is a bad faith, biased rant by JzG, who apparently hasn't even read the article, nor paid any attention to the thorough discussions ongoing on the article. The article has been constructed collaboratively with several editors, including skeptics. ScienceApologist and several others are heavily involved there balancing things; JzG would be welcome, I'm sure. Pcarbonn has a vested interest -- this is not the same thing as a conflict of interest, which implies financial incentives. Sure, Pcarbonn has an opinion, and feels that the article on cold fusion is now balanced. That doesn't necessarily mean it is balanced, but that is something that JzG should try to fix as an editor, and should be. If one reads BATTLEGROUND, one can see that he is working directly against its principles. Battle ground says this:

Misplaced Pages is not a place to hold grudges, import personal conflicts, or nurture hatred or fear. Making personal battles out of Misplaced Pages discussions goes directly against our policies and goals. Every user is expected to interact with others civilly, calmly, and in a spirit of cooperation. Do not insult, harass, or intimidate those with whom you have a disagreement. Rather, approach the matter intelligently and engage in polite discussion.

Rather than attempting to go to the talk page and gather consensus, JzG suddenly reverts an article 4 years back. That's battleground behavior, pure and simple. Find problem areas, bring them up, discuss, use dispute resolution if necessary. II | (t - c) 15:08, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

From the perspective of article content, the only question that needs to be asked when someone has reverted a page to a prior version is, "Is the restored version better than the more recent version?" The act of reverting, particularly if a revert is back to a FA version, is not necessarily "battleground behavior." I haven't looked into this particular debate. Antelan 15:18, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

The only question is not whether one person (in this case, JzG) thinks it is better, but whether the editors think it is better. JzG went straight in and took it back to 2004, with not a word to the talk page seeing what all the actual article contributors have to say. He reverted again after an anon IP contributor to the article (who I believe is a skeptic of cold fusion) reverted him. That behavior is undeniably shocking, really, and you should really look into things before you comment. The page has seen heavy attention lately. A 2004 FA wouldn't even be a GA today, in many cases, and I think this is one of them. 24k vs. 64k; the "FA" doesn't even have footnotes or parenthetical references. JzG is not our knight of science. This is not a battleground where he fights demons of fringe. He needs to learn to play within the rules and discuss like normal editors. II | (t - c) 15:38, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Reverting to 2004, FA or not, seems retarded. Since 2004 the way mainstream scientists and the US Govt (among others) look at Cold Fusion has changed. The whole idea of Cold Fusion has evolved in 4 years. To revert to 2004 instead of working together in 2008 is lazy, and imAWESOMEo irresponsible. Beam 15:46, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

(ec)Actually, if anything the 'featured article' version seems markedly more friendly to a 'cold fusion is real' viewpoint than the version before the revert. In several places the version from four years ago seems to state cold fusion as an outright fact, barely pausing to note that some dispute it. Also note that I call it a 'featured article' version because it is nowhere remotely close to current FA standards... featured articles were a very different thing four years ago. --CBD 15:47, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Some of what has happened since 2004: the American Chemical Society hosted a 2007 conference on cold fusion, and plans to (or already has) published a book in 2008, and the American Physical Society hosted a conference. The Indian gov't announced that the science appears promising and wants to look into it, an Indian version of Nature ran an article; and a couple people at Osaka University claimed that they have working cold fusion reactor.. I've never edited the article and only read it first a couple weeks ago, so there may be other things, but these are all reliably published. I'm guessing that JzG just didn't know about these things; if he did, then it seems even more ridiculous. That's why it is best to research and think before acting... II | (t - c) 16:00, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to leave the content issue aside for now, though I have an opinion about it. The basic issue is simple: we have an editor whose self-admitted purpose is to use Misplaced Pages to raise the profile and credibility of a fringe/disputed idea. That editor has used mediation as a "battle" in which he successfully wore down opposition, and has gone so far as to brag about it in a niche publication devoted to cold fusion.

This editor should not be editing Misplaced Pages articles on cold fusion. That this is even controversial is disheartening. We have here a very basic and well-documented abuse of Misplaced Pages to promote an off-wiki agenda. I am in full agreement with Sandstein: Pcarbonn should be restricted from editing cold fusion and related articles indefinitely, though at this point I would suggest allowing him to continue contributing to the talk pages. If his proposed changes actually improve the article, they will find support from others. Is there significant opposition to a topic ban from articlespace on cold fusion - based not on which version is "better" but on an abuse of Misplaced Pages to promote an agenda? MastCell  16:53, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

While I agree that dragging an on-Wiki dispute off-Wiki is never a good idea, I think we should primarily consider PCarbonn's on-Wiki contributions to the page and behavior before we start boiling up the tar. PCarbonn has worked diligently and in good faith. I see no reason based on his record to support a topic ban. Ronnotel (talk) 17:03, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Off-wiki agenda? One's agendas cannot be separated into on-wiki and off-wiki categories. You have an agenda to write good medical articles reflecting mainstream science. Pierre has an agenda to make sure that the recent scientific literature on cold fusion is presented. If you look at the purported evidence, he states he believed that his work was necessary and neutral, and that he was aided by the publishing of articles in prestigious peer-reviewed journals. No evidence has been presented that he wore down the opposition into accepting information that doesn't belong on the page. The cold fusion article right now looks fine, with plenty of strong references and a neutral tone. Some less strong references are probably in there, but they can be removed, and they constitute the minority from what I've seen. II | (t - c) 17:13, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Tory Mason

Perhaps there is a revision of this article that should be deleted, the porn actor's real name was at one point revealed and immediatelly removed (and using that name one could get google results even with details like his high school.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.242.48.18 (talk) 14:35, July 24, 2008 (UTC)

 Done. –xeno (talk) 14:42, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Quick request

Could an administrator please delete For a New Liberty so that I can reverse the redirect? I tagged it for speedy two and a half hours ago and haven't got the time to wait around any longer. Spasibo, Skomorokh 15:48, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

 Done, though in the future I suggest you use the first parameter of {{db-move}} to make it easier to tell what you want done. Cheers. --lifebaka (talk - contribs) 15:58, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the swift attention, but I'm afraid Twinkle doesn't support the parameter you suggest. Sincerely, Skomorokh 16:04, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Then ::GASP:: do it without Twinkle. Beam 16:10, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Admin coaching

One of the co-coordinators of Admin Coaching has semi-retired and removed himself from the position. I've said before I feel uncomfortable being the only coordinator. Would anyone else with some experience in the field be interested in helping out? MBisanz 16:24, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Geesh, when was the last time that page was updated? It's almost entirely false. Also, what is the specific role of the coordinator/s? Gwynand | Talk•Contribs 16:27, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Tag as {{historical}} and go back to the old way of letting people find coaches themself? –xeno (talk) 16:30, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Yep! --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 16:31, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Sorry MBis... I know this probably wasn't the feedback you were looking for, but I completely agree with Xeno. The page is not just outdated but otherwise problematic. I don't think we need a new coordinator, or any coordinator, frankly. Gwynand | Talk•Contribs 16:34, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Ouch. (and I agree with xeno too). Keeper ǀ 76 16:40, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, just to clarify, this isn't a dig at you or BM (MB AND BM, how about that), I just don't think there's enough admins participating in ADCO for it to be a well-functioning entity at the moment (as evidenced by the large number of backlogged requests). Much like the LOCE, it's probably better not to get peoples hopes up and instead have them pound the streets looking for a coach themselves. Just mho. –xeno (talk) 16:41, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

What does a co-ordinater actually do? WilyD 16:48, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Matches coachees and coaches. –xeno (talk) 16:50, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

And to further clarify my stance, it looks like most of the effort is in the encouragement of systematic editing in certain areas to increase likelihood of passing an RfA, something that the community appears to be sniffing out regardless of its being done in admin coaching or by the editor themselves. It's resulting in more candidates getting blindsided by negative results in RfAs as coaching, no matter how much people don't want to admit, can't teach maturity or other intangibles, probably the single most impotant qualities of a good admin. Bringing this back to the topic at hand, I'd be quite happy if this program fizzled out and we don't try to keep it going. Gwynand | Talk•Contribs 16:51, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Is the problem the fact that the programme appears to be aimed at getting people to and through an RFA? The mentoring concept behind it is a good one - it's basically an extension of the adoption programme - where it takes those people who have been around long enough to master the basics of editing and contributing, so wouldn't fall under the current adoption scheme, and then takes them "behind the scenes" and shows them how to contribution not just on a content-level, but on a project-level. That's a good thing, surely - the more people participate in XfDs, and the project and community side of things the better. Maybe, then, convert it into more of an adoption scheme for not-so-newbies...? _GB 17:18, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

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